BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1952

[Ace Venom]

PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING!

Format and Rules
Voting Rules: Voters may vote for between 0-15 candidates. Votes will be made public, and voters are encouraged to post their ballots in the thread and not view results before voting. PLEASE LIMIT YOUR BALLOT TO 15 VOTES AT MOST. EXCESS VOTES MAY RESULT IN YOUR BALLOT BEING DISQUALIFIED.
-Blank Ballots: A "None of the Above" option is available if you believe no one is worthy and you wish to submit a blank ballot. This option is not to be taken lightly and it is strongly urged that it be used only after the utmost consideration, as non-votes carry great weight. Additionally, if using this option, please post your rationale.

Voting Criteria: Players are to be evaluated within the context of the era in which they played and the history of the game to that point. Players are not to be held to standards that would materialize at a time beyond the year of the current election. Modern statistical analysis is permitted but must be applied strictly within historical context not to go beyond the year of the current election. Players are to be judged based solely on their playing careers. Other, non-playing contributions may be considered to the extent that they coincided with a player's playing career (such as a player/manager).

Thoughtfulness and Editing Ballots: Please review and thoughtfully consider the candidates before voting, and make sure you have accurately filled out your ballot before submitting. Requests for editing ballots after the fact will generally not be honored. Exceptions might be made if a voter accidentally voted for the wrong player or accidentally went over the voting limit (but I strongly encourage you to do your best to prevent either from happening).

Required Support: Players receiving at least 75% support in an election will be elected. Players need at least 5% support to appear on the next ballot.

Player Eligibility: Players eligible for an election will have last played at least 5 years prior to the election year and have appeared in at least 10 Major League seasons. If a player appeared in less than 10 seasons, he may still be eligible if he had a minimum of 3000 PAs or 1500 IP, though extra scrutiny will be applied. Players will remain on the ballot for 15 years, provided they continue to receive at least 5% of the vote, at which point they will become indefinitely eligible for periodic elections conducted by the Veterans Committee.
- Age Exception: For players 40 or older, they will become eligible the later of either 5 years after their last year of continuous play, or their first inactive year at age 45 or older.
- Death Exception: For players who meet the criteria for consideration, but die before their first year of eligibility can have the five year waiting period waived and placed on the ballot the year of death.

Election Period: Elections will close exactly one week after starting. The next election might not commence for another day or two.

Conduct Policy: Every vote is a voter's opinion on who should be elected to the Hall of Fame. It is our responsibility as voters to be respectful towards each other. Personal attacks should not be tolerated and you should notify a moderator rather than allowing an argument to escalate and further derail discussion of the candidates.

1952 Guide
There are 50 candidates on the 1952 ballot - 28 holdovers and 22 first timers. First time eligible players last played in 1947 (unless qualifying under the age or death rule) or were omitted on the ballot in previous years.

Newly Eligible (22)
Jim Bagby
George Case
Spud Chandler
Roy Cullenbine
Lou Finney
Hank Greenberg
Stan Hack
Mel Harder
Frankie Hayes
Lee Handley
Rollie Hemsley
Billy Herman
Joe Kuhel
Billy Jurges
Chet Laabs
Cookie Lavagetto
Ernie Lombardi
Al Lopez
Johnny Murphy
Mel Ott
Claude Passeau
Cecil Travis

Holdovers (28)
Player Year of Eligibility Previous Support High Support Low Support
Dick Bartell 2nd 11.43% 11.43% (1951) 11.43% (1951)
Wally Berger 7th 40.00% 53.85% (1947) 38.24% (1950)
Jim Bottomley 11th 25.71% 28.00% (1949) 20.59% (1950)
Tommy Bridges 2nd 28.57% 28.57% (1951) 28.57% (1951)
Harlond Clift 3rd 11.43% 11.43% (1951) 8.82% (1950)
Earle Combs 13th 11.43% 24.14% (1945) 8.82% (1950)
Kiki Cuyler 10th 37.14% 55.17% (1945) 33.33% (1946)
Paul Derringer 3rd 5.71% 5.88% (1950) 5.71% (1951)
Leo Durocher 3rd 5.71% 11.76% (1950) 5.71% (1951)
Wes Ferrell 7th 60.00% 64.00% (1949) 50.00% (1950)
Rick Ferrell 3rd 8.57% 8.82% (1950) 8.57% (1951)
Lefty Gomez 5th 57.14% 57.14% (1951) 38.46 (1948)
Burleigh Grimes 14th 57.14% 60.71% (1947) 47.06% (1950)
Babe Herman 10th 8.57% 20.00% (1943) 8.57% (1951)
Pinky Higgins 2nd 5.71% 5.71% (1951) 5.71% (1951)
Bob Johnson 3rd 42.86% 42.86% (1951) 26.47% (1950)
Chuck Klein 4th 45.71% 45.71% (1951) 44.00% (1949)
Tony Lazzeri 8th 25.71% 37.93% (1945) 23.53% (1950)
Heinie Manush 8th 20.00% 34.48% (1945) 20.00% (1951)
Rabbit Maranville 15th 60.00% 68.97% (1945) 52.94% (1950)
Pepper Martin 4th 8.57% 12.00% (1949) 8.57% (1951)
Buddy Myer 7th 14.29% 16.00% (1949) 11.11% (1946)
Sam Rice 14th 60.00% 71.43% (1941) 52.26% (1946)
Eppa Rixey 15th 51.43% 60.00% (1938) 37.04% (1946)
Hal Trosky 2nd 14.29% 14.29% (1951) 14.29% (1951)
Lloyd Waner 3rd 11.43% 11.76% (1950) 11.43% (1951)
Lon Warneke 3rd 14.29% 14.29% (1951) 8.82% (1950)
Hack Wilson 14th 54.29% 57.69% (1948) 40.74% (1944)

Holdovers Dropped From Last Election (0)
Player Reason Years on Ballot High Support Low Support


Last Year of Eligibility (2)
Player High Support
Rabbit Maranville 68.97% (1945)
Eppa Rixey 60.00% (1938)


Penultimate Year of Eligibility (3)
Player High Support
Burleigh Grimes 60.71% (1947)
Sam Rice 71.43% (1941)
Hack Wilson 57.69% (1948)


Holdovers Receiving At Least 50% in Previous Election (7)
Player Previous Support Years with At Least 50% Support
Wes Ferrell 60.00% 6
Lefty Gomez 57.14% 1
Burleigh Grimes 57.14% 9
Rabbit Maranville 60.00% 14
Sam Rice 60.00% 13
Eppa Rixey 51.43% 9
Hack Wilson 54.29% 9

