Hall of Fame Purgatory – Election #5

[Freakshow]

Here is a link to the previous election (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90446).
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This is the official Roster of Voters who are eligible to vote in this election:

Ace Venom
AstrosFan
Brad Harris
Captain Cold Nose
Cougar
Domenic
Fielding Marshall
Freakshow
gman5431
jalbright
jjpm74
Paul Wendt
PVNICK
Sockeye
STLCards2
Tiboreau
Windy City Fan

If anyone else would like to join in and vote, go to the introductory thread (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89253) and apply; you're in if there are no objections from any current voters. Also refer to that thread for a fuller understanding of the rules. Another name has been dropped from the roster of voters: RubeBaker. He disappeared after the first election.
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Each voter must do three things:

1) Rank these 15 players in order. In this project, you are a voter for the hall of fame, so players should be ranked based on hall of fame criteria, the sum of all their contributions to the game. If you feel a player is more appropriately elected to the HOF as a contributor, you may disregard his non-playing contributions in your analysis.
v1.0 Election #5 AWS Peak WARP3 Peak
260 Albert Belle 256 30.5 | 61.9 8.14
263 Bob Caruthers 241 32.6 | 42.1 6.00
274 Larry Doyle 309 28.9 | 41.7 4.59
326 Charlie Keller 276 32.5 | 67.6 8.23
268 Tommy Leach 352 29.4 | 60.0 5.92
296 Carl Mays 275 29.2 | 55.3 6.33
265 Dobie Moore 226 28.7 |
240 Dave Parker 331 29.6 | 58.5 6.96
305 Lip Pike 185 27.4 | 28.7 4.99
301 Willie Randolph 318 23.7 | 70.7 6.16
309 Jimmy Sheckard 372 31.7 | 63.9 6.50
168 Joe Start 295 26.2 | 40.2 4.06
211 Ezra Sutton 340 28.3 | 43.6 5.23
288 George Van Haltren 377 28.4 | 52.5 5.21
344 Bucky Walters 264 27.9 | 73.6 8.07
A maximum of ten players will be “elected” at one time.

The pink elephant in the room is, of course, steroids. I would advise voters to treat the PED-tainted candidates with a similar degree of sanctions that MLB has placed upon them. IOW, if a candidate has never been penalized by MLB for PED use it is inappropriate for voters to penalize him in their analysis for ranking them.

I don’t want this thread to become bogged down in yet another PED discussion, so persons who want to debate this should take it to one of the many threads at BBF dealing with this issue. I’m simply requesting voters to avoid going down the Rabbit Hole of suspicion and rumor and to base their analysis on what is known – on the evidence. Let our group be a shining example to the BBWAA as to a rational approach to candidates from the “steroids era”.

2) For each candidate, signify Yes (Y) or No (N) in answer to this question: Should this player be in the Hall of Fame?

We all have our own idea of how many people should be in the Hall of Fame. For this project, I’m asking voters to use a standard of value that is similar to that established by the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum in Cooperstown, NY. They have now enshrined 231 players from MLB and Negro leagues. This gives us the definition of “Hall of Famer” now in use by the Hall: one of the top 231 players from MLB or Negro leagues who retired in 2003 or earlier. In practice, many of us employ a “tolerance zone”, extending our range of Yeses somewhat beyond our personal 231 player queue, thus acknowledging that a Gray Area exists.

From everything I have seen, there are at least 35 candidates for the HOF, and perhaps more than 60, who have a good case for being ranked as one of the top 231 eligible players outside the Hall. Thus, for this election I would still expect most ballots to have more than a few Yeses.

A player will be considered “elected” to the Hall of Purgatory if he finishes in the top ten, and a majority of voters say Yes.

3) Rank your top 7 players from this list of 20 upcoming candidates. The top players from this runoff will replace players who drop off the ballot:
v1.0 Runoff for next ballot AWS Peak WARP3 Peak
293 Bobby Bonds 305 29.1 | 65.2 7.23
250 Pete Browning 267 29.2 | 48.6 6.09
304 Cupid Childs 277 29.9 | 58.4 7.12
321 Wilbur Cooper 285 28.3 | 50.8 5.75
282 Bob Elliott 294 26.8 | 66.3 7.22
333 Gil Hodges 276 26.3 | 56.0 6.11
316 Tommy John 295 18.5 | 69.8 5.89
348 Charley Jones 312 31.3 | 55.1 6.78
266 Cal McVey 238 32.3 | 29.7 4.91
312 Tony Mullane 313 32.3 | 45.0 5.47
278 Alejandro Oms 397 28.4 | 65.2 5.94
308 Billy Pierce 259 23.0 | 60.7 6.34
281 Dan Quisenberry 163 21.5 | 31.1 4.49
330 Dick Redding 285 28.1 |
335 Jimmy Ryan 369 29.8 | 58.7 5.39
323 Bret Saberhagen 199 21.0 | 70.4 7.94
283 Reggie Smith 337 26.8 | 65.1 5.84
280 Vern Stephens 269 27.4 | 50.5 5.51
310 Dave Stieb 217 22.7 | 57.8 6.42
338 Luis Tiant 258 23.0 | 67.9 6.29
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Notes on charts
--The first column is their rank on the 500 Player List, v1.0 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81709&page=99&post=#3939).
--AWS = career Adjusted Win Shares. Increased for war credit (Keller, Redding), race credit, short seasons, blackballed (Jones, Mullane), Japan (Smith). Decreased for fledgling (Browning, Mullane, Jones) and war-depleted (Mays, Walters, Doyle, Cooper, Elliott, Stephens) leagues. Pre-1893 pitching win shares reduced by 50% (Caruthers, Mullane, GVH).
--Peak = Weighted Average of Top 7 years in Adjusted Win Shares.
--Career total of WARP3 from Baseball Prospectus. Increased for war credit, race credit, Japnese play and being blackballed.
--Peak = Weighted Average of Top 7 years in WARP3.
--Data for Negro leaguers (Moore, Oms, Redding) are adapted from their MLE’s at Baseballthinkfactory (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/the_negro_league_home_page).
--Players who played primarily before 1893 (Browning, Caruthers, Start, Sutton, McVey, Mullane, Pike, Jones) are increased to a 152-game basis for AWS.
--AWS for NA (1871-75) are estimated from WARP3 numbers.
--Credit for pre-NA play (before 1871) was not calculated for Pike, Start and McVey.
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A Few Words About the Queue
The queue of candidates isn’t your list or mine. In short, it’s a consensus built from ruminating over this issue for 30-some years. Yes, numbers are paramount – hey, I’m an accountant. However, I’ve incorporated every reasonable ranking system I’ve run across. The Ultimate Quest for Candidates (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=68815) project was very influential. I also consider their “popularity” as a HOF candidate. I look for players who do well both by the numbers and by opinion. You tend to see the same names popping up over and over, and I’ve tried to put these guys at the top. However, there are always those divisive candidates.

