Don Kessinger

[Cowtipper]

Offensively, Don Kessinger wasn't very good. He hit only .252 with an OPS+ of 73. And yet, he managed to make the All-Star team six times, so people must have thought he was pretty talented. He won two Gold Gloves at shortstop, and he led all shortstops in putouts three times, assists four times, double plays four times, and fielding percentage once. He also once had a 54 game errorless streak.

Statistically, Kessinger is offensively similar to one Hall of Famer: Johnny Evers. He is also similar to Alfredo Griffin, Larry Bowa, Roger Peckinpaugh, Bill Russell, Kid Gleason, Roy McMillan, Ozzie Guillen, Tony Taylor and Joe Quinn.

In his first and only year of Hall of Fame eligibility in 1985, he received two votes.

So, should Kessinger be in the Hall of Fame? Does his defensive ability make up for his offensive lacking?

[bambambaseball]

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::r ofl::rofl::rofl:

[SavoyBG]

Offensively, Don Kessinger wasn't very good. He hit only .252 with an OPS+ of 73. And yet, he managed to make the All-Star team six times, so people must have thought he was pretty talented. He won two Gold Gloves at shortstop, and he led all shortstops in putouts three times, assists four times, double plays four times, and fielding percentage once. He also once had a 54 game errorless streak.

Statistically, Kessinger is offensively similar to one Hall of Famer: Johnny Evers. He is also similar to Alfredo Griffin, Larry Bowa, Roger Peckinpaugh, Bill Russell, Kid Gleason, Roy McMillan, Ozzie Guillen, Tony Taylor and Joe Quinn.

In his first and only year of Hall of Fame eligibility in 1985, he received two votes.

So, should Kessinger be in the Hall of Fame? Does his defensive ability make up for his offensive lacking?


Are you serious here?

Why don't we run a poll and see if George Theodore is a hall of famer?

Kessinger is nowhere near similar offensively to Johnny Evers, who had a career OPS+ of 106. Evers also played in 300 less games than Kessinger, played his entire career in the deadball era, and still scored more runs and had more RBIs than Kessinger, who had hall of fame hitters Banks and Williams and also Santo hitting behind him.

Johnny Evers was an excellent player who is not far from being a hall of fame level player, and is in the Cooperstwon hall. Kessinger is just a good regular.

WIN SHARES CAREER
Kesinger - 159
Evers - 268

TOP THREE SEASONS
Kessinger - 23, 15, 14
Evers - 28, 27, 27 (in shorter seasons, too)

WS per 162
Kessinger - 12.40
Evers - 24.34

Evers was almost twice as valuable per game as Kessinger was.

[Cougar]

Kessinger was a poor man's Mark Belanger.

[SABR Matt]

Defensively, I get this card for Kessinger:
Ps Yr EqG Wins PCA-BA
SS 1968 158 4.61 0.318
SS 1969 156 4.24 0.309
SS 1970 152 3.97 0.304
SS 1972 143 3.71 0.303
SS 1976 103 2.07 0.277
SS 1967 138 2.57 0.271
SS 1979 32 0.60 0.271
SS 1971 152 2.85 0.271
SS 1973 157 2.58 0.261
SS 1978 109 1.57 0.252
2B 1976 25 0.37 0.249
SS 1965 101 1.35 0.248
SS 1975 131 1.28 0.231
SS 1966 142 1.33 0.230
SS 1974 144 0.58 0.206

If by poor man's Mark Belanger, you mean the Mark Belanger you would buy if you were unemployed during the great depression...maybe.

[Cowtipper]

So...is that a no?

[Cowtipper]

Are you serious here?

Why don't we run a poll and see if George Theodore is a hall of famer?


Because he only played two seasons.



Kessinger is nowhere near similar offensively to Johnny Evers, who had a career OPS+ of 106. Evers also played in 300 less games than Kessinger, played his entire career in the deadball era, and still scored more runs and had more RBIs than Kessinger, who had hall of fame hitters Banks and Williams and also Santo hitting behind him.

