Freakshow
07-04-2009, 12:01 AM
Here is a link to the last election (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=91006).
Please note that the runoff election now asks you to rank your top 8. This is due to the expansion of the ballot to 18 players. At least 9, but no more than 15 players, will be added to the list.
======================================
This is the official Roster of Voters who are eligible to vote in this election:
bambambaseball
Brad Harris
dgarza
Freakshow
gman5431
jalbright
jjpm74
leecemark
mwiggins
Sockeye
STLCards2
If anyone else would like to join in and vote, go to the introductory thread (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87311) and apply; you're in if there are no objections from any current voters. Also refer to that thread for a fuller understanding of the rules, especially posts #1, #24 and #28.
======================================
Each voter must do three things:
1) Rank these 18 players in order. As always, players should be ranked based on hall of fame criteria, the sum of all their contributions to the game. Exception: Players whom the hall of fame has (or will be) elected as managers or other contributors (McGraw, Griffith, Torre, Spalding, Rube Foster, etc.) should be ranked only on the contribution from their playing. Active players should be ranked on their value to date, not projecting them to how you think they will end up.:
Rank WARP1 WARP3 Peak WSh Peak
144 Rafael Palmeiro 88.5 96.1 8.1 395 28.6
170 Ted Simmons 68.7 63.5 6.1 315 27.4
168 Joe Start 33.3 40.2 4.3
186 Max Carey 76.1 59.1 5.6 351 26.8
187 Don Drysdale 73.8 74.8 7.7 258 25.0
188 Billy Herman 75.8 77.8 7.9 298 28.4
179 Vladimir Guerrero 68.2 68.3 7.4 294 28.6
185 Enos Slaughter 72.4 72.1 7.3 323 28.8
178 Goose Gossage 71.0 48.7 6.2 223 20.8
180 Jeff Kent 79.0 79.9 7.6 339 29.0
182 Sammy Sosa 69.4 69.6 7.7 322 32.0
184 Red Ruffing 88.1 80.7 6.9 322 24.0
195 Zack Wheat 77.1 61.8 6.1 380 29.8
194 Sherry Magee 72.1 59.4 6.4 354 32.4
204 Ted Lyons 93.9 88.8 8.2 312 24.8
152 Don Sutton 79.3 73.1 5.5 319 21.4
196 Lou Boudreau 86.5 82.6 10.0 277 30.4
201 Ray Brown 74.2 7.2 313 30.6
2) Next to each name, mark Yes (Y) or No (N) in answer to this question: Can you tolerate this player being ranked among #171-185 on the all-time list?
This is not quite the same as asking “Do you think this player belongs in this group?”; it’s not Yes or No based on your personal rankings. It’s more along the lines “Can you see a good argument for placing this player among the top 185 in history?”
A general guideline I would offer: if a player would be in the top half of your next ballot (#186-194 all-time), you should tolerate him here. Your mileage (and tolerance) may vary. As an aid to this, here are the next eight players that are assured of appearing on the next ballot:
169 Joe Gordon 68.7 67.4 8.0 242 27.0
202 Jim Bunning 75.3 69.7 8.6 257 26.0
190 Stan Coveleski 69.5 71.5 8.7 245 28.4
192 Early Wynn 90.1 76.3 7.4 309 24.0
189 Joe Torre 85.4 80.4 8.4 315 29.2
193 Edgar Martinez 82.5 88.2 8.1 305 27.2
165 Sam Thompson 61.1 65.5 7.5 236 24.6
174 Charley Radbourn 36.5 49.0 7.2 391 54.4
3) Rank your top 8 players from this list of upcoming candidates. The top 7 from this runoff will earn a spot on the next ballot (assuming 15 are elected this time):
176 Rube Foster
181 Rollie Fingers 53.2 32.2 4.2 188 16.2
191 Fred McGriff 63.4 65.6 7.4 341 26.4
197 Darrell Evans 65.6 62.1 6.2 363 28.4
198 Orlando Cepeda 67.2 65.1 7.2 310 29.0
199 Carlos Delgado 58.4 61.2 6.5 298 29.4
200 Willie Keeler 76.9 76.9 7.7 333 27.0
203 Al Spalding 18.7 32.0 5.9
205 Eppa Rixey 80.0 71.3 5.8 315 24.2
206 Andre Dawson 64.9 66.1 7.3 340 26.4
207 Pete Hill
208 Ralph Kiner 47.6 47.9 7.2 242 31.0
209 Tony Perez 75.7 69.1 6.8 349 29.2
210 Bid McPhee 90.4 77.7 6.3 305 22.4
211 Ezra Sutton 39.7 43.6 5.5
212 John Beckwith 66.1 6.5 316 27.4
213 Heinie Groh 78.6 68.8 8.2 272 29.6
214 John Ward 57.1 65.7 5.9 409 37.6
215 Wes Ferrell 72.6 68.0 9.6 233 29.6
216 Ken Boyer 60.8 62.0 6.8 279 26.8
217 George Sisler 55.8 50.1 7.5 292 28.6
218 Bill Foster 254 27.6
219 Elmer Flick 74.6 72.8 8.6 291 32.0
220 Lou Brock 61.4 54.4 5.6 348 28.6========================================
Notes on charts
--The first column is their rank on the 500 Player List, v1.0 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81709&page=99&post=#3939).