Look at our earliest candidates, Joe Start and Lip Pike. Both began playing at the game’s highest level long before 1871; each is missing more than a third of their career in the official record and nearly half of their prime. We can get a quick and dirty estimate of their career value by multiplying their totals by 1.5. This method shows Start with 443 Adjusted Win shares and 60.3 WARP3. Pike is boosted to 278 AWS and 43.1 WARP3. These are in spite of Win Shares underallocation to 19th century defense and WARP3’s severe timeline discount on 1870’s players. Obviously, the game they excelled at was very different from the baseball that we know. In addition, pro baseball had only recently begun to spread beyond the northeast region of the country. Bill James quickly dismisses them for these reasons.

Well, it’s the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, right? If that last word is going to be meaningful, it’s incumbent upon the Hall to identify and honor the greatest players from every era of the game’s history. At present, we see only scant representation from the first twenty years of professional play (1869-1888).

Average no. Hall of Famers playing semi-regular 1871-1887: 8.9 (median: 7 / range: 5-15)
Average no. Hall of Famers playing semi-regular 1888-1904: 24.4 (median: 24 / range: 19-29)

The Hall of Fame should enshrine another 10-15 players from the 1870s-80s era.
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It is helpful to me if you only list players by their last name on your ballot (or last name, first initial). If you want to change your ballot some time after it is first posted, make a post in this thread that you have done so. Balloting will continue until everyone has voted, but not more than seven days. I will try to get the results up as soon after this as possible.

Discussion of the rankings, players, rules, methodologies, etc. should take place in this thread. Some of these candidates you may never have seriously considered for the Hall, so I would expect voters to engage in discussion and be open to persuasion regarding these players. Try to imagine this as a final hearing on these candidates, to accept or reject them forever, and seriously consider each player’s qualifications. Go beyond the numbers and look for contributions in the minor leagues or non-playing or anecdotal. Consider whether a player deserves a bonus for playing a position, or in an era, that’s underrepresented in the Hall’s membership.
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So far, these players have been named to dwell in the Hall of Purgatory:
1. Ron Santo, 2. Bert Blyleven, 3. Tim Raines, 4. Roberto Alomar, 5. Barry Larkin, 6. Bill Dahlen, 7. Dick Allen, 8. Deacon White, 9. Alan Trammell, 10. Bobby Grich
11. Paul Hines, 12. Minnie Minoso, 13. Sherry Magee, 14. Ted Simmons, 15. Mark McGwire, 16. Lou Whitaker, 17. Joe Torre, 18. Edgar Martinez, 19. Darrell Evans, 20. Stan Hack
21. George Gore, 22. Will Clark, 23. Heinie Groh, 24. Wes Ferrell, 25. Ross Barnes, 26. Andre Dawson, 27. Jack Glasscock, 28. Dwight Evans, 29. Homerun Johnson, 30. Fred McGriff
31. John Beckwith, 32. Charlie Bennett, 33. Harry Stovey, 34. Hardy Richardson, 35. Jimmy Wynn, 36. Keith Hernandez, 37. Ken Boyer, 38. Bill Freehan, 39. Graig Nettles, 40. Dale Murphy

[Freakshow]

