1952 Best of Baseball Election [Archive]

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jalbright

07-18-2009, 10:26 AM

This is our seventeenth election in this project. The entire rules follow.

This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EDT July 31, 2009.

The prior election, and the ballots of the 1951 voters, are in this thread (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=91546)

jalbright

07-18-2009, 10:27 AM

Rules

1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.

11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration.

14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

20) I reserve the right to hold a Negro League special election in 2000 if we don't have a sufficient number in that category by then. These elections probably will be limited to voters I feel are appropriately versed on the group of players to be considered. I do wish to only use this as a last resort, however, and only to ensure that this group received what I regard as at least adequate bare minimum representation. I do not plan on sharing with you what I consider to meet those bare minimum standards, but I think that the number I am thinking of are well below the number of candidates that well informed observers believe are well qualified candidates from that group.

21) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

22) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread

jalbright

07-18-2009, 10:28 AM

The players who become eligible in 1952 are:

Appling , Luke
Bartell , Dick
Camilli , Dolph
Chandler , Spud
Cuccinello , Tony
Dickey , Bill
Foxx , Jimmie
Kress , Red
Leonard , Buck
Sewell , Rip
Smith , Hilton
Wyatt , Whit
Young , Pep

On the contributor side, Joe McCarthy joins the list of eligibles.

jalbright

07-18-2009, 10:31 AM

The 1951 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:

Player………. votes pts
Magee , Sherry 11 75
Wheat , Zack 9 64
Bell, Cool 10 55
Lyons , Ted 9 55
Radbourn , C 9 53
Waddell , Rube 9 45
Jackson , Joe 4 43
Keeler , Willie 6 37
Start , Joe 4 33
Foster, Willie 6 29
Stovey , Harry 4 27
Ruffing , Red 5 26
Johnson , HR 6 25
Groh , Heinie 3 20
Flick , Elmer 4 19
Bennett , C 2 17
Sutton , Ezra 3 17
Traynor , Pie 4 17
McPhee , Bid 3 16
Klein, Chuck 2 15
Terry , Bill 3 15
Carey , Max 2 14
Mackey, Biz 2 14
Grant , Frank 2 12
Thompson , S 1 12
Coveleski , S 4 11
Joss , Addie 1 11
Gore , George 2 10
Caruthers , B 2 8
Maranville , R 2 7
Hill , Pete... 1 6
Berger , Wally 1 5
McGinnity , Joe 1 5
Browning , Pete 1 4
Faber , Red 1 4
Jennings , H 1 4
Duffy , Hugh 1 3
Glasscock , J 1 2
Grimes , B 1 1
McCormick , J 1 1

The 1951 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:

contributor…….. votes pts
Hanlon , Ned 10 29
Landis , K 7 25
Commiskey , C 9 24
Posey, Cum 6 18
Spink, Albert 4 15
Taylor , C. I. 2 8
Selee , Frank 3 7
Shoriki, M 1 5
Pearce, Dickey 1 4
Chance , Frank 2 3
Doubleday , A 1 3
Huggins , M 3 3
Wilkinson, J L 2 3
Bolden, Ed 1 2
Conlan , C 1 1
Connolly , Tom 1 1

I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.

jalbright

07-18-2009, 10:32 AM

Members of the Best of Baseball Hall

Players

Pete Alexander
Cap Anson
Frank Baker
Ross Barnes
Dan Brouthers
Mordecai Brown
Jesse Burkett
Oscar Charleston
Fred Clarke
John Clarkson
Ty Cobb
Mickey Cochrane
Eddie Collins
Jimmy Collins
Jim O'Rourke
Roger Connor
Sam Crawford
Joe Cronin
Bill Dahlen
George Davis
Ed Delahanty
Martin Dihigo
Buck Ewing
Frankie Frisch
Lou Gehrig
Charlie Gehringer
Josh Gibson
Goose Goslin
Lefty Grove
Billy Hamilton
Gabby Hartnett
Harry Heilmann
Paul Hines
Rogers Hornsby
Carl Hubbell
Walter Johnson
Tim Keefe
King Kelly
Nap LaJoie
Pop Lloyd
Christy Mathewson
Kid Nichols
Jim O'Rourke
Eddie Plank
Bullet Joe Rogan
Amos Rusie
Babe Ruth
Louis Santop
Al Simmons
George Sisler
Tris Speaker
Turkey Stearnes
Mule Suttles
Cristobal Torriente
Dazzy Vance
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh
Paul Waner
John M. Ward
Deacon White
Smoky Joe Williams
Jud Wilson
George Wright
Cy Young

