How is a walk figured

[dolphindan1]

So let me say I have always considered a walk and AB...I know technically its not but how is it figured...If you are trying to figure BA's and on base percentage...

So if a player comes to bat 3 times and walks all 3 he is still 0-0...not 0-3 but how is it figured into an on base percentage...

Like I said in little league I consider it an AB and reward the hitter for seeing the ball and not swinging at bad pitches...I dont encourage not swinging but I will give the take sign if the pitcher is struggling....I say that cause its charged to the pitcher...but an RBI hit is rewarded to the hitter and charged to the pitcher...I know technically I am wrong

also explain to me why a bunt foul on 2 strikes is an out? that one confuses me...why would it not just be a foul ball and get another pitch?

[coach scotty]

So if a player comes to bat 3 times and walks all 3 he is still 0-0...not 0-3 but how is it figured into an on base percentage...

Batting average is hits/at bats

OBP is hits + walks + hit by pitch/at bats + walks + hit by pitch + sacrifices

On base percent factors walks batting average does not.

also explain to me why a bunt foul on 2 strikes is an out? that one confuses me...why would it not just be a foul ball and get another pitch?

Because it's what the rule book says.

[dolphindan1]

Batting average is hits/at bats

OBP is hits + walks + hit by pitch/at bats + walks + hit by pitch + sacrifices

On base percent factors walks batting average does not.



Because it's what the rule book says.

So whats the better stat to keep up OBP or BA....

Oh and as far as the bunting...I know its a rule but I am wondering why? there has to be some simple reason why it was made a rule...doesnt it

[coach scotty]

So whats the better stat to keep up OBP or BA....

I keep both and for younger (coach pitch) I use made it to first/ plate appearances so I don't have to factor in errors. As far a a stat useful for coaching I like OBP + Slugging.

Oh and as far as the bunting...I know its a rule but I am wondering why? there has to be some simple reason why it was made a rule...doesnt it

:) I don't know, never thought about it but I'm sure someone on this board probably has the answer and will give it after the sun comes up.

[Lefty07]

also explain to me why a bunt foul on 2 strikes is an out? that one confuses me...why would it not just be a foul ball and get another pitch?

Dolphin, you might want to check with the ump thread but two things came to me instantly.

1. If your team is facing an "ace", you're leadoff guy can just stand up there and bunt every ball foul until the guy reaches his pitch-count.

2. This is probably more likely for the creation of the rule...a batter could just stand up there and bunt strikes foul while taking balls. Every player would walk. The game would never end!

[AgentX]

This is probably more likely for the creation of the rule...a batter could just stand up there and bunt strikes foul while taking balls. Every player would walk. The game would never end!
Absolutely.

It's not hard to touch a ball in the strike zone with the bat while in bunt position.

[bbb3601]

I just love tracking on base%. I think it is undervalued at this level and in some cases the most important. Some kids just know how to get on base. I can't explain it, but we have a few that have low averages, but are on base over 60% of the time. If you have a few real good eyes and or speed demons in front of your big boys, scoring runs isn't a issue. And no these numbers aren't from players being made to take pitch's some kid's just get it!? I would also be interested (this is something I look at on our team) in knowing if any of you track your teams average number of pitch's seen per ab? Is this a real stat, and does it have a name, or am I just too bored?

[jazzmik68]

Batting average is hits/at bats

OBP is hits + walks + hit by pitch/at bats + walks + hit by pitch + sacrifices

On base percent factors walks batting average does not.



Because it's what the rule book says.


FYI...

A sacrifice bunt does NOT count as an at bat and will not figure into your OBP. Where as a SAC FLY will count as if you were 0 for 1 towards calculating OBP.

Your OBP can actually be lower than your BA if you have a lot of sac flies.

The reason being is that when you hit a sac fly your "intent" was not to give yourself up.

[scorekeeper]

I just love tracking on base%. I think it is undervalued at this level and in some cases the most important. Some kids just know how to get on base. I can't explain it, but we have a few that have low averages, but are on base over 60% of the time. If you have a few real good eyes and or speed demons in front of your big boys, scoring runs isn't a issue. And no these numbers aren't from players being made to take pitch's some kid's just get it!?

