BBF Progression HoF Election: 1949

[Ace Venom]

PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING!

Format and Rules
Voting Rules: Voters may vote for between 0-15 candidates. Votes will be made public, and voters are encouraged to post their ballots in the thread and not view results before voting. PLEASE LIMIT YOUR BALLOT TO 15 VOTES AT MOST. EXCESS VOTES MAY RESULT IN YOUR BALLOT BEING DISQUALIFIED.
-Blank Ballots: A "None of the Above" option is available if you believe no one is worthy and you wish to submit a blank ballot. This option is not to be taken lightly and it is strongly urged that it be used only after the utmost consideration, as non-votes carry great weight. Additionally, if using this option, please post your rationale.

Voting Criteria: Players are to be evaluated within the context of the era in which they played and the history of the game to that point. Players are not to be held to standards that would materialize at a time beyond the year of the current election. Modern statistical analysis is permitted but must be applied strictly within historical context not to go beyond the year of the current election. Players are to be judged based solely on their playing careers. Other, non-playing contributions may be considered to the extent that they coincided with a player's playing career (such as a player/manager).

Thoughtfulness and Editing Ballots: Please review and thoughtfully consider the candidates before voting, and make sure you have accurately filled out your ballot before submitting. Requests for editing ballots after the fact will generally not be honored. Exceptions might be made if a voter accidentally voted for the wrong player or accidentally went over the voting limit (but I strongly encourage you to do your best to prevent either from happening).

Required Support: Players receiving at least 75% support in an election will be elected. Players need at least 5% support to appear on the next ballot.

Player Eligibility: Players eligible for an election will have last played at least 5 years prior to the election year and have appeared in at least 10 Major League seasons . If a player appeared in less than 10 seasons, he may still be eligible if he had a minimum of 3000 PAs or 1500 IP, though extra scrutiny will be applied. Players will remain on the ballot for 15 years, provided they continue to receive at least 5% of the vote, at which point they will become indefinitely eligible for periodic elections conducted by the Veterans Committee.
- Age Exception: For players 40 or older, they will become eligible the later of either 5 years after their last year of continuous play, or their first inactive year at age 45 or older.
- Death Exception: For players who meet the criteria for consideration, but die before their first year of eligibility can have the five year waiting period waived and placed on the ballot the year of death.

Election Period: Elections will close exactly one week after starting. The next election might not commence for another day or two.

1949 Guide
There are 32 candidates on the 1949 ballot - 18 holdovers and 14 first timers. First time eligible players last played in 1944 (unless qualifying under the age or death rule) or were omitted on the ballot in previous years.

Newly Eligible (14)
Johnny Allen
Johnny Cooney
Spud Davis
Frank Demaree
Ival Goodman
Don Heffner
Chief Hogsett
Willis Hudlin
Chuck Klein
Pepper Martin
Merv Shea
Al Simmons
Joe Vosmik
Sam West

Holdovers (18)
Player Year of Eligibility Previous Support High Support Low Support
Dave Bancroft 15th 11.54% 28.13% (1936) 8.82% (1940)
Wally Berger 5th 53.85% 53.85% (1947) 46.43% (1947)
Jim Bottomley 8th 23.08% 27.59% (1945) 22.22% (1946)
Earle Combs 10th 15.38% 24.14% (1945) 11.76% (1940)
Kiki Cuyler 7th 38.46% 55.17% (1945) 33.33% (1946)
Wes Ferrell 4th 61.54% 61.54% (1948) 51.85% (1946)
Lefty Gomez 2nd 38.46% 38.46% (1948) 38.46 (1948)
Burleigh Grimes 11th 53.85% 60.71% (1947) 48.15% (1946)
Babe Herman 8th 15.38% 20.00% (1943) 11.11% (1943)
Tony Lazzeri 5th 26.92% 37.93% (1945) 25.00% (1947)
Ted Lyons 3rd 73.08% 73.08% (1948) 71.43% (1947)
Heinie Manush 5th 23.08% 34.48% (1945) 25.00% (1947)
Rabbit Maranville 12th 61.54% 68.97% (1945) 56.76% (1942)
Buddy Myer 4th 15.38% 15.38% (1948) 11.11% (1946)
Sam Rice 11th 61.54% 71.43% (1941) 52.26% (1946)
Eppa Rixey 12th 53.85% 60.00% (1938) 37.04% (1946)
Wally Schang 14th 30.77% 42.86% (1941) 32.35% (1937)
Hack Wilson 11th 57.69% 57.69% (1948) 40.74% (1944)

Holdovers Dropped From Last Election (2)
Player Reason Years on Ballot High Support Low Support
Carl Mays End of Eligibility 15 56.25% (1937) 37.84% (1942)
Ray Schalk End of Eligibility 15 25.00% (1934) 6.67% (1943)

Last Year of Eligibility (1)
Player High Support
Dave Bancroft 28.13% (1936)


Penultimate Year of Eligibility (1)
Player High Support
Wally Schang 42.86% (1941)


Holdovers Receiving At Least 50% in Previous Election (8)
Player Previous Support Years with At Least 50% Support
Wally Berger 53.85% 2
Wes Ferrell 61.54% 3
Burleigh Grimes 53.85% 7
Ted Lyons 73.08% 2
Rabbit Maranville 61.54% 11
Sam Rice 61.54% 10
Eppa Rixey 53.85% 7
Hack Wilson 57.69% 6

