Help me understand the "levels" of youth baseball

[R00STER]

Hey guys, I always preface my posts by pointing out that I don't know much about baseball so this is my disclaimer. :blush: I have a 12 year old son who plays baseball. He has always just played for our Church in what is a relatively uncompetetive league. Practices are pretty uninformative and once the games started, we've stopped practicing altogether as a team. My son, despite us neglecting his talent thru the years, seems to be a natural at baseball and we're thinking we want more for him than just being the best player on a Bad News Bears type team. Where do I go from here? I hear all the terms like travel ball, etc. but I don't really know what it all means or how to find such a team or league. His season is almost over and I want him to continue playing somewhere else either over the summer or definitely in the fall. So what is the next step up for him after "Church league" and how do I find him a home?

On a somewhat related note, where does middle school baseball fall into the hierarchy? Is it prestigious or is travel ball and other avenues more coveted than playing for your school?

[Jake Patterson]

On a somewhat related note, where does middle school baseball fall into the hierarchy? Is it prestigious or is travel ball and other avenues more coveted than playing for your school? MS here is pretty big and those expecting to play HS should be playing MS. I feel both have their places. I am not an advocate of 12U travel ball and feel much of it is more for parents than they are players. Up to this age the players s/b playing to primarlily have fun.

[songtitle]

MS here is pretty big and those expecting to play HS should be playing MS. I feel both have their places. I am not an advocate of 12U travel ball and feel much of it is more for parents than they are players. Up to this age the players s/b playing to primarlily have fun.

Good lord.

[ctandc]

First step.

Where are you located?

Depending on your location there are several leagues.

Little League, Cal Ripken, Dixie Youth, Pony League etc etc.

Then there is "travel" or "select" ball which can be governed by USSSA, AAU, Nations Baseball etc etc.

Again, alot depends on where you live.

[R00STER]

I live in Gastonia, NC....a small town outside Charlotte.

[ctandc]

MS here is pretty big and those expecting to play HS should be playing MS. I feel both have their places. I am not an advocate of 12U travel ball and feel much of it is more for parents than they are players. Up to this age the players s/b playing to primarlily have fun.

Depends AGAIN, on where you are located. Here we don't have MS Ball. At all. Doesn't exist. And "travel" ball doesn't mean that you are actually traveling anywhere.

And kids here can go out for JV in 8th grade. At the two local high schools, guess how many of the 8th graders who made JV played "travel" ball? Yes that would be all of them.

In fact every kid on the JV team of both High Schools plays or played travel ball.

Again, each location is different. Here in VA, it's getting to the point that Legion is totally watered down, as more and more Showcase teams from 15U and up and gaining strength.

And just because it's "travel" why can't the primary reason to play, still be because the kids want to play and have fun?

[songtitle]

Your next step is probably the county or city rec baseball program.

[ctandc]

I live in Gastonia, NC....a small town outside Charlotte.

I know exactly where Gastonia is.

Here ya go

http://www.ncusssabaseball.net/TTIntro2.aspx?tid=USSSANC

and here

http://carolinasports.websitetoolbox.com/?forum=131657

[songtitle]

City Parks and Rec Baseball (http://www.cityofgastonia.com/city_serv/parks/athletics/athletics.cfm)

[Bolts-Baseball]

I am not an advocate of 12U travel ball and feel much of it is more for parents than they are players. Up to this age the players s/b playing to primarlily have fun.What about this?

http://www.littleleague.org/worldseries/index.html

Would this not be considered "travel ball"...?

I know when a friend coached in the 2005 version, that they "traveled" their butts off...

I think all the kids involved had "fun" as well...

:twocents:

[ctandc]

What about this?

http://www.littleleague.org/worldseries/index.html

Would this not be considered "travel ball"...?

I know when a friend coached in the 2005 version, that they "traveled" their butts off...

I think all the kids involved had "fun" as well...

:twocents:

LOL

Our goal is to make regionals this year with my 12's...

[Jake Patterson]

What about this?
http://www.littleleague.org/worldseries/index.html
Would this not be considered "travel ball"...?
I know when a friend coached in the 2005 version, that they "traveled" their butts off...
I think all the kids involved had "fun" as well...
:twocents:
We can re-open this topic if you want, but there has been a great deal of discussion on this topic that you can search.

Bottom line for me (roughly speaking)...
11U have fun! LL, ML, that's it... 4 months of ball
12-14 MS (where available), Little League, playoffs then go swimming for the summer -5 months of ball
14+ HS, Legion (or comparable travel ball) - 7-8 months of ball.

[bbb3601]

We can re-open this topic if you want, but there has been a great deal of discussion on this topic that you can search.

Bottom line for me (roughly speaking)...
11U have fun! LL, ML, that's it... 4 months of ball
12-14 MS (where available), Little League, playoffs then go swimming for the summer -5 months of ball
14+ HS, Legion (or comparable travel ball) - 7-8 months of ball.

Let's not and say we did.:ughh

[AgentX]

On a somewhat related note, where does middle school baseball fall into the hierarchy? Is it prestigious or is travel ball and other avenues more coveted than playing for your school?

MS ball can be fairly competitive. But there wasn't a single kid on my son's MS team that didn't also play travel.

The MS season is insanely short for us, so it's more of an "in addition to" kind of option. I think it's important to play MS ball if you want to play in HS.

[3and0]

Wow. It's crazy to hear about how long most ball seasons are in the states and its like 3/4 months MAX here in Canada unless you live in city or close enough to one that you get access to the baseball academies or programs like that. Kinda depressing

[AgentX]

You can play year round in Florida.

That's not necessarily a good thing for growing kids though.

[3and0]

You can play year round in Florida.

That's not necessarily a good thing for growing kids though.

Yeah my older brother lives in Florida. I wouldn't play year round anyways because of hockey/volleyball/badminton anyways. I imagine ball like that is like hockey here, lots of kids play it year round then get tired of it at 15/16 like I did and I am now regretting not playing any ball from 9-14. And all that time on hockey seems kind of a waste since I'm probably not playing it next winter due to playing on one of the best volleyball teams in the province and working out for ball.

[shake-n-bake]

We can re-open this topic if you want, but there has been a great deal of discussion on this topic that you can search.

Bottom line for me (roughly speaking)...
11U have fun! LL, ML, that's it... 4 months of ball
12-14 MS (where available), Little League, playoffs then go swimming for the summer -5 months of ball
14+ HS, Legion (or comparable travel ball) - 7-8 months of ball.

Way, way wrong! 8 y/o+

1. Unofficial start is MLB Hot Stove / Winter Meetings. It is the kid's duty to monitor several online sites and keep dad informed of all rumors and transactions.

2. While surfing, watch/study video.

3. Attend a minimum of 1 hitting and 1 pitching camp in Dec. and Jan.

4. Begin outdoor workouts in Feb. (every day weather permitting - 2 a days on dad's days off)

5. Tryout in Feb. or March - Go to any lengths possible to play up in age.

6. Regular season + Spring Break and Memorial Day Tournaments

7. Start AS season practice

8. AS Season

9. Go Fishing / Camping for a few weeks, BUT Always bring baseball gear with you!

10. Go to football camp - talk baseball with your buddies there.

11. Start football season - practice baseball on football practice off days.

12. Start fall baseball - practice on Tues./Thurs. - practice football Mon./Wed./Fri. - play football game on Sat. - play baseball doubleheader on Sunday.

13. Fall baseball tournaments to close season - then it's a min. 2 games on Sat. and Sun. (with as much football as is possible in between on Sat. - change into uniform while driving across town - change back into baseball uniform driving back) Get some homework in, or have mom and dad do it for you.

14. Nov. = time off for hunting and fishing - listen to college football and / or World Series in camp on radio. School no longer considers elk hunting season as excused absences so we have to have the talk about this is one time it is ok to lie - find a new obscure ailment to come down with - no brainer this year - Possible Swine Flu!

Play basketball / Repeat.

[dolphindan1]

I live in Gastonia, NC....a small town outside Charlotte.

We play alot of travel ball tourneys in Charlotte and Rock Hill...I think if he is considering School ball...He should look into Travel ball and at the very least Cal Ripken if its offered in your area in the fall...but travel baseball, if on a decent team, will get him ready for the next level...keep in mind in travel, USSSA, there are 3 levels at each age...AA, AAA, Majors....the better teams play in the higher level and is a point based system...Majors is the best of the best and usually your better players on the best teams...thats why there are so few in SC...about 10 majors, about 20-30 AAA, and almost 80 AA teams...My son plays Majors in the fall and AA in spring for the same organization and has learned so much getting away from DY rec baseball...

[dolphindan1]

You can play year round in Florida.

That's not necessarily a good thing for growing kids though.

