Freakshow
06-13-2009, 07:28 AM
Here is a link to the last election (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90567).
Please note that the runoff election now asks you to rank your top 8. This is due to the expansion of the ballot to 18 players. At least 9, but no more than 15 players, will be added to the list.
======================================
This is the official Roster of Voters who are eligible to vote in this election:
bambambaseball
Brad Harris
dgarza
Freakshow
gman5431
jalbright
jjpm74
leecemark
mwiggins
Sockeye
STLCards2
If anyone else would like to join in and vote, go to the introductory thread (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87311) and apply; you're in if there are no objections from any current voters. Also refer to that thread for a fuller understanding of the rules, especially posts #1, #24 and #28.
======================================
Each voter must do three things:
1) Rank these 18 players in order. As always, players should be ranked based on hall of fame criteria, the sum of all their contributions to the game. Exception: Players whom the hall of fame has (or will be) elected as managers or other contributors (McGraw, Griffith, Torre, Spalding, Rube Foster, etc.) should be ranked only on the contribution from their playing. Active players should be ranked on their value to date, not projecting them to how you think they will end up.:
Rank WARP1 WARP3 Peak WSh Peak
159 Jud Wilson 84.5 7.1 378 29.9
144 Rafael Palmeiro 88.5 96.1 8.1 395 28.6
154 Ross Barnes 37.7 51.0 8.7
119 Cool Papa Bell 64.6 5.1 379 24.8
155 Joe Medwick 66.5 67.0 7.2 312 31.4
173 John Smoltz 112.5 99.5 8.0 288 20.6
163 Minnie Minoso 63.9 54.6 6.4 283 28.4
160 Lou Whitaker 101.4 103.3 7.8 351 25.6
167 Derek Jeter 71.5 74.5 8.5 320 29.6
166 Amos Rusie 52.1 62.5 9.0 293 41.0
168 Joe Start 33.3 40.2 4.3
153 Brooks Robinson 85.9 70.3 6.9 356 27.0
175 Goose Goslin 72.7 61.8 6.7 355 29.4
177 Mike Mussina 112.6 93.9 8.6 270 20.2
135 Richie Ashburn 74.3 76.2 8.1 329 27.8
183 Rube Waddell 46.7 50.6 7.3 240 29.6
162 Jimmy Collins 69.9 68.7 7.8 274 28.4
170 Ted Simmons 68.7 63.5 6.1 315 27.4
2) Next to each name, mark Yes (Y) or No (N) in answer to this question: Can you tolerate this player being ranked among #156-170 on the all-time list?
This is not quite the same as asking “Do you think this player belongs in this group?”; it’s not Yes or No based on your personal rankings. It’s more along the lines “Can you see a good argument for placing this player among the top 170 in history?”
A general guideline I would offer: if a player would be in the top half of your next ballot (#171-179 all-time), you should tolerate him here. Your mileage (and tolerance) may vary. As an aid to this, here are the next nine players that are assured of appearing on the next ballot:
186 Max Carey 76.1 59.1 5.6 351 26.8
187 Don Drysdale 73.8 74.8 7.7 258 25.0
188 Billy Herman 75.8 77.8 7.9 298 28.4
179 Vladimir Guerrero 68.2 68.3 7.4 294 28.6
185 Enos Slaughter 72.4 72.1 7.3 323 28.8
178 Goose Gossage 71.0 48.7 6.2 223 20.8
180 Jeff Kent 79.0 79.9 7.6 339 29.0
182 Sammy Sosa 69.4 69.6 7.7 322 32.0
184 Red Ruffing 88.1 80.7 6.9 322 24.0
3) Rank your top 8 players from this list of upcoming candidates. The top 6 from this runoff will earn a spot on the next ballot (assuming 15 are elected this time):
152 Don Sutton 79.3 73.1 5.5 319 21.4
165 Sam Thompson 61.1 65.5 7.5 236 24.6
169 Joe Gordon 68.7 67.4 8.0 242 27.0
174 Charley Radbourn 36.5 49.0 7.2 391 54.4
176 Rube Foster
181 Rollie Fingers 53.2 32.2 4.2 188 16.2
189 Joe Torre 85.4 80.4 8.4 315 29.2
190 Stan Coveleski 69.5 71.5 8.7 245 28.4
191 Fred McGriff 63.4 65.6 7.4 341 26.4
192 Early Wynn 90.1 76.3 7.4 309 24.0
193 Edgar Martinez 82.5 88.2 8.1 305 27.2
194 Sherry Magee 72.1 59.4 6.4 354 32.4
195 Zack Wheat 77.1 61.8 6.1 380 29.8
196 Lou Boudreau 86.5 82.6 10.0 277 30.4
197 Darrell Evans 65.6 62.1 6.2 363 28.4
198 Orlando Cepeda 67.2 65.1 7.2 310 29.0
199 Carlos Delgado 58.4 61.2 6.5 298 29.4
200 Willie Keeler 76.9 76.9 7.7 333 27.0
201 Ray Brown 74.2 7.2 313 30.6
202 Jim Bunning 75.3 69.7 8.6 257 26.0
203 Al Spalding 18.7 32.0 5.9
204 Ted Lyons 93.9 88.8 8.2 312 24.8
205 Eppa Rixey 80.0 71.3 5.8 315 24.2
206 Andre Dawson 64.9 66.1 7.3 340 26.4========================================
Notes on charts
--The first column is their rank on the 500 Player List, v1.0 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81709&page=99&post=#3939).