Here are the 15 candidates on the ballot ranked by career and by peak.
Ranked by Career Value Ranked by Peak Value
AWS WARP3 AWS WARP3
SHECKARD 372 63.9 KELLER 32.5 8.23
RANDOLPH 318 70.7 Belle 30.5 8.14
Leach T 352 60.0 Walters 27.9 8.07
Walters 264 73.6 Parker D 29.6 6.96
Parker D 331 58.5 SHECKARD 31.7 6.50
Vanhaltren 377 52.5 CARUTHERS 32.6 6.00
KELLER 276 67.6 Mays C 29.2 6.33
Belle 256 61.9 Leach T 29.4 5.92
Mays C 275 55.3 MOORE D 28.7
SUTTON E 340 43.6 RANDOLPH 23.7 6.16
Doyle L 309 41.7 SUTTON E 28.3 5.23
START 295 40.2 Vanhaltren 28.4 5.21
CARUTHERS 241 42.1 PIKE L 27.4 4.99
MOORE D 226 Doyle L 28.9 4.59
PIKE L 185 28.7 START 26.2 4.06

[Freakshow]

Here are the 20 candidates in the runoff ranked by career and by peak.
Ranked by Career Value Ranked by Peak Value
AWS WARP3 AWS WARP3
OMS 397 65.2 CHILDS 29.9 7.12
SMITH R 337 65.1 JONES CH 31.3 6.78
Ryan J 369 58.7 Bonds Bo 29.1 7.23
John 295 69.8 Elliott 26.8 7.22
Bonds Bo 305 65.2 BROWNING 29.2 6.09
Elliott 294 66.3 Mullane 32.3 5.47
Tiant 258 67.9 OMS 28.4 5.94
JONES CH 312 55.1 Cooper Wi 28.3 5.75
Redding 285 Redding 28.1
CHILDS 277 58.4 Hodges 26.3 6.11
PIERCE 259 60.7 SABERHAGEN 21.0 7.94
Hodges 276 56.0 Ryan J 29.8 5.39
Cooper Wi 285 50.8 SMITH R 26.8 5.84
Stephens 269 50.5 MCVEY 32.3 4.91
Mullane 313 45.0 Stephens 27.4 5.51
SABERHAGEN 199 70.4 PIERCE 23.0 6.34
BROWNING 267 48.6 STIEB 22.7 6.42
STIEB 217 57.8 Tiant 23.0 6.29
MCVEY 238 29.7 John 18.5 5.89
Quisenberry 163 31.1 Quisenberry 21.5 4.49

[PVNICK]

Here goes

1. Sheckard
2. Van Haltren
3. Walters
4. Randolph
5. Ezra Sutton
6. Dave Parker
7. Leach
8. Caruthers
9. Larry Doyle
10. Belle
11. Keller
12. Carl Mays
13. Start
14. Pike - no
15. Dobie Moore - no

1. Ohms
2. Bobby Bonds
3. Elliott
4. Charly Jones
5. Childs
6. Reggie Smith
7. Jimmy Ryan

[jjpm74]

Ranked Players:

1. Joe Start Y
2. Tommy Leach Y
3. Ezra Sutton Y
4. Lip Pike Y
5. Bob Caruthers Y
6. George Van Haltren Y (barely)
7. Willie Randolph N
8. Dobie Moore N
9. Larry Doyle N
10. Jimmy Scheckard N
11. Charlie Keller N
12. Carl Mays N
13. Albert Belle N
14. Bucky Walters N
15. Dave Parker N

Runoff:

1. Dan Quisenberry
2. Alejandro Oms
3. Wilbur Cooper
4. Charley Jones
5. Jimmy Ryan
6. Bob Elliott
7. Cal McVey

[jalbright]

1. Moore
2. Leach
3. Start
4. Sutton
5. Parker
6. Keller
7. Mays
8. Doyle
9. Van Haltren--this far down get yes votes
=====================
10. Walters--N
11. Randolph--N
12. Belle--N
13. Caruthers--N
14. Sheckard--N
15. Pike--N

Runoff
1. Stephens
2. Cooper
3. Quisenberry
4. Oms
5. Childs
6. Redding
7. Mullane

[Tiboreau]

1. Y Charlie Keller
2. Y Joe Start
3. Y Jimmy Sheckard
4. Y Ezra Sutton
5. Y Lip Pike
6. Y Bucky Walters
7. Y Dobie Moore
8. Y Albert Belle
9. Y Tommy Leach
10. N Willie Randolph
11. N Bob Caruthers
12. N Carl Mays
13. N George Van Haltren
14. N Dave Parker
15. N Larry Doyle

1. Bret Saberhagen
2. Alejandro Oms
3. Cal McVey
4. Dave Stieb
5. Bobby Bonds
6. Reggie Smith
7. Billy Pierce

[Cougar]

Is it just me, or are these getting harder?

1. Parker, Dave - YES

2. Caruthers, Bob - YES

3. Doyle, Larry - YES

4. Belle, Albert - YES

5. Mays, Carl - YES

6. Van Haltren, George - YES

7. Randolph, Willie - YES

8. Leach, Tommy - YES

9. Sheckard, Jimmy - YES

10. Walters, Bucky - YES

11. Pike, Lip - YES

12. Sutton, Ezra - YES

13. Start, Joe - YES

14. Moore, Dobie - YES

15. Keller, Charlie - NO

[Sockeye]

Ranked Players

1, Albert Belle Y
2. Bucky Walters N
3. Dave Parker N
4. Jimmy Sheckard N
5. George Van Haltren N
6. Charlie Keller N
7. Willie Randolph N
8. Carl Mays N
9. Larry Doyle N
10. Tommy Leach N
11. Bob Caruthers N
12. Ezra Sutton N
13. Lip Pike N
14. Joe Start N
15. Dobie Moore N

Run Off

1. Reggie Smith
2. Tommy John
3. Luis Tiant
4. Bobby Bonds
5. Bob Elliott
6. Billy Pierce
7. Pete Browning

[jalbright]

Is it just me, or are these getting harder?