My 12 year old plays year round....with maybe Jan being his only month off...right now he is playing rec and travel...I hate he is playing rec but he wants to play...I tried hard to talk him out of rec...he loves and shows no sign of burn out...YET

[3and0]

Way, way wrong! 8 y/o+





hahaha sounds like not too bad of a life to me.

[coach scotty]

And it kills me how many dads are truly shocked when their 16 year old doesn't play sports any more. You think they would have seen it coming.

[dolphindan1]

And it kills me how many dads are truly shocked when their 16 year old doesn't play sports any more. You think they would have seen it coming.

I am worried about that with my son...but he makes me sign him up...I do not force the issue or really encourage him to play so much...I played...Football, basketball and a little baseball but Basketball was a year round thing for me....HS and AAU....So I understand his passion....

Yeah I have seen it 1st hand...a very good player in our area...a year older than our son...was playing JV, then travel and Rec...His dad told me they were on the way to a scrimmage and the boy looked at him and said dad I dont wanna play anymore till next spring...So they dad pulled him...I am not sure I would have pulled him...I think I would have made him finish but I felt for the kid...7th grade playing JV...starting 1st baseman, #5 batter, and pitched...hope his carear is not over

[Baseball gLove]

We can re-open this topic if you want, but there has been a great deal of discussion on this topic that you can search.

Bottom line for me (roughly speaking)...
11U have fun! LL, ML, that's it... 4 months of ball
12-14 MS (where available), Little League, playoffs then go swimming for the summer -5 months of ball
14+ HS, Legion (or comparable travel ball) - 7-8 months of ball.

99% chance this example does not make the high school team at most of the decent sized high schools in So Cal. There are a lot of kids that are actually pretty decent, but don't make even the freshman team or don't get playing time.

[AgentX]

My 12 year old plays year round....with maybe Jan being his only month off...right now he is playing rec and travel...I hate he is playing rec but he wants to play...I tried hard to talk him out of rec...he loves and shows no sign of burn out...YET
There's a lot of value in doing both rec and travel, but I wouldn't do it for any other season but the 12yo Majors. It's just too big an impact on the family schedule.

As for burn out, I think it's a fine line. When that teenage attitude sets in, kids who never played enough sports don't see it as worthwhile, and the kids who played too much rebel against it.

It's easy for young kids to be into baseball, because at the young levels, it's just a lot of fun. But the game slows down and becomes more challenging and frustrating as they mature. They'll eventually have to reckon their level of commitment and desire to keep playing. When they start facing more and more peers with greater ability, it becomes easier and easier for them to give up on their youthful ambitions.

The challenge is in keeping them motivated and keeping it fun.

I also think there needs to be downtime. Not only is it essential for proper physical development in adolescence, but it is also true that "absence makes the heart grow fonder." Giving your kid some time away from the game is the only way to get him to miss it. It may also be the only way to see that he doesn't miss it at all.

[Jake Patterson]

Way, way wrong! 8 y/o+

1. Unofficial start is MLB Hot Stove / Winter Meetings. It is the kid's duty to monitor several online sites and keep dad informed of all rumors and transactions.

2. While surfing, watch/study video.

3. Attend a minimum of 1 hitting and 1 pitching camp in Dec. and Jan.

4. Begin outdoor workouts in Feb. (every day weather permitting - 2 a days on dad's days off)

5. Tryout in Feb. or March - Go to any lengths possible to play up in age.

6. Regular season + Spring Break and Memorial Day Tournaments

7. Start AS season practice

8. AS Season

9. Go Fishing / Camping for a few weeks, BUT Always bring baseball gear with you!

10. Go to football camp - talk baseball with your buddies there.

11. Start football season - practice baseball on football practice off days.

12. Start fall baseball - practice on Tues./Thurs. - practice football Mon./Wed./Fri. - play football game on Sat. - play baseball doubleheader on Sunday.

13. Fall baseball tournaments to close season - then it's a min. 2 games on Sat. and Sun. (with as much football as is possible in between on Sat. - change into uniform while driving across town - change back into baseball uniform driving back) Get some homework in, or have mom and dad do it for you.

14. Nov. = time off for hunting and fishing - listen to college football and / or World Series in camp on radio. School no longer considers elk hunting season as excused absences so we have to have the talk about this is one time it is ok to lie - find a new obscure ailment to come down with - no brainer this year - Possible Swine Flu!

Play basketball / Repeat.
LOL Thanks Shake - I stand corrected

[bbb3601]

[QUOTE=shake-n-bake;1529424]Way, way wrong! 8 y/o+

1. Unofficial start is MLB Hot Stove / Winter Meetings. It is the kid's duty to monitor several online sites and keep dad informed of all rumors and transactions.

2. While surfing, watch/study video.

3. Attend a minimum of 1 hitting and 1 pitching camp in Dec. and Jan.

4. Begin outdoor workouts in Feb. (every day weather permitting - 2 a days on dad's days off)

5. Tryout in Feb. or March - Go to any lengths possible to play up in age.

6. Regular season + Spring Break and Memorial Day Tournaments

7. Start AS season practice

8. AS Season

9. Go Fishing / Camping for a few weeks, BUT Always bring baseball gear with you!

10. Go to football camp - talk baseball with your buddies there.

11. Start football season - practice baseball on football practice off days.

12. Start fall baseball - practice on Tues./Thurs. - practice football Mon./Wed./Fri. - play football game on Sat. - play baseball doubleheader on Sunday.

13. Fall baseball tournaments to close season - then it's a min. 2 games on Sat. and Sun. (with as much football as is possible in between on Sat. - change into uniform while driving across town - change back into baseball uniform driving back) Get some homework in, or have mom and dad do it for you.

14. Nov. = time off for hunting and fishing - listen to college football and / or World Series in camp on radio. School no longer considers elk hunting season as excused absences so we have to have the talk about this is one time it is ok to lie - find a new obscure ailment to come down with - no brainer this year - Possible Swine Flu!

LOL # 14 is the best. My son hunt's and last year he had a new teacher just out of college from a big city. When deer season rolled around we sent in a letter stating he needs his work in advance for this week etc etc. She replied to him what was wrong are you sick, and he said he had buckitis....she was perplexed. When he returned to school the following week she asked him if he was feeling better, and he said ,I got a 10 pointer.....she thought it was a real condition, but to some it is!!!!

[Jake Patterson]

99% chance this example does not make the high school team at most of the decent sized high schools in So Cal. There are a lot of kids that are actually pretty decent, but don't make even the freshman team or don't get playing time.

Many confuse making a HS team, anywhere in the country, with the amount of baseball their child played as a youngster with the quality of the game they need to bring to the table. As a HS coach (and dad of two boys) I've experienced the TB players with mom and dad in tow during tryouts. Some where just burnt before their time. Those of equal skills and talent are not exponentially better because they played more games as an 8 y/o (Unless of course you are on Shake's regimen). Kids pick up stuff quickly. There is more downside to "parent encouraged" baseball than there is upside.
Make sense?

[Baseball gLove]

Many confuse making a HS team, anywhere in the country, with the amount of baseball their child played as a youngster with the quality of the game they need to bring to the table. As a HS coach (and dad of two boys) I've experienced the TB players with mom and dad in tow during tryouts. Some where just burnt before their time. Those of equal skills and talent are not exponentially better because they played more games as an 8 y/o (Unless of course you are on Shake's regimen). Kids pick up stuff quickly. There is more downside to "parent encouraged" baseball than there is upside.
Make sense?


It is a fact that kids here in So Cal play far more baseball than the kids in your area. So how is it the kids in your area get burned out? Why is it that my son's former 8U teammates, my son included, are now varsity starters at far more than a handful of high schools in the area? I'm the one that tried to push my son to play another sport so he wouldn't burn out, it was he that passed despite being offered a varsity spot on the high school soccer team. When the h.s. soccer coach approached me, I replied that I can't make my son play if he doesn't want to.

I watch the baseball tryouts. Evey kid that made the freshman, jv and varsity team played travel/club ball with or against my son. There were a few kids that only played LL/senior league; those now play lacrosse, soccer or golf.

[Drill]

Have your son get as much playing time as he can get.


Wait for puberty to hit and if he wants to practice it is up to him to lift, practice and play a lot of baseball if he wants to improve.


Puberty seems to level the playing field out.



IMHO,

drill

[songtitle]

Puberty seems to level the playing field out.


Amen, brother. Kids come out of nowhere. Big kids at 10 are no longer so big, and vice versa.

[Baseball gLove]

Amen, brother. Kids come out of nowhere. Big kids at 10 are no longer so big, and vice versa.

Thank God. My 16 year old used to always be the small youngest kid on his teams. Now he's 6' 150". Although at a recent scout team tryout he felt like a small kid again. Fortunately his arm and his hitting were bigger than most there. There were a couple guys that were 6'6" or taller, both look very coordinated for their size and could hit.

