Charlie Hough

[Cowtipper]

Charlie Hough is an interesting case, if you can call him that, as he spent about the first half of his career mostly as a reliever and the second half of his career as a starter. He managed to log 25 years in the big leagues because was a knuckleballer.

Hough posted a 216-216 record to go along with a 3.75 ERA, 107 complete games and 2,362 strikeouts. He was an All-Star once, in 1986. He led the league in IP once, GS twice and CG once. He is not similar to any Hall of Famers, however he is similar to some notable pitchers: Bobo Newsom, Joe Niekro, Sam Jones, Jerry Koosman, Adonis Terry, Jerry Reuss, Frank Tanana, Chuck Finley, Mickey Lolich and Dennis Martinez.

Interestingly, Hough is the only pitcher ever to have over 400 career starts and 400 career relief appearances, and he has the most decisions of any pitcher with a .500 career winning percentage.

In his first and only year of Hall of Fame eligibility, he received four votes for the Hall of Fame.

Well...what do you think about Mr. Hough? Do you think he should be in the Hall of Fame?

[bambambaseball]

He was a pitcher who played forever because of his mastery of a junk pitch. Hough is an interesting guy to talk about and a valuable asset to the teams he played for, but he didnt have a HOF type career.

[ol' aches and pains]

If my guy Bert Blyleven can't get in with a .534 winning percentage, despite 60 complete game shutouts, I don't think Charlie belongs with a .500.

[KCGHOST]

Charlie was a decent enough knuckleballing innings eater. But, not an HoFer.

[BenHertz]

If there was a Hall of Fame for knuckleball pitchers, then yes.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Hough might have been a HOF career if he had been a starter from the gate. As a starter, he was pretty consistent from year to year. As he started out with the Dodgers during their best years, he well might have racked up some impressive victory totals during those times. It is not unreasonable that Hough could have achieved at least one 20-win season, and a career victory total of at least 250 wins, and maybe more, if he had been a starter from the get-go. It would have been unlikely, but not impossible, for Hough to have won 300 games if he had been a starter from the beginning, and he might have become the first 300 game winner to have never won 20 games.

Hough's not a HOFer on the basis of what he actually did, and there are no "hidden indicators" that suggest he was a lot better than his record, other than he compiled good W-L records for Texas Ranger teams that, by and large, struggled. Had he been a career starter, his career numbers might be closer to, say Jamie Moyer or David Wells. Moyer's in the HOF discussion, but he's not helping himself this season. Wells, by consensus, falls short. Wells and Moyer, however, are guys who put themselves into the discussion by (A) hanging around a long time and (B) doing pretty good on ability retention, the two things Hough can say for his career.

Still, the more I look at Hough's career, I don't see a HOFer, even if he had begun starting earlier. Moyer and Wells reached late-in-life peaks that Hough didn't approach; they're in the discussion moreso than Hough because, in the final analysis, they had higher peaks than Hough; peaks that were consistent with a HOFer. Truthfully, Hough's peak value isn 't anything special. I'd put Dave Stewart or Bob Welch in the HOF before Hough, and I think I'd say that even if he had been a starter his entire career.

[dgarza]

Hough might have been a HOF career if he had been a starter from the gate. As a starter, he was pretty consistent from year to year. It is possible.

If we look as his years as a starter in his 30s (1982-1987), he looks solid, like a Jack Morris lite or Jack Morris on a lesser team:

Cnt Player **W** From To Ages G GS CG SHO GF L W-L% SV IP H R ER BB SO ERA ERA+ HR BF IBB HBP BK WP Teams BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ SH SF 2B 3B GDP SB CS Pk
+----+-----------------+-------+----+----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+-----+---+------+----+----+----+----+----+------+----+---+-----+---+---+---+---+-----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+----+---+---+
1 Jack Morris 111 1982 1987 27-32 213 213 87 15 0 70 .613 0 1590.1 1393 674 617 551 1137 3.49 116 187 6596 40 11 4 93 DET .234 .298 .377 .675 84 41 32 211 40 103 123 55 5
2 Charlie Hough 96 1982 1987 34-39 211 210 74 9 1 79 .549 0 1512 1320 710 609 557 954 3.62 116 160 6324 12 54 15 66 TEX .234 .307 .374 .681 85 32 38 240 34 106 130 71 33

