BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1955

[Ace Venom]

PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING!

Format and Rules
Voting Rules: Voters may vote for between 0-15 candidates. Votes will be made public, and voters are encouraged to post their ballots in the thread and not view results before voting. PLEASE LIMIT YOUR BALLOT TO 15 VOTES AT MOST. EXCESS VOTES MAY RESULT IN YOUR BALLOT BEING DISQUALIFIED.
-Blank Ballots: A "None of the Above" option is available if you believe no one is worthy and you wish to submit a blank ballot. This option is not to be taken lightly and it is strongly urged that it be used only after the utmost consideration, as non-votes carry great weight. Additionally, if using this option, please post your rationale.

Voting Criteria: Players are to be evaluated within the context of the era in which they played and the history of the game to that point. Players are not to be held to standards that would materialize at a time beyond the year of the current election. Modern statistical analysis is permitted but must be applied strictly within historical context not to go beyond the year of the current election. Players are to be judged based solely on their playing careers. Other, non-playing contributions may be considered to the extent that they coincided with a player's playing career (such as a player/manager).

Thoughtfulness and Editing Ballots: Please review and thoughtfully consider the candidates before voting, and make sure you have accurately filled out your ballot before submitting. Requests for editing ballots after the fact will generally not be honored. Exceptions might be made if a voter accidentally voted for the wrong player or accidentally went over the voting limit (but I strongly encourage you to do your best to prevent either from happening).

Required Support: Players receiving at least 75% support in an election will be elected. Players need at least 5% support to appear on the next ballot.

Player Eligibility: Players eligible for an election will have last played at least 5 years prior to the election year and have appeared in at least 10 Major League seasons. If a player appeared in less than 10 seasons, he may still be eligible if he had a minimum of 3000 PAs or 1500 IP, though extra scrutiny will be applied. Players will remain on the ballot for 15 years, provided they continue to receive at least 5% of the vote, at which point they will become indefinitely eligible for periodic elections conducted by the Veterans Committee.
- Age Exception: For players 40 or older, they will become eligible the later of either 5 years after their last year of continuous play, or their first inactive year at age 45 or older.
- Death Exception: For players who meet the criteria for consideration, but die before their first year of eligibility can have the five year waiting period waived and placed on the ballot the year of death.

Election Period: Elections will close exactly one week after starting. The next election might not commence for another day or two.

Conduct Policy: Every vote is a voter's opinion on who should be elected to the Hall of Fame. It is our responsibility as voters to be respectful towards each other. Personal attacks should not be tolerated and you should notify a moderator rather than allowing an argument to escalate and further derail discussion of the candidates.

1955 Guide
There are 32 candidates on the 1955 ballot - 21 holdovers and 11 first timers. First time eligible players last played in 1950 (unless qualifying under the age or death rule) or were omitted on the ballot in previous years.

Newly Eligible (11)
Luke Appling
Joe Gordon
Harry Gumbert
Frankie Gustine
Tommy Henrich
Kirby Higbe
Ken Keltner
Eddie Lake
Eddie Miller
Bucky Walters
Roy Weatherly

Holdovers (21)
Player Year of Eligibility Previous Support High Support Low Support
Wally Berger 11th 43.75% 53.85% (1947) 38.24% (1950)
Jim Bottomley 14th 18.75% 28.00% (1949) 12.90% (1952)
Tommy Bridges 5th 43.75% 43.75% (1954) 22.58% (1952)
Kiki Cuyler 13th 34.38% 55.17% (1945) 33.33% (1946)
Paul Derringer 5th 6.25% 8.82% (1953) 5.71% (1951)
Rick Ferrell 6th 12.50% 12.50% (1954) 8.57% (1951)
Wes Ferrell 10th 68.75% 68.75% (1954) 50.00% (1950)
Augie Galan 2nd 6.25% 6.25% (1954) 6.25% (1954)
Lefty Gomez 8th 62.50% 62.50% (1954) 38.46 (1948)
Babe Herman 14th 9.38% 20.00% (1943) 6.45% (1952)
Bob Johnson 6th 46.88% 47.06% (1953) 26.47% (1950)
Chuck Klein 7th 37.50% 45.71% (1951) 37.50% (1954)
Tony Lazzeri 11th 34.38% 37.93% (1945) 20.59% (1953)
Ernie Lombardi 4th 40.63% 40.63% (1954) 32.26% (1952)
Heinie Manush 11th 18.75% 34.48% (1945) 18.75% (1954)
Buddy Myer 10th 12.50% 20.59% (1953) 11.11% (1946)
Cecil Travis 4th 6.25% 11.76% (1953) 6.25% (1954)
Hal Trosky 6th 6.25% 14.29% (1951) 5.88% (1953)
Dixie Walker 2nd 9.38% 9.38% (1954) 9.38% (1954)
Lloyd Waner 6th 6.25% 11.76% (1950) 5.88% (1953)
Lon Warneke 6th 12.50% 14.29% (1951) 8.82% (1950)

Holdovers Dropped From Last Election (4)
Player Reason Years on Ballot High Support Low Support
Dick Bartell Lack of Support 4 11.43% (1951) 3.13% (1954)
Earle Combs End of Eligibility 15 24.14% (1945) 6.45% (1952)
Pepper Martin Lack of Support 6 12.00% (1949) 3.13% (1954)
Rudy York Lack of Support 2 5.88% (1953) 3.13% (1954)


Last Year of Eligibility (0)
Player High Support


Penultimate Year of Eligibility (2)
Player High Support
Jim Bottomley 28.00% (1949)
Babe Herman 20.00% (1943)


Holdovers Receiving At Least 50% in Previous Election (2)
Player Previous Support Years with At Least 50% Support
Wes Ferrell 68.75% 9
Lefty Gomez 62.50% 4

Hall of Famers - 163
A total of 161 players and contributors have been elected to the BBF Progressive Hall of Fame.