OBP is the modern era’s BA, and while it is generally undervalued, in circles where baseball knowledge is generally higher than your typical youth league knowledge, it has risen to a very highly valued place. That’s because it takes in much more of a players offensive performance than simple BA.

However, IMHO Coach Scotty is definitely on the right track with this:

I keep both and for younger (coach pitch) I use made it to first/ plate appearances so I don't have to factor in errors. As far a a stat useful for coaching I like OBP + Slugging.

I do the same thing with Reached Base Average, but as you can see if you look at it, I take in reaching base safely in any manner, rather than just including errors, see http://www.infosports.com/scorekeeper/images/9batting.pdf page 20. That way I eliminate any scorekeeping problems, coach biases, etc..

His use of OPS, which is OBP+SLGP is also coming more and more into vogue. Since Billy Beane’s book, Moneyball was published, OPS * 3 has gained a lot of supporters too. That’s because it gives more value to OBP than SLGP. If you look at page 22 of that URL, you’ll be able to see the two compared. If you look closely, you’ll see that by multiplying the OBP by 3, how the players line I is slightly different.

I would also be interested (this is something I look at on our team) in knowing if any of you track your teams average number of pitch's seen per ab? Is this a real stat, and does it have a name, or am I just too bored?

Of course it’s a real stat. But then again, anytime you look at numbers based on player performance, it’s a stat. ;)

If you go to that same URL and page 29, you’ll see how I do it. If you notice though, while I do many things in terms of At Bats, more often I use Plate Appearances and sometimes both. The reason is, especially for things like this, computing a pitch per AB doesn’t really tell you squat. The reason is, no pitches would be counted for walks, HBP’s, or sacs, and that would muck up the average so bad, it wouldn’t have any real meaning.

But the most important thing when you do something like that, is to compare it to something so the person looking at it has some way to judge its worth. FI, on that particular stat, I also list BA and OPB.

[bbb3601]

Wow!! I wished you lived in Ohio so I could be your understudy. The coaching staff must love you.

[davewashere]

2. This is probably more likely for the creation of the rule...a batter could just stand up there and bunt strikes foul while taking balls. Every player would walk. The game would never end!

If I'm not mistaken, during the early years of the sport this was not a rule, and some players would just foul off pitch after pitch until they got one they wanted or tired the pitcher/induced a walk. That rule has to exist for the integrity of the game. The same thing goes for the rule that says a baserunner tagging up on a fly ball may leave the base as soon as the ball is touched by a fielder, not when it's caught. There was once a time without this rule, and some outfielders became skillful at "juggling" the ball without actually catching it. You could essentially just juggle the ball back to the infield so the runner wouldn't be able to advance. I can just imagine a grown adult athlete playing "hot potato" with a ball while walking it across the field.

[scorekeeper]

Wow!! I wished you lived in Ohio so I could be your understudy. The coaching staff must love you.

I’m from Ohio. Born and raised in Hubbard.

Actually, most of the coaching staff is totally indifferent and only want to see the same tired old crap like ERA and BA. The reason they’re indifferent, is because they look at the different ways the numbers are presented, and are overwhelmed. Unfortunately, while to me each and every one of those pages makes perfect sense, and I have a solid understanding of how they show only one tiny piece of a much larger pie, not everyone has that same understanding, and simply doesn’t want to invest the time that it would take to learn about it.

However, the coaches who do use them, do love them. What I do is tell the HC to pick the stats he wants to see, and the order he wants to see them. Then I set up a button that will print just those things and in that order, so he doesn’t have to pick through them all.

Now here’s something you prolly won’t believe, but I assure you its true. The people the stats mean the most to are the parents. Although the players have total access to them, the truth is, in general they really don’t care a whole lot. But the parents have a totally different take.

Once people get to know me and learn to trust that I’m not trying to screw one kid or favor another, and know and apply the rules fairly, they fall in love with the things. You wouldn’t believe some of the questions I get or the times someone catches my failure in setting up a math formula, or having a column heading wrong. You can’t do those things unless you’re looking at them in great detail.

I honestly believe that most of the problems with parents, stats, and coaches comes from a lack of trust and confidence. Heck, what would any normal person think if they were told they couldn’t see the team stats? To me that would do nothing but send up big red flares indicating there was something rotten in Denmark!