Hall of Famers
Players Elected - 120
Player Year Elected Election Percentage Years on Ballot Position Primary Team Active Years Total Seasons Living/Deceased Age at Election
Pete Alexander 1935 93.94% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1911-1930 20 Living - Age 62 48
Cap Anson 1902 100% 1 First Base Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1871-1897 27 Deceased (1852-1922) 50
Earl Averill 1947 82.14% 2 Center Field Cleveland Indians (AL) 1929-1941 13 Living - Age 47 45
Frank Baker 1927 96.43% 1 Third Base Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1908-1914, 1916-1919, 1921-1922 13 Living - Age 61 41
Ross Barnes^ 1911 76.00% 11 Second Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879, 1881 9 Deceased (1850-1915) 61
Jake Beckley 1917 76.00% 6 First Base Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1887-1907 20 Deceased (1867-1918) 50
John Beckwith*` 1947 (VC) 91.67% VC Third Base Chicago Giants (NNL) 1916-1938 19 Living - Age 47 45
Charlie Bennett 1907 75.00% 7 Catcher Detroit Wolverines (NL) 1878, 1880-1893 15 Deceased (1854-1927) 53
Roger Bresnahan 1925 79.17% 6 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1897, 1900-1915 17 Deceased (1879-1944) 46
Dan Brouthers 1901 90.00% 1 First Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1896, 1904 18 Deceased (1858-1932) 50
Mordecai Brown 1921 96.77% 1 Pitcher Chicago Cubs (NL) 1903-1916 14 Deceased (1876-1948) 45
Pete Browning 1909 77.27% 9 Left Field/Center Field Louisville Colonels (NL/AA) 1882-1894 13 Deceased (1861-1905) Deceased
Jesse Burkett 1910 92.00% 1 Left Field Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1890-1895 16 Living - Age 81 42
Max Carey 1934 82.14% 1 Center Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1910-1929 20 Living - Age 59 44
Bob Caruthers 1909 77.27% 9 Pitcher/Right Field St. Louis Browns (Cardinals) (NL/AA) 1884-1893 10 Deceased (1864-1911) 45
Frank Chance 1932 83.33% 14 First Base Chicago Cubs (NL) 1898-1914 17 Deceased (1876-1924) Deceased
Oscar Charleston*` 1947 (VC) 91.67% VC Center Field Indianapolis ABCs (I/NNL) 1915-1941 27 Living - Age 53 51
Cupid Childs 1920 76.92% 15 Second Base Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1888, 1890-1901 13 Deceased (1867-1912) Deceased
Fred Clarke 1917 88.00% 1 Left Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1894-1915 21 Living - Age 79 45
John Clarkson 1901 90.00% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1882, 1884-1894 12 Deceased (1861-1909) 40
Ty Cobb 1933 96.55% 1 Center Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1905-1928 24 Living - Age 63 47
Mickey Cochrane 1942 89.19% 1 Catcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1925-1937 13 Living - Age 45 38
Eddie Collins 1935 96.67% 1 Second Base Chicago White Sox (AL) 1906-1930 25 Living - Age 61 48
Jimmy Collins 1913 82.61% 1 Third Base Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1895-1908 14 Deceased (1870-1943) 43
Roger Connor 1902 79.17% 1 First Base New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Deceased (1857-1931) 45
Andy Cooper*` 1947 (VC) 83.33% VC Pitcher Kansas City Monarchs (NNL/NAL) 1920-1941 22 Deceased (1898-1941) Deceased
Stan Coveleski 1934 89.29% 2 Pitcher Cleveland Indians (AL) 1912, 1916-1928 14 Living - Age 60 45
Sam Crawford 1922 92.86% 1 Right Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1899-1917 19 Living - Age 69 41
Bill Dahlen 1916 88.00% 1 Shortstop Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1891-1911 21 Living - Age 79 46
George Davis 1914 84.62% 1 Shortstop New York Giants (NL) 1890-1909 20 Deceased (1870-1940) 44
Ed Delahanty 1908 96.00% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1903 16 Deceased (1867-1903) Deceased
Dizzy Dean 1948 80.77% 3 Pitcher St. Louis Cardinals (NL) 1930, 1932-1941, 1947 12 Living - Age 40 38
Larry Doyle 1926 76.00% 2 Second Base New York Giants (NL) 1907-1920 14 Living - Age 63 40
Hugh Duffy 1918 75.00% 8 Center Field/Outfield Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1888-1891, 1904-1906 17 Living - Age 83 52
Buck Ewing 1902 83.33% 1 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Deceased (1859-1906) 43
Red Faber 1940 76.46% 3 Pitcher Chicago White Sox (AL) 1914-1933 20 Living - Age 61 52
Elmer Flick 1916 80.00% 1 Right Field Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1898-1910 13 Living - Age 73 40
Willie Foster*` 1947 (VC) 75.00% VC Pitcher Chicago American Giants (ANL/NNL) 1923-1938 16 Living - Age 45 43
Frankie Frisch 1942 91.89% 1 Second Base New York Giants (NL) 1919-1937 19 Living - Age 50 43
Pud Galvin 1903 80.77% 3 Pitcher Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1875, 1879-1892 15 Deceased (1856-1902) Deceased
Lou Gehrig 1944 100% 1 First Base New York Yankees (AL) 1923-1939 17 Deceased (1903-1941) Deceased
Charlie Gehringer 1947 100% 1 Second Base Detroit Tigers (AL) 1924-1942 19 Living - Age 46 44
Josh Gibson*` 1947 (VC) 100% VC Catcher Homestead Grays (ANL/NNL) 1929-1946 18 Deceased (1911-1947) Deceased
Jack Glasscock 1911 84.00% 11 Shortstop Cleveland Blues (NL) 1879-1895 17 Deceased (1857-1947) 54
George Gore 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1879-1892 14 Deceased (1867-1933) 52
Goose Goslin 1943 93.33% 1 Left Field Washington Senators (NL) 1921-1938 18 Living - Age 48 42
Frank Grant*` 1947 (VC) 83.33% VC Second Base Cuban Giants (I/MSL) 1886-1905 20 Deceased (1865-1937) Deceased
Clark Griffith* 1940 (VC) 78.57% VC Pitcher Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1891, 1893-1909, 1912-1914 20 Living - Age 79 70
Heinie Groh 1936 81.25% 5 Third Base Cincinnati Reds (NL) 1912-1927 16 Living - Age 60 47
Lefty Grove 1946 100% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1925-1941 17 Living - Age 49 46
Billy Hamilton 1906 82.61% 1 Center Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1901 14 Deceased (1866-1940) 40
Gabby Hartnett 1946 96.30% 1 Catcher Chicago Cubs (NL) 1922-1941 20 Living - Age 49 46
Harry Heilmann 1937 96.18% 1 Right Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1914, 1916-1930, 1932 17 Living - Age 54 43
Pete Hill*` 1947 (VC) 91.67% VC Center Field Chicago American Giants (I) 1899-1925 27 Living - Age 69 67
Paul Hines 1904 76.00% 4 Center Field Providence Grays (NL) 1872-1891 20 Deceased (1855-1935) 49
Rogers Hornsby 1942 97.30% 1 Second Base St. Louis Cardinals (NL) 1915-1937 23 Living - Age 52 45
Carl Hubbell 1948 96.15% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1928-1943 16 Living - Age 47 45
Hughie Jennings 1927 75.00% 14 Shortstop Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1891-1903, 1907, 1909, 1912, 1918 17 Deceased (1869-1928) 58
Grant Johnson*` 1947 (VC) 83.33% VC Shortstop Brooklyn Royal Giants (I) 1895-1916 22 Living - Age 75 73
Walter Johnson 1932 100% 1 Pitcher Washington Senators (AL) 1907-1927 21 Deceased (1887-1946) 45
Addie Joss 1926 76.00% 15 Pitcher Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1902-1910 9 Deceased (1880-1911) Deceased
Tim Keefe 1901 75.00% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1893 14 Deceased (1857-1933) 44
Willie Keeler 1916 92.00% 2 Right Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1892-1910 19 Deceased (1872-1923) 44
Joe Kelley 1920 84.62% 8 Left Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1891-1906, 1908 17 Deceased (1871-1943) 49
King Kelly 1902 75.00% 2 Right Field/Catcher Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1878-1893 16 Deceased (1857-1894) Deceased
Napoleon Lajoie 1921 96.77% 1 Second Base Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1896-1916 21 Living - Age 75 47
Tommy Leach* 1940 (VC) 85.71% VC Third Base/Center Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1898-1915, 1918 19 Living - Age 72 63
John Henry Lloyd*` 1947 (VC) 100% VC Shortstop Lincoln Giants (I/ECL) 1906-1932 27 Living - Age 65 63
Herman Long* 1925 (VC) 75.00% VC Shortstop Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1889-1904 16 Deceased (1866-1909) Deceased
Sherry Magee 1924 86.21% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1904-1919 16 Deceased (1884-1929) 40
Christy Mathewson 1922 93.55% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1900-1916 17 Deceased (1880-1925) 41
Joe McGinnity 1913 91.30% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1899-1908 10 Deceased (1871-1929) 42
Bid McPhee 1905 75.00% 2 Second Base Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1882-1899 18 Deceased (1859-1943) 42
Cal McVey*^ 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Catcher/First Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879 9 Deceased (1849-1926) 71
Jose Mendez*` 1947 (VC) 91.67% VC Pitcher Kansas City Monarchs (NNL) 1908-1926 19 Deceased (1887-1928) Deceased
Bill Monroe*` 1947 (VC) 75.00% VC Second Base Brooklyn Royal Giants (I) 1896-1914 19 Deceased (1876-1914) Deceased
Tony Mullane 1908 80.00% 8 Pitcher Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1881-1894 14 Deceased (1859-1944) 49
Kid Nichols 1911 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1890-1901, 1904-1906 15 Living - Age 80 42
Jim O'Rourke 1901 90.00% 1 Left Field/Utility New York Giants (NL) 1872-1893, 1904 23 Deceased (1850-1919) 51
Alejandro Oms*` 1947 (VC) 75.00% VC Center Field Cuban Stars (East) (ECL/ANL) 1917-1935 19 Deceased (1895-1946) Deceased
Dickey Pearce*^ 1920 (VC) 100% VC Shortstop Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) 1871-1877 6 Deceased (1836-1908) Deceased
Lip Pike*^ 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Center Field Baltimore Canaries (NA) 1871-1878, 1881, 1887 10 Deceased (1845-1926) Deceased
Eddie Plank 1922 92.86% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1901-1917 17 Deceased (1875-1926) 47
Spotswood Poles*` 1947 (VC) 83.33% VC Center Field Lincoln Stars (I) 1909-1923 15 Living - Age 60 58
Charley Radbourn 1901 95.00% 1 Pitcher Providence Grays (NL) 1881-1891 11 Deceased (1854-1897) Deceased
Dick Redding*` 1947 (VC) 91.67% VC Pitcher Brooklyn Royal Giants (I/ECL) 1911-1938 18 Deceased (1891-1948) 56
Hardy Richardson* 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC Second Base/Left Field Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1892 14 Deceased (1855-1931) 65
Bullet Rogan*` 1947 (VC) 100% VC Pitcher Kansas City Monarchs (NNL/NAL) 1917-1938 22 Living - Age 60 58
Edd Roush 1943 76.67% 1 Center Field Cincinnati Reds (NL) 1913-1929, 1931 18 Living - Age 55 49
Amos Rusie 1906 78.26% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1889-1895, 1897-1898, 1901 10 Deceased (1871-1942) 35
Babe Ruth 1940 97.06% 1 Right Field/Left Field New York Yankees (AL) 1914-1935 22 Deceased (1895-1948) 45
Jimmy Ryan* 1930 (VC) 86.67% VC Center Field Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1885-1900, 1902, 1903 18 Deceased (1863-1923) Deceased
Louis Santop*` 1947 (VC) 91.67% VC Catcher Hilldale Daises (I) 1909-1926 18 Deceased (1890-1942) Deceased
Joe Sewell 1942 75.68% 5 Shortstop/Third Base Cleveland Indians (AL) 1920-1933 14 Living - Age 50 43
Jimmy Sheckard* 1945 (VC) 83.33% VC Left Field Chicago Cubs (NL) 1897-1913 17 Deceased (1878-1947) 67
George Sisler 1935 90.91% 1 First Base St. Louis Browns (AL) 1915-1922, 1924-1930 15 Living - Age 55 42
Al Spalding^ 1915 80.00% 15 Pitcher Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1878 8 Deceased (1850-1915) Deceased
Tris Speaker 1933 100% 1 Center Field Cleveland Indians (AL) 1907-1928 22 Living - Age 61 45
Joe Start*^ 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC First Base Providence Grays (NL) 1871-1886 16 Deceased (1842-1927) 78
Turkey Stearnes*` 1947 (VC) 100% VC Center Field Detroit Stars (NNL/NAL) 1923-1942 20 Living - Age 48 46
Harry Stovey 1907 75.00% 7 Left Field/First Base Philadelphia Athletics (AA) 1880-1893 14 Deceased (1856-1931) 51
Ezra Sutton* 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Third Base Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1871-1888 18 Deceased (1850-1907) Deceased
Bill Terry 1941 80.00% 1 First Base New York Giants (NL) 1923-1936 14 Living - Age 50 43
Sam Thompson 1907 79.17% 5 Right Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1885-1898, 1906 14 Deceased (1860-1922) 47
Cristobal Torriente*` 1947 (VC) 83.33% VC Center Field Chicago American Giants (NNL) 1913-1928 16 Deceased (1893-1938) Deceased
Pie Traynor 1942 83.78% 1 Third Base Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1920-1937 18 Living - Age 50 42
Dazzy Vance 1940 76.47% 1 Pitcher Brooklyn Robins (Dodgers) (NL) 1915, 1918, 1922-1935 16 Living - Age 58 48
George Van Haltren 1918 75.00% 11 Center Field New York Giants (NL) 1887-1903 17 Deceased (1866-1945) 52
Rube Waddell 1915 84.00% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1897, 1899-1910 13 Deceased (1876-1914) Deceased
Honus Wagner 1922 92.86% 1 Shortstop Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1897-1917 21 Living - Age 75 48
Bobby Wallace 1925 75.00% 3 Shortstop St. Louis Browns (AL) 1894-1918 25 Living - Age 74 52
Ed Walsh 1922 89.29% 1 Pitcher Chicago White Sox (AL) 1904-1917 14 Living - Age 68 41
John Ward 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop/Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1878-1894 17 Deceased (1860-1925) 47
Mickey Welch* 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1892 13 Deceased (1859-1941) 61
Zack Wheat 1932 87.50% 1 Left Field Brooklyn Robins (Dodgers) (NL) 1909-1927 10 Living - Age 61 44
Deacon White 1904 76.00% 4 Catcher/Third Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1871-1890 20 Deceased (1847-1939) 57
Smokey Joe Williams*` 1947 (VC) 100% VC Pitcher Homestead Grays (I/ANL) 1905-1932 28 Deceased (1895-1946) Deceased
Vic Willis 1919 77.78% 5 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1898-1910 13 Deceased (1876-1947) 43
George Wright^ 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1882 12 Deceased (1847-1937) 60
Cy Young 1916 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1890-1911 22 Living - Age 82 49

* = Elected by Veterans Committee
^ = Played Significantly Prior to 1871
` = Played in the Negro Leagues