Hall of Fame Players Wing
Players Elected - 142
Player Year Elected Election Percentage Years on Ballot Position Primary Team Active Years Total Seasons Living/Deceased Age at Election
Pete Alexander 1935 93.94% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1911-1930 20 Deceased (1887-1950) 48
Cap Anson 1902 100% 1 First Base Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1871-1897 27 Deceased (1852-1922) 50
Earl Averill 1947 82.14% 2 Center Field Cleveland Indians (AL) 1929-1941 13 Living - Age 53 45
Frank Baker 1927 96.43% 1 Third Base Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1908-1914, 1916-1919, 1921-1922 13 Living - Age 67 41
Ross Barnes^ 1911 76.00% 11 Second Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879, 1881 9 Deceased (1850-1915) 61
Jake Beckley 1917 76.00% 6 First Base Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1887-1907 20 Deceased (1867-1918) 50
John Beckwith*` 1947 (VC) 91.67% VC Third Base Chicago Giants (NNL) 1916-1938 19 Living - Age 53 45
James Bell 1952 (VC) 100% VC Center Field Pittsburgh crawfords (NNL) 1922-1946 25 Living - Age 52 49
Charlie Bennett 1907 75.00% 7 Catcher Detroit Wolverines (NL) 1878, 1880-1893 15 Deceased (1854-1927) 53
Roger Bresnahan 1925 79.17% 6 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1897, 1900-1915 17 Deceased (1879-1944) 46
Dan Brouthers 1901 90.00% 1 First Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1896, 1904 18 Deceased (1858-1932) 50
Mordecai Brown 1921 96.77% 1 Pitcher Chicago Cubs (NL) 1903-1916 14 Deceased (1876-1948) 45
Pete Browning 1909 77.27% 9 Left Field/Center Field Louisville Colonels (NL/AA) 1882-1894 13 Deceased (1861-1905) Deceased
Jesse Burkett 1910 92.00% 1 Left Field Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1890-1895 16 Deceased (1868-1953) 42
Max Carey 1934 82.14% 1 Center Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1910-1929 20 Living - Age 65 44
Bob Caruthers 1909 77.27% 9 Pitcher/Right Field St. Louis Browns (Cardinals) (NL/AA) 1884-1893 10 Deceased (1864-1911) 45
Frank Chance 1932 83.33% 14 First Base Chicago Cubs (NL) 1898-1914 17 Deceased (1876-1924) Deceased
Oscar Charleston*` 1947 (VC) 91.67% VC Center Field Indianapolis ABCs (I/NNL) 1915-1941 27 Deceased (1896-1954) 51
Cupid Childs 1920 76.92% 15 Second Base Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1888, 1890-1901 13 Deceased (1867-1912) Deceased
Fred Clarke 1917 88.00% 1 Left Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1894-1915 21 Living - Age 85 45
John Clarkson 1901 90.00% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1882, 1884-1894 12 Deceased (1861-1909) 40
Ty Cobb 1933 96.55% 1 Center Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1905-1928 24 Living - Age 69 47
Mickey Cochrane 1942 89.19% 1 Catcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1925-1937 13 Living - Age 51 38
Eddie Collins 1935 96.67% 1 Second Base Chicago White Sox (AL) 1906-1930 25 Deceased (1887-1951) 48
Jimmy Collins 1913 82.61% 1 Third Base Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1895-1908 14 Deceased (1870-1943) 43
Roger Connor 1902 79.17% 1 First Base New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Deceased (1857-1931) 45
Andy Cooper*` 1947 (VC) 83.33% VC Pitcher Kansas City Monarchs (NNL/NAL) 1920-1941 22 Deceased (1898-1941) Deceased
Wilbur Cooper* 1950 (VC) 75.00% VC Pitcher Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1912-1926 15 Living - Age 63 58
Stan Coveleski 1934 89.29% 2 Pitcher Cleveland Indians (AL) 1912, 1916-1928 14 Living - Age 66 45
Sam Crawford 1922 92.86% 1 Right Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1899-1917 19 Living - Age 75 41
Joe Cronin 1950 88.24% 1 Shortstop Boston Red Sox (AL) 1926-1945 20 Living - Age 49 44
Bill Dahlen 1916 88.00% 1 Shortstop Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1891-1911 21 Deceased (1870-1950) 46
George Davis 1914 84.62% 1 Shortstop New York Giants (NL) 1890-1909 20 Deceased (1870-1940) 44
Ed Delahanty 1908 96.00% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1903 16 Deceased (1867-1903) Deceased
Dizzy Dean 1948 80.77% 3 Pitcher St. Louis Cardinals (NL) 1930, 1932-1941, 1947 12 Living - Age 46 38
Bill Dickey 1951 94.29% 1 Catcher New York Yankees (AL) 1928-1943, 1946 17 Living - Age 48 44
Martin Dihigo*` 1952 (VC) 100% VC Second Base/Pitcher Cuban Stars (East) (ANL/I) 1923-1945 23 Living - Age 49 46
Larry Doyle 1926 76.00% 2 Second Base New York Giants (NL) 1907-1920 14 Living - Age 69 40
Hugh Duffy 1918 75.00% 8 Center Field/Outfield Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1888-1891, 1904-1906 17 Deceased (1866-1954) 52
Buck Ewing 1902 83.33% 1 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Deceased (1859-1906) 44
Red Faber 1940 76.46% 3 Pitcher Chicago White Sox (AL) 1914-1933 20 Living - Age 67 52
Elmer Flick 1916 80.00% 1 Right Field Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1898-1910 13 Living - Age 79 40
Willie Foster*` 1947 (VC) 75.00% VC Pitcher Chicago American Giants (ANL/NNL) 1923-1938 16 Living - Age 51 43
Jimmie Foxx 1950 100% 1 First Base Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1925-1942, 1945 20 Living - Age 48 43
Frankie Frisch 1942 91.89% 1 Second Base New York Giants (NL) 1919-1937 19 Living - Age 56 43
Pud Galvin 1903 80.77% 3 Pitcher Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1875, 1879-1892 15 Deceased (1856-1902) Deceased
Lou Gehrig 1944 100% 1 First Base New York Yankees (AL) 1923-1939 17 Deceased (1903-1941) Deceased
Charlie Gehringer 1947 100% 1 Second Base Detroit Tigers (AL) 1924-1942 19 Living - Age 52 44
Josh Gibson*` 1947 (VC) 100% VC Catcher Homestead Grays (ANL/NNL) 1929-1946 18 Deceased (1911-1947) Deceased
Jack Glasscock 1911 84.00% 11 Shortstop Cleveland Blues (NL) 1879-1895 17 Deceased (1857-1947) 54
George Gore 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1879-1892 14 Deceased (1867-1933) 52
Goose Goslin 1943 93.33% 1 Left Field Washington Senators (NL) 1921-1938 18 Living - Age 54 42
Frank Grant*` 1947 (VC) 83.33% VC Second Base Cuban Giants (I/MSL) 1886-1905 20 Deceased (1865-1937) Deceased
Hank Greenberg 1952 93.55% 1 First Base Detroit Tigers (AL) 1930, 1933-1941, 1945-1947 13 Living - Age 44 41
Clark Griffith* 1940 (VC) 78.57% VC Pitcher Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1891, 1893-1909, 1912-1914 20 Deceased (1869-1955) 70
Heinie Groh 1936 81.25% 5 Third Base Cincinnati Reds (NL) 1912-1927 16 Living - Age 66 47
Lefty Grove 1946 100% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1925-1941 17 Living - Age 55 46
Stan Hack 1952 77.42% 1 Third Base Chicago Cubs (NL) 1932-1947 16 Living - Age 46 43
Billy Hamilton 1906 82.61% 1 Center Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1901 14 Deceased (1866-1940) 40
Gabby Hartnett 1946 96.30% 1 Catcher Chicago Cubs (NL) 1922-1941 20 Living - Age 55 46
Harry Heilmann 1937 96.18% 1 Right Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1914, 1916-1930, 1932 17 Deceased (1894-1951) 43
Billy Herman 1952 77.42% 1 Second Base Chicago Cubs (NL) 1931-1943, 1946-1947 15 Living - Age 46 43
Pete Hill*` 1947 (VC) 91.67% VC Center Field Chicago American Giants (I) 1899-1925 27 Deceased (1880-1951) 67
Paul Hines 1904 76.00% 4 Center Field Providence Grays (NL) 1872-1891 20 Deceased (1855-1935) 49
Rogers Hornsby 1942 97.30% 1 Second Base St. Louis Cardinals (NL) 1915-1937 23 Living - Age 58 45
Carl Hubbell 1948 96.15% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1928-1943 16 Living - Age 53 45
Hughie Jennings 1927 75.00% 14 Shortstop Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1891-1903, 1907, 1909, 1912, 1918 17 Deceased (1869-1928) 58
Grant Johnson*` 1947 (VC) 83.33% VC Shortstop Brooklyn Royal Giants (I) 1895-1916 22 Living - Age 81 73
Walter Johnson 1932 100% 1 Pitcher Washington Senators (AL) 1907-1927 21 Deceased (1887-1946) 45
Addie Joss 1926 76.00% 15 Pitcher Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1902-1910 9 Deceased (1880-1911) Deceased
Tim Keefe 1901 75.00% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1893 14 Deceased (1857-1933) 44
Willie Keeler 1916 92.00% 2 Right Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1892-1910 19 Deceased (1872-1923) 44
Joe Kelley 1920 84.62% 8 Left Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1891-1906, 1908 17 Deceased (1871-1943) 49
King Kelly 1902 75.00% 2 Right Field/Catcher Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1878-1893 16 Deceased (1857-1894) Deceased
Napoleon Lajoie 1921 96.77% 1 Second Base Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1896-1916 21 Living - Age 81 47
Tommy Leach* 1940 (VC) 85.71% VC Third Base/Center Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1898-1915, 1918 19 Living - Age 78 63
Buck Leonard*` 1952 (VC) 100% VC First Base Homestead Grays (I/NNL) 1933-1950 18 Living - Age 48 45
John Henry Lloyd*` 1947 (VC) 100% VC Shortstop Lincoln Giants (I/ECL) 1906-1932 27 Living - Age 71 63
Herman Long* 1925 (VC) 75.00% VC Shortstop Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1889-1904 16 Deceased (1866-1909) Deceased
Dick Lundy*` 1952 (VC) 81.82% VC Shortstop Bacharach Giants (I/ECL) 1916-1939 24 Living - Age 57 54
Ted Lyons 1949 80.00% 3 Pitcher Chicago White Sox (AL) 1928-1942, 1946 16 Living - Age 55 49
Biz Mackey*` 1952 (VC) 100% VC Catcher Hilldale Daises (ECL/ANL/I) 1920-1941, 1945-1947, 1950 26 Living - Age 58 55
Sherry Magee 1924 86.21% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1904-1919 16 Deceased (1884-1929) 40
Christy Mathewson 1922 93.55% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1900-1916 17 Deceased (1880-1925) 41
Joe McGinnity 1913 91.30% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1899-1908 10 Deceased (1871-1929) 42
Bid McPhee 1905 75.00% 2 Second Base Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1882-1899 18 Deceased (1859-1943) 42
Cal McVey*^ 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Catcher/First Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879 9 Deceased (1849-1926) 71
Joe Medwick 1953 85.29% 1 Left Field St. Louis Cardinals (NL) 1932-1948 17 Living - Age 44 42
Jose Mendez*` 1947 (VC) 91.67% VC Pitcher Kansas City Monarchs (NNL) 1908-1926 19 Deceased (1887-1928) Deceased
Bill Monroe*` 1947 (VC) 75.00% VC Second Base Brooklyn Royal Giants (I) 1896-1914 19 Deceased (1876-1914) Deceased
Tony Mullane 1908 80.00% 8 Pitcher Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1881-1894 14 Deceased (1859-1944) 49
Kid Nichols 1911 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1890-1901, 1904-1906 15 Deceased (1869-1953) 42
Jim O'Rourke 1901 90.00% 1 Left Field/Utility New York Giants (NL) 1872-1893, 1904 23 Deceased (1850-1919) 51
Alejandro Oms*` 1947 (VC) 75.00% VC Center Field Cuban Stars (East) (ECL/ANL) 1917-1935 19 Deceased (1895-1946) Deceased
Mel Ott 1952 100% 1 Right Field New York Giants (NL) 1926-1947 22 Living - Age 46 43
Dickey Pearce*^ 1920 (VC) 100% VC Shortstop Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) 1871-1877 6 Deceased (1836-1908) Deceased
Lip Pike*^ 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Center Field Baltimore Canaries (NA) 1871-1878, 1881, 1887 10 Deceased (1845-1926) Deceased
Eddie Plank 1922 92.86% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1901-1917 17 Deceased (1875-1926) 47
Spotswood Poles*` 1947 (VC) 83.33% VC Center Field Lincoln Stars (I) 1909-1923 15 Living - Age 68 60
Charley Radbourn 1901 95.00% 1 Pitcher Providence Grays (NL) 1881-1891 11 Deceased (1854-1897) Deceased
Dick Redding*` 1947 (VC) 91.67% VC Pitcher Brooklyn Royal Giants (I/ECL) 1911-1938 18 Deceased (1891-1948) 56
Hardy Richardson* 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC Second Base/Left Field Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1892 14 Deceased (1855-1931) 65
Bullet Rogan*` 1947 (VC) 100% VC Pitcher Kansas City Monarchs (NNL/NAL) 1917-1938 22 Living - Age 62 54
Edd Roush 1943 76.67% 1 Center Field Cincinnati Reds (NL) 1913-1929, 1931 18 Living - Age 62 49
Red Ruffing 1951 82.86% 2 Pitcher New York Yankees (AL) 1924-1942, 1945-1947 22 Living - Age 50 46
Amos Rusie 1906 78.26% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1889-1895, 1897-1898, 1901 10 Deceased (1871-1942) 35
Babe Ruth 1940 97.06% 1 Right Field/Left Field New York Yankees (AL) 1914-1935 22 Deceased (1895-1948) 45
Jimmy Ryan* 1930 (VC) 86.67% VC Center Field Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1885-1900, 1902, 1903 18 Deceased (1863-1923) Deceased
Louis Santop*` 1947 (VC) 91.67% VC Catcher Hilldale Daises (I) 1909-1926 18 Deceased (1890-1942) Deceased
Joe Sewell 1942 75.68% 5 Shortstop/Third Base Cleveland Indians (AL) 1920-1933 14 Living - Age 56 43
Jimmy Sheckard* 1945 (VC) 83.33% VC Left Field Chicago Cubs (NL) 1897-1913 17 Deceased (1878-1947) 67
Al Simmons 1949 96.00% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1924-1944 21 Living - Age 53 47
George Sisler 1935 90.91% 1 First Base St. Louis Browns (AL) 1915-1922, 1924-1930 15 Living - Age 61 42
Al Spalding^ 1915 80.00% 15 Pitcher Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1878 8 Deceased (1850-1915) Deceased
Tris Speaker 1933 100% 1 Center Field Cleveland Indians (AL) 1907-1928 22 Living - Age 67 45
Joe Start*^ 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC First Base Providence Grays (NL) 1871-1886 16 Deceased (1842-1927) 78
Turkey Stearnes*` 1947 (VC) 100% VC Center Field Detroit Stars (NNL/NAL) 1923-1942 20 Living - Age 54 46
Harry Stovey 1907 75.00% 7 Left Field/First Base Philadelphia Athletics (AA) 1880-1893 14 Deceased (1856-1931) 51
Mule Suttles*` 1952 (VC) 90.90% VC First Base Newark Eagles (NNL) 1921, 1923-1944 23 Living - Age 54 51
Ezra Sutton* 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Third Base Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1871-1888 18 Deceased (1850-1907) Deceased
Bill Terry 1941 80.00% 1 First Base New York Giants (NL) 1923-1936 14 Living - Age 56 43
Sam Thompson 1907 79.17% 5 Right Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1885-1898, 1906 14 Deceased (1860-1922) 47
Cristobal Torriente*` 1947 (VC) 83.33% VC Center Field Chicago American Giants (NNL) 1913-1928 16 Deceased (1893-1938) Deceased
Pie Traynor 1942 83.78% 1 Third Base Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1920-1937 18 Living - Age 56 42
Dazzy Vance 1940 76.47% 1 Pitcher Brooklyn Robins (Dodgers) (NL) 1915, 1918, 1922-1935 16 Living - Age 64 48
George Van Haltren 1918 75.00% 11 Center Field New York Giants (NL) 1887-1903 17 Deceased (1866-1945) 52
Arky Vaughan 1953 100% 1 Shortstop Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1932-1943, 1947-1948 14 Deceased (1912-1952) Deceased
Rube Waddell 1915 84.00% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1897, 1899-1910 13 Deceased (1876-1914) Deceased
Honus Wagner 1922 92.86% 1 Shortstop Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1897-1917 21 Deceased (1874-1955) 48
Bobby Wallace 1925 75.00% 3 Shortstop St. Louis Browns (AL) 1894-1918 25 Living - Age 82 52
Ed Walsh 1922 89.29% 1 Pitcher Chicago White Sox (AL) 1904-1917 14 Living - Age 74 41
John Ward 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop/Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1878-1894 17 Deceased (1860-1925) 47
Paul Waner 1950 94.12% 1 Right Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1926-1945 20 Living - Age 52 47
Mickey Welch* 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1892 13 Deceased (1859-1941) 61
Willie Wells*` 1952 (VC) 90.90% VC Shortstop St. Louis Stars (NNL) 1924-1948 25 Living - Age 50 47
Zack Wheat 1932 87.50% 1 Left Field Brooklyn Robins (Dodgers) (NL) 1909-1927 10 Living - Age 67 44
Deacon White 1904 76.00% 4 Catcher/Third Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1871-1890 20 Deceased (1847-1939) 57
Smokey Joe Williams*` 1947 (VC) 100% VC Pitcher Homestead Grays (I/ANL) 1905-1932 28 Deceased (1895-1946) Deceased
Vic Willis 1919 77.78% 5 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1898-1910 13 Deceased (1876-1947) 43
Jud Wilson*` 1952 (VC) 90.90% VC Third Base Baltimore Black Sox (I/ECL/ANL) 1922-1939 18 Living - Age 56 53
George Wright^ 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1882 12 Deceased (1847-1937) 60
Cy Young 1916 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1890-1911 22 Deceased (1867-1955) 49