Johnny Evers was an excellent player who is not far from being a hall of fame level player, and is in the Cooperstwon hall. Kessinger is just a good regular.

WIN SHARES CAREER
Kesinger - 159
Evers - 268

TOP THREE SEASONS
Kessinger - 23, 15, 14
Evers - 28, 27, 27 (in shorter seasons, too)

WS per 162
Kessinger - 12.40
Evers - 24.34

Evers was almost twice as valuable per game as Kessinger was.
Don't blame me, blame Baseball Reference.

[OleMissCub]

I know Mr. Kessinger somewhat well from my 7 years spent in Oxford, MS. Excellent human being, but a Hall of Famer....

NO WAY IN HELL

[Cougar]

Defensively, I get this card for Kessinger:
Ps Yr EqG Wins PCA-BA
SS 1968 158 4.61 0.318
SS 1969 156 4.24 0.309
SS 1970 152 3.97 0.304
SS 1972 143 3.71 0.303
SS 1976 103 2.07 0.277
SS 1967 138 2.57 0.271
SS 1979 32 0.60 0.271
SS 1971 152 2.85 0.271
SS 1973 157 2.58 0.261
SS 1978 109 1.57 0.252
2B 1976 25 0.37 0.249
SS 1965 101 1.35 0.248
SS 1975 131 1.28 0.231
SS 1966 142 1.33 0.230
SS 1974 144 0.58 0.206

If by poor man's Mark Belanger, you mean the Mark Belanger you would buy if you were unemployed during the great depression...maybe.

A homeless man's Mark Belanger?

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

Common Cowtipper, you were doing so well lately with picks that at least could be conceivable to a HOF discussion. This is no where close to being worthy of one. Worse than the Tommy Herr thread which was pretty bad in of itself :thumbsdown:

I never thought in a million years a player with a 73 career OPS+ playing at Wrigley Field & a career high BA of .274 with no special skills would ever be mentioned as a candidate on this thread - so I guess I've seen it all over here.

[jalbright]

Bambam,

Your reaction was a series of rofl icons--yet you're recorded by the poll as voting for Kessinger's induction? Is that a mistake, or what?

[bambambaseball]

Bambam,

Your reaction was a series of rofl icons--yet you're recorded by the poll as voting for Kessinger's induction? Is that a mistake, or what?

Mistake. Shoulda been no!

[Cougar]

Bambam,

Your reaction was a series of rofl icons--yet you're recorded by the poll as voting for Kessinger's induction? Is that a mistake, or what?

Mistake. Shoulda been no!

I guess it's easy to mis-click when you're ROFL!!

[jalbright]

Mistake. Shoulda been no!

I corrected it, though your name probably won't show anywhere now.

[Brad Harris]

So, should Kessinger be in the Hall of Fame? Does his defensive ability make up for his offensive lacking?
No and no.

[bambambaseball]

Oops. Please delete

[Cowtipper]

Oops. Please delete

LaMarr Hoyt was the man.

[bambambaseball]

LaMarr Hoyt was the man.

He was. I meant to start a new thread about him but accidentally hit reply to your thread first. Sorry about that! :hide:

[KCGHOST]

Amongst players who logged at least 1000 games at SS, Kessinger is amongst the Bottom Ten in offensive production.

[Freakshow]