[philliesfiend55]

Ol' Cholly hung on one season too long. He was 202-191 through 1992,
211-207 through '93, and his 5-9 record before injuries and the baseball strike ended his '94 season dropped him to .500 lifetime at 216-216. Still, he was a great competitor with a lot of heart and smarts, if not ranking among the greatest in his era in the natural talent department, and he lasted
a quarter of a century in the major leagues (1970-1994).

Also - I believe he set a record which may still stand: oldest player in his first
all-star game appearence (age 38).

[SABR Matt]

It is possible.

If we look as his years as a starter in his 30s (1982-1987), he looks solid, like a Jack Morris lite or Jack Morris on a lesser team:

Cnt Player **W** From To Ages G GS CG SHO GF L W-L% SV IP H R ER BB SO ERA ERA+ HR BF IBB HBP BK WP Teams BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ SH SF 2B 3B GDP SB CS Pk
+----+-----------------+-------+----+----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+-----+---+------+----+----+----+----+----+------+----+---+-----+---+---+---+---+-----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+----+---+---+
1 Jack Morris 111 1982 1987 27-32 213 213 87 15 0 70 .613 0 1590.1 1393 674 617 551 1137 3.49 116 187 6596 40 11 4 93 DET .234 .298 .377 .675 84 41 32 211 40 103 123 55 5
2 Charlie Hough 96 1982 1987 34-39 211 210 74 9 1 79 .549 0 1512 1320 710 609 557 954 3.62 116 160 6324 12 54 15 66 TEX .234 .307 .374 .681 85 32 38 240 34 106 130 71 33



Since Jack Morris is not a hall of famer, that's not a good comparison on which to base a Hough for HOF claim. Here's Hough's career by PCA
Yr Lg Off Def Pit O-M D-M P-M Wins
1985 AL 0.00 0.21 8.53 0.0 0.2 13.8 8.74
1983 AL 0.00 0.69 5.45 0.0 1.1 7.5 6.14
1987 AL 0.00 0.47 5.22 0.0 0.6 6.6 5.69
1982 AL 0.00 0.20 4.57 0.0 0.2 6.0 4.77
1986 AL 0.00 0.40 4.11 0.0 0.6 5.2 4.51
1984 AL 0.00 0.31 3.97 0.0 0.3 4.3 4.28
1988 AL 0.00 0.51 3.51 0.0 0.7 3.6 4.02
1976 NL 0.09 0.10 2.75 0.0 0.1 3.6 2.94
1990 AL 0.00 0.29 2.55 0.0 0.4 2.2 2.84
1991 AL 0.00 0.31 2.07 0.0 0.4 1.5 2.38
1977 NL -0.03 0.04 2.20 -0.2 0.0 2.7 2.21
1992 AL 0.00 0.18 1.77 0.0 0.2 1.2 1.95
1978 NL 0.11 0.00 1.80 0.2 -0.1 2.4 1.91
1974 NL -0.13 0.13 1.90 -0.4 0.2 2.6 1.90
1993 NL -1.38 0.35 2.52 -3.2 0.5 2.2 1.49
1981 AL 0.00 0.04 1.41 0.0 0.0 1.7 1.45
1989 AL 0.00 0.26 1.13 0.0 0.4 -0.2 1.39
1973 NL -0.11 0.16 1.20 -0.3 0.3 1.4 1.25
1980 AL 0.00 0.00 1.19 0.0 0.0 1.5 1.19