* = Elected by Veterans Committee
^ = Played Significantly Prior to 1871
` = Played in the Negro Leagues

Players Elected by Primary Position
Catcher (11): Charlie Bennett, Roger Bresnahan, Mickey Cochrane, Bill Dickey, Buck Ewing, Josh Gibson, Gabby Hartnett, Biz Mackey, Cal McVey, Louis Santop, Deacon White
First Base (13): Cap Anson, Jake Beckley, Dan Brouthers, Frank Chance, Roger Connor, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Hank Greenberg, Buck Leonard, George Sisler, Joe Start, Mule Suttles, Bill Terry
Second Base (13): Ross Barnes, Cupid Childs, Eddie Collins, Larry Doyle, Frankie Frisch, Charlie Gehringer, Frank Grant, Billy Herman, Rogers Hornsby, Napoleon Lajoie, Bid McPhee, Bill Monroe, Hardy Richardson
Third Base (9): Frank Baker, John Beckwith, Jimmy Collins, Heinie Groh, Stan Hack, Tommy Leach, Ezra Sutton, Pie Traynor, Jud Wilson
Shortstop (17): Joe Cronin, Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Jack Glasscock, Hughie Jennings, Grant Johnson, John Henry Lloyd, Herman Long, Dick Lundy, Dickey Pearce, Joe Sewell, Arky Vaughan, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, John Ward, Willie Wells, George Wright
Left Field (12): Jesse Burkett, Fred Clarke, Ed Delahanty, Goose Goslin, Joe Kelley, Sherry Magee, Joe Medwick, Jim O'Rourke, Jimmy Sheckard, Al Simmons, Harry Stovey, Zack Wheat
Center Field (20): Earl Averill, James "Cool Papa" Bell, Pete Browning, Max Carey, Oscar Charleston, Ty Cobb, Hugh Duffy, George Gore, Billy Hamilton, Pete Hill, Paul Hines, Alejandro Oms, Lip Pike, Spotswood Poles, Edd Roush, Jimmy Ryan, Tris Speaker, Turkey Stearnes, Cristobal Torriente, George Van Haltren
Right Field (9): Sam Crawford, King Kelly, Elmer Flick, Harry Heilmann, Willie Keeler, Mel Ott, Babe Ruth, Sam Thompson, Paul Waner
Pitcher (37): Pete Alexander, Mordecai Brown, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Andy Cooper, Wilbur Cooper, Stan Coveleski, Dizzy Dean, Red Faber, Willie Foster, Pud Galvin, Clark Griffith, Lefty Grove, Carl Hubbell, Walter Johnson, Addie Joss, Tim Keefe, Ted Lyons, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Jose Mendez, Tony Mullane, Kid Nichols, Eddie Plank, Charley Radbourn, Dick Redding, Bullet Rogan, Red Ruffing, Amos Rusie, Al Spalding, Dazzy Vance, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh, Mickey Welch, Smokey Joe Williams, Vic Willis, Cy Young

Players Elected by Year
1901 (5): Dan Brouthers, John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn
1902 (4): Cap Anson, Roger Connor, Buck Ewing, King Kelly
1903 (1): Pud Galvin
1904 (2): Paul Hines, Deacon White
1905 (1): Bid McPhee
1906 (2): Billy Hamilton, Amos Rusie
1907 (5): Charlie Bennett, Harry Stovey, Sam Thompson, John Ward, George Wright
1908 (2): Ed Delahanty, Tony Mullane
1909 (3): Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, George Gore
1910 (1): Jesse Burkett
1911 (3): Ross Barnes, Jack Glasscock, Kid Nichols
1912 (0):
1913 (2): Jimmy Collins, Joe McGinnity
1914 (1): George Davis
1915 (2): Al Spalding, Rube Waddell
1916 (4): Bill Dahlen, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Cy Young
1917 (2): Jake Beckley, Fred Clarke
1918 (2): Hugh Duffy, George Van Haltren
1919 (1): Vic Willis
1920 (2): Cupid Childs, Joe Kelley
- 1920 VC (7): Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Hardy Richardson, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Mickey Welch
1921 (3): Mordecai Brown, Napoleon Lajoie, Christy Mathewson
1922 (4): Sam Crawford, Eddie Plank, Honus Wagner, Ed Walsh
1923 (0):
1924 (1): Sherry Magee
1925 (2): Roger Bresnahan, Bobby Wallace
- 1925 VC (1): Herman Long
1926 (1): Larry Doyle
1927 (2): Frank Baker, Hughie Jennings
1928 (0):
1929 (1): Addie Joss
1930 (0):
- 1930 VC (1): Jimmy Ryan
1931 (0):
1932 (3): Frank Chance, Walter Johnson, Zack Wheat
1933 (2): Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker
1934 (2): Max Carey, Stan Coveleski
1935 (3): Pete Alexander, Eddie Collins, George Sisler
- 1935 VC (0):
1936 (1): Heinie Groh
1937 (1): Harry Heilmann
1938 (0):
1939 (0):
1940 (3): Red Faber, Babe Ruth, Dazzy Vance
- 1940 VC (2): Clark Griffith, Tommy Leach
1941 (1): Bill Terry
1942 (5): Mickey Cochrane, Frankie Frisch, Rogers Hornsby, Joe Sewell, Pie Traynor
1943 (2): Goose Goslin, Edd Roush
1944 (1): Lou Gehrig
1945 (0):
- 1945 VC (1): Jimmy Sheckard
1946 (2): Lefty Grove, Gabby Hartnett
1947 (2): Earl Averill, Charlie Gehringer
- 1947 Negro League Players VC (19): John Beckwith, Oscar Charleston, Andy Cooper, Willie Foster, Josh Gibson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Grant Johnson, John Henry Lloyd, Jose Mendez, Bill Monroe, Alejandro Oms, Spotswood Poles, Dick Redding, Bullet Rogan, Louis Santop, Turkey Stearnes, Cristobal Torriente, Smokey Joe Williams
1948 (2): Dizzy Dean, Carl Hubbell
1949 (2): Ted Lyons, Al Simmons
1950 (3): Joe Cronin, Jimmie Foxx, Paul Waner
- 1950 VC (1): Wilbur Cooper
1951 (2): Bill Dickey, Red Ruffing
1952 (4): Hank Greenberg, Stan Hack, Billy Herman, Mel Ott
- 1952 Negro League Players VC (8): James "Cool Papa" Bell, Martin Dihigo, Buck Leonard, Dick Lundy, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Willie Wells, Jud Wilson
1953 (2): Joe Medwick, Arky Vaughan
1954 (0):

Players Elected by Primary Decade
1870s (9): Ross Barnes, Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Al Spalding, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Deacon White, George Wright
1880s (21): Cap Anson, Charlie Bennett, Dan Brouthers, Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Roger Conner, Buck Ewing, Pud Galvin, Jack Glasscock, George Gore, Paul Hines, Tim Keefe, King Kelly, Tony Mullane, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn, Hardy Richardson, Harry Stovey, John Ward, Mickey Welch
1890s (19): Jake Beckley, Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs, Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Ed Delahanty, Hugh Duffy, Frank Grant, Clark Griffith, Billy Hamilton, Hughie Jennings, Joe Kelley, Herman Long, Bid McPhee, Kid Nichols, Jimmy Ryan, Amos Rusie, Sam Thompson, George Van Haltren
1900s (24): Roger Bresnahan, Mordecai Brown, Frank Chance, Fred Clarke, Jimmy Collins, Sam Crawford, Elmer Flick, Pete Hill, Grant Johnson, Addie Joss, Willie Keeler, Napoleon Lajoie, Tommy Leach, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Bill Monroe, Eddie Plank, Jimmy Sheckard, Rube Waddell, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, Ed Walsh, Vic Willis, Cy Young
1910s (17): Pete Alexander, Frank Baker, Max Carey, Wilbur Cooper, Ty Cobb, Eddie Collins, Larry Doyle, Heinie Groh, Walter Johnson, John Henry Lloyd, Sherry Magee, Jose Mendez, Spotswood Poles, Louis Santop, Tris Speaker, Zack Wheat, Smokey Joe Williams
1920s (21): John Beckwith, Oscar Charleston, Andy Cooper, Stan Coveleski, Red Faber, Frankie Frisch, Goose Goslin, Harry Heilmann, Rogers Hornsby, Dick Lundy, Biz Mackey, Alejandro Oms, Dick Redding, Bullet Rogan, Edd Roush, Babe Ruth, George Sisler, Joe Sewell, Cristobal Torriente, Pie Traynor, Dazzy Vance
1930s (29): Earl Averill, James "Cool Papa" Bell, Mickey Cochrane, Joe Cronin, Dizzy Dean, Bill Dickey, Martin Dihigo, Willie Foster, Jimmie Foxx, Charlie Gehringer, Lou Gehrig, Josh Gibson, Hank Greenberg, Lefty Grove, Gabby Hartnett, Billy Herman, Carl Hubbell, Ted Lyons, Joe Medwick, Mel Ott, Red Ruffing, Al Simmons, Turkey Stearnes, Mule Suttles, Bill Terry, Arky Vaughan, Paul Waner, Willie Wells, Jud Wilson
1940s (1): Stan Hack

