BBF VC Progressive HoF Contributors Election: 1951

[Ace Venom]

Below is our master ballot of contributors as generated by the participants in the BBFVC Progressive Contributors Committee and a database supplied by jalbright. Please feel free to suggest new candidates to consider as I'm only caretaker of this end of the project and could have easily overlooked someone:

Contributors Ballot:

Cap Anson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap_Anson)
Frank Bancroft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Bancroft)
Ed Bolden (http://www.theforgottenleagues.com/ed_bolden_pp.htm)
Morgan Bulkeley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_Bulkeley)
O.P. Caylor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O._P._Caylor)
Frank Chance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Chance)
Fred Clarke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Clarke)
Charles Conlon (http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/conlon/conlon.html)
Tom Connolly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Connolly)
Candy Cummings (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1276&pid=3130)
Jack Dunn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Dunn)
Barney Dreyfuss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barney_Dreyfuss)
Al Munro Elias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_Sports_Bureau)
Bob Ferguson (http://www.19cbaseball.com/players-bob-ferguson.html)
Clark Griffith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Griffith)
Hiraoka Hiroshi (http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Hiraoka_Hiroshi)
Hughie Jennings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughie_Jennings)
Kenesaw Landis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenesaw_Mountain_Landis)
Ring Lardner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_Lardner)
Joe McCarthy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_McCarthy_(baseball))
Tommy McCarthy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_McCarthy)
Tim Murnane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Murnane)
Harry Clay Pulliam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Clay_Pulliam)
Henry Grantland Rice (http://tennesseeencyclopedia.net/imagegallery.php?EntryID=R031)
Ben Shibe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Shibe)
Alfred H. Spink (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_H._Spink)
J.G. Taylor Spink (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._G._Taylor_Spink)
C.I. Taylor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._I._Taylor)
Chris Von der Ahe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_von_der_Ahe)
John Ward (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Montgomery_Ward)
Sol White (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_White)
J.L. Wilkinson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J.L._Wilkinson)
Phillip Wrigley (http://www.aagpbl.org/league/history.cfm)

*I tried to provide links for these contributors so
participants could get a better sense of who they were.
Some links just have a mention of the perosn and some
clue as to their contribution. If someone knows of a more
informative link for any of these players, please speak up
and I will edit this list to add that information.

The following participants ballots will be counted though anyone is free to post a ballot, nominate a player or add to the discussion whether or not they are a member of the committee:

Leecemark
Jalbright
JJPM74
Ace Venom
dgarza
Paul Wendt
Philkid3
AG2004
cowtipper
PVNick
SavoyBG
Brad Harris
SABR Matt

Since this is the sixth election, participants may list as few as 0 or as many as 15 contributors, though if a blank ballot is cast here, there should be a justification for it.

Voting will commence immediately and conclude when the regular 1951 election concludes which is Saturday June 20 at 10:42 AM EST. Any contributor appearing on a minimum of 9 ballots is elected. No tallying will be done until time has expired and I ask that participants please refrain from posting comments about who the front runners are. Participants are encouraged to post ballots early and may edit as many times as they wish up to the voting deadline. They do not need to contact me if they make a change.

HALL OF FAME CONTRIBUTORS

Contributor Year Elected
Doc Adams (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=639&pid=16943) 1925
Ed Barrow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Barrow) 1941
Alex Cartwright (http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blbaseball.htm) 1925
Henry Chadwick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Chadwick_(writer)) 1925
Charlie Comiskey (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/blacksox/comiskeybio.html)1925
Jim Creighton (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&bid=770&pid=0) 1925
Rube Foster (http://www.nlbpa.com/foster__andrew_-_rube.html) 1930
Miller Huggins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_Huggins) 1941
William Hulbert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hulbert) 1925
Ned Hanlon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_Hanlon_(baseball)) 1936
Ban Johnson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_Johnson) 1936
Bill Klem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Klem) 1941
Kenesaw Landis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenesaw_Mountain_Landis) 1952
Connie Mack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connie_Mack_(baseball)) 1930
Joe McCarthy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_McCarthy_(baseball)) 1952
John McGraw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McGraw_(baseball)) 1936
Al Reach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Reach) 1946
Francis Richter (http://www.uga.edu/juro/2003/shaw.htm) 1941
Branch Rickey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Rickey) 1946
Frank Selee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Selee) 1936
AG Spalding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Spalding) 1930
Harry Wright (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Wright) 1925

Members of the Progressive HOF elected as Contributors:

1925 Doc Adams, Alex Cartwright, Henry Chadwick, Harry Wright, William Hulbert, Charlie Comiskey, Jim Creighton
1930 Rube Foster, Connie Mack, AG Spalding
1936 Ned Hanlon, Ban Johnson, John McGraw, Frank Selee
1941 Miller Huggins, Bill Klem, Francis Richter Ed Barrow
1946 Al Reach, Branch Rickey

Previous VC Contributors Threads:

1920 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83852)
1925 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84578)
1930 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85051)
1936 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86598)
1941 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87881)
1946 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89916)
1951 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=1541767)

Note: Additional contributors and pioneers can be added if a participant or outsider suggests them to the master ballot. The person suggesting a contributor does not need to be a participant in the project but does need to give a brief explanation at to who the contributor is and why (s)he is worthy of discussion. Any person who is who has contributed to the game of baseball is eligible. The contributor's ballot is not limited to contributions to MLB.

