Mickey Vernon

[Cowtipper]

Mickey Vernon played 20 years in the big leagues, hitting .286 with 172 home runs, 137 stolen bases, 1,196 runs, 1,311 RBI and 2,495 hits. In over 9,800 career at-bats, he struck out only 869 times. He never struck out more than 66 times in a season.

He was a seven-time All-Star.

Vernon led the league in batting average twice, doubles three times, HBP once and EXBH once. His grey ink was 149, higher than that of the average Hall of Famer.

Statistically, Vernon is similar to one Hall of Famer: Enos Slaughter. The other players he is most similar to, according to Baseball Reference, are Mark Grace, Bill Buckner, Joe Kuhel, Keith Hernandez, Steve Garvey, Al Oliver, Jose Cruz, Joe Judge and Willie Davis.

The Baseball Page ranks Vernon as the 36th best first baseman of all time, just ahead of Fred McGriff, Dolph Camilli and Tino Martinez, and just behind Bill Terry, Boog Powell and Jim Bottomley.

Vernon was on the Hall of Fame's ballot for the full 15 seasons he could be. He received as much as 24.9% of the vote.

What do you think about Mickey Vernon? Should he be in the Hall of Fame?

[jjpm74]

I've always liked Vernon and considered him someone who at least deserves to be in the discussion. Put me down as a solid maybe.

[Brad Harris]

Arguably a better candidate than Gil Hodges?

[dgarza]

Arguably a better candidate than Gil Hodges?

Agreed. Vernon's name does not get thrown into the conversation nearly enough.

[KCGHOST]

I do remember watching Vernon on Game of the Week when he hid a ball over Mantle's in OYS and the ball ended up rolling behind the monuments for an easy ITPHR.

But, he's no HoFer. Decent player who played a very long time.

[BigRon]

Mickey Vernon was more than a decent MLer. He was a good to very good player. Line drive hitter with gap power, good defensive 1Ber. Ran well. Didn't hit many homers, but Griffith was a terrible HR park, and Fenway was tough for lefthanders, too. He also lost a couple of early seasons to WW2.

Vernon's biggest drawback was inconistency. He had several very sub-par seasons during what should have been the prime of his career. I suspect that he had injuries or illnesses, but I haven't seen any documentation on this.

He is not/should not be a HOFer, but he was a very good player nonetheless. Bill Buckner may be a reasonable modern day equivalent, though Vernon ran much better.

[mwiggins]

Vernon's biggest drawback was inconistency. He had several very sub-par seasons during what should have been the prime of his career. I suspect that he had injuries or illnesses, but I haven't seen any documentation on this.



He had back trouble for a lot of years, until he had an operation for appendicitus later in his career. Bill James speculated those recurring back problems were much of the cause for his down years.

And as you said, the two lost seasons at age 26 & 27 were huge. At age 25 he posted a 121 OPS+ in 145 games and at age 28 he posted a 160 OPS+ in 148 games.

Here's an interesting article about Vernon's career from TheHardballTimes.com

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/filling-the-mickey-vernon-gaps-volume-i/

[Domenic]

Maybe.

I believe Vernon deserves a fair amount of credit for 1944 and 1945. I don't think it's extreme to expect two seasons similar to his first three full seasons (.279/.348/.405, 113 OPS+). That'd probably push him to 1350+ runs, 2800+ hits, 540+ doubles, and 1500+ RBI - that's a much better line of counting stats, one that looks more "Hall-worthy." I could even be underrating that here, as he posted OPS+'s of 121 and 160 around his World War II service years.

In the end, though, Vernon only had a couple of seasons where he was one of the ten best players in the league and, while a B- is solid, wasn't a terribly impressive defender. He was a very good player for a very long time, and dealt with some issues that probably hurt his numbers a great deal (injuries and WWII, in particular) - but he doesn't have enough to be there. I don't think he is a clear "no," though, as he's closer to "yes" than "no."

Mickey Vernon played 20 years in the big leagues, hitting .286 with 273 home runs,

Baseball-Reference has Vernon with 172 home runs, as does Baseball Prospectus. I'm assuming this is a typo, though it's worth pointing out.

[Brad Harris]

Two other possible comps:

Was Vernon the Mark Grace of his day?


Is Vernon the "batter" version of Jim Kaat (inconsistently very good, peak seasons separated so as not to form a "prime")?