Amongst players who logged at least 1000 games at SS, Kessinger is amongst the Bottom Ten in offensive production.Lowest OPS+, 1000+ games at SS
Cnt Player OPS+ RC PA From To
+----+-----------------+----+----+-----+----+----+
1 Bobby Wine 55 226 3467 1960 1972
2 Dal Maxvill 57 271 3898 1962 1975
3 Joe DeMaestri 62 294 3678 1951 1961
4 Neifi Perez 64 567 5510 1996 2007
5 Tim Foli 64 526 6573 1970 1985
6 Ed Brinkman 65 495 6640 1961 1975
7 Everett Scott 65 505 6373 1914 1926
8 George McBride 65 398 6235 1901 1920
9 Gary DiSarcina 66 356 4032 1989 2000
10 Leo Durocher 66 512 5827 1925 1945
11 Alfredo Griffin 67 615 7330 1976 1993
12 Roger Metzger 67 370 4676 1970 1980
13 Wally Gerber 67 504 5816 1914 1929
14 Ozzie Guillen 68 631 7133 1985 2000
15 Mark Belanger 68 535 6602 1965 1982
16 Bones Ely 69 504 5563 1884 1902
17 Larry Bowa 71 837 9103 1970 1985
18 Frank Taveras 71 397 4399 1971 1982
19 Roy McMillan 72 692 7653 1951 1966
20 Mickey Doolan 72 506 6598 1905 1918
21 Dick Schofield 73 453 4928 1983 1996
22 Don Kessinger 73 769 8529 1964 1979 Lowest OPS+, 1600+ games at SS
Cnt Player OPS+ RC PA From To
+----+-----------------+----+----+-----+----+----+
1 Ed Brinkman 65 495 6640 1961 1975
2 Everett Scott 65 505 6373 1914 1926
3 George McBride 65 398 6235 1901 1920
4 Alfredo Griffin 67 615 7330 1976 1993
5 Ozzie Guillen 68 631 7133 1985 2000
6 Mark Belanger 68 535 6602 1965 1982
7 Larry Bowa 71 837 9103 1970 1985
8 Roy McMillan 72 692 7653 1951 1966
9 Mickey Doolan 72 506 6598 1905 1918
10 Don Kessinger 73 769 8529 1964 1979
11 Tommy Corcoran 74 852 9368 1890 1907
12 Germany Smith 75 633 6995 1884 1898
13 Royce Clayton 77 829 8164 1991 2007
14 Monte Cross 80 574 6711 1892 1907
15 Bill Russell 82 757 8020 1969 1986
16 Luis Aparicio 82 1135 11230 1956 1973
17 Rabbit Maranville 82 1081 11256 1912 1935
18 Omar Vizquel 83 1248 11160 1989 2009
19 Greg Gagne 83 634 6207 1983 1997
20 Orlando Cabrera 85 799 6856 1997 2009

[PVNICK]

In theory the last chart makes Vizquel a HOF candidate by the Aparicio/Maranville standard.

[Aqua]

In a way, Kessinger is an interesting question. Not because he's HoF material -- I don't think even his parents would think that -- but because I'd be interested to know how many six-time all-stars are farther away from the HoF line than Kessinger is. I don't think it'd be that many; it's (to me) an interesting example of a usual marker of goodness (if not greatness) being very, very misleading.

[Cougar]

Omar Vizquel has played more games at shortstop than anyone, ever. Intuitively, that seems like a HOF achievement.

Also, he's a half dozen hits from tying Luis Aparicio for the most hits ever from a person manning the shortstop position. (Wagner, Ripken, Yount, et al logging a number of seasons at other positions). He shouldn't hold this record for long...Jeter's only around 50 hits behind him, and barring unforeseen calamity will pass Omar and Luis next season if not this one.

He has more hits than Aparicio overall, making him the Venezuelan hit king.

It can't be overstated that reaching these marks of distinction is more of an indicator of how valuable Vizquel has been with the glove than any utility he brings with the bat. But, historic value is historic value.

[PVNICK]

The thing that bothers me about Vizquel is that he seems to get written up as being = Ozzie Smith. He's not close either offensively or defensively and along with his DP partner Alomar got glorified (and overrated) for making some highlight worthy DPs that got on ESPN.

[Brad Harris]

The thing that bothers me about Vizquel is that he seems to get written up as being = Ozzie Smith. He's not close either offensively or defensively and along with his DP partner Alomar got glorified (and overrated) for making some highlight worthy DPs that got on ESPN.
That's what his supporters have used as their primary argument for his candidacy all these years. It's a poor argument and if it's his only one, speaks volumes against his election, IMHO.

