Freshman hitters

[MSandman]

Curious if these hitters are representative of most freshman team hitters, in that a lot of hitting gets done w/ less-than-stellar swing mechanics? This was a 1-0 loss, so not much hitting, but this team didn't make the playoffs, only going 4-7 (but losing 5 games by a single run late and another by 2). But they've played together since Little League and there are some very athletic kids (which IMO, they NEED in order to overcome some not-so-good swing mechanics). Also curious what folks think of how many of these hitters seem to have swings that can take them to varsity someday?

This clip has all 10 hitters (http://members.cox.net/msanda/TG%20Freshman%20hitters.mp4) and each of their game swings from their last game last week. Please feel free to comment on any/all of them, using the order in which they batted, i.e.

1 - comment
2 - "
3 - "
...
10- "

Thanks,
Sandman

[rbgrubbs]

Had to break it down hitter by hitter, but overall impressions....

Were they facing a pitcher with a good off speed pitch? it looks like a majority (all but #16, lefty) were off balance and up on their front foot. Maybe work on staying back in their swings....

Looks like they were chasing a lot of balls out of the zone also...maybe attributed to the pitcher...I have noticed that plate discipline can really improve a hitters average and confidence.

Also, not a lot of seperation early (#1 and #2) and late (after #6 or #7)in the order...

Just my two cents worth

[mudvnine]

. . . there are some very athletic kids (which IMO, they NEED in order to overcome some not-so-good swing mechanics). You are VERY correct on that for most of them.

Also curious what folks think of how many of these hitters seem to have swings that can take them to varsity someday? The very last hitter (red shoes, silver/black helmet) would be my guess if choosing your best hitter and may have had some instruction in the past; having a swing that with a couple slight tweaks should transition to varsity pretty easily.

Lefty (#16) also has some workable mechanics and size that should work for him at the higher level with some additional work.

The righty with uniform #7 appears to have a natural swing hidden in there some where, but it looks to be suffering from either no coaching, or more likely poor coaching . . . get him proper coaching and he has a fairly good chance of advancing.

The rest were very rough and will have a difficult time transitioning without a great deal of proper coaching assistance. Who is instructing many of them on that "double-stride" (for no better terms) sequence at the beginning of there loads? That is terrible and has to go . . .

[jbooth]

Curious if these hitters are representative of most freshman team hitters, in that a lot of hitting gets done w/ less-than-stellar swing mechanics? This was a 1-0 loss, so not much hitting, but this team didn't make the playoffs, only going 4-7 (but losing 5 games by a single run late and another by 2). But they've played together since Little League and there are some very athletic kids (which IMO, they NEED in order to overcome some not-so-good swing mechanics). Also curious what folks think of how many of these hitters seem to have swings that can take them to varsity someday?

This clip has all 10 hitters (http://members.cox.net/msanda/TG%20Freshman%20hitters.mp4) and each of their game swings from their last game last week. Please feel free to comment on any/all of them, using the order in which they batted, i.e.

1 - comment
2 - "
3 - "
...
10- "

Thanks,
Sandman

my browser doesn't seem to want to play mp4. I checked my option settings. QT is set to play mpegs of all types, but when I click on your link I get a new window, but no video. Any ideas what's wrong?

[MSandman]

Jim,

QT opens mp4s fine. But the file does take awhile to load (tho it's only 2.4mb or so). Are you perhaps not up to date on the latest codecs? Maybe a new download would help?

Quicktime (http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/)

If that doesn't work, I can convert to Windows Media, but I find it easier to navigate through the clips w/ QT.

You could also try right-clicking on the link, then Save Target As to your hard drive. Then maybe open QT first, then open the file from within QT?

Thanks.

[MSandman]

Had to break it down hitter by hitter, but overall impressions....

Were they facing a pitcher with a good off speed pitch? it looks like a majority (all but #16, lefty) were off balance and up on their front foot. Maybe work on staying back in their swings....
Not really good off-speed as much as just being medium-to-slow on the fastball. This is pretty much what they saw for the norm this year - only a couple pitchers w/ good speed. And these kids are wired and anxious to hack away, most of them very aggressive at the plate.

Looks like they were chasing a lot of balls out of the zone also...maybe attributed to the pitcher...I have noticed that plate discipline can really improve a hitters average and confidence.
Most of them swing at anything they can get a bat on. My son is usually more selective, but that hasn't served him well in that he's now seeing more breaking stuff. So if he lets an outside/low strike 1 go by, then maybe fouls off a better one, he's now seeing curve balls. (Our LL didn't allow curves until All-Stars, and he only played rec ball last year as a 13, and not much good pitching there, for sure.)

Also, not a lot of seperation early (#1 and #2) and late (after #6 or #7)in the order...

Just my two cents worth

[MSandman]

Thanks for your input mudvine.

You are VERY correct on that for most of them.

The very last hitter (red shoes, silver/black helmet) would be my guess if choosing your best hitter and may have had some instruction in the past; having a swing that with a couple slight tweaks should transition to varsity pretty easily.
He's had a lot of instruction. He had a tough season tho (short, 11 games). He began the season hitting 2nd in the order, got a hit each game (1 a bombed double over the CF'er) and drove in 4 or 5 runs. But he was also flying out (or popping up sometimes) once or twice a game. So without warning or explanation, his coach swapped him w/ the hitter who was batting 8th (#7, the short righty), who hits the ball on the ground a ton (because he slaps it). The hitter who was moved down then went into a slump, a couple 0'fer games and just appeared to lack confidence the rest of the season. He ended up asking the coach a couple games later why the move was made and was told "I want more ground balls at the top of the order; put it in play and see what happens." IMO, dropping a hitter 6 spots all at once (when he's HITTING) is a bit much.