--Career totals of WARP1 and WARP3 from Baseball Prospectus. WARP was rescaled in late February, so it cannot be compared to prior WARP numbers.
--Average of Top 5 years in WARP3.
--Career total of Win Shares; unadjusted from the book.
--Average of Top 5 years in unadjusted Win Shares.
--Stats for Negro leaguers are adapted from their MLE’s at Baseballthinkfactory. Bell looks like a Max Carey comp. Jud is a stud, looking similar to Frisch and Dahlen.
--Win shares are not really designed to measure earlier players. The numbers shown for Rusie and Radbourn are likely to overrate them; OTOH, raw WS numbers for Thompson are likely too low.
--Stats for active players do not include the 2009 season.
========================================
It is helpful to me if you only list players by their last name on your ballot (or last name, first initial). If you want to change your ballot some time after it is first posted, make a post in this thread that you have done so. Balloting will continue until everyone has voted, but not more than six days. I will try to get the results up as soon after this as possible.
Discussion of the rankings, players and rules should take place in this thread. The Game is still On, so bring your arguments why you believe a player should be ranked higher or lower than he is on the 500 Player List.
======================================
So far, we've ranked the following players:
1. Babe Ruth, 2. Ty Cobb, 3. Willie Mays, 4. Honus Wagner, 5. Ted Williams, 6. Walter Johnson, 7. Hank Aaron, 8. Barry Bonds, 9. Stan Musial, 10. Mickey Mantle
11. Lou Gehrig, 12. Rogers Hornsby, 13. Tris Speaker, 14. Oscar Charleston, 15. Cy Young, 16. Mike Schmidt, 17. Eddie Collins, 18. Greg Maddux, 19. Josh Gibson, 20. Lefty Grove
21. Frank Robinson, 22. Joe Morgan, 23. Pete Alexander, 24. Roger Clemens, 25. Jimmie Foxx, 26. Joe DiMaggio, 27. Mel Ott, 28. Nap Lajoie, 29. Alex Rodriguez, 30. Johnny Bench
31. Rickey Henderson, 32. Eddie Mathews, 33. Tom Seaver, 34. Satchel Paige, 35. Pop Lloyd, 36. Warren Spahn, 37. Cap Anson, 38. George Brett, 39. Yogi Berra, 40. Christy Mathewson
41. Jackie Robinson, 42. Randy Johnson, 43. Dan Brouthers, 44. Ed Delahanty, 45. Cal Ripken, 46. Ken Griffey, Jr., 47. Kid Nichols, 48. Turkey Stearnes, 49. Arky Vaughan, 50. Carl Yastrzemski
51. Reggie Jackson, 52. Steve Carlton, 53. Smokey Joe Williams, 54. Frank Thomas, 55. Bob Feller, 56. Pete Rose, 57. Charlie Gehringer, 58. Mike Piazza, 59. Al Kaline, 60. Wade Boggs
61. Jeff Bagwell, 62. Sam Crawford, 63. Johnny Mize, 64. Bob Gibson, 65. Robin Yount, 66. Mickey Cochrane, 67. Roberto Clemente, 68. Duke Snider, 69. Tony Gwynn, 70. Rod Carew
71. Pedro Martinez, 72. Craig Biggio, 73. Carl Hubbell, 74. Buck Leonard, 75. Roy Campanella, 76. Hank Greenberg, 77. Frankie Frisch, 78. Harmon Killebrew, 79. Buck Ewing, 80. Paul Waner
81. Willie McCovey, 82. Roger Connor, 83. Martin Dihigo, 84. Eddie Murray, 85. Ernie Banks, 86. Robin Roberts, 87. Nolan Ryan, 88. Frank Baker, 89. King Kelly, 90. Gary Carter
91. Cristobal Torriente, 92. Billy Hamilton, 93. Gaylord Perry, 94. Al Simmons, 95. Chipper Jones, 96. Sandy Koufax, 97. Tim Raines, 98. Willie Stargell, 99. Phil Niekro, 100. Ryne Sandberg