Players Elected by Primary Position
Catcher (9): Charlie Bennett, Roger Bresnahan, Mickey Cochrane, Buck Ewing, Josh Gibson, Gabby Hartnett, Cal McVey, Louis Santop, Deacon White
First Base (8): Cap Anson, Jake Beckley, Dan Brouthers, Frank Chance, Roger Connor, Lou Gehrig, George Sisler, Joe Start, Bill Terry
Second Base (12): Ross Barnes, Cupid Childs, Eddie Collins, Larry Doyle, Frankie Frisch, Charlie Gehringer, Frank Grant, Rogers Hornsby, Napoleon Lajoie, Bid McPhee, Bill Monroe, Hardy Richardson
Third Base (7): Frank Baker, John Beckwith, Jimmy Collins, Heinie Groh, Tommy Leach, Ezra Sutton, Pie Traynor
Shortstop (13): Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Jack Glasscock, Hughie
Jennings, Grant Johnson, John Henry Lloyd, Herman Long, Dickey Pearce, Joe Sewell, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, John Ward, George Wright
Left Field (10): Jesse Burkett, Fred Clarke, Ed Delahanty, Goose Goslin, Joe Kelley, Sherry Magee, Jim O'Rourke, Jimmy Sheckard, Harry Stovey, Zack Wheat
Center Field (19): Earl Averill, Pete Browning, Max Carey, Oscar Charleston, Ty Cobb, Hugh Duffy, George Gore, Billy Hamilton, Pete Hill, Paul Hines, Alejandro Oms, Lip Pike, Spotswood Poles, Edd Roush, Jimmy Ryan, Tris Speaker, Turkey Stearnes, Cristobal Torriente, George Van Haltren
Right Field (7): Sam Crawford, King Kelly, Elmer Flick, Harry Heilmann, Willie Keeler, Babe Ruth, Sam Thompson
Pitcher (34): Pete Alexander, Mordecai Brown, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Andy Cooper, Stan Coveleski, Dizzy Dean, Red Faber, Willie Foster, Pud Galvin, Clark Griffith, Lefty Grove, Carl Hubbell, Walter Johnson, Addie Joss, Tim Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Jose Mendez, Tony Mullane, Kid Nichols, Eddie Plank, Charley Radbourn, Dick Redding, Bullet Rogan, Amos Rusie, Al Spalding, Dazzy Vance, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh, Mickey Welch, Smokey Joe Williams, Vic Willis, Cy Young

Players Elected by Year
1901 (5): Dan Brouthers, John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn
1902 (4): Cap Anson, Roger Connor, Buck Ewing, King Kelly
1903 (1): Pud Galvin
1904 (2): Paul Hines, Deacon White
1905 (1): Bid McPhee
1906 (2): Billy Hamilton, Amos Rusie
1907 (5): Charlie Bennett, Harry Stovey, Sam Thompson, John Ward, George Wright
1908 (2): Ed Delahanty, Tony Mullane
1909 (3): Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, George Gore
1910 (1): Jesse Burkett
1911 (3): Ross Barnes, Jack Glasscock, Kid Nichols
1912 (0):
1913 (2): Jimmy Collins, Joe McGinnity
1914 (1): George Davis
1915 (2): Al Spalding, Rube Waddell
1916 (4): Bill Dahlen, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Cy Young
1917 (2): Jake Beckley, Fred Clarke
1918 (2): Hugh Duffy, George Van Haltren
1919 (1): Vic Willis
1920 (2): Cupid Childs, Joe Kelley
- 1920 VC (7): Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Hardy Richardson, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Mickey Welch
1921 (3): Mordecai Brown, Napoleon Lajoie, Christy Mathewson
1922 (4): Sam Crawford, Eddie Plank, Honus Wagner, Ed Walsh
1923 (0):
1924 (1): Sherry Magee
1925 (2): Roger Bresnahan, Bobby Wallace
- 1925 VC (1): Herman Long
1926 (1): Larry Doyle
1927 (2): Frank Baker, Hughie Jennings
1928 (0):
1929 (1): Addie Joss
1930 (0):
- 1930 VC (1): Jimmy Ryan
1931 (0):
1932 (3): Frank Chance, Walter Johnson, Zack Wheat
1933 (2): Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker
1934 (2): Max Carey, Stan Coveleski
1935 (3): Pete Alexander, Eddie Collins, George Sisler
- 1935 VC (0):
1936 (1): Heinie Groh
1937 (1): Harry Heilmann
1938 (0):
1939 (0):
1940 (3): Red Faber, Babe Ruth, Dazzy Vance
- 1940 VC (2): Clark Griffith, Tommy Leach
1941 (1): Bill Terry
1942 (5): Mickey Cochrane, Frankie Frisch, Rogers Hornsby, Joe Sewell, Pie Traynor
1943 (2): Goose Goslin, Edd Roush
1944 (1): Lou Gehrig
1945 (0):
- 1945 VC (1): Jimmy Sheckard
1946 (2): Lefty Grove, Gabby Hartnett
1947 (2): Earl Averill, Charlie Gehringer
- 1947 Negro League Players VC (19): John Beckwith, Oscar Charleston, Andy Cooper, Willie Foster, Josh Gibson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Grant Johnson, John Henry Lloyd, Jose Mendez, Bill Monroe, Alejandro Oms, Spotswood Poles, Dick Redding, Bullet Rogan, Louis Santop, Turkey Stearnes, Cristobal Torriente, Smokey Joe Williams
1948 (2): Dizzy Dean, Carl Hubbell

Players Elected by Primary Decade
1870s (9): Ross Barnes, Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Al Spalding, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Deacon White, George Wright
1880s (21): Cap Anson, Charlie Bennett, Dan Brouthers, Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Roger Conner, Buck Ewing, Pud Galvin, Jack Glasscock, George Gore, Paul Hines, Tim Keefe, King Kelly, Tony Mullane, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn, Hardy Richardson, Harry Stovey, John Ward, Mickey Welch
1890s (19): Jake Beckley, Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs, Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Ed Delahanty, Hugh Duffy, Frank Grant, Clark Griffith, Billy Hamilton, Hughie Jennings, Joe Kelley, Herman Long, Bid McPhee, Kid Nichols, Jimmy Ryan, Amos Rusie, Sam Thompson, George Van Haltren
1900s (24): Roger Bresnahan, Mordecai Brown, Frank Chance, Fred
Clarke, Jimmy Collins, Sam Crawford, Elmer Flick, Pete Hill, Grant Johnson, Addie Joss, Willie Keeler, Napoleon Lajoie, Tommy Leach, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Bill Monroe, Eddie Plank, Jimmy Sheckard, Rube Waddell, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, Ed Walsh, Vic Willis, Cy Young
1910s (16): Pete Alexander, Frank Baker, Max Carey, Ty Cobb, Eddie Collins, Larry Doyle, Heinie Groh, Walter Johnson, John Henry Lloyd, Sherry Magee, Jose Mendez, Spotswood Poles, Louis Santop, Tris Speaker, Zack Wheat, Smokey Joe Williams
1920s (19): John Beckwith, Oscar Charleston, Andy Cooper, Stan Coveleski, Red Faber, Frankie Frisch, Goose Goslin, Harry Heilmann, Rogers Hornsby, Alejandro Oms, Dick Redding, Bullet Rogan, Edd Roush, Babe Ruth, George Sisler, Joe Sewell, Cristobal Torriente, Pie Traynor, Dazzy Vance
1930s (10): Earl Averill, Mickey Cochrane, Dizzy Dean, Willie Foster, Charlie Gehringer, Lou Gehrig, Josh Gibson, Lefty Grove, Gabby Hartnett, Carl Hubbell, Turkey Stearnes, Bill Terry

Players Elected by Primary Organization
Baltimore Canaries (NA) (1): Lip Pike
Baltimore Orioles (NL) (3): Hughie Jennings, Willie Keeler, Joe Kelley
Boston Braves (fka Beaneaters) (NL) (6): John Clarkson, Hugh Duffy, Herman Long, Kid Nichols, Ezra Sutton, Vic Willis
Boston Red Sox (fka Americans) (AL) (2): Jimmy Collins, Cy Young
Boston Red Stockings (NA) (4): Ross Barnes, Cal McVey, Al Spalding, George Wright
Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) (1): Dickey Pearce
Brooklyn Dodgers (fka Robins) (2): Dazzy Vance, Zack Wheat
Brooklyn Royal Giants (I/ECL/NNL) (3): Grant Johnson, Bill Monroe, Dick Redding
Buffalo Bisons (NL) (4): Dan Brouthers, Pud Galvin, Hardy Richardson, Deacon White
Chicago American Giants (I/NNL/NSL/NAL) (3): Willie Foster, Pete Hill, Cristobal Torriente
Chicago Cubs (fka White Stockings, Colts) (NL) (10): Cap Anson, Mordecai Brown, Frank Chance, Bill Dahlen, Clark Griffith, George Gore, Gabby Hartnett, King Kelly, Jimmy Ryan, Jimmy Sheckard
Chicago Giants (NNL) (1): John Beckwith
Chicago White Sox (AL) (3): Eddie Collins, Red Faber, Ed Walsh
Cincinnati Reds (NL, AA) (4): Heinie Groh, Bid McPhee, Tony Mullane, Edd Roush
Cleveland Blues (NL) (1): Jack Glasscock
Cleveland Indians (fka Naps) (AL) (7): Earl Averill, Stan Coveleski, Elmer Flick, Addie Joss, Napoleon Lajoie, Joe Sewell, Tris Speaker
Cleveland Spiders (NL) (2): Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs
Cuban Giants (I/MSL) (1): Frank Grant
Cuban Stars (East) (ECL/ANL) (1): Alejandro Oms
Detroit Stars (I/NNL/NAL) (1): Turkey Stearnes
Detroit Tigers (AL) (4): Ty Cobb, Sam Crawford, Charlie Gehringer, Harry Heilmann
Detroit Wolverines (NL) (1): Charlie Bennett
Hilldale Daises (fka Darby Daises) (I/ECL/ANL/EWL) (1): Louis Santop
Homestead Grays (I/ANL/NNL) (2): Josh Gibson, Smokey Joe Williams
Indianapolis ABCs (I/NNL/NSL/NAL) (1): Oscar Charleston
Kansas City Monarchs (I/NNL/NAL) (3): Willie Foster, Jose Mendez, Bullet Rogan
Lincoln Giants (I/ECL/ANL) (1): John Henry Lloyd
Lincoln Stars (I) (1): Spotswood Poles
Louisville Colonels (NL, AA) (1): Pete Browning
New York Giants (NL) (15): Roger Bresnahan, Roger Connor, George Davis, Larry Doyle, Buck Ewing, Frankie Frisch, Carl Hubbell, Tim Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Jim O’Rourke, Amos Rusie, George Van Haltren, John Ward, Mickey Welch
New York Yankees (AL) (2): Lou Gehrig, Babe Ruth
Philadelphia Athletics (AL) (5): Frank Baker, Mickey Cochrane, Lefty Grove, Eddie Plank, Rube Waddell
Philadelphia Athletics (AA) (1): Harry Stovey
Philadelphia Phillies (NL) (5): Pete Alexander, Ed Delahanty, Billy Hamilton, Sherry Magee, Sam Thompson
Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) (6): Jake Beckley, Max Carey, Fred Clarke, Tommy Leach, Pie Traynor, Honus Wagner
Providence Grays (NL) (3): Paul Hines, Charley Radbourn, Joe Start
St. Louis Browns (AL) (2): George Sisler, Bobby Wallace
St. Louis Cardinals (fka Browns) (NL, AA) (3): Bob Caruthers, Dizzy Dean, Rogers Hornsby
Washington Senators (AL) (2): Goose Goslin, Walter Johnson