Contributors

Doc Adams
Ed Barrow
Alexander Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
Jim Creighton
Rube Foster
William Hulbert
Ban Johnson
Bill Klem
Connie Mack
John McGraw
A. J. Reach
Francis Richter
Branch Rickey
Al Spalding
Harry Wright

jalbright

07-18-2009, 10:35 AM

The complete list of eligible players:

Adams , Babe
Adams , Sparky
Altrock , Nick
Appling , Luke
Archer , Jimmy
Arlett , Buzz
Austin , Jimmy
Averill , Earl
Bancroft , Dave
Barry , Jack
Bartell , Dick
Battin , Joe
Beaumont , Ginger
Beckley , Jake
Beckwith , John
Bell , Cool Papa
Bender , Chief
Bennett , Charlie
Benton , Larry
Berg , Moe
Bergen , Marty
Berger , Wally
Berry , Charlie
Bigbee , Carson
Bishop , Max
Blades , Ray
Blue , Lu
Bluege , Ossie
Bodie , Ping
Boley , Joe
Bond , Tommy
Bottomley , Jim
Bradley , Bill
Breitenstein , Ted
Bresnahan , Roger
Bridges , Tommy
Browning , Pete
Burns , George J.
Bush , Joe
Bush , Donie
Bush , Guy
Cadore , Leon
Camilli , Dolph
Camnitz , Howie
Carey , Max
Carrigan , Bill
Caruthers , Bob
Cepeda , Perucho
Chance , Frank
Chandler , Spud
Chapman , Ray
Chase , Hal
Chesbro , Jack
Childs , Cupid
Cicotte , Eddie
Cissell , Bill
Clark , Watty
Coakley , Andy
Collins , Shano
Combs , Earle
Conroy , Wid
Coombs , Jack
Cooper , Andy
Cooper , Wilbur
Coveleski , Stan
Crandall , Doc
Cravath , Gavvy
Creighton , Jim
Criger , Lou
Critz , Hughie
Cross , Lave
Crowder , Al
Cruise , Walt
Cuccinello , Tony
Cummings , Candy
Cuyler , Kiki
Daubert , Jake
Davis , Curt
Davis , Harry
Davis , Spud
Derringer , Paul
Dickey , Bill
Dinneen , Bill
Doak , Bill
Donlin , Mike
Donovan , Bill
Dooin , Red
Doyle , Jack
Doyle , Larry
Duffy , Hugh
Dugan , Joe
Dunlap , Fred
Dykes , Jimmy
Earnshaw , George
Ehmke , Howard
Elberfeld , Kid
Elliott , Jumbo
Ens , Jewel
Evers , Johnny
Faber , Red
Falkenberg , Cy
Ferrell , Rick
Fitzsimmons , Freddie
Fletcher , Art
Flick , Elmer
Fonseca , Lew
Foster , Eddie
Foster , Willie
Foxx , Jimmie
Fraser , Chick
Galvin , Pud
Gelbert , Charlie
Glasscock , Jack
Gleason , Kid
Gonzalez , Mike
Gore , George
Gowdy , Hank
Grant , Eddie
Grant , Frank
Grantham , George
Griffith , Clark
Grimes , Burleigh
Grimm , Charlie
Groh , Heinie
Haas , Mule
Hafey , Chick
Hahn , Noodles
Haines , Jesse
Hallahan , Bill
Hargrave , Bubbles
Harris , Bucky
Harris , Vic
Herman , Babe
Herzog , Buck
Hill , Pete
Hinchman , Bill
Hooper , Harry
Hoyt , Waite
Huggins , Miller
Irwin , Charlie
Jackman , Will
Jackson , Joe
Jennings , Hughie
Johnson , Bob
Johnson , Home Run
Johnson , Judy
Jones , Charley
Jones , Fielder
Jones , Sam P.
Jordan , Tim
Joss , Addie
Judge , Joe
Kamm , Willie
Keeler , Willie
Kelley , Joe
Kerr , Dickie
Killefer , Bill
Kilroy , Matt
Klein , Chuck
Kling , Johnny
Knabe , Otto
Kremer , Ray
Kress , Red
Kuhel , Joe
Lange , Bill
Larkin , Henry
Latham , Arlie
Lazzeri , Tony
Leach , Freddy
Leach , Tommy
Leever , Sam
Leonard , Buck
Lewis , Duffy
Lindstrom , Freddie
Lobert , Hans
Long , Herman
Lowe , Bobby
Lucas , Red
Lundy , Dick
Luque , Dolf
Lyons , Denny
Lyons , Ted
Mackey , Biz
Magee , Sherry
Mancuso , Gus
Manush , Heinie
Maranville , Rabbit
Marberry , Firpo
Marquard , Rube
Martin , Pepper
Mathews , Bobby
Mays , Carl
McAleer , Jimmy
McCarthy , Tommy
McCormick , Jim
McGinnity , Joe
McGowan , Bill
McInnis , Stuffy
McLean , Larry
McManus , Marty
McPhee , Bid
McVey , Cal
Meadows , Lee
Mendez , Jose
Meusel , Bob
Milan , Clyde
Miller , Bing
Miller , Dots
Miller , Hack
Monroe , Bill
Moore , Dobie
Moran , Pat
Mostil , Johnny
Mullane , Tony
Murphy , Danny
Murray , Red
Myer , Buddy
Nehf , Art
O'Doul , Lefty
Oeschger , Joe
O'Farrell , Bob
O'Leary , Charlie
Oms , Alejandro
O'Neill , Steve
O'Neill , Tip
Orr , Dave
Pabor , Charlie
Paskert , Dode
Pearce , Dickey
Peckinpaugh , Roger
Peitz , Heinie
Pennock , Herb
Perdue , Hub
Perkins , Cy
Phillippe , Deacon
Pike , Lip
Pipp , Wally
Poles , Spotswood
Pruett , Hub
Quinn , Jack
Radbourn , Charlie
Raymond , Bugs
Redding , Dick
Remsen , Jack
Rice , Sam
Richardson , Hardy
Ring , Jimmy
Ritchey , Claude
Rixey , Eppa
Robertson , Dave
Rommel , Eddie
Root , Charlie
Roush , Edd
Rucker , Nap
Rudolph , Dick
Ruel , Muddy
Ruffing , Red
Ryan , Jimmy
Schacht , Al
Schaefer , Germany
Schalk , Ray
Schang , Wally
Schreckengost , Ossie
Schulte , Frank
Scott , Everett
Scott , Jack
Severeid , Hank
Sewell , Joe
Sewell , Luke
Sewell , Rip
Seymour , Cy
Sheckard , Jimmy
Sherdel , Bill
Shocker , Urban
Smith , Earl
Smith , Hilton
Smith , Sherry
Sparks , Tully
Stahl , Jake
Start , Joe
Steinfeldt , Harry
Stephenson , Riggs
Stovey , Harry
Street , Gabby
Suhr , Gus
Sukeforth , Clyde
Sutton , Ezra
Sweeney , Bill
Tannehill , Jesse
Taylor , Ben
Tenney , Fred
Terry , Bill
Thevenow , Tommy
Thomas , Ira
Thompson , Sam
Tiernan , Mike
Tinker , Joe
Toney , Fred
Traynor , Pie
Turner , Terry
Uhle , George
Van Haltren , George
Veach , Bobby
Waddell , Rube
Walberg , Rube
Wallace , Bobby
Wambsganss , Bill
Waner , Lloyd
Warfield , Frank
Welch , Mickey
West , Sam
Wheat , Zack
White , Sol
White , Will
Whitehill , Earl
Williams , Cy
Williams , Ken
Williamson , Ned
Willis , Vic
Wilson , Hack
Wilson , Jimmie
Witt , Whitey
Wood , Joe
Wright , Glenn
Wyatt , Whit
Yerkes , Steve
Young , Pep
Youngs , Ross
Zachary , Tom
Zimmer , Chief

