1951 Best of Baseball Election [Archive]

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jalbright

07-04-2009, 11:59 AM

This is our sixteenth election in this project. The entire rules follow.

This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EDT July 17, 2009.

The prior election, and the ballots of the 1950 voters, are in this thread (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=91179)

jalbright

07-04-2009, 11:59 AM

Rules

1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.

11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration.

14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

20) I reserve the right to hold a Negro League special election in 2000 if we don't have a sufficient number in that category by then. These elections probably will be limited to voters I feel are appropriately versed on the group of players to be considered. I do wish to only use this as a last resort, however, and only to ensure that this group received what I regard as at least adequate bare minimum representation. I do not plan on sharing with you what I consider to meet those bare minimum standards, but I think that the number I am thinking of are well below the number of candidates that well informed observers believe are well qualified candidates from that group.

21) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

22) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread

jalbright

07-04-2009, 12:04 PM

The players who become eligible in 1951 are:

Bridges , Tommy
Cepeda , Perucho
Cronin , Joe
Derringer , Paul
Gelbert , Charlie
Harris , Vic
Kuhel , Joe
Suhr , Gus
Waner , Lloyd

On the contributor side, Bill McKechnie joins the list of eligibles.

jalbright

07-04-2009, 12:10 PM

The 1950 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:

Player……………… votes points
Sisler , George 12 86
Magee , Sherry 12 76
Collins , Jimmy 10 73
Radbourn , C 9 55
Wheat , Zack 9 55
Jackson , Joe 5 53
Lyons , Ted 8 50
Keeler , Willie 6 37
Start , Joe 5 35
Waddell , Rube 7 31
Bell, CP 6 30
Bennett , C 4 29
Ruffing , Red 4 29
Traynor , Pie 6 26
Groh , Heinie 4 25
Johnson , HR 3 25
Coveleski , S 4 24
Foster, Willie 6 23
Sutton , Ezra 3 21
Stovey , Harry 3 20
McPhee , Bid 4 17
Grant , Frank 3 15
Klein, Chuck 2 14
Mackey, Biz 2 14
Caruthers , B 2 13
Maranville , R 2 13
Terry , Bill 3 13
Flick , Elmer 4 12
McGinnity , Joe 3 12
Thompson , S 1 12
Joss , Addie 1 11
Pearce , Dickey 2 11
Carey , Max 1 9
Bresnahan , R 2 8
Chance , Frank 1 8
Hill , Pete…….. 2 7
Gore , George 1 6
Rixey , Eppa 1 6
Tinker, Joe 1 5
Berger , Wally 1 4
Evers , Johnny 1 4
Faber , Red 2 4
Galvin , Pud 1 4
Browning , Pete 1 3
Duffy , Hugh 1 2
Jennings , H 1 2
Johnson , Bob 1 1

The 1950 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:

contributor votes points
Commiskey , C 10 30
Cartwright , A 6 29
Landis , K 8 28
Hanlon , Ned 8 21
Posey, Cum 6 16
Spink, Albert 5 16
Taylor , C. I. 2 8
Pearce, Dickey 2 6
Shoriki, M 2 6
Caylor , O. P. 1 5
Selee , Frank 3 5
Dunn , Jack 1 4
Wilkinson, JL 2 4
Doubleday , A 1 3
Bolden, Ed 1 2
Chance , Frank 1 2
Huggins , M 2 2
Conlan , C 1 1
Connolly , Tom 1 1
Griffith , C 1 1

I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.

jalbright

07-04-2009, 12:16 PM

Members of the Best of Baseball Hall

Players

Pete Alexander
Cap Anson
Frank Baker
Ross Barnes
Dan Brouthers
Mordecai Brown
Jesse Burkett
Oscar Charleston
Fred Clarke
John Clarkson
Ty Cobb
Mickey Cochrane
Eddie Collins
Roger Connor
Sam Crawford
Bill Dahlen
George Davis
Ed Delahanty
Martin Dihigo
Buck Ewing
Frankie Frisch
Lou Gehrig
Charlie Gehringer
Josh Gibson
Goose Goslin
Lefty Grove
Billy Hamilton
Gabby Hartnett
Harry Heilmann
Paul Hines
Rogers Hornsby
Carl Hubbell
Walter Johnson
Tim Keefe
King Kelly
Nap LaJoie
Pop Lloyd
Christy Mathewson
Kid Nichols
Jim O'Rourke
Eddie Plank
Bullet Joe Rogan
Amos Rusie
Babe Ruth
Louis Santop
Al Simmons
Tris Speaker
Turkey Stearnes
Mule Suttles
Cristobal Torriente
Dazzy Vance
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh
Paul Waner
John M. Ward
Deacon White
Smoky Joe Williams
Jud Wilson
George Wright
Cy Young

Contributors

Doc Adams
Ed Barrow
Henry Chadwick
Jim Creighton
Rube Foster
William Hulbert
Ban Johnson
Bill Klem
Connie Mack
John McGraw
A. J. Reach
Francis Richter
Branch Rickey
Al Spalding
Harry Wright

jalbright

07-04-2009, 12:18 PM

The complete list of eligible players:

Adams , Babe
Adams , Sparky
Altrock , Nick
Archer , Jimmy
Arlett , Buzz
Austin , Jimmy
Averill , Earl
Bancroft , Dave
Barry , Jack
Battin , Joe
Beaumont , Ginger
Beckley , Jake
Beckwith , John
Bell , Cool Papa
Bender , Chief
Bennett , Charlie
Benton , Larry
Berg , Moe
Bergen , Marty
Berger , Wally
Berry , Charlie
Bigbee , Carson
Bishop , Max
Blades , Ray
Blue , Lu
Bluege , Ossie
Bodie , Ping
Boley , Joe
Bond , Tommy
Bottomley , Jim
Bradley , Bill
Breitenstein , Ted
Bresnahan , Roger
Bridges , Tommy
Browning , Pete
Burns , George J.
Bush , Joe
Bush , Donie
Bush , Guy
Cadore , Leon
Camnitz , Howie
Carey , Max
Carrigan , Bill
Caruthers , Bob
Cepeda , Perucho
Chance , Frank
Chapman , Ray
Chase , Hal
Chesbro , Jack
Childs , Cupid
Cicotte , Eddie
Cissell , Bill
Clark , Watty
Coakley , Andy
Collins , Jimmy
Collins , Shano
Combs , Earle
Conroy , Wid
Coombs , Jack
Cooper , Andy
Cooper , Wilbur
Coveleski , Stan
Crandall , Doc
Cravath , Gavvy
Creighton , Jim
Criger , Lou
Critz , Hughie
Cronin , Joe
Cross , Lave
Crowder , Al
Cruise , Walt
Cummings , Candy
Cuyler , Kiki
Daubert , Jake
Davis , Curt
Davis , Harry
Davis , Spud
Derringer , Paul
Dinneen , Bill
Doak , Bill
Donlin , Mike
Donovan , Bill
Dooin , Red
Doyle , Jack
Doyle , Larry
Duffy , Hugh
Dugan , Joe
Dunlap , Fred
Dykes , Jimmy
Earnshaw , George
Ehmke , Howard
Elberfeld , Kid
Elliott , Jumbo
Ens , Jewel
Evers , Johnny
Faber , Red
Falkenberg , Cy
Ferrell , Rick
Fitzsimmons , Freddie
Fletcher , Art
Flick , Elmer
Fonseca , Lew
Foster , Eddie
Foster , Willie
Fraser , Chick
Galvin , Pud
Gelbert , Charlie
Glasscock , Jack
Gleason , Kid
Gonzalez , Mike
Gore , George
Gowdy , Hank
Grant , Eddie
Grant , Frank
Grantham , George
Griffith , Clark
Grimes , Burleigh
Grimm , Charlie
Groh , Heinie
Haas , Mule
Hafey , Chick
Hahn , Noodles
Haines , Jesse
Hallahan , Bill
Hargrave , Bubbles
Harris , Bucky
Harris , Vic
Herman , Babe
Herzog , Buck
Hill , Pete
Hinchman , Bill
Hooper , Harry
Hoyt , Waite
Huggins , Miller
Irwin , Charlie
Jackman , Will
Jackson , Joe
Jennings , Hughie
Johnson , Bob
Johnson , Home Run
Johnson , Judy
Jones , Charley
Jones , Fielder
Jones , Sam P.
Jordan , Tim
Joss , Addie
Judge , Joe
Kamm , Willie
Keeler , Willie
Kelley , Joe
Kerr , Dickie
Killefer , Bill
Kilroy , Matt
Klein , Chuck
Kling , Johnny
Knabe , Otto
Kremer , Ray
Kuhel , Joe
Lange , Bill
Larkin , Henry
Latham , Arlie
Lazzeri , Tony
Leach , Freddy
Leach , Tommy
Leever , Sam
Lewis , Duffy
Lindstrom , Freddie
Lobert , Hans
Long , Herman
Lowe , Bobby
Lucas , Red
Lundy , Dick
Luque , Dolf
Lyons , Denny
Lyons , Ted
Mackey , Biz
Magee , Sherry
Mancuso , Gus
Manush , Heinie
Maranville , Rabbit
Marberry , Firpo
Marquard , Rube
Martin , Pepper
Mathews , Bobby
Mays , Carl
McAleer , Jimmy
McCarthy , Tommy
McCormick , Jim
McGinnity , Joe
McGowan , Bill
McInnis , Stuffy
McLean , Larry
McManus , Marty
McPhee , Bid
McVey , Cal
Meadows , Lee
Mendez , Jose
Meusel , Bob
Milan , Clyde
Miller , Bing
Miller , Dots
Miller , Hack
Monroe , Bill
Moore , Dobie
Moran , Pat
Mostil , Johnny
Mullane , Tony
Murphy , Danny
Murray , Red
Myer , Buddy
Nehf , Art
O'Doul , Lefty
Oeschger , Joe
O'Farrell , Bob
O'Leary , Charlie
Oms , Alejandro
O'Neill , Steve
O'Neill , Tip
Orr , Dave
Pabor , Charlie
Paskert , Dode
Pearce , Dickey
Peckinpaugh , Roger
Peitz , Heinie
Pennock , Herb
Perdue , Hub
Perkins , Cy
Phillippe , Deacon
Pike , Lip
Pipp , Wally
Poles , Spotswood
Pruett , Hub
Quinn , Jack
Radbourn , Charlie
Raymond , Bugs
Redding , Dick
Remsen , Jack
Rice , Sam
Richardson , Hardy
Ring , Jimmy
Ritchey , Claude
Rixey , Eppa
Robertson , Dave
Rommel , Eddie
Root , Charlie
Roush , Edd
Rucker , Nap
Rudolph , Dick
Ruel , Muddy
Ruffing , Red
Ryan , Jimmy
Schacht , Al
Schaefer , Germany
Schalk , Ray
Schang , Wally
Schreckengost , Ossie
Schulte , Frank
Scott , Everett
Scott , Jack
Severeid , Hank
Sewell , Joe
Sewell , Luke
Seymour , Cy
Sheckard , Jimmy
Sherdel , Bill
Shocker , Urban
Sisler , George
Smith , Earl
Smith , Sherry
Sparks , Tully
Stahl , Jake
Start , Joe
Steinfeldt , Harry
Stephenson , Riggs
Stovey , Harry
Street , Gabby
Suhr , Gus
Sukeforth , Clyde
Sutton , Ezra
Sweeney , Bill
Tannehill , Jesse
Taylor , Ben
Tenney , Fred
Terry , Bill
Thevenow , Tommy
Thomas , Ira
Thompson , Sam
Tiernan , Mike
Tinker , Joe
Toney , Fred
Traynor , Pie
Turner , Terry
Uhle , George
Van Haltren , George
Veach , Bobby
Waddell , Rube
Walberg , Rube
Wallace , Bobby
Wambsganss , Bill
Waner , Lloyd
Warfield , Frank
Welch , Mickey
West , Sam
Wheat , Zack
White , Sol
White , Will
Whitehill , Earl
Williams , Cy
Williams , Ken
Williamson , Ned
Willis , Vic
Wilson , Hack
Wilson , Jimmie
Witt , Whitey
Wood , Joe
Wright , Glenn
Yerkes , Steve
Youngs , Ross
Zachary , Tom
Zimmer , Chief

The complete list of eligible contributors:

Abe , Iso
Bancroft , Frank
Bolden, Ed
Bulkely , Morgan
Carrigan, Bill
Cartwright , Alexander
Caylor , O. P.
Chance , Frank
Commiskey , Charlie
Conlan , Charles
Connolly , Tom
Cooper , Andy
Cummings , Candy
Dinneen , Bill
Doubleday , Abner
Dreyfuss , Barney
Dunn , Jack
Elias , Al Munro
Evans, Billy
Foster , John B.
Fullerton , Hugh
Gleason , Kid
Griffith , Clark
Hanlon , Ned
Harridge, Willie
Hillerich , John
Huggins , Miller
Jennings , Hughie
Krichell, Paul
Landis , Kenesaw
Lardner , Ring
Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
McCarthy , Tommy
McKechnie, Bill
Mendez , Jose
Mills , A. G.
Moran , Pat
Mutrie , Jim
Navin , Frank
Norworth, Jack
Osborn , Frank
Posey, Cum
Reach , A. J.
Rice, Grantland
Robinson , Wilbert
Ruppert , Jacob
Selee , Frank
Shibe , Ben
Shoriki, Matsutaro
Spink, Albert
Stallings , George
Street, Gabby
Taylor , C. I.
Thayer , Ernest
Warfield , Frank
White , Sol
Wilkinson , J. L.
Wilson , Horace

jalbright

07-04-2009, 12:24 PM

My ballot:

Players
1. Joe Cronin
2. Sherry Magee
3. Zack Wheat
4. Harry Stovey
5. Ted Lyons
6. Cool Papa Bell
7. Red Ruffing
8. Joe McGinnity
9. Rube Waddell
10. Willie Foster
11. Home Run Johnson
12. Burleigh Grimes

Contributors
1. Kennesaw Landis
2. Ned Hanlon
3. Cum Posey
4. Charlie Commiskey
5. Miller Huggins

My contributor ballot is unchanged. I've put Cronin in at my top spot, and Grant Johnson has appeared on my ballot along with the return of Burleigh Grimes.

jjpm74

07-04-2009, 12:25 PM

Players:

1. Ezra Sutton
2. Joe Start
3. Jimmy Collins
4. Joe Cronin
5. Red Ruffing
6. Charlie Bennett
7. Rabbit Maranville
8. George Sisler
9. Pie Traynor
10. Cool Papa Bell
11. Ted Lyons
12. Zack Wheat

Contributors:

1. Matsutaro Shoriki
2. Cum Posey
3. C. I. Taylor
4. Charley Comiskey
5. Ned Hanlon

jalbright

07-04-2009, 12:31 PM

I hadn't remembered the fact that when I did the Suburbs of Cooperstown comparisions, I came up with Luke Appling for him, based on his age 30 and beyond performances in batting average in the Negro Leagues and Cuba. Few shortstops have competed for such titles, much less at advanced ages, and the fact Johnson was good enough to do it multiple times even in the shorter blackball seasons helps the Appling comparison. He may well not be Appling, but if he's even halfway between that and the borderline HOFer I had before that realization, he belongs on my ballot now. Some additional information:

Home Run Johnson

First of all, when we talk about Hall of Famers, some of the key things we’re looking for are: 1) long careers, 2) all-stars, 3) MVP and/or Cy Young Award winners, 4) contributors to championship teams, 5) career leaders, and 6) single season leaders in key categories. It doesn’t matter what league you’re talking about, these issues are ones you start with in such a discussion. We probably want to make the accomplishments in leagues outside the majors a little more impressive than it would take in the majors to include guys in the Hall of Fame in order to account for the fact these other leagues were rarely if ever of the same quality as the majors. Nevertheless, these largely objective points of reference provide an excellent starting point. The connection to champion teams is especially important in the Negro Leagues, as the players were often paid a portion of the gate at games (including barnstorming contests), and the best teams drew the most people to games and thus could pay better, setting up a cycle whereby the best players tended to be drawn to the best teams.

Another pre 1920 Negro Leaguer, and therefore one I have to rely solely on the more subjective records to justify. Pages 434-435 of Riley's Biogrpahical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues is the source of this biography:

In a career that started before the turn of the century, Johnson was a right-handed slugger in the deadball era . . . . [H]e starred with some of the most outstanding clubs of the era, including the 1903 Cuba X-Giiants, the 1905 Philadelphia Giants, and the 1909 Brooklyn Royal Giants before joining . . . Rube Foster's Lincoln Giants in 1913 . . . .[S]hortstop was his best position, [but when teamed with Pop Lloyd] Johnson used his versatility to shift across to the keystone sack. . . .

The star infielder was also a winner in Cuba, captaining the Havana Reds to a winter league championship, and became the first American to win a batting title on the island. During his five years there he averaged .319 . . . .

Johnson was a natural hitter, and his confidence, patient pitch selection and superior batting eye enabled him to hit all kinds of pitching. A smart batter, he was cool under pressure. [From 1910 to 1913 he recorded averages against all oppositon of .397, .374, .413 and .371--and this was in a deadball game]. . . . A line-drive hitter, Johnson placed an emphasis on making contact rather than swinging for the fences and, playing in the deadball era, his power was comparable to that of the Athletics' Frank Baker.

Other facts:
Those averages from 1910 to 1913 documented in the Riley quote came from ages 36 to 39.
Johnson was on the team John Holway names as the best black team of 1896, the Page Fence Giants
He also was on two Cuban Winter League champs (captaining the 1908-09 team).
He had a 21 year Negro League career as a middle infielder and played professionally until he was 58
Holway didn't start his all-star teams until Johnson was 36, but he got one at age 39 (1913), when he won a batting title among Eastern Negro League teams
He led the 1905 champion Philadelphia Giants in batting average.
He led the 1908-1909 Cuban champs in games played, hits, doubles and average, finishing only two points behind the batting average champ of the league.
He led the 1911-1912 Cuban champs in hits and had a .410 average for them
He played in Cuba at ages 33-38 and led in hits twice and finished second in batting average twice, hitting .319 overall while
playing middle infield spots, twice for champion clubs.
The Baseball Think Factory guys inducted him into their "Hall of Merit".
In 1910, at age 36, he faced the pitchers from the World Series champion Philadelphia A's in Cuba and went 11 for 24 (.458).

