Why the Pirates will never be a winner

[klbo3plus3]

They don't believe they can win. They dump McLouth for prospects 1/3 of the way through the season.

The Braves believe they can win and make a move.

The Pirates don't believe they win and give up any chance of it happening.

I am frustated because the Pirates are only 2.5 games behind the Braves in the standings. There is no reason to sacrifice the season (yet anyway). It seems like such a losing mentality to trade one of their better players so early.

Anyway my apologies for being frustrated right now. It seemed like they finally had some glimmer of hope with their good start this year (even though they had faded recently).

[SamtheBravesFan]

Isn't it a little early to say the Pirates are "giving up"? They're going to bring up Andrew McCutchen, who is one of their top prospects. He should produce for them.

[klbo3plus3]

I hope McCutchen is as good as advertised, but trading the team leader in homers and RBI and replacing him with rookie does not seem like a likely strategy for success this season.

I guess I have just stopped believing that they have a strategy other than trading proven players for prospects. I wish they would give the season a chance before becoming sellers.

Your point is well taken though, maybe the new management of the Pirates has a better grasp on things than the old management did.

[brewers08]

Yea the Pirates arn't doing anything this year. If they were in the Little League West then maybe i wouldn't make the trade, but the Brewers, Reds, Cards, and even the Cubs are better than them this year. They still have alot of holes, might as well get 3 players for 1.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Your point is well taken though, maybe the new management of the Pirates has a better grasp on things than the old management did.

I do think this managment has a better grasp than the old one, but I also think they got totally screwed on this trade. It's not a bad idea, as I think that Morton is a useful pitcher and Locke may turn into something, but I'm starting to wonder if Gorkys is going to develop into an effective leadoff hitter or not.

[baseball junkie]

I don't know why the "baseball" organization in Pittsburgh is called the Pirates -- they haven't taken a pennant in forever.

There definitely is a trend of the org trading away very good young players for prospects: Giles, Bay, McLouth. Not to mention the greatest player of our or possibly any generation that the org let walk on 26 Oct. 1992 ...

In return this time the Pirates received Charlie Morton who projects as a 4th or 5th starter, possible long reliever in MLB. But that's like an ace for the Pirates. Jeff Locke, 21-year-old, southpaw who has never pitched above A ball. And the real prize, another 21-year-old, this one playing in Double-A who is hitting .316 this season but who doesn't like to walk, Gorkys Hernandez, a speedster CF -- who kind of reminds me of Willy Taveras (yikes!) but who could turn into a Juan Pierre.

[SamtheBravesFan]

I don't know why the "baseball" organization in Pittsburgh is called the Pirates -- they haven't taken a pennant in forever.

There definitely is a trend of the org trading away very good young players for prospects: Giles, Bay, McLouth. Not to mention the greatest player of our or possibly any generation that the org let walk on 26 Oct. 1992 ...

In return this time the Pirates received Charlie Morton who projects as a 4th or 5th starter, possible long reliever in MLB. But that's like an ace for the Pirates. Jeff Locke, 21-year-old, southpaw who has never pitched above A ball. And the real prize, another 21-year-old, this one playing in Double-A who is hitting .316 this season but who doesn't like to walk, Gorkys Hernandez, a speedster CF -- who kind of reminds me of Willy Taveras (yikes!) but who could turn into a Juan Pierre.

Like I said, Locke could turn into something, as he has shown some talent in the low minors. Being a Juan Pierre type hitter isn't really all that bad; you just need to execute constantly on the positives that you have.

[Coal Cracker]

The Pirates are going to struggle until there's a change in ownership, simple as that. While the management might be an improvement over the old regime, this is same old, same old for the Buccos.

I'm not a huge McLouth fan but they got fleeced on this deal IMO. Had they waited until closer to the deadline, I think they could've done better. Very few teams are ready to deal now, should have waited until the races have a little more time to take shape.

[spark240]

I guess I have just stopped believing that they have a strategy other than trading proven players for prospects. I wish they would give the season a chance before becoming sellers.

It's not just a matter of any one season, either--at some point, you have to hang on to some proven players for a few seasons, and develop the team around them. If the prospects prove themselves, only to be traded in turn for new prospects, what has been accomplished?

[baseball junkie]

Yes, if Gorkys can learn some plate discipline, take a few walks and keep his batting average high, he might be able to keep his OBP high enough to be a legit lead off hitter in MLB. He has great speed.

I just don't know if a possible lead off hitter in say two years, a fourth starter in the rotation, and an A-Ball pitching prospect are worth an established, power-hitting 27 year old.

McLouth is just coming into his prime.