Lefty (#16) also has some workable mechanics and size that should work for him at the higher level with some additional work.
He's a very athletic kid and 6' tall, also the fastest on the team. He's never had any instruction at all though, as his father doesn't do anything w/ him (nice guy tho ;)) and he's not sent to any winter clinics either. I agree though that his natural swing isn't bad, tho he gets a bit cut off at the end it seems. But he also doesn't seem to WANT any instruction. Nice kid, not arrogant, but just seems fine w/ finding his own way.

The righty with uniform #7 appears to have a natural swing hidden in there some where, but it looks to be suffering from either no coaching, or more likely poor coaching . . . get him proper coaching and he has a fairly good chance of advancing.
He played on RI's premier AAU team last year, but didn't play a lot. He's barely 5' tall, but one of the scrappiest players I've ever seen. But he's not very coachable at all, probably due to being praised since t-ball. He's the one who was promoted from 8th to 2nd in the order and unlike the opposite kid (red shoes, last batter), he went on a singles tear, making the coach look like a genius. Truthfully, I think the coach's strategy probably had a lot to do w/ how BOTH boys played from thereon - one w/ a confidence injection, the other w/ too many questions/thoughts swirling around his head.

The rest were very rough and will have a difficult time transitioning without a great deal of proper coaching assistance. Who is instructing many of them on that "double-stride" (for no better terms) sequence at the beginning of there loads? That is terrible and has to go . . .I don't think anyone's told them to do it, but I agree, they s/b weaned off that immediately. Timing's hard enough w/o a doublestep like that. ;)

[mudvnine]

Thanks for your input mudvine.


He's had a lot of instruction. He had a tough season tho (short, 11 games). He began the season hitting 2nd in the order, got a hit each game (1 a bombed double over the CF'er) and drove in 4 or 5 runs. But he was also flying out (or popping up sometimes) once or twice a game. So without warning or explanation, his coach swapped him w/ the hitter who was batting 8th (#7, the short righty), who hits the ball on the ground a ton (because he slaps it). The hitter who was moved down then went into a slump, a couple 0'fer games and just appeared to lack confidence the rest of the season. He ended up asking the coach a couple games later why the move was made and was told "I want more ground balls at the top of the order; put it in play and see what happens." IMO, dropping a hitter 6 spots all at once (when he's HITTING) is a bit much. Sandman, I'm just curious, "red shoes, silver/black" final hitter wouldn't happen to be your son, now would he? :)

[MSandman]

Yes, mud, he's mine. :D I'm trying to get objective input here, so my original post was purposely vague in that regard. But yes, I was a bit peeved at the demotion, as it seemed a bit premature and overcoachy. However, I spent the couple weeks after that trying to encourage my son that "maybe this will take some pressure off" and "you should see more fastballs from that spot", etc.. IOW, I didn't let on that I was peeved and instead tried to keep him focused.

I've seen lots of kids like this tho, when the coaches show faith in them by batting them near the top of the order, keeping them in games, etc., they play w/ confidence. And the opposite too... when a kid gets moved down in the order, they lose confidence. I mean, moving from 2nd to 5th or even 6th wouldn't have been so shocking as dropping 6 spots.

I should add too that my son was the lone player from this team to get a varsity tryout. Not bragging; rather, just another variable that may have contributed to a fair amount of "pressing" at the plate this season, trying to live up to expectations. I do realize that he (and I) need to find ways to manage our own expectations and not get too caught up in the hype, as well as how to better deal w/ the hands that are dealt in this game. I won't say that my son got a big head over the varsity prospects, but he did feel some pride at home among family. And I tried to squash that a bit, to try to keep him grounded, by telling him things like "That's all good, but a month from now, no one is going to remember/care that you got a varsity look; all that will matter is what you're doing THEN". And it's not like he was 0'fer in those first 4 games. As I said, he had one hit in each of them, drove in several runs and only K'ed a couple times. His coach didn't like the fly balls to the OF or popups to SS/2B that accompanied that. I just wish he would've given him a couple games to try to accommodate his coach's request instead of the quick hook. I mean, this is freshman ball... isn't development more important than winning games?

At least he had a very solid season at SS, playing every inning of every game there and only booting 2 balls and throwing 1 away (and that was getting 3-7 attempts per game). But we sure would've liked to have seen how he would've finished the season if he'd gotten to stay at the 2-spot. :ughh

[scorekeeper]

Msandman,

Don’t be surprised that HS Frs aren’t swinging like Albert Pujols, and don’t get too wrapped up in what position in the batting order players bat in.

I think I’m one of the few people who do stats that relate to batting positions, You can see examples on pages 44, 45, 50, 51, 57, 66, 67, 71 of http://www.infosports.com/scorekeeper/images/cbatting.pdf

I’ve looked at those things on a regular basis for a number of years and can tell you, I’ve yet to see any strong relationship of performance to BPOS. IMHO, parents need to get what playing or batting position their kid plays out of their heads, and concentrate on just helping the kids improve, regardless of what they’re being asked to do, especially on the Fr and JV teams. What do you think might have happened if your boy batted in the 2 hole the entire season? Would you try to describe the performance of the “normal” #2 BPOS?