The complete list of eligible contributors:

Abe , Iso
Bancroft , Frank
Bolden, Ed
Bulkely , Morgan
Carrigan, Bill
Caylor , O. P.
Chance , Frank
Commiskey , Charlie
Conlan , Charles
Connolly , Tom
Cooper , Andy
Cummings , Candy
Dinneen , Bill
Doubleday , Abner
Dreyfuss , Barney
Dunn , Jack
Elias , Al Munro
Evans, Billy
Foster , John B.
Fullerton , Hugh
Gleason , Kid
Griffith , Clark
Hanlon , Ned
Harridge, Willie
Hillerich , John
Huggins , Miller
Jennings , Hughie
Krichell, Paul
Landis , Kenesaw
Lardner , Ring
Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
McCarthy , Tommy
McCarthy, Joe
McKechnie, Bill
Mendez , Jose
Mills , A. G.
Moran , Pat
Mutrie , Jim
Navin , Frank
Norworth, Jack
Osborn , Frank
Posey, Cum
Reach , A. J.
Rice, Grantland
Robinson , Wilbert
Ruppert , Jacob
Selee , Frank
Shibe , Ben
Shoriki, Matsutaro
Spink, Albert
Stallings , George
Street, Gabby
Taylor , C. I.
Thayer , Ernest
Warfield , Frank
White , Sol
Wilkinson , J. L.
Wilson , Horace

leecemark

07-18-2009, 10:39 AM

1) Jimmie Foxx
2) Bill Dickey
3) Luke Appling
4) Buck Leonard
5) Charlie Bennett
6) Charlie Radbourne
7) Rube Waddell
8) Sherry Magee
9) Ted Lyons
10) Zack Wheat
11) Willie Foster
12) Home Run Johnson

