Need help on a situation that happened in our game....

[hitnpeas]

Triple play....


Bases are loaded and nobody out. Batter hits ball on a line to 1B who catches the ball. R3 freezes at the bag as ball is caught. R1 runs and gets doubled up by first baseman who touched 1B. 1B then throws the ball to 2B to record the 3rd out before R2 could make it back to 2B. Before 3rd out is recorded, R3 crosses home plate. Does the run count? :confused: :blush:

[scorekeeper]

OBR 2.00 A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

Rule 2.00 (Force Play) Comment: Confusion regarding this play is removed by remembering that frequently the “force” situation is removed during the play. Example: Man on first, one out, ball hit sharply to first baseman who touches the bag and batter-runner is out. The force is removed at that moment and runner advancing to second must be tagged. If there had been a runner on third or second, and either of these runners scored before the tag-out at second, the run counts. Had the first baseman thrown to second and the ball then had been returned to first, the play at second was a force out, making two outs, and the return throw to first ahead of the runner would have made three outs. In that case, no run would score.
Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out. Runner on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in umpire’s judgment, the runner from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts.

[hitnpeas]

OBR 2.00 A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

Rule 2.00 (Force Play) Comment: Confusion regarding this play is removed by remembering that frequently the “force” situation is removed during the play. Example: Man on first, one out, ball hit sharply to first baseman who touches the bag and batter-runner is out. The force is removed at that moment and runner advancing to second must be tagged. If there had been a runner on third or second, and either of these runners scored before the tag-out at second, the run counts. Had the first baseman thrown to second and the ball then had been returned to first, the play at second was a force out, making two outs, and the return throw to first ahead of the runner would have made three outs. In that case, no run would score.
Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out. Runner on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in umpire’s judgment, the runner from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts.


So the run would count? :blush:

[DukeK]

The run counts, the force play was off as soon as the ball was caught.

[Baseball gLove]

Smart R3. except I don't know how he could have beaten the throw to 2nd running home if R2 couldn't get back to 2nd.

[azmatsfan]

Not if R3 didn't tag up.

Wouldn't they need to appeal to third if R3 didn't tag up. Isn't this one of those 4th out situations? (A quadruple play then?)

[Baseball gLove]

Wouldn't they need to appeal to third if R3 didn't tag up. Isn't this one of those 4th out situations? (A quadruple play then?)

I edited because the kid supposedly did tag up... Froze at the bag... Don't know how he could beat the throw to 2nd running home if the R2 couldn't beat the throw to 2nd.

[omg]

I don't understand the reasoning as to why the run should count.

With runners on first and third and one out if the batter hits a ground ball into a 6-4-3 double play the run would NOT count if the runner at 3rd had touched home prior to completion of the dp.

[AgentX]

I don't understand the reasoning as to why the run should count.

With runners on first and third and one out if the batter hits a ground ball into a 6-4-3 double play the run would NOT count if the runner at 3rd had touched home prior to completion of the dp.
That's because the DP is a force play.

If the ball is caught, it removes the force and becomes a timing play.

[hitnpeas]

Smart R3. except I don't know how he could have beaten the throw to 2nd running home if R2 couldn't get back to 2nd.

It is coach pitch baseball....Runners are not allowed to lead off. The ball was hit on a line to the 1B side and I thought it was getting through as did R2. 1B made a nice catch behind the bag going to his left. Ive taught em to freeze on fly balls but I guess it is time to have em freeze on any ball hit on a line as well. R2 was digging hard for 3B when he realized he had to get back. R3 froze on the bag and ran as soon as the mayhem started on the other side of the diamond. SHE crossed the plate before the ball and R2 made it back to the bag.

Wouldn't they need to appeal to third if R3 didn't tag up. Isn't this one of those 4th out situations? (A quadruple play then?)

I was thinking the same thing.... Quadruple play would have really hurt! Not that the triple play didn't. If this run counts, we would win by 1 run. If not, we kiss our sister and call it a tie. This is the only team we have lost to this year and the first time we played the score was 19-17. Would be nice to know if we won or tied. The kids were asking and I told them I wasn't sure but would find out!

[hitnpeas]

That's because the DP is a force play.

If the ball is caught, it removes the force and becomes a timing play.

So the run would count although they could have made an appeal and technically got 4 outs in the inning if R3 would not have stayed on the bag?

[AgentX]

So the run would count although they could have made an appeal and technically got 4 outs in the inning if R3 would not have stayed on the bag?

That's right.

[jbooth]

Triple play....


Bases are loaded and nobody out. Batter hits ball on a line to 1B who catches the ball. R3 freezes at the bag as ball is caught. R1 runs and gets doubled up by first baseman who touched 1B. 1B then throws the ball to 2B to record the 3rd out before R2 could make it back to 2B. Before 3rd out is recorded, R3 crosses home plate. Does the run count? :confused: :blush:

Of course, why wouldn't it? If R3 was ON the base when the ball was caught.