As you near the in/out line, the players have more common talents and are thus harder to differentiate. IMHO, we're definitely in that area now, and that's what we're dealing with. Of course, soon the "yes-no" call will get easier.

[Paul Wendt]

Is it just me, or are these getting harder?
not just you, these are getting harder

FS, just put me down for Cougar's ballot upside down

[Cougar]

not just you, these are getting harder

FS, just put me down for Cougar's ballot upside down

You're kidding, right? You're canceling me out??!!

[Freakshow]

FS, just put me down for Cougar's ballot upside downYeah, I think I know what you mean. In any case, you'll have to actually list a ballot of your own before I count it in the tally.:atthepc

[Tiboreau]

You're kidding, right? You're canceling me out??!!

I think "cancelling" may have already occurred. . . .

[Cougar]

I am not remotely amused.

[Tiboreau]

I am not remotely amused.

Look at your ballot. Now look at my ballot . . . upside down.

[Cougar]

It's close, but far from mirror images. In any case, I didn't do it on purpose.

Anyway,

1. Hodges, Gil

2. John, Tommy

3. Tiant, Luis

4. Elliott, Bob

5. Pierce, Billy

6. Cooper, Wilbur

7. Ryan, Jimmy

[Paul Wendt]

1. McVey
2. Jones
3. Childs
4. Pierce
5. Saberhagen
6. Tiant
7. Redding

[Freakshow]

1 START
2 SHECKARD
3 SUTTON E
4 KELLER
5 Leach T
6 CARUTHERS
7 MOORE D
8 PIKE L
9 Belle
10 Walters Yes to here
11 Vanhaltren No from here
12 Parker D
13 Doyle L
14 RANDOLPH
15 Mays C

Runoff
1 Childs
2 McVey
3 Jones C
4 Oms
5 Pierce
6 Mullane
7 Bonds

[Cougar]

Do the CAPS mean anything?

[Freakshow]

Do the CAPS mean anything?I copied the names from a spreadsheet that has members of the Hall of Merit in CAPS. I was a member of that electorate from its inception and have a great deal of respect for that group's findings. The CAPS are also seen in the Career and Peak leaders lists.

[gman5431]

1 Dave Parker
2 Albert Belle
3 Willie Randolph
4 Bucky Walters
5 Tommy Leach
6 Carl Mays
7 Charlie Keller
8 Joe Start
9 Ezra Sutton
10 Bob Caruthers
11 Larry Doyle
12 George Van Haltren
13 Dobie Moore
14 Lip Pike
15 Jimmy Sheckard

No to ALL

G Rizzle

[gman5431]

1 Dave Stieb
2 Gil Hodges
3 Luis Tiant
4 Alejandro Oms
5 Wilbur Cooper
6 Tommy John
7 Vern Stephens

G Man

[Freakshow]

Contemplating who to add to the next runoff election. I'm planning to add ten candidates, no matter how many we elect this time. Nine names have bubbled to the surface thus far:

Wally Berger
Tommy Bridges
Gavvy Cravath
Bob Johnson
Jim Kaat
Dick Lundy
Tony Oliva
Lee Smith
Quincy Trouppe

Also consider pitchers Newcombe, Shocker, McCormick, Morris; catchers Munson, Howard, Parrish, Schang; first basemen Mattingly, Vernon, Cash, Garvey; third basemen Rosen, Ventura, Bando; shortstops Concepcion, Long, Pesky; OF Staub, Cedeno, Howard. And anyone else you feel like suggesting.

[Cougar]

Contemplating who to add to the next runoff election. I'm planning to add ten candidates, no matter how many we elect this time. Nine names have bubbled to the surface thus far:

Wally Berger
Tommy Bridges
Gavvy Cravath
Bob Johnson
Jim Kaat
Dick Lundy
Tony Oliva
Lee Smith
Quincy Trouppe

Also consider pitchers Newcombe, Shocker, McCormick, Morris; catchers Munson, Howard, Parrish, Schang; first basemen Mattingly, Vernon, Cash, Garvey; third basemen Rosen, Ventura, Bando; shortstops Concepcion, Long, Pesky; OF Staub, Cedeno, Howard. And anyone else you feel like suggesting.

I'll comment organized roughly by position:

Kaat is about as good as John; Smith is about as good as Quiz. I like Shocker better than Bridges, Newk better than Shocker, and Morris better than Newk. And Ron Guidry is as good or better than any of these.

McCormick as a 19th century guy is a different animal, but he might be the best 19th century pitcher that hasn't come up yet. Other candidates are Tommy Bond (I'd place him first) or Bobby Mathews.

You've got the next four MLB catchers just about exactly right; my favorite is Ellie Howard because of his trailblazing (first black Yankee). I don't know enough about Trouppe to judge.

Vernon and Mattingly are the best 1b still out there; Garvey and Cash being a little lower on my list; not much

No second basemen mentioned: How about Buddy Myer, Del Pratt, or Frank White?

Rosen's the best 3b still out there, unless you're a Buddy Bell or Lave Cross man; talk about a peak vs. career contrast! Ventura is probably the next best after those.