Hall of Fame Contributors Wing
Contributors Elected - 20
Contributor Year Elected
Doc Adams (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=639&pid=16943) 1925
Ed Barrow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Barrow) 1941
Alex Cartwright (http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blbaseball.htm) 1925
Henry Chadwick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Chadwick_(writer)) 1925
Charlie Comiskey (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/blacksox/comiskeybio.html)1925
Jim Creighton (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&bid=770&pid=0) 1925
Rube Foster (http://www.nlbpa.com/foster__andrew_-_rube.html) 1930
Miller Huggins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_Huggins) 1941
William Hulbert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hulbert) 1925
Ned Hanlon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_Hanlon_(baseball)) 1936
Ban Johnson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_Johnson) 1936
Bill Klem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Klem) 1941
Connie Mack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connie_Mack_(baseball)) 1930
John McGraw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McGraw_(baseball)) 1936
Al Reach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Reach) 1946
Francis Richter (http://www.uga.edu/juro/2003/shaw.htm) 1941
Branch Rickey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Rickey) 1946
Frank Selee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Selee) 1936
AG Spalding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Spalding) 1930
Harry Wright (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Wright) 1925

Contributors Elected by Year
1925: Doc Adams, Alex Cartwright, Henry Chadwick, Harry Wright, William Hulbert, Charlie Comiskey, Jim Creighton
1930: Rube Foster, Connie Mack, AG Spalding
1936: Ned Hanlon, Ban Johnson, John McGraw, Frank Selee
1941: Miller Huggins, Bill Klem, Francis Richter, Ed Barrow
1946: Al Reach, Branch Rickey

Miscellaneous Information
- Highest Regular Election Percentage: Cap Anson, Lou Gehrig, Charlie Gehringer, Lefty Grove, Walter Johnson, Kid Nichols, Tris Speaker, Cy Young – 100%
- Number of 1st Ballot Electees: 52
- Most Years on Ballot Before Election: Cupid Childs, Addie Joss, Al Spalding – 15
- Number of Players Elected After 10 Years on Ballot: 8
- Number of Players Lasting 15 Years on Ballot without Election: 34
- Number of Players Elected by Veterans Committee: 31
- Highest Percentage Among Players Not Elected: 74.07% - Earl Averill (1946)
- Most Regular Election Electees in One Year: 5 (1901, 1907, 1942)
- Fewest Regular Election Electees in One Year: 0 (1912, 1923, 1928, 1930, 1931, 1938, 1939, 1945)
- Most Veterans Committee Electees in One Year: 19 (1947)
- Largest Ballot: 78 Players (1901)
- Largest Post-1915 Ballot: 47 Players (1932)
- Smallest Ballot: 23 Players (1918)
- Most Votes Cast: 37 (1942)
- Fewest Votes Cast: 20 (1901)
- Team With Most Players Elected: New York Giants - 15
- Team With Second Most Players Elected: Chicago Cubs - 10
- Electee with Longest Post-1871 Career: Smokey Joe Williams - 28
- Electee with Shortest Post-1871 Career: Dickey Pearce – 8 Seasons
- Members Elected as Both Players and Contributors: Al Spalding
- Youngest Elected Player: Amos Rusie – Age 35
- Oldest Elected Player: Joe Start – 78
- Number of Posthumously Elected Players: 25
- Number of Living Hall of Famers: 54
- Number of Deceased Hall of Famers: 66
- Oldest Living Hall of Famer: Hugh Duffy - 83
- Deceased in Past Year:

Number of Ballots Submitted in Past Elections
1901: 20
1902: 24
1903: 26
1904: 25
1905: 24
1906: 23
1907: 24
1908: 25
1909: 22
1910: 25
1911: 25
1912: 23
1913: 23
1914: 26
1915: 25
1916: 25
1917: 25
1918: 24
1919: 27
1920: 26
1921: 31
1922: 28
1923: 25
1924: 29
1925: 24
1926: 25
1927: 28
1928: 27
1929: 25
1930: 25
1931: 32
1932: 24
1933: 29
1934: 28
1935: 33
1936: 32
1937: 34
1938: 30
1939: 32
1940: 34
1941: 35
1942: 37
1943: 30
1944: 27
1945: 29
1946: 27
1947: 28
1948: 26

Links to Past Elections
1901 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77167)
1902 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77464)
1903 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77797)
1904 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78133)
1905 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78417)
1906 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78737)
1907 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79020)
1908 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79393)
1909 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79738)
1910 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80134)
1911 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80597)
1912 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81008)
1913 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81477)
1914 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81965)
1915 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82365)
1916 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82681)
1917 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82940)
1918 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83241)
1919 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83422)
1920 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83665), 1920 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83697)
1921 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83924)
1922 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84099)
1923 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84257)
1924 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84423)
1925 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84552), 1925 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php? t=84636), 1925 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83852)
1926 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84727)
1927 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84871)
1928 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85029)
1929 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85206)
1930 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85358), 1930 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php? t=85439), 1930 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84578)
1931 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85681)
1932 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85850)
1933 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86054)
1934 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86291)
1935 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86514), 1935 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php? t=86576)
1936 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86747), 1936 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85051)
1937 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87002)
1938 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87241)
1939 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87501)
1940 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87800), 1940 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php? t=87854)
1941 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=88041), 1941 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87881)
1942 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=88297)
1943 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89063)
1944 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89394)
1945 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89744), 1945 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89707)
1946 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89923), 1946 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89916)
1947 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90195), 1947 Negro League Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90109)
1948 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90391)

[jjpm74]

Wally Berger
Wes Ferrell
Burleigh Grimes
Ted Lyons
Rabbit Maranville
Pepper Martin
Buddy Myer
Sam Rice
Eppa Rixey
Wally Schang
Al Simmons
Sam West
Hack Wilson

[Ace Venom]

Wally Berger
Jim Bottomley
Earle Combs
Kiki Cuyler
Wes Ferrell
Lefty Gomez
Burleigh Grimes
Chuck Klein
Tony Lazzeri
Ted Lyons
Heinie Manush
Rabbit Maranville
Sam Rice
Al Simmons
Hack Wilson

[KCGHOST]

Gomez
Lyons
Rixey
Simmons

[Ace Venom]

I have Chuck Klein out of order on the ballot. He's after Ted Lyons on the list when he should be before Tony Lazzeri.

[SavoyBG]

Berger
Ferrell
Gomez
Lyons
Maranville
Simmons

[PVNICK]

Bancroft
Cuyler
Ferrell
Lyons
Maranville
Myer
Rice
Schang
Simmons

[Ace Venom]

Chuck Klein fits well within our standards for right fielders. Klein's Black Ink and Gray Ink scores also speak for themselves.

Black Ink: 60
Gray Ink: 166

How did he get these numbers? He led the league in home runs four times, RBI twice, doubles twice, hits twice, runs three times, batting average once, OBP once, SLG three times, OPS+ once (176 in 1933, the year after his MVP season) and total bases four times.

Let's rank him against the other right fielders in our Hall: Sam Crawford, King Kelly, Elmer Flick, Harry Heilmann, Willie Keeler, Babe Ruth and Sam Thompson.

OPS+
Babe Ruth: 207
Elmer Flick: 149
Harry Heilman: 148
Sam Thompson: 146
Sam Crawford: 144
King Kelly: 138
Chuck Klein: 137
Willie Keeler: 129

Klein appears to be on the lower end in terms of OPS+, but a comparison of other metrics places him in a more favorable position.

Total Bases
Babe Ruth: 5,793
Sam Crawford: 4,328
Harry Heilman: 4,053
Willie Keeler: 3,562
Chuck Klein: 3,522
Sam Thompson: 3,020
King Kelly: 2,583
Elmer Flick: 2,492

Home Runs
Babe Ruth: 714
Chuck Klein: 300
Harry Heilmann: 183
Sam Thompson: 127
Sam Crawford: 97
King Kelley: 69
Elmer Flick: 48
Willie Keeler: 33

RBI:
Babe Ruth: 2,217
Harry Heilman: 1,539
Sam Crawford: 1,525
Sam Thompson: 1,299
Chuck Klein: 1,201
King Kelley: 950
Willie Keeler: 810
Elmer Flick: 756

How does this guy not belong?

[vtbub]

Someone want to make the case for Wes Ferrell?

[SavoyBG]

Chuck Klein fits well within our standards for right fielders.


On the contrary. Klein's numbers are ballpark illusions (Wrigley, Baker Bowl) that are exposed by win shares:

CAREER WIN SHARES
Cuyler - 292
Flick - 291
F. Jones - 290
Klein - 238

TOP THREE WIN SHARES SEASONS
Flick - 37, 32, 31
Cravath - 35, 29, 28
Cuyler - 34, 29, 26
Klein - 31, 30, 28


Klein did a lot of hitting for a terrible Phillies team in a park that boosted offense more than any other long time park in history. Here are his road numbers during his 5 year peak, which was played in the highest scoing era ever in baseball.

1929 - .321, 18 HR, 67 RBI
1930 - .332, 14 HR, 61 RBI
1931 - .266, 9 HR, 43 RBI
1932 - .266, 9 HR, 40 RBI
1933 - .280, 8 HR, 39 RBI

He doesn't belong in the hall of fame, and I'm happy so see that so far he only has 33% of the vote.

[mwiggins]

Someone want to make the case for Wes Ferrell?

There's some really good posts for Ferrell in the last couple of elections. Primarily his case centers on his high-quality hitting (for a pitcher) putting him over the top.

[Cowtipper]

Wally Berger
Jim Bottomley
Earle Combs
Kiki Cuyler
Wes Ferrell
Burleigh Grimes
Tony Lazzeri
Ted Lyons
Chuck Klein
Heinie Manush
Rabbit Maranville
Sam Rice
Eppa Rixey
Al Simmons
Hack Wilson

[jjpm74]

Maybe someone could present Ted Lyons' HOF case as well. There's a lot more to him than his W-L %.

[mwiggins]

Maybe someone could present Ted Lyons' HOF case as well. There's a lot more to him than his W-L %.

He toiled for a 2nd division club almost his whole career. If he'd been on an average team, he'd have probably had a W-L record more like 280-210, rather than his 260-230 mark. He lead the league in wins twice, despite pitching for 5th place teams both seasons.

Despite being on the White Sox, and only winning 20 games three times, Lyons rec'd MVP votes 9 times. For a 12 year period, he was consistenly among the league leaders in WHIP, ERA+, complete games, and BB/9.

Early in his career, he was one of the biggest workhorses in the AL. From 1925-1930 he led the league in IP twice and finished 2nd two other times. He also led the league in complete games twice, and shutouts once in that stretch. During those 6 seasons he posted an ERA+ of 120.