A run counts when it is scored before the third out is made;

UNLESS; the third out is made by the batter before he touches first base, OR the third out is the result of a force play.

Let's walk through your play;

Fly ball is caught; that's one out, and because the batter is out, there cannot be any force plays. A force play is created when the batter becomes a runner. He did not. He is out on the caught fly.

F3 steps on first to get R1 out for not retouching after a fly ball was caught. This is an appeal play, NOT a force out. Out number 2.

F3 throws to second, and they get R2 on appeal for leaving before the catch. This is also an appeal play, NOT a force out. R3 touched home before this out, so his run counts.

It is not a force out just because you can get an out without having to touch a runner. A force out is when the runner must run to the next base because the batter became a runner.

An appeal for an out, could be a force out. Let's say there are 2 outs with R1 and R3, and R1 goes to third on a single, but he fails to touch second on the way. R3 touched home, but now the defense appeals the miss of second. R1 is out on appeal, but since a force was in effect when he passed second, the appeal is a force out. When the 3rd out is a force out, no run can count, so R3's run does not count.

[jbooth]

I don't understand the reasoning as to why the run should count.

With runners on first and third and one out if the batter hits a ground ball into a 6-4-3 double play the run would NOT count if the runner at 3rd had touched home prior to completion of the dp.

A run counts UNLESS the third out is a force out, or the batter is the third out before he reaches first.

In your 6-4-3 double play, the run doesn't count simply because the batter was the third out before he touched first. The DP has nothing to do with it.

If there are two outs with R1 and R3, R3 cannot score if R1 is forced out, OR the batter is out at first. With 2 out, R3 could only score if R1 or the batter, were put out AFTER they advanced to first or second respectively.

[tinseltown]

A run counts UNLESS the third out is a force out, or the batter is the third out before he reaches first.Hmm, so say there are runners on second and third with two outs. On the pitch, R3 breaks for home and the batter grounds to short. R2 trips and falls just before reaching the shortstop, who tags R2 for the third out, but after R3 already crossed the plate. Since the play at first is not an appeal play, there can be no fourth out recorded, and so I guess there is no way to undo the third out to prevent the run.

[omg]

Fly ball is caught; that's one out, and because the batter is out, there cannot be any force plays. A force play is created when the batter becomes a runner. He did not. He is out on the caught fly.

F3 steps on first to get R1 out for not retouching after a fly ball was caught. This is an appeal play, NOT a force out...
Thanks. I learned something new. Always thought a runner who leaves a base on a caught ball is "forced" back to that base. How about this. R1 on 1b and R2 on 3b. One out fly ball to lf. 2 outs. Runner scores game winning run in bottom of ninth. R1 never goes back to tag up at 1b. Defensive team appeals. What is the result? I guess the run counts and the game is over based on waht you've said. I saw this happen in college but can't remember the result. Also, is it possible that this particular call could be different depending on the league/level?

[jbooth]

Hmm, so say there are runners on second and third with two outs. On the pitch, R3 breaks for home and the batter grounds to short. R2 trips and falls just before reaching the shortstop, who tags R2 for the third out, but after R3 already crossed the plate. Since the play at first is not an appeal play, there can be no fourth out recorded, and so I guess there is no way to undo the third out to prevent the run.

That's just a simple case of the run scoring before the third out. If R2 was tagged before R3 touched home, no run would score, if tagged after R3 touched home, the run scores. Nothing to over-think, that's a simple time play. No force was in effect and the batter was not the 3rd out.

[jbooth]

Thanks. I learned something new. Always thought a runner who leaves a base on a caught ball is "forced" back to that base.

Well you could use that term, but it's not a force play by definition. A force play is when a runner must advance because the batter became a runner and forced consecutive runners to advance.
How about this. R1 on 1b and R2 on 3b.
Most rules discussions identify the runners by where they were at the start of the play. FED rule book being the exception. R1 and R3 would be the start of your play.

One out, fly ball to lf. 2 outs. Runner scores game winning run in bottom of ninth. R1 never goes back to tag up at 1b. Defensive team appeals. What is the result? I guess the run counts and the game is over based on what you've said. I saw this happen in college, but can't remember the result. Also, is it possible that this particular call could be different depending on the league/level?

It's the same in all baseball. And, you finally got it. If nobody appeals R1 or the appeal is made after R3 touched the plate, R3's run counts. It's a timing play, there is no force and the batter is already out.

Here's your play as an example right in the rule book;

Rule 4.09
APPROVED RULING: One out, Jones on third, Smith on first, and Brown flies out to right field. Two outs. Jones tags up and scores after the catch. Smith attempted to return to first but the right fielder’s throw beat him to the base. three outs. But Jones scored before the throw to catch Smith reached first base, hence Jones’ run counts. It was not a force play.

Rule 4.09
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.
EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made
(1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base;
(2) by any runner being forced out; or
(3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

[tinseltown]

Nothing to over-think, that's a simple time play. No force was in effect and the batter was not the 3rd out.Yes, I understand the situation as I described it. Fortunately it probably doesn't come up often during play, as a shortstop would have to overcome a natural inclination to tag the nearby runner, and throw to first instead.

