HOF Mistakes Round 25 [Archive]

View Full Version : HOF Mistakes Round 25

AstrosFan

07-22-2009, 10:59 PM

We all have our own definition of what makes a Hall of Famer. And many of us are simply appalled at what we see as terrible selections. I would like to start voting on the mistakes of the Hall of Fame.

Please Read These Rules Before Making Your Selections:

1. This is players only, which means players are to be judged on their playing career first. A player may receive a boost from a voter for other activities (managing, scouting, etc.), but those are only secondary considerations. But of course, do not judge a player solely by his numbers.

2. There are now 229 players in the Hall. I plan on putting a ballot of 25 each round, plus a none of the above option. You may vote for 0-15 players. If you think a player is close, but doesn't belong, and you have room on your ballot, check him as a mistake. A player needs to get 60+% of the vote to be dubbed a mistake. Since there will be much disagreement on who is a mistake, there is no need to limit yourself to the Rube Marquards and George Kellys of the Hall. Again, DO NOT JUST VOTE FOR THE BAD PICKS. VOTE FOR ANYONE YOU PERSONALLY WOULD NOT ELECT TO THE HALL.

3. Please do not be shy. In participating in this project, no one is necessarily advocating the removal of anyone from the Hall. It is just a way to see who we would identify as mistakes made by the various election committees.

4. All players are eligible. Do your best when it comes to players you may have a hard time judging, like Negro Leaguers and 19th century players. You don't have to read an encyclopedia, but at least some research should help.

5. If a player receives less than 5% of the vote as a mistake, he becomes permanently ineligible. No one wants to belabor the point that Willie Mays is not a Hall of Fame mistake.

6. A player must have more than one vote, must have crossed the 20% threshold by his fourth try, and the 50% threshold by his 10th try, else he is dropped, unless he has been gaining noticeable momentum. What constitutes noticeable will be up to me, though I intend to do my best to define it in a way that will appease as many as I can. Think Jim Rice or Bert Blyleven in the real HOF voting.

7. At some point, we will reach a place where we just aren't going to identify any more mistakes. At that point, the project will shut down, and I will list the players alphabetically, and include some statistics for everyone's benefit.

8. Please be careful when voting. I do not have the power to edit ballots, and I do not wish to bother the mods constantly to ask them if they can change things. Because of this, ballots will not be changed, except in the case of honest mistakes. Please contact a mod about this if it happens, but please be very careful when voting, so the moderators do not have to be bothered more than necessary.

9. Please be respectful of other people's choices. Disagreement is natural, but calling those with a different viewpoint narrowminded, ignorant, etc. is unnecessary, and more likely than not untrue.

10. This is probably obvious, but the players are listed alphabetically.

11. Please post your ballot in the thread.

12. Voting is open for one week.

Have fun.

Round 1 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85732)

Round 2 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85918)

Round 3 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86180)

Round 4 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86423)

Round 5 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86826)

Round 6 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87111)

Round 7 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87330)

Round 8 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87606)

Round 9 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87839)

Round 10 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=88081)

Round 11 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=88343)

Round 12 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=88576)

Round 13 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=88817)

Round 14 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89069)

Round 15 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89333)

Round 16 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89769)

Round 17 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89961)

Round 18 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90163)

Round 19 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90357)

Round 20 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90533)

Round 21 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90796)

Round 22 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=91169)

Round 23 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=91360)

Round 24 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=91631)

Voters by Round

Round 1 - 31
Round 2 - 22
Round 3 - 28
Round 4 - 25
Round 5 - 23
Round 6 - 22
Round 7 - 23
Round 8 - 25
Round 9 - 20
Round 10 - 16
Round 11 - 21
Round 12 - 17
Round 13 - 17
Round 14 - 17
Round 15 - 16
Round 16 - 19
Round 17 - 18
Round 18 - 20
Round 19 - 16
Round 20 - 22
Round 21 - 23
Round 22 - 20
Round 23 - 23
Round 24 - 17