[ctandc]

It's all about where you are, and what baseball is like in your area.

In many places it's simply a numbers games. Only so many roster spots on HS teams and ALOT more kids that want to play.

[songtitle]

It's all about where you are, and what baseball is like in your area.

In many places it's simply a numbers games. Only so many roster spots on HS teams and ALOT more kids that want to play.

4000+ students at our local HS.

[AgentX]

The better HS programs down here actually recruit.

[3and0]

It is a fact that kids here in So Cal play far more baseball than the kids in your area. So how is it the kids in your area get burned out? Why is it that my son's former 8U teammates, my son included, are now varsity starters at far more than a handful of high schools in the area? I'm the one that tried to push my son to play another sport so he wouldn't burn out, it was he that passed despite being offered a varsity spot on the high school soccer team. When the h.s. soccer coach approached me, I replied that I can't make my son play if he doesn't want to.

I watch the baseball tryouts. Evey kid that made the freshman, jv and varsity team played travel/club ball with or against my son. There were a few kids that only played LL/senior league; those now play lacrosse, soccer or golf.
I would say someones athletic ability will better determine how far they go in baseball. Not how much baseball they played as a young kid. I know kids who played baseball their entire life and get surpassed by player who have played it for a few years but possess natural athletic ability.

[Baseball gLove]

I would say someones athletic ability will better determine how far they go in baseball. Not how much baseball they played as a young kid. I know kids who played baseball their entire life and get surpassed by player who have played it for a few years but possess natural athletic ability.

They better show some polish at the tryouts, because there are a lot of athletes that didn't make the baseball team and instead play lacrosse, volleyball, golf or run track. I was at a showcase tryout watching a 6'5" natural inner city athlete trying to hit the ball. He didn't make the team.

[Jake Patterson]

The better HS programs down here actually recruit.
In most IAC's this is illegal.

[Jake Patterson]

It is a fact that kids here in So Cal play far more baseball than the kids in your area.Unless you know how many games a player can play here in New England, I am uncertain how you can state anything as a fact. The last time I looked the Red Sox play the same amount of games as the Padres.

Here's the long and short of it:
1. There is a plethora of information available from all kinds of experts that suggest too much baseball is detrimental to development, especially prepubescent.
2. Too many games is TOO many games regardless of where you live. Unless of course you are developing a genetically enhanced form of child in So. Cal.
3. Performance at the youth level is no guarantee of future performance or skill development.
4. I would offer that excessive snow belt ball is worse than excessive sun belt ball as many parents try to cram more into less.... BUT again, see #2.

So how is it the kids in your area get burned out? 100 games is 100 games
Why is it that my son's former 8U teammates, my son included, are now varsity starters at far more than a handful of high schools in the area? I don't know - I would suggest talent?

I'm the one that tried to push my son to play another sport so he wouldn't burn out, it was he that passed despite being offered a varsity spot on the high school soccer team. When the h.s. soccer coach approached me, I replied that I can't make my son play if he doesn't want to.I am uncertain why the personal twist here. Encouraging your son to play more than one sport is a good thing!
I watch the baseball tryouts. Evey kid that made the freshman, jv and varsity team played travel/club ball with or against my son. There were a few kids that only played LL/senior league; those now play lacrosse, soccer or golf.I felt the same way until I coached HS ball.

[shake-n-bake]

[QUOTE=shake-n-bake;1529424]
LOL # 14 is the best. My son hunt's and last year he had a new teacher just out of college from a big city. When deer season rolled around we sent in a letter stating he needs his work in advance for this week etc etc. She replied to him what was wrong are you sick, and he said he had buckitis....she was perplexed. When he returned to school the following week she asked him if he was feeling better, and he said ,I got a 10 pointer.....she thought it was a real condition, but to some it is!!!!

My son has had his tonsils out twice:happy: Well, counting actually having them out - three times. When I was in school, teachers would work with you.

10 pointer is a nice buck. Sort of like homering in your first MLB AB. You guys count both sides I'm assuming? Out here a 10 point buck would probably be a B&C non-typical record. We just count one side.

Going to be first year carrying his own rifle. Should be fun.

[Baseball gLove]

In most IAC's this is illegal.

Recruiting is very much against the rules in CIF. Unfortunately, it happens a lot. Some of it is indirect, a bunch of kids that have played club together for many year will often gravitate to a particular school even though it's not their home school. Sometimes a parent has direct involvement, perhaps paying the tuition for the other kids or having a field built for the school. In other cases, coaches are know to actively recruit.

[AgentX]

It's the kind of thing that's kind of hard to prove, especially when your program earns a national ranking.

But you'll find kids on SoFla HS teams that have just moved here from the DR or Puerto Rico. Somehow, they seem to find schools with strong programs.

[jmart2663]

I have mentioned this before in another thread about a similar topic and I'll mention it again, not to argue, just to point out a difference as compared to what some assert. I live just north of Dallas/Ft.Worth. In our school district we have 3, 5A high schools. Right now 2 of them are in the regional semi-final round of the state playoffs, they are cross town rivals and should they both win this round they will meet in the regional final round which would make them 2 of the top 8 teams in the state. NO ONE ON EITHER TEAM FROM FRESHMAN TO VARSITY PLAYED REC LEAGUE BASEBALL PAST THE AGE OF 9 OR 10. Every player on both varsity squads played on USSSA Majors level select ball clubs as 11, 12, 13 and 14 year olds. THERE ARE NO REC LEAGUE KIDS THAT HAVE A CHANCE AT MAKING THE HS TEAM IN THIS AREA PERIOD, END OF STORY. By the age of 12 rec league ball is so awful it usally take 90 minutes to play 2 or 3 innings.

[dolphindan1]

I have mentioned this before in another thread about a similar topic and I'll mention it again, not to argue, just to point out a difference as compared to what some assert. I live just north of Dallas/Ft.Worth. In our school district we have 3, 5A high schools. Right now 2 of them are in the regional semi-final round of the state playoffs, they are cross town rivals and should they both win this round they will meet in the regional final round which would make them 2 of the top 8 teams in the state. NO ONE ON EITHER TEAM FROM FRESHMAN TO VARSITY PLAYED REC LEAGUE BASEBALL PAST THE AGE OF 9 OR 10. Every player on both varsity squads played on USSSA Majors level select ball clubs as 11, 12, 13 and 14 year olds. THERE ARE NO REC LEAGUE KIDS THAT HAVE A CHANCE AT MAKING THE HS TEAM IN THIS AREA PERIOD, END OF STORY. By the age of 12 rec league ball is so awful it usally take 90 minutes to play 2 or 3 innings.

Rec ball loses its luster at age 11-12 in our area...we usually only have 1 or 2 teams at that age and play other towns for extra games so those 2 dont play each other 15 times a season...that would suck...however its small town america...the biggest names from our area are football....Pierson Prioleau, Courtney Brown, Joe Hamilton....So alot of rec ball players make JV as there is no B team at our school....However we are pushing to get a MS team as baseball has really caught on and alot of kids in our area play travel...including my son who played Majors in the fall...I as baseball director for our rec league even encourage parents to get there kids in travel ball...so I think AA travel will be nothing but glorified rec ball in a couple years...we played a team in Charlotte that had a girl pitcher and played SS...she was the best player on a 12 man roster...in 12 year old baseball...see where its headed...Nothing against girls playing but you get my point

[coach scotty]

You know it totally shocks the crap out of me every time I look at a college teams roster and see a player not from Texas or California. One would think with all of that awesome High School Talent they have that they would take up all the college roster spots. Go get a couple of your stud freshman wide receivers that have never played a lick of baseball, teach them to hit, catch and throw and watch how easily they make the baseball team their Junior year. THE REASON ALL THE BEST PLAYERS ON THE HIGH SCHOOL TEAM PLAYED TRAVEL BALL IS BECAUSE THE BEST PLAYERS CHOOSE TO PLAY TRAVEL BALL IF THEY HAD PLAYED REC THEY WOULD STILL BE THE BEST PLAYERS.

Look I understand that every one that spends all of these ridiculous amount of time and money on their kids game doesn't want to hear it because it doesn't justify what they did to an 8 year old child but god given talent trumps 100 games a year every time.

[jmart2663]

Scotty you seem to have almost zero understanding as to what I am trying to say. Obviously things are done differently in your neck of the woods than they are in my neck of the woods. A typical season for an 11-13 year old select team around here is between 45 and 70 games over the course of the spring/summer and fall seasons. Typically the bulk of the games are played in the spring and summer where a team might play 40 games or so at the high end followed by a few months off and maybe 15 -20 games in the fall followed by a few months off. It has NOTHING to do with the money being spent it has to do with the quality and level of ball that is played. A typical 14 year old AA team, if they were to play a typical 14 year old rec team, would win 100 games out of 100 with an average run difference of 30 runs by the 3rd inning.