Hall of Famers
Players Elected - 128
Player Year Elected Election Percentage Years on Ballot Position Primary Team Active Years Total Seasons Living/Deceased Age at Election
Pete Alexander 1935 93.94% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1911-1930 20 Deceased (1887-1950) 48
Cap Anson 1902 100% 1 First Base Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1871-1897 27 Deceased (1852-1922) 50
Earl Averill 1947 82.14% 2 Center Field Cleveland Indians (AL) 1929-1941 13 Living - Age 50 45
Frank Baker 1927 96.43% 1 Third Base Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1908-1914, 1916-1919, 1921-1922 13 Living - Age 64 41
Ross Barnes^ 1911 76.00% 11 Second Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879, 1881 9 Deceased (1850-1915) 61
Jake Beckley 1917 76.00% 6 First Base Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1887-1907 20 Deceased (1867-1918) 50
John Beckwith*` 1947 (VC) 91.67% VC Third Base Chicago Giants (NNL) 1916-1938 19 Living - Age 50 45
Charlie Bennett 1907 75.00% 7 Catcher Detroit Wolverines (NL) 1878, 1880-1893 15 Deceased (1854-1927) 53
Roger Bresnahan 1925 79.17% 6 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1897, 1900-1915 17 Deceased (1879-1944) 46
Dan Brouthers 1901 90.00% 1 First Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1896, 1904 18 Deceased (1858-1932) 50
Mordecai Brown 1921 96.77% 1 Pitcher Chicago Cubs (NL) 1903-1916 14 Deceased (1876-1948) 45
Pete Browning 1909 77.27% 9 Left Field/Center Field Louisville Colonels (NL/AA) 1882-1894 13 Deceased (1861-1905) Deceased
Jesse Burkett 1910 92.00% 1 Left Field Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1890-1895 16 Living - Age 84 42
Max Carey 1934 82.14% 1 Center Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1910-1929 20 Living - Age 62 44
Bob Caruthers 1909 77.27% 9 Pitcher/Right Field St. Louis Browns (Cardinals) (NL/AA) 1884-1893 10 Deceased (1864-1911) 45
Frank Chance 1932 83.33% 14 First Base Chicago Cubs (NL) 1898-1914 17 Deceased (1876-1924) Deceased
Oscar Charleston*` 1947 (VC) 91.67% VC Center Field Indianapolis ABCs (I/NNL) 1915-1941 27 Living - Age 56 51
Cupid Childs 1920 76.92% 15 Second Base Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1888, 1890-1901 13 Deceased (1867-1912) Deceased
Fred Clarke 1917 88.00% 1 Left Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1894-1915 21 Living - Age 82 45
John Clarkson 1901 90.00% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1882, 1884-1894 12 Deceased (1861-1909) 40
Ty Cobb 1933 96.55% 1 Center Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1905-1928 24 Living - Age 66 47
Mickey Cochrane 1942 89.19% 1 Catcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1925-1937 13 Living - Age 48 38
Eddie Collins 1935 96.67% 1 Second Base Chicago White Sox (AL) 1906-1930 25 Deceased (1887-1951) 48
Jimmy Collins 1913 82.61% 1 Third Base Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1895-1908 14 Deceased (1870-1943) 43
Roger Connor 1902 79.17% 1 First Base New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Deceased (1857-1931) 45
Andy Cooper*` 1947 (VC) 83.33% VC Pitcher Kansas City Monarchs (NNL/NAL) 1920-1941 22 Deceased (1898-1941) Deceased
Wilbur Cooper* 1950 (VC) 75.00% VC Pitcher Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1912-1926 15 Living - Age 60 58
Stan Coveleski 1934 89.29% 2 Pitcher Cleveland Indians (AL) 1912, 1916-1928 14 Living - Age 63 45
Sam Crawford 1922 92.86% 1 Right Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1899-1917 19 Living - Age 72 41
Joe Cronin 1950 88.24% 1 Shortstop Boston Red Sox (AL) 1926-1945 20 Living - Age 46 44
Bill Dahlen 1916 88.00% 1 Shortstop Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1891-1911 21 Deceased (1870-1950) 46
George Davis 1914 84.62% 1 Shortstop New York Giants (NL) 1890-1909 20 Deceased (1870-1940) 44
Ed Delahanty 1908 96.00% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1903 16 Deceased (1867-1903) Deceased
Dizzy Dean 1948 80.77% 3 Pitcher St. Louis Cardinals (NL) 1930, 1932-1941, 1947 12 Living - Age 43 38
Bill Dickey 1951 94.29% 1 Catcher New York Yankees (AL) 1928-1943, 1946 17 Living - Age 45 44
Larry Doyle 1926 76.00% 2 Second Base New York Giants (NL) 1907-1920 14 Living - Age 66 40
Hugh Duffy 1918 75.00% 8 Center Field/Outfield Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1888-1891, 1904-1906 17 Living - Age 85 52
Buck Ewing 1902 83.33% 1 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Deceased (1859-1906) 44
Red Faber 1940 76.46% 3 Pitcher Chicago White Sox (AL) 1914-1933 20 Living - Age 64 52
Elmer Flick 1916 80.00% 1 Right Field Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1898-1910 13 Living - Age 76 40
Willie Foster*` 1947 (VC) 75.00% VC Pitcher Chicago American Giants (ANL/NNL) 1923-1938 16 Living - Age 48 43
Jimmie Foxx 1950 100% 1 First Base Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1925-1942, 1945 20 Living - Age 45 43
Frankie Frisch 1942 91.89% 1 Second Base New York Giants (NL) 1919-1937 19 Living - Age 53 43
Pud Galvin 1903 80.77% 3 Pitcher Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1875, 1879-1892 15 Deceased (1856-1902) Deceased
Lou Gehrig 1944 100% 1 First Base New York Yankees (AL) 1923-1939 17 Deceased (1903-1941) Deceased
Charlie Gehringer 1947 100% 1 Second Base Detroit Tigers (AL) 1924-1942 19 Living - Age 49 44
Josh Gibson*` 1947 (VC) 100% VC Catcher Homestead Grays (ANL/NNL) 1929-1946 18 Deceased (1911-1947) Deceased
Jack Glasscock 1911 84.00% 11 Shortstop Cleveland Blues (NL) 1879-1895 17 Deceased (1857-1947) 54
George Gore 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1879-1892 14 Deceased (1867-1933) 52
Goose Goslin 1943 93.33% 1 Left Field Washington Senators (NL) 1921-1938 18 Living - Age 51 42
Frank Grant*` 1947 (VC) 83.33% VC Second Base Cuban Giants (I/MSL) 1886-1905 20 Deceased (1865-1937) Deceased
Clark Griffith* 1940 (VC) 78.57% VC Pitcher Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1891, 1893-1909, 1912-1914 20 Living - Age 82 70
Heinie Groh 1936 81.25% 5 Third Base Cincinnati Reds (NL) 1912-1927 16 Living - Age 63 47
Lefty Grove 1946 100% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1925-1941 17 Living - Age 52 46
Billy Hamilton 1906 82.61% 1 Center Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1901 14 Deceased (1866-1940) 40
Gabby Hartnett 1946 96.30% 1 Catcher Chicago Cubs (NL) 1922-1941 20 Living - Age 52 46
Harry Heilmann 1937 96.18% 1 Right Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1914, 1916-1930, 1932 17 Deceased (1894-1951) 43
Pete Hill*` 1947 (VC) 91.67% VC Center Field Chicago American Giants (I) 1899-1925 27 Deceased (1880-1951) 67
Paul Hines 1904 76.00% 4 Center Field Providence Grays (NL) 1872-1891 20 Deceased (1855-1935) 49
Rogers Hornsby 1942 97.30% 1 Second Base St. Louis Cardinals (NL) 1915-1937 23 Living - Age 55 45
Carl Hubbell 1948 96.15% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1928-1943 16 Living - Age 50 45
Hughie Jennings 1927 75.00% 14 Shortstop Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1891-1903, 1907, 1909, 1912, 1918 17 Deceased (1869-1928) 58
Grant Johnson*` 1947 (VC) 83.33% VC Shortstop Brooklyn Royal Giants (I) 1895-1916 22 Living - Age 78 73
Walter Johnson 1932 100% 1 Pitcher Washington Senators (AL) 1907-1927 21 Deceased (1887-1946) 45
Addie Joss 1926 76.00% 15 Pitcher Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1902-1910 9 Deceased (1880-1911) Deceased
Tim Keefe 1901 75.00% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1893 14 Deceased (1857-1933) 44
Willie Keeler 1916 92.00% 2 Right Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1892-1910 19 Deceased (1872-1923) 44
Joe Kelley 1920 84.62% 8 Left Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1891-1906, 1908 17 Deceased (1871-1943) 49
King Kelly 1902 75.00% 2 Right Field/Catcher Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1878-1893 16 Deceased (1857-1894) Deceased
Napoleon Lajoie 1921 96.77% 1 Second Base Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1896-1916 21 Living - Age 78 47
Tommy Leach* 1940 (VC) 85.71% VC Third Base/Center Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1898-1915, 1918 19 Living - Age 75 63
John Henry Lloyd*` 1947 (VC) 100% VC Shortstop Lincoln Giants (I/ECL) 1906-1932 27 Living - Age 68 63
Herman Long* 1925 (VC) 75.00% VC Shortstop Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1889-1904 16 Deceased (1866-1909) Deceased
Ted Lyons 1949 80.00% 3 Pitcher Chicago White Sox (AL) 1928-1942, 1946 16 Living - Age 52 49
Sherry Magee 1924 86.21% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1904-1919 16 Deceased (1884-1929) 40
Christy Mathewson 1922 93.55% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1900-1916 17 Deceased (1880-1925) 41
Joe McGinnity 1913 91.30% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1899-1908 10 Deceased (1871-1929) 42
Bid McPhee 1905 75.00% 2 Second Base Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1882-1899 18 Deceased (1859-1943) 42
Cal McVey*^ 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Catcher/First Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879 9 Deceased (1849-1926) 71
Jose Mendez*` 1947 (VC) 91.67% VC Pitcher Kansas City Monarchs (NNL) 1908-1926 19 Deceased (1887-1928) Deceased
Bill Monroe*` 1947 (VC) 75.00% VC Second Base Brooklyn Royal Giants (I) 1896-1914 19 Deceased (1876-1914) Deceased
Tony Mullane 1908 80.00% 8 Pitcher Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1881-1894 14 Deceased (1859-1944) 49
Kid Nichols 1911 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1890-1901, 1904-1906 15 Living - Age 83 42
Jim O'Rourke 1901 90.00% 1 Left Field/Utility New York Giants (NL) 1872-1893, 1904 23 Deceased (1850-1919) 51
Alejandro Oms*` 1947 (VC) 75.00% VC Center Field Cuban Stars (East) (ECL/ANL) 1917-1935 19 Deceased (1895-1946) Deceased
Dickey Pearce*^ 1920 (VC) 100% VC Shortstop Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) 1871-1877 6 Deceased (1836-1908) Deceased
Lip Pike*^ 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Center Field Baltimore Canaries (NA) 1871-1878, 1881, 1887 10 Deceased (1845-1926) Deceased
Eddie Plank 1922 92.86% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1901-1917 17 Deceased (1875-1926) 47
Spotswood Poles*` 1947 (VC) 83.33% VC Center Field Lincoln Stars (I) 1909-1923 15 Living - Age 65 60
Charley Radbourn 1901 95.00% 1 Pitcher Providence Grays (NL) 1881-1891 11 Deceased (1854-1897) Deceased
Dick Redding*` 1947 (VC) 91.67% VC Pitcher Brooklyn Royal Giants (I/ECL) 1911-1938 18 Deceased (1891-1948) 56
Hardy Richardson* 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC Second Base/Left Field Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1892 14 Deceased (1855-1931) 65
Bullet Rogan*` 1947 (VC) 100% VC Pitcher Kansas City Monarchs (NNL/NAL) 1917-1938 22 Living - Age 59 54
Edd Roush 1943 76.67% 1 Center Field Cincinnati Reds (NL) 1913-1929, 1931 18 Living - Age 59 49
Red Ruffing 1951 82.86% 2 Pitcher New York Yankees (AL) 1924-1942, 1945-1947 22 Living - Age 47 46
Amos Rusie 1906 78.26% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1889-1895, 1897-1898, 1901 10 Deceased (1871-1942) 35
Babe Ruth 1940 97.06% 1 Right Field/Left Field New York Yankees (AL) 1914-1935 22 Deceased (1895-1948) 45
Jimmy Ryan* 1930 (VC) 86.67% VC Center Field Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1885-1900, 1902, 1903 18 Deceased (1863-1923) Deceased
Louis Santop*` 1947 (VC) 91.67% VC Catcher Hilldale Daises (I) 1909-1926 18 Deceased (1890-1942) Deceased
Joe Sewell 1942 75.68% 5 Shortstop/Third Base Cleveland Indians (AL) 1920-1933 14 Living - Age 53 43
Jimmy Sheckard* 1945 (VC) 83.33% VC Left Field Chicago Cubs (NL) 1897-1913 17 Deceased (1878-1947) 67
Al Simmons 1949 96.00% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1924-1944 21 Living - Age 50 47
George Sisler 1935 90.91% 1 First Base St. Louis Browns (AL) 1915-1922, 1924-1930 15 Living - Age 58 42
Al Spalding^ 1915 80.00% 15 Pitcher Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1878 8 Deceased (1850-1915) Deceased
Tris Speaker 1933 100% 1 Center Field Cleveland Indians (AL) 1907-1928 22 Living - Age 64 45
Joe Start*^ 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC First Base Providence Grays (NL) 1871-1886 16 Deceased (1842-1927) 78
Turkey Stearnes*` 1947 (VC) 100% VC Center Field Detroit Stars (NNL/NAL) 1923-1942 20 Living - Age 51 46
Harry Stovey 1907 75.00% 7 Left Field/First Base Philadelphia Athletics (AA) 1880-1893 14 Deceased (1856-1931) 51
Ezra Sutton* 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Third Base Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1871-1888 18 Deceased (1850-1907) Deceased
Bill Terry 1941 80.00% 1 First Base New York Giants (NL) 1923-1936 14 Living - Age 53 43
Sam Thompson 1907 79.17% 5 Right Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1885-1898, 1906 14 Deceased (1860-1922) 47
Cristobal Torriente*` 1947 (VC) 83.33% VC Center Field Chicago American Giants (NNL) 1913-1928 16 Deceased (1893-1938) Deceased
Pie Traynor 1942 83.78% 1 Third Base Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1920-1937 18 Living - Age 53 42
Dazzy Vance 1940 76.47% 1 Pitcher Brooklyn Robins (Dodgers) (NL) 1915, 1918, 1922-1935 16 Living - Age 61 48
George Van Haltren 1918 75.00% 11 Center Field New York Giants (NL) 1887-1903 17 Deceased (1866-1945) 52
Rube Waddell 1915 84.00% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1897, 1899-1910 13 Deceased (1876-1914) Deceased
Honus Wagner 1922 92.86% 1 Shortstop Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1897-1917 21 Living - Age 78 48
Bobby Wallace 1925 75.00% 3 Shortstop St. Louis Browns (AL) 1894-1918 25 Living - Age 79 52
Ed Walsh 1922 89.29% 1 Pitcher Chicago White Sox (AL) 1904-1917 14 Living - Age 71 41
John Ward 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop/Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1878-1894 17 Deceased (1860-1925) 47
Paul Waner 1950 94.12% 1 Right Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1926-1945 20 Living - Age 49 47
Mickey Welch* 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1892 13 Deceased (1859-1941) 61
Zack Wheat 1932 87.50% 1 Left Field Brooklyn Robins (Dodgers) (NL) 1909-1927 10 Living - Age 64 44
Deacon White 1904 76.00% 4 Catcher/Third Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1871-1890 20 Deceased (1847-1939) 57
Smokey Joe Williams*` 1947 (VC) 100% VC Pitcher Homestead Grays (I/ANL) 1905-1932 28 Deceased (1895-1946) Deceased
Vic Willis 1919 77.78% 5 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1898-1910 13 Deceased (1876-1947) 43
George Wright^ 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1882 12 Deceased (1847-1937) 60
Cy Young 1916 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1890-1911 22 Living - Age 85 49

* = Elected by Veterans Committee
^ = Played Significantly Prior to 1871
` = Played in the Negro Leagues

Players Elected by Primary Position
Catcher (10): Charlie Bennett, Roger Bresnahan, Mickey Cochrane, Bill Dickey, Buck Ewing, Josh Gibson, Gabby Hartnett, Cal McVey, Louis Santop, Deacon White
First Base (9): Cap Anson, Jake Beckley, Dan Brouthers, Frank Chance, Roger Connor, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, George Sisler, Joe Start, Bill Terry
Second Base (12): Ross Barnes, Cupid Childs, Eddie Collins, Larry Doyle, Frankie Frisch, Charlie Gehringer, Frank Grant, Rogers Hornsby, Napoleon Lajoie, Bid McPhee, Bill Monroe, Hardy Richardson
Third Base (7): Frank Baker, John Beckwith, Jimmy Collins, Heinie Groh, Tommy Leach, Ezra Sutton, Pie Traynor
Shortstop (14): Joe Cronin, Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Jack Glasscock, Hughie Jennings, Grant Johnson, John Henry Lloyd, Herman Long, Dickey Pearce, Joe Sewell, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, John Ward, George Wright
Left Field (11): Jesse Burkett, Fred Clarke, Ed Delahanty, Goose Goslin, Joe Kelley, Sherry Magee, Jim O'Rourke, Jimmy Sheckard, Al Simmons, Harry Stovey, Zack Wheat
Center Field (19): Earl Averill, Pete Browning, Max Carey, Oscar Charleston, Ty Cobb, Hugh Duffy, George Gore, Billy Hamilton, Pete Hill, Paul Hines, Alejandro Oms, Lip Pike, Spotswood Poles, Edd Roush, Jimmy Ryan, Tris Speaker, Turkey Stearnes, Cristobal Torriente, George Van Haltren
Right Field (8): Sam Crawford, King Kelly, Elmer Flick, Harry Heilmann, Willie Keeler, Babe Ruth, Sam Thompson, Paul Waner
Pitcher (37): Pete Alexander, Mordecai Brown, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Andy Cooper, Wilbur Cooper, Stan Coveleski, Dizzy Dean, Red Faber, Willie Foster, Pud Galvin, Clark Griffith, Lefty Grove, Carl Hubbell, Walter Johnson, Addie Joss, Tim Keefe, Ted Lyons, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Jose Mendez, Tony Mullane, Kid Nichols, Eddie Plank, Charley Radbourn, Dick Redding, Bullet Rogan, Red Ruffing, Amos Rusie, Al Spalding, Dazzy Vance, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh, Mickey Welch, Smokey Joe Williams, Vic Willis, Cy Young