Mistakes (37)

Dave Bancroft (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bancrda01.shtml), SS, 1915-30

Chief Bender (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bendech01.shtml), SP, 1903-17, 1925

Jim Bottomley (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bottoji01.shtml), 1B, 1922-37

Jack Chesbro (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/chesbja01.shtml), SP, 1899-1909

Earle Combs (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/combsea01.shtml), CF, 1924-35

Candy Cummings (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cummica01.shtml), SP, 1872-77

Kiki Cuyler (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cuyleki01.shtml), RF, 1921-38

Johnny Evers (http://www.baseball-reference.com/e/eversjo01.shtml), 2B, 1902-17, 1922, 1929

Rick Ferrell (http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/ferreri01.shtml), C, 1929-45, 1947

Chick Hafey (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hafeych01.shtml), LF, 1924-35, 1937

Jesse Haines (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/haineje01.shtml), SP, 1918, 1920-37

Harry Hooper (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hoopeha01.shtml), RF, 1909-25

Waite Hoyt (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hoytwa01.shtml), SP, 1918-38

Catfish Hunter (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hunteca01.shtml), SP, 1965-79

Travis Jackson (http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jackstr01.shtml), SS, 1922-36

Judy Johnson (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&pid=7030&bid=693), 3B, 1918-37

George Kell (http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kellge01.shtml), 3B, 1943-57

George Kelly (http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kellyge01.shtml), 1B, 1915-17, 1919-30, 1932

Chuck Klein (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kleinch01.shtml?redir), RF, 1928-44

Tony Lazzeri (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/lazzeto01.shtml), 2B, 1926-39

Freddie Lindstrom (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/lindsfr01.shtml), 3B, 1924-36

Ernie Lombardi (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lombaer01.shtml), C, 1931-47

Heinie Manush (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/manushe01.shtml), RF, 1923-39

Rube Marquard (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/marquru01.shtml), SP, 1908-25

Bill Mazeroski (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mazerbi01.shtml), 2B, 1956-72

Tommy McCarthy (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mccarto01.shtml), RF, 1884-96

Herb Pennock (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/pennohe01.shtml?redir), SP, 1912-17, 1919-34

Jim Rice (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/riceji01.shtml), LF, 1974-89

Phil Rizzuto (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rizzuph01.shtml), SS, 1941-42, 1946-56

Ray Schalk (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/schalra01.shtml?redir), C, 1912-29

Red Schoendienst (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/schoere01.shtml), 2B, 1945-63

Bruce Sutter (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/suttebr01.shtml), RP, 1976-86, 1988

Ben Taylor (http://coe.ksu.edu/nlbemuseum/history/players/taylor.html), 1B, 1908-35, 1938-41

Joe Tinker (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tinkejo01.shtml), SS, 1902-16

Lloyd Waner (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/wanerll01.shtml), CF, 1927-42, 1944-45

Mickey Welch (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/welchmi01.shtml), SP, 1880-92

Ross Youngs (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/y/youngro01.shtml), RF, 1917-26

AstrosFan

07-22-2009, 11:09 PM

Everybody.

STLCards2

07-22-2009, 11:15 PM

AstrosFan

07-22-2009, 11:23 PM

STLCards2

07-22-2009, 11:26 PM

No one is questioning Wallace's career value. The problem is that he never had a Hall of Fame caliber season. His peak isn't the least bit impressive. To be a Hall of Famer, a player should play at that level, and Wallace never did.

Smith as Wallace at 8 WAR in 1901, and 4 other season over 5. Not a huge peak, but enough for me connected to the career value.

jjpm74

07-22-2009, 11:29 PM

I thought this project ended last round.

My ballot:

none of the above

AstrosFan

07-22-2009, 11:30 PM

Looking at the WAR database extensively: Willis has a borderline 50 offensive djusted WAR. He does have four seasons over 7, which qualifies as a very strong peak. I would have to vote him in...barely.