I completely agree, if all the kids stayed in rec league the better players would still be the better players. Bottom line is, kids who have a desire to play and compete want to play more than 20 games a YEAR, they want to practice more than 20-30 times a YEAR and they want to experience more challenging levels of competition and develop higher levels of skill. They CAN'T do that in rec league baseball in THIS area. They will NOT have ANY chance of playing HS baseball in THIS area if all they ever play is rec league baseball.

A lot of you guys make a big deal out of spending money to play baseball and that confuses the heck out of me. It costs money to play rec league baseball. Rec league kids go out and buy all the same expensive equipmet everyone else buys. 12 games for the 5 week spring season costs a 12 year old $125.00 to sign up. That same 12 year old can tryout for a select team and if he makes it he can play somewhere around 40 games for $3- 400. It is less money per game to play select ball not to mention the boon to the local economies the tournaments generate, the jobs created and the GREAT time it is for the kids!

There are TONS of Texas kids playing on college and pro rosters all over the country so I'm not quite sure what you are talking about with that comment. The University of Texas who has won several College World Series has a ton of Texas kids on the roster as do many colleges all over the country. Where are you from? Is there an inordinate amount of kids from your state on college rosters? That's really a ridiculous statement in my opinion. Look I am sure travel ball, as many of you call it, may be the bain of baseball where some of you live BUT HERE it is the norm, it is a MAJOR factor in developing good baseball players at all levels and it is a good, fun thing. Hell Chris Davis, 1st baseman for the Texas Rangers played for the Dallas Tigers select baseball organization from age 16 - 18 if I rememebr correctly, before that he played on several select ball clubs out of the Longview area. The D-Bat select baseball organization has many kids who sign with major college programs every year and they have teams from 8U - 18U there is the McKinney Marshalls, the Dallas Patriots, the Flower Mound Warriors, and many, many others that routinely produce very high quality baseball players who all go their seperate ways and play on their HS teams during the HS baseball season.

I don't know, as I have read some of the arguments and comments made about select youth baseball I have always been left with the impression that those who dislike it have experienced a VERY different type of thing than we have here in the DFW area, the Houston area and all over Texas really.

[AgentX]

I agree with Jmart. Travel is a very important part of the baseball fabric here in FL as well.

It's true that athleticism goes a long way, but an edge is an edge. Someone who is naturally athletic has an obvious edge, whereas someone of lesser build may have to build up their edge by honing skills and attitude over the years.

Playing travel may not be necessary, but it may also be the only way a player can compete for a spot on a team.

[Bolts-Baseball]

Totally agree with Jmart as well...

I'd also go further in predicting that within the next 5 or so years, the linear shift to travel/select/club Baseball will eclipse High School Baseball here in the state of Florida in importance to an aspiring player... The FHSAA's decision to cut 40 percent of junior varsity and 20 percent of varsity games (for economic reasons) will severely hamper Florida's High School Baseball prominence.

[bbb3601]

Totally agree with Jmart as well...

I'd also go further in predicting that within the next 5 or so years, the linear shift to travel/select/club Baseball will eclipse High School Baseball here in the state of Florida in importance to an aspiring player... The FHSAA's decision to cut 40 percent of junior varsity and 20 percent of varsity games (for economic reasons) will severely hamper Florida's High School Baseball prominence.

You know I find some of this very interesting. Our school District has 4 High Schools and is in the midst of a severe budjet crunch. Our levy failed twice and they have canceled all sports. A large number of kids have transfered to other districts during open enrollment, but those spots filled quickly. Now there is rumor that they are starting some super powerhouse Travel Teams to keep all the kids together. The booster clubs have monsy and instead of giving to the school they are going to fund these various teams.

[Jake Patterson]

I don't know, as I have read some of the arguments and comments made about select youth baseball I have always been left with the impression that those who dislike it have experienced a VERY different type of thing than we have here in the DFW area, the Houston area and all over Texas really.My experience as a dad and as a HS coach is what it is.... I agree there comes a time when a player needs to be playing TB in order to help set himself up for a shot at HS and beyond.

The TB I am against is the diaper ball series where parents feel 8 y/o junior needs to be playing in the national T-Ball Series in order to have a shot at HS. As a HS coach I would offer these players, nor their parents, never faired very well. The ones who seem to do well are those players who picked up reasonable TB at age 13-14 after having a good time playing rec ball. By reasonable I mean MS-Jr. League/Jr.Legion (AAU) - Playoffs - That's it!

[mudvnine]

I tend to agree with Jmart on most of thoughts regarding the importance of TB with only a couple of exceptions and one may really be the result of the first.

For the following statement, I have to disagree (at least with the TB level choice):
A typical 14 year old AA team, if they were to play a typical 14 year old rec team, would win 100 games out of 100 with an average run difference of 30 runs by the 3rd inning.
Over the years in SoCal, I have seen the quality of TB decrease due to all of the daddies who go out and start a TB team because little Billy couldn't make one of the quality teams already out there.

In years past, TB or "select" ball used to be just that; teams that selected the best talent from area leagues and competed at a higher level then was being played at your local rec field and the players on these teams developed accordingly.

Now, because of the exact same feelings Jmart has, daddies fear little Billy won't make his HS team unless he plays TB. Little Billy doesn't have the ability to actually play on an established TB team, so daddy gets together with other daddies whose little Jimmies don't match up and they form a new TB team.

They promptly go out and get slaughtered by real TB teams, not making the game beneficial for anyone. Since more and more crappy "Daddy TB" teams enter the mix and are sheeps for the slaughter, sanctioning bodies (USSSA, Triple Crown, Super Series . . .) went and developed various levels of TB, ultimately diluting the quality of play to that of good rec ball teams in the AA and now starting to get into the AAA levels of TB.

With all of the Little Billy's out there playing lower level TB (AA and now approaching AAA) we're seeing more and more "TB players" not making the HS teams, because they never had the talent in the first place. Oh sure, they look good in their TB team jersey at tryouts trying to give us a "hey I played TB" heads up; but they forget, some of us know the quality "Majors" teams in the area, so unless you're wearing one of those jerseys you ain't fooling anyone. Besides, if the kid actually plays on one of those few Majors teams, we don't need to see a jersey to figure it out . . . his play tells us all we need to know.

So even though I will agree that typically a AA TB team will beat a good/typical rec. ball team more times then not; I'd put the ratio at more like 60-40 . . . nowhere near the 100% mark. Now a Majors team . . .yes 100% of the time and most AAA teams, 90-95% of the time; but a AA team (at least in SoCal), not so much.

. . . they have teams from 8U - 18U . . .
TB teams below the age of 11/12 (maaaaybe 10), I feel are promoting little for the players, but rather to feed the egos or false beliefs of the dads at that level.

Below 11/12 I feel the vast majority of kids are still trying to figure out how their bodies move and how they integrate the many complexities of throwing a baseball and swinging a bat properly. Now I will agree that there are a few players that have advanced skill sets at this young age, but the majority of players 10 and under are still in the "walk and chew gum" phase of baseball.

Because of this the AA (even AAA for the most part) level of "TB" play at the 10U and below age group is terrible in my opinion and should be eliminated (See reasoning above). I'm fine with a 10U and below Majors division for the FEW better players, but watching 10U TB below that level is not that much different then what I see at our local rec ball park.


I really wish these TB would return to what it used to be (and I believe is supposed to be); baseball for the select group of (older) players capable of playing at an advanced level and not a moneymaker for a few or not as an ego boost for Lil' Billy's daddy, who can stand around the water cooler at work bragging how "my boy, plays on a travel ball team". :ughh :faint:

[AgentX]

My experience as a dad and as a HS coach is what it is.... I agree there comes a time when a player needs to be playing TB in order to help set himself up for a shot at HS and beyond.

The TB I am against is the diaper ball series where parents feel 8 y/o junior needs to be playing in the national T-Ball Series in order to have a shot at HS. As a HS coach I would offer these players, nor their parents, never faired very well. The ones who seem to do well are those players who picked up reasonable TB at age 13-14 after having a good time playing rec ball. By reasonable I mean MS-Jr. League/Jr.Legion (AAU) - Playoffs - That's it!
I'd tend to agree, but I also don't think it's that simple.

Yes, a lot of parents who encourage/push little Timmy to play at 8yo are the kind of overbearing jackholes that he will eventually rebel against and the rest of the world will ignore.

