The garbage teams that trade good players

[Shawon-o-Meter]

How are these teams that enjoy being terrible as long as they pull in a little profit allowed to stay around? More importantly, how do they keep any sort of a fan base?

I don't think I need to get specific teams..you know who they are. They go years being terrible, trade a player once he gets good, and start all over being terrible again.

Get the heck out of here!!

[Mariano_Rivera]

The idea makes sense, trade your one and only star for some prospects that will hopefully pan out in a couple years before you lose him to free agency. The problem is that these teams can never get prospects that will actually pan out.

[sturg1dj]

I think there are two working models for it...at least from a monetary standpoint, and success as far as accepting you won't be good every season.

Marlins and the A's


A's do exactly what you say, but not to the extremes that the Marlins do. So they may have more success for a longer period but they have not been able to get over the hump.


The Marlins are the extreme example. They develop players and trade them until they think they can win...put everything into one great season and then start back at square one. It has yielded them 2 titles.


the problem is that the attendance suffers because fans don't like this kind of thing (who can blame them) and the teams then complain that they cannot spend money because they can't draw (which is basically their own fault). Then they will move to new stadiums in the future, draw for a couple of seasons then revert to their old ways and alienate the fans again.

Then you have the Pirates who don't know that they want to be.

[Seattle1]

The idea makes sense, trade your one and only star for some prospects that will hopefully pan out in a couple years.

Why just so you can turn around and trade them as soon as they get good? I am with the OP on this one. The Pirates fans loved McLouth. He was one glimmer of hope to go to the ballpark for.

:twocents:

[Mariano_Rivera]

Why just so you can turn around and trade them as soon as they get good? I am with the OP on this one. The Pirates fans loved McLouth. He was one glimmer of hope to go to the ballpark for.

:twocents:

The hope is that a couple of the prospects, coupled with some high draft picks can come through. That way rather than just one guy they have a solid core to build around. What else are they supposed to do?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

The Marlins are the extreme example. They develop players and trade them until they think they can win...put everything into one great season and then start back at square one. It has yielded them 2 titles.


That's not quite true. I know lot of people think the Marlins built two World Series champions then immediately tore them apart. That is cerainly true for that 1997 team but is simply not true for the 2003 team. The Marlins kept the core of their 2003 team together for 2004 and tried to win again. Josh Beck, Dontrelle Willis, and Miguel Cabrera were all on the 2004 and 2005 teams. The Marlins signed Armando Benitez for the 2004 season and he gave the Marlins a masterful performance. You don't sign a high priced closer if you are rebuilding a team. The Marlins were in first as late as July 1st. But they played poorly in July and they never recovered.

The Marlins contended again in 2005. As late as September 14th the Marlins were tied for the Wild Card lead with the Phillies. But they finished the season on a 5-11 skid and missed the playoffs again.

So even though the Marlins didn't make the playoffs in 2004-05 they did try to win in those seasons.

[sturg1dj]

That's not quite true. I know lot of people think the Marlins built two World Series champions then immediately tore them apart. That is cerainly true for that 1997 team but is simply not true for the 2003 team. The Marlins kept the core of their 2003 team together for 2004 and tried to win again. Josh Beck, Dontrelle Willis, and Miguel Cabrera were all on the 2004 and 2005 teams. The Marlins signed Armando Benitez for the 2004 season and he gave the Marlins a masterful performance. You don't sign a high priced closer if you are rebuilding a team. The Marlins were in first as late as July 1st. But they played poorly in July and they never recovered.

The Marlins contended again in 2005. As late as September 14th the Marlins were tied for the Wild Card lead with the Phillies. But they finished the season on a 5-11 skid and missed the playoffs again.

So even though the Marlins didn't make the playoffs in 2004-05 they did try to win in those seasons.


maybe true, but they did trade Derek Lee, Juan Encarnacion, and didn't resign Pudge.

[Bennybosox]

maybe true, but they did trade Derek Lee, Juan Encarnacion, and didn't resign Pudge.