Don't know enough about Dick Lundy at SS; Concepcion is the best MLB SS available, but Bert Campaneris is a virtual clone in terms of value. Tony Fernandez is right there as well.

Bob Johnson is the best LF still out there, unless you're a Lefty O'Doul man like me...on lifetime contributions he should be in; throw in the #4 all time lifetime BA and he should be a lock.

Wally Berger is a worthy choice, although CF is chock full of borderline cases that are hard to rank because they have such disparate skill sets. My top CF would be Vada Pinson, with Al Oliver close behind; my quirky pick is Cy Williams.

Oliva's absence (so far) was sticking out like a sore thumb to me, and I'm also a big Cravath guy; Staub is right behind them on my queue.

Sometime Harold Baines, with his accumulated career totals, has to enter the discussion.

[jjpm74]

Take out Cravath and L. Smith and put in Mattingly and Munson. Cravath's career in the majors was very short and his case relies on a lot of speculation. Lee Smith was just a compiler. There are a dozen relievers I'd take over him as a HOFer. Don Mattingly had a short, but dominant HOF type peak. His career was cut short by back injuries. Thurman Munson's career was cut short by an untimely death. While he was far from a lock for the HOF at the time, he was on a pace to possibly end his career with enough padding to make the HOF. Whether you support him or not, Thurman Munson is unarguably one of only a small handful of catchers not in the HOF who regularly shows up in the discussion with his share of supporters.

I'd also take Rusty Staub over Tony Oliva, but I'll leave his cause to someone else. ;)

[jalbright]

I don't know enough about Trouppe to judge.
......
Don't know enough about Dick Lundy at SS;

I'll deal with Trouppe in this post, Lundy in my next one.

Quincy Trouppe

He had a nice long career as a catcher in the Negro Leagues, over 20 years. The BBTF guys figure him at around 260+ career win shares, 78 in his best three seasons and 105 in his best five consecutive. They think he would have been a 270/370/420 hitter, good for a 119 OPS+, in about 7200 AB. Given that Trouppe had a good defensive rep, I think the best synopsis of his case is, if Bill Freehan belongs, so does he. If you draw the line above Freehan, then the case is more questionable.

AG2004's take on Trouppe is instructive, I think:
I realized that seven All-Star-Type seasons (20+ win shares) was the general cut-off area for post-1925 catchers and the BBFHOF; for the other field positions, eight was the general cut-off. Hartnett, who is a consensus member of the BBFHOF, has seven such seasons. Ivan Rodriguez, who most people here would consider worthy of Cooperstown, has also recorded seven such seasons. Since catching, more than playing any other of the eight "everyday" positions, makes high demands on the human body, and since there seems to be a limit on how often a human can catch, putting the cutoff a little lower here makes sense.

For this reason, the de facto cutoffs that the BBFHOF has established for win shares are lower at catcher than at the other positions. Again, since there are physical limits to how often a human being can catch, I don't have a problem with this. Since Trouppe has reached these standards, he belongs in the BBFHOF.

Case to Consider: TROUPPE, Quincy

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

No.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

Between late 1944 and 1947, Trouppe was considered the star of the Cleveland Buckeyes. While the team was mediocre in 1946, it did win the pennant in 1945 and 1947.

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

Trouppe’s MLEs project him with as many or more win shares than the top MLB catchers in 1939, 1941, 1942, 1946, 1947, and 1948, and more win shares than the top AL catcher in 1940 and 1943.

However, only in 1947 and 1948 was Trouppe the best catcher in baseball. Until 1946, Josh Gibson was far and away the best catcher in the game, and Trouppe would have looked poor by comparison. (Next to Gibson’s MLEs, all other catchers look poor by comparison.)

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

Cleveland won the NAL pennants in 1945 and 1947. In the 1945 Negro World Series, Trouppe batted over .400 as the Buckeyes swept the favored Homestead Grays.

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

Trouppe had an All-Star-type season in 1948, at the age of 35, and caught for a few years more. Due to the color line, he didn’t appear in the major leagues until 1952, when he played in six games at age 39. I have to answer yes here.

6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

I doubt that Trouppe is the best player outside the BBFHOF.

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

Baseballthinkfactory’s MLEs credit Trouppe with 260+ career win shares and 113 in his best five consecutive seasons. They credit him with 84 win shares in his best three seasons. Dr. Chaleeko knocked down the figures for 1938 and 1946 on the grounds that Trouppe wouldn’t have caught as much in the major leagues as a linear translation would indicate. Since his five-year peak lasted from 1939 to 1943, the adjustments don’t affect that mark.

The adjustments would lower Trouppe’s best three seasons from 84 to 79, however. On the other hand, in 1946, Trouppe was playing in Negro League games, and they counted in the standings for his team. Furthermore, the BTF people admit that their MLEs, while good for career value and five-year consecutive peaks, do understate the value of a player’s best three seasons, as they flatten out the peaks and valleys in individual seasons. For this reasons, I’ll use the unadjusted 84 figure here.

Comparable career win shares, C: Mickey Cochrane 275, Bill Freehan 267, TROUPPE 260+, Lance Parrish 248, and Wally Schang 245. From 1933 to 1936, Trouppe played for a very good Bismarck team that held its own against established Black Baseball clubs. Due to a lack of data, there are no MLEs for those seasons, and credit for them would certainly push Trouppe above 275. Since every eligible MLB catcher with 267+ career win shares is in the BBFHOF, Trouppe exceeds the cutoff mark here.