I have also chaged my tune on Wallace, as I did not realize he had 5 career pitching WAR - which brings his total to 65. Even with LQ issues, this is well into HOF range.

I would love to know where you get "four seasons over 7 (WAR)." Wallace's high is 8.1, which I think generous, and his next highest are 5.6, 5.5, 5.1, and 4.9.

STLCards2

07-22-2009, 11:31 PM

I would love to know where you get "four seasons over 7 (WAR)." Wallace's high is 8.1, which I think generous, and his next highest are 5.6, 5.5, 5.1, and 4.9.

I meant "5". Sorry.

AstrosFan

07-22-2009, 11:38 PM

Smith as Wallace at 8 WAR in 1901, and 4 other season over 5. Not a huge peak, but enough for me connected to the career value.

Yes, that's true. Wallace did not have a huge peak. Or a big peak. Or a peak that shows any indication of a Hall of Famer. He was consistent, but nothing more than good.

AstrosFan

07-22-2009, 11:39 PM

I thought this project ended last round.

My ballot:

none of the above

I would have thought so too if I weren't the thread master. I just blanked on it.

STLCards2

07-22-2009, 11:40 PM

Here's my take. If a guys is around borderline in career value, then the lack of peak is pretty obvious and is definitely reason to toss him out. However, 65 WAR is not even close to bordelrine career value. That is a level of career value that a lack of a great peak will not bring him down enough for me. I wouldn't shed any tears for him, however.

jjpm74

07-22-2009, 11:52 PM

I would have thought so too if I weren't the thread master. I just blanked on it.

Either way, if Hack Wilson gets dumped this round, it will be because of a lack of participation. There was minimal participation and no discussion last round.

AstrosFan

07-23-2009, 02:02 AM

Either way, if Hack Wilson gets dumped this round, it will be because of a lack of participation. There was minimal participation and no discussion last round.

Wrong. Wilson could get dumped even with great participation and discussion. His case is not dependent on apathy.

PVNICK

07-23-2009, 06:00 AM

jalbright

07-23-2009, 02:52 PM

None of the above

nerfan

07-23-2009, 02:56 PM

I voted all three.

AstrosFan

07-23-2009, 06:21 PM

Hack Wilson is only in because of the RBI record. If Greenberg or Gehrig had a few more RBI later on in the decade he's hot in the hall. 6-7 years as a starter and abosultely nothing else with stats that are inflated by the era. If he belongs then why not Klu, Mattingly, Dale Murphy, or even Maris or perhaps even guys like Bichette and Castilla who have very good numbers on the surface? And no defensive reputation to speak of? He is the Riggs Stephenson of the RBIs world.

It isn't just that there are players outside the Hall that are better than Wilson; it's that there are players better than him who are outside and aren't even seriously considered for the Hall of Fame by most. He has no business being in.

nerfan

07-23-2009, 07:15 PM

It isn't just that there are players outside the Hall that are better than Wilson; it's that there are players better than him who are outside and aren't even seriously considered for the Hall of Fame by most. He has no business being in.

Wally Berger, anyone?

AstrosFan

07-24-2009, 12:50 PM

Wally Berger, anyone?

Right. And it doesn't even have to be another center fielder, though that does make comparison easier.

AstrosFan

07-25-2009, 04:13 PM

I'm not sure if he just figured out how to take advantage of Wrigley or what, but Wilson's home/away splits for 1929 and 1930 are huge. Much bigger than the park effect. He tended to be fairly close to average before that in full or close to full seasons. A little below, actually. But in 1929 and 1930, he hit a lot better at home. How might this impact one's voting?

Also, we're about done, so we need help getting some votes in here. I'd like to finish on a strong note.

Jsquared83

07-26-2009, 11:19 AM

Just Wilson

AstrosFan

07-27-2009, 01:46 PM

Bump. With interest waning, I may end it after this round. But I would like to see more votes. We need to close it out well.

