If Babe Ruth wasn't traded

[PACrdfn]

to the Yankees, do you think that things could have worked out where the Dodgers stay in the NY area and in Brooklyn? I was thinking about that. Maybe if the Yanks don't get Ruth, they don't become the preeminent team in the New York City area and in MLB. And, maybe Walter O'Malley buys them instead and moves them to LA.

[six4three]

Sorry, I'm not seeing it.

The Dodgers didn't move because the Yankees ran them out of town, they moved because the city wasn't willing to condemn land for a new ballpark.

[The Commissioner]

Another scenario might also exist where if Ruth doesn't get traded, baseball struggles to recover from the Black Sox scandal. One of the biggest stars of the era doesn't get a chance to star on the biggest stage and New York struggles to support three ML baseball teams in relatively close proximity to one another.

[aqib]

The Yanks still win a couple of titles in the 20s without Ruth, just not as many. I think the Giants were more impacted by the Yankees rise since:

1) The Yanks were a tenant at the Polo Grounds but Ruth propelled them to be able to build their own park that was revenue the Giants lost. Also the Yanks and Giants could have jointed built a stadium.

2) Yankee stadium was 2 minutes away from the Polo Grounds so they were more of a direct competition for fan dollars then the Dodgers were.

[aqib]

OK I have actually been thinking about this. If the Yankees don't get Ruth they still win a couple of titles in the 20s but don't get Yankee Stadium built and continue leasing the Polo Grounds. If thats the case either Stoneham's west side stadium gets done because you would have 3 teams in it (baseball and football Giants and the Yankees) or the stadium in the Bronx near Whitesone bridge that he proposed. So with the Giants getting a deal to stay local the Dodgers don't go to LA unless they can get another NL team to go west.

[Bazookadale]

The Dodgers didn't move because the Yankees ran them out of town, they moved because the city wasn't willing to condemn land for a new ballpark.

Without Ruth the Yankees don't become the premier team in NY and decide to go back to Baltimore. Without the extra revenue from the Yankees, the Giants decide to move to Minneapolis. This leaves the Dodgers as the only game in town so Robert Moses is glad to give them any site they want to replace Ebbets Field. When Nikita Khrushchev visits the U.S. in 1959, instead of visiting California they take him to a Dodger game. He falls in love with Brooklyn and America, doesn't put missiles in Cuba and works out a settlement in Vietnam. Kennedy is not assassinated but his economic policies are so bad that Nixon is elected in '64 . Rosie O'Donnell's mother doesn't die and Rosie is raised as a right wing Republican who marries Rush Limbaugh and leads the fight to ban gay marriage.

Don't you just love "What Ifs?"
__________________

[PACrdfn]

Without Ruth the Yankees don't become the premier team in NY and decide to go back to Baltimore. Without the extra revenue from the Yankees, the Giants decide to move to Minneapolis. This leaves the Dodgers as the only game in town so Robert Moses is glad to give them any site they want to replace Ebbets Field. When Nikita Khrushchev visits the U.S. in 1959, instead of visiting California they take him to a Dodger game. He falls in love with Brooklyn and America, doesn't put missiles in Cuba and works out a settlement in Vietnam. Kennedy is not assassinated but his economic policies are so bad that Nixon is elected in '64 . Rosie O'Donnell's mother doesn't die and Rosie is raised as a right wing Republican who marries Rush Limbaugh and leads the fight to ban gay marriage.

Don't you just love "What Ifs?"
__________________

One crazy thing that I heard is that the Yankees could have moved to Boston in the early 20's. This article explains the situation:

http://static.espn.go.com/mlb/s/2002/0718/1407265.html

Another thing is, if Nixon is in office in 64, then maybe Bobby Kennedy isn't assassinated and wins in 68. He stays President until 76, which takes away Watergate. Then, maybe Reagan takes over in 76 instead of Carter.