Players Elected by Year
1901 (5): Dan Brouthers, John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn
1902 (4): Cap Anson, Roger Connor, Buck Ewing, King Kelly
1903 (1): Pud Galvin
1904 (2): Paul Hines, Deacon White
1905 (1): Bid McPhee
1906 (2): Billy Hamilton, Amos Rusie
1907 (5): Charlie Bennett, Harry Stovey, Sam Thompson, John Ward, George Wright
1908 (2): Ed Delahanty, Tony Mullane
1909 (3): Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, George Gore
1910 (1): Jesse Burkett
1911 (3): Ross Barnes, Jack Glasscock, Kid Nichols
1912 (0):
1913 (2): Jimmy Collins, Joe McGinnity
1914 (1): George Davis
1915 (2): Al Spalding, Rube Waddell
1916 (4): Bill Dahlen, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Cy Young
1917 (2): Jake Beckley, Fred Clarke
1918 (2): Hugh Duffy, George Van Haltren
1919 (1): Vic Willis
1920 (2): Cupid Childs, Joe Kelley
- 1920 VC (7): Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Hardy Richardson, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Mickey Welch
1921 (3): Mordecai Brown, Napoleon Lajoie, Christy Mathewson
1922 (4): Sam Crawford, Eddie Plank, Honus Wagner, Ed Walsh
1923 (0):
1924 (1): Sherry Magee
1925 (2): Roger Bresnahan, Bobby Wallace
- 1925 VC (1): Herman Long
1926 (1): Larry Doyle
1927 (2): Frank Baker, Hughie Jennings
1928 (0):
1929 (1): Addie Joss
1930 (0):
- 1930 VC (1): Jimmy Ryan
1931 (0):
1932 (3): Frank Chance, Walter Johnson, Zack Wheat
1933 (2): Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker
1934 (2): Max Carey, Stan Coveleski
1935 (3): Pete Alexander, Eddie Collins, George Sisler
- 1935 VC (0):
1936 (1): Heinie Groh
1937 (1): Harry Heilmann
1938 (0):
1939 (0):
1940 (3): Red Faber, Babe Ruth, Dazzy Vance
- 1940 VC (2): Clark Griffith, Tommy Leach
1941 (1): Bill Terry
1942 (5): Mickey Cochrane, Frankie Frisch, Rogers Hornsby, Joe Sewell, Pie Traynor
1943 (2): Goose Goslin, Edd Roush
1944 (1): Lou Gehrig
1945 (0):
- 1945 VC (1): Jimmy Sheckard
1946 (2): Lefty Grove, Gabby Hartnett
1947 (2): Earl Averill, Charlie Gehringer
- 1947 Negro League Players VC (19): John Beckwith, Oscar Charleston, Andy Cooper, Willie Foster, Josh Gibson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Grant Johnson, John Henry Lloyd, Jose Mendez, Bill Monroe, Alejandro Oms, Spotswood Poles, Dick Redding, Bullet Rogan, Louis Santop, Turkey Stearnes, Cristobal Torriente, Smokey Joe Williams
1948 (2): Dizzy Dean, Carl Hubbell
1949 (2): Ted Lyons, Al Simmons
1950 (3): Joe Cronin, Jimmie Foxx, Paul Waner
- 1950 VC (1): Wilbur Cooper
1951 (2): Bill Dickey, Red Ruffing

Players Elected by Primary Decade
1870s (9): Ross Barnes, Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Al Spalding, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Deacon White, George Wright
1880s (21): Cap Anson, Charlie Bennett, Dan Brouthers, Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Roger Conner, Buck Ewing, Pud Galvin, Jack Glasscock, George Gore, Paul Hines, Tim Keefe, King Kelly, Tony Mullane, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn, Hardy Richardson, Harry Stovey, John Ward, Mickey Welch
1890s (19): Jake Beckley, Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs, Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Ed Delahanty, Hugh Duffy, Frank Grant, Clark Griffith, Billy Hamilton, Hughie Jennings, Joe Kelley, Herman Long, Bid McPhee, Kid Nichols, Jimmy Ryan, Amos Rusie, Sam Thompson, George Van Haltren
1900s (24): Roger Bresnahan, Mordecai Brown, Frank Chance, Fred Clarke, Jimmy Collins, Sam Crawford, Elmer Flick, Pete Hill, Grant Johnson, Addie Joss, Willie Keeler, Napoleon Lajoie, Tommy Leach, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Bill Monroe, Eddie Plank, Jimmy Sheckard, Rube Waddell, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, Ed Walsh, Vic Willis, Cy Young
1910s (17): Pete Alexander, Frank Baker, Max Carey, Wilbur Cooper, Ty Cobb, Eddie Collins, Larry Doyle, Heinie Groh, Walter Johnson, John Henry Lloyd, Sherry Magee, Jose Mendez, Spotswood Poles, Louis Santop, Tris Speaker, Zack Wheat, Smokey Joe Williams
1920s (19): John Beckwith, Oscar Charleston, Andy Cooper, Stan Coveleski, Red Faber, Frankie Frisch, Goose Goslin, Harry Heilmann, Rogers Hornsby, Alejandro Oms, Dick Redding, Bullet Rogan, Edd Roush, Babe Ruth, George Sisler, Joe Sewell, Cristobal Torriente, Pie Traynor, Dazzy Vance
1930s (17): Earl Averill, Mickey Cochrane, Joe Cronin, Dizzy Dean, Bill Dickey, Willie Foster, Jimmie Foxx, Charlie Gehringer, Lou Gehrig, Josh Gibson, Lefty Grove, Gabby Hartnett, Carl Hubbell, Ted Lyons, Red Ruffing, Al Simmons, Turkey Stearnes, Bill Terry, Paul Waner

Players Elected by Primary Organization
Baltimore Canaries (NA) (1): Lip Pike
Baltimore Orioles (NL) (3): Hughie Jennings, Willie Keeler, Joe Kelley
Boston Braves (fka Beaneaters, Red Stockings) (NL, NA) (10): Ross Barnes, John Clarkson, Hugh Duffy, Herman Long, Cal McVey, Kid Nichols, Al Spalding, Ezra Sutton, Vic Willis, George Wright
Boston Red Sox (fka Americans) (AL) (3): Jimmy Collins, Joe Cronin, Cy Young
Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) (1): Dickey Pearce
Brooklyn Dodgers (fka Robins) (NL) (2): Dazzy Vance, Zack Wheat
Brooklyn Royal Giants (I, ECL, NNL) (3): Grant Johnson, Bill Monroe, Dick Redding
Buffalo Bisons (NL) (4): Dan Brouthers, Pud Galvin, Hardy Richardson, Deacon White
Chicago American Giants (I, NNL, NSL, NAL) (3): Willie Foster, Pete Hill, Cristobal Torriente
Chicago Cubs (fka White Stockings, Colts) (NL) (10): Cap Anson, Mordecai Brown, Frank Chance, Bill Dahlen, Clark Griffith, George Gore, Gabby Hartnett, King Kelly, Jimmy Ryan, Jimmy Sheckard
Chicago Giants (NNL) (1): John Beckwith
Chicago White Sox (AL) (4): Eddie Collins, Red Faber, Ted Lyons, Ed Walsh
Cincinnati Reds (NL, AA) (4): Heinie Groh, Bid McPhee, Tony Mullane, Edd Roush
Cleveland Blues (NL) (1): Jack Glasscock
Cleveland Indians (fka Naps) (AL) (7): Earl Averill, Stan Coveleski, Elmer Flick, Addie Joss, Napoleon Lajoie, Joe Sewell, Tris Speaker
Cleveland Spiders (NL) (2): Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs
Cuban Giants (I, MSL) (1): Frank Grant
Cuban Stars (East) (ECL, ANL) (1): Alejandro Oms
Detroit Stars (I, NNL, NAL) (1): Turkey Stearnes
Detroit Tigers (AL) (4): Ty Cobb, Sam Crawford, Charlie Gehringer, Harry Heilmann
Detroit Wolverines (NL) (1): Charlie Bennett
Hilldale Daises (fka Darby Daises) (I, ECL, ANL, EWL) (1): Louis Santop
Homestead Grays (I, ANL, NNL) (2): Josh Gibson, Smokey Joe Williams
Indianapolis ABCs (I, NNL, NSL, NAL) (1): Oscar Charleston
Kansas City Monarchs (I, NNL, NAL) (3): Willie Foster, Jose Mendez, Bullet Rogan
Lincoln Giants (I, ECL, ANL) (1): John Henry Lloyd
Lincoln Stars (I) (1): Spotswood Poles
Louisville Colonels (NL, AA) (1): Pete Browning
New York Giants (NL) (15): Roger Bresnahan, Roger Connor, George Davis, Larry Doyle, Buck Ewing, Frankie Frisch, Carl Hubbell, Tim Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Jim O’Rourke, Amos Rusie, George Van Haltren, John Ward, Mickey Welch
New York Yankees (AL) (4): Bill Dickey, Lou Gehrig, Red Ruffing, Babe Ruth
Philadelphia Athletics (AA) (1): Harry Stovey
Philadelphia Athletics (AL) (7): Frank Baker, Mickey Cochrane, Jimmie Foxx, Lefty Grove, Eddie Plank, Al Simmons, Rube Waddell
Philadelphia Phillies (NL) (5): Pete Alexander, Ed Delahanty, Billy Hamilton, Sherry Magee, Sam Thompson
Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) (8): Jake Beckley, Max Carey, Fred Clarke, Wilbur Cooper, Tommy Leach, Pie Traynor, Honus Wagner, Paul Waner
Providence Grays (NL) (3): Paul Hines, Charley Radbourn, Joe Start
St. Louis Browns (AL) (2): George Sisler, Bobby Wallace
St. Louis Cardinals (fka Browns) (NL, AA) (3): Bob Caruthers, Dizzy Dean, Rogers Hornsby
Washington Senators (AL) (2): Goose Goslin, Walter Johnson

Hall of Fame Contributors Wing
Contributors Elected - 22
Contributor Year Elected
Doc Adams (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=639&pid=16943) 1925
Ed Barrow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Barrow) 1941
Alex Cartwright (http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blbaseball.htm) 1925
Henry Chadwick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Chadwick_(writer)) 1925
Charlie Comiskey (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/blacksox/comiskeybio.html)1925
Jim Creighton (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&bid=770&pid=0) 1925
Rube Foster (http://www.nlbpa.com/foster__andrew_-_rube.html) 1930
Miller Huggins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_Huggins) 1941
William Hulbert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hulbert) 1925
Ned Hanlon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_Hanlon_(baseball)) 1936
Ban Johnson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_Johnson) 1936
Bill Klem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Klem) 1941
Kenesaw Landis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenesaw_Mountain_Landis) 1952
Connie Mack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connie_Mack_(baseball)) 1930
Joe McCarthy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_McCarthy_(baseball)) 1952
John McGraw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McGraw_(baseball)) 1936
Al Reach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Reach) 1946
Francis Richter (http://www.uga.edu/juro/2003/shaw.htm) 1941
Branch Rickey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Rickey) 1946
Frank Selee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Selee) 1936
AG Spalding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Spalding) 1930
Harry Wright (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Wright) 1925