[Brad Harris]

In a way, Kessinger is an interesting question. Not because he's HoF material -- I don't think even his parents would think that -- but because I'd be interested to know how many six-time all-stars are farther away from the HoF line than Kessinger is. I don't think it'd be that many; it's (to me) an interesting example of a usual marker of goodness (if not greatness) being very, very misleading.
This is a great question!

[PVNICK]

you'll note that a large number of the guys on the list were his direct contemporaries so maybe he was just not as crappy as the rest. That and the Wrigley field boost to his numbers may go a long way to explaining things.

[SABR Matt]

Omar Vizquel is catastrophically overrated on defense. The PBP metrics we do have onlyh cover the last several years of his career, but they don't show him as being anything more than a luke-warm solid fielder other than te 2007 season where he had an upspike year for some reason. The non-PBP fielding metrics (PCA, FRAA WS) mark him as a good solid B+ to A- level fielder but hardly Ozzie Smith in terms of impact.

[Cougar]

I don't think a shortstop has to be >=Ozzie to be a legit HOFer.

Ozzie is Ozzie; Omar is Omar. Judge them on their individual merits.

[SABR Matt]

When a shortstop hits like Ozzie Smith (read: not all that well) and his glove is nowhere near the impact of Ozzie, he's a tough sell.

[Brad Harris]

I don't think a shortstop has to be >=Ozzie to be a legit HOFer.

I disagree. Ozzie's primary argument was that he was the greatest defensive shortstop in history. If Vizquel's primary argument is that he's Ozzie's equal (or better), then that's precisely the argument that has to be proven.

The Hall is already littered with too many "all field, no hit" types at that position. Vizquel doesn't stand out among them.

[Aqua]

I went through the entire list of six-time all-stars, trying to find anyone worse than Don Kessinger. Up next: the results of that search.

Ed Bailey? He made the all-star team as a catcher in 1956, 57, 60, 61 (2), and 63. It's sort of cheating to list him as a six-time all-star since that depends on his being named twice in the same season. He had only half as many PAs as Kessinger, but he was also playing a more demanding position. He also had two seasons with an OPS+ over 140 (1956, 1963); Kessinger never had an OPS+ over 90, so that's a pretty clear peak advantage. Bailey also had a career OPS+ of 110. I think it's advantage Bailey.

Ewell Blackwell? All-star 1946-1951. 82-78 career record, 1321 innings, 120 career ERA+. He had two awesome seasons though, including one (1947) in which he led the league in wins, strikeouts, complete games, HR/9, and K/BB, all while posting a 166 ERA+ in 273 innings. Only two other good seasons. Depends on how much you value career here, I guess.

Frank Malzone? All-star 1957-1960, 1963-1964. Played third base, so a less-demanding position, although he won three gold gloves, so I guess people thought he played it well. Career OPS+ of 92, although he did manage to top 100 three times (career high 106). Never led the league in anything except games, at-bats, and GIDPs, although he did somehow manage to finish fifth in the AL in total bases in 1957 with an OPS+ of 99. (How is that even possible?) Only 2/3 of the PAs of Kessinger. He's a possibility.

Eddie Miller? All-star 1940-1944, 1946-47. Also a shortstop. Even playing the heart of his career during WWII, he only had an OPS+ of 90, driven by a mind-boggling .290 career OBP. His 1940 and 1947 are better than any of Kessinger's season with the bat, but he didn't even get to 6000 PAs, and was out of baseball at age 34. I'd submit that he was clearly worse than Kessinger.


That's it. I couldn't find anyone else who was even close.


As a bonus, here's a partial list of people who DIDN'T make the all-star team as many times as Don Kessinger: Bobby Abreu, Richie Ashburn, Albert Belle, Vida Blue, Lou Brock, Jim Edmonds, George Foster, Jason Giambi, Hank Greenberg, Keith Hernandez, Orel Hershiser, Andruw Jones, Jim Kaat, Jeff Kent, Jack Morris, Phil Niekro, David Ortiz, Rafael Palmeiro, Gaylord Perry, Andy Pettitte, Jorge Posada, Dan Quisenberry, Allie Reynolds, Phil Rizzuto, Babe Ruth (I know, I know, but I thought I'd sneak that in ;) ), Joe Sewell, Bruce Sutter, Don Sutton, Miguel Tejada, Jim Thome, Omar Vizquel (since we were just talking about him), Larry Walker, David Wells, Hoyt Wilhelm, Bernie Williams, and Robin Yount.