Anytime you’d like, you’re welcome to PM me and ask any questions you’d like. I may not be the quickest answer in the world, but I assure you I’m one of the most thorough. Ask Mudvine. ;)

[bbb3601]

I am a novice at this point, but I will share a page I have had problems. Parents are usually the only people who care about stats. If you have a couple daddy ballers it is a full time job. I have got some calls at midnight questioning hits etc. It's kinda funny. Hubbard is nice. I live in Logan now, but was raised in Grove City. The pitching numbers are what I struggle most with because they can get confusing to a newbie, and some of that go's back to my pitch count thread. I erased the players names. I would be interested to see if you can guess the Pithing Coach's kid

Player Games W-L-S IP Hits 2B 3B HR ER Runs SO BB IW WP Balks ERA
10 2-2-1 24.0 26 5 0 0 21 23 25 19 0 0 0 5.250
7 4-2-0 25.1 27 6 2 1 19 21 20 7 0 0 0 4.500
6 2-1-0 11.1 14 2 0 0 12 15 8 8 0 0 0 6.353
3 0-0-2 2.0 5 0 2 0 4 7 5 2 0 0 0 12.000
2 0-0-0 2.0 0 0 0 0 2 2 1 5 0 0 0 6.000 11 2-2-0 29.2 37 9 0 0 27 30 42 18 0 0 0 5.461
3 0-0-1 2.1 7 2 0 0 9 9 4 5 0 0 0 23.143 4 2-0-0 9.0 10 0 0 0 6 7 8 2 0 0 0 4.000
Total 105.2 126 24 4 1 100 114 113 66 0 0 0 5.678

[scorekeeper]

I am a novice at this point, but I will share a page I have had problems. Parents are usually the only people who care about stats. If you have a couple daddy ballers it is a full time job. I have got some calls at midnight questioning hits etc. It's kinda funny. Hubbard is nice. I live in Logan now, but was raised in Grove City. The pitching numbers are what I struggle most with because they can get confusing to a newbie, and some of that go's back to my pitch count thread. I erased the players names. I would be interested to see if you can guess the Pithing Coach's kid

Player Games W-L-S IP Hits 2B 3B HR ER Runs SO BB IW WP Balks ERA
10 2-2-1 24.0 26 5 0 0 21 23 25 19 0 0 0 5.250
7 4-2-0 25.1 27 6 2 1 19 21 20 7 0 0 0 4.500
6 2-1-0 11.1 14 2 0 0 12 15 8 8 0 0 0 6.353
3 0-0-2 2.0 5 0 2 0 4 7 5 2 0 0 0 12.000
2 0-0-0 2.0 0 0 0 0 2 2 1 5 0 0 0 6.000 11 2-2-0 29.2 37 9 0 0 27 30 42 18 0 0 0 5.461
3 0-0-1 2.1 7 2 0 0 9 9 4 5 0 0 0 23.143 4 2-0-0 9.0 10 0 0 0 6 7 8 2 0 0 0 4.000
Total 105.2 126 24 4 1 100 114 113 66 0 0 0 5.678


The kid who has the 5.41 ERA.

Can’t help but make a couple of observations.

Not 1 wild pitch in 105 and 2/3rds innings? Either you don’t track them, or that’s the weirdest pitching staff I’ve ever heard of.

Although technically ERA could be taken out to infinite decimal places, its customary to only take it to 2 rounded. It really doesn’t make a lot of difference except that there’s fewer numbers and makes the report seem less “bizzy”.

Try doing WHIP too. The equation’s simple. (Walks + Hits) / IPs. I like to include HBP, but I see you don’t track it, so its no big deal.

5.25 - 1.8
4.50 - 1.3
6.35 - 1.9
12.00 - 3.5
6.00 - 2.5
5.46 - 1.9
23.14 - 5.1
4.00 - 1.3

[bbb3601]

The kid who has the 5.41 ERA.

Can’t help but make a couple of observations.

Not 1 wild pitch in 105 and 2/3rds innings? Either you don’t track them, or that’s the weirdest pitching staff I’ve ever heard of.

Although technically ERA could be taken out to infinite decimal places, its customary to only take it to 2 rounded. It really doesn’t make a lot of difference except that there’s fewer numbers and makes the report seem less “bizzy”.