But it's not that easy for the 9yo who loves the game but has only progressed so far to have a great time of it in rec. If he can get a couple of seasons of travel in, he may develop the skills to compete with the better rec players for starting spots. From what I've seen, that may be the key to deciding whether or not he stays interested in the game or even believes he can play above LL.

Kids get discouraged when they think they suck. But the kid who learns to work hard and improve is the kind of kid you want to remain in the game.

[AgentX]

TB teams below the age of 11/12 (maaaaybe 10), I feel are promoting little for the players, but rather to feed the egos or false beliefs of the dads at that level.

That hasn't been my experience at all. Not only does travel offer kids a chance to play with real baseball rules (unlike LL), travel coaches are generally better and the teams practice more often and much more effectively.

In terms of simply developing players, travel offers younger players a lot that they will never get from rec ball.

[Baseball gLove]

Yep AA Travel Ball ball is pretty ugly. AAA can be sloppy at times. This year I rank our 10U all stars at AA level. It's definitely daddy ball.

[mudvnine]

Yep AA Travel Ball ball is pretty ugly. AAA can be sloppy at times. This year I rank our 10U all stars at AA level. It's definitely daddy ball.

Several years ago, I took a "B" Allstar team to the USSSA - 10U AA World Series as practice games to prepare for sanction play and took third place. Now we're from a PONY league, Mustang division, so the kids were already playing "real baseball rules" as AgentX refers to them, but the TB teams we played were from all over the Western United States and the quality of play was marginal at best.

One can only imagine what our "A" team might have done in that tournament . . . :eek:

[Bolts-Baseball]

One can only imagine what our "A" team might have done in that tournament . . . :eek:Last year, our "A" Majors All-Star team (Mostly 12's with two 11's and one 10-year-old) got to scrimmage the #1 ranked 11u USSSA/AAU Majors team in the state of Florida. They also got to scrimmage a top-ranked 12u USSSA/AAU Majors team as well... This All-Star team was as stacked as the league ever had - loaded with great arms, and 9-guys who could hit it out of any ballpark...

The 11u USSSA/AAU team beat the All-Star team pretty badly, and did it while not playing their best. The 12u USSSA/AAU team absolutely destroyed them 15-2...

I agree though, USSSA Baseball at the AA-level, is close, for the most part to a decent league-ball team.

[scorekeeper]

…I'd also go further in predicting that within the next 5 or so years, the linear shift to travel/select/club Baseball will eclipse High School Baseball here in the state of Florida in importance to an aspiring player... The FHSAA's decision to cut 40 percent of junior varsity and 20 percent of varsity games (for economic reasons) will severely hamper Florida's High School Baseball prominence.

Ever since travel/select/tournament ball got so popular, I’ve heard about the demise of HS baseball, but guess what? Its not only still here, its still a pretty big deal.

What folks with your mindset don’t seem to take into account, is ALL the reasons HS baseball is the weakest of the 3 major HS sports. The main reason is, the time of year its played. Heck, even here in the land of fruits and nuts, those late Feb and Mar games can be a torture! Yeah, its not Nd cold for that time of the year, but its sure often cold out here. So if the better players turn their backs on HS ball, will the weather suddenly improve so they could have a great experience playing travel/select/tournament? I don’t think so.

Then there’s the fact that the sun goes down a lot earlier in Feb thru Apr than it does in Jul thr Aug. IOW, there’s not nearly as many hours in the day to play. But even if there were a desire to play, kids still have to go to school! Its pretty normal to have a throw away class at the end of the school day that allows the players to get out to the field an hour or two early, but that’s a school function. How many schools will let a kid go early because mommy or daddy tells them Li’l Johnny has to go play for a travel/select/tournament team on the other side of town at 3:30PM? I can hear the belly laughs now!

That means that unlike HS games that can get going at 3:30, these after school games won’t be starting until 4:30 or so, and that brings in another problem. Since it gets too dark to play, roughly at 5-5:30, you have to have a field with lights. That’s ok, but even if you find one, in Mar, while the temperature at 5:30 when the games normal end might be a little uncomfortable, a couple hours later, its very often flat cold. Now you’re dealing with a higher probability of injury.

Another thing is parent attendance. There aren’t a lot of jobs that won’t bend a little for a parent to attend a HS function for a child, but tell the boss you’re gonna take off an hour or two early go watch a travel/select/tournament game 2-3 times a week, and you better hope either s/he isn’t taking a drink when you say it, or that you aren’t standing directly in front of him/her.

So, while the importance of going on to a higher level of baseball might shift from HS to some other venue, HS ball will always be there into the foreseeable future. Any other venue will be just like travel/select/tournament is to the lower levels too. At 1st only the very best will participate, but sooner or later, it’ll get watered down too.

[ctandc]

Again, this ALL depends on WHERE you live. Even in my state, the level of play / competition can vary greatly from city to city, county to county etc.

[Bolts-Baseball]

Ever since travel/select/tournament ball got so popular, I’ve heard about the demise of HS baseball, but guess what? Its not only still here, its still a pretty big deal.

What folks with your mindset don’t seem to take into account...Nice post...

I don't have a "mindset", just going off what I see as facts... I would LOVE to see HS Baseball flourish, unfortunately with the economics the way they are here in FLORIDA with all the government/educational cutbacks, I cannot foresee it...

FYI: A vast majority of HS games here, IN CENTRAL FLORIDA, start at 7pm, for the most part, are all played under the lights.

[AgentX]

Nice post...

I don't have a "mindset", just going off what I see as facts... I would LOVE to see HS Baseball flourish, unfortunately with the economics the way they are here in FLORIDA with all the government/educational cutbacks, I cannot foresee it...

FYI: A vast majority of HS games here, IN CENTRAL FLORIDA, start at 7pm, for the most part, are all played under the lights.
Yeah, that struck me as odd too. Finding lighted fields aren't much of a problem here.

I don't see HS baseball going away, though. Hard to turn your back on media coverage, regardless of how many games you get to play. Consider also that budget cuts won't make FL teams less competitive in the long run. Everyone is in the same economic boat. Programs will reinflate along with the economy.

[Bolts-Baseball]

Yeah, that struck me as odd too. Finding lighted fields aren't much of a problem here.

I don't see HS baseball going away, though. Hard to turn your back on media coverage, regardless of how many games you get to play. Consider also that budget cuts won't make FL teams less competitive in the long run. Everyone is in the same economic boat. Programs will reinflate along with the economy.That was very odd... LOL

I never did say that HS-Ball would go away though... I did say that it would be of lesser importance than Travel-Ball to the aspiring player in the future...

I hope I'm wrong, by the way...

[jmart2663]

See mudvnine and others I pretty much agree with just about all the points you guys made. The point I made about a rec team losing 100 times out of 100 holds true HERE, not necessarily SoCal or anywhere else but I guarantee you it absolutley holds true here. The local youth league in my town fields All-Star teams every summer. Many local organizations host All-Star only tournamnets and they are generally very competitive tournaments at all age groups from 8 -14. Once these All-Star teams are done with the All-Star only circuit they enter AA tournaments and it gets REALLY ugly from the 9U age group to the 14U age group. I am talking 25-0 games in the 2nd inning and several weekends in a row of playing 3 tournament games and going 0-3 unless they happen to meet another All-Star team and get a win. Now at the 8U coach pitch age level, those teams are generally competitive with just about all the teams with the exception of some of the club organizations whose 8U teams may play 8 tournaments a year and win just about every tournament they enter.

I have said for several years that today's AA selct level of ball is just about the same as the rec league ball I played when i was a kid and the select thing wasn't as prevalent and All-Stars were generally the best of the best. I watch the LL World Series every year and I love it but a 12U AA team in THIS aea would demolish just about every team I have ever seen in the LL World Series for the last 5 years. 12U AA teams here play on a bigger field, they play with real lead offs and if a 12 year old hits it out of the park it is not a 200' fence. 8 year olds play with a 200' fence, our 12 year olds play with a 275' fence, the pitching rubber is at 50' and the bases are 70'. Truthfully it is a very different brand of baseball.

Jake I totally respect what you are saying but if a kid in THIS area waits until they are 13 or 14 to try and get on a select team .....IT AIN'T HAPPENING! 13 or 14 year old kids who come out of rec league ball do not have the skill set or ability to play select level ball. I am not trying to diparage those kids in any way but that is simply the way it is around here. 13 or 14 year old kids on select ball clubs are more skilled and polished players and are the kids who will be playing on the HS teams all over the DFW area and the state.

[The Football Ref]

North Carolina has a few Travel teams in the Charlotte area.

The Megastars is one organization. Tony Womack coaches their 10U team.

This tourney from April shows the teams origins.

http://www.eastcoastsports.org/TTOneSched.aspx?tid=TZ0105&year=2009&div=U12M01


There's even more up in Greensboro if you don't mind driving.