[philliesfiend55]

to the Yankees, do you think that things could have worked out where the Dodgers stay in the NY area and in Brooklyn? I was thinking about that. Maybe if the Yanks don't get Ruth, they don't become the preeminent team in the New York City area and in MLB. And, maybe Walter O'Malley buys them instead and moves them to LA.

It's More likely that the NY Giants would have remained New Yorkers' team of choice and that the Giants would be headed for several dynasties. Once Ruth arrived in NYC it took two years before the Yankees won the A.L. pennant (1921) and four years before they won the World's championship (1923). In large part that was due to the Giants beating the Yankees in head-to-head competition in The Series.The Giants won NL pennants in 1905, 1911, 1912, 1913, 1917 and 1921 through 1924. They won the World Series in 1905 and beat the Yankees in the Series in '21 & '22. Without Ruth and Gehrig's arrival in pinstripes the Giants would have remained the dominant team in New York for decades to come.

-philliesfiend55-

[EdTarbusz]

to the Yankees, do you think that things could have worked out where the Dodgers stay in the NY area and in Brooklyn? I was thinking about that. Maybe if the Yanks don't get Ruth, they don't become the preeminent team in the New York City area and in MLB. And, maybe Walter O'Malley buys them instead and moves them to LA.

The Yankees would have likely had to have been associated with the Brookyn Trust Company for Walter O'Malley to get involved with them. Brooklyn Trust was O'Malley's way into the Dodgers ownership.

[jaykay]

I thought I might take a moment of your time to duplicate a message which was posted here some time ago. One does not immediately connect Babe Ruth with the Brooklyn Dodgers, but over the years some esoteric tidbits have emerged on this forum, including the one that follows. The information, said to be contributed by someone who may have been there, sheds light on all of the personalities involved. The contributor vanished as quickly as he emerged. You are free to absorb or reject, as you wish - but I found this to be one of the most fascinating entries of all.
:baseball::baseball::baseball::baseball::baseball: :baseball::baseball::baseball:

Not Generally Known
I have mentioned elsewhere that my father worked in the plumbing supplies business for many years. As a result, he had access to numerous documents of which the general public was not aware. These included sketches, memoirs, etc. of America's greatest plumbers: among them, of course, was D.J. Donovan (Dan, to his friends), immortalized as the installer of the original plumbing fixtures in Ebbets Field. If this were all we knew about him, he would be a figure of heroic proportions to many of us. But thanks to my father's abiding interest in both his occupation and the Brooklyn Dodgers, I have privileged information to share concerning Donovan and other major historical figures. This information may surprise you, it may astound you, it may even bore you to distraction. But for those who enjoy a challenge, read on.....

Although, as we have seen, D.J. Donovan played a significant role in the history of Brooklyn baseball, I would not have you believe that his life had always held the promise of great achievement. In fact, as a boy running wild on the streets of Baltimore with his pal George Ruth, he was fully expected to reach a woeful, premature end. That is, until the two of them were rounded up and shipped off to St. Mary's Home for Wayward Boys, where they thrived on the benevolent discipline of Brother Matthias - who also taught them how to swing a bat instead of a left hook.

As the boys grew and, after a fashion, matured, the diamond exploits of the St. Mary's nine captured the attention of Jack Dunn, manager, general manager and business manager of the legendary Baltimore Orioles of that era, who was prevailed upon by Brother Matthias to attend the eagerly awaited matchup between St. Mary's and the highly-rated squad from the St. Christopher's School for Wayward Girls. Dunn watched keenly as George Ruth stroked three over the fence into the rectory flower garden, while striking out 23 opposing batters in just seven innings. This was made possible because the St. Mary's backstop, Dan Donovan, had as much trouble catching a curve ball as he did hitting one.
Following the game, George, Dan, Brother Matthias and Jack Dunn gathered in the twilight.
"Well," Brother Matthias asked Dunn, "isn't he everything I said he was?"
"That's the gospel truth," Dunn replied. "And only fourteen. I'll be back to get him in a year or two." Noting the crestfallen looks surrounding him, Dunn added: "I can't sign him now, Brother Matthias. He's still a babe." [Pause here for dramatic music]
"And what about me, Mr. Dunn?" asked Dan Donovan. "Do you think the Orioles could use me?"
Jack Dunn placed an arm lightly around the boy's shoulder and replied in the most fatherly way he could manage: "Lad, my advice is that you stay in school and learn a trade. Plumbing, for example."

