HOF Mistakes Round 22

[AstrosFan]

We all have our own definition of what makes a Hall of Famer. And many of us are simply appalled at what we see as terrible selections. I would like to start voting on the mistakes of the Hall of Fame.


Please Read These Rules Before Making Your Selections:


1. This is players only, which means players are to be judged on their playing career first. A player may receive a boost from a voter for other activities (managing, scouting, etc.), but those are only secondary considerations. But of course, do not judge a player solely by his numbers.

2. There are now 229 players in the Hall. I plan on putting a ballot of 25 each round, plus a none of the above option. You may vote for 0-15 players. If you think a player is close, but doesn't belong, and you have room on your ballot, check him as a mistake. A player needs to get 60+% of the vote to be dubbed a mistake. Since there will be much disagreement on who is a mistake, there is no need to limit yourself to the Rube Marquards and George Kellys of the Hall. Again, DO NOT JUST VOTE FOR THE BAD PICKS. VOTE FOR ANYONE YOU PERSONALLY WOULD NOT ELECT TO THE HALL.

3. Please do not be shy. In participating in this project, no one is necessarily advocating the removal of anyone from the Hall. It is just a way to see who we would identify as mistakes made by the various election committees.

4. All players are eligible. Do your best when it comes to players you may have a hard time judging, like Negro Leaguers and 19th century players. You don't have to read an encyclopedia, but at least some research should help.

5. If a player receives less than 5% of the vote as a mistake, he becomes permanently ineligible. No one wants to belabor the point that Willie Mays is not a Hall of Fame mistake.

6. A player must have more than one vote, must have crossed the 20% threshold by his fourth try, and the 50% threshold by his 10th try, else he is dropped, unless he has been gaining noticeable momentum. What constitutes noticeable will be up to me, though I intend to do my best to define it in a way that will appease as many as I can. Think Jim Rice or Bert Blyleven in the real HOF voting.

7. At some point, we will reach a place where we just aren't going to identify any more mistakes. At that point, the project will shut down, and I will list the players alphabetically, and include some statistics for everyone's benefit.

8. Please be careful when voting. I do not have the power to edit ballots, and I do not wish to bother the mods constantly to ask them if they can change things. Because of this, ballots will not be changed, except in the case of honest mistakes. Please contact a mod about this if it happens, but please be very careful when voting, so the moderators do not have to be bothered more than necessary.

9. Please be respectful of other people's choices. Disagreement is natural, but calling those with a different viewpoint narrowminded, ignorant, etc. is unnecessary, and more likely than not untrue.

10. This is probably obvious, but the players are listed alphabetically.

11. Please post your ballot in the thread.

12. Voting is open for one week.

Have fun.


Round 1 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85732)

Round 2 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85918)

Round 3 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86180)

Round 4 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86423)

Round 5 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86826)

Round 6 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87111)

Round 7 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87330)

Round 8 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87606)

Round 9 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87839)

Round 10 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=88081)

Round 11 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=88343)

Round 12 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=88576)

Round 13 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=88817)

Round 14 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89069)

Round 15 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89333)

Round 16 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89769)

Round 17 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89961)

Round 18 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90163)

Round 19 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90357)

Round 20 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90533)

Round 21 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90796)

Voters by Round

Round 1 - 31
Round 2 - 22
Round 3 - 28
Round 4 - 25
Round 5 - 23
Round 6 - 22
Round 7 - 23
Round 8 - 25
Round 9 - 20
Round 10 - 16
Round 11 - 21
Round 12 - 17
Round 13 - 17
Round 14 - 17
Round 15 - 16
Round 16 - 19
Round 17 - 18
Round 18 - 20
Round 19 - 16
Round 20 - 22
Round 21 - 23

Mistakes (34)

Dave Bancroft (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bancrda01.shtml), SS, 1915-30

Chief Bender (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bendech01.shtml), SP, 1903-17, 1925

Jim Bottomley (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bottoji01.shtml), 1B, 1922-37

Jack Chesbro (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/chesbja01.shtml), SP, 1899-1909