--Career totals of WARP1 and WARP3 from Baseball Prospectus. WARP was rescaled in late February, so it cannot be compared to prior WARP numbers.
--Average of Top 5 years in WARP3.
--Career total of Win Shares; unadjusted from the book.
--Average of Top 5 years in unadjusted Win Shares.
--Stats for Negro leaguers are adapted from their MLE’s at Baseballthinkfactory. Ray Brown looks like Early Wynn, but with a real peak. Rube Foster compares favorably to the original Rube, Waddell. Pete Hill ranks somewhere between Crawford and Magee. Comparisons to Dick Allen have kept John Beckwith out of the HOF. Bunning and Coveleski appear to be similar in value to Bill Foster.
--Win shares are not really designed to measure earlier players. The numbers shown for Ward and Radbourn are likely to overrate them; OTOH, raw WS numbers for Thompson and McPhee are likely too low.
--Stats for active players do not include the 2009 season.
========================================
It is helpful to me if you only list players by their last name on your ballot (or last name, first initial). If you want to change your ballot some time after it is first posted, make a post in this thread that you have done so. Balloting will continue until everyone has voted, but not more than ten days. I will try to get the results up as soon after this as possible.
Discussion of the rankings, players and rules should take place in this thread. The Game is still On, so bring your arguments why you believe a player should be ranked higher or lower than he is on the 500 Player List.
======================================
So far, we've ranked the following players:
1. Babe Ruth, 2. Ty Cobb, 3. Willie Mays, 4. Honus Wagner, 5. Ted Williams, 6. Walter Johnson, 7. Hank Aaron, 8. Barry Bonds, 9. Stan Musial, 10. Mickey Mantle
11. Lou Gehrig, 12. Rogers Hornsby, 13. Tris Speaker, 14. Oscar Charleston, 15. Cy Young, 16. Mike Schmidt, 17. Eddie Collins, 18. Greg Maddux, 19. Josh Gibson, 20. Lefty Grove
21. Frank Robinson, 22. Joe Morgan, 23. Pete Alexander, 24. Roger Clemens, 25. Jimmie Foxx, 26. Joe DiMaggio, 27. Mel Ott, 28. Nap Lajoie, 29. Alex Rodriguez, 30. Johnny Bench
31. Rickey Henderson, 32. Eddie Mathews, 33. Tom Seaver, 34. Satchel Paige, 35. Pop Lloyd, 36. Warren Spahn, 37. Cap Anson, 38. George Brett, 39. Yogi Berra, 40. Christy Mathewson
41. Jackie Robinson, 42. Randy Johnson, 43. Dan Brouthers, 44. Ed Delahanty, 45. Cal Ripken, 46. Ken Griffey, Jr., 47. Kid Nichols, 48. Turkey Stearnes, 49. Arky Vaughan, 50. Carl Yastrzemski
51. Reggie Jackson, 52. Steve Carlton, 53. Smokey Joe Williams, 54. Frank Thomas, 55. Bob Feller, 56. Pete Rose, 57. Charlie Gehringer, 58. Mike Piazza, 59. Al Kaline, 60. Wade Boggs
61. Jeff Bagwell, 62. Sam Crawford, 63. Johnny Mize, 64. Bob Gibson, 65. Robin Yount, 66. Mickey Cochrane, 67. Roberto Clemente, 68. Duke Snider, 69. Tony Gwynn, 70. Rod Carew
71. Pedro Martinez, 72. Craig Biggio, 73. Carl Hubbell, 74. Buck Leonard, 75. Roy Campanella, 76. Hank Greenberg, 77. Frankie Frisch, 78. Harmon Killebrew, 79. Buck Ewing, 80. Paul Waner
81. Willie McCovey, 82. Roger Connor, 83. Martin Dihigo, 84. Eddie Murray, 85. Ernie Banks, 86. Robin Roberts, 87. Nolan Ryan, 88. Frank Baker, 89. King Kelly, 90. Gary Carter
91. Cristobal Torriente, 92. Billy Hamilton, 93. Gaylord Perry, 94. Al Simmons, 95. Chipper Jones, 96. Sandy Koufax, 97. Tim Raines, 98. Willie Stargell, 99. Phil Niekro, 100. Ryne Sandberg