In summary, he had a long career as a middle infielder for many championship clubs, even late in his career. Despite the sparse documentation for much of his career, it can be shown he performed quite well for a long time. I think there's enough to support his case for the HOF and the BBF HOF.

jalbright

07-04-2009, 12:42 PM

Sherry Magee ELECTED BBF HOF

He's in the Baseball Think Factory "Hall of Merit". Here's a few reasons why:

354 career win shares, 13th among LF listed in latest BJHA and 84th best all time among all players per the Win Share book;
His best five consecutive win shares given in BJHA is also 13th among LF in that book;
Discounting Elmer E. Smith's pitching, his best three seasons are 5th best among LF in the BJHA

From Baseball-reference.com:
4 time RBI champ, second once and fourth two other times;
6 times in top 5 in steals;
twice led league in runs created and in top five four other times;

35 Black Ink points, 42nd all-time among hitters; and
210 Gray Ink points, 33rd all-time among hitters.

STATS did its own evaluation of All-Stars of the deadball era, and Magee is third amond all OF (behind only Cobb and Speaker, though he had the advantage of not competing against either of those guys for a slot) with eight such selections, including the 1910 NL MVP

Paul Wendt

07-04-2009, 01:10 PM

Here is the preface to my ballot posted late in 1950. After years without any pitcher in the middle or bottom of my ballot, only the elite at the top, I had slipped Charley Radbourn into the middle in 1949.

About two dozen players seem roughly equal to me. With some reevaluation in progress, I have bumped Joe Start ahead of the major league thirdbasemen and I have slipped pitchers Vance and Lyons into the middle of my ballot ahead of Start. They are all among the two dozen.

I have not settled on ranking Vance and Lyons so high, for I am comfortable with only parts of my reevaluation.

At long last I selected a personal "Top X", namely my Top 112 from the Hall of Merit (hence no one who has played in the majors since 2003). Dihigo and Wilson are in there, but no one else who is on the board here.

There are 28 pitchers in my 112, precisely 25%. Because 25% seems to me a low share of pitchers in the longer term, I judged that I should move pitchers up a little, in the ranks that now compose most of our ballot.

So far, so good.

Meanwhile I wonder whether I am overrating players from the 1920s and 1930s. The Negro Leagues and the white majors were running side by side. Should we recognize more players from that time as the Best in Baseball? (yes) How many more? As a group we have already gone a long way toward recognizing players at double the rate, and my own 1950 elevation of Vance and Lyons fits that trend. I don't really agree with it yet.

The next article gives the distribution of members by debut decade with some breakdowns.

Paul Wendt

07-04-2009, 01:58 PM

This table now covers 64 players, anticipating the elections of Collins, Magee, Sisler, and Cronin. Those four debuted in the 1890s to 1920s, one each decade.

UPDATE -07-26: now covering the 63 members after 1951 (not Magee)
The Best of Baseball over time -- debut decades

1860s 70s 80s 90s 00s 10s 1920s decade of debut in high-level competition

3 5 8 10 11 9 17 ; all (63, all members after the 1951 election)

0 0 0 0 2 4 5 ; NeL (11, Negro Leagues and prior blackball)
3 5 8 10 9 5 12 ; MLB (52, major leagues and prior pro clubs)

by fielding position, grouped
0 0 3 2 6 2 4 ; pitcher (17)
3 1 1 5 3 2 7 ; c-3-s-2 (22)
0 4 4 3 2 5 6 ; L-C-R-1 (24)

1860s 70s 80s 90s 00s 10s 1920s

Blue marks the 1890s and 1900s debuts, merely as a hopeful aid to the reader.

AstrosFan

07-04-2009, 02:50 PM

1) Joe Cronin
2) Max Carey
3) Sherry Magee
4) Zack Wheat
5) Jimmy Collins
6) Rube Waddell
7) Cool Papa Bell
8) Ted Lyons
9) Harry Stovey
10) Willie Foster
11) Red Ruffing
12) Stan Coveleski

1) Cartwright
2) Hanlon
3) Landis
4) Posey
5) Comiskey

Paul Wendt

07-04-2009, 04:20 PM

JL Wilkinson picked up another supporter and Frank Selee enjoys a few of them so I am sticking with the former and adding the latter to my ballot. Don't take the ranking or the sequence of appearance too seriously.

Contributors
1 Comiskey
2 Posey
3 Hanlon
4 Wilkinson
5 Selee

Offhand, I expect to vote for Bill McKechnie someday, but he is not yet on the doorstep with Clark Griffith, CI Taylor, M Shoriki, and umpire Tom Connolly.

The same goes for Spink, Caylor, Jack Dunn and Ed Bolden --not yet on the doorstep. How long will the project and I continue? How will the pace of selection, one annually, match the arrival of stronger candidates? I don't plan to look ahead much, but to live it.

Journalists Al Spink and OP Caylor were founding fathers of the St Louis Cardinals and Cincinnati Reds respectively, and among the founders and officers of the American Association. At the same time, Spink was a poor businessman; The Sporting News would have floundered without brother Charles. OP Caylor's National Daily Base Ball Gazette issued only a few numbers in 1887. I don't yet know whether I will vote for either one of them here.

leecemark

07-04-2009, 05:01 PM

1) Joe Cronin
2) Jimmy Collins
3) Charlie Bennett
4) Charlie Radbourne
5) Rube Waddell
6) Sherry Magee
7) Ted Lyons
8) Zack Wheat
9) Willie Foster
10) George Sisler
11) Home Run Johnson
12) Rabbit Maranville

1) Alexander Cartwright
2) Dickey Pearce
3) Commissioner Landis
4) Charlie Commiskey
5) Ned Hanlon

jalbright

07-04-2009, 05:12 PM

Tiboreau

07-04-2009, 09:43 PM

1. Joe Cronin
2. Ted Lyons
3. Elmer Flick
4. Willie Foster
5. Home Run Johnson
6. Red Ruffing
7. Pete Hill
8. Heinie Groh
9. Hughie Jennings
10. Willie Keeler
11. Jimmy Collins
12. George Gore

dgarza

07-05-2009, 12:26 PM

Players

1. Sam Thompson
2. Chuck Klein
3. Joe Jackson
4. George Sisler
5. Harry Stovey
6. Willie Keeler
7. Bill Terry
8. Charley Radbourn
9. Pete Browning
10. Hugh Duffy
11. Cool Papa Bell
12. Jim McCormick

Contributors

1. Kenesaw Landis
2. Alexander Cartwright
3. Abner Doubleday
4. Charles Commiskey
5. Charles Conlon

PVNICK

07-06-2009, 05:36 AM

1. George Sisler
2. Joe Cronin
3. Jimmy Collins
4. Hoss Radbourne
5. Pie Traynor
6. Bob Caruthers
7. Willie Keeler
8. Stan Coveleski
9. Bill Terry
10. Sherry Magee
11. Cool Papa Bell
12. Rube Waddell

1. Albert Spink
2. Landis
3. Hanlon
4. Selee
5. Chance

I read a comment last year about it being premature on Shoriki so he's off for now.