[Ace Venom]

These contributors were dropped from the master list, but could be added back in by nomination:

Franklin Pierce Adams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball's_Sad_Lexicon)
John T. Brush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_T._Brush)
Charlie H. Byrne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Byrne_(baseball))
Frank Chance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Chance)
Bill Dinneen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Dinneen)
Abner Doubleday (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abner_Doubleday)
Al Munro Elias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_Sports_Bureau)
John B. Foster (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9E05EED9123BEE32A25756C1A9649D94 6896D6CF)
Hugh Fullerton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Fullerton)
Kid Gleason (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kid_Gleason)
Willie Harridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Harridge)
Gary Herrmann (http://www.flickr.com/photos/library_of_congress/2163057717/)
Paul Krichell (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/ballplayers/player.php?name=Paul_Krichell_1882)
Charles Wellford Leavitt Jr. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Wellford_Leavitt)
Arthur Meyerhoff (http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1119565/index.htm)
Abraham G. Mills (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Mills)
Pat Moran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Moran)
Jim Mutrie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Mutrie)
Jack Norworth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Take_Me_Out_to_the_Ball_Game)
Frank Osborn (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1515971&postcount=32)
Henry Grantland Rice (http://tennesseeencyclopedia.net/imagegallery.php?EntryID=R031)
Wilbert Robinson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilbert_Robinson)
Jacob Ruppert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Ruppert)
Arthur Soden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Soden)
Charlie Somers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Somers)
George Stallings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Stallings)
Gabby Street (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabby_Street)
Ernest Thayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Thayer)
Frank Warfield (http://coe.ksu.edu/nlbemuseum/history/players/warfield.html)
Horace Wilson (http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/History_of_baseball_in_Japan)
George Wright (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Wright_(sportsman))
Charles Zaldo (http://www.library.fordham.edu/cubanbaseball/Zaldo.html)
Henry Zaldo (http://www.library.fordham.edu/cubanbaseball/Zaldo.html)
Frederick Zaldo (http://www.library.fordham.edu/cubanbaseball/Zaldo.html)

[jalbright]

Leaving out the guys already in as players:

Bolden
Connolly
Dunn
Landis
Joe McCarthy
J. G. Taylor Spink
C. I. Taylor
J. L. Wilkinson

[Ace Venom]

Cap Anson
Frank Chance
Fred Clarke
Tom Connolly
Jack Dunn
Hiraoka Hiroshi
Clark Griffith
Kennesaw Landis
Joe McCarthy
Harry Clay Pulliam
Ben Shibe
J. G. Taylor Spink
C.I. Taylor
Sol White
J.L. Wilkinson
Philip Wrigley

[jjpm74]

No Ballot. This part of the project continues against my wishes.

[SavoyBG]

MY BALLOT:

Fred Clarke
Charles Conlon
Tom Connolly
Barney Dreyfuss
Jack Dunn
Al Munro Elias - NOMINATION
Bob Ferguson
Clark Griffith
Ring Lardner
Joe McCarthy
Tommy McCarthy
Grantland Rice - NOMINATION
Chris von der Ahe
John Ward
Philip Wrigley

[leecemark]

Bolden
Dunn
Landis
McCarthy

[SABR Matt]

Bolden
Connolly
Dunn
Landis
McCarthy
Wrigley

[SavoyBG]

Bolden
Dunn
Landis
McCarthy
Wrigley


Why not Connolly?

Do you really think that after 80 years of major league baseball there has only been one umpire worthy of induction? Or maybe you think there are no umpires at all who are worthy?

Umpiring was much tougher when Connolly was working than it is now. Players and managers would regularly engage in physical confrontations with umpires back then, and were given minimal (if any) suspensions at the time.

Several umpires resigned in the middle of a season back in the 19th century, rather than continue to suffer the abuses that were done to them.

[SABR Matt]

I think it is unclear which umpires stand out above the others...as you are well aware, the system of cronyism that even today still exists in MLB umpiring (by that I mean your job is secure once you land it and you get an MLB umpiring gig based on your connections in the minor league umpiring circles these days...based on your connections with league offices in the old days) prevents one from making judgments about how great an umpire was based on service time alone.

As a result, I am not confident enough about any particular umpire to vote for any particular umpire.

With a baseball commissioner, an owner, a manager, a pioneer in baseball technology and innovation, a broadcaster...you can point to achievements that stand out...it's much harder to do this for umpires. That said...if someone can make an achievement-based argument in favor of Connolly, I might add him to my ballot

[jalbright]

Connolly was the first supervisor of umpires (in the AL), and as such set the standards for umpiring. That's a key point in his favor, which, when added to his longevity, reputation, and the fact he tended to be the AL's choice of umpire for the most important games is enough to put him over the top for me.

[Paul Wendt]

F Bancroft
T Connolly
B Ferguson
C Griffith
KM Landis
Joe McCarthy
CI Taylor
JL Wilkinson

Please count my vote as above.

Probably I will add some of these maybes.

? Bolden
? Cummings
? Dunn
? Shibe
? Spink
? Spink
? White

There may also be a pretty good case for John Ward, whom we elected as a player.

[SavoyBG]

Connolly was the first supervisor of umpires (in the AL), and as such set the standards for umpiring. That's a key point in his favor, which, when added to his longevity, reputation, and the fact he tended to be the AL's choice of umpire for the most important games is enough to put him over the top for me.


Here's some stuff on Connolly:

http://www.stevetheump.com/umpiring_history.htm

English-born Thomas H. "Tommy" Connolly umpired the American League's first game in 1901 and thirty years later became the Junior Circuit's first umpire-in-chief (1931-54); patient and reserved yet firm, he established the league's tradition of ejecting players only as a last resort and once went ten years without a banishment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Connolly

Thomas Henry Connolly (December 31, 1870 - April 28, 1961) was an English-American umpire in Major League Baseball. He officiated in the National League from 1898 to 1900, followed by 31 years of service in the American League from 1901 to 1931. In over half a century as an AL umpire and supervisor, he established the high standards for which the circuit's arbiters became known, and solidified the reputation for integrity of umpires in the major leagues.