1) Dickey Pearce
2) Commissioner Landis
3) Charlie Commiskey
4) Ned Hanlon
5) Joe McCarthy

--Newcomers Foxx, Dickey, Appling and Leonard all jump to the top of the ballot. They replace the 3 elected players and push Rabbit Maranville off theballot for now.

jalbright

07-18-2009, 10:42 AM

My ballot:

Players
1. Jimmie Foxx
2. Bill Dickey
3. Luke Appling
4. Sherry Magee
5. Zack Wheat
6. Ted Lyons
7. Cool Papa Bell
8. Red Ruffing
9. Rube Waddell
10. Willie Foster
11. Home Run Johnson
12. Buck Leonard

Contributors
1. Kennesaw Landis
2. Joe McCarthy
3. Ned Hanlon
4. Cum Posey
5. Charlie Commiskey

I supported only one inductee last time, Joe Cronin, and I have a lot of guys I want to add this time. That means a lot of shuffling. The contributor side is easiest, as Miller Huggins drops off to make room for Joe McCarthy. Joe goes in at #2, so everybody else drops back. On the player side, I'm adding Jimmie Foxx, Bill Dickey and Luke Appling in the top 3 spots in that order, and Buck Leonard comes in at the bottom of the ballot. To make room, it was comparatively easy to drop two guys who haven't yet mustered much support beyond my vote, Burleigh Grimes and Joe McGinnity. The last choice was painful, but I'm going to drop Harry Stovey because he's only garnered the support of three other voters. Of course, the guys getting dropped will reappear in due time, most likely sooner rather than later.

The only 1951 induction I question for our hall by the time we're done is Cartwright, for reasons I've already stated. I don't feature running a "don't elect candidate X" campaign, particularly this early in the process, even were the matter not a done deal. As it is, it's irrelevant. As for Sisler and Collins, I just think they were inducted earlier than I would have done.

Domenic

07-18-2009, 11:04 AM

01. Jimmie Foxx
02. Sherry Magee
03. Joe Jackson
04. Heinie Groh
05. Bill Dickey
06. Cool Papa Bell
07. Luke Appling
08. Zack Wheat
09. Rube Waddell
10. Wally Berger
11. Willie Foster
12. Buck Leonard

01. Joe McCarthy
02. Kenesaw Landis
03. Ned Hanlon
04. Cum Posey
05. Miller Huggins

dgarza

07-18-2009, 11:16 AM

Players

1. Jimmie Foxx
2. Sam Thompson
3. Joe Jackson
4. Willie Keeler
5. Chuck Klein
6. Charley Radbourn
7. Luke Appling
8. Bill Dickey
9. Harry Stovey
10. Zack Wheat
11. Bill Terry
12. Pud Galvin

Contributors

1. Kenesaw Landis
2. Joe McCarthy
3. Abner Doubleday
4. Charles Commiskey
5. Charles Conlon

Paul Wendt

07-18-2009, 11:24 AM

Players
1 Foxx
2 Appling
3 LEONARD
4 Dickey
5 JOHNSON G
6 Radbourn
7 Gore
8 Start
9 Lyons T
10 Groh
11 Flick
12 McPhee

Contributors
1 Comiskey
2 Posey
3 Hanlon
4 Wilkinson
5 Selee

jalbright

07-18-2009, 11:25 AM

Buck Leonard

Years played: 1933-1950
Main position: 1B

All Star selections: in Negro League All Star game in 11 seasons

MVPs: 3 ESPN, 4 James and 1 Holway

League champions on: 9 American summers, 1 Cuban Winter, 1 California Winter

League leading performances: In American summers, was in top five in average five times (led once), in the top three in homers eight times (led twice). In Puerto Rico, led in homers once and was second one time in runs.

Expert rankings: #1 first baseman in CPDD historian’s poll, #1 first baseman in Courier poll, first in SABR poll, #1 first baseman in Museum poll, James’ #1 Negro League 1B and 65th overall, Clark’s third team 1B and on Team #2 in All World selections.