101. Harry Heilmann, 102. Ed Walsh, 103. Ron Santo, 104. Mule Suttles, 105. Jesse Burkett, 106. Carlton Fisk, 107. Albert Pujols, 108. George Davis, 109. Roberto Alomar, 110. Eddie Plank
111. Jim Palmer, 112. Barry Larkin, 113. Bert Blyleven, 114. Joe Cronin, 115. Tim Keefe, 116. Mark McGwire, 117. John Clarkson, 118. Dick Allen, 119. Bullet Joe Rogan, 120. Jim O'Rourke
121. Paul Molitor, 122. Juan Marichal, 123. Whitey Ford, 124. George Wright, 125. Ivan Rodriguez, 126. Bill Dickey, 127. Dave Winfield, 128. Mordecai Brown, 129. Luke Appling, 130. Fergie Jenkins
131. Tom Glavine, 132. Gabby Hartnett, 133. Dazzy Vance, 134. Bill Dahlen, 135. Deacon White, 136. Manny Ramirez, 137. Gary Sheffield, 138. Mariano Rivera, 139. Paul Hines, 140. Joe Jackson
141. Alan Trammell, 142. Fred Clarke, 143. Billy Williams, 144. Larry Doby, 145. Ozzie Smith, 146. Bobby Grich, 147. Willie Wells, 148. Hal Newhouser, 149. Dennis Eckersley, 150. Louis Santop
151. Kirby Puckett, 152. Jim Thome, 153. Hoyt Wilhelm, 154. Curt Schilling, 155. Pee Wee Reese, 156. Amos Rusie, 157. Goose Goslin, 158. Derek Jeter, 159. Joe Medwick, 160. Jud Wilson
161. John Smoltz, 162. Brooks Robinson, 163. Minnie Minoso, 164. Rube Waddell, 165. Cool Papa Bell, 166. Mike Mussina, 167. Jimmy Collins, 168. Ross Barnes, 169. Richie Ashburn, 170. Lou Whitaker
Please note that the runoff election now asks you to rank your top 8. This is due to the expansion of the ballot to 18 players. At least 9, but no more than 15 players, will be added to the list.
======================================
This is the official Roster of Voters who are eligible to vote in this election:
bambambaseball
Brad Harris
dgarza
Freakshow
gman5431
jalbright
jjpm74
leecemark
mwiggins
Sockeye
STLCards2
If anyone else would like to join in and vote, go to the introductory thread (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87311) and apply; you're in if there are no objections from any current voters. Also refer to that thread for a fuller understanding of the rules, especially posts #1, #24 and #28.
======================================
Each voter must do three things:
1) Rank these 18 players in order. As always, players should be ranked based on hall of fame criteria, the sum of all their contributions to the game. Exception: Players whom the hall of fame has (or will be) elected as managers or other contributors (McGraw, Griffith, Torre, Spalding, Rube Foster, etc.) should be ranked only on the contribution from their playing. Active players should be ranked on their value to date, not projecting them to how you think they will end up.:
Rank WARP1 WARP3 Peak WSh Peak
144 Rafael Palmeiro 88.5 96.1 8.1 395 28.6
170 Ted Simmons 68.7 63.5 6.1 315 27.4
168 Joe Start 33.3 40.2 4.3
186 Max Carey 76.1 59.1 5.6 351 26.8
187 Don Drysdale 73.8 74.8 7.7 258 25.0
188 Billy Herman 75.8 77.8 7.9 298 28.4
179 Vladimir Guerrero 68.2 68.3 7.4 294 28.6
185 Enos Slaughter 72.4 72.1 7.3 323 28.8
178 Goose Gossage 71.0 48.7 6.2 223 20.8
180 Jeff Kent 79.0 79.9 7.6 339 29.0
182 Sammy Sosa 69.4 69.6 7.7 322 32.0
184 Red Ruffing 88.1 80.7 6.9 322 24.0
195 Zack Wheat 77.1 61.8 6.1 380 29.8
194 Sherry Magee 72.1 59.4 6.4 354 32.4
204 Ted Lyons 93.9 88.8 8.2 312 24.8
152 Don Sutton 79.3 73.1 5.5 319 21.4
196 Lou Boudreau 86.5 82.6 10.0 277 30.4
201 Ray Brown 74.2 7.2 313 30.6
2) Next to each name, mark Yes (Y) or No (N) in answer to this question: Can you tolerate this player being ranked among #171-185 on the all-time list?