Connolly was born in Manchester, England, and played cricket as a boy. It was not until his family emigrated to the United States in 1885, settling in Natick, Massachusetts, that he saw the game of baseball played for the first time, but he was quickly fascinated and resolved himself to learning as much about the game as he could. He immersed himself in the rule book, and within a few years was umpiring for local games. While working in YMCA games, he was discovered by major league umpire Tim Hurst, who gained a position for him in the New England League, where he umpired from 1894 to 1897. In 1898 the NL brought him up to the majors, but he was offended by the league president's reluctance to back up umpires' decisions on the field, and resigned in the middle of the 1900 season, later signing with the fledgling AL in 1901. That league's president, Ban Johnson, was eager to create a reputation for the AL as a solid challenger to the NL, and he gave umpires a greater measure of support than they had previously received, demonstrating that attacks upon umpires would not be tolerated and that their judgment was final. Connolly had the privilege of umpiring, by himself, the first American League game ever played on April 24, 1901.

Although he had begun his career by showing that he was willing to remove players from the field – he ejected 10 in his first season – he came to earn great respect from the players, and once went 10 full years without needing to throw one out of a game. He also showed an ability to stand firm against the toughest players in defense of the rules; on September 11, 1912, he called Ty Cobb out for stepping across home plate while batting, after Cobb had hit an RBI triple on the third pitch of an intentional walk. During the ensuing argument, Connolly was struck in the mouth by a bottle thrown by a spectator. His reputation earned him prominent game assignments, including the first AL games ever played at Comiskey Park, Shibe Park, Fenway Park, and Yankee Stadium. Connolly was also the sole AL umpire chosen to work in the first World Series in 1903.

In 1931, new AL president Will Harridge was concerned about widespread complaints that the quality of umpiring in the league had deteriorated, and Connolly retired from active field work to become the league's first supervisor of umpires. Travelling throughout the league to work with other umpires and ensure that everyone's work was meeting the same high standards, he remained in that post until 1954, and came to be known as the nation's foremost expert on baseball rules.

In his career, Connolly worked in an AL-record 8 World Series: 1903, 1908 (even-numbered games), 1910, 1911, 1913, 1916, 1920 and 1924. He was also the home plate umpire for Addie Joss' perfect game on October 2, 1908, one of four no-hitters in which he called balls and strikes. On May 4, 1928, he was the first base umpire for a remarkable game between the New York Yankees and the Philadelphia Athletics, in which 12 players who would eventually be elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame appeared. Leo Durocher, who would be elected as a manager, also played; both managers, Miller Huggins and Connie Mack, were eventually elected, as were Connolly and fellow umpire Bill McGowan.

Connolly was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1953, one of the first two umpires (the NL's Bill Klem was the other) named to that honor. Connolly and Klem are the only two umpires in history to have worked in five decades; Connolly's record of 31 years umpiring American League games was broken by Larry Barnett in 1999.

[SavoyBG]

I think it is unclear which umpires stand out above the others...as you are well aware, the system of cronyism that even today still exists in MLB umpiring (by that I mean your job is secure once you land it and you get an MLB umpiring gig based on your connections in the minor league umpiring circles these days...based on your connections with league offices in the old days) prevents one from making judgments about how great an umpire was based on service time alone.

As a result, I am not confident enough about any particular umpire to vote for any particular umpire.

With a baseball commissioner, an owner, a manager, a pioneer in baseball technology and innovation, a broadcaster...you can point to achievements that stand out...it's much harder to do this for umpires. That said...if someone can make an achievement-based argument in favor of Connolly, I might add him to my ballot

One thing to look at for is early world series assignments. There was no union then, no rotation of post season assigmments. They just tried to use the best umpires in the world series. Klem worked the most world series by far, which was probably as much a fucntion of there not being as many top notch NL umpires back then as there were in the AL, as much as it was a function of Klem's reputation as the best umpire around.

Connolly worked the world series 8 times:

http://www.stevetheump.com/All_time_WS_umpires.htm

Connolly, Tom 1903, 08, 10,11, 13, 16, 20, 24

But his hall of fame candidacy is as much about his other contributions to umpiring as it is about his own umpiring. These are documented in my prior post.

Unlike playing, where you can reduce each player's value to a PCA (or other) single number, the value of a contributor is not numerically measureable, but it's no accident that Connolly (along with Klem) was the first umpire to be inducted into Cooperstown.

Certainly Connolly worked a lot harder to deserve an induction than some of these club owners who did not do much more than happen to be members of the lucky sperm club, as they were born into massive fortunes created by their daddy, or ganddaddy.

[SABR Matt]

I would of course never presume to badmouth the old time umpires...they had it tough and worked very hard at their craft in an age when it was far more difficult...especially in the days before multiples umpires at each game and umpire rotations to keep guys from having to call pitches too frequently.

Klem and Connolly would be the two from that time period that I would be most comfortable electing.

I am just not a firm believer in giving my vote lightly when I am outside my areas of largest expertise.

As for the owners and "lucky sperm"...being rich does not make you a successful major league owner...nor does it get you on my HOF list...what I look for in owners and other front office personnel is: a long history of team success during their reign, innovation in business strategy (Bill Veech will get my vote on those grounds alone), name recognition in Americana (this would normally not be a big thing for me but in baseball owners, if you are a household name like Wrigley...you did something right in promoting your ballclub), and innovations in baseball study and talent evaluation (this one is big for general managers in the modern era as well of course)...this is the path for guys like Branch Rickey, Billy Beane, Bill James - pioneers in the fields of scouting, sabermetrics and talent evaluation.

[SavoyBG]

name recognition in Americana (this would normally not be a big thing for me but in baseball owners, if you are a household name like Wrigley...you did something right in promoting your ballclub)

In this case his name was better known because of the chewing gum than because he owned a baseball team, PLUS, if he hadn't had the ego required to name a ballpark after himself, his name would be a lot less known.