He certainly wasn’t helped at least in his power numbers in Griffith Stadium in American summer play, but even so, his data in Shades of Glory are impressive. He averaged .320 for his American summer career with a .421 OBP and .527 slugging behind 22.4 homers per 550 AB. I rank him just behind McCovey among first basemen.

I think his best comp is a relatively recent 1B, Will Clark. Leonard probably played in a higher offensive era, but he's a little better and played a little longer. That's based on my understanding that the projection tries to account for the fact Leonard played a lot in Griffith Stadium, a notorious pitcher's park. Staying with that assumption, if we change 4 of Clark's homers per 162 games to singles and add 38 walks in those same 162 games, we're really closing in on Leonard:

hitter...... hand pos PA avg obp slg years
Leonard... L 1B 8666 308 417 476 1934-53
Clark....... L 1B 8283 303 384 497 1986-2000
adjusted... L 1B 8746 303 417 476 -----------

All those extra walks mean Leonard has significantly more value than Clark, as does the extra 380+ PA

Dogdaze

07-18-2009, 05:41 PM

Players:

1. Jimmie Foxx
2. Bill Dickey
3. Luke Appling
4. Zack Wheat
5. Buck Leonard
6. Willie Foster
7. Cool Papa Bell
8. Old Hoss Radbourn
9. Biz Mackey
10. Hilton Smith
11. Frank Grant
12. Sherry Magee

Contributors:

1. C. I. Taylor
2. Al Spink
3. Cum Posey
4. Joe McCarthy
5. Charles Comiskey

Tiboreau

07-18-2009, 06:42 PM

1. Jimmie Foxx
2. Luke Appling
3. Bill Dickey
4. Buck Leonard
5. Ted Lyons
6. Elmer Flick
7. Willie Foster
8. Home Run Johnson
9. Red Ruffing
10. Pete Hill
11. Heinie Groh
12. Hughie Jennings

jaxxr

07-19-2009, 07:07 AM

1 Joe Jackson
2 Jimmy Foxx
3 Addie Joss
4 Buck Leonard
5 Willie Keeler
6 Bid McPhee
7 Bill Dickey
8 Rube Waddell
9 Bill Terry
10 Chuck Klien
11 Luke Appling
12 Pie Traynor

PVNICK

07-20-2009, 05:45 AM

1. Jimmie Foxx
2. Bill Dickey
3. Luke Appling
4. Hoss Radbourne
5. Pie Traynor
6. Bob Caruthers
7. Willie Keeler
8. Stan Coveleski
9. Bill Terry
10. Sherry Magee
11. Cool Papa Bell
12. Zack Wheat

1. McCarthy
2. Albert Spink
3. Landis
4. Hanlon
5. Selee

swapped in Wheat for Waddell, Buck Leonard is close as well.

Captain Cold Nose

07-20-2009, 06:06 AM

1. Jimmie Foxx
2. Buck Leonard
3. Bill Dickey
4. Luke Appling
5. Willie Keeler
6. Cool Papa Bell
7. Charles Radbourne
8. Harry Stovey
9. Sherry Magee
10. Zack Wheat
11. Max Carey
12. Ted Lyons

Contributors

1. Ned Hanlon
2. Charles Comiskey
3. Frank Chance
4. Kenesaw Landis
5. Joe McCarthy

jalbright

07-20-2009, 06:12 AM

We now have a quorum for the player ballot. We're two away on the player side.

On another note, I won't have ready access to my computer for most of the week. My brother mods, though, will be watching this and other forums I'm involved with to ensure things stay in order.

Freakshow

07-20-2009, 07:34 AM

1 Jimmie Foxx
2 Buck Leonard
3 Bill Dickey
4 Luke Appling
5 Joe Jackson
6 Zack Wheat
7 Sherry Magee
8 Joe Start
9 Ted Lyons
10 Bid McPhee
11 Red Faber
12 Elmer Flick

Now that Joe Jackson has "shuffled off this mortal coil" the punishment need no longer be meted out. I can now honor him for the great player that he was.

J W

07-20-2009, 08:47 AM

Players

1. Jimmie Foxx
2. Buck Leonard
3. Joe Jackson
4. Cool Papa Bell
5. Bill Dickey
6. Luke Appling
7. Biz Mackey
8. Frank Grant
9. Rube Waddell
10. Sherry Magee
11. Stan Coveleski
12. Charley Radbourn

Contributors

1. Joe McCarthy
2. Ned Hanlon
3. Alfred Spink
4. Ed Bolden
5. Tom Connolly

jjpm74

07-20-2009, 09:44 AM

Players:

1. Jimmie Foxx
2. Ezra Sutton
3. Bill Dickey
4. Joe Start
5. Red Ruffing
6. Luke Appling
7. Charlie Bennett
8. Rabbit Maranville
9. Pie Traynor
10. Buck Leonard
11. Cool Papa Bell
12. Ted Lyons

Contributors:

1. Joe McCarthy
2. Matsutaro Shoriki
3. Cum Posey
4. Charley Comiskey
5. Ned Hanlon

jalbright

07-25-2009, 10:01 AM

In 1953, the contributors will add J. G. Taylor Spink and Ty Tyson. Spink may take some of Albert's support, and graft some on to it.