[Ursa Major]

Originally Posted by tinseltown
Hmm, so say there are runners on second and third with two outs. On the pitch, R3 breaks for home and the batter grounds to short. R2 trips and falls just before reaching the shortstop, who tags R2 for the third out, but after R3 already crossed the plate. Since the play at first is not an appeal play, there can be no fourth out recorded, and so I guess there is no way to undo the third out to prevent the run.

That's just a simple case of the run scoring before the third out. If R2 was tagged before R3 touched home, no run would score, if tagged after R3 touched home, the run scores. Nothing to over-think, that's a simple time play. No force was in effect and the batter was not the 3rd out.That's just a simple case of the run scoring before the third out. If R2 was tagged before R3 touched home, no run would score, if tagged after R3 touched home, the run scores. Nothing to over-think, that's a simple time play. No force was in effect and the batter was not the 3rd out.To complicate this a little... say in this situation there is only one out. The shortstop tags R2 (no force) for the second out and throws to first to get the batter, but the runner on third scores before the throw gets to first. Because the batter was the third out, the run does not count even though there was an intervening non-force out, right?

[OnTheBench]

To complicate this a little... say in this situation there is only one out. The shortstop tags R2 (no force) for the second out and throws to first to get the batter, but the runner on third scores before the throw gets to first. Because the batter was the third out, the run does not count even though there was an intervening non-force out, right?

Correct. Because the batter was put out before reaching first base, the run does not count just as jbooth said with regard to rule 4.09 above. An example I like to give to kids for this situation is, say bases loaded (or just second and third to eliminate the issue of a force play) with 2 outs and the batter hits what could be an inside the park homerun but injures himself coming out of the batters box and thus can't make it to first. All baserunners easily cross the plate before the ball is retrieved to first getting the batter out. None of the runs count.

[wilson68]

To complicate this a little... say in this situation there is only one out. The shortstop tags R2 (no force) for the second out and throws to first to get the batter, but the runner on third scores before the throw gets to first. Because the batter was the third out, the run does not count even though there was an intervening non-force out, right?

I had this happen in a game. Bases loaded and one out. Ground ball to short, who fields and chases down R2, tagging her out. R3 crosses home and heads to dugout. Meanwhile R1 has fallen. 2B calls for ball and SS throws for third out at second, a force. R3 is in the dugout sitting down by this point, as it took forever for this to happen. Umpire yells, "Run counts." I pointed out the third out was a force, they did a quick confer and confirmed that, no, the run didn't count. Pool play in a tournament, the final score was 0-0. First shut out my sister ever pitched.

[jbooth]

To complicate this a little... say in this situation there is only one out. The shortstop tags R2 (no force) for the second out and throws to first to get the batter, but the runner on third scores before the throw gets to first. Because the batter was the third out, the run does not count even though there was an intervening non-force out, right?

You're "lawyering" it up.:)

It's not complicated. If the batter is out before he reaches first and that out is the third out, no run can score. No, if's, and's, or but's. It doesn't matter what happened before that, or how many things occurred, or where.

It's really simple. If out number 3 is made by the guy who hit the ball (or became a runner), before he touches first base, then NO RUNS CAN SCORE ON THE PLAY, regardless of when they touched the plate, or how they did it.

He could be tagged out, put out by holding the ball and touching first before he gets there, or he could be called out on appeal for not touching it, after he advances beyond first and everybody ahead of him touched home. If the appeal for missing first is the third out. NO RUNS SCORE!

Plays:

Bases loaded 2 outs. Sluggo hits it out of the park for an apparent grand slam. But, he doesn't touch first while whooping it up going around the bases. He and the other 3 runners are high-fiving in the dugout when the defense appeals Sluggo's failure to touch first. Ump correctly rules, "He's OUT, and NO RUNS SCORE, change sides."

How do you think THAT would go down?:ughh

R2 and R3 with two outs and two strikes.
R3 tries to steal home on a dropped third strike. The ball gets away and R3 touches the plate. The idiot batter is watching the play instead of running to first. R2 heads home as the catcher is still chasing after the ball. The batter finally takes off for first. R2 touches the plate just before the ball thrown by the catcher to first base gets the batter out at first.

The batter is out number 3, and was put out before he touched first base. NO RUNS SCORE! R2 and R3 do not score.

TWO outs, 2 strikes R3. R3 tries to steal home. He makes it before the pitch arrives, but the pitch hits him as he slides in. The pitch was in the strike zone. Ruling: strike 3, batter is out for the third out before he touched first. The run does not count.

And, just in case you don't trust me on that last one; here's the rule from the book;

Rule 6.05
(n) With two out, a runner on third base, and two strikes on the batter, the runner attempts to steal home base on a legal pitch and the ball touches the runner in the batter’s strike zone. The umpire shall call “Strike Three,” the batter is out and the run shall not count; before two are out, the umpire shall call “Strike Three,” the ball is dead, and the run counts.