Baseball's Top Starting Pitchers (by category)

[Bennybosox]

I recently had a conversation with some friends about the current wealth of talent in the game as it relates to starting pitching in MLB right now. We decided to compile a list of the games top starting pitchers using several different categories. Here's what we came up with:

MLB's top young Ace's (not rookies, but pitchers that haven't scratched their prime yet):

1. Tim Lincecum 6. Cole hamels
2. Zack Grenkie 7. Chad Billingsley
3. Josh Johnson 8. Matt cain
4. John Lester 9. Justin verlander
5. felix Hernandez 10. Yavonni gallardo

The Next Wave (MLB- Rookies or minimul service time guys):

1. Clayton Kershaw
2. Rick Porcello
3. David Price
4. Tommy hanson
5. Joba Chamberlain

The Next Wave (Minor League Prospects):

1. Steven Strausberg
2. Madison Bumgarder
3. Clay Buccholz
4. Nefalti Feliz
5. Chris Tillman

The "not so young anymore" Veterans:

1. Johan Santana
2. Roy Halladay
3. Jake Peavy
4. Josh Beckett
5. CC Sabathia

We put some thought ito it, and based on the first three categories it looks like we're going to be watching a great generation of pitchers for the forseeable future.

Looking for Opnions/ Imput/ Disagreement/ discussion from the BF community

[gojays]

Buchholz should be in the minimal service time category. He started 15 games last year and has more time in the majors than Porcello, Price or Hanson.

[DClutch]

I would Jackson to young Ace's, Lowe to the veterans,

[NYMets523]

Joba Chamberlain doesn't belong on that list.

[YankeeDJW]

Joba Chamberlain doesn't belong on that list.

Why not? He's barely out of his first "full" season and has yet to show any signs that he can't a dominating #1 or #2 pitcher in a couple of years. He has some control issues, but nothing that can't be fixed. Compared to some others on this list, Joba has had a far better first few seasons than someone like Santana and arguably better than even Greinke's first few seasons.

If there is anyone I wouldn't put on that list, it would be Liriano. He just isn't the same pitcher he was a couple years ago.

[STLCards2]

Just out of curiosity, I would love to see how Chrisp Carpenter's last 100 GS compares to the last 100 GS of Santana, Halliday, Peavy, Webb, Oswalt, Sabathia, etc. Of course, unfortunately for Carpenter, his last 100 starts have come over the past 6 seasons.

[lyrical]

John Lannan's a good young pitcher even though he plays for a gadawful team.

Mark Buehrle and Carlos Zambrano are solid aces. Tim Hudson if he ever gets healthy.

It is interesting that the 90s produced almost no good pitchers that lasted. After Mussina in '91 and Pedro in '92, it's like a vast wasteland until the end of the decade.

[NYMets523]

Why not? He's barely out of his first "full" season and has yet to show any signs that he can't a dominating #1 or #2 pitcher in a couple of years. He has some control issues, but nothing that can't be fixed. Compared to some others on this list, Joba has had a far better first few seasons than someone like Santana and arguably better than even Greinke's first few seasons.

Joba rarely pitches past the 6th inning. He's only pitched beyond the 6th inning 6 times the past 2 seasons. It's also quite clear that he is not as dominating as a starter.

Just because he had a better first season than Santana and Greinke means nothing. We're talking about how he is right this season, not what his potential is. And right now, he is not in the top 5 starting pitchers in his age range.

[YankeeDJW]

Joba rarely pitches past the 6th inning. He's only pitched beyond the 6th inning 6 times the past 2 seasons. It's also quite clear that he is not as dominating as a starter.

He was lights-out as a reliever. He's been solid as a starter. His lack of control obviously affects his pitch count, as did the "Joba rules" last season. I would still argue that he has had a better start to his career than many others on the list.

Just because he had a better first season than Santana and Greinke means nothing. We're talking about how he is right this season, not what his potential is.

We are? Than why is Cole Hamels on that list? Or Liriano? Or the better question, why is he on a list labeled "The Next Wave"? Although only the original poster can say what the thread is about, I would feel safe guessing that it's not just about just "this season." If we weren't talking about potential, why bother even listing minor leaguers?

From how I interpreted the list, there is no doubt in my mind Joba belongs on it. And if you're interpretation is correct, you skipped over several less worthy names this season to get to Joba.