Contributors Elected by Year
1925: Doc Adams, Alex Cartwright, Henry Chadwick, Harry Wright, William Hulbert, Charlie Comiskey, Jim Creighton
1930: Rube Foster, Connie Mack, AG Spalding
1936: Ned Hanlon, Ban Johnson, John McGraw, Frank Selee
1941: Miller Huggins, Bill Klem, Francis Richter, Ed Barrow
1946: Al Reach, Branch Rickey
1951: Kennesaw Landis, Joe McCarthy

Miscellaneous Information
- Highest Regular Election Percentage: Cap Anson, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Charlie Gehringer, Lefty Grove, Walter Johnson, Kid Nichols, Tris Speaker, Cy Young – 100%
- Number of 1st Ballot Electees: 57
- Most Years on Ballot Before Election: Cupid Childs, Addie Joss, Al Spalding – 15
- Number of Players Elected After 10 Years on Ballot: 8
- Number of Players Lasting 15 Years on Ballot without Election: 36
- Number of Players Elected by Veterans Committee: 31
- Highest Percentage Among Players Not Elected: 74.07% - Earl Averill (1946)
- Most Regular Election Electees in One Year: 5 (1901, 1907, 1942)
- Fewest Regular Election Electees in One Year: 0 (1912, 1923, 1928, 1930, 1931, 1938, 1939, 1945)
- Most Veterans Committee Electees in One Year: 19 (1947)
- Largest Ballot: 78 Players (1901)
- Largest Post-1915 Ballot: 50 Players (1952)
- Smallest Ballot: 23 Players (1918)
- Most Votes Cast: 37 (1942)
- Fewest Votes Cast: 20 (1901)
- Team With Most Players Elected: New York Giants - 15
- Team With Second Most Players Elected: Boston Braves and Chicago Cubs - 10 (tied)
- Electee with Longest Post-1871 Career: Smokey Joe Williams - 28
- Electee with Shortest Post-1871 Career: Dickey Pearce – 8 Seasons
- Members Elected as Both Players and Contributors: Al Spalding
- Youngest Elected Player: Amos Rusie – Age 35
- Oldest Elected Player: Joe Start – 78
- Number of Posthumously Elected Players: 25
- Number of Living Hall of Famers: 57
- Number of Deceased Hall of Famers: 71
- Oldest Living Hall of Famer: Hugh Duffy - 86
- Deceased in Past Year:

Number of Ballots Submitted in Past Elections
1901: 20
1902: 24
1903: 26
1904: 25
1905: 24
1906: 23
1907: 24
1908: 25
1909: 22
1910: 25
1911: 25
1912: 23
1913: 23
1914: 26
1915: 25
1916: 25
1917: 25
1918: 24
1919: 27
1920: 26
1921: 31
1922: 28
1923: 25
1924: 29
1925: 24
1926: 25
1927: 28
1928: 27
1929: 25
1930: 25
1931: 32
1932: 24
1933: 29
1934: 28
1935: 33
1936: 32
1937: 34
1938: 30
1939: 32
1940: 34
1941: 35
1942: 37
1943: 30
1944: 27
1945: 29
1946: 27
1947: 28
1948: 26
1949: 25
1950: 34
1951: 35

Links to Past Elections
1901 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77167)
1902 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77464)
1903 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77797)
1904 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78133)
1905 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78417)
1906 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78737)
1907 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79020)
1908 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79393)
1909 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79738)
1910 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80134)
1911 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80597)
1912 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81008)
1913 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81477)
1914 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81965)
1915 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82365)
1916 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82681)
1917 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82940)
1918 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83241)
1919 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83422)
1920 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83665), 1920 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83697)
1921 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83924)
1922 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84099)
1923 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84257)
1924 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84423)
1925 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84552), 1925 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php? t=84636), 1925 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83852)
1926 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84727)
1927 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84871)
1928 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85029)
1929 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85206)
1930 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85358), 1930 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php? t=85439), 1930 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84578)
1931 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85681)
1932 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85850)
1933 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86054)
1934 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86291)
1935 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86514), 1935 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php? t=86576)
1936 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86747), 1936 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85051)
1937 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87002)
1938 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87241)
1939 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87501)
1940 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87800), 1940 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php? t=87854)
1941 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=88041), 1941 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87881)
1942 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=88297)
1943 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89063)
1944 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89394)
1945 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89744), 1945 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89707)
1946 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89923), 1946 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89916)
1947 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90195), 1947 Negro League Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90109)
1948 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90391)
1949 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90572)
1950 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90811), 1950 VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90804)
1951 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=91009), 1951 Contributors VC (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=91013)

[Domenic]

I haven't voted yet, but my ballot is currently comprised of:

Wally Berger
Wes Ferrell
Left Gomez
Hank Greenberg
Stan Hack
Billy Herman
Bob Johnson
Rabbit Maranville
Mel Ott
Eppa Rixey

I'm considering:

Burleigh Grimes
Cecil Travis
Ernie Lombardi

[jalbright]

W. Ferrell
Greenberg
Grimes
Hack
Billy Herman
Maranville
Ott
S. Rice
Rixey
H. Wilson

[Cowtipper]

Berger
Cuyler
W. Ferrell
Greenberg
Grimes
Hack
Bi. Herman
Johnson
Lazzeri
Manush
Maranville
Ott
Rice
Rixey
Wilson

I dropped Combs, Bottomley and Klein to make room for some of the new guys.

Guys I'll vote for once I get room:

Chuck Klein
Jim Bottomley
Earle Combs
Paul Derringer
Lon Warneke
Lefty Gomez
Ernie Lombardi

[Ace Venom]

Wally Berger
Kiki Cuyler
Wes Ferrell
Lefty Gomez
Hank Greenberg
Burleigh Grimes
Stan Hack
Billy Herman
Bob Johnson
Chuck Klein
Rabbit Maranville
Mel Ott
Sam Rice
Lon Warneke
Hack Wilson

[Domenic]

I would also like to offer a brief refresher on one, Mr. Wally Berger:
Berger led all NL position players in Win Shares in 1931 and 1933.
Berger led all ML CF'ers in Win Shares in 1931, 1933, and 1934 and led all NL CF'ers in Win Shares in 1932.
Berger was an A- defender in CF.
By best three seasons: Berger 100, Hack Wilson 98, Edd Roush 96 (BBF HoF'er).
By best five seasons: Berger 152, Wilson 152, Earl Averill 143 (BBF HoF'er).
Berger played most of his career with the Braves - Braves Field was the worst hitter's park in the 1930s.
Berger was selected to the first four All-Star games.
Babe Ruth selected Berger as the best CF'er in baseball in 1933.
Berger holds the rookie record with 38 HR.
Berger hit 27 of the Braves 54 HR in 1933.
Berger played in the PCL in 1928 and 1929 (when it was nearly a second major league) - he hit .329 with 75 2B, 12 3B, and 60 HR in 337 games.

[Cowtipper]

Here are threads that were made specifically for some of the players on the ballot if you want to check them out...

Dick Bartell (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80244&highlight=bartell)
Wally Berger (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85048&highlight=berger)
Jim Bottomley (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=69367&highlight=bottomley)
Tommy Bridges (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=72275&highlight=bridges)
Earle Combs (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=34472&highlight=combs)
Kiki Cuyler (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=18608&highlight=cuyler)
Paul Derringer (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81980&highlight=derringer)
Wes Ferrell (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78505&highlight=ferrell)
Rick Ferrell (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87925&highlight=ferrell)
Lefty Gomez (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=49436&highlight=gomez)
Stan Hack (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=68710&highlight=hack)
Mel Harder (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81875&highlight=harder)
Rollie Hemsley (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90370&highlight=hemsley)
Babe Herman (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=69786&
highlight=herman)
Billy Herman (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=41652&highlight=herman)
Pinky Higgins (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83075&highlight=higgins)
Bob Johnson (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=69657&highlight=johnson)
Chuck Klein (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=33602&highlight=klein)
Tony Lazzeri (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=58584&highlight=lazzeri)
Heinie Manush (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77737&highlight=manush)
Buddy Myer (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80079&highlight=myer)
Eppa Rixey (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=50460&highlight=rixey)
Cecil Travis (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=40815&highlight=travis)
Hal Trosky (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85096&highlight=trosky)
Lloyd Waner (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79822&highlight=waner)
Lon Warneke (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=72043&highlight=warneke)

[SABR Matt]

Wally Berger
Wes Ferrell
Hank Greenberg
Lefty Gomez
Stan Hack
Billy Herman
Indian Bob Johnson
Rabbit Maranville
Mel Ott
Sam Rice
Eppa Rixey

[SavoyBG]

MY VOTES

Berger
W. Ferrell
Gomez
Greenberg
Grimes
Hack
Herman
Maranville
Ott
Rixey

BUBBLING UNDER
Cuyler
IB Johnson

I'm close on Cuyler but I think he's a shade under my line. On Johnson, he was well above average for a fairly short career, and his best season was in the depleted 1944 AL. I have to read up on why he didn't get to the majors until he was 28 years old. You'd think that Connie Mack could have used him on the 1931-1932 A's.

[SavoyBG]

Wally Berger
Wes Ferrell
Hank Greenberg
Lefty Gomez
Stan Hack
Billy Herman
Indian Bob Johnson
Rabbit Maranville
Mel Ott
Sam Rice
Eppa Rixey

We're in tune here Matt, except you went for Johnson and Rice, and I went for Grimes. I see you dropped Cuyler. I've got Cuyler slightly ahead of Johnson, as Johnson had his best year in 1944. I'm glad to see that Rice is NOT in BTF's Hall Of Merit.

[Domenic]

I'm glad to see people voting for Berger. :D

Grimes

Could you give me a quick argument for Grimes? He's on my borderline, and I'm leaning towards yes, but I could use some convincing. Or, at least, can you link me to some reasoning?

[SABR Matt]

MY VOTES

Berger
W. Ferrell
Gomez
Greenberg
Grimes
Hack
Herman
Maranville
Ott
Rixey

BUBBLING UNDER
Cuyler
IB Johnson

I'm close on Cuyler but I think he's a shade under my line. On Johnson, he was well above average for a fairly short career, and his best season was in the depleted 1944 AL. I have to read up on why he didn't get to the majors until he was 28 years old. You'd think that Connie Mack could have used him on the 1931-1932 A's.

He didn't get to the majors until 28 because the PCL was chronically under-scouted back then (which is why it was such a great league - bordering on near-MLB-quality for its time)...he toiled in obscurity out there and DOMINATED the PCL...the instant he arrived in the show he proved it was no fluke of a weaker league.

[SABR Matt]

We're in tune here Matt, except you went for Johnson and Rice, and I went for Grimes. I see you dropped Cuyler. I've got Cuyler slightly ahead of Johnson, as Johnson had his best year in 1944. I'm glad to see that Rice is NOT in BTF's Hall Of Merit.

In terms of real value produced, I have Cuyler ahead of Johnson too...but I give Johnson significant PCL credit for reasons explained above.

[jalbright]

Could you give me a quick argument for Grimes? He's on my borderline, and I'm leaning towards yes, but I could use some convincing. Or, at least, can you link me to some reasoning?

Burleigh Grimes

Perhaps his most impressive attribute is that he is tied with Pete Alexander for the most win shares by a pitcher in the 1920's. He's got a good bit to back up that positive as well: 38th in black ink among pitchers, 32nd in gray ink among pitchers, 32nd in career wins, 35th in career IP, and 33d in career complete games. When you think that the HOF has 60-70 MLB pitchers, he definitely belongs in that group. I should also add that all of his 3 most similar pitchers as determined by baseball-reference.com are in the HOF.

He also has a nice array of performances among the league leaders: six times in the top eight in ERA; 11 times in the top ten in wins (leading twice); seven times in the top eight in wins (leading once); and eight times in the top five in strikeouts (leading once).

I'll add this by AG2004:

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

No.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

By win shares, he led Brooklyn’s pitchers in 1918, 1920, 1921, and 1923, the Giants’ pitchers in 1927, and Pittsburgh’s pitchers in 1928 and 1929.