[mudvnine]

See mudvnine and others I pretty much agree with just about all the points you guys made. The point I made about a rec team losing 100 times out of 100 holds true HERE, not necessarily SoCal or anywhere else but I guarantee you it absolutley holds true here. The local youth league in my town fields All-Star teams every summer. Many local organizations host All-Star only tournamnets and they are generally very competitive tournaments at all age groups from 8 -14. Once these All-Star teams are done with the All-Star only circuit they enter AA tournaments and it gets REALLY ugly from the 9U age group to the 14U age group. I am talking 25-0 games in the 2nd inning and several weekends in a row of playing 3 tournament games and going 0-3 unless they happen to meet another All-Star team and get a win. Now at the 8U coach pitch age level, those teams are generally competitive with just about all the teams with the exception of some of the club organizations whose 8U teams may play 8 tournaments a year and win just about every tournament they enter.

I have said for several years that today's AA selct level of ball is just about the same as the rec league ball I played when i was a kid and the select thing wasn't as prevalent and All-Stars were generally the best of the best. I watch the LL World Series every year and I love it but a 12U AA team in THIS aea would demolish just about every team I have ever seen in the LL World Series for the last 5 years. 12U AA teams here play on a bigger field, they play with real lead offs and if a 12 year old hits it out of the park it is not a 200' fence. 8 year olds play with a 200' fence, our 12 year olds play with a 275' fence, the pitching rubber is at 50' and the bases are 70'. Truthfully it is a very different brand of baseball.

Jake I totally respect what you are saying but if a kid in THIS area waits until they are 13 or 14 to try and get on a select team .....IT AIN'T HAPPENING! 13 or 14 year old kids who come out of rec league ball do not have the skill set or ability to play select level ball. I am not trying to diparage those kids in any way but that is simply the way it is around here. 13 or 14 year old kids on select ball clubs are more skilled and polished players and are the kids who will be playing on the HS teams all over the DFW area and the state.

Jmart, I think I see where our difference in experiences arise; our rec ball is PONY sanctioned and therefore our 11/12 year old "Bronco" allstars are playing by pretty much the same rules and field dimensions (48/70) as TB, so the transitional period to acclimate to leading off and playing on the slighter larger field is not there.

Two years ago the league I came from, Bronco (11/12) "A" team place second in the PONY World Series in Monterrey, CA and along the way of accumulating a 43-1 record (their only loss was in the final game to Tamiami, FL; who they had already beaten in bracket play of a double-elimination tournament, however no other "deciding" game was played . . . go figure), they won two separate USSSA - 12U AAA tournaments by convincing margins and would have held their own against many TB Majors teams. Now in all fairness and full disclosure, this was an usually talented allstar team (9 of the 13 played TB with me the year prior to the season), but in past years the teams that came out winning PONY zone sanction play, were every bit as good as most 12U AAA teams.

Would this team been as good had the majority not played TB? Probably, they were just that talented a bunch of kids and the year we played TB as 11's was the first year of TB for all but one of them.

Since you are comparing travel ball to LL play, then yes, I would say your assessment is accurate; I was comparing PONY baseball where the differences are much less noticeable. IMO

[Jake Patterson]

Jake I totally respect what you are saying but if a kid in THIS area waits until they are 13 or 14 to try and get on a select team .....IT AIN'T HAPPENING! 13 or 14 year old kids who come out of rec league ball do not have the skill set or ability to play select level ball. I am not trying to diparage those kids in any way but that is simply the way it is around here. 13 or 14 year old kids on select ball clubs are more skilled and polished players and are the kids who will be playing on the HS teams all over the DFW area and the state.Again, I hear what you are saying, I felt the same way when my kids were coming up. What I found when I began coaching HS is this is usually spewed by parents who kids are neck deep in TB. The bottom line is excessive ball when younger has more down side than upside. I use to say this often and will say it again here, "show me one expert ho feels more is better." And I'm not talking about parents or coaches who make a few extra bucks off the backs of delusional parents and hopeful players.

And for the record I was born in LA and spend a great deal of time in Florida during spring training. My family lives in South Carolina.

[jmart2663]

I agree with you Jake but we are talking about 2 different things I think. Youa re adressing "excessive" play and I am talking about the norm as I see it with MOST teams and kids in this area. Yes there are orgainzations and teams who play 70-80-90 or even 100 games a year. I don't prescribe to that and I don't know anyone who does that but I know it does happen. Around here the HS coaches ask the freshmen who ashow up to the tryout and fill out a form where they specifically ask what select teams the kids have played for. Most HS coaches have their own select teams at various age groups that they field throughout the year before and after the HS season and genreally the freshman, JV and Varsity squads all play, sponsored by the school, in a select league from August through January. My kid does play select ball and I know lots of kids who do and I don;t know any, not saying there aren't some out there, who play because their mom or dad want them to. They all play because THEY want to and because they love the game and want to become better players. Generally MOST select ball clubs are sanctioned by local youth organizations where the rec league kids play. The youth orgainzations have rec league ball AND select league ball. I have argued with the board of my local youth organization for several years that they were ruining rec league ball and truthfully they have. At 9U the select teams start being sanctioned and by 10 ALL the better kids are out of rec league and play for select teams in the select league and then go on to play tournaments from the middle of May through the end of June. Then there's a break for a few months and back to fall ball, both rec and select league and tournaments.

[Jake Patterson]

I agree with you Jake but we are talking about 2 different things I think. Youa re adressing "excessive" play and I am talking about the norm as I see it with MOST teams and kids in this area. Yes there are orgainzations and teams who play 70-80-90 or even 100 games a year. I don't prescribe to that and I don't know anyone who does that but I know it does happen. Around here the HS coaches ask the freshmen who ashow up to the tryout and fill out a form where they specifically ask what select teams the kids have played for. Most HS coaches have their own select teams at various age groups that they field throughout the year before and after the HS season and genreally the freshman, JV and Varsity squads all play, sponsored by the school, in a select league from August through January. My kid does play select ball and I know lots of kids who do and I don;t know any, not saying there aren't some out there, who play because their mom or dad want them to. They all play because THEY want to and because they love the game and want to become better players. Generally MOST select ball clubs are sanctioned by local youth organizations where the rec league kids play. The youth orgainzations have rec league ball AND select league ball. I have argued with the board of my local youth organization for several years that they were ruining rec league ball and truthfully they have. At 9U the select teams start being sanctioned and by 10 ALL the better kids are out of rec league and play for select teams in the select league and then go on to play tournaments from the middle of May through the end of June. Then there's a break for a few months and back to fall ball, both rec and select league and tournaments.We're not that far apart...
I will tell you however that MOST IAC's do not allow HS coaches to coach his kids off season or there are very strict restrictions.

[mudvnine]

We're not that far apart...
I will tell you however that MOST IAC's do not allow HS coaches to coach his kids off season or there are very strict restrictions.

July 1, 2008 the California Interscholastic Federation (CIF) eliminated Rule 313 known as the "Association Rule" which will now allow coaches to coach their players during the off season, with the exception of during the "Summer Dead Time Rule" period which remained unchanged; where ALL sports must observe a 21 consecutive day Dead Period from the close of school in June, or June 13 whichever comes first, and August 24, 2008, the day before Fall Sports season begins. During the Dead Period, the only contact allowed between high school coaches and our students is supervised weightlifting.

This was greatly appreciated by many of us, making it much easier for us that were TB coaches prior to coaching at the HS level to continue coaching teams we had for years and now include some of our HS players that better both programs.

[Jake Patterson]

July 1, 2008 the California Interscholastic Federation (CIF) eliminated Rule 313 known as the "Association Rule" which will now allow coaches to coach their players during the off season, with the exception of during the "Summer Dead Time Rule" period which remained unchanged; where ALL sports must observe a 21 consecutive day Dead Period from the close of school in June, or June 13 whichever comes first, and August 24, 2008, the day before Fall Sports season begins. During the Dead Period, the only contact allowed between high school coaches and our students is supervised weightlifting.

This was greatly appreciated by many of us, making it much easier for us that were TB coaches prior to coaching at the HS level to continue coaching teams we had for years and now include some of our HS players that better both programs.
Mud, can you give me a direct link?? I would love to have the CIAC reconsider this rule. Which, by the way, as a Legionnaire, I disagree with.
Jake

[JJA]

Jake,

Mud's right and now the California high school coaches are allowed to coach the kids in the off-season with the exception of the dark period in August (there must be 21 days off after June but the overwhelming number of teams shut down in August). Here's a link that discusses the rule:

http://www.insidesocal.com/paspreps/2008/05/question-and-answer-time-with.html

This has now lead in just this year to very long off-season programs for the high school kids in our area, with 70+ games a year now commonplace across southern California. Fall baseball is now very long, with practices allowed after 6th period which makes for very long days for the kids (3 hours a day of practice fairly common in our area in the fall).