Best three seasons: Bill Dickey 87, Ted Simmons 86, TROUPPE 84, Roger Bresnahan 83, Gene Tenace 83, Darren Daulton 83, Gabby Hartnett 80. Trouppe is in the gray area.

Best five consecutive seasons: Elston Howard 119, Roger Bresnahan 116, Gabby Hartnett 114, QUINCY TROUPPE 113, Mickey Tettleton 111, Thurman Munson 111, Carlton Fisk 106. Again, Trouppe lands in the gray area.

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

The ink and HOF Standards tests aren’t applicable here. While Trouppe is not in Cooperstown, he is in the Hall of Merit.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

Between 1933 and 1936, Trouppe was playing high-level ball with an independent Bismarck team, but statistics from that period are limited.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

I believe that Trouppe is the best eligible catcher outside the BBFHOF. He has the lead in career value, and is in the gray area in the peak measures.

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

Before the playing time adjustment was made, Trouppe was credited with 31 win shares in 1946. That would have been Trouppe’s only season with 30+ win shares, according to the MLEs.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

Trouppe was named to five teams for the East-West game, and probably would have been on several more had it not been for all his years in Mexico. Trouppe has seven seasons that come out to 20+ win shares, and that is the lower limit for post-1920 catchers. He might have had another one or two with Bismarck, but we don’t have data for those years.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

At his best, yes.

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

Not that I know of.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

As far as I can tell, yes.

CONCLUSION: Trouppe really did come along twenty years too soon. The fact that he played for so many teams, all for short periods of time, kept him from being associated with any one club, and that hurt him when Negro League players were finally recognized. It didn’t help that several of those teams were outside the organized Negro Leagues (Bismarck, the Mexican League teams). Also, Josh Gibson was, by far, the best catcher in baseball during Trouppe’s peak.

However, the statistical analysis at baseballthinkfactory has cleared away a lot of the screens standing between us and Trouppe. Trouppe’s peak puts him in the gray area for the BBFHOF, and his total career value puts him in the “admit-me” realm. He also had seven documented seasons with 20+ win shares, which seems to be the real cut-off line for catchers (Hartnett had seven such seasons, and, as of February 2008, Ivan Rodriguez also has seven). Trouppe’s record as a catcher makes him deserving of the BBFHOF.

from pages 50-53 of the recent book on the Mexican Leagues, South of the Color Barrier by John Virtue and p. 347 of Riley's Negro League Biographical Encyclopedia: some teammates of Trouppe's on the Bismarck, ND team: Satchel Paige (!!), Hilton Smith (!), Red Haley of the Memphis Red Sox, Double Duty Radcliffe (six Negro League all star games, though probably some duplicates in a year because they often played two), Barney Morris (made 2 Negro League All-Star games) and Chet Brewer (again a Negro League multiple season all-star) and Roosevelt Davis (Pittsburgh Crawfords and Cleveland Buckeyes). That Bismarck team was a true powerhouse.

[jalbright]

And now Dick Lundy

The BBTF guys really went nuts in dealing with this guy, as the paucity of data initially led them to think he was a " you don't walk off the island"-type hacker at the plate, which would have emptied a near .300 career MLE in average. More research and data led them to the conclusion that while he wasn't a walk machine, he wasn't that extreme a hacker, either. The final analysis on him is that he would have been about a .303/360/406 hitter for his career, which would have been in the 100 to 104 OPS+ range in his day. This is in 8900 or so PA, and they estimate that's worth about 347 Win Shares for a shortstop with Lundy's stellar defensive rep. Overall, that's Bobby Wallace/Joe Sewell territory, and as I support both, I'll be supporting him, I think.

He has some key positives, including receiving 75% support for Cooperstown from the players surveyed in Cool Papas and Double Duties, and 96% of the Historians surveyed for that same book. He's listed as the third best shortstop by Bill James in his latest Historical Abstract, and was on the third team of the 1950's Pittsburgh Courier poll setting out the greatest players of the Negro Leagues. He was also in 24th place among the players listed in a SABR poll trying to determine who the Negro League greats were.

[Cougar]

Thank you Jim.

[Freakshow]

I'll comment organized roughly by position:

Kaat is about as good as John; Smith is about as good as Quiz. I like Shocker better than Bridges, Newk better than Shocker, and Morris better than Newk. And Ron Guidry is as good or better than any of these.

McCormick as a 19th century guy is a different animal, but he might be the best 19th century pitcher that hasn't come up yet. Other candidates are Tommy Bond (I'd place him first) or Bobby Mathews.

You've got the next four MLB catchers just about exactly right; my favorite is Ellie Howard because of his trailblazing (first black Yankee). I don't know enough about Trouppe to judge.

Vernon and Mattingly are the best 1b still out there; Garvey and Cash being a little lower on my list; not much

No second basemen mentioned: How about Buddy Myer, Del Pratt, or Frank White?

Rosen's the best 3b still out there, unless you're a Buddy Bell or Lave Cross man; talk about a peak vs. career contrast! Ventura is probably the next best after those.

Don't know enough about Dick Lundy at SS; Concepcion is the best MLB SS available, but Bert Campaneris is a virtual clone in terms of value. Tony Fernandez is right there as well.