Earle Combs (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/combsea01.shtml), CF, 1924-35

Candy Cummings (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cummica01.shtml), SP, 1872-77

Kiki Cuyler (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cuyleki01.shtml), RF, 1921-38

Johnny Evers (http://www.baseball-reference.com/e/eversjo01.shtml), 2B, 1902-17, 1922, 1929

Rick Ferrell (http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/ferreri01.shtml), C, 1929-45, 1947

Chick Hafey (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hafeych01.shtml), LF, 1924-35, 1937

Jesse Haines (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/haineje01.shtml), SP, 1918, 1920-37

Harry Hooper (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hoopeha01.shtml), RF, 1909-25

Waite Hoyt (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hoytwa01.shtml), SP, 1918-38

Catfish Hunter (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hunteca01.shtml), SP, 1965-79

Travis Jackson (http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jackstr01.shtml), SS, 1922-36

Judy Johnson (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&pid=7030&bid=693), 3B, 1918-37

George Kell (http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kellge01.shtml), 3B, 1943-57

George Kelly (http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kellyge01.shtml), 1B, 1915-17, 1919-30, 1932

Chuck Klein (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kleinch01.shtml?redir), RF, 1928-44

Tony Lazzeri (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/lazzeto01.shtml), 2B, 1926-39

Freddie Lindstrom (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/lindsfr01.shtml), 3B, 1924-36

Ernie Lombardi (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lombaer01.shtml), C, 1931-47

Heinie Manush (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/manushe01.shtml), RF, 1923-39

Rube Marquard (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/marquru01.shtml), SP, 1908-25

Bill Mazeroski (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mazerbi01.shtml), 2B, 1956-72

Tommy McCarthy (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mccarto01.shtml), RF, 1884-96

Herb Pennock (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/pennohe01.shtml?redir), SP, 1912-17, 1919-34

Jim Rice (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/riceji01.shtml), LF, 1974-89

Phil Rizzuto (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rizzuph01.shtml), SS, 1941-42, 1946-56

Ray Schalk (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/schalra01.shtml?redir), C, 1912-29

Red Schoendienst (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/schoere01.shtml), 2B, 1945-63

Joe Tinker (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tinkejo01.shtml), SS, 1902-16

Lloyd Waner (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/wanerll01.shtml), CF, 1927-42, 1944-45

Ross Youngs (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/y/youngro01.shtml), RF, 1917-26

[AstrosFan]

I went with last round's group, and added in Bobby Wallace, who, after looking at it more closely, was never a Hall of Fame player. As Matt put it last round, "absolutely, positively ZERO peak dominance." The great career value is a matter of being consistently good for a long time, but he never reached HOF level. I've been making that argument about Sam Rice, and I'm going to take the same approach to Wallace now.

So, my list is:

Everyone.

[jalbright]

Sutter
Taylor
Welch

[jjpm74]

Mickey Welch--Had Welch not gotten to 300 wins and had the powers that be not decided that 300 wins was an automatic benchmark for a HOFer several generations after Welch was gone from the game, Mickey Welch never would have been elected in the first place. Being 8th-10th best in a league of 20-30 doesn't qualify as a stand out pitcher. In an era where you had guys like Charlie Sweeney (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/sweench01.shtml) get to 1000 IP in 5 seasons and end up in the top 10 all time in WHIP and Jim Devlin (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/devliji01.shtml) sneak onto that leaderboard and get to 1455 IP in 3 seasons, 300 wins was not a special feat. The only categories Mickey Welch ever lead the league in were walks, earned runs and once he led in winning PCT. Welch was the product of an era where a team carried at most 2 full time pitchers and had the good fortune of having a rubber arm that got him to 300 wins before his arm fell apart.