[THop]

Sandman,

“Curious if these hitters are representative of most freshman team hitters, in that a lot of hitting gets done w/ less-than-stellar swing mechanics”?

Yes, they look identical to the freshmen I have inherited for over 10 years. Can I presume that their pitching, defense and base running mechanics are equally weak?

If so, now, finally, after all these years, you can feel MY pain (lol).

Seriously, these kids need to be taught and reminded daily how to play. And very few freshman high school coaches know and those that do, aren’t motivated to go the extra mile for these kids on their $300 stipend. My recommendation is to show the varsity coach how you can help his summer team and then do so. If you don’t your son may end up being the lone senior when he graduates guaranteeing a weak team which in my opinion is no way to end a high school or playing career.

Good luck! I hope you do it. I’ve read your stuff for years. You can make a substantial difference!

THop

[HYP]

Yes, mud, he's mine. :D I'm trying to get objective input here, so my original post was purposely vague in that regard. But yes, I was a bit peeved at the demotion, as it seemed a bit premature and overcoachy. However, I spent the couple weeks after that trying to encourage my son that "maybe this will take some pressure off" and "you should see more fastballs from that spot", etc.. IOW, I didn't let on that I was peeved and instead tried to keep him focused.

I've seen lots of kids like this tho, when the coaches show faith in them by batting them near the top of the order, keeping them in games, etc., they play w/ confidence. And the opposite too... when a kid gets moved down in the order, they lose confidence. I mean, moving from 2nd to 5th or even 6th wouldn't have been so shocking as dropping 6 spots.

I should add too that my son was the lone player from this team to get a varsity tryout. Not bragging; rather, just another variable that may have contributed to a fair amount of "pressing" at the plate this season, trying to live up to expectations. I do realize that he (and I) need to find ways to manage our own expectations and not get too caught up in the hype, as well as how to better deal w/ the hands that are dealt in this game. I won't say that my son got a big head over the varsity prospects, but he did feel some pride at home among family. And I tried to squash that a bit, to try to keep him grounded, by telling him things like "That's all good, but a month from now, no one is going to remember/care that you got a varsity look; all that will matter is what you're doing THEN". And it's not like he was 0'fer in those first 4 games. As I said, he had one hit in each of them, drove in several runs and only K'ed a couple times. His coach didn't like the fly balls to the OF or popups to SS/2B that accompanied that. I just wish he would've given him a couple games to try to accommodate his coach's request instead of the quick hook. I mean, this is freshman ball... isn't development more important than winning games?

At least he had a very solid season at SS, playing every inning of every game there and only booting 2 balls and throwing 1 away (and that was getting 3-7 attempts per game). But we sure would've liked to have seen how he would've finished the season if he'd gotten to stay at the 2-spot. :ughh

Unfortunately, some coaches want a certain thing done and sometimes I think they expect more from certain players.

Example. My son played JV this year at the school where I am a varsity coach. I stay out of my sons and coaches affairs. If there is an issue the HC handles it and if my son has a problem, he has to approach his coach and if it is not resolved then he goes to the HC. I say this just so you know that he gets no special treatment.

His coach tended to ride him because he would hit the ball in the air. Not a lot of grounders. He would make him and only him do push ups if he popped up. I didn't understand this because we work on preventing grounders, in our own time, when we hit. My son ended the season with a 519 BA but one thing stood out in my mind. After a game when his team got 10 ran. My son had 2 at bats. He hit a double and one pop up. The coach, on the bus ride home told me that my son owed him push ups for the pop up. I didn't know what had happened in the game yet. I asked him if he was popping up a lot to see if there was something we needed to work on. He told me that he went 1 for 2 with a double and a pop up. My comment was a 500 day with a double, I'll take that anyday. On other days he would go 3 for 4 with a double, triple, single and a pop up and the coach would have him doing push ups for the pop up. Never quite understood it.

The point I guess I'm getting at, is this coach for some reason expected something different or more from my son. Maybe your coach expected the same from your son. My son ended the season in the 7 spot.

[scorekeeper]

Hyp,

That reminded me of what went on on my son’s JV team. The HVC had a philosophy that he wanted everything on the ground and to the opposite field. In fact, he had the Fr and JV coaches not only teach the philosophy, but to punish for not following it too.

Anyway, the boys had just played Valley at Valley, and beaten them something like 35-0. I walked to the car to grab a smoke while the team meeting went on, and was just sitting there waiting. I waited for the normal 15 minutes, then 20, then a half hour, and finally walked back to the field to find out what was going on. I saw the entire team doing wind sprint poles. Not jogging, wind sprints. There were already several boys who’d cramped up, and a couple who’d vomited. The reason they were running wind sprints, was one of our guys had hit a long fly triple, and in the coach’s eyes that was worth 10 wind sprint poles, and no one could start the next sprint until everyone finished.

[MSandman]

Msandman,
What do you think might have happened if your boy batted in the 2 hole the entire season? Would you try to describe the performance of the “normal” #2 BPOS?

He would've batted an additional 10-12x? :) And knowing that he'd be getting 3-4 ABs per game instead of 2-3 might have made him press less?