[Buczilla]

Only time will tell how this deal works out. It was time for McCutchen to get called up. Either McLouth or Morgan was gonna be the odd man out. McLouth had the trade value and the bigger contract. When they handed out that contract to him you knew he wasn't gonna be around by the time things got turned around. He would have been dealt next year anyway IMHO.

Nate is a good ballplayer, but he is not an ideal #3 hitter. What exactly has he done since April prior to straining his oblique? Who is to say he would have gone on a tear pre-trade deadline and upped his value? It wasn't like McLouth was a talent on Bay or Giles level. Even if he upped his game to last years level we weren't gonna get anything close in return as we did when we traded them two.

[Milt on Tilt]

As a closet Pirates fan, this really upsets me.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I started watching baseball in 1976 in the middle of the Pirates greatest decade. The 1979 season and All-Star Game, and World Series are some of my favorite childhood memories. Watching one of the great teams of my youth became a hopeless clueless organization is difficult to watch. :dismay:



Post 10,100!

[DodgerBlue8188]

I was surprised by this as well. Look for Nat to have a great year in Atlanta.

[Bennybosox]

Many baseball talent evaluators and analysts seem to be of the opnion that McLouth was way overrated, and played over his head the first half of 2008 (with his second half stats being indictive of the player he really is).

That said, trading the "face of the franchise" for a collection of "b" prospects is never a good PR move. Especially when you consider the backlash over the return on last years Bay & Nady trades

So, I guess the next question is: How did the phone conversation go when the teams were putting the deal together?

Pittsburgh: "We're making Nate McLouth available, do you want in"?
Atlanta: "Sure. You can have any three prospects outside of Heyward, Hanson, Schaffer or Freeman-- any three except those guys. Take your pick"

[SamtheBravesFan]

Many baseball talent evaluators and analysts seem to be of the opnion that McLouth was way overrated, and played over his head the first half of 2008 (with his second half stats being indictive of the player he really is).

That said, trading the "face of the franchise" for a collection of "b" prospects is never a good PR move. Especially when you consider the backlash over the return on last years Bay & Nady trades

So, I guess the next question is: How did the phone conversation go when the teams were putting the deal together?

Pittsburgh: "We're making Nate McLouth available, do you want in"?
Atlanta: "Sure. You can have any three prospects outside of Heyward, Hanson, Schaffer or Freeman-- any three except those guys. Take your pick"

Considering the circumstances, I think Pittsburgh took the right people if that was the case.

[Bennybosox]

Considering the circumstances, I think Pittsburgh took the right people if that was the case.

Don't you think thats how it had to have gone down?
Obviously Atlanta wasn't going to make Hanson or Heyward available, but I find it to be unbeliveable that they were able to do the deal without giving up Schaffer or Freeman.

I mean, it's not like McLouth is old --and he's signed reasonably cheap for a pretty long time. Kudos to Frank Wren for pulling off this trade without having to use a mask and gun

[Bennybosox]

Anyway, any deal that keeps Sean Burnett in a Pirate uniform is a good deal for the Bucs.

Keep up the good work "Burnie"!

[philliesfiend55]

They don't believe they can win. They dump McLouth for prospects 1/3 of the way through the season.

The Braves believe they can win and make a move.

The Pirates don't believe they win and give up any chance of it happening.

I am frustated because the Pirates are only 2.5 games behind the Braves in the standings. There is no reason to sacrifice the season (yet anyway). It seems like such a losing mentality to trade one of their better players so early.

Anyway my apologies for being frustrated right now. It seemed like they finally had some glimmer of hope with their good start this year (even though they had faded recently).

I'm sorry to say that you make a bunch of good points. They have traded a whole starting outfield away in about ten months (Bay, McLouth, & Nady) and in each of the trades, the baseball insiders have said they should have gotten more talent back in return than they did.
I like Jaramillo, and as a Phillies fan, I wish the Phillies had never given him up to Pittsburgh, but unfortunately the Bucs smart moves seem to be outnumbered by their poor ones.

It's hard to shed the Loser Mentality, but it can be done with the history of all pro sports, MLB, NHL, NFL,& NBA showing plenty of examples of franchises that turned the corner in a big way. Look no further than the Pittsburgh Steelers who never won anything for the first 40 or so years of their existence only to become, probably the best franchise of the entire NFL over the last 35 years.

The best the Steelers ever did before their 1974 team won the Super Bowl in Jan. '75 was to finish in a regular season tie for the Eastern division title in 1947 with the Philadelphia Eagles. The
Steelers lost the resulting playoff game for the division title . In 1963, back when there was no overtime to settle ties the Steelers almost won a division because they had two or three ties. The NY Giants managed to squeak past them for the NL East title, however. Most of the other years between 1947 and 1963 the Steelers were horrible. The Steelers franchise has come a long way since those Dark Days.
Currently the PIRATES HAVE a STREAK OF 16 straight under .500 seasons, and counting, but the streak will end sometime and BASED ON THEIR CURRENT ROSTER AND FARM SYSTEM, it will probably end sooner than later.