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

Although he never led major league pitchers in win shares, he was second among MLB pitchers in 1928, and led NL pitchers in win shares in 1921. Altogether, he was among the top four MLB pitchers in win shares three times, and fifth an additional time.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

Grimes had 32 win shares in 1920, when Brooklyn won the pennant by 7 games. He recorded 21 in 1924, finishing third among NL pitchers, as Brooklyn lost the race by 1.5 games. Grimes went 2-0 in the 1931 World Series, winning game seven and not giving up any runs before the ninth inning in either of his starts, but Pepper Martin or Bill Hallahan would probably have been named the WS MVP had the award existed then.

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

Yes; he was part of a rotation until his mid-30s, and finished his career at the age of 40.

6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

No.

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

By similarity scores: Red Faber, Red Ruffing, Ted Lyons, Tony Mullane, Gus Weyhing, Dennis Martinez, Eppa Rixey, Sam Jones, Vic Willis, Tommy John. Five are in Cooperstown, but only Lyons is in the BBFHOF.

Grimes recorded 25 win shares in the shortened 1918 season. I adjusted this to 30 win shares when considering the peak measures; the only affect this adjustment had was to increase the total for Grimes’ top three seasons from 91 to 92.

Career win shares, contemporary pitchers: Eppa Rixey 315, Red Faber 292, GRIMES 286, Wilbur Cooper 266. These aren’t BBFHOF members, but Grimes is ahead of Coveleski and Vance, who are in the BBFHOF.

Top three seasons, contemporary P: Dazzy Vance 94, Red Faber 93, GRIMES 92, Carl Mays 92, Stan Coveleski 90, Dolf Luque 89, Wilbur Cooper 85. Grimes is among the company of two BBFHOF members and several leading candidates.

Top five consecutive seasons: Wilbur Cooper 133, Hippo Vaughn 128, Urban Shocker 128, Dazzy Vance 124, GRIMES 122, Dolf Luque 121, Red Faber 118, Eppa Rixey 118, Red Ruffing 116. This isn’t quite BBFHOF territory, but Grimes is still ahead of Coveleski and Lyons.

Overall, the responses to this question don’t provide overwhelming evidence one way for the other.

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

His black ink total of 38 is 38th all-time, just two points below the average for pitchers in Cooperstown. His gray ink total of 213 places him at number 32 on the all-time list, and is above the average score of 185 for Cooperstown’s pitchers. Both are very good signs. However, his HOF Standards score of 38.0 is only 78th among pitchers, which isn’t a good sign.

Grimes is in Cooperstown. However, he is not in the Hall of Merit.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

The 1920s were a time of high offense. Also, many of Grimes’ Brooklyn teams were mediocre at best, affecting his won-loss record.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

No. Several pitchers outside the BBFHOF are more worthy of induction.

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

Although the Cy Young Award was not given in Grimes’ peak years, he finished third in the NL MVP vote in 1928 and fourth in 1929. He led all pitchers in the MVP voting in both of those seasons, so we could consider them two “Cy Young” seasons, even though the Cy Young Award would not be given out for several more decades.

Grimes had one season (1921) when he led NL pitchers in win shares. However, he had four seasons when he was second in win shares among NL pitchers. That’s five Cy-Young type seasons, which is a very good sign.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

The All-Star game came along at the very end of Grimes’ career. However, he was among the top three NL pitchers in win shares in six different seasons, and was tied for fifth in an additional season. Seven All-Star-type seasons is a good sign for a pitcher.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

At his best, yes. He had four such years in the span 1920-1924, but was too inconsistent otherwise.

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

Grimes was the last major league pitcher who was permitted to throw a spitball.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

Pittsburgh owner Barney Dreyfuss noted “that Grimes just fights with everyone, friend or foe,” explaining why he sent him to Brooklyn after the 1917 season. Grimes also had a reputation for being mean during ballgames.

CONCLUSION: Grimes’ ERA+ of 107 is very poor for a Hall of Famer. But 107 is an average, and Grimes had a tendency to mix very good seasons with very poor seasons. Grimes is among the top 40 in both ink marks, and had five seasons when he was among the NL’s top two pitchers in win shares. If he had more seasons like those five, or had been able to cluster them together into a distinct peak, I wouldn’t hesitate to put him in my BBFHOF ballot right now. As it is, he had enough top seasons to make it onto my queue, but the inconsistency means that he’s not going on my ballot just yet.

[SavoyBG]

Could you give me a quick argument for Grimes? He's on my borderline, and I'm leaning towards yes, but I could use some convincing. Or, at least, can you link me to some reasoning?


He compares pretty well with Ruffing, who just got in easily here in his second year on the ballot:

CAREER WIN SHARES
Ruffing - 322
Grimes - 286

BEST THREE SEASONS
Ruffing - 27, 25, 24
Grimes - 32, 30, 29

Ruffing had the better career value, but Grimes had a much better peak, even a couple of MVP level seasons.

[jalbright]

Burleigh Grimes

HOF Pitchers or serious HOF pitching candidates who pitched at least 2000 innings 1916-39 (Grimes went 1916-34--I didn't want to extend back into the deadball era as those pitchers were pitching in dramatically different circumstances).


Pitcher.... career best 3 5consec bl ink gr ink HOF stds
W Johnson 564 143 217 150 420 82
Alexander 477 127 180 126 339 77
Grove...... 391 108 167 108 316 62
Hubbell.... 305 102 153 51 252 51
Grimes..... 286 91 122 38 213 38
Rixey....... 315 76 118 10 175 35
Faber....... 292 93 118 22 161 37
Coveleski... 245 90 142 22 193 38
Pennock... 240 73 108 13 157 36
Vance..... 241 94 124 66 171 35
Ruffing.... 322 76 116 11 257 38
Lyons...... 312 79 110 32 180 30
Gomez..... 185 80 106 46 182 34
Hoyt....... 252 69 100 7 182 35
Haines..... 207 67 80 8 91 27
W Cooper 266 85 133 17 173 33
C Mays..... 256 92 140 23 172 41
Ferrell..... 233 95 129 25 170 22
Warneke... 220 86 125 17 170 34


There are 19 pitchers here, 15 of whom are in the Hall (the bottom 4 aren't, but I think I'd take any of them over the bottom 3 actual HOFers in this group in my view (Gomez, Haines, Hoyt). Grimes is solidly middle of the pack, certainly not with the top 4 (Johnson, Alexander, Grove, Hubbell), but doing pretty well against the remaining competition. The top 4 take him in all categories.

In career win shares, Grimes finishes 6th in this group; in his best three seasons, he's 9th; in his best five consecutive seasons, he's 11th; in black ink, he's 7th; in gray ink, he's 6th; and in HOF standards, he's tied for 6th. If you hold up that well against a group of HOF-caliber players, I think it's fair to say you belong.

[Ace Venom]

Now I can see how Rick Ferrell got into Cooperstown. I accidentally voted for the wrong Ferrell. Oh well. No harm done. I'll adjust the vote if it's a matter of being elected or not, which is highly unlikely based on the voting history.

[SABR Matt]

Now I can see how Rick Ferrell got into Cooperstown. I accidentally voted for the wrong Ferrell. Oh well. No harm done. I'll adjust the vote if it's a matter of being elected or not, which is highly unlikely based on the voting history.

LOL

Ace, you should really fix that vote now...some people may be influenced in how they vote based on the chatter in the comments about how a player is doing in the voting...and the tallies should be accurate anyway.

[leecemark]

I haven't voted yet, but my ballot is currently comprised of:

Wally Berger
Wes Ferrell
Left Gomez
Hank Greenberg
Stan Hack
Billy Herman
Bob Johnson
Rabbit Maranville
Mel Ott
Eppa Rixey

I'm considering:

Burleigh Grimes
Cecil Travis
Ernie Lombardi


--If you are voting for Gomez and Ferrell you really ought to consider Tommy Bridges. He has more IP and a higher ERA+ than either.

[dgarza]

Jim Bottomley
Kiki Cuyler
Lefty Gomez
Hank Greenberg
Stan Hack
Billy Herman
Bob Johnson
Chuck Klein
Ernie Lombardi
Heinie Manush
Rabbit Maranville
Mel Ott
Sam Rice
Eppa Rixey
Hack Wilson

1. Mel Ott
2. Hank Greenberg
3. Chuck Klein
4. Billy Herman
5. Hack Wilson
6. Ernie Lombardi
7. Lefty Gomez
8. Bob Johnson
9. Heinie Manush
10. Kiki Cuyler
11. Stan Hack
12. Sam Rice
13. Jim Bottomley
14. Eppa Rixey
15. Rabbit Maranville

[Ace Venom]

The statistical argument is starting to take away from the discussion of the actual players and the voting process involved in this project.

[SABR Matt]

Ace...you knew that argument was coming with all of the statistical tools being used in these debates.

As it pertains to Grimes, Win Shares appears to be the only uberstat metric that places Grimes in the "solid middle of the hall" category...WARP and PCA both see him as more of a bubble candidate.

As I said in the last vote, if he gets in, it's not a crime for me...I just don't feel the need to vote for him.

[Ace Venom]

Statistics as it applies to the players is fine for discussion, but it's not when you're arguing which statistical system is the best system just for the sake of doing it. It looks like there was a cleanup in this thread, so I appreciate that.

As far as Grimes goes, there's enough when it comes to counting stats and other metrics that helps push him over the top for me. I've got no problem voting for Grimes.

[PVNICK]

Bridges
Cuyler
Wes Ferrell
Greenberg
Grimes
Hack
Billy Herman - I vote for Myer so I can't pass on him.
Maranville
Myer
Ott
Rice

[mwiggins]

Bridges
W. Ferrell
Gomez
Greenberg
Hack
Billy Herman
Johnson
Maranville
Ott
Rice
Rixey
Travis

[NineWorldSeries]

I dropped Durocher (gave him too much credit for player/manager) and added Maranville in his final year of eligibility.

Bottomley
Cuyler
Derringer
Rick Ferrell
Gomez
Greenberg
Grimes
Billy Herman
Klein
Lombardi
Manush
Maranville
Ott
Rice
Wilson

[Ace Venom]

Here's who we have coming up for 1953:

Frankie Crosetti
Bill Dietrich
Lonny Frey
Don Gutteridge
Thornton Lee
Eddie Mayo
Frank McCormick
George McQuinn
Joe Medwick
Terry Moore
Fritz Ostermueller
Arky Vaughan
Rudy York

Only Vaughan and Medwick look appealing to me. I'll pass on the rest unless there are some very convincing arguments out there.

[SABR Matt]

Joe Medwick isn't a HOFer either. Vaughan will get my support (obviously), but my ballot will shrink considerably next year it would appear with at least 4 or 5 disappearing due to election and only 1 new face. I might throw my support to Grimes though I'm still not convinced.

Looks like the next ballot will be something like:

Ferrell, Gomez, Grimes, Johnson, Rice, and Vaughan.

[Ace Venom]

Given the move of the Boston Braves, I find it relevant to mention my primary team policy. The primary team is determined by stat majorities (G, PA, AB, IP, etc) and not seasons. This is mostly due to the fact that trades, injuries or playing part time could skew the number of seasons a player appears in a certain uniform. This was my reasoning when I determined that the Chicago Cubs were Jimmy Sheckard's primary team. Being on four NL pennant winning teams there obviously helped in making that decision.

This is also relevant to cities as well. Obviously if a player appeared on a team that played in different cities, the city name is determined by the majority stats in those cities. Because of this, it would be a while before you saw someone listed as a Milwaukee Brave.

[mwiggins]

Joe Medwick isn't a HOFer either. Vaughan will get my support (obviously), but my ballot will shrink considerably next year it would appear with at least 4 or 5 disappearing due to election and only 1 new face. I might throw my support to Grimes though I'm still not convinced.

Looks like the next ballot will be something like:

Ferrell, Gomez, Grimes, Johnson, Rice, and Vaughan.

How much difference do you show between Medwick and Johnson/Rice? How much does PCA discount his 1944 season, if any?

[Paul Wendt]

How many seasons dominating the PCL?

Averill 3, generously?
Berger 1?
Johnson ?