For the last half of his career, he become essentially a part-time pitcher, starting only 20-25 games per year from age 33-41. During that stretch he posted an ERA+ of 125, and completed 78% of his starts. He regularly ranked in the top 10 in complete games, despite starting fewer games than most. He also led the league in K/BB twice, ERA+ once, BB/9 4 times, and WHIP once during that stretch. He also finished 2nd in the league in ERA+ twice, and 4th once. Remarkably, he led the league in shutouts in 1940, despite starting only 22 games.

His career totals show him with an ERA+ and IP total firmly within our HoF pitching parameters. 4161 innings with a 118 ERA+. He also had 4 seasons with ERA+'s above 150 to go along with is career numbers, showing that he was both capable of producing great seasons and great longevity.

He also missed three years at the tail end of his career due to WW2 (his choice). Normally that wouldn't matter much, but his 1942 season was one of his best as he lead the league in ERA+, finished 2nd in WHIP, 4th in K/BB. He posted a 14-6 record, and completed all 20 of his starts. He pitched 5 games in 1946 before retiring, but even then he was very effective, completing all 5 starts and posting an ERA+ of 146.

Given how effective he was as a "Sunday pitcher" prior to the war, it's hard not to imagine that, if not for the war, he'd have been able to earn another 30-40 wins, and possibly could have gotten to 300. In the three years prior to the war he won 38 games. Three more similar years would have put him right on the cusp.

[mwiggins]

Wes Ferrell
Ted Lyons
Rabbit Marranville
Sam Rice
Eppa Rixey
Wally Schang
Al Simmons

[Ace Venom]

He doesn't belong in the hall of fame, and I'm happy so see that so far he only has 33% of the vote.

The fact is, he was recognized as the MVP of the NL in 1932 and finished second in the MVP voting twice. You can use the stadium argument against him all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that he was a league leader in those categories and the black ink and gray ink scores clearly point out that he belongs.

[Domenic]

A brief case for Wes Ferrell:

His Black Ink bests BBFHoFers Coveleski, Faber, Galvin, Griffith, Joss, and Plank.
He holds the records for most single-season HR by a pitcher (9) and most career HR by a pitcher (37).
His top three WS seasons are in BBFHoF territory - Hubbell 102, Dean 99, Ferrell 95, Dazzy Vance 94.
His top five WS seasons are in BBFHoF territory - Ferrell 129, Vance 124.
Ferrell was the best hitter on his team in 1931 (Red Sox) and 1935 (Indians).
Ferrell's career WPCT is .601 - 14 of his 15 teams finished below .500.
Ferrell's career ERA was 0.66 below league average.

[jalbright]

Here's why I don't support Chuck Klein:

From AG2004's Keltner List entry on Klein
9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

Klein’s peak came in the heart of a hitter’s era, and his home field at that point was one of the best hitter’s parks in baseball. Both inflate his raw numbers. Klein had a BA/HR/RBI per 154 games of .397/44/158 in his 578 games in the Baker Bowl, and a BA/HR/RBI per 154 games of .277/18/80 in his 1175 games at all other parks.

To me, a hitter in Klein's day with the stats of his career record outside the Baker Bowl wouldn't get a second glance for the Hall, nor would he deserve it. That being the case, it helps cement my vote against him.

There's one other point which weighs heavily against Klein for me--he had a quite short career for a HOF OF (6486 AB). Among HOF OF with less AB, there are two Negro Leaguers with less MLB AB (Doby and Irvin), two 19th century guys with the shorter seasons of their day reducing their AB (Sam Thompson and Billy Hamilton), three guys who at least arguably aren't serious mistakes (Flick, Averill and Kiner), Hack Wilson (who's actually a marginal candidate) and four horrible choices (McCarthy, Combs, Hafey and Lindstrom).

[Freakshow]

Recently, I posted Bill James' latest analysis of Klein using Win and Loss shares. It's here (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1490203&postcount=186)in the Todd Helton thread. The bottom line is Klein is seen as a lesser player than Dolph Camilli, Babe Herman, (Frank Howard) and Bob Johnson.

[SavoyBG]

The fact is, he was recognized as the MVP of the NL in 1932 and finished second in the MVP voting twice. You can use the stadium argument against him all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that he was a league leader in those categories and the black ink and gray ink scores clearly point out that he belongs.


You're better than this Ace.

Don't be fooled by raw anadjusted numbers that were compiled in a field with a 250 foot RF fence.

Just look at his road numbers in his "MVP" season:

1932 - .266, 9 HR, 40 RBI

Looks like Dante Bichette's road numbers in that year where he had like 100 RBIs at home at Coors Field.

Black ink and grey ink are not measures of a player's value, they are part of a system that Bill James devised to predict which players that the (dumb) sportswriters were likely to induct. I think that the average voter here is a little more informed than the average BBWAA voter, and will not fall for the hype here with Klein.

[AG2004]

The fact is, he was recognized as the MVP of the NL in 1932 and finished second in the MVP voting twice. You can use the stadium argument against him all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that he was a league leader in those categories and the black ink and gray ink scores clearly point out that he belongs.

The problem is that the only things which indicate Klein deserves election are the ink scores and the MVP votes (which came, in large part, due to leadership in triple crown categories).

When you analyze Klein's record in context [OOC: this will be called sabermetric analysis in the future], it isn't very impressive. Klein has just two seasons with 30+ win shares, and only five seasons with 20+ WS. He never led National League right fielders in win shares in any given season. That's not a record worthy of the Hall of Fame.

If Klein was so great, then why couldn't he achieve a 20-win share season after he left the Baker Bowl? All of his All-Star-type seasons came in those first five full seasons at the Baker Bowl; he couldn't even pick up one such season at Wrigley Field. Furthermore, all of Klein's black ink points came while the Baker Bowl was his home field; none of it came when he called other stadia home.

If Klein had been able to perform well on the road, or if he had been able to perform well after he left the Phillies, then his case would be stronger, since he would have been able to play at a high level away from the Baker Bowl. Neither is the case. I don't see any evidence that Klein would have been able to play at a high level had he not been lucky enough to call the Baker Bowl home. Instead, all the evidence I see indicates that he needed the Baker Bowl in order to excel. Klein is not a deserving Hall of Famer; he's just an average to slightly-above-average player who was lucky enough to find himself playing half his games at the Baker Bowl during the first 5.5 years of his career.

[jalbright]

Ferrell
Grimes
Lyons
Maranville
S. Rice
Rixey
A. Simmons
H. Wilson

[dgarza]

Clarification :

Is should be DAVE Bancroft, correct? Not DAN Bancroft?

[dgarza]

Dave Bancroft
Jim Bottomley
Earle Combs
Kiki Cuyler
Lefty Gomez
Burleigh Grimes
Babe Herman
Chuck Klein
Tony Lazzeri
Ted Lyons
Heinie Manush
Sam Rice
Eppa Rixey
Al Simmons
Hack Wilson

1. Al Simmons
2. Chuck Klein
3. Hack Wilson
4. Lefty Gomez
5. Heinie Manush
6. Kiki Cuyler
7. Sam Rice
8. Jim Bottomley
9. Burleigh Grimes
10. Tony Lazzeri
11. Babe Herman
12. Ted Lyons
13. Earle Combs
14. Eppa Rixey
15. Dave Bancroft

[Freakshow]

Dean and Hubbell were elected. Mays and Schalk expired. They were replaced by newbie Simmons and returnee Cuyler.

Bancroft
Berger
Cuyler
Ferrell W
Grimes
Lazzeri
Lyons
Maranville
Rice
Rixey
Schang
Simmons
Wilson

[Ace Venom]

Clarification :

Is should be DAVE Bancroft, correct? Not DAN Bancroft?

Doesn't matter because he's headed for VC land.

[NineWorldSeries]

Bottomley
Cuyler
Gomez
Grimes
Klein
Lyons
Manush
Rice
Simmons
Wilson

I was really, really on the fence about Lyons. This is the first time I've included him in my vote. mwiggins made a pretty good case for him. I ended up voting for him mainly because I was going back and forth so much, and I figured that erring on the side of voting for him was better than erring on the side of excluding him.

[dgarza]

Doesn't matter because he's headed for VC land.
It matters because if it is DAN then I could make room of someone else.

[Ace Venom]

It's Dave. It was just an error on my part.

[RyanExpress30]

1 Simmons
2 Bottomley
3 Cuyler
4 Manush
5 Berger
6 Lazzeri
7 Wilson
8 Herman
9 Klein
10 Combs

[SavoyBG]

1 Simmons
2 Bottomley
3 Cuyler
4 Manush
5 Berger
6 Lazzeri
7 Wilson
8 Herman
9 Klein
10 Combs

Your ballot seems to indicate that you could use some perspective on adjusted offensive stats and their value. You voted for 8 outfielders with seemingly good offensive stats, one firstbaseman with seemingly good offensive stats, and one secondbaseman with seemingly good offensive stats. By "seemingly," I mean that I think you are being deceived by the gawdy offensive levels of the 1920s and 1930s which is when all of the players played. Voting for Babe Herman, Bottomley and Combs, but not for any of the pitchers on the list, is further evidence that you have not put the offensive levels of this era in their proper perspective.

[Ace Venom]

On the same token, there's a case for every single person he voted for. This is where posting some other metrics helps. There still comes a point where a vote is a vote.

[Sockeye]

Burleigh Grimes
Ted Lyons
Chuck Klein
Eppa Rixey
Al Simmons

[SavoyBG]

On the same token, there's a case for every single person he voted for. This is where posting some other metrics helps. There still comes a point where a vote is a vote.


Anybody who is voting for Bottomley and Herman, but not for Lyons, just doesn't grasp what's going on.

[jalbright]

Anybody who is voting for Bottomley and Herman, but not for Lyons, just doesn't grasp what's going on.

There are plenty of people who vote in the general elections of our country who don't "grasp what's going on", and their votes count as much as the wonks of politics. Of course, grasping "what's going on" tends to vary with one's own experiences in life. That said, I'm not going to knock the notion it would be nice to fill in the blanks for some folks, but Ace is completely correct in counting the ballot.

[Tiboreau]

Last year the BBF Progressive HoF elected, on 80% of the vote, peak pitching candidate Dizzy Dean. Meanwhile, another good peak pitching candidate, Wes Ferrell, continues to languish among the BBFP HoF's unelected candidates, with 20% less support than Dean. Since they are both peak candidates, let's compare Ferrell & Dean's above average seasons according to Win Shares & BP's WARP3:

Win Shares:
Wes Ferrell 35 32 28 27 26 25
Dizzy Dean 37 31 31 24 22

WARP3:
Wes Ferrell 11.6 10.8 10.2 8.0 7.6 7.1 5.3
Dizzy Dean 10.8 9.6 9.3 9.1 6.2 6.1

Both comprehensive metrics agree: while Dean holds career & top 3 ERA+ advantages (BTW, according to BP's DERA, that peak advantage evaporates when you consider their respective defenses) and both players were equally the best innings-eaters of the leagues at their peak (both with 3 1st place finishes in IP as well as a 1 2nd & 3rd each, Ferrell also has a 4th place finish), the addition of Ferrell's hitting his enough to push his peak value ahead of Dizzy Dean's. Of course, Dean's character provides additional "Fame" value beyond his numbers, but by comparing his peak to a well recognized peak candidate such as the recently elected Dean, I'd just like to point out the legimate excellence of Wes Ferrell's peak, the primary point in his favor for inclusion.