Try doing WHIP too. The equation’s simple. (Walks + Hits) / IPs. I like to include HBP, but I see you don’t track it, so its no big deal.

5.25 - 1.8
4.50 - 1.3
6.35 - 1.9
12.00 - 3.5
6.00 - 2.5
5.46 - 1.9
23.14 - 5.1
4.00 - 1.3

Well you guessed it what number made it obvious. I wanted to track wp's but the pitching coach (daddy baller) said it was demoralizing to some pitchers!! That being said we haven't hit one kid this year honestly. I want to get better at this but like I said this is my first year and I get lost very very easily. Now I am sure you can also guess which kid is mine, and why I posed the calling pitch question because he clearly doesn't know his staff with some of the bb totals. I will put up my feeble offense numbers which look much worse out of my confusion.

BATTING

Player Games PA AB B.Avg Hits Runs 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO ROE HBP Sac SB OB% Slug
Pct Fielding Catcher
A PO E Thrown
Out SB PB
20 64 53 .377 20 23 6 0 1 15 11 3 9 0 0 28 .625 .547 0 0 0 0 0 0
20 64 42 .381 16 20 2 0 0 8 20 6 3 1 1 17 .625 .429 0 0 0 0 0 0 19 47 38 .237 9 9 2 0 0 4 8 6 3 1 0 7 .447 .289 0 0 0 0 0 0 20 52 44 .182 8 5 1 0 0 7 7 9 3 0 1 7 .346 .205 0 0 0 0 0 0
20 54 36 .250 9 14 0 0 0 10 18 9 5 0 0 22 .593 .250 0 0 0 0 0 0 19 56 50 .220 11 15 2 0 0 16 6 7 6 0 0 20 .411 .260 0 0 0 0 0 0 20 61 53 .377 20 19 3 1 1 21 6 13 0 2 0 15 .459 .528 0 0 0 0 0 0
20 59 52 .500 26 27 10 2 1 28 6 3 6 0 1 33 .644 .827 0 0 0 0 0 0
19 50 43 .279 12 9 3 0 0 12 5 8 0 2 0 19 .380 .349 0 0 0 0 0 0
20 63 57 .421 24 14 2 0 0 15 5 3 6 1 0 22 .571 .456 0 0 0 0 0 0
Total 570 468 .331 155 155 31 3 3 136 92 67 41 7 3 190 .518 .429 0 0 0 0 0 0

Correct I am not allowed to post errors on our site.

[scorekeeper]

Well you guessed it what number made it obvious. I wanted to track wp's but the pitching coach (daddy baller) said it was demoralizing to some pitchers!! That being said we haven't hit one kid this year honestly. I want to get better at this but like I said this is my first year and I get lost very very easily. Now I am sure you can also guess which kid is mine, and why I posed the calling pitch question because he clearly doesn't know his staff with some of the bb totals. I will put up my feeble offense numbers which look much worse out of my confusion.
…
Correct I am not allowed to post errors on our site.

The number was the most IP’s. Of course that was only a guess, but it seems to work out that the pitching coach’s kid will generally get the most opportunities to pitch, and the hitting coach’s kid the most opportunities to hit.

Guessing which kid is the SK’s kid often means to look for one of the “best” BA’s, fewest ROE’s, and most RBI’s. That often isn’t because they consciously cheat, but rather it’s the natural bias one has for their own child. That’s why I like the idea of a “Reached Base Average” that includes reaching base any way possible, and “Runs Produced” rather than either runs scored or RBIs by themselves.

If that pitching coach said that to me, I’d have a little meeting between the head coach, the pitching coach, and myself. If the head coach agreed with the pitching coach, I’d hand the book over right then and there. If he didn’t agree, I’d expect that that would be the very last time the PC would ever mention it.

Having a pitching staff that hasn’t Doinked anyone is absolutely fantastic!

I’m not quite getting why you said you’re not allowed to post errors. If you said that referring to Wild Pitches, let’s get you squared away on something. A wild pitch is not an error. It’s a pitcher’s mistake to be sure, but its not an error. That’s proven by the fact that in a player reaches 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and finally scores on a WP, its still an earned run.

But, even though a passed ball isn’t technically an error either, since the rules for determining earned runs say the reconstruction of an inning should take place without the errors, including passed balls, it gets counted as an error in that case. A balk falls into the same category. All 3 of those things is a way to account for a runner(s) moving up a base. Its only treated as an error if it’s a passed ball.