[SavoyBG]

Joe Medwick isn't a HOFer either. Vaughan will get my support (obviously), but my ballot will shrink considerably next year it would appear with at least 4 or 5 disappearing due to election and only 1 new face. I might throw my support to Grimes though I'm still not convinced.

Looks like the next ballot will be something like:

Ferrell, Gomez, Grimes, Johnson, Rice, and Vaughan.


I'm shocked, but pleased that you are thinking about Burleigh.

Medwick's peak looks pretty damn good to me, certainly better than Goslin, who I think you supported.

[SABR Matt]

Joe Medwick's career:
Yr Lg Off Def O-M D-M Wins
1937 NL 15.23 1.63 26.2 1.4 16.86
1936 NL 11.18 3.41 18.1 5.0 14.59
1935 NL 9.34 2.78 14.4 3.8 12.12
1939 NL 6.39 2.47 8.6 3.2 8.86
1934 NL 5.84 2.83 7.6 3.9 8.67
1938 NL 6.76 1.60 9.5 1.4 8.36
1941 NL 5.97 2.29 8.3 3.0 8.26
1940 NL 5.08 2.74 6.2 3.8 7.82
1933 NL 6.03 1.59 8.1 1.4 7.62
1944 NL 5.72 1.47 8.0 1.5 7.19
1942 NL 5.39 1.77 7.1 2.0 7.16
1943 NL 3.11 0.50 2.9 -0.2 3.61
1947 NL 1.69 0.72 2.3 1.1 2.41
1945 NL 1.22 0.83 0.4 0.9 2.05
1932 NL 1.48 0.17 2.3 -0.1 1.65
1946 NL 0.92 0.33 1.3 0.5 1.25

Three big seasons...followed by a whole bunch of mediocrity. Above average? Sure. Particularly noteworthy? Not really.

In left field, this career total of 180.6 marker points puts Medwick in 26th rank. And there's no war credit to give so...no room to go up.

Rice, BTW, has 208.2 marker points in right field...his ELP was substantially higher.

[SABR Matt]

How many seasons dominating the PCL?

Averill 3, generously?
Berger 1?
Johnson ?

Bob Johnson had at least three seasons of PCL domination...if not 4 or 5...anyone know the exact duration?

[mwiggins]

Bob Johnson had at least three seasons of PCL domination...if not 4 or 5...anyone know the exact duration?

1929 (joined mid-season) to 1932.

1929 (81 games): 5 HR/.254 BA/.394 SLG
1930: 21 HR/.265 BA/.453 SLG
1931: 22 HR/.337 BA/.562 SLG
1932: 29 HR/.330 BA/.572 SLG

[SavoyBG]

Joe Medwick's career:
Yr Lg Off Def O-M D-M Wins
1937 NL 15.23 1.63 26.2 1.4 16.86
1936 NL 11.18 3.41 18.1 5.0 14.59
1935 NL 9.34 2.78 14.4 3.8 12.12
1939 NL 6.39 2.47 8.6 3.2 8.86
1934 NL 5.84 2.83 7.6 3.9 8.67
1938 NL 6.76 1.60 9.5 1.4 8.36
1941 NL 5.97 2.29 8.3 3.0 8.26
1940 NL 5.08 2.74 6.2 3.8 7.82
1933 NL 6.03 1.59 8.1 1.4 7.62
1944 NL 5.72 1.47 8.0 1.5 7.19
1942 NL 5.39 1.77 7.1 2.0 7.16
1943 NL 3.11 0.50 2.9 -0.2 3.61
1947 NL 1.69 0.72 2.3 1.1 2.41
1945 NL 1.22 0.83 0.4 0.9 2.05
1932 NL 1.48 0.17 2.3 -0.1 1.65
1946 NL 0.92 0.33 1.3 0.5 1.25

Three big seasons...followed by a whole bunch of mediocrity. Above average? Sure. Particularly noteworthy? Not really.

In left field, this career total of 180.6 marker points puts Medwick in 26th rank. And there's no war credit to give so...no room to go up.

Rice, BTW, has 208.2 marker points in right field...his ELP was substantially higher.

"Marker points" is your own subjective view of what makes a hall of famer. Maybe I don't yet understand the PCA scale. Are you saying that a season over 8.00 is only mediocre? Those first two seasons that you say are mediocre (1939, 1934) he has 24 win shares, which is the most that Rice ever had in any season. Same thing with 1941 Medwick, 24 win shares.

Can you post Rice's card again ? If I recall he did not have any seasons over 10.00.

[SABR Matt]

1929 (joined mid-season) to 1932.

1929 (81 games): 5 HR/.254 BA/.394 SLG
1930: 21 HR/.265 BA/.453 SLG
1931: 22 HR/.337 BA/.562 SLG
1932: 29 HR/.330 BA/.572 SLG

Three full years and part of a fourth...that's about what I thought I was remembering from my Northwest Baseball monogram.

[SABR Matt]

"Marker points" is your own subjective view of what makes a hall of famer. Maybe I don't yet understand the PCA scale. Are you saying that a season over 8.00 is only mediocre? Those first two seasons that you say are mediocre (1939, 1934) he has 24 win shares, which is the most that Rice ever had in any season. Same thing with 1941 Medwick, 24 win shares.

Can you post Rice's card again ? If I recall he did not have any seasons over 10.00.

You recall wrongly:
Yr Lg Off Def O-M D-M Wins
1924 AL 6.37 4.96 8.2 7.7 11.33
1920 AL 6.80 4.43 9.3 6.3 11.23
1921 AL 6.41 4.30 8.8 6.3 10.71
1930 AL 6.22 4.19 8.2 6.5 10.41
1925 AL 6.32 3.84 8.2 5.5 10.16
1923 AL 7.61 2.32 11.0 2.7 9.93
1929 AL 6.75 2.46 9.1 3.0 9.21
1917 AL 8.06 0.91 12.0 -0.3 8.97
1926 AL 6.74 2.19 9.0 2.2 8.93
1922 AL 6.41 2.51 8.5 2.4 8.92
1919 AL 6.09 2.29 8.3 2.7 8.38
1927 AL 4.77 1.76 5.4 1.7 6.53
1928 AL 5.55 0.69 6.8 -0.6 6.24
1931 AL 3.75 2.01 4.6 2.7 5.76
1932 AL 3.42 1.12 4.8 1.5 4.54
1916 AL 1.92 0.92 2.5 1.3 3.17
1934 AL 1.85 0.34 1.4 -0.3 2.19
1933 AL 0.58 0.43 0.6 0.7 1.01

Same Rice had 6 seasons above or essentially at 10 wins. The defense is what does it for him since his bat was not particularly flamboyant. The Marker score is subjective in that I chose what range of performances should be emphasized more (average getting an exchange rate of 1, no HOF value for players producing at half the average win rate, exchange rate approaching 2 as you get further from average)...but other than setting the initial rule, it's still entirely objective. I don't find anything particularly controversial about the scale I chose either.

By the way, to give you an idea of what an average season looks like, the average hitter produces 4.5 offensive wins and in the corner outfield spots the average fielder is good for 1.7 or 1.8 defensive wins. 8-win seasons are above average but hardly the stuff of HOF legends unless those HOFers happen to have produced at that 8-win clip for a very long time.

Medwick was, outside of three big years, not that far above the average line for his position...Sam Rice was similarly not all that far above the average line, but he stayed above the average line a lot longer than Medwick. The difference between PCA and WS here when it comes to Rice is the fielding evaluation. Once again, PCA sees significantly more overall fielding value, and averaged over the entire span of baseball history, more value at the non-skill positions (relative to the skill positions) on defense than Win Shares sees. The gap between corner outfielders and middle infielders is large, but not as large as the win shares gap.

[AstrosFan]

W Ferrell
Greenberg
Grimes
Hack
Herman
Ott
Rixey

[mwiggins]

Three full years and part of a fourth...that's about what I thought I was remembering from my Northwest Baseball monogram.

I don't know that I'd call that 3 dominating seasons, though. Not even sure how dominating his last two were.

FWIT, Ernie Lombardi from 1928-1930 had what look like better seasons than Johnson with Oakland.

1928: 8 HR, .377 BA, .557 SLG
1929: 24 HR, .366 BA, .587 SLG
1930: 22 HR, .370 BA, .594 SLG

I don't know enough about PCL history to know how hitter-friendly Portland and Oakland's parks were.

[Ace Venom]

I dropped Durocher (gave him too much credit for player/manager) and added Maranville in his final year of eligibility.

Durocher is eventually going to make his way onto the contributor's ballot. I overlooked some contributors when I was preparing the 1951 ballot because I was in a hurry to take it over. I overlooked Bill McKechnie on the ballot, but he'll be there in 1956.

[Paul Wendt]

Quoting myself,
How many seasons dominating the PCL?

Averill 3, generously?
Berger 1?
Johnson ?
I don't know anything about the PCL ballparks. The raw statistics suggest that Matt is more generous to Bob Johnson than I am to Averill, and that an equally generous count for Berger is two.

Earl Averill, San Francisco
games bat slug
188 .348 .539 1926
183 .324 .481 1927
189 .354 .594 1928

Wally Berger, Los Angeles
games bat slug
_14 .365 .571 1927
138 .327 .529 1928
199 .335 .565 1929

Source: Baseball-Reference brings you the SABR minor leagues database

[KCGHOST]

I must have been in a hurry when I voted. I missed Billy Herman and Stan Hack.

[Ace Venom]

I must have been in a hurry when I voted. I missed Billy Herman and Stan Hack.

If it's the difference between being elected and not being elected, I'll adjust the necessary votes by hand.

[Jsquared83]

Gomez
Greenberg
Grimes
Billy Herman
Lombardi
Manush
Maranville
Ott
Rice

[josh24]

Hank Greenberg
Mel Ott
Chuck Klein
Heinie Manush
Lefty Gomez
Jim Bottomley
Kiki Cuyler
Burleigh Grimes
Stan Hack
Billy Herman
Tony Lazzeri
Rabbit Maranville
Sam Rice
Eppa Rixey
Hack Wilson

[RyanExpress30]

1 Ott
2 Greenberg
3 Johnson
4 Bottomley
5 Cuyler
6 Manush
7 Rice
8 Berger
9 Lazzeri
10 Wilson
11 Babe Herman
12 Klein
13 Combs
14 Grimes
15 Rixey

[AG2004]

Medwick was, outside of three big years, not that far above the average line for his position...Sam Rice was similarly not all that far above the average line, but he stayed above the average line a lot longer than Medwick. The difference between PCA and WS here when it comes to Rice is the fielding evaluation. Once again, PCA sees significantly more overall fielding value, and averaged over the entire span of baseball history, more value at the non-skill positions (relative to the skill positions) on defense than Win Shares sees. The gap between corner outfielders and middle infielders is large, but not as large as the win shares gap.

PCA credits Sam Rice with 1.86 defensive wins per 100 games, and Rabbit Maranville with 2.06 defensive wins per 100 games. That's not a big gap.

Rice has 52.0 marker points on defense; Maranville, 61.6. That comes out to 2.29 defensive marker points per 100 games for Rice, and 2.31 defensive marker points for Maranville.

How could the defense of a corner outfielder be almost as valuable as that of Rabbit Maranville, widely considered one of the top defensive shortstops of all time?

I believe that PCA is giving Rice far too much credit for his defensive play. Defensive analysis can be misleading, but I don't recall anybody claiming that Rice's fielding was anywhere close to Maranville's.

---

WS gives Medwick credit for 9 All-Star-type seasons; Rice, credit for 11 such seasons. I'm not counting 1918 for Rice, but he was right on the line for 1919, so there is room for doubt about the wartime year. However, WS gives Medwick credit for 3 MVP-candidate-type seasons, and Rice never came close to having even one.

Something about the offensive numbers doesn't make sense. Rice's single-season high in OPS+ was 123; Medwick exceeded that 9 times. According to PCA, Rice exceeded 7.0 offensive wins twice, but Medwick exceeded 7.0 just three times. Furthermore, according to that system, Medwick had only six seasons with more than 6.0 offensive wins. Medwick didn't have many stolen bases. However, given Rice's CS numbers, his stolen bases weren't contributing that many wins. If you're not giving Rice excessive credit for the stolen bases, there's something else wrong with the PCA system, and I don't know what it is.