In due time other ball clubs heard about the phenomenal talents of George Ruth, and came calling on Brother Matthias. Not generally known is that Ruth received his first genuine offer from the Brooklyn team, and was encouraged by D.J. Donovan to take it.
"It's the big leagues, Babe. You'll be going right to the top."
"Yeah, but I'd rather stay in Baltimore. I don't know anybody in Brooklyn."
"Aw, the guys would come to see you. I'm going there myself to start a plumbing business. Brooklyn ain't so far."
"I know, but...what if the team don't stay in Brooklyn? What if it moves to...like -some place in California?"
"What, are you kidding me? They never heard of baseball in California."
This conversation, which took place in the dormitory just before lights out, was being carefully monitored by one of the other (formerly) wayward boys, a faint smile playing about the corners of his mouth. Patrick O'Malley was his name, and he, too, was, in his own way, destined for great things as the progenitor of a powerful, controversial family. But that's another story.

D.J. Donovan prospered in the plumbing business, George Ruth did not sign with Brooklyn, and all there is left to tell is of the day the Babe, now world-famous, returned to St. Mary's at the invitation of Brother Matthias, to deliver an inspirational message to the youngsters who were still trying to find their place in the world. As the Babe emerged from his touring car and made his way toward the entrance with a chorus girl on each arm, he was fortunate to be greeted there by Brother Matthias himself, who prevailed upon George to have the girls wait in the car.
Babe's message to the boys was deemed a great success, although he was not permitted to pass out cigars afterward. As the Babe shook hands and waved goodbye, one of the newly-admitted urchins, Willie Bendix, tugged on Brother Matthias's robe and murmured: "Gee, I wish I were him."
"Don't worry," said Brother Matthias consolingly. "You will be."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Ace Venom]

This wasn't the case like the Browns where you had two teams in a city that couldn't have supported two teams in the long run. I have no problem believing that New York could still support three teams, but the circumstances resulted in two teams leaving New York and an expansion team settling in Queens. Even with Ruth and Gehrig, there's no reason to suspect that the Yankees would have been the team leaving New York.

The Browns had George Sisler back in the day and were still chased out of town by the Cardinals years later. Polo Grounds and Ebbets Field needed to be replaced and the city of New York was not going to bow to O'Malley's wishes. Thus, New York lost two NL teams because of egos and nothing more. O'Malley could just as easily have taken the offer to have the stadium in Queens. Stoneham could have done the same thing because Polo Grounds was fine enough for the Mets to use before they moved into Shea Stadium.

[penncentralpete]

I thought I might take a moment of your time to duplicate a message which was posted here some time ago. One does not immediately connect Babe Ruth with the Brooklyn Dodgers, but over the years some esoteric tidbits have emerged on this forum, including the one that follows. The information, said to be contributed by someone who may have been there, sheds light on all of the personalities involved. The contributor vanished as quickly as he emerged. You are free to absorb or reject, as you wish - but I found this to be one of the most fascinating entries of all.
:baseball::baseball::baseball::baseball::baseball: :baseball::baseball::baseball:

Not Generally Known
I have mentioned elsewhere that my father worked in the plumbing supplies business for many years. As a result, he had access to numerous documents of which the general public was not aware. These included sketches, memoirs, etc. of America's greatest plumbers: among them, of course, was D.J. Donovan (Dan, to his friends), immortalized as the installer of the original plumbing fixtures in Ebbets Field. If this were all we knew about him, he would be a figure of heroic proportions to many of us. But thanks to my father's abiding interest in both his occupation and the Brooklyn Dodgers, I have privileged information to share concerning Donovan and other major historical figures. This information may surprise you, it may astound you, it may even bore you to distraction. But for those who enjoy a challenge, read on.....