[Ace Venom]

That was a very informative post, Tiboreau. It'll be difficult for a lot of holdovers to get elected with the ballot we have coming up next year. Jimmie Fox, Joe Cronin and Paul Waner will be eligible for the next ballot. This is really the prime year for Ted Lyons to squeak in. Speaking of who we might have on the 1950 ballot:

Will Be On Ballot
Dolph Camilli
Harlond Clift
Joe Cronin
Tony Cuccinello
Paul Derringer
Pete Fox
Jimmie Foxx
Joe Heving
Myril Hoag
Bob Johnson
Mike Kreevich
Gus Mancuso
Gene Moore
Johnny Moore
Van Mungo
Red Ruffing (age rule)
Dick Siebert
Lloyd Waner
Paul Waner
Lon Warneke
Whit Wyatt

Likely Not on Ballot
Frency Bordagaray
Max Butcher
Leo Durocher
Debs Garms
Vern Kennedy
Jake Powell
Al Smith
Pep Young

Will Not Be On Ballot
Pete Appleton
Boom-Boom Beck
Dick Coffman
Ray Hayworth
Buck Ross
Clyde Sukeforth

Rick Ferrell was suggested in 1948, but the age rule won't apply to him until 1951. As it stands, we have at least 21 first timers coming up for eligibility. Jimmie Foxx, Joe Cronin and Paul Waner will definitely have my support.

[Freakshow]

Rick Ferrell was suggested in 1948, but the age rule won't apply to him until 1951.Then can you explain how you're applying the age rule? Ferrell turns 45 on 10/12/50. His last year of continuous play was 1945. Why isn't he eligible in 1950?

[Ace Venom]

I read his DOB wrong. That's my mistake.

[Jsquared83]

New to board, been lurking for a while though.

HOF Ballot

Cuyler
Gomez
Grimes
Manush
Rice
Simmons


-Joe

[bambambaseball]

New to board, been lurking for a while though.

HOF Ballot

Cuyler
Gomez
Grimes
Manush
Rice
Simmons


-Joe

How come you voted for Gomez and Grimes but not Lyons or Ferrell??? You had plenty of space on your balott and they were both much better pitchers then Gomez and Grimes!:faint:

[SavoyBG]

There are plenty of people who vote in the general elections of our country who don't "grasp what's going on", and their votes count as much as the wonks of politics. Of course, grasping "what's going on" tends to vary with one's own experiences in life. That said, I'm not going to knock the notion it would be nice to fill in the blanks for some folks, but Ace is completely correct in counting the ballot.


Where did I ever say that the ballot shouldn't be counted?

[Ace Venom]

Where did I ever say that the ballot shouldn't be counted?

You never said that. I was hinting that the ballot was just as good as yours. Let's not read too much into this.

[SavoyBG]

You never said that. I was hinting that the ballot was just as good as yours. Let's not read too much into this.

Anyone who thinks that his ballot is as good as mine probably also believes that Chuck Klein belongs in the hall of fame :-)

[Jsquared83]

How come you voted for Gomez and Grimes but not Lyons or Ferrell??? You had plenty of space on your balott and they were both much better pitchers then Gomez and Grimes!:faint:

I was real close on both of these guys, actually all 4. I couldn't get over Lyons winning % (although not terrible) and Ferrell, despite pitching in a hitter's era, see him at best similar to a Ron Guidry type who is a borderline-no guy. Plus the 4.04 ERA is an eyesore. I can be convinced on Lyons though and may vote accordingly next election.

[Jsquared83]

Just out of curiousity, why little love for Heinie Manush? .330 BA with 2500+ hits, 121 OPS+ which isnt too shabby..

[jjpm74]

I was real close on both of these guys, actually all 4. I couldn't get over Lyons winning % (although not terrible) and Ferrell, despite pitching in a hitter's era, see him at best similar to a Ron Guidry type who is a borderline-no guy. Plus the 4.04 ERA is an eyesore. I can be convinced on Lyons though and may vote accordingly next election.

Lyons pitched on terrible teams and got little to no run support. He would have been a 300 win pitcher on a team like the Yankees. As stated earlier in this thread, there's a lot more to Lyons than his W-L%. mwiggins provides a good explanation as to why he is a strong candidate here:

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1530827&postcount=14

Wes Ferrell is a borderline guy at best and his case rests in his peak performance. I don't see how he is superior to Burleigh Grimes and would like to hear more about why Ferrell is such an oversight. While I have been voting for him, he'd be at the bottom end of our hall if elected.

[Ace Venom]

Anyone who thinks that his ballot is as good as mine probably also believes that Chuck Klein belongs in the hall of fame :-)

:faint: Each your votes counts for one candidate. Each of our votes counts as one candidate. Since your votes count for as much as his do, one ballot is just as good as the other. You're not going to agree with every ballot you see, but it's not like you have two votes or someone else has two votes to make things unequal. All things being equal is what makes the ballots good and valid.

Just out of curiousity, why little love for Heinie Manush? .330 BA with 2500+ hits, 121 OPS+ which isnt too shabby..

Basic counting stats aren't all that is being used her to evaluate candidates. I generally go beyond and look at the ink scores. The ink scores make him borderline, but I think he still belongs.

[jjpm74]

I was wondering if we will be considering the careers of Buzz Arlett + a few other potential pre-farm system stars like Max Bishop for this project? If so, both should be eligible for the 1950 Player's VC.

What about Japanese players and stars from other countries like Perucho Cepeda? Are we eventually considering them?

[Ace Venom]

I've only just started considering Negro League players and I've compiled another large ballot for 1952. It might be possible to examine other cases in the future, but not right now.

[jjpm74]

I've only just started considering Negro League players and I've compiled another large ballot for 1952. It might be possible to examine other cases in the future, but not right now.

What about Buzz Arlett on the standard VC player's ballot? He was stuck in the PCL for most of his career against his will and was considered the Babe Ruth of the West Coast.

[Freakshow]

Just out of curiousity, why little love for Heinie Manush? .330 BA with 2500+ hits, 121 OPS+ which isnt too shabby..
Players with OPS+ 115-130, 1000+ games in LF, 7500-9500 PA
7 Greg Luzinski 130 7514 1970 1984 19-33
8 Minnie Minoso 130 7710 1949 1980 23-54
9 Moises Alou 128 7913 1990 2008 23-41
10 Jim Rice 128 9058 1974 1989 21-36
11 Bobby Veach 127 7557 1912 1925 24-37
12 George Foster 126 7812 1969 1986 20-37
13 Roy White 121 7735 1965 1979 21-35
14 Heinie Manush 121 8416 1923 1939 21-37
15 Jose Cruz 120 8931 1970 1988 22-40
16 Willie Horton 120 8052 1963 1980 20-37
17 Jimmy Sheckard 120 9118 1897 1913 18-34
18 Gary Matthews 118 8189 1972 1987 21-36
19 Del Ennis 117 7940 1946 1959 21-34
20 Dusty Baker 116 8021 1968 1986 19-37 Two weak hall of famers on this list (Rice, Manush). Plus a couple others (Minoso, Sheckard) who deserve the Hall because they added outstanding defense and baserunning to the package.

[jalbright]

I was wondering if we will be considering the careers of Buzz Arlett + a few other potential pre-farm system stars like Max Bishop for this project? If so, both should be eligible for the 1950 Player's VC.

What about Japanese players and stars from other countries like Perucho Cepeda? Are we eventually considering them?

When Double X started this project, he did say he wanted to include the Japanese, but I'm sure he was talking about something more like 1995 (when Nomo came to the majors) or 2000 (when Ichiro did). Even if we counted them, there really aren't candidates I'd support until the late 1950's at the earliest.

From that, I'd think Perucho Cepeda and Omar Linares should be eligible in due time as well, but Linares shouldn't be eligible at least until he went to Japan. That leaves Perucho Cepeda, who probably should be grouped with Negro Leaguers at some point.

[jalbright]

As for Arlett, it seems Double X envisioned him as a VC candidate rather than a general election one. (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1448973&postcount=100) I'd suggest he show up on the next VC ballot.

[Ace Venom]

What about Buzz Arlett on the standard VC player's ballot? He was stuck in the PCL for most of his career against his will and was considered the Babe Ruth of the West Coast.

It's a real question of what sort of door that would open, but I will put him on the 1950 ballot. I've been considering putting the question out there for Shoeless Joe and Eddie Cicotte because just because someone is banned doesn't mean the cases shouldn't be considered. It's really all up for debate.

[jalbright]

Doing a little digging, there's a discussion of when the Japanese should be considered and how here (and on the following page). (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79028&highlight=japanese&page=2)

I'd say the thrust of that discussion from Double X's viewpoint was that 1995 or 2000 would be when the Japanese enter the discussion via the VC.

[Ace Venom]

It's certainly not out of the question. Take into consideration that we've taken on Negro League players a lot sooner than Cooperstown did. We're not a National Hall of Fame and thus, it's not only affiliated with MLB. There also has to be some sort of sanity when it comes to who would be eligible and who would not be eligible. Obviously there are some PCL and NPB players who, when placed against some of the best Major League talent, would fit in. There may be some who refuse to vote on principle alone, but that doesn't change anything. On the same token, I'm now willing to consider the cases of banned players based on their merits as a player and not their conduct.

[AG2004]

Wes Ferrell is a borderline guy at best and his case rests in his peak performance. I don't see how he is superior to Burleigh Grimes and would like to hear more about why Ferrell is such an oversight. While I have been voting for him, he'd be at the bottom end of our hall if elected.

Let's compare Ferrell to Dazzy Vance, who was inducted on the first ballot.

Ferrell's win share line is 233-95-129. His closest match among contemporary pitchers is Dazzy Vance, at 241-94-124. If Vance is an easy choice, than Ferrell should also be an easy choice.

I think Ferrell's ERA+ of 116 is holding him back. I ask those who hold his ERA+ against him to look at his OPS+.

It's 100.

Ferrell hit as well as the average position player of his day. That's a rarity among pitchers. Hence, Ferrell was contributing with his bat much more than other pitchers were.

Ferrell created 189 runs in his career, according to the baseball-reference manual. If 5/6 of those runs came when he was pitching (as opposed to being an OF or PH), then that makes about 152 offensive RC as a pitcher.