[NYMets523]

He was lights-out as a reliever. He's been solid as a starter. His lack of control obviously affects his pitch count, as did the "Joba rules" last season. I would still argue that he has had a better start to his career than many others on the list.
Can't compare his career start to the other starters in his age range b/c he was a reliever. The others have always been starters.


We are? Than why is Cole Hamels on that list? Or Liriano? Or the better question, why is he on a list labeled "The Next Wave"? Although only the original poster can say what the thread is about, I would feel safe guessing that it's not just about just "this season." If we weren't talking about potential, why bother even listing minor leaguers?
The thing is you're saying he's had a better start to his career than Greinke or Santana. We're not comparing his start to theirs. We are comparing how he is now to other pitchers his age with his type of potential. And I don't think Joba is in the top 5 of those simply b/c of how few innings he's able to pitch as a starter.

[YankeeDJW]

I see what you're saying, but Joba clearly has the raw talent to be something great. He has shown flashes of it and has yet to raise any doubts that he can't attain it. I think that's all Bennybosox was originally trying to say, and something I believe to be true.

Tommy Hanson has pitched a grand total of 23 innings in the majors. Rick Porcello averages about 5.5 innings per game, as does Clayton Kershaw this season. David Price averages less and hasn't lived up to the hype of last season, with a mediocre WHIP and ERA so far. How does Joba not deserve to be mentioned with them when he has already proven over the course of three season that he can pitch well at the major league level?

[Otis Nixon's Bodyguard]

The "not so young anymore" Veterans:

1. Johan Santana
2. Roy Halladay
3. Jake Peavy
4. Josh Beckett
5. CC Sabathia

The clear choice is Santana, so it's somewhat of a moot point, but Roy Oswalt and Brandon Webb deserve to be listed.

[lyrical]

MLB's top young Ace's (not rookies, but pitchers that haven't scratched their prime yet):

1. Tim Lincecum 6. Cole hamels
2. Zack Grenkie 7. Justin verlander
3. Josh Johnson 8. Matt cain
4. John Lester 9. Yavonni Gallardo
5. felix Hernandez 10. Francisco Lirano

Chad Billingsley should probably be on there.

Young pitchers are so volatile though, in the last few years Scott Kazmir would have been considered one of the top young guns in the game, and he started this year with a 7 ERA.

[Rich the Giants fan]

Joba clearly deserves to be on the list he's on.

[bob]

The clear choice is Santana, so it's somewhat of a moot point, but Roy Oswalt and Brandon Webb deserve to be listed.
Not disagreeing with you, but which 2 pitchers would you take off the list?

[Bennybosox]

Joba Chamberlain doesn't belong on that list.

Yeah, maybe he doesn't. I'll say this though-- His Name was the single last name to be put on the list for any/all of the categories. I originally felt that he didn't belong in the category at all, but it is list of starting pitchers and he's had a similar amount of stars as Kershaw. Believe me when I tell you: Joba Chamberlain was the most debated pitcher on this list.

I knew when I posted this list that it would certainly spark some debate, and it's nice to see the reaction fron the BF community.

[Bennybosox]

The clear choice is Santana, so it's somewhat of a moot point, but Roy Oswalt and Brandon Webb deserve to be listed.

When compiling this list it was obvious that the first category (young aces) would be diffucult to limit to only 5 pitchers, so we went to 10. The same could be said for the "not so young..." category, and that category would have certainly contained both Oswalt & Webb had we taken the list out to ten pitchers.

[lyrical]

Joba Chamberlain has got to be one of the most ridiculously overhyped young players around. If he didn't play with NYY his performance as a starter wouldn't be on anyone's radar. Matched up against Seattle's Brandon Morrow last night, and I don't think Morrow is any worse/better than Chamberlain. Same age, throws just as hard with questionable command.

[YankeeDJW]

Joba Chamberlain has got to be one of the most ridiculously overhyped young players around. If he didn't play with NYY his performance as a starter wouldn't be on anyone's radar. Matched up against Seattle's Brandon Morrow last night, and I don't think Morrow is any worse/better than Chamberlain. Same age, throws just as hard with questionable command.

How is a 5.14 ERA and 1.83 WHIP comparable to Joba in anyway, especially since half of Morrow's inning were pitched in relief? And I already showed how Joba is arguably better than any of the other players he's listed with in this thread. Joba is on the radar because of how he entered the league with such a bang and obviously being in NY has helped, but the anti-Yankee sentiment and outlandish statements like the one above are getting obnoxious.