I’m not sticking up for the PC here, but something you’ll learn as you score for a while longer and do the stats, is that you shouldn’t make rash judgments about a PC based solely on your team’s pitcher’s performance. You can only make a judgment about your pitchers by comparing them to pitchers from other teams.

FI, you may think that your pitchers aren’t very well coached because they walk a lot of hitters, but it may well be that as a team they walk less than other teams. That’s why for every game, I make a pitching record for the other teams pitchers. I don’t do one for every pitcher, but rather a composite one for the entire game. That way I can see how our opponent pitchers compare to ours.

If you’re doing the best you can, don’t ever denigrate your data! Heck, I started keeping score in the early ‘50s as kid, and have been scoring games as the team SK for just about 15 years now, and I still screw up more than I like to admit! I’ve been doing the stats for that long too, and I can guarantee you that at the beginning I had lots of trouble too.

Just do the best you can, keep reading rule 10.0, and learn the definitions in rule 2.00! I suggest you use OBR that you can get on MLB.com as your Rosetta Stone. All the other rule sets come from it, and it explains things fairly well. Also get hold of a copy of the NCAA rules too. They really do a bang up job of explaining a lot of things.

BTW, when you want to post data, either take a picture of it or make a pdf. Otherwise its very difficult to get the data to line up in columns.

[bbb3601]

Very nice. Thank you for the advice. I do keep track of errors and put outs on my own, but I cant post them. I do want to get some new software, and I will be tracking WHIP. My kid is the .381 avg. and the 4.50 era. The reason for not posting errors etc. Is that the coach's claim it can upset, and demoralize the kids. I think it is so the parents dont complain. I do score the other team pretty close to ours, and we have more bb in all games but 1. we have talked and now he is only going to call the pitch and the kid gets to pick location. so we will see. The columns look ok when I put them in but them get all jumbly. I was going to get your opinion on a suggested line-up as I am going to be granted some freedom to move some kids around.

[scorekeeper]

Very nice. Thank you for the advice. I do keep track of errors and put outs on my own, but I cant post them. I do want to get some new software, and I will be tracking WHIP. My kid is the .381 avg. and the 4.50 era. The reason for not posting errors etc. Is that the coach's claim it can upset, and demoralize the kids. I think it is so the parents dont complain. I do score the other team pretty close to ours, and we have more bb in all games but 1. we have talked and now he is only going to call the pitch and the kid gets to pick location. so we will see. The columns look ok when I put them in but them get all jumbly. I was going to get your opinion on a suggested line-up as I am going to be granted some freedom to move some kids around.

I offer this as a suggestion. I’m sure there’s team meetings where the coach and the parents get together. Sound out the other parents to get their feelings about whether or not they’re little babies are gonna be irreparably injured mentally if errors are posted. If your sense is that they feel much as you do, talk about it at the team meeting. Chances are, you can get him to change his policy.

Well, it sounds like your coach is willing to try new things if they’re based on common sense. That’s a very good thing! Many would tell you that if you didn’t like, you should take your kid and leave.

Lineups are funny things to me. I’ve had the computer figure out lineups based on various things, and it is possible to come up with something worth considering.

Although its possible to set lineups by a million different things, but if you look at the attachment, you’ll see 4 different ways. To tell the truth, I find Base per Out is as accurate as any other way, and more accurate than most.

BPO is pretty simple to compute, and the neat thing is, it works for pitchers and hitters! (walks+HBP+(doubles)*2)+(triples)*3)+(hrs)*4)+sing les)/(abs+sacbunts+sacflys-hits)

Just remember, before you go monkeying around with lineups, make absolutely positive your philosophy is set.

Personally, I feel that the best hitter on a team should bat 3rd. I also feel the 1st hitter in a lineup should have some speed. Maybe you feel the best run producer should be 4th. And on and on. But until you do that, you won’t be able to set a lineup using the numbers.

[bbb3601]

I offer this as a suggestion. I’m sure there’s team meetings where the coach and the parents get together. Sound out the other parents to get their feelings about whether or not they’re little babies are gonna be irreparably injured mentally if errors are posted. If your sense is that they feel much as you do, talk about it at the team meeting. Chances are, you can get him to change his policy.