Players Elected by Primary Organization
Bacharach Giants (I, ECL) (1): Dick Lundy
Baltimore Black Sox (I, ECL, ANL) (1): Jud Wilson
Baltimore Canaries (NA) (1): Lip Pike
Baltimore Orioles (fka St. Louis Browns) (AL) (2): George Sisler, Bobby Wallace
Baltimore Orioles (NL) (3): Hughie Jennings, Willie Keeler, Joe Kelley
Boston Red Sox (fka Americans) (AL) (3): Jimmy Collins, Joe Cronin, Cy Young
Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) (1): Dickey Pearce
Brooklyn Dodgers (fka Robins) (NL) (2): Dazzy Vance, Zack Wheat
Brooklyn Royal Giants (I, ECL, NNL) (3): Grant Johnson, Bill Monroe, Dick Redding
Buffalo Bisons (NL) (4): Dan Brouthers, Pud Galvin, Hardy Richardson, Deacon White
Chicago American Giants (I, NNL, NSL, NAL) (3): Willie Foster, Pete Hill, Cristobal Torriente
Chicago Cubs (fka White Stockings, Colts) (NL) (12): Cap Anson, Mordecai Brown, Frank Chance, Bill Dahlen, Clark Griffith, George Gore, Stan Hack, Gabby Hartnett, Billy Herman, King Kelly, Jimmy Ryan, Jimmy Sheckard
Chicago Giants (NNL) (1): John Beckwith
Chicago White Sox (AL) (4): Eddie Collins, Red Faber, Ted Lyons, Ed Walsh
Cincinnati Reds (NL, AA) (4): Heinie Groh, Bid McPhee, Tony Mullane, Edd Roush
Cleveland Blues (NL) (1): Jack Glasscock
Cleveland Indians (fka Naps) (AL) (7): Earl Averill, Stan Coveleski, Elmer Flick, Addie Joss, Napoleon Lajoie, Joe Sewell, Tris Speaker
Cleveland Spiders (NL) (2): Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs
Cuban Giants (I, MSL) (1): Frank Grant
Cuban Stars (East) (I, ECL, ANL) (2): Martin Dihigo, Alejandro Oms
Detroit Stars (I, NNL, NAL) (1): Turkey Stearnes
Detroit Tigers (AL) (5): Ty Cobb, Sam Crawford, Charlie Gehringer, Hank Greenberg, Harry Heilmann
Detroit Wolverines (NL) (1): Charlie Bennett
Hilldale Daises (I, ECL, ANL, EWL) (2): Biz Mackey, Louis Santop
Homestead Grays (I, ANL, NNL) (3): Josh Gibson, Buck Leonard, Smokey Joe Williams
Indianapolis ABCs (I, NNL, NSL, NAL) (1): Oscar Charleston
Kansas City Atheltics (fka Philadelphia Athletics) (AL) (7): Frank Baker, Mickey Cochrane, Jimmie Foxx, Lefty Grove, Eddie Plank, Al Simmons, Rube Waddell
Kansas City Monarchs (I, NNL, NAL) (3): Willie Foster, Jose Mendez, Bullet Rogan
Lincoln Giants (I, ECL, ANL) (1): John Henry Lloyd
Lincoln Stars (I) (1): Spotswood Poles
Louisville Colonels (NL, AA) (1): Pete Browning
Milwaukee Braves (fka Boston Braves, Beaneaters, Red Stockings) (NA, NL) (10): Ross Barnes, John Clarkson, Hugh Duffy, Herman Long, Cal McVey, Kid Nichols, Al Spalding, Ezra Sutton, Vic Willis, George Wright
New York Giants (NL) (16): Roger Bresnahan, Roger Connor, George Davis, Larry Doyle, Buck Ewing, Frankie Frisch, Carl Hubbell, Tim Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Jim O’Rourke, Mel Ott, Amos Rusie, George Van Haltren, John Ward, Mickey Welch
New York Yankees (AL) (4): Bill Dickey, Lou Gehrig, Red Ruffing, Babe Ruth
Newark Eagles (NNL) (1): Mule Suttles
Philadelphia Athletics (AA) (1): Harry Stovey
Philadelphia Phillies (NL) (5): Pete Alexander, Ed Delahanty, Billy Hamilton, Sherry Magee, Sam Thompson
Pittsburgh Crawfords (NNL) (1): James "Cool Papa" Bell
Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) (9): Jake Beckley, Max Carey, Fred Clarke, Wilbur Cooper, Tommy Leach, Pie Traynor, Arky Vaughan, Honus Wagner, Paul Waner
Providence Grays (NL) (3): Paul Hines, Charley Radbourn, Joe Start
St. Louis Cardinals (fka Browns) (NL, AA) (4): Bob Caruthers, Dizzy Dean, Rogers Hornsby, Joe Medwick
St. Louis Stars (NNL) (1): Willie Wells
Washington Senators (AL) (2): Goose Goslin, Walter Johnson

Hall of Fame Contributors Wing
Contributors Elected - 22
Contributor Year Elected Contribution Living/Deceased Age at Election
Doc Adams 1925 Pioneer Deceased (1814-1899) Deceased
Ed Barrow 1941 General Manager Deceased (1868-1953) Deceased
Alex Cartwright 1925 Pioneer Deceased (1820-1892) Deceased
Henry Chadwick 1925 Writer Deceased (1824-1908) Deceased
Charlie Comiskey 1925 Owner Deceased (1859-1931) 66
Jim Creighton 1925 Pioneer Deceased (1841-1862) Deceased
Rube Foster 1930 Manager/Executive Deceased (1879-1930) Deceased
Miller Huggins 1941 Manager Deceased (1879-1929) Deceased
William Hulbert 1925 NL President Deceased (1832-1882) Deceased
Ned Hanlon 1936 Manager Deceased (1857-1937) 79
Ban Johnson 1936 AL President Deceased (1864-1931) Deceased
Bill Klem 1941 Umpire Deceased (1874-1951) 67
Kenesaw Landis 1951 Commissioner Deceased (1866-1944) Deceased
Connie Mack 1930 Manager/Owner Living - Age 93 68
Joe McCarthy 1951 Manager Living - Age 68 64
John McGraw 1936 Manager Deceased (1873-1934) Deceased
Al Reach 1946 Owner Deceased (1840-1928) Deceased
Francis Richter 1941 Writer Deceased (1854-1926) Deceased
Branch Rickey 1946 General Manager Living - Age 74 65
Frank Selee 1936 Manager Deceased (1859-1909) Deceased
AG Spalding* 1930 Executive Deceased (1850-1915) Deceased
Harry Wright 1925 Manager Deceased (1835-1895) Deceased

* = Also elected as a player

Contributors Elected by Primary Contribution
Commissioner (1): Kenesaw Landis
General Manager (2): Ed Barrow, Branch Rickey
League President (2): William Hulbert, Ban Johnson
Manager (6): Miller Huggins, Ned Hanlon, Joe McCarthy, John McGraw, Frank Selee, Harry Wright
Owner (3): Charlie Comiskey, Al Reach, AG Spalding
Pioneer (3): Doc Adams, Alex Cartwright, Jim Creighton
Umpire (1): Bill Klem

Contributors Elected by Primary Team
Brooklyn Dodgers (fka Superbas) (AA, NL) (1): Ned Hanlon
Chicago American Giants (NNL) (1): Rube Foster
Chicago Cubs (fka White Stockings, Colts) (NA, NL) (1): AG Spalding
Chicago White Sox (AL) (1): Charlie Comiskey
Excelsior of Brooklyn (NAB) (1): Jim Creighton
Milwaukee Braves (fka Boston Braves, Beaneaters, Red Caps, Red Stockings) (NA, NL) (2): Frank Selee, Harry Wright
New York Giants (NL) (1): John McGraw
New York Knickerbockers (NAB) (2): Doc Adams, Alex Cartwright
New York Yankees (AL) (2): Miller Huggins, Joe McCarthy
Philadelphia Athletics (AL) (1): Connie Mack
Philadelphia Phillies (fka Quakers) (NL) (1): Al Reach
St. Louis Cardinals (AA, NL) (1): Branch Rickey

Contributors Elected by Year
1925: Doc Adams, Alex Cartwright, Henry Chadwick, Harry Wright, William Hulbert, Charlie Comiskey, Jim Creighton
1930: Rube Foster, Connie Mack, AG Spalding
1936: Ned Hanlon, Ban Johnson, John McGraw, Frank Selee
1941: Miller Huggins, Bill Klem, Francis Richter, Ed Barrow
1946: Al Reach, Branch Rickey
1951: Kenesaw Landis, Joe McCarthy

Miscellaneous Information
- Highest Regular Election Percentage: Cap Anson, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Charlie Gehringer, Lefty Grove, Walter Johnson, Kid Nichols, Mel Ott, Tris Speaker, Arky Vaughan, Cy Young – 100%
- Number of 1st Ballot Electees: 63
- Most Years on Ballot Before Election: Cupid Childs, Addie Joss, Al Spalding – 15
- Number of Players Elected After 10 Years on Ballot: 8
- Number of Players Lasting 15 Years on Ballot without Election: 42
- Number of Players Elected by Veterans Committee: 39
- Highest Percentage Among Players Not Elected: 73.53% - Burleigh Grimes (1953)
- Most Regular Election Electees in One Year: 5 (1901, 1907, 1942)
- Fewest Regular Election Electees in One Year: 0 (1912, 1923, 1928, 1930, 1931, 1938, 1939, 1945, 1954)
- Most Veterans Committee Electees in One Year: 19 (1947)
- Largest Ballot: 78 Players (1901)
- Largest Post-1915 Ballot: 50 Players (1952)
- Smallest Ballot: 23 Players (1918)
- Most Votes Cast: 37 (1942)
- Fewest Votes Cast: 20 (1901)
- Team With Most Players Elected: New York Giants - 16
- Team With Second Most Players Elected: Chicago Cubs - 12
- Electee with Longest Post-1871 Career: Smokey Joe Williams - 28
- Electee with Shortest Post-1871 Career: Dickey Pearce – 8 Seasons
- Members Elected as Both Players and Contributors: Al Spalding
- Youngest Elected Player: Amos Rusie – Age 35
- Oldest Elected Player: Joe Start – 78
- Number of Posthumously Elected Players: 26
- Number of Posthumously Elected Contributors: 16
- Number of Living Hall of Famers: 63
- Number of Deceased Hall of Famers: 100
- Oldest Living Hall of Famer: Connie Mack - 93
- Deceased in Past Year: Clark Griffith, Honus Wagner, Cy Young

Number of Ballots Submitted in Past Elections
1901: 20
1902: 24
1903: 26
1904: 25
1905: 24
1906: 23
1907: 24
1908: 25
1909: 22
1910: 25
1911: 25
1912: 23
1913: 23
1914: 26
1915: 25
1916: 25
1917: 25
1918: 24
1919: 27
1920: 26
1921: 31
1922: 28
1923: 25
1924: 29
1925: 24
1926: 25
1927: 28
1928: 27
1929: 25
1930: 25
1931: 32
1932: 24
1933: 29
1934: 28
1935: 33
1936: 32
1937: 34
1938: 30
1939: 32
1940: 34
1941: 35
1942: 37
1943: 30
1944: 27
1945: 29
1946: 27
1947: 28
1948: 26
1949: 25
1950: 34
1951: 35
1952: 31
1953: 34
1954: 32

Links to Past Elections
1901 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77167)
1902 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77464)
1903 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77797)
1904 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78133)
1905 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78417)
1906 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78737)
1907 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79020)
1908 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79393)
1909 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79738)
1910 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80134)
1911 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80597)
1912 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81008)
1913 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81477)
1914 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81965)
1915 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82365)
1916 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82681)
1917 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82940)
1918 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83241)
1919 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83422)
1920 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83665), 1920 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83697)
1921 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83924)
1922 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84099)
1923 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84257)
1924 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84423)
1925 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84552), 1925 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php? t=84636), 1925 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83852)
1926 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84727)
1927 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84871)
1928 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85029)
1929 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85206)
1930 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85358), 1930 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php? t=85439), 1930 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84578)
1931 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85681)
1932 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85850)
1933 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86054)
1934 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86291)
1935 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86514), 1935 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php? t=86576)
1936 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86747), 1936 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85051)
1937 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87002)
1938 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87241)
1939 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87501)
1940 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87800), 1940 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php? t=87854)
1941 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=88041), 1941 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87881)
1942 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=88297)
1943 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89063)
1944 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89394)
1945 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89744), 1945 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89707)
1946 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89923), 1946 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89916)
1947 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90195), 1947 Negro League Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90109)
1948 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90391)
1949 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90572)
1950 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90811), 1950 VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90804)
1951 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=91009), 1951 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=91013)
1952 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=91182), 1952 Negro League Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=91175)
1953 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=91388)
1954 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=91792)

[Domenic]

My ballot will be as follows, as it currently stands:

01. Luke Appling
02. Wally Berger
03. Wes Ferrell
04. Joe Gordon
05. Bob Johnson

I am highly considering voting for:

01. Lefty Gomez
02. Tommy Henrich
03. Bucky Walters

And Ken Keltner is a player of interest, though I don't think he quite makes the cut. With a season of war credit and great defense, I think that he's borderline - but I've heard mixed reviews on his glove.