Although, as we have seen, D.J. Donovan played a significant role in the history of Brooklyn baseball, I would not have you believe that his life had always held the promise of great achievement. In fact, as a boy running wild on the streets of Baltimore with his pal George Ruth, he was fully expected to reach a woeful, premature end. That is, until the two of them were rounded up and shipped off to St. Mary's Home for Wayward Boys, where they thrived on the benevolent discipline of Brother Matthias - who also taught them how to swing a bat instead of a left hook.

As the boys grew and, after a fashion, matured, the diamond exploits of the St. Mary's nine captured the attention of Jack Dunn, manager, general manager and business manager of the legendary Baltimore Orioles of that era, who was prevailed upon by Brother Matthias to attend the eagerly awaited matchup between St. Mary's and the highly-rated squad from the St. Christopher's School for Wayward Girls. Dunn watched keenly as George Ruth stroked three over the fence into the rectory flower garden, while striking out 23 opposing batters in just seven innings. This was made possible because the St. Mary's backstop, Dan Donovan, had as much trouble catching a curve ball as he did hitting one.
Following the game, George, Dan, Brother Matthias and Jack Dunn gathered in the twilight.
"Well," Brother Matthias asked Dunn, "isn't he everything I said he was?"
"That's the gospel truth," Dunn replied. "And only fourteen. I'll be back to get him in a year or two." Noting the crestfallen looks surrounding him, Dunn added: "I can't sign him now, Brother Matthias. He's still a babe." [Pause here for dramatic music]
"And what about me, Mr. Dunn?" asked Dan Donovan. "Do you think the Orioles could use me?"
Jack Dunn placed an arm lightly around the boy's shoulder and replied in the most fatherly way he could manage: "Lad, my advice is that you stay in school and learn a trade. Plumbing, for example."

In due time other ball clubs heard about the phenomenal talents of George Ruth, and came calling on Brother Matthias. Not generally known is that Ruth received his first genuine offer from the Brooklyn team, and was encouraged by D.J. Donovan to take it.
"It's the big leagues, Babe. You'll be going right to the top."
"Yeah, but I'd rather stay in Baltimore. I don't know anybody in Brooklyn."
"Aw, the guys would come to see you. I'm going there myself to start a plumbing business. Brooklyn ain't so far."
"I know, but...what if the team don't stay in Brooklyn? What if it moves to...like -some place in California?"
"What, are you kidding me? They never heard of baseball in California."
This conversation, which took place in the dormitory just before lights out, was being carefully monitored by one of the other (formerly) wayward boys, a faint smile playing about the corners of his mouth. Patrick O'Malley was his name, and he, too, was, in his own way, destined for great things as the progenitor of a powerful, controversial family. But that's another story.

D.J. Donovan prospered in the plumbing business, George Ruth did not sign with Brooklyn, and all there is left to tell is of the day the Babe, now world-famous, returned to St. Mary's at the invitation of Brother Matthias, to deliver an inspirational message to the youngsters who were still trying to find their place in the world. As the Babe emerged from his touring car and made his way toward the entrance with a chorus girl on each arm, he was fortunate to be greeted there by Brother Matthias himself, who prevailed upon George to have the girls wait in the car.
Babe's message to the boys was deemed a great success, although he was not permitted to pass out cigars afterward. As the Babe shook hands and waved goodbye, one of the newly-admitted urchins, Willie Bendix, tugged on Brother Matthias's robe and murmured: "Gee, I wish I were him."
"Don't worry," said Brother Matthias consolingly. "You will be."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow JayKay...................for a minute I thought I was back in the Brooklyn Dodger forum of the "good ol' days".......thanks for the memories (apologies to Bob Hope).