This is not quite the same as asking “Do you think this player belongs in this group?”; it’s not Yes or No based on your personal rankings. It’s more along the lines “Can you see a good argument for placing this player among the top 185 in history?”
A general guideline I would offer: if a player would be in the top half of your next ballot (#186-194 all-time), you should tolerate him here. Your mileage (and tolerance) may vary. As an aid to this, here are the next eight players that are assured of appearing on the next ballot:
169 Joe Gordon 68.7 67.4 8.0 242 27.0
202 Jim Bunning 75.3 69.7 8.6 257 26.0
190 Stan Coveleski 69.5 71.5 8.7 245 28.4
192 Early Wynn 90.1 76.3 7.4 309 24.0
189 Joe Torre 85.4 80.4 8.4 315 29.2
193 Edgar Martinez 82.5 88.2 8.1 305 27.2
165 Sam Thompson 61.1 65.5 7.5 236 24.6
174 Charley Radbourn 36.5 49.0 7.2 391 54.4
3) Rank your top 8 players from this list of upcoming candidates. The top 7 from this runoff will earn a spot on the next ballot (assuming 15 are elected this time):
176 Rube Foster
181 Rollie Fingers 53.2 32.2 4.2 188 16.2
191 Fred McGriff 63.4 65.6 7.4 341 26.4
197 Darrell Evans 65.6 62.1 6.2 363 28.4
198 Orlando Cepeda 67.2 65.1 7.2 310 29.0
199 Carlos Delgado 58.4 61.2 6.5 298 29.4
200 Willie Keeler 76.9 76.9 7.7 333 27.0
203 Al Spalding 18.7 32.0 5.9
205 Eppa Rixey 80.0 71.3 5.8 315 24.2
206 Andre Dawson 64.9 66.1 7.3 340 26.4
207 Pete Hill
208 Ralph Kiner 47.6 47.9 7.2 242 31.0
209 Tony Perez 75.7 69.1 6.8 349 29.2
210 Bid McPhee 90.4 77.7 6.3 305 22.4
211 Ezra Sutton 39.7 43.6 5.5
212 John Beckwith 66.1 6.5 316 27.4
213 Heinie Groh 78.6 68.8 8.2 272 29.6
214 John Ward 57.1 65.7 5.9 409 37.6
215 Wes Ferrell 72.6 68.0 9.6 233 29.6
216 Ken Boyer 60.8 62.0 6.8 279 26.8
217 George Sisler 55.8 50.1 7.5 292 28.6
218 Bill Foster 254 27.6
219 Elmer Flick 74.6 72.8 8.6 291 32.0
220 Lou Brock 61.4 54.4 5.6 348 28.6========================================
Notes on charts
--The first column is their rank on the 500 Player List, v1.0 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81709&page=99&post=#3939).
--Career totals of WARP1 and WARP3 from Baseball Prospectus. WARP was rescaled in late February, so it cannot be compared to prior WARP numbers.
--Average of Top 5 years in WARP3.
--Career total of Win Shares; unadjusted from the book.
--Average of Top 5 years in unadjusted Win Shares.
--Stats for Negro leaguers are adapted from their MLE’s at Baseballthinkfactory. Ray Brown looks like Early Wynn, but with a real peak. Rube Foster compares favorably to the original Rube, Waddell. Pete Hill ranks somewhere between Crawford and Magee. Comparisons to Dick Allen have kept John Beckwith out of the HOF. Bunning and Coveleski appear to be similar in value to Bill Foster.
--Win shares are not really designed to measure earlier players. The numbers shown for Ward and Radbourn are likely to overrate them; OTOH, raw WS numbers for Thompson and McPhee are likely too low.
--Stats for active players do not include the 2009 season.
========================================
It is helpful to me if you only list players by their last name on your ballot (or last name, first initial). If you want to change your ballot some time after it is first posted, make a post in this thread that you have done so. Balloting will continue until everyone has voted, but not more than ten days. I will try to get the results up as soon after this as possible.
Discussion of the rankings, players and rules should take place in this thread. The Game is still On, so bring your arguments why you believe a player should be ranked higher or lower than he is on the 500 Player List.