I'll cast my vote after some discussion - I think this is one of the more intriguing ballots yet.

[jjpm74]

NineWorldSeries--What do you see in Rick Ferrell that makes him better to you than his brother Wes Ferrell? If Rick Ferrell were elected to our HOF, he'd be the worst catcher there by a pretty sizable margin. Here are some catchers who were not elected in this project who had better careers than Rick Ferrell:

Duke Farrell
Johnny Kling
Deacon McGuire
Ray Schalk
Wally Schang

What makes Rick Ferrell better than these 5? What makes Rick Ferrell better than Wes Ferrell, Wally Berger, Joe Gordon, Tommy Henrich, and Bob Johnson; none of whom you voted for, but all of whom had better careers than Rick Ferrell?

How is Bucky Walters a better pitcher than Wes Ferrell?

[jjpm74]

Ballot:

Luke Appling
Wally Berger
Tommy Bridges
Wes Ferrell
Lefty Gomez
Joe Gordon
Tommy Henrich
Bob Johnson
Dixie Walker

[mwiggins]

Just to get the discussion going on an interesting candidate before half the people don't vote for him, here's a case I made for Walters at the end of the '54 thread.

I think Walters has the HoF peak*, but the fact that it ran through WW2 will derail any chance of him getting elected. That, and his career ERA+ of 115 won't cut it, given how Wes Ferrell has struggled to get elected.

* Walters 1939-1946: 141-90, 2030 IP, 135 ERA+. 1 MVP (also finished 3rd and 5th in MVP voting). Lead league in ERA+ twice, IP 3 times, Wins Twice, Complete Games 3 times, and K's once.

And his peak run would look better if not for his 1943 season when he pitched with an injured leg and an irregular appendix the whole season, and posted an ERA+ of 94 in 246 IP.

Like Dazzy Vance, his pitching career didn't take off until he was in his 30's. Walters was in IF who was converted to pitcher at age 25 when it was discovered he threw a natural sinker. He spent the rest of his 20's learning how to pitch in the majors, a sinkerballer on a terrible defensive Phillies team - a disasterous combo for his ERA.

But the rest of the league knew how good he was. He was an All-Star in 1937, despite being a .500 pitcher on a terrible team with a 90 ERA+. Cincy traded for him in 1938, despite that fact that he was off to a terrible start. The Cincy GM told his owner "We can buy Walters from Philadelphia, and it may mean a pennant by 1939". And he was right. The Reds won the NL the next two years, and Walters was NL MVP in 1939, and was the best pitcher in the NL both years. And in 1940, he led them to a World Series title over Detroit by pitching two complete game victories, posting a 1.50 ERA and a .778 WHIP in his two starts.

He never matched those two great years, but the next year, in 1941, he was still probably the 2nd best pitcher in the NL. In 1942 he was one of the top 5 pitchers in the NL. And in 1944, healthy again after his injury plagued 1943 season, he was again the best pitcher in the NL.

And in addition to his pitching excellence, he was also a very good hitter for a pitcher. His career OPS+ was 69, and during his monster Triple Crown winning 1939 season, he posted a 111 OPS+ in 131 PA's. He was also a well above average fielder.

And despite spending the first 4 years of his career as a part-time infielder, he managed to post a career WARP3 score of 72.7, which is in line with a number of our current HoF pitchers like Coveleski (69.7), Vance (74.3), Dean (54.8), and Faber (68.1).

[Ace Venom]

I went back to full ballot this time:

Luke Appling
Wally Berger
Jim Bottomley
Tommy Bridges
Kiki Cuyler
Wes Ferrell
Lefty Gomez
Joe Gordon
Tommy Henrich
Bob Johnson
Chuck Klein
Tony Lazzeri
Ernie Lombardi
Dixie Walker
Lon Warneke

[Domenic]

Just to get the discussion going on an interesting candidate before half the people don't vote for him, here's a case I made for Walters at the end of the '54 thread.

I view Walters' pitching credentials as being very similar to Ferrell's. His nearly 500 IP advantage isn't insignificant and, so far as I can tell, he pitched for some historically poor defensive teams, so his 115 ERA+ (solid on its own) may even be a bit misleading. While Ferrell does have him beat with the bat by a fair margin, Walters wasn't a slouch with the bat, so far as most pitchers are considered.

I think my voting for Walters depends on how strong an adjustment should be made to his ERA+, based upon the defenses behind him. I imagine his time with the Phillies would look at least a bit better, and that could be the difference between him being included on my ballot and being left off.

[Senor Octobre]

Appling
Berger
Bridges
Cuyler
W. Ferrell
Gomez
Gordon
Herman
Johnson
Klein
Lazzeri
Lombardi
Myer
Walters
Warneke

[mwiggins]

I view Walters' pitching credentials as being very similar to Ferrell's. His nearly 500 IP advantage isn't insignificant and, so far as I can tell, he pitched for some historically poor defensive teams, so his 115 ERA+ (solid on its own) may even be a bit misleading. While Ferrell does have him beat with the bat by a fair margin, Walters wasn't a slouch with the bat, so far as most pitchers are considered.

I think my voting for Walters depends on how strong an adjustment should be made to his ERA+, based upon the defenses behind him. I imagine his time with the Phillies would look at least a bit better, and that could be the difference between him being included on my ballot and being left off.

His Phillies years also look better when you consider that he was just learning how to pitch. He'd pitched 80 innings at age 20, his first year in the minors, but after that he was a full-time position player until he pitched 7 innings in 1934 at age 25.

[nerfan]

Appling
W. Ferrell
Gordon
Henrich (war credit)

[Jsquared83]

Appling
Cuyler
Gomez
Johnson
Lazzeri
Lombardi
Manush

[PVNICK]

Appling
Bridges
Wes Ferrell
Gordon
Myer
Walters

Does anyone have anything regarding Buddy Myer's defense? He led the AL in batting in 1935 and was otherwise an above average offensive player, while posting better than league average RF/9 and fpct (but those stats are close to meaningless in my understanding).

[mwiggins]

Does anyone have anything regarding Buddy Myer's defense? He led the AL in batting in 1935 and was otherwise an above average offensive player, while posting better than league average RF/9 and fpct (but those stats are close to meaningless in my understanding).

His Defensive Win Shares grade is a B-. BP's defensive metrics show him as a little below average, with 3 really good defensive seasons mixed in.

[dgarza]

Luke Appling
Jim Bottomley
Tommy Bridges
Kiki Cuyler
Wes Ferrell
Lefty Gomez
Joe Gordon
Babe Herman
Bob Johnson
Chuck Klein
Tony Lazzeri
Ernie Lombardi
Heinie Manush
Bucky Walters
Lon Warneke


1. Chuck Klein
2. Luke Appling
3. Kiki Cuyler
4. Bob Johnson
5. Ernie Lombardi
6. Joe Gordon
7. Heinie Manush
8. Lefty Gomez
9. Tony Lazzeri
10. Bucky Walters
11. Jim Bottomley
12. Tommy Bridges
13. Babe Herman
14. Lon Warneke
15. Wes Ferrell

[Domenic]

Babe Herman

I still don't understand how you can vote for Babe Herman, but not Wally Berger. Not only was Berger a slightly better hitter, but he was much better defensively - a very good CF'er, as compared to Herman, a subpar corner outfielder...

[mwiggins]

Just noticed that Nerfan and PVNICK listed Wes Ferrell on their ballot, but voted for Rick Ferrell.

[mwiggins]

I still don't understand how you can vote for Babe Herman, but not Wally Berger. Not only was Berger a slightly better hitter, but he was much better defensively - a very good CF'er, as compared to Herman, a subpar corner outfielder...

I think you're overrating Herman's defense a bit...:)

[nerfan]

Just noticed that Nerfan and PVNICK listed Wes Ferrell on their ballot, but voted for Rick Ferrell.

Oh, crum. My mind really is going to pieces. If a mod could change that vote that would be great.

[Domenic]

I think you're overrating Herman's defense a bit...:)

I don't doubt that at all, actually.

I realize that Berger's not the best candidate, but dgarza voted for Hack Wilson and Babe Herman in every election... and Berger was, at the very worst, slightly better than both. In my mind, he was a bit better than Wilson and much, much better than Herman.

Oh, crum. My mind really is going to pieces. If a mod could change that vote that would be great.

I'd PM Ace Venom. He's adjusted a few tallies by hand, so I don't think he'd mind.

Here's hoping I'm not putting words in your mouth, Ace.

[Cowtipper]

Luke Appling
Wally Berger
Jim Bottomley
Tommy Bridges
Kiki Cuyler
Paul Derringer
Wes Ferrell
Lefty Gomez
Joe Gordon
Bob Johnson
Chuck Klein
Tony Lazzeri
Ernie Lombardi
Heinie Manush
Lon Warneke

[Ace Venom]

Oh, crum. My mind really is going to pieces. If a mod could change that vote that would be great.

I'll recalculate at the end. It's no big deal.

[PVNICK]

Just noticed that Nerfan and PVNICK listed Wes Ferrell on their ballot, but voted for Rick Ferrell.
That was stupid of me. If possible change or have it reflect that I wanted to vote for Wes not Rick.
And thanks for the info on Buddy Myer.

[Tiboreau]

I view Walters' pitching credentials as being very similar to Ferrell's. His nearly 500 IP advantage isn't insignificant and, so far as I can tell, he pitched for some historically poor defensive teams, so his 115 ERA+ (solid on its own) may even be a bit misleading. While Ferrell does have him beat with the bat by a fair margin, Walters wasn't a slouch with the bat, so far as most pitchers are considered.

I think my voting for Walters depends on how strong an adjustment should be made to his ERA+, based upon the defenses behind him. I imagine his time with the Phillies would look at least a bit better, and that could be the difference between him being included on my ballot and being left off.

Actually, considering that he was a member of Bill McKechnie's late '30s & early '40s Cincinnati Reds, Bucky Walters not only played for some good defensive teams--his peak coincided with some great defensive teams.

The two knocks I've heard on Bucky Walters' peak, which is the main point in his favor, is that his top 3 years, '39 - '41, are boosted by playing under defense-obsessed McKechnie and that his 4th best year. '44, was boosted by the easier competition of WWII.

[KCGHOST]

Appling
Bridges
Gomez

[mwiggins]

Actually, considering that he was a member of Bill McKechnie's late '30s & early '40s Cincinnati Reds, Bucky Walters not only played for some good defensive teams--his peak coincided with some great defensive teams.

The two knocks I've heard on Bucky Walters' peak, which is the main point in his favor, is that his top 3 years, '39 - '41, are boosted by playing under defense-obsessed McKechnie and that his 4th best year. '44, was boosted by the easier competition of WWII.

And as a sinkerballer, moving from the terrible defensive Phillies to the great infield the Reds had was one of the main reasons his career took off after the trade. If you were going to apply some sort of DIPS adjustment to his ERA+, I would expect you'd bump up all his Philly years and discount his 1939-1941 seasons.

[mwiggins]

Appling
Bridges
W. Ferrell
Gordon
Henrich
Johnson
Travis
Walters

[SavoyBG]

How is Bucky Walters a better pitcher than Wes Ferrell?