[lyrical]

How is a 5.14 ERA and 1.83 WHIP comparable to Joba in anyway, especially since half of Morrow's inning were pitched in relief? And I already showed how Joba is arguably better than any of the other players he's listed with in this thread. Joba is on the radar because of how he entered the league with such a bang and obviously being in NY has helped, but the anti-Yankee sentiment and outlandish statements like the one above are getting obnoxious.

Joba is nothing special as he is now and has shown signs of regression from last year. Yankee fans who keep touting his "specialness" are one of the biggest turnoffs about that fanbase, and there are plenty of Yankee players I like. Joba's tRA is 5.11, more lucky than good. As for Morrow, he's been hurt and now in a reliever-starter transition so we'll see what happens when he's capable of throwing 100 pitches per outing.

[ol' aches and pains]

John Lannan's a good young pitcher even though he plays for a gadawful team.

Mark Buehrle and Carlos Zambrano are solid aces. Tim Hudson if he ever gets healthy.

It is interesting that the 90s produced almost no good pitchers that lasted. After Mussina in '91 and Pedro in '92, it's like a vast wasteland until the end of the decade.

Definitely agree with Buehrle. I wouldn't describe Zambrano as a "solid" anything. He is a major meltdown waiting to happen, and I don't think he will ever be reliable enough to realize his enormous potential.

[Bennybosox]

So let me ask you guys this:

If we were to take these lists of five pitchers out to ten (excluding the minor-leaguers), who would you guys thow in there?

As far as the veteran pitchers go, I've seen the names of Oswalt, Webb, Zambrano and others-- and all of those guys certainly merited consideration when compiling this list--but I gotta ask, if we stretched the list to ten, who ya got?

[CandlestickBum]

John Lannan's a good young pitcher even though he plays for a gadawful team.

Mark Buehrle and Carlos Zambrano are solid aces. Tim Hudson if he ever gets healthy.

It is interesting that the 90s produced almost no good pitchers that lasted. After Mussina in '91 and Pedro in '92, it's like a vast wasteland until the end of the decade.

Does the current rise in good pitching have anything much to do with the decrease PED use by batters you think?

The 90'd and early 00's were years of offense, mostly fueled as we've found out, by "supplements".

Doesn't suprise me much to see the return of pitching.

And with Lincecum and Cain on my team, we're just as ready for the pitchers decade as we were for the decade of the home run king! :highfive:

:rofl:
( I'm sure some others don't find this quite as amusing as I do )

[Bennybosox]

If I had to take the "not so young..." category to ten I'd say:
6. Oswalt
7. Carpenter
8. Webb
9. Lackey
10.Haren

Whaddaya think?

[Bennybosox]

Chad Billingsley should probably be on there.

Young pitchers are so volatile though, in the last few years Scott Kazmir would have been considered one of the top young guns in the game, and he started this year with a 7 ERA.

You're right, Billingsley should probably be top 7. Major oversight on my part.

[lyrical]

If I had to take the "not so young..." category to ten I'd say:
6. Oswalt
7. Carpenter
8. Webb
9. Lackey
10.Haren

Whaddaya think?

I'd probably take Buehrle instead of Lackey.

[ol' aches and pains]

I'd probably take Buehrle instead of Lackey.

Amen, and it's not even close, at least this year.

[yamsi12]

I second the Joba doesnt belong guy.

He wears pinstripes so hes over-hyped. Its actually sort of amusing.

[Inge15]

Replace Liriano with Edwin Jackson.

[Los Bravos]

I wouldn't describe Zambrano as a "solid" anything. He is a major meltdown waiting to happen, and I don't think he will ever be reliable enough to realize his enormous potential.So very true. I've been maintaining that for a long time, and it's starting to sink in to more and more people.

I would put Verlander several places higher on his list.

[Otis Nixon's Bodyguard]

Not disagreeing with you, but which 2 pitchers would you take off the list?

Beckett and Peavy. I'd say that, up to this point, Oswalt and Webb have clearly had better careers than those two. Oswalt in particular gets overlooked way too often.

[stejay]

Cain deserves to be higher..he would be by far the best pitcher in most teams. He is just unlucky he has Lincecum, and to a lesser extent Randy and Zito also there, it is harder for him. Especially with Lincecum arguably the best pitcher in baseball right now, Randy being a certain HOFer, and Zito having a return season.

[fonda1119]

Just out of curiosity, I would love to see how Chrisp Carpenter's last 100 GS compares to the last 100 GS of Santana, Halliday, Peavy, Webb, Oswalt, Sabathia, etc. Of course, unfortunately for Carpenter, his last 100 starts have come over the past 6 seasons.