[MSandman]

Sandman,

“Curious if these hitters are representative of most freshman team hitters, in that a lot of hitting gets done w/ less-than-stellar swing mechanics”?

Yes, they look identical to the freshmen I have inherited for over 10 years. Can I presume that their pitching, defense and base running mechanics are equally weak?
For the vast majority, yes. :) Some shine in each skill, but for the most part, in each of the skills, most are weak.

If so, now, finally, after all these years, you can feel MY pain (lol).

Seriously, these kids need to be taught and reminded daily how to play. And very few freshman high school coaches know and those that do, aren’t motivated to go the extra mile for these kids on their $300 stipend. My recommendation is to show the varsity coach how you can help his summer team and then do so. If you don’t your son may end up being the lone senior when he graduates guaranteeing a weak team which in my opinion is no way to end a high school or playing career.

Good luck! I hope you do it. I’ve read your stuff for years. You can make a substantial difference!

THop

Thanks for the vote of confidence THop. Unfortunately, there IS no summer team for the freshman. There's Legion ball for upperclassmen and Jr. Legion for sophs/jrs (and 2-3 freshman per year). We're still waiting to hear if Kevin will get the opportunity to play Jr. Legion. And all of the local AAU teams played 4 games per weekend during the HS season, so we didn't want my son to play ball 7 days/week, w/ a rigorous all-honors school curriculum.

[MSandman]

Unfortunately, some coaches want a certain thing done and sometimes I think they expect more from certain players.

Example. My son played JV this year at the school where I am a varsity coach. I stay out of my sons and coaches affairs. If there is an issue the HC handles it and if my son has a problem, he has to approach his coach and if it is not resolved then he goes to the HC. I say this just so you know that he gets no special treatment.

His coach tended to ride him because he would hit the ball in the air. Not a lot of grounders. He would make him and only him do push ups if he popped up. I didn't understand this because we work on preventing grounders, in our own time, when we hit. My son ended the season with a 519 BA but one thing stood out in my mind. After a game when his team got 10 ran. My son had 2 at bats. He hit a double and one pop up. The coach, on the bus ride home told me that my son owed him push ups for the pop up. I didn't know what had happened in the game yet. I asked him if he was popping up a lot to see if there was something we needed to work on. He told me that he went 1 for 2 with a double and a pop up. My comment was a 500 day with a double, I'll take that anyday. On other days he would go 3 for 4 with a double, triple, single and a pop up and the coach would have him doing push ups for the pop up. Never quite understood it.

The point I guess I'm getting at, is this coach for some reason expected something different or more from my son. Maybe your coach expected the same from your son. My son ended the season in the 7 spot.

I think you're right HYP. The fact that my son was the only player to get a one-day varsity tryout after regular tryouts probably set the expectation level higher. And once he was moved down to 8th, self-doubt set in and "I'd BETTER not pop up here" and "Oh this is a strike, but it's high, so I'll popup, so don't swing, oh wait, it's a strike... half-hearted swing". It really was tough to watch.

[MSandman]

Hyp,

That reminded me of what went on on my son’s JV team. The HVC had a philosophy that he wanted everything on the ground and to the opposite field. In fact, he had the Fr and JV coaches not only teach the philosophy, but to punish for not following it too.

Anyway, the boys had just played Valley at Valley, and beaten them something like 35-0. I walked to the car to grab a smoke while the team meeting went on, and was just sitting there waiting. I waited for the normal 15 minutes, then 20, then a half hour, and finally walked back to the field to find out what was going on. I saw the entire team doing wind sprint poles. Not jogging, wind sprints. There were already several boys who’d cramped up, and a couple who’d vomited. The reason they were running wind sprints, was one of our guys had hit a long fly triple, and in the coach’s eyes that was worth 10 wind sprint poles, and no one could start the next sprint until everyone finished.


What a moron! I hope he was at least running the sprints w/ the TEAM? :thumbsdown:

[scorekeeper]

He would've batted an additional 10-12x? :) And knowing that he'd be getting 3-4 ABs per game instead of 2-3 might have made him press less?

Well, I can’t argue that the #2 hole will get more PA’s than the any position behind it, but I don’t know how many more AB’s he’d get. But to tell the truth, I haven’t come across a lot of kids who think there would be less pressure to perform at a higher batting position. In fact, my guess is most players would feel just the opposite.

[MSandman]

I agree, there's usually more pressure higher in the order, esp. if you're not producing. But I've seen the effect on kids who are subs and only play 1/2 a game or those who usually only bat 2x per game instead of 3 - they can press too.

As much as I appreciate the input on batting order, that really wasn't the point of my original post. I'm curious at what point we start to see most of the hitters on a team display anything even remotely close to MLB mechanics... varsity, college, minors?

[JJA]

Sandman,

You won't be seeing good mechanics on most varsity high school teams. The swings you see most of the kids have as freshman are primarily the swings you'll see as seniors. That's what I've observed in strong programs across southern California. Sure, we have some well trained kids, but by and large most swings at the varsity level resemble the swings you posted. A rare few with good swings (like your son), the vast majority suffer from major swing flaws that will prevent them from playing beyond high school.

-JJA

[songtitle]

the vast majority suffer from major swing flaws that will prevent them from playing beyond high school.


This is probably true. Yet this drives me crazy. It's a shame.

The MLB swing is simply technique - ANYONE can learn it.

Of course, that doesn't mean you can hit curve balls.