I voted for both, but here's how Walters can easily be argued as a better pitcher than Ferrell:

CAREER WIN SHARES
Ferrell - 233
Walters - 258

BEST THREE
Ferrell - 35, 32, 28
Walters - 38, 32, 32

ERA+
Ferrell - 117 in 2623 innings
Walters - 115 in 3104 innings

[SavoyBG]

MY VOTES:

Appling
Berger
W. Ferrell
Gomez
Walters

I'm not bitng on Gordon so far, and don't see why people would think that he was better than Walters:

CAREER WIN SHARES
Walters - 258
Gordon - 242

BEST THREE
Walters - 38, 32, 32
Gordon - 31, 28, 26

And comparing Gordon to other 2Bmen:

WIN SHARES per 162:
Gehringer - 26.71
Frisch - 25.66
Herman - 25.12
Doyle - 26.51
Evers - 24.34
Lazzeri - 23.46 (and he hasn't come close to getting in)
Gordon - 21.07

Gordon is just not in the same league with the level of play of most 2Bmen that we have inducted so far.

The only argument I can see against Walters is that he had a great year during the war in 1944. Otherwise he is clearly on the levl of some guys we have inducted:

CAREER WIN SHARES
Walters - 258
Coveleski - 245
Vance - 241

BEST THREE
Walters - 38, 32, 32
Coveleski - 32, 29, 29
Vance - 36, 32, 26

[SavoyBG]

Ballot:

Tommy Henrich


You must be kidding with Henrich, right?

WIN SHARES per 162:
Henrich - 19.43

He's a very good major league player, but that's it. He is nowhere near a hall of famer.

[dgarza]

You must be kidding with Henrich, right?

WIN SHARES per 162:
Henrich - 19.43

He's a very good major league player, but that's it. He is nowhere near a hall of famer.
I don't get it either. It seems like one would have to give Henrich 4-5 years of WWII credit (he only served 3) for him to even come barely close to HOF territory. If Henrich would have played through WWII, he would have been very similar to Bill Nicholson. Will Henrich supporters support Nicholson?

[mwiggins]

I don't get it either. It seems like one would have to give Henrich 4-5 years of WWII credit (he only served 3) for him to even come barely close to HOF territory. If Henrich would have played through WWII, he would have been very similar to Bill Nicholson. Will Henrich supporters support Nicholson?

Not this one.

[jjpm74]

I don't get it either. It seems like one would have to give Henrich 4-5 years of WWII credit (he only served 3) for him to even come barely close to HOF territory. If Henrich would have played through WWII, he would have been very similar to Bill Nicholson. Will Henrich supporters support Nicholson?

Says the guy who voted for Rick Ferrell over Wes Ferrell last year, voted for Hack Wilson and listed him as a #1 but never voted for Wally Berger, never acknowledged any inquiries as to why he supported Wilson but not Berger and voted for a number of outliers this election with no justification whatsoever.

[SavoyBG]

Says the guy who voted for Rick Ferrell over Wes Ferrell last year, voted for Hack Wilson and listed him as a #1 but never voted for Wally Berger, never acknowledged any inquiries as to why he supported Wilson but not Berger and voted for a number of outliers this election with no justification whatsoever.


Way to dodge the question!!!

You can't justify your vote for Henrich by pointing out other ill conceived votes for other unworthy candidates.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[leecemark]

I'm not bitng on Gordon so far, and don't see why people would think that he was better than Walters:

CAREER WIN SHARES
Walters - 258
Gordon - 242

BEST THREE
Walters - 38, 32, 32
Gordon - 31, 28, 26




--Gordon missed a big chuck of his peak to WWII while Walters played thru it. Adjusting for that Gordon has significantly more career value. Walters still may hvae the peak advantage as you can't assume Gordon would have had a monster season comparable to Walter's best. I am willing to assume that a year or two of those lost years would have made his top 3 though.

[SavoyBG]

--Gordon missed a big chuck of his peak to WWII while Walters played thru it. Adjusting for that Gordon has significantly more career value. Walters still may hvae the peak advantage as you can't assume Gordon would have had a monster season comparable to Walter's best. I am willing to assume that a year or two of those lost years would have made his top 3 though.

Okay, I'll grant you that with war credit that Gordon is a better candidate than his raw numbers show, but not to the point that he should get elected in his first year while Walters flounders with less than 50% of the vote.

At best Gordon is a borderline candidate. His career win shares per 162 are all you have to look at to realize this. He was clearly not even as good per game as Evers or Lazzeri.

[SavoyBG]

--Gordon missed a big chuck of his peak to WWII while Walters played thru it. Adjusting for that Gordon has significantly more career value. Walters still may hvae the peak advantage as you can't assume Gordon would have had a monster season comparable to Walter's best. I am willing to assume that a year or two of those lost years would have made his top 3 though.


FYI, Gordon played in 1943 and only missed two years during the war.

[jjpm74]

Actually, considering that he was a member of Bill McKechnie's late '30s & early '40s Cincinnati Reds, Bucky Walters not only played for some good defensive teams--his peak coincided with some great defensive teams.

The two knocks I've heard on Bucky Walters' peak, which is the main point in his favor, is that his top 3 years, '39 - '41, are boosted by playing under defense-obsessed McKechnie and that his 4th best year. '44, was boosted by the easier competition of WWII.

This is exactly why I don't understand the support for Bucky Walters. Why should 1 mediocre pitcher from this era get elected while another (Allie Reynolds) who pitched through WWII get snubbed? Walters doesn't come close with his career unless one counts WWII seasons as level or gives him credit for playing on some horrible defensive teams which doesn't seem to be the case.

[leecemark]

FYI, Gordon played in 1943 and only missed two years during the war.

--For all practical purposes the war cost him 1946 too. His first year back was a lost season - 74 OPS+ after posting 155 and 126 in the two years before he left and 135 and 134 in 1947-8. Even if you only give him credit for two years at his average performance it would be plenty enough to get him above Walter's career WS total.

[leecemark]

This is exactly why I don't understand the support for Bucky Walters. Why should 1 mediocre pitcher from this era get elected while another (Allie Reynolds) who pitched through WWII get snubbed? Walters doesn't come close with his career unless one counts WWII seasons as level or gives him credit for playing on some horrible defensive teams which doesn't seem to be the case.

--I'm not voting for Walters, but he was a much better pitcher than Reynolds. Not to mention Reynolds has not had an opportunity to get snubbed yet. He is not eligible.

[jjpm74]

--I'm not voting for Walters, but he was a much better pitcher than Reynolds. Not to mention Reynolds has not had an opportunity to get snubbed yet. He is not eligible. Maybe not, but his career is over, he is from the same era, and he had a much better w-l pct, though I won't be voting for Reynolds either when he is first eligible in 1959.

[SavoyBG]

Maybe not, but his career is over, he is from the same era, and he had a much better w-l pct,


So won-lost percentage is an important part of how you guage a pitcher's candidacy?

[JDD]

Way to dodge the question!!!

You can't justify your vote for Henrich by pointing out other ill conceived votes for other unworthy candidates.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I think the question was answered. Some people may just be throwing darts.

And we should let them because it's all just opinion-based fun.

[mwiggins]

--For all practical purposes the war cost him 1946 too. His first year back was a lost season - 74 OPS+ after posting 155 and 126 in the two years before he left and 135 and 134 in 1947-8. Even if you only give him credit for two years at his average performance it would be plenty enough to get him above Walter's career WS total.

With proper war credit, Gordon probably tops 300 career Win Shares.

And it also needs to be noted that he was a RH power hitter who played most of his career in Yankee Stadium, which OPS+ underrates him for those years due to how the park factors are applied.

After adjusted for the war and Yankee Stadium, you're probably looking at a guy with about 300 career Win Shares, an OPS+ of 125-130 in about 7750 PA's, an excellent defender, and a career WARP3 score in the 80-85 range.

He was also a 9-time All-Star, won an MVP, and finished in the top 10 in MVP voting 5 times.

[SavoyBG]

--For all practical purposes the war cost him 1946 too. His first year back was a lost season - 74 OPS+ after posting 155 and 126 in the two years before he left and 135 and 134 in 1947-8.

We can't blame his horrible 1946 on the war because most of the others who missed two or three full years had great seasons in 1946.

[DoubleX]

We can't blame his horrible 1946 on the war because most of the others who missed two or three full years had great seasons in 1946.

You make a valid point, but I think it's perfectly justifiable to speculate that Gordon was slow to return to form after his 2 years of service. It's definitely to the credit of the players that were able to come back without missing a beat, but 2 years off is a long time and I'm sure that layoff and the experience during that time affected everyone differently. Maybe Gordon never picked up a bat and ball during that entire time, while other players made sure to find time to keep their skills honed? Plus, given how Gordon performed in the years before the war and the years after 1946, 1946 is a clear aberration with his time off providing a very plausible explanation.

[Ubiquitous]

The war did not treat everybody equally. For some the war was simply a very long spring training. For others it was a very very long hiatus away from the game. For others the hardship of the war destroyed some player's ability to play the game. I just finished reading a book about the 1946 season and not everyone reported to spring training healthy and in playing shape. Quite a few players came back injured or out of baseball shape.

[mwiggins]

You make a valid point, but I think it's perfectly justifiable to speculate that Gordon was slow to return to form after his 2 years of service. It's definitely to the credit of the players that were able to come back without missing a beat, but 2 years off is a long time and I'm sure that layoff and the experience during that time affected everyone differently. Maybe Gordon never picked up a bat and ball during that entire time, while other players made sure to find time to keep their skills honed? Plus, given how Gordon performed in the years before the war and the years after 1946, 1946 is a clear aberration with his time off providing a very plausible explanation.

Gordon also suffered numerous injuries in '46, including a torn tendon in his left hand. I'm sure it was a combination of multiple things - the war layoff, his injuries, and his issues with Dickey and the new Yankees' management. In any case, it was a complete aberration, and not the beginning of a decline or any evidence that his two lost years wouldn't have been still at the high level he showed prior to the war.

He did play baseball during the war, btw, for the Seventh Air Force team.

And even DiMaggio had an off year in 1946, hitting below .300 and posting an OPS+ lower than his years before the war (even lower than his "down" 1942 season) and after 1946.

[Paul Wendt]

I think my voting for Walters depends on how strong an adjustment should be made to his ERA+, based upon the defenses behind him. I imagine his time with the Phillies would look at least a bit better, and that could be the difference between him being included on my ballot and being left off.
Probably his prime seasons with the Reds more than balance poor fielding by the Phillies early in his pitching career. Third to first the Reds were a great infield. One might add pitcher Walters but not catcher Lombardi.

To be fair pro and con, the latest edition of DERA gives a lot more credit to Walters and implies rougly average team fielding, but there is no agreement (at the Hall of Merit) that the current edition is an improvement.

[DoubleX]

The war did not treat everybody equally. For some the war was simply a very long spring training. For others it was a very very long hiatus away from the game. For others the hardship of the war destroyed some player's ability to play the game. I just finished reading a book about the 1946 season and not everyone reported to spring training healthy and in playing shape. Quite a few players came back injured or out of baseball shape.

Cecil Travis comes most notably to mind. He was just hitting his stride at age 27 before missing almost all of the next four seasons to the war. Upon his return, he was really just a shell of the player he once was. For Travis, the war may have made the difference in being a Hall of Famer or receiving the token votes he's been receiving.

[Ace Venom]

Here's the list of first time eligible players for 1956. I haven't done any checks for age rule exceptions in a while.

Jimmy Bloodworth
Hank Borowy
Sam Chapman
Joe DiMaggio
Bobby Doerr
Al Evans
Buddy Kerr
Jack Kramer
Danny Litwhiler
Mike McCormick
Wally Moses
Ray Mueller
Bob Muncrief
Buddy Rosar
Jim Russell
Johnny Vander Meer

[Senor Octobre]

Joe DiMaggio and Bobby Doerr get my votes. Also, I'm going to try mightily to whittle my ballot down to 10 or below.

[Ace Venom]

Vander Meer is another good candidate that should get some support. We'll see how that turns out.