[bambambaseball]

Wow, great research!

Ewell Blackwell was an outstanding pitcher who burned out quickly. He was even more dominant then Mario Soto in his day, so hes out of place there. To be honest, I think all the guys you listed were better players then Kessinger. Your post does a good job showing just how bad Kessinger was.

So whats the deal? Why did he get to be an all star 6 times?

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

I went through the entire list of six-time all-stars, trying to find anyone worse than Don Kessinger. Up next: the results of that search.

Ed Bailey? He made the all-star team as a catcher in 1956, 57, 60, 61 (2), and 63. It's sort of cheating to list him as a six-time all-star since that depends on his being named twice in the same season. He had only half as many PAs as Kessinger, but he was also playing a more demanding position. He also had two seasons with an OPS+ over 140 (1956, 1963); Kessinger never had an OPS+ over 90, so that's a pretty clear peak advantage. Bailey also had a career OPS+ of 110. I think it's advantage Bailey.

Ewell Blackwell? All-star 1946-1951. 82-78 career record, 1321 innings, 120 career ERA+. He had two awesome seasons though, including one (1947) in which he led the league in wins, strikeouts, complete games, HR/9, and K/BB, all while posting a 166 ERA+ in 273 innings. Only two other good seasons. Depends on how much you value career here, I guess.

Frank Malzone? All-star 1957-1960, 1963-1964. Played third base, so a less-demanding position, although he won three gold gloves, so I guess people thought he played it well. Career OPS+ of 92, although he did manage to top 100 three times (career high 106). Never led the league in anything except games, at-bats, and GIDPs, although he did somehow manage to finish fifth in the AL in total bases in 1957 with an OPS+ of 99. (How is that even possible?) Only 2/3 of the PAs of Kessinger. He's a possibility.

Eddie Miller? All-star 1940-1944, 1946-47. Also a shortstop. Even playing the heart of his career during WWII, he only had an OPS+ of 90, driven by a mind-boggling .290 career OBP. His 1940 and 1947 are better than any of Kessinger's season with the bat, but he didn't even get to 6000 PAs, and was out of baseball at age 34. I'd submit that he was clearly worse than Kessinger.


That's it. I couldn't find anyone else who was even close.


As a bonus, here's a partial list of people who DIDN'T make the all-star team as many times as Don Kessinger: Bobby Abreu, Richie Ashburn, Albert Belle, Vida Blue, Lou Brock, Jim Edmonds, George Foster, Jason Giambi, Hank Greenberg, Keith Hernandez, Orel Hershiser, Andruw Jones, Jim Kaat, Jeff Kent, Jack Morris, Phil Niekro, David Ortiz, Rafael Palmeiro, Gaylord Perry, Andy Pettitte, Jorge Posada, Dan Quisenberry, Allie Reynolds, Phil Rizzuto, Babe Ruth (I know, I know, but I thought I'd sneak that in ;) ), Joe Sewell, Bruce Sutter, Don Sutton, Miguel Tejada, Jim Thome, Omar Vizquel (since we were just talking about him), Larry Walker, David Wells, Hoyt Wilhelm, Bernie Williams, and Robin Yount.

Nice research there. Its clear to me Kessinger is the worst player amongst those all-stars. What's even more shocking are guys listed in the bonus round who haven't been to the AS games as much as Kessinger; guys with dominant peaks and HOF careers. I guess the late 60's and 70's were littered with zero hit shortstops, so Kessinger, with a good glove, was more an All-Star by default than anything he accomplished.

[Brad Harris]

Bailey's total was always partially the consequence of Cincinnati's ballot stuffing back in the day. Ruth Lyons, God bless you!