Dazzy Vance created 45 runs as a hitter. Ferrell didn't pitch as often, but, on the other hand, offensive levels in the AL were higher than those in the NL. This is because the NL deadened its ball a bit after the 1930 season, while the AL didn't. The difference in offense between the leagues was due to equipment, not talent. So we'll say that, if Ferrell were as good as a hitter as Vance, he would have created 45 runs with his bat.

That's a difference of 107 runs.

How much value did those runs have? Well, let's take away those 107 offensive runs to make him comparable to Vance at the plate. Let's also take away 107 of the earned runs he gave up on the mound to balance the totals. Ferrell's marginal runs total (scored+saved) would remain the same, and hence his win share total would remain unchanged.

A pitcher with 1070 ER (1177 minus 107) with Ferrell's IP totals would have a career ERA+ of 128.

Therefore,
Ferrell's overall value was approximately equal to that of a pitcher with an ERA+ of 128 and the same number of IP, but who also hit like Dazzy Vance.

Dazzy Vance had an ERA+ of 125, but about 300 more IP than Ferrell. On the other hand, I haven't accounted for Ferrell's play as a PH/OF.

Thus, Ferrell and Vance are very close overall in value -- which is what the win shares lines tell us. The main difference is that much Ferrell had more value with his hitting, and Vance had more value with his pitching, but the overall total is about the same. Since pitchers have to go to the plate, I don't see why we should penalize Ferrell for a lower ERA+ when he makes it up with his OPS+ .

If you voted for Vance, there's no good reason not to vote for Ferrell.



I was real close on both of these guys, actually all 4. I couldn't get over Lyons winning % (although not terrible) and Ferrell, despite pitching in a hitter's era, see him at best similar to a Ron Guidry type who is a borderline-no guy. Plus the 4.04 ERA is an eyesore.

If Ferrell had hit like an average pitcher and recorded an ERA of 3.70, would you vote for him? Ferrell had the same value as an average-hitting pitcher with an ERA+ about 126 in the same number of IP. That's how much of a difference his hitting made.

[Paul Wendt]

Anyone who appreciates peak or prime time as well as career rates should note further:

1927-36 (10 years; 17 innings plus 8 seasons)
2125 innings at ERA+ 128 (ERA 3.72)
1089 plate apps at OPS+ 104

1937-41 (5 years; 2 seasons plus 37 innings)
497 inns at ERA+ 83 (ERA 5.41)
256 pa at OPS+ 81

[RyanExpress30]

Your ballot seems to indicate that you could use some perspective on adjusted offensive stats and their value. You voted for 8 outfielders with seemingly good offensive stats, one firstbaseman with seemingly good offensive stats, and one secondbaseman with seemingly good offensive stats. By "seemingly," I mean that I think you are being deceived by the gawdy offensive levels of the 1920s and 1930s which is when all of the players played. Voting for Babe Herman, Bottomley and Combs, but not for any of the pitchers on the list, is further evidence that you have not put the offensive levels of this era in their proper perspective.

Yeah, I suppose I'm a bit of a tougher grader on pitchers, but it just seemed like most of the pitchers I've seen don't seem like Hall of Famers to me (I could be very wrong as you seem to indicate) . . . I actually felt like being a tougher grader on some of the offensive players I've been voting for, but I didn't want to suddenly stop voting for some of the players I've been voting for all along . . . you could talk me into lowering my standards on pitchers to make them more equivalent to my standards on hitters . . . I don't have a real established formula for my selections, but I sort of base it upon the neutralized stats on BR as well as OPS/ERA+ (along with career numbers, anecdotal stuff, etc.) . . .

[Jsquared83]

Let's compare Ferrell to Dazzy Vance, who was inducted on the first ballot.

Ferrell's win share line is 233-95-129. His closest match among contemporary pitchers is Dazzy Vance, at 241-94-124. If Vance is an easy choice, than Ferrell should also be an easy choice.

I think Ferrell's ERA+ of 116 is holding him back. I ask those who hold his ERA+ against him to look at his OPS+.

It's 100.

Ferrell hit as well as the average position player of his day. That's a rarity among pitchers. Hence, Ferrell was contributing with his bat much more than other pitchers were.

Ferrell created 189 runs in his career, according to the baseball-reference manual. If 5/6 of those runs came when he was pitching (as opposed to being an OF or PH), then that makes about 152 offensive RC as a pitcher.

Dazzy Vance created 45 runs as a hitter. Ferrell didn't pitch as often, but, on the other hand, offensive levels in the AL were higher than those in the NL. This is because the NL deadened its ball a bit after the 1930 season, while the AL didn't. The difference in offense between the leagues was due to equipment, not talent. So we'll say that, if Ferrell were as good as a hitter as Vance, he would have created 45 runs with his bat.

That's a difference of 107 runs.

How much value did those runs have? Well, let's take away those 107 offensive runs to make him comparable to Vance at the plate. Let's also take away 107 of the earned runs he gave up on the mound to balance the totals. Ferrell's marginal runs total (scored+saved) would remain the same, and hence his win share total would remain unchanged.

A pitcher with 1070 ER (1177 minus 107) with Ferrell's IP totals would have a career ERA+ of 128.

Therefore,
Ferrell's overall value was approximately equal to that of a pitcher with an ERA+ of 128 and the same number of IP, but who also hit like Dazzy Vance.

Dazzy Vance had an ERA+ of 125, but about 300 more IP than Ferrell. On the other hand, I haven't accounted for Ferrell's play as a PH/OF.

Thus, Ferrell and Vance are very close overall in value -- which is what the win shares lines tell us. The main difference is that much Ferrell had more value with his hitting, and Vance had more value with his pitching, but the overall total is about the same. Since pitchers have to go to the plate, I don't see why we should penalize Ferrell for a lower ERA+ when he makes it up with his OPS+ .

If you voted for Vance, there's no good reason not to vote for Ferrell.




If Ferrell had hit like an average pitcher and recorded an ERA of 3.70, would you vote for him? Ferrell had the same value as an average-hitting pitcher with an ERA+ about 126 in the same number of IP. That's how much of a difference his hitting made.

The hitting helps, def. But the 116 vs 125 ERA+ is not a small difference. Both guys are close to the HOF border but Vance is more deserving because of his raw ERA and the high SO totals for his era.

[Ace Venom]

I've given some consideration to including banned members on the VC. I've been considering adding Joe Jackson, Eddie Cicotte, Hal Chase and Heinie Zimmerman to the 1950 VC ballot. Any comments?

[leecemark]

--I'll be voting against them if you do. Actually I think a major change such as this should be put to a vote before we even add these players to the ballot.

[SavoyBG]

Yeah, I suppose I'm a bit of a tougher grader on pitchers, but it just seemed like most of the pitchers I've seen don't seem like Hall of Famers to me (I could be very wrong as you seem to indicate) . . . I actually felt like being a tougher grader on some of the offensive players I've been voting for, but I didn't want to suddenly stop voting for some of the players I've been voting for all along . . . you could talk me into lowering my standards on pitchers to make them more equivalent to my standards on hitters . . . I don't have a real established formula for my selections, but I sort of base it upon the neutralized stats on BR as well as OPS/ERA+ (along with career numbers, anecdotal stuff, etc.) . . .

Okay, so why a vote for Bottomley (OPS+ of 124 for a 1Bman), but not for Lyons (ERA+ of 118 in over 4,000 innings)?

CAREER WIN SHARES
Bottomley -258
Lyons - 311

At this point in history (1949) Lyons is about 15th all time among pitchers in career win shares.

[Cowtipper]

I'll be voting against banned players as well.

[RyanExpress30]

Okay, so why a vote for Bottomley (OPS+ of 124 for a 1Bman), but not for Lyons (ERA+ of 118 in over 4,000 innings)?

CAREER WIN SHARES
Bottomley -258
Lyons - 311

At this point in history (1949) Lyons is about 15th all time among pitchers in career win shares.

Good points . . . I may have been looking at the black ink, gray ink, etc. [which may not even be "legal" for purposes of this exercise] when I decided against Ted Lyons . . . and trust me, Bottomley, as was the case with nearly all of my selections this time around, save Simmons, was not a slam dunk for me . . . of course, we could use another first baseman in our Hall as there are currently only 9 occupants, and 5 of those played all or nearly all of their careers pre-1900 . . . I think Bottomley stacks up fairly well with most of the guys that are in there currently . . .

I have no problem voting for Lyons in the next election as you make a decent case about the high career innings pitched/high ERA+ . . . his is a career that is better appreciated in toto perhaps as opposed to trying to find 10 or so Hall of Fame seasons (which may not be readily apparent because of his win-loss records in most of his seasons - I understand he rarely played on even average teams) . . .

[RyanExpress30]

Bottomley (OPS+ of 124 for a 1Bman)

I thought Bottomley's 125 career OPS+ was pretty good for a first baseman in his time, but I could be mistaken (it was one point better than Sisler's though George had a few more plate appearances) . . .

Were he to be elected, he would go in as the second leading career home run leader amongst first basemen in our Hall and would compare favorably with the post-1900 entrants in career runs+RBI . . .

[jalbright]

Bottomley has to be seen in the light that in his time, there were Gehrig, Foxx, Terry and Greenberg. That doesn't help his case. Comparing him to the 1B guys that we have inducted in this project using PA and OPS+, he can't touch Gehrig (or Foxx, who will be here soon), Anson or Connor. His OPS+ looks like Beckley's or Sisler's, but: his peak is nothing like Sisler's (he only topped an OPS of 150 in two seasons, Sisler did that five times in six seasons), and he had almost 700 less PA than Sisler and over 2000 less than Beckley. Beckley struggled to get in, so it's safe to say he's around the borderline, and being worse than him isn't a recommendation. Brouthers had about 700 less PA, but had a 170 OPS+ compared to Bottomley's 125. I'd certainly rather have the Brouthers combination. Start has a 121 OPS+ in 4900 PA starting in 1871, but that's when he was 28 and he had a nice career before that. Start had less PA because 1) the stats start in 1871, and 2) seasons before the 1880's were often quite short. I'd rather have Start. Chance had only 5100 PA, but 1) a 135 OPS+, and 2) was the player/manager of the highly successful Cubs of the 1900's.

If we look at corner OF from Bottomley's time, the following beat him in both PA and OPS+: Ruth, A. Simmons, Ott, Goslin, Heilmann, and P. Waner. He's really quite comparable to Cuyler (8098 PA, 125 OPS+) and Manush (8416 PA, 121 OPS+), and those guys played a defensive position which demanded at least a little more than 1B. Bottomley isn't hopelessly out of the discussion, but I think he properly belongs below the line.

[Ace Venom]

--I'll be voting against them if you do. Actually I think a major change such as this should be put to a vote before we even add these players to the ballot.

My whole argument is that we're not canonizing these players as saints. We're not the real Cooperstown. If no one is going to vote for them, then there's little point to them languishing on the ballot.