Captain Cold Nose

07-06-2009, 06:13 AM

1. George Sisler
2. Joe Cronin
3. Willie Keeler
4. Cool Papa Bell
5. Charles Radbourne
6. Jimmy Collins
7. Harry Stovey
8. Sherry Magee
9. Zack Wheat
10. Max Carey
11. Ted Lyons
12. Stan Coveleski

Contributors

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Ned Hanlon
3. Charles Comiskey
4. Frank Chance
5. Kenesaw Landis

Domenic

07-06-2009, 08:42 AM

01. Joe Cronin
02. Sherry Magee
03. Joe Jackson
04. Heinie Groh
05. Cool Papa Bell
06. Zack Wheat
07. Rube Waddell
08. Wally Berger
09. George Sisler
10. Jimmy Collins
11. Willie Foster
12. Charley Radbourn

01. Alexander Cartwright
02. Kenesaw Landis
03. Ned Hanlon
04. Cum Posey
05. Miller Huggins

Dogdaze

07-06-2009, 07:27 PM

Players:

1. Joe Cronin
2. Jimmy Collins
3. George Sisler
4. Zack Wheat
5. Willie Foster
6. Cool Papa Bell
7. Old Hoss Radbourn
8. Biz Mackey
9. Frank Grant
10. Sherry Magee
11. Rube Waddell
12. Home Run Johnson

Contributors:

1. C. I. Taylor
2. Al Spink
3. Cum Posey
4. Charles Comiskey
5. JL Wilkinson

bambambaseball

07-06-2009, 10:35 PM

jalbright

07-07-2009, 05:03 AM

Players:

1. Cool Papa Bell
2. Home Run Johnson
3. Perucho Cepeda
4. Pete Hill
5. Andy Cooper
6. Willie Foster
7. Bill Jackman
8. Biz Mackey
9. Jose Mendez
10. Spotswood Poles
11. Alejandro Oms
12. Dick Redding

Contributers:

1. Cum Posey
2. C.I. Taylor
3. Matsutaro Shoriki
4. Sol While
5. Iso Abe

These are the best of the best and they dont get enough attention!

I'm a supporter of the Negro Leaguers, but I don't think that all these guys are better than all the eligible major leaguers. If you care to justify this ballot on the basis of the talent of the players, I'll consider it--but until or unless I receive such a justification, this ballot seems to me not in keeping with the requirement of an honest ranking and thus not within the rules. If you try and justify the ballot, one thing I will want to hear is an explanation of why you abandoned the major leaguers you had supported over a good number of these guys as recently as last election.

jalbright

07-07-2009, 05:05 AM

Dogdaze' ballot means we have met the quorum in both the player and contributor portions of the voting.

jalbright

07-07-2009, 08:39 AM

bambambaseball

07-07-2009, 10:02 AM

As an addendum to my comment on bambam's ballot, I must emphasize I am not seeking to muzzle discussion. I do not think ballots like that help the discussion much anyway--discussion of the candidates does. If we had several hundred voters rather than less than 20, perhaps such ballots could be tolerated. In such a small voting group, they're unacceptable unless justified as a legitimate expression of the voter's opinion.

I voted for them cause they are all solid HOFers unlike the remaining major leaguers and 'cause no one seems to be supporting them. Maybe theres a case for Joe Croin but otherwise the remaining major leaguers are borderline guys who played in a segregated league. I cant justify voting for them when there are so many better Negro League guys on the balott. That doesnt mean that I wont come back to them later on.

This isnt any different from the guys like sockeye who dont vote for any Negro Leguers but you allow to participate. If I cant do that then why dont you tell me who I can vote for since you have lots of balotts that all over the place but you are picking on the one that focuses on the best minotity players!:rolleyes:

jalbright

07-07-2009, 10:10 AM

I voted for them cause they are all solid HOFers unlike the remaining major leaguers and 'cause no one seems to be supporting them. Maybe theres a case for Joe Croin but otherwise the remaining major leaguers are borderline guys who played in a segregated league. I cant justify voting for them when there are so many better Negro League guys on the balott. That doesnt mean that I wont come back to them later on.

This isnt any different from the guys like sockeye who dont vote for any Negro Leguers but you allow to participate. If I cant do that then why dont you tell me who I can vote for since you have lots of balotts that all over the place but you are picking on the one that focuses on the best minotity players!:rolleyes:

Say what you want--you're misusing the ballot to make a political statement. It will not count. If you choose to change it, I'll consider that ballot if and when you submit it.

I don't like every ballot that's cast--but, unlike your ballot, I don't have solid proof that's not genuinely how they rank the players. If we had ten times the number of voters, ballots such as yours wouldn't cause enough problems to merit disqualifying them. But when that allows over 5% of the ballots to be manipulated, it encourages others to do the same. I'm not going to go down that route. I'll shut down the project before that happens.

bambambaseball

07-07-2009, 10:13 AM

Say what you want--you're misusing the ballot to make a political statement. It will not count. If you choose to change it, I'll consider that ballot if and when you submit it.

I don't like every ballot that's cast--but, unlike your ballot, I don't have solid proof that's not genuinely how they rank the players. If we had ten times the number of voters, ballots such as yours wouldn't cause enough problems to merit disqualifying them. But when that allows over 5% of the ballots to be manipulated, it encourages others to do the same. I'm not going to go down that route. I'll shut down the project before that happens.

Im not changing it. I gave my reasons and they are not political. It is cause with the exception of maybe Joe Cronin, they are all better players! If you want to be racist and not allow it, thats your deal.

bambambaseball

07-07-2009, 10:23 AM

:silent: And if I didnt make an honest effort to rank these guys, then why did I go through the trouble of picking the best of the best and ranking them instead of just listing the first 12 of them alphabeticlly? :silent:

jalbright

07-07-2009, 11:04 AM

Im not changing it. I gave my reasons and they are not political. It is cause with the exception of maybe Joe Cronin, they are all better players! If you want to be racist and not allow it, thats your deal.