[CandlestickBum]

Many baseball talent evaluators and analysts seem to be of the opnion that McLouth was way overrated, and played over his head the first half of 2008 (with his second half stats being indictive of the player he really is).


Exactly, my friend and I were damn happy the Giant's didn't get involved with this trade.

[philkid3]

I'm so confused by Pirates fans being upset about losing an overrated player for some good prospects when they're not close to contention and need to rebuild.

[brewers08]

I'm so confused by Pirates fans being upset about losing an overrated player for some good prospects when they're not close to contention and need to rebuild.

I agree. .250 BA, 9 HR, and 34 RBI is good, but not great. Pirates have holes that need to be filled, trading 1 player for 3 w/ potential is a great way to do so. They have a prospect that has a ton of potential to replace him, i really don't see what the big deal is.

[klbo3plus3]

I agree. .250 BA, 9 HR, and 34 RBI is good, but not great. Pirates have holes that need to be filled, trading 1 player for 3 w/ potential is a great way to do so. They have a prospect that has a ton of potential to replace him, i really don't see what the big deal is.

It is more the pattern of continual rebuilding that rankles. At some point you need to keep good players instead of always trading good players for prospects. McLouth may have been overrated, but he was an established major leaguer on track for 20-25 homers and 100 RBI. That is a commodity that a team should in my opinion keep, especially since his salary was not that steep, all in all. You need multiple proven players to be a winner, and McLouth may not be an MVP candidate, but he could be a key contributor to a team being a winner. It does not take that much to make a wild card run, but the Pirates by again trading a proven player for prospects have ensured after 50 games that they in all likelihood will not make that run this year (however unlikely that prospect was) or even probably next year.

If they had not done the same thing last year (and multiple times before that)I would be on board, I guess I just can't sell myself on it anymore.

[baseball junkie]

The reason for Pirates' fans being so :rant: upset is two fold. The team could have contended for a wildcard this year. Removing the number three hitter in the lineup from the team probably hurts its chances of making it to the playoffs.

Also, there is a fairly clear pattern of behavior by the Pirates of either releasing or trading away young, talented players when they're up for a pay raise or just got one: Barry Lamar Bonds, Brian Giles, Jason Bay, Xavier Nady, Nate McLouth, etc., etc.

I'd also bet that in say three years we'll be having this discussion again about Andrew McCutchen and why the Bucs needed to trade him to pick up additional prospects because the team has so many holes to fill.

Just call them the Quad-A Pirates from now on.

[klbo3plus3]

I'm sorry to say that you make a bunch of good points. They have traded a whole starting outfield away in about ten months (Bay, McLouth, & Nady) and in each of the trades, the baseball insiders have said they should have gotten more talent back in return than they did.
I like Jaramillo, and as a Phillies fan, I wish the Phillies had never given him up to Pittsburgh, but unfortunately the Bucs smart moves seem to be outnumbered by their poor ones.

It's hard to shed the Loser Mentality, but it can be done with the history of all pro sports, MLB, NHL, NFL,& NBA showing plenty of examples of franchises that turned the corner in a big way. Look no further than the Pittsburgh Steelers who never won anything for the first 40 or so years of their existence only to become, probably the best franchise of the entire NFL over the last 35 years.

The best the Steelers ever did before their 1974 team won the Super Bowl in Jan. '75 was to finish in a regular season tie for the Eastern division title in 1947 with the Philadelphia Eagles. The
Steelers lost the resulting playoff game for the division title . In 1963, back when there was no overtime to settle ties the Steelers almost won a division because they had two or three ties. The NY Giants managed to squeak past them for the NL East title, however. Most of the other years between 1947 and 1963 the Steelers were horrible. The Steelers franchise has come a long way since those Dark Days.
Currently the PIRATES HAVE a STREAK OF 16 straight under .500 seasons, and counting, but the streak will end sometime and BASED ON THEIR CURRENT ROSTER AND FARM SYSTEM, it will probably end sooner than later.


Thanks for you comments. I certainly would like to believe you are right about ending the streak. The farm system definitely should be well stocked at this point!

[baseball junkie]

The fact that somebody else :radio virtually the same thing as me about a minute before my post shows how ubiquitous this thinking has become -- which kind of scares me.

[klbo3plus3]

The fact that somebody else :radio virtually the same thing as me about a minute before my post shows how ubiquitous this thinking has become -- which kind of scares me.


we were definitely on the same wavelength!