Right. And while they kept most of that team intact for 2004, they began to shed payroll soon after, eventually achieving complete turnover by completing a trade of D. Willis & M. Cabrera after the 2007 offseason.

It's strange because while that model can be successful, the Marlins now seem to subscribe to it with no intention of working toward an end result (World Series). I live in South Florida and the Marlins already field one of the youngest teams in baseball and have MLB's lowest payroll by a mile, but they continue to talk about shedding payroll with an eye on developing premium (and cheap) minor league talent. By this time next year the team could replace quality young players like: Dan Uggla, Jermey Hermida, Cody Ross and Jorge Cantu (not so young--but productive an inexpensive)and replace them with blue chip minor league talent like: Logan Morrison, Mike Stanton, Matt Dominguez & Cam Maybin---and seemingly not miss a beat while actually shedding $7-10 million of a payroll that is already under $30MM.

Is this method going to win them another World Series? Probably not, but in their eyes (the front office) it may still keep them competitve while keeping payroll way down. And who knows--they just may catch lightning in a bottle. At least thats how they'll try to spin it to the fans.

[sturg1dj]

. At least thats how they'll try to spin it to the fans.

and from the looks of it the Marlins fans are not buying it.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

maybe true, but they did trade Derek Lee, Juan Encarnacion, and didn't resign Pudge.

The Marlins traded the lesser players and kept the key guys who were also younger and cheaper. Encarnacion was never a key player. The Marlins traded Derrek Lee for Hee Sheop Choi. In Choi the Marlins saw a player than potentially could have been an All-Star Caliber player. Choi was rated the Cubs #1 prospect by Baseball America in 2003. But the Marlins did a funny thing in 2004. They traded Choi, Brad Penny, and Bill Murphy to the Dodgers for Encarnacion, Geuillermo Mota, and Paul LaDuca. Clearly, in 2004 the Marlins were trying to win bringing in a solid reliever and good catcher. So I think it's obvious t hat the Marlins were seriously trying to win in 2004 and 2005.

[sturg1dj]

The Marlins traded the lesser players and kept the key guys who were also younger and cheaper. Encarnacion was never a key player. The Marlins traded Derrek Lee for Hee Sheop Choi. In Choi the Marlins saw a player than potentially could have been an All-Star Caliber player. Choi was rated the Cubs #1 prospect by Baseball America in 2003. But the Marlins did a funny thing in 2004. They traded Choi, Brad Penny, and Bill Murphy to the Dodgers for Encarnacion, Geuillermo Mota, and Paul LaDuca. Clearly, in 2004 the Marlins were trying to win bringing in a solid reliever and good catcher. So I think it's obvious t hat the Marlins were seriously trying to win in 2004 and 2005.

that is the point I was trying to make. They did trade a talented, established 30-HR guy for a prospect....correct?

what the trade tells me is that after winning they went back to what they do which was trade away talent who they do not want to sign for big bucks and try to get younger...then what happened is that they were competing in late July and decided to be buyers.

the 2005 team I will agree they were attempting to win...like they do. They will trade to get younger until they think they have a shot. 1997 they signed a bunch of players to get better, in 2003 it was Pudge, 2005 it was Delgado. That time it failed and the next season they were basically back to square one.

but you cannot deny their strategy is develop and trade away before first big contract (or second). That is why the Hanley Ramirez deal was such a big deal.




but this leads me to a different area. Teams like this like to hide behind the veil of small market. Yet one thing these owners do not want to do is spend money to make money. They have no fans because they have a terrible stadium and they very rarely have shown they are willing to make a commitment to their team's excellence.

there are many different ways that an owner can make money with a baseball team, but having fans in the seats seems like an important one that these owners and GM's like to ignore.

[steveironcity]

How are these teams that enjoy being terrible as long as they pull in a little profit allowed to stay around? More importantly, how do they keep any sort of a fan base?

I don't think I need to get specific teams..you know who they are. They go years being terrible, trade a player once he gets good, and start all over being terrible again.

Get the heck out of here!!

How can a Cubs fan call any team a garbage team? Your team hasnt won the series in 101 stinkin years, or even a pennant in 64.