Fine. Your ballot still doesn't count, and, should you submit another like it, you'll forfeit your right to vote in this project ever again. As for the name calling, I'll consult with my fellow mods on how that should be addressed.

bambambaseball

07-07-2009, 11:18 AM

As for the name calling, I'll consult with my fellow mods on how that should be addressed.

Im not name calling. Im stating a fact!

Captain Cold Nose

07-07-2009, 11:46 AM

I voted for them cause they are all solid HOFers unlike the remaining major leaguers and 'cause no one seems to be supporting them. Maybe theres a case for Joe Croin but otherwise the remaining major leaguers are borderline guys who played in a segregated league. I cant justify voting for them when there are so many better Negro League guys on the balott. That doesnt mean that I wont come back to them later on.

This isnt any different from the guys like sockeye who dont vote for any Negro Leguers but you allow to participate. If I cant do that then why dont you tell me who I can vote for since you have lots of balotts that all over the place but you are picking on the one that focuses on the best minotity players!:rolleyes:

Just a poster here.

I'd love to hear more about Andy Cooper. Please go on.

Incidentally, a fact means there is something factual in basis. Your allegations don't have a shred of fact behind them. I'd suggest you move away from that very faulty view and try to actually back up your votes.

bambambaseball

07-07-2009, 11:53 AM

Just a poster here.

I'd love to hear more about Andy Cooper. Please go on.

Incidentally, a fact means there is something factual in basis. Your allegations don't have a shred of fact behind them. I'd suggest you move away from that very faulty view and try to actually back up your votes.

Its kind a hard when the mods here are racist towards me and do stuff like delete someone elses mean posts but let him stay posting but ban me when I defend myself!

Andy Cooper was a junk ball pitcher who dominated the Negro Leagues on one of the best teams for a long period of time. A similar pithcer would be Mike Mussina. He had excellent control and led the league many times in wins.

I dont care if my balott isnt counted. The person running this project doesnt like me and never has anyway so I cant win. This is my last post on this site.

jalbright

07-07-2009, 11:55 AM

Im not name calling. Im stating a fact!

Even if it were factual, truth is not a defense here for that infraction at Fever. As for the allegation your comments are factual, I will rest on my entire record both in this thread, forum and site to refute it. Those are facts anybody can look up.

Captain Cold Nose

07-07-2009, 12:24 PM

Its kind a hard when the mods here are racist towards me and do stuff like delete someone elses mean posts but let him stay posting but ban me when I defend myself!

Andy Cooper was a junk ball pitcher who dominated the Negro Leagues on one of the best teams for a long period of time. A similar pithcer would be Mike Mussina. He had excellent control and led the league many times in wins.

I dont care if my balott isnt counted. The person running this project doesnt like me and never has anyway so I cant win. This is my last post on this site.

I wouldn't give yourself that much credit in regards to the project leader's feelings about you. It's always been about the project.

I'd look up the word racism and see how it actually has been used in real situations over the years before accusing somebody simply because they asked you to revise your ballot as it does not fit with the project. Or at least justify it using a bit more than sweeping statements. Your allegations here are completely hollow and extremely insulting to those who actually know what it's like to be victimized due to something beyond their control. You don't have that here. At all. If those are your feelings then maybe it is best you do leave this site. You may know a little about baseball but your perspective and take on things seems lacking. Good luck.

J W

07-07-2009, 12:53 PM

Players

1. Joe Cronin
2. Joe Jackson
3. Cool Papa Bell
4. Biz Mackey
5. Frank Grant
6. George Sisler
7. Rube Waddell
8. Sherry Magee
9. Stan Coveleski
10. Charley Radbourn
11. Pie Traynor
12. Bob Caruthers

Contributors

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Ned Hanlon
3. Alfred Spink
4. Ed Bolden
5. Tom Connolly

jalbright

07-10-2009, 10:43 AM

There are six voters who voted last time who have yet to vote at all: AG2004, Brad Harris, Freakshow, jaxxr, Sockeye, and Ubiquitous. Add to that Paul Wendt in the player ballot, and you've got a complete list of those voting last time who are eligible and haven't cast the same ballots as last time. (Bambam is not eligible.) I realize this is a popular week for vacations, and I hope these folks cast their ballots. If they haven't by Monday morning, I'll send them reminder PMs.

jalbright

07-10-2009, 11:01 AM

Next year will have a significant addition in the contributors list in Joe McCarthy (the Yankee, Cub and Red Sox skipper, not the red-baiting senator from Wisconsin).

It's a large player class, with bulk coming from Dick Bartell, Dolph Camilli, Spud Chandler, Tony Cuccinello, Red Kress, Rip Sewell, Whit Wyatt and Pep Young. Some of these guys may draw some support, but I'm doubtful they'll seriously threaten to get elected. However, there are also five Hall of Famers, several of whom will vault to the top of at least most ballots: Jimmie Foxx, Bill Dickey, Luke Appling, Buck Leonard, and Hilton Smith. Based on the BBF HOF, Smith will probably have to wait, but the others could easily battle it out for the three available slots in 1952.

jaxxr

07-10-2009, 11:17 AM

1 Joe Jackson
2 Addie Joss
3 George Sisler
4 Willie Keeler
5 Bid McPhee
6 Joe Cronin
7 Rube Waddell
8 Bill Terry
9 Chuck Klien
10 Pie Traynor
11 Elmer Flick
12 Cool Papa Bell

jalbright

07-10-2009, 11:18 AM

There's no doubt Joe McCarthy had a lot of talent to work with in his three stops, but:

1) He had success in all three spots, winning 90 or more games twice in each Boston and Chicago, and only failing to win 90 or more four times in his 15 full seasons with the Yankees, and two of the "failures" were 88 and 89 wins;

2) His teams won seven World Series titles with the Yankees, four in a row and six in eight years, one of the misses in the 6 for 8 including a pennant and the other "merely" winning 88 games;

3) His teams won 100 or more games six times;

4) He was able to keep his teams on top, one of the hardest feats in the game, even with great talent;