[mwiggins]

It'll be interesting to see if Doerr fares better or worse than Gordon has.

[Domenic]

Vander Meer is another good candidate that should get some support. We'll see how that turns out.

I was under the impression that Vander Meer was a very good candidate, as well... then I looked at his career numbers:

119-121, 2104.2 IP, 107 ERA+

Vander Meer does deserve war credit, as he missed 1944 and 1945. At the same time, though, his three best years were 1941, 1942, and 1943 - the last two of which came in a league weakened by World War II.

The back-to-back no-hitters are worth mentioning, I suppose - but I just cannot see myself voting for Vander Meer... and I don't think there's a very good argument to me made, either.

[mwiggins]

Vander Meer will get some support for his great feat, but his career (or peak for that matter) just doesn't come that close to our current Hall standards. If not for his two-fer, he'd be a one-and-done.

He did probably accomplish the greatest individual feat the game has yet seen, though. The only thing I think that could top it would be a perfect game in the World Series, but we're likely never to see that happen. So those who view it as a Hall of FAME will probably support him.

Btw, 1941 wouldn't be a war-weakened year.

[Domenic]

So those who view it as a Hall of FAME will probably support him.

Btw, 1941 wouldn't be a war-weakened year.

I clarified my post, and I do see where you are coming from... I was more shocked at how underwhelming his numbers are.

[Ubiquitous]

1942 wasn't really weakened either. The big dropoff in talent didn't happen until 1943.

[Domenic]

1942 wasn't really weakened either. The big dropoff in talent didn't happen until 1943.

That's true, but the league was losing players in 1942 - most of the greats played that year, though.

Even so, Vander Meer's numbers remain incredibly underwhelming.

[DoubleX]

It'll be interesting to see if Doerr fares better or worse than Gordon has.

I think Doerr is going to have more of a battle. I believe Gordon was the better player, especially when you factor in war credit. But I do think the two are close enough that it's hard to draw a line between them. I also Gordon/Doerr could be an illustration of our preconceptions, in that I think Doerr will be somewhat hurt by being viewed as a weaker Cooperstown selection, whereas Gordon attracts more sympathy due to being a Cooperstown outcast (until this year) despite good qualifications.

Anyway, I hope we elect both players.

[SavoyBG]

I think Doerr is going to have more of a battle. I believe Gordon was the better player,

Not so sure about that.

WIN SHARES per 162
Doerr - 22.61
Gordon - 21.07

[Domenic]

Not so sure about that.

WIN SHARES per 162
Doerr - 22.61
Gordon - 21.07

The WS/162 calculations from the Bill James New Historical Baseball Abstract are incorrect in this case...

Joe Gordon had 242 Win Shares in 1566 games... that equates to 25.03 WS/162. Bobby Doerr had 281 Win Shares in 1865 games... that equates to 24.4 WS/162.

Gordon also bests Doerr in WARP3 per 162 (7.0 to 6.3), three best seasons by Win Shares (85 to 81), five best seasons by Win Shares (134 to 127), and OPS+ (121 to 114). Both receive A's in DWS.

[SavoyBG]

The WS/162 calculations from the Bill James New Historical Baseball Abstract are incorrect in this case...

Joe Gordon had 242 Win Shares in 1566 games... that equates to 25.03 WS/162. Bobby Doerr had 281 Win Shares in 1865 games... that equates to 24.4 WS/162.



You're right, the numbers in the book are wrong. How does that possibly happen?

Well if Gordon doesn't get in this year I will now be voting for him in light of this.

[Domenic]

You're right, the numbers in the book are wrong. How does that possibly happen?

Well if Gordon doesn't get in this year I will now be voting for him in light of this.

I don't actually have the Abstract in front of me - I found their Win Share numbers by searching around B-F, incidentally. Now I'm curious to see if there are further errors of this nature, or if this is some sort of isolated incident.

[jalbright]

Appling
W. Ferrell
Gordon

[jalbright]

You're right, the numbers in the book are wrong. How does that possibly happen?

Well if Gordon doesn't get in this year I will now be voting for him in light of this.

Bill apparently has a habit of not producing his book until the last minute, which has got to be hell for the guys who do the checking of all the math and whatnot in works that would be a challenge with plenty of time.

[jalbright]

As to the Doerr/Gordon comparison, I once wrote this:


Wartime credit for what? Ok, he missed two seasons (and he hit below .250 in both '43 and '46, so giving him two more of those doesn't help him much at all), but that gives him a whopping 13 total, and as both a batsman and a fielder I think he's quite overrated.

....

And Bobby Doerr was the best second baseman of the 40s, hands down, in the field and at bat. That's why Doerr has been in the Hall for 20 years and Gordon still isn't there.

I'm not going to knock Doerr's selection to the Hall, but he's nowhere near "hands down" better than Joe Gordon. Why do I say that? Both were all-stars nine times, but Doerr had one in 1944, when Gordon was in the service. Gordon did better in MVP voting than Doerr, 1.57 MVP shares to Doerr's 0.93 (and Doerr had 0.22 in 1944, when a lot of the best ballplayers were in the military). Gordon was the Sporting News All-Star second baseman (their pick as the best in the majors) six times, Doerr twice (one of them being 1944). But the real evidence that knocks the Doerr was better than Gordon argument into a cocked hat IMO is the following from Chapter 12 in Bill James' Politics of Glory, (later renamed Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame?), in which James gives the career home/road splits of the two men:


HOME
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB avg OBP slg
Doerr 954 3554 634 1119 246 46 145 743 465 0.315 0.395 0.532
Gordon 769 2718 422 696 112 25 119 437 358 0.256 0.346 0.447

ROAD
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB avg OBP slg
Doerr 911 3539 460 923 135 43 78 504 344 0.261 0.327 0.389
Gordon 797 2989 492 854 152 27 134 538 401 0.279 0.367 0.482



If Doerr was truly better, how is it that on the road, in 114 less games and 493 less plate appearances, Gordon: scored more runs, had more doubles, more homers, more RBI, more walks, not to mention a higher average, higher OBP, and higher slugging percentage? Seems to me the "hands down" advantage Doerr enjoyed was his home park helped him a lot, while Gordon had to play in tough home parks for his skills.

[Paul Wendt]

I don't actually have the Abstract in front of me - I found their Win Share numbers by searching around B-F, incidentally. Now I'm curious to see if there are further errors of this nature, or if this is some sort of isolated incident.

From Hall of Merit discussion threads I recall vaguely that there are many errors in the "per 162" columns of tables.

I suppose that data management was co-author Jim Henzler's department. Did Bill James routinely, sometimes, or never work with the miscalculated rates? Somewhere the text may be revealing.

There is a second edition with some corrections. Maybe this one? I have asked one reader.

[RyanExpress30]

1 Johnson
2 Bottomley
3 Cuyler
4 Manush
5 Appling
6 Berger
7 Lazzeri
8 Herman
9 Klein
10 Bridges
11 Gomez
12 W. Ferrell

[Domenic]

1 Johnson
2 Bottomley
3 Cuyler
4 Manush
5 Appling
6 Berger
7 Lazzeri
8 Herman
9 Klein
10 Bridges
11 Gomez
12 W. Ferrell

Wow - Gordon knocked out with this ballot.

Gordon has, in my mind, a better case than all but Appling. . .

[mwiggins]

Looks like this might be the year for Ferrell. 81% with just 2 days left. Last election we had 32 voters. If we reach that level again, he just needs 3 of the next 6 votes to hit 75%.

[Ace Venom]

Wow - Gordon knocked out with this ballot.

He's more of a VC candidate imho. I wouldn't count on W. Ferrell getting in this year either. I generally consider that election is a possibility if the candidate has well over 80% with two days to go. He does have some votes that I have to recalculate because they were accidentally given to his brother.

[RyanExpress30]

Wow - Gordon knocked out with this ballot.

Gordon has, in my mind, a better case than all but Appling. . .

Aw sh*t . . . I never want to be the vote that knocks a guy out . . . Gordon was a borderline guy for me that I was probably going to throw on next year's ballot . . .

[mwiggins]

Wow - Gordon knocked out with this ballot.

Gordon has, in my mind, a better case than all but Appling. . .

Lazzeri over Gordon is especially interesting. Gordon doesn't even need war credit to win that battle, IMO.

Lazzeri: 121 OPS+ (7303 PA's). 148 OPS+ in best 3 seasons.
Gordon: 121 OPS+ (6536 PA's). 141 OPS+ in best 3 seasons. 1 MVP award

When you factor in Gordon's far superior defense, he blows Lazzeri away.

With WW2 credit, Gordon's at about 7,700 PA's, and his OPS+ probably goes up a couple of points.

[jjpm74]

Aw sh*t . . . I never want to be the vote that knocks a guy out . . . Gordon was a borderline guy for me that I was probably going to throw on next year's ballot . . .

He'll eventually get in either through the the standard elections or via the VC. To date, everyone who has received the support Gordon has in their first year on the ballot has eventually been elected.

[mwiggins]

He's more of a VC candidate imho. I wouldn't count on W. Ferrell getting in this year either. I generally consider that election is a possibility if the candidate has well over 80% with two days to go. He does have some votes that I have to recalculate because they were accidentally given to his brother.

I think you're underrating Gordon. Billy Herman is a 1st Ballot Hall of Famer, and Gordon's at least equal to him in terms of Hall worthiness. With war credit he ends up with only about 500 less PA's than Herman, and his OPS+ is superior (121 vs. 112). Gordon was also a better fielder and won an MVP.

And that's not factoring in that Gordon's OPS+ was supressed due to him being a RH power hitter who played most of his career in Yankee Stadium. Adjusting for that, and that rate boost his two missing peak war seasons would provide, and he's probably more of a 130 OPS+ career hitter.

[RyanExpress30]

Lazzeri over Gordon is especially interesting. Gordon doesn't even need war credit to win that battle, IMO.

Lazzeri: 121 OPS+ (7303 PA's). 148 OPS+ in best 3 seasons.
Gordon: 121 OPS+ (6536 PA's). 141 OPS+ in best 3 seasons. 1 MVP award

When you factor in Gordon's far superior defense, he blows Lazzeri away.

With WW2 credit, Gordon's at about 7,700 PA's, and his OPS+ probably goes up a couple of points.

Both borderline guys for me . . . in fact, my entire ballot is filled with borderline guys.

[Domenic]

Both borderline guys for me . . . in fact, my entire ballot is filled with borderline guys.

I think Appling is a clear-cut Hall of Famer. I would place him as the fourth best shorstop in the Hall, behind Wagner, Vaughan, and Davis, in fact.

In my mind, Gordon is also a fairly clear-cut Hall of Famer. I think he fits into the middle-of-the-pack of our current Hall of Fame second-basemen, without even adjusting for war credit. You have to dig into his numbers a bit, due to his missing time to the war and time spent in Yankee Stadium, though, and I think that has dissuaded many voters.

[SavoyBG]

--For all practical purposes the war cost him 1946 too. His first year back was a lost season - 74 OPS+ after posting 155 and 126 in the two years before he left and 135 and 134 in 1947-8. Even if you only give him credit for two years at his average performance it would be plenty enough to get him above Walter's career WS total.

According to his daughter's speech in Cooperstown today, the war had nothing to do with his bad 1946 season. He was spiked in spring training and had a tendon in his hand completely severed, and then suffered another bad injury during the year.

[nerfan]

I think Appling is a clear-cut Hall of Famer. I would place him as the fourth best shorstop in the Hall, behind Wagner, Vaughan, and Davis, in fact.