[SABR Matt]

I think there's a bit more to it than the chewing gum and vanity. But YMMV

[bambambaseball]

In this case his name was better known because of the chewing gum than because he owned a baseball team, PLUS, if he hadn't had the ego required to name a ballpark after himself, his name would be a lot less known.

Wrigley:

--Founded the AAGPBL
--Established the modern day way coaches are used
--Was responsible for the Cubs receiving more media attention and game coverage than any other team in baseball during his lifetime

Saying hes just a name and a chewing gum guy is like saying all Tom Connoly did was call balls and strikes and wear a black cap on his head. :rolleyes:

[PVNICK]

Bulkeley
Caylor
Connolly
Dunn
Ferguson
Griffith
McCarthy
Murnane
Alfred Spink
von der Ahe
Wilkinson

[dgarza]

Cap Anson
Morgan Bulkeley
Frank Chance
Charles Conlon
Candy Cummings
Clark Griffith
Hughie Jennings
Kenesaw Landis
Ring Lardner
Joe McCarthy
A.G. Mills
Henry Grantland Rice
Alfred H. Spink
C.I. Taylor
John Ward

[Ace Venom]

Wrigley:

--Founded the AAGPBL
--Established the modern day way coaches are used
--Was responsible for the Cubs receiving more media attention and game coverage than any other team in baseball during his lifetime

To be fair, you're leaping ahead with the second one. In the context of 1951, you don't have the college of coaches (not until 1961). The contract with WGN-TV is also pretty fresh (1948). This is something I think a lot of people don't appreciate because from a 2009 perspective, the move to put the Cubs on WGN was as a genius move. WGN is a superstation now and like the situation with the Braves on TBS for so many years, it's produced a lot of Cubs fans that are not from the Chicago area. Wrigley honestly belongs, but it's hard to tell that from a 1951 perspective.

[SABR Matt]

To be fair, you're leaping ahead with the second one. In the context of 1951, you don't have the college of coaches (not until 1961). The contract with WGN-TV is also pretty fresh (1948). This is something I think a lot of people don't appreciate because from a 2009 perspective, the move to put the Cubs on WGN was as a genius move. WGN is a superstation now and like the situation with the Braves on TBS for so many years, it's produced a lot of Cubs fans that are not from the Chicago area. Wrigley honestly belongs, but it's hard to tell that from a 1951 perspective.

I'm guilty of that mistaken perspective. I supported inducting Wrigley from a modern perspective...didn't think about what he would look like in 1951...it's very challenging to keep that in mind.

[Ace Venom]

I'm guilty of that mistaken perspective. I supported inducting Wrigley from a modern perspective...didn't think about what he would look like in 1951...it's very challenging to keep that in mind.

I honestly think there's still enough from a 1951 perspective that builds a case for Philip Wrigley.

1. Four pennants: 1932 (though William Wrigley deserves a little credit here), 1935, 1938 and 1945
2. Founded the AAGPBL during World War II
3. Contract with WGN-TV (still recent, but bears repeating)

He does deserve support right now, but he is one of the stranger omissions by the real Cooperstown.

[jalbright]

The women's league was a failure, so that doesn't carry much weight for me. The WGN thing doesn't mean much in a day and age when few have TVs--they listen to games on radio yet. The next step is the debate over whether TV will ruin the game by keeping fans away. Once that debate is resolved, then I would consider Wrigley. Call it 1961 at the earliest. As for the pennants, how much individual credit does Wrigley deserve for that?

[bambambaseball]

The women's league was a failure, so that doesn't carry much weight for me. The WGN thing doesn't mean much in a day and age when few have TVs--they listen to games on radio yet. The next step is the debate over whether TV will ruin the game by keeping fans away. Once that debate is resolved, then I would consider Wrigley. Call it 1961 at the earliest. As for the pennants, how much individual credit does Wrigley deserve for that?

The AAGPBL provided some much needed entertainment at a time when people needed to be entertained. It was not a failure. Besides for WGN, Wrigley was also responsible for getting the Cubs more radio coverage then his cross town rival and was very good at getting media coverage for the Cubs. As for the pennants, who signed the horses needed to win them?

[jalbright]

A league that lasts two years and folds, never to be seen again is something I'd call a failure. If you choose not to, that's your privilege. By what appears to be your standard, certainly the Federal League would also qualify as a success.

Wrigley had to pay somebody to play for him, else he wouldn't have a team. Even assuming he paid decently, that isn't how he got the talent. If that's all he did, he deserves precious little credit for the pennants as far as I'm concerned. If he had a key role in picking subordinates who did well, it would at least be a start, though he'd still be a step removed from the most important decisions at that rate.

[Ace Venom]

To be fair, Philip only continued what his father did with the radio broadcasts. William Wrigley Jr. was really interested in using mass media. Everyone was. A lot of P. K. Wrigley's success carried over from What Bill Veeck, Sr. had done. A lot of what the Cubs accomplished could be very well owed to his success and it was something Philip Wrigley was unable to rekindle. Of course, an owner is only as good as the people underneath him. William and Philip Wrigley still presided over some successful years for the Cubs. I think it's pretty hard to appreciate them as owners in this day and age given that they were unable to deliver the ultimate prize. If anything, Philip gets additional credit from a 2009 perspective that he didn't have in 1951.

Giving a man credit for something he hasn't done yet is not exactly the goal of this project. He'd obviously look better by later perspectives, but this isn't a guarantee. Maybe when we start talking about Jack Brickhouse in this side of the project, support for P. K. Wrigley will pick up steam.

[bambambaseball]

A league that lasts two years and folds, never to be seen again is something I'd call a failure. If you choose not to, that's your privilege. By what appears to be your standard, certainly the Federal League would also qualify as a success.