[mudvnine]

The MLB swing is simply technique - ANYONE can learn it.

This is intriguing, how do YOU teach it?

[MSandman]

Hmmm... I sense this thread about to take a major detour. :)

And songtitle, I'd assume you have a group of kids you've trained who swing like MLB'ers? I'd LOVE to see the video clips - of course, BEFORE and after. :D

[songtitle]

This is intriguing, how do YOU teach it?

haha, my point is, most kids have never heard of the MLB swing or rotational hitting. Their swing is the product of years of jumbled cues.

[songtitle]

Hmmm... I sense this thread about to take a major detour. :)

And songtitle, I'd assume you have a group of kids you've trained who swing like MLB'ers? I'd LOVE to see the video clips - of course, BEFORE and after. :D

haha, not biting on that one. I think that a kid will be a better hitter if they choose a rotational method/instructor (even MSandman :) ), than if they have zero knowledge of the MLB swing.

[MSandman]

Maybe I read into your post. You said "LEARN it", which I took as "TEACH" it. Yes, many of us have learned it to the point that we can explain it maybe. But that doesn't mean we can DO it.

So which did you mean? :)

[songtitle]

Maybe I read into your post. You said "LEARN it", which I took as "TEACH" it. Yes, many of us have learned it to the point that we can explain it maybe. But that doesn't mean we can DO it.

So which did you mean? :)

A relevant quote:
"We have a hunger of the mind which asks for knowledge of all around us, and the more we gain, the more is our desire; the more we see, the more we are capable of seeing."

[scorekeeper]

Geez, this is a weird feeling. I’m gonna have to defend songtitle’s position, at least to a point.

He’s exactly right about player’s swing really being nothing more than years of getting jumbled cues. However, I would also add that there was also very likely many instances of coaching help that was high on effort but low on actual substance. And the problem isn’t just in hitting. It may well be even worse in pitching!

He’s also correct that a MLB swing is simply technique, and technique can be learned by anyone physically able to do it, and again, it’s the same with pitching. But here’s the rub. As simple as it is, not everyone can teach it. Even the very best instructors in any field can’t teach a subject equally well to every student.

Then, past that things get even murkier. No matter who the instructor is and no matter how great the learning environment, not every student will learn and/or execute equally. What ends up happening is a literal crapshoot of circumstance. IOW, it’s a matter of nurture controlling nature by the effect it has.

If Babe Ruth were born into a family that was different, chances are he wouldn’t have gone to St Mary’s. Had that not happened, chances are no one would have ever heard of him as a ball player. Had Lou Gehrig listened to his mother and become an engineer, Cal would have been breaking someone else’s consecutive game streak. The same thing goes on every second of every day. There are people who never reach their full potential because of a myriad of reasons.

But the bottom line is, if the teaching and execution were so easy, there would be a lot more great hitters and pitchers than there are.

[mudvnine]

He’s also correct that a MLB swing is simply technique, and technique can be learned by anyone physically able to do it, and again, it’s the same with pitching. But here’s the rub. As simple as it is, not everyone can teach it. Even the very best instructors in any field can’t teach a subject equally well to every student.

My point is; there are multiple opinions from multiple "experts" on what the actual MLB really is; but I can tell you hat it is NOT, is simply "rotational hitting" as wrongly identified by a previous poster. I can show you a multitude of "rotational" swings that no where near resemble that of a MLB hitter.

I was certified by an ACTUAL MLB hitting instructor and have been teaching for six years now, with hitters having great success through HS and college. But after countless hours of study, with the use of slow-motion sports video software, I felt that there was still something missing when comparing them to MLB hitters in strict side-by-side, frame-by- frame analysis. This is why I came here originally and subsequently, also post at two other sites that allow ALL opinions/hypotheses and instructional techniques not found at this site.

This is also the reason I take exception when someone trivializes the complexities and difficulties of hitting and hitting instruction by stating that . . . The MLB swing is simply technique - ANYONE can learn it. . . . when I'm not convinced that ANY ONE person has adequately described all of the movements of the MLB swing, let along developed the teaching modalities that would allow us to teach the "technique" to our students.

If they did, we would not have the contentious threads that we do, EVERYONE would still be able to post here, and was the reason I asked "songtitle" to post his methods . . . I thought/prayed that he might be the "ONE".

By his response, I can see that he is not . . . hmmmm, imagine that. :rolleyes:


Sorry I hijacked your thread Sandman, but arrogance and naivety really frustrate me . . . carry on. :blush:

[songtitle]

mudvnine, I agree with almost everything you said.

However, the biggest problem I see with hitters is that they have no training in any MLB hitting method. They receive and use coaching cues that are detrimental to their swing.

BTW, if I was the ONE I would be rich, not poor.

[HYP]

mudvnine, I agree with almost everything you said.

However, the biggest problem I see with hitters is that they have no training in any MLB hitting method. They receive and use coaching cues that are detrimental to their swing.

BTW, if I was the ONE I would be rich, not poor.

What cues? You mean things like "Swing Down and Through the Ball", "Stay On Top", "Take A Direct Path to the Ball"

Before you answer, these are all cues from different MLB players. Would you say that a MLB hitter has had training in a MLB hitting method.

[songtitle]

What cues? You mean things like "Swing Down and Through the Ball", "Stay On Top", "Take A Direct Path to the Ball"

Before you answer, these are all cues from different MLB players. Would you say that a MLB hitter has had training in a MLB hitting method.