I haven't been voting for Ben Taylor because I don't know much about him. Any info on why he doesn't belong could very easily persuade me to vote for him next round

[bambambaseball]

I figure I should vote for someone and I probably wouldnt have voted for Welch as a definite HOFer so hes the one!:cool:

[jalbright]

The best I can figure is that Ben Taylor is like George Sisler, with the extremes flattened out. That is, he wasn't nearly as good as Sisler at his best, but he was better than Sisler after the sinus infection. Since Sisler is a guy I wouldn't support but for the exceptional peak performance, that makes Taylor a non-starter for me.

[PVNICK]

Mickey Welch
Hack Wilson - if he drove in 180 runs in 1930 we wouldn't be having this "conversation" about him.

[jjpm74]

The best I can figure is that Ben Taylor is like George Sisler, with the extremes flattened out. That is, he wasn't nearly as good as Sisler at his best, but he was better than Sisler after the sinus infection. Since Sisler is a guy I wouldn't support but for the exceptional peak performance, that makes Taylor a non-starter for me.

Who had the better career value overall? How does Taylor compare to Bill Terry? Terry is my cutoff for 1st basemen with Sisler only 1 slot ahead of Terry thanks to his peak. Did Taylor have any seasons where he was considered among the best in his league or was he like Lave Cross in that he had many good seasons but no great seasons? Sisler's peak was an all time great peak, IMO which is where I'm having difficulty resolving whether or not Ben Taylor would be a guy I would vote for if I were on the special committee that elected him.

[jalbright]

Who had the better career value overall? How does Taylor compare to Bill Terry? Terry is my cutoff for 1st basemen with Sisler only 1 slot ahead of Terry thanks to his peak. Did Taylor have any seasons where he was considered among the best in his league or was he like Lave Cross in that he had many good seasons but no great seasons? Sisler's peak was an all time great peak, IMO which is where I'm having difficulty resolving whether or not Ben Taylor would be a guy I would vote for if I were on the special committee that elected him.

With the short Negro League seasons (granted they played a lot, but the games that counted in the Leagues rarely exceeded 90), I personally find it hard to credit players with standout great seasons unless they did it several years in a row, a la Gibson, Lloyd, Charleston, etc. Taylor isn't as bad as Judy Johnson to be sure, but I personally don't see the Sisler-like dominance of a few years in him.

[jalbright]

Here's a post with what data I have on Taylor (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=579875&postcount=48). The thing that stands out to me is he isn't mentioned as among the league leaders in any season.

[AstrosFan]

Given that Taylor was a first baseman, and based on what I've seen of the MLE translations from the raw stats at BBTF for players in judging the relative difficulty of dominance in the Negro Leagues, I don't see any way Taylor can be called a Hall of Famer, looking at what you provided, Jim.

[jalbright]

Obviously, I tend to agree, but you do have to remember he's straddling the 1920 time frame, which complicates things a bit. Regardless, I am definitely unconvinced Taylor is good enough, and that's enough for me at present.

[AstrosFan]

In a way, I'm kind of glad Early Wynn is likely to be dropped this round. I'm the only person to vote for him so far this round, but as I've said, it's more one of those 'I've never thought of him as a HOFer' things than any great statistical argument.

[jjpm74]

Ben Taylor will be one person I will be voting for in the next election. I will also continue to vote for Mickey Welch if he doesn't stay over the 60% threshold this election.

[AstrosFan]

I guess I can't add anyone to my list.

***

Voting ends in about 12 hours, so anyone who wishes to give us their input still has time to do so.

[Jsquared83]

Perez
Sutter
Wilson

[AstrosFan]

First Last Votes Possible Pct Mistake? Stay
Tony Perez 9 20 45.00% N Y
Sam Rice 7 20 35.00% N Y
Bruce Sutter 14 20 70.00% Y N
Ben Taylor 10 20 50.00% N Y
Bobby Wallace 8 20 40.00% N Y
Mickey Welch 12 20 60.00% Y N
Vic Willis 8 20 40.00% N Y
Hack Wilson 9 20 45.00% N Y
Early Wynn 2 20 10.00% N Y

Sutter and Welch are our new additions to the list. Wynn looks like he'll be dropped after next round. Taylor seems to be gaining steam as people get more information about him. It's possible he hits the 60% threshold.