Bob Johnson is the best LF still out there, unless you're a Lefty O'Doul man like me...on lifetime contributions he should be in; throw in the #4 all time lifetime BA and he should be a lock.

Wally Berger is a worthy choice, although CF is chock full of borderline cases that are hard to rank because they have such disparate skill sets. My top CF would be Vada Pinson, with Al Oliver close behind; my quirky pick is Cy Williams.

Oliva's absence (so far) was sticking out like a sore thumb to me, and I'm also a big Cravath guy; Staub is right behind them on my queue.

Sometime Harold Baines, with his accumulated career totals, has to enter the discussion.Some good thoughts here. I'll comment generally, beginning with this:

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

There is more to be considered here than "I like the guy's case".

In suggesting candidates for the runoff there is an important component to keep in mind: the guy has to have a constituency. IOW, we need to be able to point to a group that considers them to be at least a strong candidate for the HOF.

Ranking well in some empirical metric or other is good, but if it doesn't precipitate support then the candidate must be failing in something unmeasured - there's too much of something not to like in his resume.

We start with the three Halls, looking for membership, or at least strong support in:
--the BBFHOF and other projects at BBF
--the Hall of Merit elections and analyses
--the Hall of Fame popular candidates

We should look beyond these to other surveys and rating, as well. But if you're not on the radar for any of the three Halls, you're likely to go to the back burner.

[Paul Wendt]

Who is in one the Hall of Merit or the BBFHOF but not yet nominated here?
Trouppe, Lundy, and Dickey Pearce?

Why not get a uniform assessment of everyone who is a leading candidate in one of the actual Hall of Fame elections?
These seem to be the remainders now:
- Jack Morris, Lee Smith
- Jim Kaat, Tony Oliva
- Allie Reynolds, Mickey Vernon

[Freakshow]

Who is in one the Hall of Merit or the BBFHOF but not yet nominated here?
Trouppe, Lundy, and Dickey Pearce?

Why not get a uniform assessment of everyone who is a leading candidate in one of the actual Hall of Fame elections?
These seem to be the remainders now:
- Jack Morris, Lee Smith
- Jim Kaat, Tony Oliva
- Allie Reynolds, Mickey VernonI see you're keeping track. :lookitup Yes, Trouppe and Lundy are the last ones from the HOM to be considered here. (Redding and Cooper completed the list of members of the BBFHOF.) I've decided there's zero chance Pearce will ever be a "player" candidate for the HOF; strictly in the "pioneer" class for their concerns. We're only considering "player" candidates in this project. The HOF would never consider a player whose "official" MLB career consisted of 33 games and batting .198.

Morris is a leading candidate in the BBWAA elections currently, so I suppose we'll have to include him at some point. Kaat is clearly a better player, also with strong HOF voting support, so he comes on before Jack.

Reynolds and Vernon are products of the madcap procedures of the VC. Vernon I can see a case for, with war credit; #389 in the Collaboration Game. He could make the runoff before this project expires.

Reynolds is a bigger reach. The new VC liked him a lot (too much); #474 in the Collaboration Game and that's probably too kind a ranking. Still, it might be worth it to throw him into the runoff near the end, just to numerically demonstrate how meager his support is among our electorate.

I'm really busy over the next few days and we're still looking for a couple voters here, so we'll probably be into next week before I can close this election.

[Paul Wendt]

Yes:

1 Joe Start
2 Bob Caruthers
3 Ezra Sutton
4 Tommy Leach
5 Jimmy Sheckard
6 Lip Pike
7 Charlie Keller
8 Albert Belle
9 Dobie Moore

No

10 George Van Haltren
11 Bucky Walters
12 Carl Mays
13 Dave Parker
14 Larry Doyle
15 Willie Randolph

[Freakshow]

This election has been open for nearly two weeks and barely half of the electorate has dared to weigh in with a ballot. We'll go a couple more days, hoping to hear from these folks:

Ace Venom
AstrosFan
Brad Harris
Captain Cold Nose
Domenic
Fielding Marshall
STLCards2
Windy City Fan

[Fielding Marshall]

Freakshow, thanks for reminding us of the voting criteria last time. As it turns out, I had been voting wrong for whatever reason. Thanks again.

1. Bob Caruthers Y
2. Albert Belle Y
3. Lip Pike Y
4. Willie Randolph Y
5. Ezra Sutton Y
6. Joe Start Y
7. Jimmy Sheckard Y
8. Larry Doyle Y
9. Dobie Moore Y
10. Bucky Walters Y
11. Tommy Leach N
12. George Van Haltren N
13. Charlie Keller N
-----------------------------Personal HOF Line---------------------------
14. Carl Mays N
15. Dave Parker N

1. Cupid Childs
2. Bob Elliot
3. Bret Saberhagen
4. Dan Quisenberry
5. Charley Jones
6. Billy Pierce
7. Dave Stieb

I also second the nominations of Shocker and Staub for the runoff, and would also like to add Buddy Myer, a personal favorite of mine.