[Baseball gLove]

This had been discussed here before:
Yes legally. CIF changed the rules. Coaches are now allowed to maintain teams year round, except for August Dark period.

It appears to be a Southern Section CIF only rule:

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ON THE ELIMINATION OF THE ASSOCIATION RULE
Author: Thom Simmons
Published on: 05/23/2008
On April 24, 2008, the C.I.F. Southern Section Council voted to eliminate C.I.F. Southern Section Blue Book Rule 313, the Association Rule. This rule stated, “During the school year, prior to the established date for authorized before and after-school practice in a particular sport and following an individual’s or team’s last authorized competition, a student may receive athletic instruction in a C.I.F. Southern Section approved sport only during one regularly scheduled physical education period in which the student is enrolled and earning credit for that particular sport.”

Since that time, the C.I.F. Southern Section Office has received many calls and emails with questions on what effects this rule change will have on our member schools. The following information is designed to help answer some of the more frequent questions that have arisen. If you have further questions, please do not hesitate to contact our office.

RULE 313 - THE ASSOCIATION RULE – ELIMINATED

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Question - When does the elimination of the Association Rule take effect?

Answer – July 1, 2008

Question – What effect does the elimination of this rule have on 6th Period off-season Physical Education classes.

Answer – There will no longer be any restrictions on what coaches can do with their students after the 6th period class is over. Coaches will be allowed to remain with their students and continue to instruct them in the particular skills of their sport after their 6th period class time has concluded.

Question – What effect does this rule change have on Rule 314, the Conditioning Rule?

Answer – With the elimination of the Association Rule, Rule 314, the Conditioning Rule, is no longer valid in the C.I.F. Southern Section.

Question – Can members of the high school athletic staff coach their own students in off-season leagues?


Answer – Yes. Members of the high school athletic staff may organize, sponsor or coach teams outside the high school season of sport, during the school year, with students from their high school on them.

Question – Can club coaches coach club teams and high school teams?

Answer – Yes. A club coach can coach at a high school and coach a club team, outside the high school season of sport, during the school year, with students from that same high school on it.

Question – What effect does this rule change have on the Summer Dead Period?
Answer – None. The Summer Dead Period Rule is unchanged. All sports must observe a 21 consecutive day Dead Period from the close of school in June, or June 13 whichever comes first, and August 24, 2008, the day before Fall Sports season begins. During the Dead Period, the only contact allowed between high school coaches and their students is supervised weightlifting.

Question – Can football programs wear helmets and shoulder pads during the off-season?

Answer – No. The existing rules on when helmets and shoulder pads can be worn, when sleds can be used, what equipment can be used during Spring Practice and Summertime Rules are unchanged. Also, the rule regarding team contact football camps is not affected by the elimination of the Association Rule.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake,

Mud's right and now the California high school coaches are allowed to coach the kids in the off-season with the exception of the dark period in August (there must be 21 days off after June but the overwhelming number of teams shut down in August). Here's a link that discusses the rule:

http://www.insidesocal.com/paspreps/2008/05/question-and-answer-time-with.html

This has now lead in just this year to very long off-season programs for the high school kids in our area, with 70+ games a year now commonplace across southern California. Fall baseball is now very long, with practices allowed after 6th period which makes for very long days for the kids (3 hours a day of practice fairly common in our area in the fall).This is much loser than many states...

[coach scotty]

It's true that athleticism goes a long way, but an edge is an edge. Someone who is naturally athletic has an obvious edge, whereas someone of lesser build may have to build up their edge by honing skills and attitude over the years.

Playing travel may not be necessary, but it may also be the only way a player can compete for a spot on a team.

This I completely agree with. It's the completely delusional statement that no kid no matter how talented he is can make a HS team if he doesn't play travel ball.

[coach scotty]

Scotty you seem to have almost zero understanding as to what I am trying to say. Obviously things are done differently in your neck of the woods than they are in my neck of the woods. A typical season for an 11-13 year old select team around here is between 45 and 70 games over the course of the spring/summer and fall seasons. Typically the bulk of the games are played in the spring and summer where a team might play 40 games or so at the high end followed by a few months off and maybe 15 -20 games in the fall followed by a few months off. It has NOTHING to do with the money being spent it has to do with the quality and level of ball that is played. A typical 14 year old AA team, if they were to play a typical 14 year old rec team, would win 100 games out of 100 with an average run difference of 30 runs by the 3rd inning.

I completely agree, if all the kids stayed in rec league the better players would still be the better players. Bottom line is, kids who have a desire to play and compete want to play more than 20 games a YEAR, they want to practice more than 20-30 times a YEAR and they want to experience more challenging levels of competition and develop higher levels of skill. They CAN'T do that in rec league baseball in THIS area. They will NOT have ANY chance of playing HS baseball in THIS area if all they ever play is rec league baseball.

A lot of you guys make a big deal out of spending money to play baseball and that confuses the heck out of me. It costs money to play rec league baseball. Rec league kids go out and buy all the same expensive equipmet everyone else buys. 12 games for the 5 week spring season costs a 12 year old $125.00 to sign up. That same 12 year old can tryout for a select team and if he makes it he can play somewhere around 40 games for $3- 400. It is less money per game to play select ball not to mention the boon to the local economies the tournaments generate, the jobs created and the GREAT time it is for the kids!

There are TONS of Texas kids playing on college and pro rosters all over the country so I'm not quite sure what you are talking about with that comment. The University of Texas who has won several College World Series has a ton of Texas kids on the roster as do many colleges all over the country. Where are you from? Is there an inordinate amount of kids from your state on college rosters? That's really a ridiculous statement in my opinion. Look I am sure travel ball, as many of you call it, may be the bain of baseball where some of you live BUT HERE it is the norm, it is a MAJOR factor in developing good baseball players at all levels and it is a good, fun thing. Hell Chris Davis, 1st baseman for the Texas Rangers played for the Dallas Tigers select baseball organization from age 16 - 18 if I rememebr correctly, before that he played on several select ball clubs out of the Longview area. The D-Bat select baseball organization has many kids who sign with major college programs every year and they have teams from 8U - 18U there is the McKinney Marshalls, the Dallas Patriots, the Flower Mound Warriors, and many, many others that routinely produce very high quality baseball players who all go their seperate ways and play on their HS teams during the HS baseball season.

I don't know, as I have read some of the arguments and comments made about select youth baseball I have always been left with the impression that those who dislike it have experienced a VERY different type of thing than we have here in the DFW area, the Houston area and all over Texas really.

Considering those states have more High Schools than this country has colleges and the fact that super stud five tool players are cut left and right from the HS teams there. Logic would dictate that all of the HS players would take up all of the collage roster spots. I just shocks me that kids from around here keep being recruited. I don't know why colleges bother. And yes slick I was making an exaggeration kinda similar to what I was reading.

I actually have no problem with travel ball in general. It this god awful sales pitch that has developed trying to scare parents into forcing their kids to play. If the best ball player in texas would have never played travel, although he may not be the BEST player, he would still be in the top 10% and would still make his HS team. He is not great because he played travel he played travel be cause he was great.

Every kid on my towns HS team plays travel ball except one. He is a big time football player and didn't have time for travel ball. He is the best player on the team and only a freshman. Talent wins every time.

[scorekeeper]

Nice post...

I don't have a "mindset", just going off what I see as facts... I would LOVE to see HS Baseball flourish, unfortunately with the economics the way they are here in FLORIDA with all the government/educational cutbacks, I cannot foresee it...

FYI: A vast majority of HS games here, IN CENTRAL FLORIDA, start at 7pm, for the most part, are all played under the lights.

Well, maybe you Floridians are a much wealthier group than those here in the looney bin. Of the 160 or so schools in our section, I doubt that even a fourth have lights. There are 12 D1(Largest) schools in 2 leagues the north of our section that don’t have lights. There are 6 others in a 3rd league, but I’ve never been to any of their schools so I can’t say how many of them are lit.

[jmart2663]

This I completely agree with. It's the completely delusional statement that no kid no matter how talented he is can make a HS team if he doesn't play travel ball.

I looked through everything written in THIS thread and can't find where your statement above was asserted by ANYONE. Obviously you are the one having delusions about what is being said!

[jmart2663]

Considering those states have more High Schools than this country has colleges and the fact that super stud five tool players are cut left and right from the HS teams there. Logic would dictate that all of the HS players would take up all of the collage roster spots. I just shocks me that kids from around here keep being recruited. I don't know why colleges bother. And yes slick I was making an exaggeration kinda similar to what I was reading.

Uhhhh which states are you referring to? Are you using boolean logic because no one I know who is reasonable would think what you are asserting! Slick? Most people call me Big Daddy!