Imagine if all youth players were taught any one of the rotational methods.

Then we would have an explosion of talent bubbling through to HS. Instead, most of the good hitters make it through in spite of the ridiculous cues like "swing down", "hit the top of the ball" and "hands to the ball".

[HYP]

Imagine if all youth players were taught any one of the rotational methods.

Then we would have an explosion of talent bubbling through to HS. Instead, most of the good hitters make it through in spite of the ridiculous cues like "swing down", "hit the top of the ball" and "hands to the ball".

See here in lies the problem. MLB hitters, do swing down to the ball. They do stay on top and they do take a direct path to the ball.

Slow pitch softball is the only swing that is truly rotational. MLB is a combination of rotational and being direct.

Swing down=hands are going down, barrel is coming up

Staying on top=hands above the ball

direct path= hands are taking a direct path. carrying the barrel directly behind the ball.

Anything else would be to slow.

[songtitle]

hyp, I'm watching a completely different sports channel than you. :)

[scorekeeper]

My point is; there are multiple opinions from multiple "experts" on what the actual MLB really is; but I can tell you hat it is NOT, is simply "rotational hitting" as wrongly identified by a previous poster. I can show you a multitude of "rotational" swings that no where near resemble that of a MLB hitter.

All true.

I was certified by an ACTUAL MLB hitting instructor and have been teaching for six years now, with hitters having great success through HS and college. But after countless hours of study, with the use of slow-motion sports video software, I felt that there was still something missing when comparing them to MLB hitters in strict side-by-side, frame-by- frame analysis. This is why I came here originally and subsequently, also post at two other sites that allow ALL opinions/hypotheses and instructional techniques not found at this site.

Of course something’s missing. Neither you nor anyone else can compare 8-20 YOs to ML hitters, especially one like Pujols, or any other highly successful hitter. While there is undoubtedly a 16YO somewhere in the world who could be a successful hitter in the ML right now if given the chance, I don’t have a clue on how he could be found.

Hitting like a ML player takes more than a swing. It takes the physical maturity to pull it off. FI, on their best day ever, how many 16YO’s can hit a ball out of any ML park with a wood bat? The fake bats force players to swing differently too. Using wood makes a player alter his swing, even if only minutely.

It also takes a mindset that allows the hitter to hit. Part of that mindset are confidence and experience among scads of other things. IOW, there’s a mental maturity that’s necessary.

This is also the reason I take exception when someone trivializes the complexities and difficulties of hitting and hitting instruction by stating that . . .

Well, why can’t anyone with the mental physical and mental capacity to learn any other physical movement learn how to swing exactly like a MLB player? Mebbe I’m wrong, but I think what your trying to say is, learning how to make the physical movements is one thing, but actually executing it is quite another.

. . . when I'm not convinced that ANY ONE person has adequately described all of the movements of the MLB swing, let along developed the teaching modalities that would allow us to teach the "technique" to our students.

If they did, we would not have the contentious threads that we do, EVERYONE would still be able to post here, and was the reason I asked "songtitle" to post his methods . . . I thought/prayed that he might be the "ONE".

By his response, I can see that he is not . . . hmmmm, imagine that.

I think the movements of what would be a swing in the ML have been described many times over. For proof, count the number of players who have ever batted in a ML game.

Getting to bat in the ML however and having a long and successful career is not the same thing. Just as all ML hitters have different rates of success, so will all hitters at every level.

I agree that songtitle has a lot to learn, but then again, so do I, and I imagine you think you do too, otherwise you wouldn’t keep looking for answers. :)

[songtitle]

I was certified by an ACTUAL MLB hitting instructor and have been teaching for six years now, with hitters having great success through HS and college.


Yet you disagree with "The MLB swing is simply technique - ANYONE can learn it. " Why? It sounds like you have done a fine job teaching your technique.

I never said anyone can teach it. Do you just like to argue and call people "arrogant"?

[mudvnine]

Yet you disagree with "The MLB swing is simply technique - ANYONE can learn it. " Why? It sounds like you have done a fine job teaching your technique.

Because even though the man I learned from was actually "teaching" MLB players, what he taught us as instructors left out an important component in the swing that is found in ALL MLB players and absent in 98% of amateur players.

Spending extensive time researching, studying, and continuing to learn, led me to finally identify the missing element of the swings I was comparing at another site; but that right now, at least in my opinion, is still lacking the teaching component to accurately share the movement with my students.

I continue to work with other instructors such as HYP, JBooth, Boradmember, and others (who are not allowed to be identified on this website) to understand these new mechanics completely before I try to change my hitters and possibly do more harm then good if I were to teach wrong.

That's why I asked for your teaching technique of the MLB swing, because I thought you knew how to do it, since if "ANYONE can learn it" then YOU must have had success in "teaching it" to YOUR hitters.


I never said anyone can teach it. Do you just like to argue and call people "arrogant"?

Your quote was, "The MLB swing is simply technique - ANYONE can learn it" and now you state that "[you] never said anyone can teach it" . . . so I ask you, if no one can teach it, how can anyone learn it?

As for the rest of your statement, I'll let others decide . . . and I guess I won't tell you what adjective I had originally considered using. :shrug:

[songtitle]

mud, I will be glad to discuss baseball. I am here to learn stuff, not argue.