[Buczilla]

How are these teams that enjoy being terrible as long as they pull in a little profit allowed to stay around? More importantly, how do they keep any sort of a fan base?

I don't think I need to get specific teams..you know who they are. They go years being terrible, trade a player once he gets good, and start all over being terrible again.

Get the heck out of here!!

Real fans take the good with the bad. Sure the ball might not always go our way, but we love our team regardless. Born, bred, until death do us part.

$484,560,149 --- That is how much the Yankees, Mets and Tigers combined to spend on their payrolls last season. Those three were the top spenders in all of the land. All three of those teams took an L for last season just like the Pirates did by not winning a championship....the only W that matters every season. Those three also sat out the playoffs just like my beloved Buccos did.

I am more confident in the route the front office is taking now than in years past, especially not signing someone for the sake of spending money to make it actually look like they're making an effort to put a better product out there on the field. Gone also are those stupid high expectations and monikers like "We Will"...nothing has been sugarcoated.

Money is being spent in Latin America, a presence is finally established again down there. Money has been used on the draft. Because of our baron farm system, money has gone to all the right places. For us to compete, we have to build from within. Anybody who claims that we are stocked down below because of those two trades last season hasn't the slightest clue. Same goes for those touting that the owner is lining his own pocket...there is a money trail now, something that wasn't evident pre-Nutting.

Nobody complains when the A's, Twins, etc of the world operate the same way. You need talented prospects before you can turn over talent in the majors(the ultimate plan). Anybody who claims that this is the Pirates way of life of years past hasn't really been paying attention.

I would also like to add that it is far too early to judge the McLouth trade. We won't know how this deal worked out for a few more years. In the meantime, Morton got called up and will be starting tomorrow(errrr, today).

[CandlestickBum]

How can a Cubs fan call any team a garbage team? Your team hasnt won the series in 101 stinkin years, or even a pennant in 64.

Aaaaaahhh-hahahahahahahaha!

BUSTED!

[Buczilla]

Thus far I think the Pirates should have exceeded everybodies expectations of them. This is a team that finished up last season 17-37 with a .340 w% after trading Bay. A team that people claim is stocked enough down below, yet last season mud was being flung left and right at us about how we got robbed and how talentless the prospects were. Even our local sports journalists and talking heads thought 100+ losses was a given.

At this same point last season we won a grand total of one more game. Yep, you read that right...with all these new faces when we were expected to do a hell of alot worse, we are on exactly the same pace prior to those trades.

Granted there is alot of baseball left to be played and we could easily fall right to the bottom of the barrel, but I don't see that coming.

[KCGHOST]

Don't feed the trolls, boys.

[Bennybosox]

The idea makes sense, trade your one and only star for some prospects that will hopefully pan out in a couple years before you lose him to free agency. The problem is that these teams can never get prospects that will actually pan out.

Or in the case of your boys, you can roll the dice and really give up nothing.

You were able to trade a talented head case (Tabata) and a bunch of pitchers taht are all exactly the same (Ohlendorf, karstens, McCutchen) for a starting OF'er (Nady) & a (at the time) quality middle reliver (Marte).

It didn't necessarily work out the way you had hoped, but looking back on it you really fleeced the Pirates at the time.

And the point you make is valid--none of those "prospects" will actually pan out

[Zito75]

How can a Cubs fan call any team a garbage team? Your team hasnt won the series in 101 stinkin years, or even a pennant in 64.

Wow. I had to laught at that one- even the Rockies & Rays have done better in the past few years- and both teams are what, 15 years old or less?

[StanTheMan]

How can a Cubs fan call any team a garbage team? Your team hasnt won the series in 101 stinkin years, or even a pennant in 64.

Hey, just because Haleys Comet has circled the galaxy and zoomed past the Earth TWICE since the Cubs last won a World Series does not give us the right to......

Scratch that, yes it does.


Great post steve.....

[NineWorldSeries]

How can a Cubs fan call any team a garbage team? Your team hasnt won the series in 101 stinkin years, or even a pennant in 64.

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/applause.gif (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=553)