AstrosFan

07-27-2009, 04:19 PM

Wilson has surged this round. We're low on voters, but he seems to me well ahead of his pace in previous rounds. It makes me wonder if there has been an overall change in view of the greatness of his peak, of the importance of career value, or if the voters so far represent a different baseball philosophy than what we would finish with before. Probably a combination of the three, as well as some elements I may be missing.

jalbright

07-27-2009, 06:05 PM

Has Wilson gotten new voters, or is it simply because the ones who don't think he's a mistake haven't voted? In small samples like this, who has and has not (yet) voted can make a big difference.

jjpm74

07-27-2009, 07:06 PM

Has Wilson gotten new voters, or is it simply because the ones who don't think he's a mistake haven't voted? In small samples like this, who has and has not (yet) voted can make a big difference.

3 of the 6 who voted none of the above in the last round have yet to vote in this round.

jalbright

07-28-2009, 08:25 AM

3 of the 6 who voted none of the above in the last round have yet to vote in this round.

That suggests Wilson may have gotten another vote or two as a mistaken selection, which I guess qualifies as movement toward election--but not dramatic movement.

AstrosFan

07-28-2009, 12:09 PM

When I said change in philosophy, I meant for that to include both change in the personal opinions of individual voters, and the difference between the collective view of the sample of voters we have now versus previous rounds Wilson has been involved in. If the surge is impacted by a lack of votes from Wilson defenders, then that would fall into the latter category.

Tyrus4189Cobb

07-28-2009, 08:02 PM

brett

07-28-2009, 08:45 PM

I only voted on Wallace. Willis and Wilson were too solid of players for me to skip them out. They didn't play long, but I'd rather have a good player giving me strong support for a decade as opposed to an above average player who plays for a long time but does fair. I don't see anything special about Wallace.

Wilson got the most votes and I'm surprised. Maybe I'm just too cliché of a fan. I take into consideration his 191 RBI season and make sure not to overrate it. Otherwise, he's in for me.

Its not just a low game total, its 1300 games. In fact, as much as I do not like Jim Rice for the hall of fame (ie not at all) he had a 137 OPS+ for 1300+ games.

Except for a few guys with 19th century schedules, the only guys with fewer games in the hall among position players are:

Roy Campanella
Chick Hafey

Campanella has other years, and Hafey is on most people's do not belong list.

Greenberg, Jackie Robinson and Buck Ewing are a few others with around 1300 games.

Tyrus4189Cobb

07-29-2009, 02:13 PM

Its not just a low game total, its 1300 games. In fact, as much as I do not like Jim Rice for the hall of fame (ie not at all) he had a 137 OPS+ for 1300+ games.

Except for a few guys with 19th century schedules, the only guys with fewer games in the hall among position players are:

Roy Campanella
Chick Hafey

Campanella has other years, and Hafey is on most people's do not belong list.

Greenberg, Jackie Robinson and Buck Ewing are a few others with around 1300 games.

But Wilson was a solid player for those games. We put Koufax in the Hall, yes? He's in mostly for 1962-1966. Wilson's peak is less impressive, but it's the same idea.

AstrosFan

07-30-2009, 11:51 AM

I'm happy to say we made it to 20 votes. Sure, I would have preferred more. Who wouldn't? But it was an improvement on last round.

First Last Votes Possible Pct Mistake? Stay
Bobby Wallace 6 20 30.00% N N
Vic Willis 7 20 35.00% N N
Hack Wilson 13 20 65.00% Y N

Wilson made it in with a no vote to spare, meaning if he had gone 13 for 21, he'd still be in.

With everyone seemingly tired of the project, and with both Wallace and Willis at 35% or below, I believe it makes sense to stop the project here.

AstrosFan

07-30-2009, 11:55 AM

But Wilson was a solid player for those games. We put Koufax in the Hall, yes? He's in mostly for 1962-1966. Wilson's peak is less impressive, but it's the same idea.

Would you vote in Wally Berger? With defense considered, he had a better career and better peak than Wilson.