As for the players, we'll be adding:

Brown , Ray
Chapman , Ben
Ferrell , Wes
Gomez , Lefty
Jurges , Billy
Lombardi , Ernie
Lopez , Al
Moore , Jo-Jo
Pearson , Monte
Rolfe , Red
Selkirk , George
Wells , Willie
Werber , Billy

I'll be voting for Brown and Wells right away, and Ferrell will get my vote unless elected before I get down to him. Lombardi and Gomez will garner support at least in time. The rest aren't a threat to be elected.

jalbright

07-25-2009, 10:17 AM

We haven't regained any of the three eligible voters who we lost last election (AG2004, Ubiquitous, and Sockeye) and there are two who voted last election who haven't yet in this one, namely AstrosFan and Brad Harris. I'll PM the latter two if they haven't voted by Monday morning.

We're exactly at a quorum on the contributor ballot.

jalbright

07-26-2009, 10:05 AM

We've got 10 players who have garnered at least 50% of the vote, including the current leaders (in alphabetical order):

Luke Appling
Cool Papa Bell
Bill Dickey
Jimmie Foxx
Buck Leonard
Ted Lyons
Sherry Magee
Charlie Radbourn
Rube Waddell
Zack Wheat

Three will be elected this time, and I'd expect the rest to make it in the next decade or so.

Similarly, we have five contributors who have pulled at least 50% of the vote:

Charlie Commiskey
Ned Hanlon
Kennesaw Landis
Joe McCarthy
Cum Posey

One of them will make it this time, and I'd expect the rest to make it within a decade.

Paul Wendt

07-26-2009, 12:15 PM

Some may never be elected but the twelve leading holdovers from 1951 comprise five pitchers, six outfielders, and old-time firstbaseman Joe Start (one of those whose election is uncertain).

>> [quoting the introduction by Jim Albright]
> The 1951 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
Player………. votes pts
Magee , Sherry 11 75
Wheat , Zack 9 64
Bell, Cool 10 55
Lyons , Ted 9 55
Radbourn , C 9 53
Waddell , Rube 9 45
Jackson , Joe 4 43
Keeler , Willie 6 37
Start , Joe 4 33
Foster, Willie 6 29
Stovey , Harry 4 27
Ruffing , Red 5 26
...
<<

We may expect election of a catcher and shortstop this year, which will put the fielding positions c-3b-ss-2b nearly on a par with lf-cf-rf-1b in the count of all members (24 and 25 beside 17 pitchers).

See the distribution of members by debut and fielding position (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1556080&postcount=12) (current thru 1951).

jalbright

07-26-2009, 03:14 PM

I went with the 50% mark as at that level, even if you don't add votes, you have a shot at building enough support to be elected. A guy who's doing well with 3 or 4 voters can make the top 10 or 12, but can't go much further than that without more voters. Most of the four vote guys will build on what they've reached so far and make it, but that scenario is not certain for all of them.

Brad Harris

07-27-2009, 02:51 PM

Rankings
1. Jimmie Foxx
2. Buck Leonard
3. Luke Appling
4. Bill Dickey
5. Sherry Magee
6. Zack Wheat
7. Ted Lyons
8. Joe Start
9. Rube Waddell
10. Ezra Sutton
11. Red Ruffing
12. Home Run Johnson

Contributors
1. Joe McCarthy
2. Charles Comiskey
3. Frank Selee
4. Al Spink
5. Ned Hanlon

jalbright

07-29-2009, 08:35 AM

Bump. We've got just over 60 hours to go in this election as I type. I'll put in pieces about Ray Brown and Willie Wells in the next day or so.

jalbright

07-29-2009, 08:43 AM

Willie Wells--ELECTED BBF HOF AUGUST 2005

He has plenty of support among observers, including:
1) enshrinement in Cooperstown;
2) named second team shortstop (to Pop Lloyd) in the Pittsburgh Courier poll;
3) 11th in SABR poll of Negro League greats;
4) selected by Bill James as the second best shortstop in Negro League history (again to Pop Lloyd) in his latest Historical Abstract;
5) selected by Bill James as the 86th best player of all time in his latest Historical Abstract;
6) in the Baseball Think Factory "Hall of Merit". There they consider him a close match in overall contributions to Luke Appling (more about that later); and
7) selected as the first team shortstop in a 1993 poll of Negro League Museum members.