101. Harry Heilmann, 102. Ed Walsh, 103. Ron Santo, 104. Mule Suttles, 105. Jesse Burkett, 106. Carlton Fisk, 107. Albert Pujols, 108. George Davis, 109. Roberto Alomar, 110. Eddie Plank
111. Jim Palmer, 112. Barry Larkin, 113. Bert Blyleven, 114. Joe Cronin, 115. Tim Keefe, 116. Mark McGwire, 117. John Clarkson, 118. Dick Allen, 119. Bullet Joe Rogan, 120. Jim O'Rourke
121. Paul Molitor, 122. Juan Marichal, 123. Whitey Ford, 124. George Wright, 125. Ivan Rodriguez, 126. Bill Dickey, 127. Dave Winfield, 128. Mordecai Brown, 129. Luke Appling, 130. Fergie Jenkins
131. Tom Glavine, 132. Gabby Hartnett, 133. Dazzy Vance, 134. Bill Dahlen, 135. Deacon White, 136. Manny Ramirez, 137. Gary Sheffield, 138. Mariano Rivera, 139. Paul Hines, 140. Joe Jackson
141. Alan Trammell, 142. Fred Clarke, 143. Billy Williams, 144. Larry Doby, 145. Ozzie Smith, 146. Bobby Grich, 147. Willie Wells, 148. Hal Newhouser, 149. Dennis Eckersley, 150. Louis Santop
151. Kirby Puckett, 152. Jim Thome, 153. Hoyt Wilhelm, 154. Curt Schilling, 155. Pee Wee Reese
Please note that the runoff election now asks you to rank your top 8. This is due to the expansion of the ballot to 18 players. At least 9, but no more than 15 players, will be added to the list.
======================================
This is the official Roster of Voters who are eligible to vote in this election:
bambambaseball
Brad Harris
dgarza
Freakshow
gman5431
jalbright
jjpm74
leecemark
mwiggins
Sockeye
STLCards2
If anyone else would like to join in and vote, go to the introductory thread (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87311) and apply; you're in if there are no objections from any current voters. Also refer to that thread for a fuller understanding of the rules, especially posts #1, #24 and #28.
======================================
Each voter must do three things:
1) Rank these 18 players in order. As always, players should be ranked based on hall of fame criteria, the sum of all their contributions to the game. Exception: Players whom the hall of fame has (or will be) elected as managers or other contributors (McGraw, Griffith, Torre, Spalding, Rube Foster, etc.) should be ranked only on the contribution from their playing. Active players should be ranked on their value to date, not projecting them to how you think they will end up.:
Rank WARP1 WARP3 Peak WSh Peak
159 Jud Wilson 84.5 7.1 378 29.9
144 Rafael Palmeiro 88.5 96.1 8.1 395 28.6
154 Ross Barnes 37.7 51.0 8.7
119 Cool Papa Bell 64.6 5.1 379 24.8
155 Joe Medwick 66.5 67.0 7.2 312 31.4
173 John Smoltz 112.5 99.5 8.0 288 20.6
163 Minnie Minoso 63.9 54.6 6.4 283 28.4
160 Lou Whitaker 101.4 103.3 7.8 351 25.6
167 Derek Jeter 71.5 74.5 8.5 320 29.6
166 Amos Rusie 52.1 62.5 9.0 293 41.0
168 Joe Start 33.3 40.2 4.3
153 Brooks Robinson 85.9 70.3 6.9 356 27.0
175 Goose Goslin 72.7 61.8 6.7 355 29.4
177 Mike Mussina 112.6 93.9 8.6 270 20.2
135 Richie Ashburn 74.3 76.2 8.1 329 27.8
183 Rube Waddell 46.7 50.6 7.3 240 29.6
162 Jimmy Collins 69.9 68.7 7.8 274 28.4
170 Ted Simmons 68.7 63.5 6.1 315 27.4
2) Next to each name, mark Yes (Y) or No (N) in answer to this question: Can you tolerate this player being ranked among #156-170 on the all-time list?