[jjpm74]

My whole argument is that we're not canonizing these players as saints. We're not the real Cooperstown. If no one is going to vote for them, then there's little point to them languishing on the ballot.

Adding banned players goes against the wishes of the person who started this project.

On a personal note, if they appear on the 1950 ballot, I will likely cast a blank ballot in protest.

[Ace Venom]

Fair enough. Given that I'll have a mutiny on my hands if it happens, I'll simply not put them on the ballot. It won't stop people from voting for them as protest votes, but I won't rock the boat here.

[jalbright]

My whole argument is that we're not canonizing these players as saints. We're not the real Cooperstown. If no one is going to vote for them, then there's little point to them languishing on the ballot.

Especially given that jjpm is right that Double X did not intend to include such players, there's no way I'll vote for the Black Sox, thus increasing the prospects they will definitely languish on the ballot. See these two posts for Double X's take on the issue: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1341335&postcount=42 and http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1346158&postcount=27

[jjpm74]

It's a real question of what sort of door that would open, but I will put him on the 1950 ballot.

It doesn't really open any doors. The minor leagues before Branch Rickey were independent leagues and had the same reserve clause issues the major leagues would have until the birth of free agency. Buzz Arlett was a player who languished in the PCL against his will thanks largely to a team owner who realized the kind of draw Arlett was for his team and kept him under contract.

There are a handful of other players who suffered similar fates. One other was Max Bishop who played on a minor league team that was actually better than 1/2 of the major league teams at the time. Again, thanks to the reserve clause, his career in the majors was cut short, though not as dramatically as Arlett's. There are a few others as well, but it's up to their advocates to present their cases.

[Ace Venom]

Especially given that jjpm is right that Double X did not intend to include such players, there's no way I'll vote for the Black Sox, thus increasing the prospects they will definitely languish on the ballot.

That's fair. I'm jumping OOC with this one. It's a long ways away, but there's going to be one year where I'm going to have a None of the Above vote when Pete Rose would become eligible. I'm just the steward of this project and DoubleX will probably be back by then.

[mwiggins]

That's fair. I'm jumping OOC with this one. It's a long ways away, but there's going to be one year where I'm going to have a None of the Above vote when Pete Rose would become eligible. I'm just the steward of this project and DoubleX will probably be back by then.

With the Age Exception, since he was 45 in his final year, wouldn't Pete show up on our ballot two years before he was banned from baseball?

[Ace Venom]

With the Age Exception, since he was 45 in his final year, wouldn't Pete show up on our ballot two years before he was banned from baseball?

That is an interesting situation.

[mwiggins]

That is an interesting situation.

In this particular project, there would be no reason for anyone voting in our 1987 election to not vote for him. I'm sure he'd never get the 75%, since enough people wouldn't ingore what happened in 1989.

But, if I'm understanding the age exception correctly, and this project does not put banned players on the ballot, then Rose should be on the 1987, 1988, and 1989 ballots; and then be taken off starting with the 1990 ballot.

[jjpm74]

There is an easy way around the Pete Rose issue as a precedent was already set early in the project in regards to this. We had Ray Fisher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Fisher) on the ballot despite the fact that he was banned for life for contract jumping in violation of the reserve clause at the time (Fisher wouldn't be reinstated until shortly before his death). To this point, only players who have been banned for throwing games have been excluded from the ballot. Not players banned for other reasons. I see no reason why we shouldn't have Pete Rose show up on the ballot when he is eligible since he never threw any games. His sin is one of omission. Not one of game fixing.

[Ace Venom]

I respect precedent in this project and even though I disagree with some of it, I will not put Jackson, Cicotte, Chase and Zimmerman on the ballot unless opinions on the subject change. Just know that I'm open to it.

[RyanExpress30]

Bottomley has to be seen in the light that in his time, there were Gehrig, Foxx, Terry and Greenberg. That doesn't help his case. Comparing him to the 1B guys that we have inducted in this project using PA and OPS+, he can't touch Gehrig (or Foxx, who will be here soon), Anson or Connor. His OPS+ looks like Beckley's or Sisler's, but: his peak is nothing like Sisler's (he only topped an OPS of 150 in two seasons, Sisler did that five times in six seasons), and he had almost 700 less PA than Sisler and over 2000 less than Beckley. Beckley struggled to get in, so it's safe to say he's around the borderline, and being worse than him isn't a recommendation. Brouthers had about 700 less PA, but had a 170 OPS+ compared to Bottomley's 125. I'd certainly rather have the Brouthers combination. Start has a 121 OPS+ in 4900 PA starting in 1871, but that's when he was 28 and he had a nice career before that. Start had less PA because 1) the stats start in 1871, and 2) seasons before the 1880's were often quite short. I'd rather have Start. Chance had only 5100 PA, but 1) a 135 OPS+, and 2) was the player/manager of the highly successful Cubs of the 1900's.

If we look at corner OF from Bottomley's time, the following beat him in both PA and OPS+: Ruth, A. Simmons, Ott, Goslin, Heilmann, and P. Waner. He's really quite comparable to Cuyler (8098 PA, 125 OPS+) and Manush (8416 PA, 121 OPS+), and those guys played a defensive position which demanded at least a little more than 1B. Bottomley isn't hopelessly out of the discussion, but I think he properly belongs below the line.

Very good . . . we can agree to disagree . . .

[Freakshow]

But, if I'm understanding the age exception correctly, and this project does not put banned players on the ballot, then Rose should be on the 1987, 1988, and 1989 ballots; and then be taken off starting with the 1990 ballot.You're not understanding the age exception correctly.
Age Exception: For players 40 or older, they will become eligible the later of either 5 years after their last year of continuous play, or their first inactive year at age 45 or older.You're overlooking the clause "the later of". For Rose, he will be first eligible in 1991, since his continuous play ended in 1986.

Actually, that definition quoted above is missing one clarifying detail. It should also emphasize that the player did not play in the season just ended.

[jalbright]

If you like Bottomley, how do you feel about Ed Konetchy, who had 8664 PA and a 122 OPS+? He's 3 OPS+ points behind Bottomley, but has over 300 more PA (about 3.5 % more) to balance it out. To me the whole class of corner OF/1B with 8000-8700 PA with an OPS+ of 120-130 to 1942 (Bottomley, Manush, Cuyler, and Konetchy) are all guys who don't quite measure up. I'm not wild about Beckley, and the only reason I can go for Sisler is the very high peak (which is mostly balanced by poorer play after the medical problem).

[BlueBlood]

Bottomley (close enough at 1B for me)
Ferrell
Gomez
Grimes
Lyons
Klein
Rice
Rixey
Simmons
Wilson

[RyanExpress30]

If you like Bottomley, how do you feel about Ed Konetchy, who had 8664 PA and a 122 OPS+? He's 3 OPS+ points behind Bottomley, but has over 300 more PA (about 3.5 % more) to balance it out. To me the whole class of corner OF/1B with 8000-8700 PA with an OPS+ of 120-130 to 1942 (Bottomley, Manush, Cuyler, and Konetchy) are all guys who don't quite measure up. I'm not wild about Beckley, and the only reason I can go for Sisler is the very high peak (which is mostly balanced by poorer play after the medical problem).

Actually, had I been around, Konetchy probably would've gotten my vote . . . right on my offensive borderline . . .

[Ace Venom]

You're not understanding the age exception correctly.
You're overlooking the clause "the later of". For Rose, he will be first eligible in 1991, since his continuous play ended in 1986.

Actually, that definition quoted above is missing one clarifying detail. It should also emphasize that the player did not play in the season just ended.

By all rights, that would put Rose first eligible in 1988 rather than 1987. Considering Rose's banishment from baseball was just on gambling that the Reds would win rather than game fixing with no evidence even then that he bet against the Reds, he should remain on the ballot despite banishment. These are the players ineligible at this time for game fixing or simple association with it, proven or not:

George Betchel
Hal Chase
Eddie Cicotte
Bill Craver
Jim Devlin
Happy Felsch
Chick Gandil
Joe Gedeon
Joe Jackson
Lee Magee
Fred McMullen
Jimmy O'Connell
Eugene Paulette
Swede Risberg
Buck Weaver
Lefty Williams
Heinie Zimmerman

Given that these people were not considered eligible under DoubleX, I am keeping with precedent to keep them off VC ballots. However, know that I am open to this and would bring it to DoubleX and a vote if attitudes changed. As it stands, only Joe Jackson, Eddie Cicotte, Hal Chase and Heinie Zimmerman ever had realistic shots out of this group with Jackson being the only definite lock based on raw stats.

As far as the age rule itself goes, the interpretation that we've been using is that age 45 can cut down the five-year wait. It's for this reason that I also have Doc Cramer eligible for 1950. He would be 45 in 1950 and his final season was 1948.

[Freakshow]

As far as the age rule itself goes, the interpretation that we've been using is that age 45 can cut down the five-year wait. It's for this reason that I also have Doc Cramer eligible for 1950. He would be 45 in 1950 and his final season was 1948.This is incorrect. DoubleX and myself went back and forth on this, before the voting started and we were hashing out the rules. I argued for your interpretation of the rule, but DoubleX insisted that a player who played an uninterrupted career in his waning years had to wait five years after his "last year of continuous play" before being eligible. Refer to Harry Davis in 1922 as an example of a player who had to wait until he was 49, 11 years after he ceased playing regularly.

[Paul Wendt]

Bobby Wallace was 50 in 1923, also eleven years after his last season as a regular.

[Ace Venom]

So what does it really mean? Rick Ferrell, whose final season in 1947 was at age 41 before turning 42, would be 45 in 1950. Doc Cramer, an almost identical case, started the 1948 season at age 42 and would be 45 in 1950. Why would Ferrell be eligible, but Cramer would not? Either neither of these players or eligible or they're both eligible. Doc Cramer played uninterrupted, which seems to be the only difference. This is a place where I think the rule either needs clarification or modification. I'm now using your interpretation of the age rule for the Negro League Players VC, which I'd been planning to do when compiling the massive (50+ candidate) ballot.

We agreed to a death exception when it comes to player eligibility, which I don't think DoubleX would have minded. I first used the death exception in any capacity when introducing the candidacy of Josh Gibson on the 1947 Negro League Players ballot. Gibson died in 1947, so I made him eligible on that ballot because it would have been ludicrous to make Gibson wait until 1952 when you're talking about someone who is a slam dunk candidate. I didn't like making Lou Gehrig wait, which is why I asked people to consider the death exception.

[Freakshow]

So what does it really mean?It doesn't matter to me what you decide to do with the age rule. I was just informing you how DoubleX did it. Perhaps he was thinking of Pete Rose when he decided to make players like him wait 5 years; I don't know.

[Ace Venom]

This election is closed. We've elected Ted Lyons and Al Simmons. The 1950 VC ballot will be posted soon and the 1950 regular election ballot will be posted later today.