I dont know where you are getting your info from. The AAGPBL lasted for 11 years not 2! 1943-1954:

http://www.aagpbl.org/

Id call that a success Given the general attitude towards women at the time.

[bambambaseball]

Wrigley had to pay somebody to play for him, else he wouldn't have a team. Even assuming he paid decently, that isn't how he got the talent. If that's all he did, he deserves precious little credit for the pennants as far as I'm concerned. If he had a key role in picking subordinates who did well, it would at least be a start, though he'd still be a step removed from the most important decisions at that rate.

Do you think the Yankees would have been such a dynasty if Steinbrenner hadnt brought in all the talent he did? Would they be the most recognized baseball team in the world if he hadnt started the YES network and turned his team into a multi-billion dollar industry? Owners like Wrigley and Steinbrenner deserve a lot more recognition then they get.

[Ace Venom]

You could have gotten your point across without shouting. The AAGPBL is an interesting footnote in baseball history, which is something I'd call more of a resume builder for Wrigley. Given that the Cubs failed to become a dynasty akin to the Yankees despite having a number of greats file through their ranks over the years hurts Wrigley.

Mass media will eventually give him the push that he needs because if you credit Ted Turner with the national exposure of the Atlanta Braves, you can't ignore the impact that contract with WGN-TV had with the Cubs in the long term. Obviously this isn't that big of a deal from a 1951 perspective, but later generations don't seem to appreciate exactly what P. K. Wrigley did there. You can't give Wrigley credit for the jam until the fruit has ripened, but the fact that the Cubs obtained national exposure later will make the business move seem incredibly smart. Does that matter a hill of beans from a 1951 perspective? Absolutely not.

[bambambaseball]

You could have gotten your point across without shouting.

Please point out where I "shouted" anywhere above. I simply pointed out that the AAGPBL lasted for 11 years. Actually, it was 12 years. Not 2 as jalbright asserted! Big difference!

[Ace Venom]

Do you think the Yankees would have been such a dynasty if Steinbrenner hadnt brought in all the talent he did? Would they be the most recognized baseball team in the world if he hadnt started the YES network and turned his team into a multi-billion dollar industry? Owners like Wrigley and Steinbrenner deserve a lot more recognition then they get.

If you included Wrigley in the same sentence as Ted Turner in the context of mass media, you'd have something here. Steinbrenner had to have good baseball people under him to do what the Yankees have done under his tenure, which is nothing short of impressive by itself. If anything, the money he's thrown around makes him look worse in the eyes of many. The fact that he moved the Yankees out of a perfectly good stadium to the band box they have now isn't exactly great either. Still, you can't argue with success. Turner and Steinbrenner had a lot more than Wrigley did and that's the truth.

[bambambaseball]

If you included Wrigley in the same sentence as Ted Turner in the context of mass media, you'd have something here. Steinbrenner had to have good baseball people under him to do what the Yankees have done under his tenure, which is nothing short of impressive by itself. If anything, the money he's thrown around makes him look worse in the eyes of many. The fact that he moved the Yankees out of a perfectly good stadium to the band box they have now isn't exactly great either. Still, you can't argue with success. Turner and Steinbrenner had a lot more than Wrigley did and that's the truth.

Turner and Steinbrenner are the only 2 owners currently who I think are definite HOFers so youre preaching to the choir. ;)

[SABR Matt]

Calling the AAGPBL a failure is pretty off base. The league did not endure, but it was, for its time, a spectacular success early in its' run...and it played a role in redefining womens' roles in society. Getting the league to last 11 seasons in a climate where professional sports for women were unheard of was a rather remarkable achievement, although most of that credit may not go to Wrigley (the guy who started the league) but to its subsequent administrators.

I still think Wrigley's lifetime body of work earns him merit in the HOF vote...although it may be premature for me to have voted for him in 1951.

[SavoyBG]

I dont know where you are getting your info from. The AAGPBL lasted for 11 years not 2! 1943-1954:

http://www.aagpbl.org/

Id call that a success Given the general attitude towards women at the time.

The league is a joke, a circus show in skirts. I was the head umpire of a local women's baseball league for a while. And in the league were 2 or 3 players who were on the U.S. National team, so they were considered to be top female players. They just can't play. It was like 13 year olds who go to the regular size field for the first time after playing Little League. As far as I'm concerned if Wrigley had something to do with bringing us women's baseball that's a big negative on his candidacy. The best players in the world should be playing professional baseball, regardles of their natiionality, their race, or their gender. If there is a woman somewhere who is good enough to play major league baseball, by all means, she should be playing, but other than that we don't need professional baseball leagues for inferior players.

[jalbright]

Please point out where I "shouted" anywhere above. I simply pointed out that the AAGPBL lasted for 11 years. Actually, it was 12 years. Not 2 as jalbright asserted! Big difference!

The impact of the league was negligible in any event. It never expanded beyond the midwest, so despite the grandiose title, it was at best a regional thing. It's a footnote, not a big deal, or there'd at least be a professional woman's league a la the WNBA or women's soccer league right now. There isn't. The Negro Leagues were meant to get people of color into the majors some day, and to stay in business until then. They managed to do that.

[jalbright]

Do you think the Yankees would have been such a dynasty if Steinbrenner hadnt brought in all the talent he did? Would they be the most recognized baseball team in the world if he hadnt started the YES network and turned his team into a multi-billion dollar industry? Owners like Wrigley and Steinbrenner deserve a lot more recognition then they get.

Steinbrenner was the one making a lot of those decisions to buy the best talent around. What was Wrigley's involvement in bringing the talent into the fold? With the reserve system in place, he didn't have to pay much to keep them, though if he paid reasonably to keep players happy, that's to his credit. In 1951, P. Wrigley's TV move had yet to make much of an impact. I'm willing to look at it at a later date, especially when the whole superstation thing with cable TV kicked in. But in 1951, a "TeeVee" was a curiousity if someone had one, and cable was when you got a telegram.