In my mind, Gordon is also a fairly clear-cut Hall of Famer. I think he fits into the middle-of-the-pack of our current Hall of Fame second-basemen, without even adjusting for war credit. You have to dig into his numbers a bit, due to his missing time to the war and time spent in Yankee Stadium, though, and I think that has dissuaded many voters.

Davis and Appling are better than Cal Ripken? Or Robin Yount?

[mwiggins]

Davis and Appling are better than Cal Ripken? Or Robin Yount?

Those guys aren't in this Hall.

[nerfan]

Those guys aren't in this Hall.

Oh. Right. :banghead:

[jjpm74]

Way to dodge the question!!!

You can't justify your vote for Henrich by pointing out other ill conceived votes for other unworthy candidates.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

If you want me to respond to you, post something constructive. I don't feel the need to justify my ballot to someone who nit picks and is just looking for another controversy to create.

So won-lost percentage is an important part of how you guage a pitcher's candidacy?

I also stated clearly that I am not voting for Allie Reynolds. I just presented the reason why he gets support (his W-L %, which is important to many people whether you or I believe it is a good measure of a pitcher's effectiveness).

[Ace Venom]

Says the guy who voted for Rick Ferrell over Wes Ferrell last year, voted for Hack Wilson and listed him as a #1 but never voted for Wally Berger, never acknowledged any inquiries as to why he supported Wilson but not Berger and voted for a number of outliers this election with no justification whatsoever.

Way to dodge the question!!!

You can't justify your vote for Henrich by pointing out other ill conceived votes for other unworthy candidates.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

If you want me to respond to you, post something constructive. I don't feel the need to justify my ballot to someone who nit picks and is just looking for another controversy to create.

I want to nip this in the bud now and remind people to look at the conduct policy.

[jalbright]

I might add to the above by Ace that site rules prohibit personal attacks. The simplest way to determine whether or not you're on thin ice is whether the post is about the person making the post, rather than the post itself. I think that the quotes from the above post fail that basic test. I don't want to have to discipline either one of you over this, but rest assured, if it continues, I most certainly will. May I suggest that one or both of you avail yourselves of the "ignore" feature. Thank you in advance for your anticipated cooperation.

[jjpm74]

I might add to the above by Ace that site rules prohibit personal attacks. The simplest way to determine whether or not you're on thin ice is whether the post is about the person making the post, rather than the post itself. I think that the quotes from the above post fail that basic test. I don't want to have to discipline either one of you over this, but rest assured, if it continues, I most certainly will. May I suggest that one or both of you avail yourselves of the "ignore" feature. Thank you in advance for your anticipated cooperation.

1. The ignore feature does not work when everyone keeps quoting the guy you are ignoring.

2. I have reported SavoyBG's personal attacks several times, but that seems to have fallen on deaf ears as it has been going on for weeks now.

[SavoyBG]

2. I have reported SavoyBG's personal attacks several times, but that seems to have fallen on deaf ears as it has been going on for weeks now.


SavoyBG has NEVER attacked you personally. He has only attacked your posts.

[jalbright]

Gentlemen,

I regard neither of the past two posts as constructive. Please stop your feuding immediately, or face the consequences of continuing behavoir I've already warned you against continuing. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

[Senor Octobre]

SavoyBG has NEVER attacked you personally. He has only attacked your posts.

Is SavoyBG Rickey Henderson in disguise?

[Fielding Marshall]

Luke Appling
Wally Berger
Jim Bottomley
Tommy Bridges
Wes Ferrell
Augie Galan
Lefty Gomez
Joe Gordon
Tommy Henrich
Bob Johnson
Buddy Myer
Cecil Travis
Bucky Walters
Lloyd Waner
Lon Warneke

And Gordon is back to 75%.

[Ace Venom]

Just noticed that Nerfan and PVNICK listed Wes Ferrell on their ballot, but voted for Rick Ferrell.

This gives Wes Ferrell 22 out of 28 votes cast, electing him in his 10th year of eligibility. In addition to Ferrell, we've elected Luke Appling and Joe Gordon in their first year of eligibility. There is going to be a five-year moratorium on recounts because I'm going to stress that voters pay attention to their ballots and get them right.

[jjpm74]

I'm a little bummed that we elected Joe Gordon so quickly. I was looking forward to some Joe Gordon vs. Bobby Doerr debate. Maybe this will help Doerr get elected, however given how similar the 2 are..

[Ace Venom]

Gordon barely squeaked in as it is with the minimum 75%.

[SavoyBG]

Gordon barely squeaked in as it is with the minimum 75%.

I would have voted for him if his WS per 162 were not messed up in the NHA. It seemed strange that a short career big peak player had such a low number in that column. With two years war credit he is clearly a hall of famer.

[jjpm74]

Here's Bobby Doerr's case which I hope the participants consider given that Joe Gordon got in on the 1st ballot:

*Lost part of 1944 (which began as his best year) and all of 1945 to war service.
*14 seasons, 115 OPS+
*9 time All-Star
*72.7 WARP 3
*Best 3 8.4, 7.9, 7.1
*Best 5 8.4, 7.9, 7.1, 6.4, 6.4
*11 All-Star level seasons according to WARP3
*DWS--A which makes him excellent defensively

vs.

Joe Gordon
*Lost 1944 and 1945 to war service
*11 seasons, 120 OPS+
*9 time All-Star
*1 MVP
*67.4 WARP3
*Best 3 8.9, 8.3, 8.1
*Best 5 8.9, 8.3, 8.1, 7.7, 7.1
*9 All-Star level seasons according to WARP 3
*DWS--A which makes him excellent defensively and equal to Doerr.

Gordon had a slightly better peak than Doerr and 1 MVP, but Doerr has him beat in career value. IMO, it's a toss up between the two. I'd like to hear more opinions and see how win shares compares the two of them from anyone who might have accurate AWS as I don't at present.

[Senor Octobre]

Here's Bobby Doerr's case which I hope the participants consider given that Joe Gordon got in on the 1st ballot:

*Lost part of 1944 (which began as his best year) and all of 1945 to war service.
*14 seasons, 115 OPS+
*9 time All-Star
*72.7 WARP 3
*Best 3 8.4, 7.9, 7.1
*Best 5 8.4, 7.9, 7.1, 6.4, 6.4
*11 All-Star level seasons according to WARP3
*DWS--A which makes him excellent defensively

vs.

Joe Gordon
*Lost 1944 and 1945 to war service
*11 seasons, 120 OPS+
*9 time All-Star
*1 MVP
*67.4 WARP3
*Best 3 8.9, 8.3, 8.1
*Best 5 8.9, 8.3, 8.1, 7.7, 7.1
*9 All-Star level seasons according to WARP 3
*DWS--A which makes him excellent defensively and equal to Doerr.

Gordon had a slightly better peak than Doerr and 1 MVP, but Doerr has him beat in career value. IMO, it's a toss up between the two. I'd like to hear more opinions and see how win shares compares the two of them from anyone who might have accurate AWS as I don't at present.

Gordon's obviously better IMHO, but Doerr belongs.

[SavoyBG]

Gordon had a slightly better peak than Doerr and 1 MVP, but Doerr has him beat in career value. IMO, it's a toss up between the two. I'd like to hear more opinions and see how win shares compares the two of them from anyone who might have accurate AWS as I don't at present.

CAREER
Doerr - 281
Gordon - 242

TOP 3 SEASONS
Doerr - 27, 27, 27
Gordon - 31, 28, 26

PER 162
Doerr - 24.40
Gordon - 25.03

Pretty even, I agree with you. Maybe a slight edge to Gordon when war credit is factored in. James has Gordon # 16 and Doerr # 18 among 2Bmen (Randolph is in between them at # 17).

[dgarza]

CAREER
Doerr - 281
Gordon - 242

TOP 3 SEASONS
Doerr - 27, 27, 27
Gordon - 31, 28, 26

PER 162
Doerr - 24.40
Gordon - 25.03

Pretty even, I agree with you. Maybe a slight edge to Gordon when war credit is factored in. James has Gordon # 16 and Doerr # 18 among 2Bmen (Randolph is in between them at # 17).Despite Gordon's rates, I give Doerr the edge in this toss-up due to career value.

WARP3

Career
Doerr - 72.7
Gordon - 67.4

Top 3
Gordon - 8.9, 8.3, 8.1
Doerr - 8.4, 7.9, 7.1

162
Gordon - 7.0
Doerr - 6.3

[jjpm74]

I tend to do the same, dgarza.

Bobby Doerr is a definite on my ballot in 1956.

[PVNICK]

I've always had a difficult time with Doerr. On the face of it his numbers are fine but his great season was 1944 when most of the stars were off to war and he played in Fenway. But he still has a 115 OPS+ and a .607 OW% so for a middle infielder over a 14 year 7000 AB career that's pretty good. But is it great or HOF material? I can't say. What tips the scale in his favor is the impression I have that he was a great fielder. The only stats I have are Fpct, which is not of much use but if it was low would not be a point in his favor, its .009 above league, and RF/9 which is close to 1/2 a play per game above league which seems incredible. Does anyone have any input on just where he stands defensively? My impression has always been that he was near all-time great territory defensively, but my sources are probably limited.

[mwiggins]

The only stats I have are Fpct, which is not of much use but if it was low would not be a point in his favor, its .009 above league, and RF/9 which is close to 1/2 a play per game above league which seems incredible. Does anyone have any input on just where he stands defensively? My impression has always been that he was near all-time great territory defensively, but my sources are probably limited.

His Defensive Win Shares grade is an A (same as Gordon's). BP has him with 118 Fielding Runs Above Average, and a career RATE of 106 (100 being average). He had two seasons with 20+ FRAA, and 5 others with more than 10 FRAA. Gordon, by comparision, had 100 FRAA and career RATE of 108. He had one season with more than 20 FRAA, and 4 others with more than 10.

I'd say Doerr was a very-good-to-great fielder, but not an all-time great defensive second baseman like McPhee or Collins.

[dgarza]

But he still has a 115 OPS+ and a .607 OW% so for a middle infielder over a 14 year 7000 AB career that's pretty good. But is it great or HOF material? I can't say.
Deleted due to ridicule at suggesting time-travel

[mwiggins]

And Doerr's OPS+ and OWP do compare well to our "modern" crop of HoF second basemen, especially when you factor in Doerr's defense.

Bobby Doerr: 115 OPS+, .607 OWP, 8028 PA
Larry Doyle: 126 OPS+, .666 OWP, 7382 PA
Joe Gordon: 120 OPS+, .593 OWP, 6536 PA
Frankie Frisch: 111 OPS+, .603 OWP, 10,100 PA
Billy Herman: 112 OPS+, .595 OWP, 8641 PA
Charlie Gehringer: 124 OPS+, .664 OWP, 10,237 PA

He's not at the level of Gehringer or Frisch, but I think he fits right in with the other 4 guys. Doyle outhit him by a ways, but Doerr was a much better fielder. I'd give Doerr the edge over Herman both at the plate and in the field.

Here's how I'd fit him in with our 20th century 2B Hall of Famers (seperated into tiers of "worthiness"):

1. Hornsby
2. Collins
3. Lajoie
---------------
4. Gehringer
5. Frisch
---------------
6. Gordon
7. Doerr
---------------
8. Herman
9. Doyle

The first three are all inner-circle elite Hall of Famers. Frisch and Gehringer are both no-brainers as well, but a significant notch below the inner-circle guys. Gordon and Doerr would both occupy the bottom half of the Hall (probably bottom third), but are still a notch above the borderline Hall of Famers. Herman and Doyle are the only two of that group I'd say are borderline/questionable Hall of Famers - and Doerr seems clearly superior to both of those players (though there's not a lot of seperation between he and Herman IMO).

[PVNICK]

thanks for the input.