Here's the stats for the last 100 games for the guys you listed above. Carpenter stacks up not only comparably with but better than some of these other guys:


Player - W L ERA IP BB SO BAA OBA SLA WPA
Carpenter - 51 22 2.98 679.0 132 569 .235 .276 .356 11.09
Santana - 50 29 2.96 672.1 175 662 .227 .279 .381 8.65
Halladay - 54 24 3.21 712.1 127 529 .253 .290 .366 11.81
Peavy - 44 34 3.17 641.2 209 685 .225 .291 .353 7.65
Webb - 56 25 3.20 689.0 186 549 .242 .296 .346 10.18
Oswalt - 45 25 3.32 644.2 154 500 .257 .305 .395 7.54
Sabathia - 48 29 3.10 711.2 151 637 .247 .292 .365 10.31

[nerfan]

I'd say Tim Lincecum is the best starting pitcher in MLB... period. If I could take any guy to be my ace I'd take Lincecum.

[Bennybosox]

I'd probably take Buehrle instead of Lackey.

Yeah, it's not really even close is it? Obviosly Buehrle is in the news today, but the guy is consistently overlooked

[BigandUgly]

I liked Joba as a reliever in the setup role. I thought he'd be the heir apparent when Rivera retires. I'm not thrilled with him as a starter. He hasn't shown the ability to effectively get through the order more than once.

If the Yanks kept Joba in relief few people would argue his ability. As a starter few people can argue his lack of ability.

I'm not saying he doesn't have potential. A hard fastball with lots of movement is a great asset, but as a starter there is something missing. Hopefully he'll put it together and play up to his potential.

[dgarza]

[quote]
I recently had a conversation with some friends about the current wealth of talent in the game as it relates to starting pitching in MLB right now. We decided to compile a list of the games top starting pitchers using several different categories. Here's what we came up with:
Maybe I'm taking this too literally, but I will preface my post: I am looking at what pitchers are doing "now" (2008-2009).
[This will effect how I look at the Vets the most. I am not evaluating their whole careers. I am just looking at what they have been doing recently.]


MLB's top young Ace's (not rookies, but pitchers that haven't scratched their prime yet):

1. Tim Lincecum 6. Cole hamels
2. Zack Grenkie 7. Chad Billingsley
3. Josh Johnson 8. Matt cain
4. John Lester 9. Justin verlander
5. felix Hernandez 10. Yavonni gallardo

1. Tim Lincecum
2. Adam Wainwright
3. Josh Johnson
4. Jon Lester
5. Chad Billingsley
6. Felix Hernandez
7. Wandy Rodriguez
8. Cole Hammels
9. Joe Saunders
10. Matt Cain

Even though he was roughed up in 2008, I can see the argument for Justin Verlander.

I have Zack Grenkie in the Vets category, seeing as he is in his 6th season.
I have Yovani Gallardo in the Minimal Service category, seeing as he doesn't even have 300 IPs under his belt.


The Next Wave (MLB- Rookies or minimul service time guys):

1. Clayton Kershaw
2. Rick Porcello
3. David Price
4. Tommy hanson
5. Joba Chamberlain

1. Randy Wells
2. Tommy Hanson
3. JA Happ
4. John Danks
5. Ricky Romero
6. Joba Chamberlain
7. Brad Bergesen
8. Max Scherzer
9. Yovai Gallardo
10. Jair Jurrjens

Clayton Kershaw was completely average pitcher last year, but is doing well this year. I can see an argument here.

Rick Porcello has an ERA of 4.40 and an ERA+ of 101. With 9 win this year doesn't cut it.

David Price has losing record and is a below average pitcher this year.


The Next Wave (Minor League Prospects):

1. Steven Strausberg
2. Madison Bumgarder
3. Clay Buccholz
4. Nefalti Feliz
5. Chris Tillman

I have no insight here...


The "not so young anymore" Veterans:

1. Johan Santana
2. Roy Halladay
3. Jake Peavy
4. Josh Beckett
5. CC Sabathia

1. Cliff Lee
2. Danny Haren
3. Roy Halladay
4. Johan Santana
5. Zack Greinke
6. Chris Carpenter
7. CC Sabathia
8. Rich Harden
9. Ted Lilly
10. Josh Beckett or Roy Owsalt

Jake Peavy does not quite make the cut. He had a losing record last year and is not doing that well this year.