[Paul Wendt]

Is Vernon the "batter" version of Jim Kaat (inconsistently very good, peak seasons separated so as not to form a "prime")?
No.
Mickey Vernon was more consistent and he blossomed late, perhaps following surgery. His five seasons with MVP notice and his five best by OPS+ came at ages 28 (1946) and 35-38; four were consecutive. That 1946 "career year" looks like a fluke; otherwise he fits the consecutive seasons model quite well. His best five consecutive seasons were the five full seasons of his second tenure in Washington at ages 33-37, or ages 34-38 including his first in Boston. As a batter it's a choice between 141 games at OPS+ 112 or 119 at 130.

Jim Kaat put together two remarkable seasons with the White Sox at ages 35-36 in a fine comeback, followed by one solid season with the Phillies. Those two seasons matched his age 23 and 26-27, truly a scattered "peak".

By the way, I see that Jim Kaat issued 4, 2, and 0 intentional walks 1966-68 followed by 15, 8, and 9 in 1969-71. The latter were Billy Martin's one season as manager and Bill Rigney's two full seasons. He followed that with four years with 2-1-3-0, with the Twins and White Sox, followed by 3-6-6 with Philadelphia. Now I suppose that managers differ more than I would have guessed, in their inclination for or against intentional walks. (The move from White Sox to Phillies was also a move from the American League under the DH to the NL with pitchers batting. The three seasons with very high IBB counts, however, were all prior to the DH rule.)

[willshad]

[QUOTE=Cowtipper;1552979]Mickey Vernon played 20 years in the big leagues, hitting .286 with 172 home runs, 137 stolen bases, 1,196 runs, 1,311 RBI and 2,495 hits. In over 9,800 career at-bats, he struck out only 869 times. He never struck out more than 66 times in a season.

He was a seven-time All-Star.



The Baseball Page ranks Vernon as the 36th best first baseman of all time, just ahead of Fred McGriff, Dolph Camilli and Tino Martinez, and just behind Bill Terry, Boog Powell and Jim Bottomley.


How the heck do you justify ranking Vernon ahead of Mcgriff?

Im thinking a modern day equivlent would be maybe John Olerud? A nice career with a couple of outstanding seasons..but not a hall of famer.

[Brad Harris]

I've not seen any justification from The Baseball Page to explain the basis for their positional ratings. I suspect it's nothing more than abitrary rankings derived from the site owner's personal opinions.

[dgarza]

Two other possible comps:

Was Vernon the Mark Grace of his day?

I think Grace is probably his closest equivalent.

[Cougar]

I think Grace is probably his closest equivalent.

I'd call Vernon a more durable version of Olerud that spent the bulk of his career in a nightmarish pitcher's park (Griffith Stadium).

[dgarza]

deleted.......

[ol' aches and pains]

Interesting-at this point maybe is leading with 52% of the vote. A lot of people (including me) are on the fence on Vernon.

[Paul Wendt]

I have helped "No" catch up to "Maybe" but that is nevertheless remarkable.

Cowtipper, Has "Maybe" won any of your polls?

[Cowtipper]

I have helped "No" catch up to "Maybe" but that is nevertheless remarkable.

Cowtipper, Has "Maybe" won any of your polls?
Yes, a few times. These are the polls in which "Maybe" won (or tied for the highest percentage)

(Name, Yes%, No%, Maybe%)

Wally Berger, 22.22, 18.52, 59.26
Jimmy Ryan, 39.29, 21.43, 39.29
Vern Stephens, 18.75, 31.25, 50.00
Mike Tiernan, 18.18, 27.27, 54.55
Hippo Vaughn, 8.33, 41.67, 50.00

Considering I've started 197 polls, it doesn't happen very often...it only happens about once every 39 polls I start. It's interesting to note that nearly half of my polls have received zero yes votes, and 37 of my polls, or about one-fifth, get both no yeses and no maybes.

By the way, for those interested, here is an Excel file with all my polls, the percentages they received, and other fun data.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=77427dedeffd51fce62ea590dc5e5dbbe04e75f6 e8ebb871

[Paul Wendt]

Familiar numbers imply that the last three suffer from low turnout.

Wally Berger truly reigns as Least Polarizing Player, with the highest Maybe share and a nearly equal numbers of Yes and No.