5) He was the only manager to get Hack Wilson to perform;

6) Look at how he does against managers all-time:
.....a) 8th in wins;
.....b) top winning percentage;
.....c) second in best total wins minus losses;
.....d) fifth in wins * win percentage;
.....e) second in Fibonacci points for managers (c plus d).

jalbright

07-11-2009, 10:09 AM

For the record on Negro Leaguers:

We have already elected 11 such player candidates plus one contributor, 4 of whom didn't get into Cooperstown until 2006 (and we've only elected 60 players and 15 contributors);

There are four more prime player candidates (Leonard, Ray Brown, Wells and Paige) who aren't even eligible yet (not to mention Trouppe, Day, Dandridge, Willard Brown, or the at least five seasons in both the Negro Leagues and major leagues like Doby, Irvin, Minoso, and Campanella); and

In the 1950 election, we had seven Negro Leaguers in the top 25 (the two electees of Dihigo and Wilson, plus Bell, G. Johnson, W. Foster, Grant and Mackey); and

Everyone active who has participated in multiple elections has voted for more than one Negro Leaguer.

Brad Harris

07-11-2009, 10:24 AM

I voted for them cause they are all solid HOFers unlike the remaining major leaguers and 'cause no one seems to be supporting them. Maybe theres a case for Joe Croin but otherwise the remaining major leaguers are borderline guys who played in a segregated league. I cant justify voting for them when there are so many better Negro League guys on the balott. That doesnt mean that I wont come back to them later on.

This isnt any different from the guys like sockeye who dont vote for any Negro Leguers but you allow to participate. If I cant do that then why dont you tell me who I can vote for since you have lots of balotts that all over the place but you are picking on the one that focuses on the best minotity players!:rolleyes:
How can you knock the quality of the all-white league but not knock the quality of the all-black league more so? Sure MLB was a "segregated" league, lacking all the best baseball talent in the world, but that statement is even more true of the Negro Leagues. So if the whites in the majors weren't facing the top talent available, that goes doubly so for the black players in the negro leagues. It's a two-edged sword.

Paul Wendt

07-11-2009, 11:41 AM

jalbright

07-11-2009, 02:02 PM

How should the relative maturity of black professional baseball in the 1920s and 1930s pertain to the numbers of players we recognize from that time?

There were few black players of major league quality in the 19-aughts and earlier, many in the 1920s and later. Elmer Flick (mlb debut 1898) competed with the "best baseball talent in the world" --the best skills, at least-- as Earl Averill (1929) did not. Sherry Magee (1905) competed with more of the best than did Goose Goslin (1921).

It's hard to get a handle on blackball players up to 1920, though Cuba and the California Winter League give us some help. There probably was more talent than we know or can clearly identify. But that's a whole sector of the population left out due to the problems inherent in giving the guys cut out by the color line their due. I don't think that entitles the pre-1920 crowd to numbers equal to the 1920-1950 Negro League plus major league numbers.

The 1930s guys may not have competed with as much of the best as the earlier guys, but they compensated by playing in a situation where more people understood the game better through time-tested strategies/methods. If there's a bit of a bubble of larger representation for that 1920-1950 era solely due to the inclusion of Negro Leaguers, I'll more than happily live with it. There's no perfect way to resolve in retrospect all the problems caused in determining the very best in the game by segregation. We've got to muddle through it somehow.

jaxxr

07-11-2009, 06:32 PM

A proper evaluation of many old time negro leaguers is very difficult.

Hearsay, legend, lore, and colorful purported ability, such as jumping under the covers before the light switch darkens the room, are supported by incomplete stats, barnstorming, exhibition games, and irregular seasonal records. The "benefit of a doubt", is probably most properly given to many, however,

Some feel a white boy who died very young, and who still holds the second best best ERA in the entire history of official MLB, is not worthy of similar speculations, assumptions, and "what if" estimates, accorded many negro leaguers.

jalbright

07-11-2009, 07:34 PM

Chino Smith was a black boy who played very well and died young, and he doesn't get half the attention of Joss. Dobie Moore has a hard time because he suffered a horrendous injury outside of baseball in his early 30's and there weren't organized Negro Leagues until he was 27.

More to the point, we know what Joss did. We do have to fill in the gaps for the Negro Leaguers to account for the fact they were excluded solely because of their skin color. Yes, they get some consideration Joss doesn't in that regard--but if we didn't, the racism they experienced in their baseball careers would be continued. On the other hand, many of us give credit for wartime military service to both races. The problem with injuries and illness is once you start down that road, where do you draw the line? It's much easier to deal with military service or the color line in that regard. Do pitchers who have a great year or three but then fry their arms qualify? How about guys who had terrible beanings? Does Ray Chapman get any breaks (and he was until the time of his death the best shortstop born in 1891, and there is at least one HOFer in that group)? How about Tony Conigliaro or Dickie Thon?

jaxxr

07-12-2009, 09:36 AM

More to the point, we know what Joss did.

Indeed we do,
Joss has the second best ERA of all time !
Joss has the fourth best ERA + of any HOF starting pitcher !
Joss has the best WHIP of any pitcher ever !
Joss has the best control via BB/9, of any 20th century HOF pitcher !
Joss has the second best shutout percentage of any HOF hurler.
Joss has an outstanding .623 W-L %.

Yet that is enough for Cooperstown, and NOT enough for many herein.

A DEATH at the age of 31 cant be compared to a bad back, a sore arm, contractual disputes, or most career ending items, the lack of modern antibiotics, treatments, and medical knowledge, might be somewhat similar to the extensions, speculations, or projections, rightfully allowed some negro league stars.

jalbright

07-12-2009, 10:02 AM

OK, we can renew the whole arguments for and against Joss. He might get in here, he might not--but the truth is, his lack of durability has knocked him down to the point where few of us are willing to put him on our ballots right now.

jalbright

07-12-2009, 10:21 AM

Here's a list of eligible players who were inducted into the BBF HOF and got less support than Joss last election:

Carl Mays, Burleigh Grimes, Larry Doyle, Wilbur Cooper, Cupid Childs, Earl Averill, John Beckwith, Perucho Cepeda, Hack Wilson, Vic Willis, George Van Haltren, Max Carey, Roger Bresnahan, Pete Hill, George Gore, Eppa Rixey, Red Faber, Pud Galvin, Hugh Duffy, Joe Sewell, Edd Roush, Hardy Richardson, Alejandro Oms, Tony Mullane, Dobie Moore, Jose Mendez, and Cal McVey

My quick count gives me 28 such players. It's by no means over for Joss, but I think it fair to say most of us have him more in around this group than the current leaders.