[Cowtipper]

Frank Bancroft
Ed Bolden
O. P. Caylor
Tom Connelly
Candy Cummings
Barney Dreyfuss
Hugh Fullerton
William Harridge
Garry Herrmann
John Hillerich
Kenesaw Landis
Tommy McCarthy
Harry Clay Pulliam
Ben Shibe
Sol White

[Ace Venom]

If there is a woman somewhere who is good enough to play major league baseball, by all means, she should be playing, but other than that we don't need professional baseball leagues for inferior players.

What makes you think they were going to be called up to play on a major league team? Obviously Wrigley could have called one to the Cubs as a publicity stunt, but he never did. He decided to get out of it pretty quickly because there was more money for him in men's baseball. I've read tales about one particular player that might have been playing for the Dodgers had she been a man, so I wouldn't completely discount that. It was hard enough ending racial segregation. You think people would have jumped at the thought of women playing with men in the majors? There's no way it would have happened. As it stands, it's a minor part of his resume. It might have been more successful if Wrigley had tried to get something out of it, but we'll never know.

[AG2004]

My ballot

Ed Bolden
Tom Connolly
Candy Cummings
Jack Dunn
Bob Ferguson
Kenesaw Landis
Joe McCarthy
Ben Shibe
Sol White
J.L. Wilkinson

[Ubiquitous]

Sports fans have shown an incredible tolerance for diversity when that diversity helps their favorite team win.

[AG2004]

Do you think the Yankees would have been such a dynasty if Steinbrenner hadnt brought in all the talent he did? Would they be the most recognized baseball team in the world if he hadnt started the YES network and turned his team into a multi-billion dollar industry? Owners like Wrigley and Steinbrenner deserve a lot more recognition then they get.

Stepping from 1951 to 2009 here . . .

The Yankees would have been more successful if Steinbrenner hadn't brought in all the talent he did.

During the Steinbrenner era, what were the Yankees' key eras for winning World Series? 1977-78 and 1996-2000: six series in those seven years. Otherwise, none. The Yankees did have the best record in the AL in 1994, but there was no postseason that year.

Steinbrenner was banned from baseball from 1974 to early 1976 and again from 1990 to 1993.

The Yankees' runs of glory began shortly after Steinbrenner was unable to run the club. When he was able to run the franchise again, the team started to decline.

Steinbrenner has been criticized for neglecting player development in favor of bringing in big-name stars. Historically, the Yankees built around players from their farm clubs, and brought in a few stars to help out. Without the home-grown core, the team doesn't do to well.

Without Steinbrenner around to interfere, the Yankees were able to develop the necessary core.

---

I remember a conversation I had in fall 2003. Someone said that the Yankees were unique: no other team could go out and buy anyone and everyone they wanted.

I said that wasn't the case. Real Madrid could also did that, and, at the time, it looked like Real was trying to collect everyone who had been FIFA World Player of the Year at some point.

Real won the UEFA Champions league in 1998, 2000, and 2002; they haven't won a European title since. They were exceptional when they had a few stars to go with the players their youth system developed. But when they filled their roster with stars from elsewhere, it didn't work. The team went three seasons without winning any type of trophy - domestic league, Spanish cup, or European competition. Since the establishment of the first European championship in 1956, that has been the longest Real Madrid had ever gone without winning something.

For some reason, buying a championship team doesn't seem to work. You can buy a few players to go with players who came up through the system and get a championship team, but it appears that you still need to produce enough players through your system in order get the title.

[Ubiquitous]

Steinbrenner was suspended for 15 months and he basically missed the 1975 season in terms of being officially in charge of the Yankees.

Basically George wasn't officially in charge when the Yanks traded Murcer for Bonds and Bonds would be gone before George got back; Signed Catfish Hunter (though George did play a big part in this); traded Dobson for Gamble; and that is about it. The 1976 to 1981 team that went to the Series 4 times, won it twice, and went to the playoffs 5 times was George's team through and through.

The Yanks have been to the playoffs every single year since 1995 (except for last year). They haven't won it all since 2000 but just like the fact that they won 4 before that had some luck involved them not winning it all after that also involves some luck.

[Brad Harris]

Cap Anson
Frank Chance
Fred Clarke
Bob Ferguson
John B. Foster
Clark Griffith
Hughie Jennings
Kenesaw Landis
Joe McCarthy
Tim Murnane
Alfred H. Spink
J.G. Taylor Spink
C.I. Taylor
John Ward
J.L. Wilkinson

[PVNICK]

Stepping from 1951 to 2009 here . . .

The Yankees would have been more successful if Steinbrenner hadn't brought in all the talent he did.

During the Steinbrenner era, what were the Yankees' key eras for winning World Series? 1977-78 and 1996-2000: six series in those seven years. Otherwise, none. The Yankees did have the best record in the AL in 1994, but there was no postseason that year.

Steinbrenner was banned from baseball from 1974 to early 1976 and again from 1990 to 1993.

The Yankees' runs of glory began shortly after Steinbrenner was unable to run the club. When he was able to run the franchise again, the team started to decline.

Steinbrenner has been criticized for neglecting player development in favor of bringing in big-name stars. Historically, the Yankees built around players from their farm clubs, and brought in a few stars to help out. Without the home-grown core, the team doesn't do to well.

Without Steinbrenner around to interfere, the Yankees were able to develop the necessary core.

--- Holy #@*! I figured I wa sthe only one who saw things that way. I think Gabe Paul gets the short end of the stick and to a lesser degree Gene Michael. when I think of Steinbrenner in charge I remember the early '80s when he wanted a speed team and brought in Griffey and Dave Collins.

[AG2004]

Steinbrenner was suspended for 15 months and he basically missed the 1975 season in terms of being officially in charge of the Yankees.