This is not quite the same as asking “Do you think this player belongs in this group?”; it’s not Yes or No based on your personal rankings. It’s more along the lines “Can you see a good argument for placing this player among the top 170 in history?”
A general guideline I would offer: if a player would be in the top half of your next ballot (#171-179 all-time), you should tolerate him here. Your mileage (and tolerance) may vary. As an aid to this, here are the next nine players that are assured of appearing on the next ballot:
186 Max Carey 76.1 59.1 5.6 351 26.8
187 Don Drysdale 73.8 74.8 7.7 258 25.0
188 Billy Herman 75.8 77.8 7.9 298 28.4
179 Vladimir Guerrero 68.2 68.3 7.4 294 28.6
185 Enos Slaughter 72.4 72.1 7.3 323 28.8
178 Goose Gossage 71.0 48.7 6.2 223 20.8
180 Jeff Kent 79.0 79.9 7.6 339 29.0
182 Sammy Sosa 69.4 69.6 7.7 322 32.0
184 Red Ruffing 88.1 80.7 6.9 322 24.0
3) Rank your top 8 players from this list of upcoming candidates. The top 6 from this runoff will earn a spot on the next ballot (assuming 15 are elected this time):
152 Don Sutton 79.3 73.1 5.5 319 21.4
165 Sam Thompson 61.1 65.5 7.5 236 24.6
169 Joe Gordon 68.7 67.4 8.0 242 27.0
174 Charley Radbourn 36.5 49.0 7.2 391 54.4
176 Rube Foster
181 Rollie Fingers 53.2 32.2 4.2 188 16.2
189 Joe Torre 85.4 80.4 8.4 315 29.2
190 Stan Coveleski 69.5 71.5 8.7 245 28.4
191 Fred McGriff 63.4 65.6 7.4 341 26.4
192 Early Wynn 90.1 76.3 7.4 309 24.0
193 Edgar Martinez 82.5 88.2 8.1 305 27.2
194 Sherry Magee 72.1 59.4 6.4 354 32.4
195 Zack Wheat 77.1 61.8 6.1 380 29.8
196 Lou Boudreau 86.5 82.6 10.0 277 30.4
197 Darrell Evans 65.6 62.1 6.2 363 28.4
198 Orlando Cepeda 67.2 65.1 7.2 310 29.0
199 Carlos Delgado 58.4 61.2 6.5 298 29.4
200 Willie Keeler 76.9 76.9 7.7 333 27.0
201 Ray Brown 74.2 7.2 313 30.6
202 Jim Bunning 75.3 69.7 8.6 257 26.0
203 Al Spalding 18.7 32.0 5.9
204 Ted Lyons 93.9 88.8 8.2 312 24.8
205 Eppa Rixey 80.0 71.3 5.8 315 24.2
206 Andre Dawson 64.9 66.1 7.3 340 26.4========================================
Notes on charts
--The first column is their rank on the 500 Player List, v1.0 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81709&page=99&post=#3939).
--Career totals of WARP1 and WARP3 from Baseball Prospectus. WARP was rescaled in late February, so it cannot be compared to prior WARP numbers.
--Average of Top 5 years in WARP3.
--Career total of Win Shares; unadjusted from the book.
--Average of Top 5 years in unadjusted Win Shares.
--Stats for Negro leaguers are adapted from their MLE’s at Baseballthinkfactory. Bell looks like a Max Carey comp. Jud is a stud, looking similar to Frisch and Dahlen.
--Win shares are not really designed to measure earlier players. The numbers shown for Rusie and Radbourn are likely to overrate them; OTOH, raw WS numbers for Thompson are likely too low.
--Stats for active players do not include the 2009 season.
========================================
It is helpful to me if you only list players by their last name on your ballot (or last name, first initial). If you want to change your ballot some time after it is first posted, make a post in this thread that you have done so. Balloting will continue until everyone has voted, but not more than six days. I will try to get the results up as soon after this as possible.
Discussion of the rankings, players and rules should take place in this thread. The Game is still On, so bring your arguments why you believe a player should be ranked higher or lower than he is on the 500 Player List.