[HYP]

hyp, I'm watching a completely different sports channel than you. :)

Which way are his hands headed?

http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/bondshands.gif

[mudvnine]

mud, I will be glad to discuss baseball. I am here to learn stuff, not argue.

Song, you asked two questions. I answered two questions and asked another which I thought was kind of like having a discussion.

You made an unsubstantiated general statement that made more than one person question and disagree with you and it hurt your feelings . . . sorry about that, but it is what it is.

No more arguing/discussing the issue as far as I'm concerned, I've made my point and I guess you've tried and tired of trying defend yours.


All the best,
Mud

[MSandman]

Hmmm... I sense this thread about to take a major detour. :)

:rolleyes: :blah: :thumbsdown:

[JJA]

Sandman,

Although the detour occurred as you predicted, it isn't entirely useless. The bottom line is that in the vast majority of high schools there is no good hitting instruction, partially but not entirely due to the fact that people can't even agree what good hitting instruction is (the detour). More commonly, it's simply most people who played the game had little instruction themselves and hence don't know how to teach hitting. This is the case in the vast majority of high schools. Hence your son has a huge advantage that will increase as the pitching improves over his high school career. As guys approach the 90's, substandard hitting mechanics start to really show whereas in freshman ball many pitchers are in the 70's and virtually any swing can hit a ball in the 70's.

Unfortunately, few high school coaches are good enough to see the difference in mechanics. They see a kid in BP crush balls over the left field fence with a swing filled with bat drag, and don't notice the corresponding swing mechanics will preclude that success from carrying over into games. So that part is frustrating, but get used to it, it's just part of high school ball.

[Ursa Major]

Sandman, I'm just curious, "red shoes, silver/black" final hitter wouldn't happen to be your son, now would he? :)Trying to cut through the woods and back to the original posting, now.... Yeah, that would have been my guess too, based on the marked difference in skill level. I was about to give up on the lot of 'em when I finally saw 'SilverHelmet'.

Why is it so many kids at that age start their swing with their hands down and their bat pointed straight up or even slightly back toward the catcher? They end up with flat swings that may work at that level, with 70 MPH fastballs and curve balls that are telegraphed and break only a few inches. But when they face varsity pitching with moving fastballs, changeups, and 12-6 curveballs, they swing over 'em 9 times out of ten. I see a ton of disconnection, bat drag and front knee fanning.

Geez, Mike, when I see kids with swings like your son's - regardless of their actual success -- I tell the other kids that this is what they should be striving for and note the similarity to major league swings. If the freshman coach isn't recognizing this and correcting the others' swings, he's kinda missing the point of coaching at that level, isn't he?

[MSandman]

JJA,

I guess I see your point. It just seems that too many hitting threads seem to come around to the same discussion, no matter where they start. But I hope you're right about my son's mechanics holding up when the speed increases.


Ursa,

Thanks for the kind words. Kevin and I have both worked very hard for the past 8 years - me studying and pitching and him of course swinging and listening and talking w/ me about hitting.

I wish the freshman coach had time or knowledge to correct others' swing mechanics. Nope. His solution to the hitting "problem" was moving my son from 2nd to 8th in the batting order after 4 games and the kid who was 8th up to 2nd that you see in the video clips. In fairness to him, it's HARD to fix swings like this and takes a lot of time for a whole team. For the 5 years I coached/managed Little League, I spent a lot of time w/ our hitters and still could only make marginal improvements. However, the sum total of that effort probably helped contribute to our teams scoring the most runs in our league each of those 5 years. We were well-known to have the best hitting teams each year (our pitching, not so much ;)). But that was w/ me having team hitting practices a couple/few times per month at my house, filming our players, and working w/ them on their swings. And as I said, even then I wasn't able to perform any drastic overhauls. Heck, the hitter in the video that's right before my son played for me for 3 years (part-time tho, as he wasn't one of our better players).

It's not looking like Kevin will get to play on the Jr. Legion team either, as I spoke w/ the coach yesterday and they only took 1 freshman from our school (the lefty), as their infield is already stocked w/ juniors/sophs (and lefty's an OF'er). He's going to talk to a Connie Mac coach to see if he'll take Kevin. But if not, then for the first time since he was 8, there'll be no ball played in June/July. :( But we'll move on. He'll begin some light weightlifting and do some other core/running training, continue to hit and throw in our yard, and probably play summer basketball. Not the end of the world, despite how it feels right now.

Thanks for your thoughts guys.

[wogdoggy]

See here in lies the problem. MLB hitters, do swing down to the ball. They do stay on top and they do take a direct path to the ball.

Slow pitch softball is the only swing that is truly rotational. MLB is a combination of rotational and being direct.

Swing down=hands are going down, barrel is coming up

Staying on top=hands above the ball

direct path= hands are taking a direct path. carrying the barrel directly behind the ball.

Anything else would be to slow.




Slow pitch softball is the only swing that is truly rotational. MLB is a combination of rotational and being direct.


why do you say that? when you look at MOST of the girls in the ncaa world series ,,they seemed to have the major league pattern...i do realize you have your run and slap hitters too but the pure hitters seemd very similar to me

[JJA]

Sandman,

Don't let your son get discouraged by the high school program. What you're describing happens everywhere. Generally speaking, high school coaches don't put in the time to really learn how to teach hitting or pitching for that matter, so few can appreciate a swing like your sons as they don't know what they're looking at. Your observation about video is also spot on. I can't say any of the programs in our area use video and our area is teeming with guys who get drafted. Shoot, few colleges even do! (As an aside, Cal Poly San Luis Obispo here in California videos both batting and fielding and their very fine analytical head coach is one of the reasons he has taken a sleepy little college into #12 in the nation this year.)