[SavoyBG]

PCA credits Sam Rice with 1.86 defensive wins per 100 games, and Rabbit Maranville with 2.06 defensive wins per 100 games. That's not a big gap.

Rice has 52.0 marker points on defense; Maranville, 61.6. That comes out to 2.29 defensive marker points per 100 games for Rice, and 2.31 defensive marker points for Maranville.

How could the defense of a corner outfielder be almost as valuable as that of Rabbit Maranville, widely considered one of the top defensive shortstops of all time?

I believe that PCA is giving Rice far too much credit for his defensive play. Defensive analysis can be misleading, but I don't recall anybody claiming that Rice's fielding was anywhere close to Maranville's.

---

WS gives Medwick credit for 9 All-Star-type seasons; Rice, credit for 11 such seasons. I'm not counting 1918 for Rice, but he was right on the line for 1919, so there is room for doubt about the wartime year. However, WS gives Medwick credit for 3 MVP-candidate-type seasons, and Rice never came close to having even one.

Something about the offensive numbers doesn't make sense. Rice's single-season high in OPS+ was 123; Medwick exceeded that 9 times. According to PCA, Rice exceeded 7.0 offensive wins twice, but Medwick exceeded 7.0 just three times. Furthermore, according to that system, Medwick had only six seasons with more than 6.0 offensive wins. Medwick didn't have many stolen bases. However, given Rice's CS numbers, his stolen bases weren't contributing that many wins. If you're not giving Rice excessive credit for the stolen bases, there's something else wrong with the PCA system, and I don't know what it is.

This Rice/Medwick thing also had me wondering about PCA. Now that you point out the defensive numbers for Rice, a RFer, being so close to one of the greatest fielding shortstops, I think you've hit on part of the problem. No way any corner outfielder could possibly have been anywhere near as valuable as Maranville was defensively. Despite Matt's insistence that his fielding numbers are a vast improvement over win shares fielding, the win shares fielding numbers on these two players seem much more in line to me.


WIN SHARES CAREER FIELDING
Maranville - 142
Rice - 56

Medwick has 44 fielding win shares. I can buy that Rice was 27% more valuable defensively than Medwick, but I can't buy what PCA says, that Maranville was only 18% more valuble defensively than Rice.

Sorry Matt, but I can't buy that a RFer who also played 4 seasons worth of CF also and had a career OPS+ of 113 is a better HOF candidate than a LFer with a career OPS+ of 133.....even in 400+ more games. Unless Rice was Max Carey in the field and on the bases, he's just not that great of a player.

[SABR Matt]

I've been over this a number of times...I don't want to derail this thread explaining why the outfield matters a great deal more than Win Shares claims...but the play by play metrics back me up. The difference between the worst shortstop and the best shortstop is not very much greater than the difference between the worst corner outfielder and the best in terms of plays made relative to average for the position. A larger percentage of a shortstop's plays are routine than the plays made by an outfielder...that still leaves shortstops making more total non-routine plays, but the gap is nowhere near as large as the intrinsic defensive weights Bill James extracted from his colon.

[SavoyBG]

I've been over this a number of times...I don't want to derail this thread explaining why the outfield matters a great deal more than Win Shares claims...but the play by play metrics back me up. The difference between the worst shortstop and the best shortstop is not very much greater than the difference between the worst corner outfielder and the best in terms of plays made relative to average for the position. A larger percentage of a shortstop's plays are routine than the plays made by an outfielder...that still leaves shortstops making more total non-routine plays, but the gap is nowhere near as large as the intrinsic defensive weights Bill James extracted from his colon.

The part in red is only because virtualy every team puts its best defensive player at SS. You can't establish defensive value by looking only at the difference between the best and worst defensive player at the most important defensive position. That was one of the main problems with linear weights fielding from Thorn and Palmer. They were saying that the 2rd best RFer in the league was more valuable defensively than the 4th best shortstop (in an 8 team league), which is just not true.

You can't make Rice into some superstar fielder merely because some other team's manager decided to get a great bat into his lineup with a terrible fielder in RF, like Babe Herman.

Just because no manager would ever be dumb enough to play a Babe Herman type at SS does not mean that the players who do play SS are not much more valuable defensively than any RFer.

I can see the greatest RFer of all time perhaps being as valuable as a real bad SS, but for you to tell us that Sam Rice is almost as valuable defensively as perhaps the greatest defenmsive SS in history is just not believable.

[SavoyBG]

Not really...Medwick would drop too.

Not near as much. Medwick's defensive claim points cannot be close to Rice, unless you want to tell us that he was 75% as valuble as Maranville as a fielder?

[Captain Cold Nose]

If you would like me to create another thread, I will. But the last few posts have very, very little to do with this thread. Please discuss the candidates on this ballot or start posting in the outfield defense thread I moved all that stuff too awhile back.
Or Twitter each other or something. This is nothing but a game of one upmanship that isn't fair to subject the rest of the posters interested in this project to, interesting or not.

[DoubleX]

I don't have win shares or my other lists in front of me, but is Tony Lazzeri really that different from Larry Doyle?

[Domenic]

I don't have win shares or my other lists in front of me, but is Tony Lazzeri really that different from Larry Doyle?

Larry Doyle had 289 win shares (which I believe isn't adjusted for a 154-game schedule, though I could be wrong). Tony Lazzeri had 252. I don't have defensive numbers in front of my, but neither Doyle nor Lazzeri are credited with being good defensive players - if memory serves, both were actually mediocre (at best).

Edit: AG2004's Keltner List credits Doyle with a C. I think Lazzeri may've been a bit worse.

[mwiggins]

I don't have win shares or my other lists in front of me, but is Tony Lazzeri really that different from Larry Doyle?

Not really. Doyle had the advantage of standing out more in a weaker (in terms of superstars, at least) league. Doyle had the rep as one of the very best, if not the best, position player in the 1910's NL - while there was clearly a large gap between Lazzeri and the best position players in his league.

And he came first, before guys like Collins, Hornsby, Gehringer, and Frisch were elected.

I believe Win Shares shows Doyle with the advantage (though James ranked Lazzeri one spot ahead of Doyle), while WARP has Lazzeri with a large advantage (mostly because of defense). BP shows Doyle to be a well below average fielder, in terms of total career, while the rate Lazzeri a shade above average.

[DoubleX]

Like I said, I don't have my measurements in front of me, but I get the feeling that the huge disparity in the support that elected Doyle and the meager support Lazzeri now receives, might have something do with preconceived notions based on the real Hall of Fame. By this I mean there's a sentiment that Lazzeri is a Cooperstown mistake that biases voters against him, whereas there's a sentiment that Doyle is a more overlooked player, thus creating more sympathy for him.

[Brad Harris]

Like I said, I don't have my measurements in front of me, but I get the feeling that the huge disparity in the support that elected Doyle and the meager support Lazzeri now receives, might have something do with preconceived notions based on the real Hall of Fame. By this I mean there's a sentiment that Lazzeri is a Cooperstown mistake that biases voters against him, whereas there's a sentiment that Doyle is a more overlooked player, thus creating more sympathy for him.
Bingo. Not that there isn't a difference between the two, but it's certainly not a gaping chasm between them.

[Domenic]

Like I said, I don't have my measurements in front of me, but I get the feeling that the huge disparity in the support that elected Doyle and the meager support Lazzeri now receives, might have something do with preconceived notions based on the real Hall of Fame. By this I mean there's a sentiment that Lazzeri is a Cooperstown mistake that biases voters against him, whereas there's a sentiment that Doyle is a more overlooked player, thus creating more sympathy for him.

That wouldn't surprise me.

To be fair, though, a perfunctory glance leans in favor of Doyle - he has fair advantages in win shares and OPS+ and, in the case of more obscure players, I'm not sure that most voters go much more in-depth than that.

What interests me most is the gap in WARP3 - Lazzeri sits at 57.9, Doyle at 41.7. I rarely see a large gap in win shares in favor of one player, and a large gap in WARP3 in favor of the other.

[bambambaseball]

Like I said, I don't have my measurements in front of me, but I get the feeling that the huge disparity in the support that elected Doyle and the meager support Lazzeri now receives, might have something do with preconceived notions based on the real Hall of Fame. By this I mean there's a sentiment that Lazzeri is a Cooperstown mistake that biases voters against him, whereas there's a sentiment that Doyle is a more overlooked player, thus creating more sympathy for him.

I think the main reason Lazzeri doesnt get suport is the fact that he was a second tier star on his team. I dont think its fair to dismiss him like that, but I think thats what a lot of folks do.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Thanks for ignoring me guys.

Collateral damage, bam bam, except where you address DoubleX's post.

[Ace Venom]

I want to add something here. Please heed the moderator warnings. I would rather this thread and future threads not get derailed by discussions that contribute little to the project. If you want to discuss with uberstat you like to use and why, there is a forum for that. Now if you post something statistics related that can advance the discussion that is relevant to the players on the ballot or players that have already been elected (or even future players for that matter if the discussion is relevant), then that's not a problem.

As far as Lazzeri goes, I plan on picking him back up in the 1953 election. We've had a couple of strong classes come in recently and I aim to come back to some of the marginal players I've been supporting. I want to vote for Earle Combs in the next round, so if someone who supports Combs wants to save his candidacy, don't feel bad about doing so. Remember that I respect everyone's voting decisions and that it is important for everyone else participating in this project to do the same. Now if you want to present an argument as to why a person should be voting for a certain candidate and not another, that is relevant to this project and there is nothing wrong with discussing that.

[SavoyBG]

I want to add something here. Please heed the moderator warnings. I would rather this thread and future threads not get derailed by discussions that contribute little to the project. If you want to discuss with uberstat you like to use and why, there is a forum for that. Now if you post something statistics related that can advance the discussion that is relevant to the players on the ballot or players that have already been elected (or even future players for that matter if the discussion is relevant), then that's not a problem.

As far as Lazzeri goes, I plan on picking him back up in the 1953 election. We've had a couple of strong classes come in recently and I aim to come back to some of the marginal players I've been supporting. I want to vote for Earle Combs in the next round, so if someone who supports Combs wants to save his candidacy, don't feel bad about doing so. Remember that I respect everyone's voting decisions and that it is important for everyone else participating in this project to do the same. Now if you want to present an argument as to why a person should be voting for a certain candidate and not another, that is relevant to this project and there is nothing wrong with discussing that.


Our current debate stems out of Medwick. Matt stated that Medwick was not a HOFer. If you don't want us to discuss Medwick in this thread, then don't post the list of next year's candidates. Once you post that list it seems to me that you are opening the door for those new candidates to be discussed, no?

When guys debate the candidates the points made sometimes branch out to other examples. I don't see why that's such a problem here. It's not like we're running out of bandwith, or like anybody else is posting anything of interest in this thread.

Matt and I are learning things from each other. He's got me voting for Rixey this year, and I'm realizing that OF defense nowadays is more important than I thought. I've got Matt considering Grimes and voting for Connolly on the VC ballot. I don't take any of this personally, and I don't think Matt does either. Just two passionate fans in a fun debate with a few wisecracks here and there. I don't see why this is a problem.

[bambambaseball]

Our current debate stems out of Medwick. Matt stated that Medwick was not a HOFer. If you don't want us to discuss Medwick in this thread, then don't post the list of next year's candidates. Once you post that list it seems to me that you are opening the door for those new candidates to be discussed, no?

You two were going back and forth about Ross Barnes and John Deer. And talking about 19th century league quality. Why are you lieing?

[Ace Venom]

I was mostly referring to the old discussions that focused on statistical comparisons that had no mention of players. I'm a busy graduate student and we're all grown men who have things going on outside this site. Try to keep the topics relevant to the project itself. That's all I'm asking.

[SABR Matt]

You people do realize that the argument I was having with Savoy was DIRECTLY relevant to Sam Rice's hall of fame candidacy in THIS election and in the future, right? Evidently not, but the WTF-ever.

[Captain Cold Nose]

You two were going back and forth about Ross Barnes and John Deer. Why are you lieing?