The funny thing is...he was a much better pitcher than Morris when he was at his peak...
Yr Lg Off Def Pit O-M D-M P-M Wins
1985 AL 0.00 0.39 5.28 0.0 0.6 7.1 5.67
1987 AL 0.00 0.20 5.35 0.0 0.2 7.1 5.55
1980 AL 0.00 0.49 4.33 0.0 0.7 5.2 4.82
1986 AL 0.00 0.45 4.18 0.0 0.7 4.7 4.63
1991 AL 0.00 0.25 4.02 0.0 0.3 4.7 4.27
1979 AL 0.00 0.10 4.01 0.0 0.0 5.3 4.11
1981 AL 0.00 0.35 3.73 0.0 0.5 4.8 4.08
1983 AL 0.00 0.28 3.74 0.0 0.3 3.4 4.02
1992 AL 0.00 0.19 3.34 0.0 0.1 3.4 3.53
1982 AL 0.00 0.38 2.86 0.0 0.5 2.1 3.24
1984 AL 0.00 0.33 2.81 0.0 0.4 2.3 3.14
1990 AL 0.00 0.17 2.96 0.0 0.1 2.5 3.13
1988 AL 0.00 0.30 2.75 0.0 0.4 2.2 3.05
1994 AL 0.00 0.15 1.40 0.0 0.1 0.8 1.55
1989 AL 0.00 0.08 1.15 0.0 0.0 -0.1 1.23
1977 AL 0.00 0.04 1.06 0.0 0.0 1.5 1.10

DNRA+ for these two guys...the career totals say Hough is a 99 DNRA+ pitcher for his career and Morris is a 105 DNRA+ pitcher...that may be because Hough hung around too long.

[dgarza]

Since Jack Morris is not a hall of famer, that's not a good comparison on which to base a Hough for HOF claim. Not a solid HOF claim, but (more precisely) a possible HOF claim, as Morris is often brought up as a possible HOFer in conversations/debates.

[dgarza]

The funny thing is...he was a much better pitcher than Morris when he was at his peak...And that's when Hough was in his 30s. It is likely that Hough as a starter in his 20s would have had an even more impressive peak.

[SABR Matt]

Could very well be. I think Hough was always a guy with a "starter's rhythm" (i.e. his command improved in the rotation).

[jjpm74]

Hough was a tough, gritty pitcher who enjoyed a long career. His mastery over the knuckleball allowed him to stick around in the majors leagues forever. His career was nowhere near a HOF type career, however.

As for the argument that he could have been a dominant pitcher in his 20s, I highly doubt it. He was the type of pitcher who did not rely on velocity to overpower pitchers. His 20s probably would have resembled his 30s had he been a starter those years.

[Paul Wendt]

Hough made the major leagues permanently at age 22, like Joe Niekro. That is in sharp contrast with Tim Wakefield, Tom Candiotti, Phil Niekro, and Hoyt Wilhelm --especially Wilhelm, who was two months short of 29 at his debut.

Wilhelm was a regular starting pitcher only once, his first full season with Baltimore at age 36, when he led the league in ERA. Why did they put him back in the pen?

Atlanta and Houston used the Niekro brothers to start 20 and 22 games in 1967 and made them both regular starting pitchers in 1968, at ages 29 and 23. When Hough debuted for Los Angeles a couple years later, Phil had been a big success and Joe had been mediocre; Detroit, Atlanta, and Houston consigned him to the pen for the next seven years. With Hough the Dodgers clearly followed the Wilhelm model rather than the Niekro model.

The Dodgers did have plenty of starting pitchers in 1973: Messersmith, Sutton, John, Osteen, and Downing with ERA+ 144 to 105. Doug Rau started three games, Hough none; Hough was more successful in relief. Next year they moved Rau into the rotation to replace Osteen. In 1975 they picked up Hooton and Rau blossomed; they were loaded. Rick Rhoden moved from the wings to the rotation in 1976. Over three years Hooton, Sutton, Rhoden, Rau, and John gave them 15 seasons with the low ERA+ being 96 for Rhoden in 1978, when Bob Welch bumped him midseason.