It's frustrating, but the key is don't let it get you or your son down. Keep working, try to find a travel team to play on this summer, and keep improving. You know what you two need to work on, so keep working and get better. With luck the coach will notice the improvement and your son will move up in the order. But I'll be honest and tell you that in many cases the coaches never change their mind. Fortunately, it matters little for college ball what you do in high school, at least in our area. We've had non-starting guys at the high school level starting the next year at the college level because the high school coach didn't know what he had. Certainly, many colleges don't even come to a single high school game and yet offer scholarships to kids. So hang in there, keep improving, and don't get discouraged. With his great swing someone will eventually notice it. Unfortunately, it appears your high school coach isn't one of them. Believe me, I know the feeling very, very well!

[wogdoggy]

Sandman,

Don't let your son get discouraged by the high school program. What you're describing happens everywhere. Generally speaking, high school coaches don't put in the time to really learn how to teach hitting or pitching for that matter, so few can appreciate a swing like your sons as they don't know what they're looking at. Your observation about video is also spot on. I can't say any of the programs in our area use video and our area is teeming with guys who get drafted. Shoot, few colleges even do! (As an aside, Cal Poly San Luis Obispo here in California videos both batting and fielding and their very fine analytical head coach is one of the reasons he has taken a sleepy little college into #12 in the nation this year.)

It's frustrating, but the key is don't let it get you or your son down. Keep working, try to find a travel team to play on this summer, and keep improving. You know what you two need to work on, so keep working and get better. With luck the coach will notice the improvement and your son will move up in the order. But I'll be honest and tell you that in many cases the coaches never change their mind. Fortunately, it matters little for college ball what you do in high school, at least in our area. We've had non-starting guys at the high school level starting the next year at the college level because the high school coach didn't know what he had. Certainly, many colleges don't even come to a single high school game and yet offer scholarships to kids. So hang in there, keep improving, and don't get discouraged. With his great swing someone will eventually notice it. Unfortunately, it appears your high school coach isn't one of them. Believe me, I know the feeling very, very well!



This is some excellent advice..whatever happens sandman DO NOT let the opinion of one high school coach take the game away from your son..there are a heckuva lot of high school coaches that will play their favorites,or get an opinion on a player that won't change "no matter what happens"..

[HYP]

Slow pitch softball is the only swing that is truly rotational. MLB is a combination of rotational and being direct.


why do you say that? when you look at MOST of the girls in the ncaa world series ,,they seemed to have the major league pattern...i do realize you have your run and slap hitters too but the pure hitters seemd very similar to me

wog,

You may have miss read my post I didn't say Fast Pitch. I said SLOW PITCH as in 6' to 12' height limit on pitches.

[wogdoggy]

wog,

You may have miss read my post I didn't say Fast Pitch. I said SLOW PITCH as in 6' to 12' height limit on pitches.

sorry,, didnt even know we were allowed to mention slow pitch :radio..lol...to a chiacgoan slow pitch is a 16 inch clincher with no gloves

[THop]

Sandman,

I may have missed something here, because I can’t understand why your varsity coach would not allow you to create a developmental team of Freshmen and Sophomores. It’s in his best interest. He makes more money and gets more fundamentally sound players the next 3 springs.

?

THop

[MSandman]

JJA, thanks for the sound advice. Fortunately, the coach he played for this season is just the freshman coach. The varsity coach LOVES him, having had him in Health class. :D And the varsity coach is the one who noticed his swing during tryouts and told him he "swings like a major leaguer". Though I know that's not true, there ARE good elements that with continued improvement will probably serve him well.

THop, I agree w/ you and would love to run a summer team. To tell you the truth, I never thought about it, as I assumed the HS would offer that. So I've never approached the varsity coach about it. I don't know if it'd be too late to create a team to get into a league around here? It seems like they don't bother w/ freshman much and almost all of the Jr. Legion team is jrs/sophs. But maybe I'll reach out to the coach this week w/ an email and see if he knows of any other summer teams, "even if you wanted to START one and needed a coach?". ;)

Thanks guys.

[dannyboy]

2 cents:

a hitter can look hitterish, and still not be able to hit well enough to make varsity.
the only way to overcome what a hitter believes to be incorrect or unfair decisions by a coach, - is to make it impossible for the coach not to play him.
a good hitter learns effective (hence -"good looking") mechanics more from exposure and selection, than from any coach.
and a 'good looking' hitter, will only advance to the next level (hit against the best), if he learns/is taught to improve pitch recognition, strike zone judgement, reaction time and mental game.

[MSandman]

We're working on the mental game now. I'm reviewing some of my books on that subject, but I also picked up a used copy of Peak POWER Baseball that has a great chapter by Dr. Alan Goldberg about mental games. My son read it last night and said he could identify w/ it, and most of the example uncontrollable/bad thoughts he has had at one time or another the past few years.

Late in the season - once he was moved down and took it to heart and didn't perform well - his coach told him "you have the talent to play college ball, but you need to get out of your own way".

We're working on it.