======================================
So far, we've ranked the following players:
1. Babe Ruth, 2. Ty Cobb, 3. Willie Mays, 4. Honus Wagner, 5. Ted Williams, 6. Walter Johnson, 7. Hank Aaron, 8. Barry Bonds, 9. Stan Musial, 10. Mickey Mantle
11. Lou Gehrig, 12. Rogers Hornsby, 13. Tris Speaker, 14. Oscar Charleston, 15. Cy Young, 16. Mike Schmidt, 17. Eddie Collins, 18. Greg Maddux, 19. Josh Gibson, 20. Lefty Grove
21. Frank Robinson, 22. Joe Morgan, 23. Pete Alexander, 24. Roger Clemens, 25. Jimmie Foxx, 26. Joe DiMaggio, 27. Mel Ott, 28. Nap Lajoie, 29. Alex Rodriguez, 30. Johnny Bench
31. Rickey Henderson, 32. Eddie Mathews, 33. Tom Seaver, 34. Satchel Paige, 35. Pop Lloyd, 36. Warren Spahn, 37. Cap Anson, 38. George Brett, 39. Yogi Berra, 40. Christy Mathewson
41. Jackie Robinson, 42. Randy Johnson, 43. Dan Brouthers, 44. Ed Delahanty, 45. Cal Ripken, 46. Ken Griffey, Jr., 47. Kid Nichols, 48. Turkey Stearnes, 49. Arky Vaughan, 50. Carl Yastrzemski
51. Reggie Jackson, 52. Steve Carlton, 53. Smokey Joe Williams, 54. Frank Thomas, 55. Bob Feller, 56. Pete Rose, 57. Charlie Gehringer, 58. Mike Piazza, 59. Al Kaline, 60. Wade Boggs
61. Jeff Bagwell, 62. Sam Crawford, 63. Johnny Mize, 64. Bob Gibson, 65. Robin Yount, 66. Mickey Cochrane, 67. Roberto Clemente, 68. Duke Snider, 69. Tony Gwynn, 70. Rod Carew
71. Pedro Martinez, 72. Craig Biggio, 73. Carl Hubbell, 74. Buck Leonard, 75. Roy Campanella, 76. Hank Greenberg, 77. Frankie Frisch, 78. Harmon Killebrew, 79. Buck Ewing, 80. Paul Waner
81. Willie McCovey, 82. Roger Connor, 83. Martin Dihigo, 84. Eddie Murray, 85. Ernie Banks, 86. Robin Roberts, 87. Nolan Ryan, 88. Frank Baker, 89. King Kelly, 90. Gary Carter
91. Cristobal Torriente, 92. Billy Hamilton, 93. Gaylord Perry, 94. Al Simmons, 95. Chipper Jones, 96. Sandy Koufax, 97. Tim Raines, 98. Willie Stargell, 99. Phil Niekro, 100. Ryne Sandberg
101. Harry Heilmann, 102. Ed Walsh, 103. Ron Santo, 104. Mule Suttles, 105. Jesse Burkett, 106. Carlton Fisk, 107. Albert Pujols, 108. George Davis, 109. Roberto Alomar, 110. Eddie Plank
111. Jim Palmer, 112. Barry Larkin, 113. Bert Blyleven, 114. Joe Cronin, 115. Tim Keefe, 116. Mark McGwire, 117. John Clarkson, 118. Dick Allen, 119. Bullet Joe Rogan, 120. Jim O'Rourke
121. Paul Molitor, 122. Juan Marichal, 123. Whitey Ford, 124. George Wright, 125. Ivan Rodriguez, 126. Bill Dickey, 127. Dave Winfield, 128. Mordecai Brown, 129. Luke Appling, 130. Fergie Jenkins
131. Tom Glavine, 132. Gabby Hartnett, 133. Dazzy Vance, 134. Bill Dahlen, 135. Deacon White, 136. Manny Ramirez, 137. Gary Sheffield, 138. Mariano Rivera, 139. Paul Hines, 140. Joe Jackson
141. Alan Trammell, 142. Fred Clarke, 143. Billy Williams, 144. Larry Doby, 145. Ozzie Smith, 146. Bobby Grich, 147. Willie Wells, 148. Hal Newhouser, 149. Dennis Eckersley, 150. Louis Santop
151. Kirby Puckett, 152. Jim Thome, 153. Hoyt Wilhelm, 154. Curt Schilling, 155. Pee Wee Reese