Basically George wasn't officially in charge when the Yanks traded Murcer for Bonds and Bonds would be gone before George got back; Signed Catfish Hunter (though George did play a big part in this); traded Dobson for Gamble; and that is about it. The 1976 to 1981 team that went to the Series 4 times, won it twice, and went to the playoffs 5 times was George's team through and through.

When Steinbrenner bought the team in January 1973, the club already had Roy White, Thurman Munson, Sparky Lyle, and Graig Nettles (obtained November 27, 1972, according to baseball-reference). Ron Guidry came up through the minors, and was a star in 1977 and 1978. That's a good core to build a team around.

Willie Randolph was acquired in a deal with the Pirates in 1975. While Bonds was gone before Steinbrenner got back, the club exchanged him for Mickey Rivers and Ed Figueroa, who were both key pieces of the 1977-78 Series winners.

Steinbrenner did obtain Reggie Jackson, but the core was there before he bought the club, and most of the additional pieces were obtained while he was banned from baseball.

The Yanks have been to the playoffs every single year since 1995 (except for last year). They haven't won it all since 2000 but just like the fact that they won 4 before that had some luck involved them not winning it all after that also involves some luck.

It's hard to believe now, but the Yankees had the worst record in the American League in 1990. Don Mattingly had come through the farm system, but the Yankees just didn't have any home-produced stars. Jim Leyritz, Kevin Maas, and Randy Velarde had come up through the farm system, but they weren't the type of players you would build a team around. Roberto Kelly and Mike Pagliarulo had been starters in 1989, and had also come through the system, but you wouldn't build a team around them, either.

When Steinbrenner was kicked out of the game -- again -- it was the best thing that could have happened to the Yankees. Bernie Williams came up to the majors in 1991. He batted .238 that year, but, without George around, he was able to stay with the team. Other players came up in the early 1990s: Jorge Posada, Andy Pettitte, Derek Jeter, Ramiro Mendoza, and Mariano Rivera. With Williams in there, you have a solid sextet to build a champion around.

How many of those players would Steinbrenner have kept? Wouldn't he have gotten rid of some of them in order to obtain former big-name players who were going through their decline phase?

Steinbrenner didn't build either of those dynasties. He may have signed a couple of players to push them over the edge, but most of the work was done when he wasn't involved with the team. When he was at the helm for an extended period, his rule culminated in the terrible seasons of 1989 and 1990. You can coast for a while if you've inherited enough talent -- look at what the Yankees did between 2002 and 2007 -- but the failure to produce and keep talent will hurt you someday. Steinbrenner's spending on free agents merely delayed the inevitable.

[Ubiquitous]

How many of those players would Steinbrenner have kept? Wouldn't he have gotten rid of some of them in order to obtain former big-name players who were going through their decline phase?

Which were? The players the Yanks were trying to get during this time frame were Barry Bonds and Greg Maddux. It is hard to see how either those players would have made the Yanks worse in the mid to late 90's.


I think it is disingenuous to say that Steinbrenner didn't build either dynasty. Steinbrenner was gone for 2.5 seasons in the 90's and one season in the 70's. He didn't buy or bring up all the parts in either run but his pocketbook and desire to win had a tremendous impact on both those teams. I mean Tino Martinez, Chuck Knoblauch, Scott Brosius, David Cone, Orlando Hernandez, Jeff Nelson, and Roger Clemens were all brought while Steinbrenner was in full control and from what I remember Steinbrenner gave his permission on Paul O'Neil as well.

[PVNICK]

He also had to be talked out of (or wanted to) get rid of Guidry and Bernie. He had the annoying habit of hooting and hollering when he knew (if he had the intellectual capacity to do so) that he wasn't the one who would decide the outcome of the games. Then if thigns went well patting himself on the back for his motivational skills and, if not, saying I told you so. Oh he also shoudl get credit for trading Fred McGriff and Willie McGee in the early 80s when he was at his zenith of his Georgeness for Dave LaPoint and I'm not sure who.

[AG2004]

I think it is disingenuous to say that Steinbrenner didn't build either dynasty. Steinbrenner was gone for 2.5 seasons in the 90's and one season in the 70's. He didn't buy or bring up all the parts in either run but his pocketbook and desire to win had a tremendous impact on both those teams. I mean Tino Martinez, Chuck Knoblauch, Scott Brosius, David Cone, Orlando Hernandez, Jeff Nelson, and Roger Clemens were all brought while Steinbrenner was in full control and from what I remember Steinbrenner gave his permission on Paul O'Neil as well.

Most of the key parts of the earlier dynasty were either there when he bought the team or obtained during his time off.

I admit that Steinbrenner was able to bring in players in the late 1990s. However, there was a core group that he was able to add them to, and the farm system was coming up while he was banned from the game. In 1989 and 1990, there was no core of good players -- and Steinbrenner wasn't able to attract good free agents.

I looked at transactions that the Yankees made during the late 1970s and early 1980s. Willie McGee was traded away for Bob Sykes. Steinbrenner traded away Fred McGriff, Mike Morgan, Dave Collins, and $400,000 for Dale Murray and Tom Dodd. The Yankees farm system let Doug Drabek go. Yes, the Yankees obtained Rickey Henderson for a few years, but they gave up Stan Javier, Jose Rijo, Eric Plunk, and Jay Howell to do so -- four players, all of whom would remain in the majors for another decade. They gave up Jim Deshaies for a year of Joe Niekro, and Otis Nixon for a season of Toby Harrah. They had drafted B.J. Surhoff, Todd Stottlemyre, and Howard Johnson, but didn't sign any of them.

Steinbrenner did keep Mattingly. Add McGriff, McGee, and Drabek, as well as some of those who had long careers, and the result would have been a solid core for a contender during the 1989-92 seasons. It would have been easier to attract top free agents then. Furthermore, since you produced some good players, you don't have to sign as many free agents. You don't have to spread your budget around too much.