Please don't add fuel to the fire.

Medwick vs. Rice did come up, but the majority of dicussion had to do with outfield defense. Anyone could have just as easily have been named. It stopped being about the candidates fairly soon.

I am glad there is mutual respect going on, and you're learning from each other, but those posts are really distracting to those of us not involved and the content far overshadows the intent of this project. No problems talking about the candidates, but there seems to be some competition going on that really psushes all else aside here. It's great for you guys, but what about us?

[Ace Venom]

Nothing to say here. Just please don't read anything into our posts that wasn't stated.

[SavoyBG]

Please don't add fuel to the fire.

Medwick vs. Rice did come up, but the majority of dicussion had to do with outfield defense.

Yes, because Matt's radical evaluation of the value of Rice's outfield defense is the main reason why Matt sees him as being a hall of famer. I agree with Matt too. If Rice's OF defense was really 80% as valuable as Maranville's defense at SS was, then Rice should be a hall of famer.

What I don't agree with is that Matt is evaluating that defensive value correctly. Even he thinks he may not be. This is interesting stuff. It's certainly more interesting than "black ink" numbers.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Yes, because Matt's radical evaluation of the value of Rice's outfield defense is the main reason why Matt sees him as being a hall of famer. I agree with Matt too. If Rice's OF defense was really 80% as valuable as Maranville's defense at SS was, then Rice should be a hall of famer.

What I don't agree with is that Matt is evaluating that defensive value correctly. Even he thinks he may not be. This is interesting stuff. It's certainly more interesting than "black ink" numbers.

Fine. Just bring it home a little more. There's no need to discuss Rob Deer, ever. And while you may not be doing it intentionally, it seems like it's just a spitting battle over methodology between the two of you, lightly tied to Rice and Medwick.

This doesn't belong on the public boards anymore. Sorry, Ace. Back to the thread.

[SavoyBG]

There's no need to discuss Rob Deer, ever.

On the contrary. He'll be on the ballot here some time next year, whenever we get to 2001.

[DoubleX]

As far as Lazzeri goes, I plan on picking him back up in the 1953 election. We've had a couple of strong classes come in recently and I aim to come back to some of the marginal players I've been supporting. I want to vote for Earle Combs in the next round, so if someone who supports Combs wants to save his candidacy, don't feel bad about doing so. Remember that I respect everyone's voting decisions and that it is important for everyone else participating in this project to do the same. Now if you want to present an argument as to why a person should be voting for a certain candidate and not another, that is relevant to this project and there is nothing wrong with discussing that.

I think Combs is another who probably suffers from a preconceived bias. I don't think Combs is quite as a good a candidate as Lazzeri and I'm not voting for Combs, but I do think there is a tendency to underrate him because we're so used to pointing out why others should be in Cooperstown over him.

In this project, I believe the players who face the toughest climb are those who are in Cooperstown, towards the lower end, but have decent cases and don't stand out as egregious. On the current ballot, I would point to guys like Sam Rice, Eppa Rixey, Rabbit Maranville, Lefty Gomez, Chuck Klein, Ernie Lombardi, Kiki Cuyler and Tony Lazzeri (of this group, I'd actually like to see some discussion about Lombardi - he played in a strong era for catchers, but was really a terrific hitting catcher).

On the whole though, I think we've done a pretty good job. Our gray area is probably larger than Cooperstown's, but it's more clearly defined and consistent. By this I mean we don't really have many, if any electees, that make you wonder how they got in while X number of seemingly better qualified players aren't, which is one of the problems with Cooperstown.

[SavoyBG]

In this project, I believe the players who face the toughest climb are those who are in Cooperstown, towards the lower end, but have decent cases and don't stand out as egregious. On the current ballot, I would point to guys like Sam Rice, Eppa Rixey, Rabbit Maranville, Lefty Gomez, Chuck Klein, Ernie Lombardi, Kiki Cuyler and Tony Lazzeri (of this group, I'd actually like to see some discussion about Lombardi - he played in a strong era for catchers, but was really a terrific hitting catcher).



Lombardi? He'd be the worst induction ever here if he gets in.

218 win shares with just one season of 20 or more win shares.

Matt, what does Lombardi look like in PCA?

Too bad that Maranville is one vote short right now (20 for 28). There probably won't even be 4 more voters, but he would need to be on the next 4 ballots to get in now.

[SABR Matt]

Please don't add fuel to the fire.

Medwick vs. Rice did come up, but the majority of dicussion had to do with outfield defense. Anyone could have just as easily have been named. It stopped being about the candidates fairly soon.

I am glad there is mutual respect going on, and you're learning from each other, but those posts are really distracting to those of us not involved and the content far overshadows the intent of this project. No problems talking about the candidates, but there seems to be some competition going on that really psushes all else aside here. It's great for you guys, but what about us?

It's not "competition"...and we ended up talking about Rob Deer and Ross Barnes as a consequence of a very central point to the question of whether it's better to normalize your statistics to a neutral context and put everyone on the same playing field or to rate performance only based on what actually happened when voting on the hall of fame...the way you answer that question determines whether you prefer to look at things like normalized PCA, which gives the outfielders a lot of credit for their defensive performance or whether you prefer to use Win Shares for defense...which does not. And that is entirely relevant to the decision of whether Sam Rice is a hall of famer with better credentials than Joe Medwick or even a hall of famer at all.

[SABR Matt]

Lombardi? He'd be the worst induction ever here if he gets in.

218 win shares with just one season of 20 or more win shares.

Matt, what does Lombardi look like in PCA?

Too bad that Maranville is one vote short right now (20 for 28). There probably won't even be 4 more voters, but he would need to be on the next 4 ballots to get in now.

Lombardi is not a HOFer by PCA...he's in the same neighborhood as guys like Jason Kendall...which tells me all I need to know about his HOF cred.

[SavoyBG]

Lombardi is not a HOFer by PCA...he's in the same neighborhood as guys like Jason Kendall...which tells me all I need to know about his HOF cred.


The guy was an excellent hitter for a catcher, but I suspect he was horrendous in the field, even worse on the bases, did not play all that much in most seasons. etc.....

Schang is a better candidate.

[SABR Matt]

Lombardi's PCA card:
Yr Lg Off Def O-M D-M Wins
1938 NL 6.61 1.19 9.9 1.0 7.80
1945 NL 4.27 0.92 5.9 0.7 5.19
1936 NL 4.81 0.37 7.0 -0.3 5.18
1940 NL 4.37 0.55 6.1 0.0 4.92
1937 NL 4.39 0.44 6.4 0.0 4.83
1942 NL 4.60 0.10 7.0 -0.6 4.70
1935 NL 3.89 0.67 5.6 0.5 4.56
1939 NL 3.77 0.61 4.4 -0.1 4.38
1932 NL 3.63 0.65 4.4 0.1 4.28
1934 NL 2.52 1.34 2.3 1.5 3.86
1943 NL 2.71 0.40 3.4 0.0 3.11
1946 NL 2.25 0.50 2.8 0.3 2.75
1941 NL 2.58 0.15 2.4 -1.0 2.73
1933 NL 1.33 0.97 0.3 1.0 2.30
1931 NL 1.49 0.38 1.7 0.2 1.87

Even with my rather generous 30% playing time prorated bonus for all catchers, Lombardi doesn't come anywhere close to being a hall of famer. Even by catching standards he didn't play enough to produce wins offensively at a high rate and his defense was DREADFUL.

[mwiggins]

Even with my rather generous 30% playing time prorated bonus for all catchers, Lombardi doesn't come anywhere close to being a hall of famer. Even by catching standards he didn't play enough to produce wins offensively at a high rate and his defense was DREADFUL.

How close would some credit for his big years in the PCL get him? Does he fall short of guys who got a moderate level support in this project like Schang and Schalk?

[SABR Matt]

Where can I get PCL data?

I do not know how long Lombardi played out there.

I have Schang as a very solid HOFer...roughly in the same ballpark as Lance Parrish (there for his superior defense) and Roger Bresnahan (there primarily for his bat)...both Schang and Bresnahan rate as horrid defensive catchers with great offense for the position.

Schalk is a catcher that PCA may be whiffing on as far as defense...the problem I have is that I don't have stolen base allowed data yet for that time period and teams stopped running on Schalk so we don't get to see too many assists. When the daily summary project gets completed (should be soon), I'll have stolen base data and I can make some conclusive findings as to whether Schalk was a fantastic fielder as his reputation suggests or whether he may have been overrated. I would tend to think the true is somewhere in between. He certainly wasn't a good enough hitter to get to the HOF without having been an elite fielder. So I'm on the border with Schalk. Depending on how long Mr. Lombardi played the PCL, he might be in the same neighborhood (borderline guys who I vote no to).

[mwiggins]

Where can I get PCL data?

I do not know how long Lombardi played out there.

I have Schang as a very solid HOFer...roughly in the same ballpark as Lance Parrish (there for his superior defense) and Roger Bresnahan (there primarily for his bat)...both Schang and Bresnahan rate as horrid defensive catchers with great offense for the position.

Schalk is a catcher that PCA may be whiffing on as far as defense...the problem I have is that I don't have stolen base allowed data yet for that time period and teams stopped running on Schalk so we don't get to see too many assists. When the daily summary project gets completed (should be soon), I'll have stolen base data and I can make some conclusive findings as to whether Schalk was a fantastic fielder as his reputation suggests or whether he may have been overrated. I would tend to think the true is somewhere in between. He certainly wasn't a good enough hitter to get to the HOF without having been an elite fielder. So I'm on the border with Schalk. Depending on how long Mr. Lombardi played the PCL, he might be in the same neighborhood (borderline guys who I vote no to).


http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=lombar001ern

He played from 1928-1930, with a few games in 1927. He was probably the 2nd best hitter on Oakland, after Buzz Arlett in all three years.

[Ace Venom]

Rabbit Maranville and Eppa Rixey failed to meet the 75% requirement in their final year of eligibility and thus will no longer appear on the ballot. Holdovers Harlond Clift, Leo Durocher and Pinky Higgins did not meet the required two votes needed to remain on the ballot and will also no longer appear on the ballot. Burleigh Grimes, Sam Rice and Hack Wilson will enter their final year of eligibility on the 1953 ballot.

Now I can see how Rick Ferrell got into Cooperstown. I accidentally voted for the wrong Ferrell. Oh well. No harm done. I'll adjust the vote if it's a matter of being elected or not, which is highly unlikely based on the voting history.

I must have been in a hurry when I voted. I missed Billy Herman and Stan Hack.

I said I would adjust votes if it was a matter of being elected or not. In the case of Stan Hack and Billy Herman, they were. Because of this, I am adjusting the vote tallies by hand. I cannot modify the pole results myself, so these modified tallies are the official results.

Wes Ferrell: 16 Votes (+1) (51.61%)
Rick Ferrell: 3 Votes (-1) (9.68%)
Stan Hack: 24 Votes (+1) (77.42%)
Billy Herman: 24 Votes (+1) (77.42%)

Thus, Wes Ferrell slides to over 50% of the vote and Stan Hack and Billy Herman slide over the 75% requirement needed for election. In addition, Hank Greenberg with 93.55% of the vote and Mel Ott with 100% of the vote qualify for the Progressive Hall of Fame. With the results from the Negro League Players VC Ballot, our class of 1952 is:

Cool Papa Bell
Martin Dihigo
Hank Greenberg
Stan Hack
Billy Herman
Buck Leonard
Dick Lundy
Biz Mackey
Mel Ott
Mule Suttles
Willie Wells
Jud Wilson

[Paul Wendt]

Where can I get PCL data?

I do not know how long Lombardi played out there.

For Averill and Berger, I selected "Minors" from the banner at the top of their pages at baseball-reference.
quote horizontal banner:
* Wally Berger Player Page
* >>
* Batting
* Fielding
* Minors
* Bullpen
* Oracle

[bambambaseball]

Rabbit Maranville missed by 2 lousy votes! :banghead::banghead::banghead::ughh:faint:

[Cowtipper]

Rabbit Maranville missed by 2 lousy votes! :banghead::banghead::banghead::ughh:faint:

Fear not, we'll get him in in the VC.