I might add that the following 10 BBF HOFers were 10 or less points ahead of Joss:

Harry Stovey, Frank Grant, Bid McPhee, Biz Mackey, Bob Caruthers, Rabbit Maranville, Bill Terry, Elmer Flick, Joe McGinnity and Sam Thompson

Freakshow

07-13-2009, 07:33 AM

1 Joe Cronin
2 Jimmy Collins
3 Zack Wheat
4 George Sisler
5 Sherry Magee
6 Joe Start
7 Ted Lyons
8 Bid McPhee
9 Red Faber
10 Elmer Flick
11 Charley Radbourn
12 Ezra Sutton

Brad Harris

07-13-2009, 01:45 PM

1. Joe Cronin
2. Sherry Magee
3. George Sisler
4. Zack Wheat
5. Ted Lyons
6. Joe Start
7. Jimmy Collins
8. Rube Waddell
9. Ezra Sutton
10. Red Ruffing
11. Willie Keeler
12. Home Run Johnson

1. Charles Comiskey
2. Frank Selee
3. Al Spink
4. Ned Hanlon
5. Miller Huggins

jalbright

07-15-2009, 01:55 PM

As I type this, just over 56 hours left in this election, with four voters from last election yet to vote in one or more sections of the ballot.

Paul Wendt

07-16-2009, 05:11 PM

Players

1 Cronin
2 Grant Johnson
3 Radbourn
4 Gore
5 Start
6 Lyons T
7 Groh
8 Colllins J
9 Flick
10 McPhee
11 Glasscock
12 Magee

Jack Glasscock returns. He is a good shortstop match for secondbaseman Bid McPhee. McPhee may be the best of all at fielding his position, which Glassock was not, but shortstop is a more important position.

Elmer Flick makes his first appearance here, and not at thebottom; next year he may pass the thirdbasemen. He put up several MVP-type seasons, although he was usually! overshadowed on his own team by one of the greatest players, Delahanty in Philadelphia, Lajoie in Philadelphia and Cleveland.
(more explanation from 2009 perspective, deleted)

Sherry Magee also makes his first appearance. There are a few more early players whom I prefer but seems a close call and that may be my failing. Since I'm not sure that his election is premature, as for Heilmann, I have put him in the 12 slot while I have the chance.

Magee may have been his league's MVP once or twice, and he was usually one of its best players beside Hans Wagner, but there was not always a player of Delahanty's or Lajoie's caliber among them. He sported a hot temper and missed some playing time by his faults.

--
I have previously named catcher Charlie Bennett and he will return. Some others I expect to name "soon", pending the rate of new arrivals, are 2b Hardy Richardson, 3b Ezra Sutton, lf Zack Wheat, cf Max Carey, pitchers Bob Caruthers and Stan Coveleski. I am not high on good long careers such as Sutton, Wheat and Carey but of course those players do bubble to the top here along with everyone else. Among them I expect that I will vote for the early players before most others do, and I'll vote for the recent ones after most others do.

jalbright

07-17-2009, 06:42 PM

Only a little over three hours to go as I write.

jalbright

07-18-2009, 10:20 AM

We dropped to 15 voters in the player ballot, and 12 in the contributors. Hopefully, at least some of the departures were on vacation and will return soon. On the player side, we inducted Joe Cronin, Jimmy Collins and George Sisler. The final results are as follows:

Player………. votes pts
Cronin, Joe 14 158
Sisler , George 11 91
Collins , Jimmy 11 84
Magee , Sherry 11 75
Wheat , Zack 9 64
Bell, Cool 10 55
Lyons , Ted 9 55
Radbourn , C 9 53
Waddell , Rube 9 45
Jackson , Joe 4 43
Keeler , Willie 6 37
Start , Joe 4 33
Foster, Willie 6 29
Stovey , Harry 4 27
Ruffing , Red 5 26
Johnson , HR 6 25
Groh , Heinie 3 20
Flick , Elmer 4 19
Bennett , C 2 17
Sutton , Ezra 3 17
Traynor , Pie 4 17
McPhee , Bid 3 16
Klein, Chuck 2 15
Terry , Bill 3 15
Carey , Max 2 14
Mackey, Biz 2 14
Grant , Frank 2 12
Thompson , S 1 12
Coveleski , S 4 11
Joss , Addie 1 11
Gore , George 2 10
Caruthers , B 2 8
Maranville , R 2 7
Hill , Pete... 1 6
Berger , Wally 1 5
McGinnity , Joe 1 5
Browning , Pete 1 4
Faber , Red 1 4
Jennings , H 1 4
Duffy , Hugh 1 3
Glasscock , J 1 2
Grimes , B 1 1
McCormick , J 1 1

On the contributor side, we had a tie between Alexander Cartwright and Ned Hanlon. Cartwright was higher on six of the ballots, Hanlon on five (one ballot named neither), so Alexander Cartwright is our inductee. The final results were:

contributor…….. votes pts
Cartwright , A 6 29
Hanlon , Ned 10 29
Landis , K 7 25
Commiskey , C 9 24
Posey, Cum 6 18
Spink, Albert 4 15
Taylor , C. I. 2 8
Selee , Frank 3 7
Shoriki, M 1 5
Pearce, Dickey 1 4
Chance , Frank 2 3
Doubleday , A 1 3
Huggins , M 3 3
Wilkinson, J L 2 3
Bolden, Ed 1 2
Conlan , C 1 1
Connolly , Tom 1 1

Paul Wendt

07-18-2009, 10:48 AM

>> We dropped to 15 voters in the player ballot, and 12 in the contributors. Hopefully, at least some of the departures were on vacation and will return soon.
<<

Yes, do return!

Participation has been low or slow in some other forum projects this fortnight.

jalbright

07-18-2009, 10:50 AM

Yes, do return!

Participation has been low or slow in some other forum projects this fortnight.

Agreed, which is why I'm hopeful we'll get most of them back. There's only one I'm sure won't be back--but if you're going to submit a ballot that won't be counted, it's not much of a loss.