[Brad Harris]

1. Start
2. Sheckard
3. Belle
4. Sutton
5. Walters
6. Doyle
7. Mays
8. Caruthers
9. Keller
10. Moore
11. Leach
12. Parker
13. Pike
14. Van Haltren
15. Randolph

All "yes"

Run-off
1. Childs
2. Jones
3. Mullane
4. McVey
5. Pierce
6. Bonds
7. Tiant

[Captain Cold Nose]

1. Bob Caruthers
2. Carl Mays
3. George Van Haltren
4. Jimmy Sheckard
5. Albert Belle
6. Dobie Moore
HOF line ends here
7. Ezra Sutton
8. Larry Doyle
9. Lip Pike
10. Joe Start
11. Tommy Leach
12. Bucky Walters
13. Dave Parker
14. Willie Randolph
15. Charlie Keller


1. Pete Browning
2. Dan Quisenberry
3. Dick Redding
4. Jimmy Ryan
5. Charlie Jones
6. Luis Tiant
7. Wilbur Cooper

[Domenic]

Sorry for the delay in my ballot - I missed the thread entirely.

01. Caruthers
02. Leach
03. Keller
04. Sutton
05. Moore
06. Start
07. Walters
08. Sheckard
09. Van Haltren
10. Mays

- - - Cut-off - - -

11. Randolph -- N
12. Belle -- N
13. Parker -- N
14. Doyle -- N
15. Pike -- N

Runoff
01. Quisenberry
02. Jones
03. Cooper
04. Pierce
05. Saberhagen
06. Ryan
07. Redding

[Freakshow]

Belonging in the HOF Pts Ave 1st No's
41 Ezra Sutton 302 5.8 0 3
42 Joe Start 298 6.1 4 3
43 Bob Caruthers 298 6.1 3 4
44 Jimmy Sheckard 293 6.5 1 4
45 Tommy Leach 290 6.7 0 4
46 Albert Belle 288 6.8 1 4
47 Bucky Walters 273 8.0 0 6
48 Charlie Keller 269 8.3 1 6
49 Geo. Van Haltren 265 8.6 0 6
50 Dobie Moore 258 9.2 1 4
Carried over to next election
Carl Mays 255 9.4 0 7
Willie Randolph 255 9.4 0 9
Dave Parker 254 9.5 2 9
Larry Doyle 250 9.8 0 8
Lip Pike 247 10.0 0 6

Runoff Winners Pts Bal
Charley Jones 101 8
Billy Pierce 86 8
Cupid Childs 80 6
Alejandro Oms 79 6
Wilbur Cooper 70 6
Dan Quisenberry 69 5
Luis Tiant 68 6
Cal McVey 63 5
Bob Elliott 60 5
Bobby Bonds 56 5
Carried over to next runoff
Jimmy Ryan 51 5
Bret Saberhagen 50 4
Dick Redding 41 4
Tommy John 38 3
Dave Stieb 36 3
Reggie Smith 35 3
Tony Mullane 32 3
Gil Hodges 29 2
Pete Browning 24 2
Vern Stephens 24 2
The electorate has spoken, choosing another full slate of ten players to dwell in HOF purgatory. The BBWAA should elect: Albert Belle; The modern VC, with its hall of famer electorate, needs to elect nobody from this group; the oldtimer VC, with its electorate of historians, needs to elect Ezra Sutton, Joe Start, Bob Caruthers, Jimmy Sheckard, Tommy Leach, Bucky Walters, Charlie Keller and George Van Haltren. The Negro leagues committee should reconvene and elect Dobie Moore. We'll have more candidates for them in upcoming elections.

Our next ballot will include these 15 candidates: Bonds, Childs, Cooper, Doyle, Elliott, Jones, Mays, McVey, Oms, Parker, Pierce, Pike, Quisenberry, Randolph, and Tiant. The thread will be up soon.

[Paul Wendt]

In advance I wouldn't have guessed that ten candidates would pass in round five.

Among the five also-rans, this week there is a slim majority Yes for Pike and a slim to moderate majority No for four others. Even if none of us change our minds, we may expect some change in those majorities from round to round, as some of us drop in and out..

[Freakshow]

Among the five also-rans, this week there is a slim majority Yes for Pike and a slim to moderate majority No for four others. Even if none of us change our minds, we may expect some change in those majorities from round to round, as some of us drop in and out..Which reminds me of a rule I wrote in the introductory thread which is now coming into play for the first time.
We’ll use a “three strikes, you’re out” rule: a player will be removed from the ballot after his third election being rejected by our electorateCarl Mays has two strikes on him. Unless a majority of voters approves of him in the next election, he's out. Even if he doesn't finish in the top ten, he can remain on the ballot if a majority says he belongs in the HOF.

Personally, I think he is below the HOF line and I plan to continue to vote him No.

[Freakshow]

In advance I wouldn't have guessed that ten candidates would pass in round five.--Indeed. I was particularly surprised that Walters and Keller squeaked through.
--Also, I note that Belle was the fifth player we elected who should be reinstated to the BBWAA ballot, having been victimized by the 5% rule. Others are Hernandez, Dw. Evans, W. Clark and Whitaker. Nine others we elected were earlier victims of the 5% rule: Santo, Allen, Grich, Simmons, Da. Evans, Wynn, Boyer, Freehan and Nettles. Anybody still think that's a fair rule?
--Four of the ten electees this time are members of both the BBFHOF and the HOM: Sutton, Start, Caruthers and Moore. Two are in the BBFHOF but not the HOM: Belle and Van Haltren, Two are in the HOM but not the BBFHOF: Sheckard and Keller. Two are in neither of those halls: Leach and Walters.