The Baseball Think Factory projections see him as a 294/371/425 career hitter with 2839 career hits. There is only one retired player with more hits not in the HOF, Harold Baines at 2866, and he was an outfielder/DH, not a shortstop. The top shortstop in hits not in the Hall is Bill Dahlen, with 2457. I think that leaves little question he belongs in the Hall. But where to rank him?

Looking at the projected win shares may help. The Baseball Think Factory guys have him with 397 for his career, 131 for his best 5 consecutive, and top three of 29, 28 and 28. He's darned close to Appling (378; 141; 40, 29, 29), but I think just a tad below him by this measure. I would put him above the major leaguer I have immediately below Appling, George Davis (398;119;31, 29, 28).

He was a winner, part of 5 pennant winners in the Negro Leagues and 2 Cuban league champs. He also won an MVP award in Cuba. In 1942 he was "identified as one of the top five players in the [Negro Leagues} when prospects to go to the major leagues were discussed" Jim Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues, page 827.

He tattooed the major league pitchers he got to face in exhibitions, going 46 for 115 with 6 homers for a .369 average.

Just to round out his case, here's some biographical info from William McNeil's Cool Papas and Double Duties, pages 208-209:
Wells was an outstanding defensive shortstop with wide range, a sure glove, and an accurate throwing arm. He offset a lack of strenght in his throwing arm with quick reflexes and a fast release . . .

[H]e was more than a glove, however. He was one of the top hitters in the league, with a career batting average of .328 . . . [who] hit the ball with authority. He led the league in home runs in 1929 . . . .

Wells also starred in other leagues . . . [I]n Mexico . . . he hit .323 . . . He spent the winter months playing ball either in the Cuban Winter League or the California Winter League. He played seven years in Cuba, compiling a batting average of .320, . . . [leading] the league twice in home runs. . . . He also tormented white pitchers [many of them major leaguers] in California for eight years, batting .301.

Here are his Negro League stats from Shadows of Glory, expressed in 550 AB form:

AB runs hits 2B 3B HR RBI BB Sac SB avg obp slg
550 123 175 33 8 19 7 66 11 19 .319 .391 .510

When it comes to a major league comp, there just aren't many shortstops that durable, so I've got to start with Luke Appling, subtract 9 hits and 16 walks, but turn 3 of the hits he did have into homers, another 3 into triples, and 10 more into doubles per 162 games. Appling was a B defender, and Wells had at least that high a reputation. I'd rather have Wells looking at it this way, but it's close:

hitter...... hand pos PA avg obp slg years
Wells...... R SS 10836 294 371 425 1924-45
Appling.... R SS 10243 310 399 398 1930-50
adjusted.. R SS 10004 294 371 425 ………….

jalbright

07-29-2009, 08:48 AM

Ray Brown ELECTED BBF HOF

The only truly notable accolades I found for him is before he was inducted to Cooperstown is the fact he finished among the top six pitchers in the 1993 poll of Negro League Museum members. He just was recently elected into the Baseball Think Factory "Hall of Merit".

The Baseball Think Factory guys project him to a major league record of 270-190, which translates to 238 Fibonacci Win Points. They seem to think he would have had 320-330 career win shares, but they didn't break that total down. An earlier estimate put him at 299 career win shares, 134 for his best five consecutive, and a best three of 43, 43 and 30. I think that earlier, more conservative evaluation places him between Joe McGinnity (260 career WS, 162 best 5 consecutive, top 3 of 42, 40 and 35 and 260 Fibonacci) and Early Wynn (308 career, 110 best 5 consecutive, top 3 of 28, 25 and 24 and 221 Fibonacci). I think the projection is credible, especially when you look at what he did everywhere he played (Source: page 96 of Cool Papas and Double Duties by William McNeil):

League................. Won Lost Pct
Negro………………….... 146 55 0.726
Mexican………………... 51 36 0.586
Cuban Winter………… 46 20 0.697
Puerto Rican Winter…. 29 8 0.784
Total……………………... 272 119 0.696

All the above-mentioned leagues had at least some top level talent. Quite a record, even if in the Negro Leagues he played for the Homestead Grays at their dominating best.