Well, it sounds like your coach is willing to try new things if they’re based on common sense. That’s a very good thing! Many would tell you that if you didn’t like, you should take your kid and leave.

Lineups are funny things to me. I’ve had the computer figure out lineups based on various things, and it is possible to come up with something worth considering.

Although its possible to set lineups by a million different things, but if you look at the attachment, you’ll see 4 different ways. To tell the truth, I find Base per Out is as accurate as any other way, and more accurate than most.

BPO is pretty simple to compute, and the neat thing is, it works for pitchers and hitters! (walks+HBP+(doubles)*2)+(triples)*3)+(hrs)*4)+sing les)/(abs+sacbunts+sacflys-hits)

Just remember, before you go monkeying around with lineups, make absolutely positive your philosophy is set.

Personally, I feel that the best hitter on a team should bat 3rd. I also feel the 1st hitter in a lineup should have some speed. Maybe you feel the best run producer should be 4th. And on and on. But until you do that, you won’t be able to set a lineup using the numbers.

Wow. I will be up half the night playing around. This sounds like fun. Our head coach is a good guy. I helped him put the team together, and I do have a voice. I elected not to be called a "coach" so to speak because I want to start stepping away, and let my childs play speak for itself. We seem to have the same feelings on most. I talked to him tonight at practice about all of this, plus the fact that I feel we are leaving some runs out there and with a few changes we could average some more runs. He said do what you want. So I am going to do what I want. He said I have three games to average more runs than we have in the past, and he will never question what I say. I am going pm you our numbers (hopefully in a nice column) our current lineup, and my new one. I was going to wing it on gut ( I have known all of the kids for years) but I may try your math if I can find my scientific calculator :-)

[mudvnine]

Wow!! I wished you lived in Ohio so I could be your understudy. The coaching staff must love you.

HEY!!! When SK gets tired of scoring for his current team, or wants a change of scenery, I've already called "First Dibs!!" on adopting him!! :D :D :D :D

[mudvnine]

Anytime you’d like, you’re welcome to PM me and ask any questions you’d like. I may not be the quickest answer in the world, but I assure you I’m one of the most thorough. Ask Mudvine. ;)

SK, has changed the way Mudvnine looks at stats, their importance, and has even changed the way he is coaching, by giving him a better format for what stats should really be taken, organized, and how to apply them properly. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

But I caution you, if you do ask, have plenty of time to go go through the voluminous amounts of material you will have to get through.

SK, now that our season has concluded, I will have more time to refocus on the last stuff you sent. Thank you . . . will be writing you very soon. :waving: :waving

[scorekeeper]

Well bbb,

The attached was done in a hurry, but you might find it helpful. How did you compute OBP?

[bbb3601]

well I must confess..software on our site. I have spent the day going back through things and I have made mistakes. I am doing it all by hand..or calculator. I can't thank you enough for your help.

[scorekeeper]

well I must confess..software on our site. I have spent the day going back through things and I have made mistakes. I am doing it all by hand..or calculator. I can't thank you enough for your help.

Send me an e-mail and I’ll send you the SS I set up. I won’t use a SS, but for what you want to do, it should be fine, and if you want, I can show you how to make it do a few other calculations for you.

[bbb3601]

Send me an e-mail and I’ll send you the SS I set up. I won’t use a SS, but for what you want to do, it should be fine, and if you want, I can show you how to make it do a few other calculations for you.

E-mail sent. My wife says thank you. She claims I am borderline OCD, and I have found a new love. ..nuMbEr$

[TonyK]

Also explain to me why a bunt foul on 2 strikes is an out? that one confuses me...why would it not just be a foul ball and get another pitch?

Back in the 19th Century bats had one side that was flat. That made it easier to bunt the ball or to slap the ball on the ground in front of home plate. A good batter could stand there for a long time fouling off bunts while trying to get one to land in fair territory.

A rule forbid using flat sided bats and another rule made bunting foul with two strikes an out. Afternoon games began at 3:30 PM and fans liked to get home at supper time. The rule change helped them get home on time.

[scorekeeper]

For more info on the subject, see Baltimore Chop.

http://baseball-lingo.blogspot.com/2008/06/baltimore-chop.html