Steinbrenner had the desire to win, a penchant for signing free agents to big contracts, and the ability to pay out the money for those contracts. However, as he had neither the ability to judge talent nor the patience to wait for talent to develop, his meddling ultimately hurt his teams.

Without the sextet that came up through the farm system in the early 1990s, would Steinbrenner have been able to attract enough free agents to win a title? I doubt it. He was able to add to a solid core that other people developed, and turn that core into champions. However, he was never able to build the necessary core himself, and his intervention in team affairs prevented his employees from doing so.

[Ubiquitous]

Without the sextet that came up through the farm system in the early 1990s, would Steinbrenner have been able to attract enough free agents to win a title?

Yankees had money and gobs of it. The disparity between what they could offer and what everybody else could offer only grew over time. And Steinbrenner still had to let these guys play. Derek Jeter, Andy Pettite, Jorge Posada, and Mariano Rivera didn't play a major league game until 1995. Two full seasons after George had come back. The guy who supposedly did not have the patience to wait nor the ability to judge talent kept all of these players around without managing to trade any of them.

As for Bernie he was drafted in 1985 and debuted in 1991. Steinbrenner was suspended in the middle of 1990. Steinbrenner had half a decade to trade him away if he wanted to and then when he came back he still could have done it but he didn't. Is the 6th guy Mendoza? If so he didn't debut until 1996.

Finally we shouldn't kid ourselves about the Boss. Just because he was suspended doesn't mean he wasn't in control. He very much was in control during both periods.


I'm not here to say George was the architect of these great teams but he was the owner of these teams and these teams won a lot of games. Yes they had periods where they walked in the wilderness but all teams have that. George's teams have won and they have lost. I don't think you credit George and his pocketbook for the losses while crediting something else for the wins.

[Ubiquitous]

As for Wrigley he doesn't really merit much consideration. I won't call him an absentee owner but he definitely didn't care about the team as much as other owners would have.

[Ubiquitous]

I double checked because I wanted to make sure it was true and yes George was involved in the negotiations for Catfish Hunter and George was in constant communication with his team throughout the suspension.

George called up Gabe Paul and told him to fire Virdon and get Billy Martin.

Golenbock writes that Gabe Paul said to him that he always had to get the okay from George for player trades.

[Ace Venom]

Votes Cast (12)

The Contributor's Committee has elected former Commissioner Kennesaw Mountain Landis and former manager Joe McCarthy. Here are the results:

1951 Contributor's Election Results (9 Votes Needed for Election)
1) Joe McCarthy - 10 Votes (83.33%), Elected
2) Kennesaw Landis - 9 Votes (75.00%), Elected
3) Tom Connolly - 8 Votes (66.67%)
4) Jack Dunn - 7 Votes (58.33%)
5) J. L. Wilkinson - 6 Votes (50.00%)
t6) Ed Bolden - 5 Votes (41.67%)
t6) Bob Ferguson - 5 Votes (41.67%)
t6) C. I. Taylor - 5 Votes (41.67%)
t9) Cap Anson - 3 Votes (25.00%)
t9) Frank Chance - 3 Votes (25.00%)
t9) Fred Clarke - 3 Votes (25.00%)
t9) Candy Cummings - 3 Votes (25.00%)
t9) Ben Shibe - 3 Votes (25.00%)
t9) Alfred Spink - 3 Votes (25.00%)
t9) J. G. Taylor Spink - 3 Votes (25.00%)
t9) John Ward - 3 Votes (25.00%)
t9) Sol White - 3 Votes (25.00%)
t9) Philip Wrigley - 3 Votes (25.00%)
t19) Frank Bancroft - 2 Votes (16.67%)
t19) Morgan Bulkeley - 2 Votes (16.67%)
t19) O. P. Caylor - 2 Votes (16.67%)
t19) Charles Conlon - 2 Votes (16.67%)
t19) Barney Dreyfuss - 2 Votes (16.67%)
t19) Hughie Jennings - 2 Votes (16.67%)
t19) Ring Lardner - 2 Votes (16.67%)
t19) Tommy McCarthy - 2 Votes (16.67%)
t19) Tim Murnane - 2 Votes (16.67%)
t19) Harry Clay Pulliam - 2 Votes (16.67%)
t19) Henry Grantland Rice - 2 Votes (16.67%)
t19) Chris von der Ahe - 2 Votes (16.67%)
t31) Al Munro Elias - 1 Vote (8.33%)
t31) John B. Foster - 1 Vote (8.33%)
t31) Hugh Fullerton - 1 Vote (8.33%)
t31) William Harridge - 1 Vote (8.33%)
t31) Garry Herrmann - 1 Vote (8.33%)
t31) John Hillerich - 1 Vote (8.33%)
t31) Hiraoka Hiroshi - 1 Vote (8.33%)
t31) A. G. Mills - 1 Vote (8.33%)

[SavoyBG]

Votes Cast (12)

The Contributor's Committee has elected former Commissioner Kennesaw Mountain Landis and former manager Joe McCarthy. Here are the results:

1951 Contributor's Election Results (9 Votes Needed for Election)
1) Joe McCarthy - 10 Votes (83.33%), Elected
2) Kennesaw Landis - 9 Votes (75.00%), Elected
3) Tom Connolly - 8 Votes (66.67%)



I think SABR Matt changed his vote and added Connolly, which would get him in this year. Can you check on this please?

[Ace Venom]

I did a second recount and arrived at the same results. Connolly only received 8 votes.

[SavoyBG]

I did a second recount and arrived at the same results. Connolly only received 8 votes.


Thanks Ace. A shame Connolly didn't go in with Klem as in real life, or even in the next cycle, but maybe now after he got some discussion he will get in next time.