======================================
So far, we've ranked the following players:
1. Babe Ruth, 2. Ty Cobb, 3. Willie Mays, 4. Honus Wagner, 5. Ted Williams, 6. Walter Johnson, 7. Hank Aaron, 8. Barry Bonds, 9. Stan Musial, 10. Mickey Mantle
11. Lou Gehrig, 12. Rogers Hornsby, 13. Tris Speaker, 14. Oscar Charleston, 15. Cy Young, 16. Mike Schmidt, 17. Eddie Collins, 18. Greg Maddux, 19. Josh Gibson, 20. Lefty Grove
21. Frank Robinson, 22. Joe Morgan, 23. Pete Alexander, 24. Roger Clemens, 25. Jimmie Foxx, 26. Joe DiMaggio, 27. Mel Ott, 28. Nap Lajoie, 29. Alex Rodriguez, 30. Johnny Bench
31. Rickey Henderson, 32. Eddie Mathews, 33. Tom Seaver, 34. Satchel Paige, 35. Pop Lloyd, 36. Warren Spahn, 37. Cap Anson, 38. George Brett, 39. Yogi Berra, 40. Christy Mathewson
41. Jackie Robinson, 42. Randy Johnson, 43. Dan Brouthers, 44. Ed Delahanty, 45. Cal Ripken, 46. Ken Griffey, Jr., 47. Kid Nichols, 48. Turkey Stearnes, 49. Arky Vaughan, 50. Carl Yastrzemski
51. Reggie Jackson, 52. Steve Carlton, 53. Smokey Joe Williams, 54. Frank Thomas, 55. Bob Feller, 56. Pete Rose, 57. Charlie Gehringer, 58. Mike Piazza, 59. Al Kaline, 60. Wade Boggs
61. Jeff Bagwell, 62. Sam Crawford, 63. Johnny Mize, 64. Bob Gibson, 65. Robin Yount, 66. Mickey Cochrane, 67. Roberto Clemente, 68. Duke Snider, 69. Tony Gwynn, 70. Rod Carew
71. Pedro Martinez, 72. Craig Biggio, 73. Carl Hubbell, 74. Buck Leonard, 75. Roy Campanella, 76. Hank Greenberg, 77. Frankie Frisch, 78. Harmon Killebrew, 79. Buck Ewing, 80. Paul Waner
81. Willie McCovey, 82. Roger Connor, 83. Martin Dihigo, 84. Eddie Murray, 85. Ernie Banks, 86. Robin Roberts, 87. Nolan Ryan, 88. Frank Baker, 89. King Kelly, 90. Gary Carter
91. Cristobal Torriente, 92. Billy Hamilton, 93. Gaylord Perry, 94. Al Simmons, 95. Chipper Jones, 96. Sandy Koufax, 97. Tim Raines, 98. Willie Stargell, 99. Phil Niekro, 100. Ryne Sandberg
101. Harry Heilmann, 102. Ed Walsh, 103. Ron Santo, 104. Mule Suttles, 105. Jesse Burkett, 106. Carlton Fisk, 107. Albert Pujols, 108. George Davis, 109. Roberto Alomar, 110. Eddie Plank
111. Jim Palmer, 112. Barry Larkin, 113. Bert Blyleven, 114. Joe Cronin, 115. Tim Keefe, 116. Mark McGwire, 117. John Clarkson, 118. Dick Allen, 119. Bullet Joe Rogan, 120. Jim O'Rourke
121. Paul Molitor, 122. Juan Marichal, 123. Whitey Ford, 124. George Wright, 125. Ivan Rodriguez, 126. Bill Dickey, 127. Dave Winfield, 128. Mordecai Brown, 129. Luke Appling, 130. Fergie Jenkins
131. Tom Glavine, 132. Gabby Hartnett, 133. Dazzy Vance, 134. Bill Dahlen, 135. Deacon White, 136. Manny Ramirez, 137. Gary Sheffield, 138. Mariano Rivera, 139. Paul Hines, 140. Joe Jackson
141. Alan Trammell, 142. Fred Clarke, 143. Billy Williams, 144. Larry Doby, 145. Ozzie Smith, 146. Bobby Grich, 147. Willie Wells, 148. Hal Newhouser, 149. Dennis Eckersley, 150. Louis Santop
151. Kirby Puckett, 152. Jim Thome, 153. Hoyt Wilhelm, 154. Curt Schilling, 155. Pee Wee Reese, 156. Amos Rusie, 157. Goose Goslin, 158. Derek Jeter, 159. Joe Medwick, 160. Jud Wilson
161. John Smoltz, 162. Brooks Robinson, 163. Minnie Minoso, 164. Rube Waddell, 165. Cool Papa Bell, 166. Mike Mussina, 167. Jimmy Collins, 168. Ross Barnes, 169. Richie Ashburn, 170. Lou Whitaker