According to Jim Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues, page 124:
The Homestead Grays ace had a sinker, slider and a fine fastball, but his curveball was his best pitch. So confident was Ray in all of his pitches that he would throw a curve with a 3-0 count . . . . Later in his career, he developed an effective knuckleball, and he had good control of all his pitchers. . . . [He had] a nineteen-year career . . . [highlighted by] a perfect game in a seven inning contest against the Chicago American Giants in 1945.

William McNeil in Cool Papas and Double Duties, page 96 adds:
He was a dangerous man at the plate, rapping the ball at a .316 clip. . . .
He pitched the Grays to nine consecutive Negro National League pennants between 1937 and 1945.

In terms of major league comps, he compares nicely to Ted Lyons (actually, he looks a little better, most notably in IP):

pitcher hand ERA+ IP W L years
Brown R 119 4454 297 214 1931-49
Lyons R 118 4166 260 230 1923-46

Freakshow

07-29-2009, 09:33 AM

leecemark

07-29-2009, 09:44 AM

--Ray Brown is definately in the discussion for third best Negro League pitcher ever (Behind Satch and Smokey Joe). He may even be the favorite for the spot. He wasn't particularly colorfull and lacks a catchy nickname, but that is his only "demerit" in contrast to better known pitchers. As pitchers I'm pretty sure the HOM got it wrong placing DiHigo ahead of Brown. DiHigo was the better player, but Brown was the better pitcher.

Freakshow

07-29-2009, 09:57 AM

As pitchers I'm pretty sure the HOM got it wrong placing DiHigo ahead of Brown. DiHigo was the better player, but Brown was the better pitcher.Dihigo was grouped with the pitchers because that was deemed to be his primary position. In the poll they considered Dihigo's entire career, not just pitching.

leecemark

07-29-2009, 10:11 AM

--DiHigo was not all that special as a pitcher, at lleast in the Negro Leagues. He was better in Cuba and maybe thats enought to make him a pitcher rather than a position player. I think he was a better player than pitcher, but finding a primary position for him is a more difficult proposition than most.

jalbright

07-29-2009, 12:05 PM

Dihigo is an odd case. It seems he was primarily a pitcher in Cuba, and he hit much more like one there than when he was stateside. When he was in the US, he hit like the position player that was his primary role, but pitched much more like one than in Cuba, too. He was darned good at whatever job he was focused on, though.

jalbright

07-31-2009, 10:24 AM

A bump to remind anyone who hasn't voted yet that as I write, we're in the last 12 hours of this election.

jalbright

08-01-2009, 06:42 AM

This election, we're down to 14 player ballots and 11 contributor ones. I'll wait to post the official count, but it's safe to say that we've elected Luke Appling, Bill Dickey and Jimmie Foxx among the players and Joe McCarthy as a contributor.

jalbright

08-01-2009, 09:08 AM

The official results for the Players:

Players…………… votes points
Foxx, Jimmie 14 167
Dickey, Bill 14 129
Appling, Luke 14 118
Leonard, Buck 12 94
Jackson , Joe 5 50
Magee , Sherry 9 50
Wheat , Zack 9 46
Radbourn , C 7 42
Bell, Cool 7 39
Lyons , Ted 8 35
Keeler , Willie 4 31
Waddell , Rube 6 27
Start , Joe 4 24
Foster, Willie 5 20
Ruffing , Red 4 19
Johnson , HR 5 17
Bennett , C 2 14
Groh , Heinie 3 14
Sutton , Ezra 2 14
Traynor , Pie 3 13
Klein, Chuck 2 11
McPhee , Bid 3 11
Thompson , S 1 11
Flick , Elmer 3 10
Joss , Addie 1 10
Mackey, Biz 2 10
Terry , Bill 3 10
Stovey , Harry 2 9
Caruthers , B 1 7
Coveleski , S 2 7
Grant , Frank 2 7
Gore , George 1 6
Maranville , R 1 5
Berger , Wally 1 3
Hill , Pete……. 1 3
Smith, Hilton 1 3
Carey , Max 1 2
Faber , Red 1 2
Galvin , Pud 1 1
Jennings , H 1 1

And for the contributors:

Contributors……. votes points
McCarthy, Joe 10 37
Hanlon , Ned 9 24
Landis , K 6 23
Commiskey , C 8 22
Posey, Cum 5 14
Spink, Albert 4 13
Pearce, Dickey 1 5
Selee , Frank 3 5
Taylor , C. I. 1 5
Shoriki, M 1 4
Chance , Frank 1 3
Doubleday , A 1 3
Bolden, Ed 1 2
Wilkinson, JL 1 2
Conlan , C 1 1
Connolly , Tom 1 1
Huggins , M 1 1