[klbo3plus3]

Any thoughts on the Pirates latest flurry of trades?

I don't know what to think, except that they certainly seem to enjoy trading a whole lot.

There is some sort of irony in the Pirates paying the Yankees a portion of Hinske's salary, as if the Yankees needed that 400,000$.

If there was any doubt the Pirates are planning for 2011 (not that there really was) then it should be gone now.

[Buczilla]

Any thoughts on the Pirates latest flurry of trades?

I don't know what to think, except that they certainly seem to enjoy trading a whole lot.

There is some sort of irony in the Pirates paying the Yankees a portion of Hinske's salary, as if the Yankees needed that 400,000$.

If there was any doubt the Pirates are planning for 2011 (not that there really was) then it should be gone now.

36-41 -- The Pirates record now.
37-40 -- The Pirates record this time last season.

Did you see that coming? Did anybody? Minus Bay, Nady and Marte with all those bums? Things look much different when you actually pay attention. Wasn't 100+ losses in our cards for this season? They'd have to finish up 26-59 to even hit 100, I'd bet my life that doesn't happen.

As for the trades, Hinske did not provide the pop that was expected of him. Morgan works in CF, but not LF. Garrett Jones who was just promoted should have came up with McCutchen. Lastings Milledge has a far greater upside and much more pop than a soon to be 29 year old Morgan.

[Bennybosox]

Anyway, any deal that keeps Sean Burnett in a Pirate uniform is a good deal for the Bucs.

Keep up the good work "Burnie"!


Wow, guessed I jinxed that, huh?

And poor Sean Burnett. the guy spends his entire career in the Pirate organization-- year after year of losing-- and when he finally gets traded its to the Nationals! poor guy

[sturg1dj]

I'm so confused by Pirates fans being upset about losing an overrated player for some good prospects when they're not close to contention and need to rebuild.

it shouldn't be that confusing. For some people baseball is more than stats in a newspaper its about finding a group of players you can get behind and cheering for them. In this case their most exciting player was McLouth and they had grown to love the guy. Regardless of what they got, they lost someone to cheer for and gained players they need to wait on. Maybe in a few years they will be happy with the result, but for now they have little to cheer for.

[klbo3plus3]

36-41 -- The Pirates record now.
37-40 -- The Pirates record this time last season.

Did you see that coming? Did anybody? Minus Bay, Nady and Marte with all those bums? Things look much different when you actually pay attention. Wasn't 100+ losses in our cards for this season? They'd have to finish up 26-59 to even hit 100, I'd bet my life that doesn't happen.

As for the trades, Hinske did not provide the pop that was expected of him. Morgan works in CF, but not LF. Garrett Jones who was just promoted should have came up with McCutchen. Lastings Milledge has a far greater upside and much more pop than a soon to be 29 year old Morgan.

I guess I just feel like they are tinkering endlessly. They are not that far out of the running as you mention. Hinske definitely did not live up to the billing.
At some point I wish they would stop shuffling the deck and let the team come together and allow some viable mature component players settle into a role.

For most of these trades they actually seem to have gotten decent looking prospects, but at some point they will have to have keep mature players instead of always swapping them for prospects.

I want to believe they have a plan and are aiming to nurture the prospects into contributing or star major leaguers that can make a run, but to date they have not shown the propensity to be that patient. I hope I am wrong.

[Buczilla]

I guess I just feel like they are tinkering endlessly. They are not that far out of the running as you mention. Hinske definitely did not live up to the billing.
At some point I wish they would stop shuffling the deck and let the team come together and allow some viable mature component players settle into a role.

For most of these trades they actually seem to have gotten decent looking prospects, but at some point they will have to have keep mature players instead of always swapping them for prospects.

I want to believe they have a plan and are aiming to nurture the prospects into contributing or star major leaguers that can make a run, but to date they have not shown the propensity to be that patient. I hope I am wrong.

That's the thing though, in the case of Bay, Nady and Marte they were nearing walk years(all close to becoming FA's). With them we still won at the same rate as now. With them we didn't win more. We still needed more pieces. The only keeper of the bunch was Bay(this is also including the group of players we traded this season).

Landing stud FA's here in the Burgh is easier said than done. We can't compete dollar for dollar with the big boys. Nobody wants to play here. We don't pull off those trades last season and all those guys walk, what are we left with? We are left with nothing and the organization would be in far worse shape than many perceive it to be now.

I can see people being angered if we traded a player of the caliber of Bay left and right, but each time we pull the trigger you would think we just traded Stargell, Clemente, Parker and Bonds. What really gets me though is all the whining over Morgan who was built from the same mold that Tike Redman, Rajai Davis, Tony Alvarez were....players with the same skill set we have had no trouble finding.