I actually have no problem with travel ball in general. It this god awful sales pitch that has developed trying to scare parents into forcing their kids to play. If the best ball player in texas would have never played travel, although he may not be the BEST player, he would still be in the top 10% and would still make his HS team. He is not great because he played travel he played travel be cause he was great.

Again not sure where anyone has asserted anything to the contrary, and what are you talking about "scare parents"? That is completely ridiculous and pretty damn presumptious if you ask me.

Every kid on my towns HS team plays travel ball except one. He is a big time football player and didn't have time for travel ball. He is the best player on the team and only a freshman. Talent wins every time.

I couldn't agree more and all the talented kids in THIS area play select baseball......PERIOD!

[scorekeeper]

I couldn't agree more and all the talented kids in THIS area play select baseball......PERIOD!

Talk about presumptuous statements. Look at what you’re saying! EVERY talented player means exactly that. Every player with any talent at all. But even if you meant something else, my guess is I could find at least one player in your area with loads of talent who doesn’t play select baseball. In fact, if you want to make a substantial bet, I’m more than willing to come to your area and find at least one player who doesn’t play select ball.

Jeez! Some of you folks need to realize that for the most part you’re talking to at least semi-literate adults who aren’t very often impressed by hyperbole that’s stated in absolutes?

[coach scotty]

I looked through everything written in THIS thread and can't find where your statement above was asserted by ANYONE. Obviously you are the one having delusions about what is being said!

You made this statement. Maybe I took it wrong but I don't see how I could have.

"THERE ARE NO REC LEAGUE KIDS THAT HAVE A CHANCE AT MAKING THE HS TEAM IN THIS AREA PERIOD, END OF STORY"

Nope I didn't take it wrong It's exactly what you said.

[coach scotty]

Most people call me Big Daddy!

Well that verifies a lot.

I couldn't agree more and all the talented kids in THIS area play select baseball......PERIOD!

All huh? I would be willing to bet a few aren't playing baseball at all. That they are on the football field.

[jmart2663]

I can't speak for the entire state but those in the school district I live in who have baseball talent play both football and baseball, and YES they played select baseball, at least the ones I know of personally.


Scorekeeper name your price and come on down my friend. The only change to the bet I am going to insist on is your search must be restricted to the school district I live in, I can't vouch for everyone in the whole state!

[jmart2663]

You made this statement. Maybe I took it wrong but I don't see how I could have.

"THERE ARE NO REC LEAGUE KIDS THAT HAVE A CHANCE AT MAKING THE HS TEAM IN THIS AREA PERIOD, END OF STORY"

Nope I didn't take it wrong It's exactly what you said.

I ABSOLUTELY 100% STAND BY THAT STATEMENT!

The statement I made above and the one you tried to pass off are two TOTALLY different statements. But I'll go ahead and play. Coaches in THIS area will not take a kid on the HS team that has NOT played select ball....PERIOD. I have been told that directly by 2 HS coaches in the area that I live in.

[jmart2663]

Talk about presumptuous statements. Look at what you’re saying! EVERY talented player means exactly that. Every player with any talent at all. But even if you meant something else, my guess is I could find at least one player in your area with loads of talent who doesn’t play select baseball. In fact, if you want to make a substantial bet, I’m more than willing to come to your area and find at least one player who doesn’t play select ball.

Jeez! Some of you folks need to realize that for the most part you’re talking to at least semi-literate adults who aren’t very often impressed by hyperbole that’s stated in absolutes?

Uhhhh I am stating facts that aren't meant to impress anyone but rather to state how youth baseball works in the area I live and understand better how it works in other areas!

[JJA]

Not true in our area of southern California. I'll agree that for the most part travel ball kids have a big advantage, but certainly some guys who don't play travel ball do make it. The great athletes stand out, travel ball or no travel ball. The kids who do play travel ball have the advantage in that they're more polished, that the additional game play compensates to some degree for athleticism. When 45 kids are trying out for 17 spots as freshman, you bet, having that polished look does stand out for coaches who don't have the time or inclination to really evaluate the players thoroughly. But great athletes stand out, and they dominate, much to the chagrin of the travel ball dads who find out all that money they spent in travel ball doesn't even guarantee a starting spot in high school.

[songtitle]

There seems to be a lot of travel ball jealousy on this board. I have never understand the reason for it.

[Bolts-Baseball]

Well, maybe you Floridians are a much wealthier group than those here in the looney bin. Of the 160 or so schools in our section, I doubt that even a fourth have lights. There are 12 D1(Largest) schools in 2 leagues the north of our section that don’t have lights. There are 6 others in a 3rd league, but I’ve never been to any of their schools so I can’t say how many of them are lit.I'll even take it further, in that EVERY ballfield that we've ever played at here in FL - from Cal Ripken league-ball to USSSA/AAU/Triple Crown - travel to high school has had lights... I simply cannot remember EVER playing games on a field/complex in FL that didn't have them...

[Jake Patterson]

I ABSOLUTELY 100% STAND BY THAT STATEMENT!

The statement I made above and the one you tried to pass off are two TOTALLY different statements. But I'll go ahead and play. Coaches in THIS area will not take a kid on the HS team that has NOT played select ball....PERIOD. I have been told that directly by 2 HS coaches in the area that I live in.

J, I would offer that you have misunderstood your coaches' statements. Most HS coaches, could care less where their players play off season. The ONLY thing they care about is the talent they bring to the table during try-outs. NOW I have heard coaches tell parents of marginal players that if they want a chance of playing on their HS team they need to play TB. This, in my experience, as a HS coach is a nice way of telling parents and players that their son's skills are marginal.

BTW- I am involved with TB (Legion Ball). Because we pull from 5 area high schools, and several of our players are college baseball players, not all our HS players make our team. And not all the talented HS players tryout due to other committments.

[Jake Patterson]

There seems to be a lot of travel ball jealousy on this board. I have never understand the reason for it.I do. Baseball is going the way of basketball and for no reason. TB organizations such as USSSA, AAU, the showcase companies, etc., have conducted - and in my mind - have been very successful at conducting scare tactics marketing. They sell to vulnerable/young parents that in order for your son or DD to have any chance at HS, college, or professional ball they HAVE to play in "our" organizations. Folks, this is BIG business perpetuated by those feeding off the frenzy. They make you believe that this is the only way to participate in the sport at a higher level. Some parents will move their children to the sun belt states to play year round to follow the dream. They spend thousands of dollars per year for little Johnny to become the best he can be. The fact of the matter (See Baseball Reference) is the overall number of the U.S. players making it to the professional ranks, in spite of all this extra youth training, is falling. The percentages of players from the sun belt states (while higher than the snow belt states - Again see Baseball Ref., but not as much as some would like you to believe) have not changed proportionally to the amount of money thrown at youth baseball in states like Ca, FL, TX, etc...

No matter how you slice and dice it.. Most parents of TB ball (Myself included - years ago) drink the kool aide. Having had many players move on to college ball I would offer that these players would have played college regardless of what kind of team they played for or whether or not they played TB as a 10 y/o.

[Jake Patterson]

The other thought I will add.... A caution I often offer parents...

Parents who place a high priority on baseball because of their own personal vicarious needs many times take away from their child the opportunity to excell in those areas he/she may have talent.

What if they were meant to play piano???

Personal example: My dad played ball. His brothers and father played ball. All my cousins played, several in college, one was rookie of the year, I played well into adult hood, etc., etc., I felt my youngest had the gene and pushed baseball.... My mother was an accomplshed pianist who could not catch a ball if her life depended on it. What if???

[JJA]

Jake,

I concur with everything you're saying, but with one additional observation. The biggest problem with youth baseball today is that pickup games have disappeared from the landscape. When I was a kid, little league was a supplement, actually a small supplement, to the baseball I played with other kids. I can remember going to the local park on the weekends, every day during the summer, often playing baseball from sun up to sun down. No adults around, just kids playing ball. If we had enough for a full game, great. If only 4 showed up, we played over-the-line. Consequently, we got good. Little league was just a more formal version of the game that was centered around our pickup games, not the other way around.

Unfortunately, pickup games have become a thing of the past. All the ball kids play today is formal, at least in the area of southern California where I live. Consequently I argue that 20 little league games is grossly insufficient to learn a game that has so many skills like baseball. That's what I see as the advantage of travel ball, that you get to play a lot more games than you get in little league. Everything you argue is correct, that it's about money, it's about parents' egos, etc. I'll also add my observation that in general travel ball coaching is barely better than little league coaching, in contrast to what most travel ball coaches will tell you. (They recruit better obviously.)

That said, just having the kids play more ball is a huge advantage. You're right, the great athletes do make it anyway, travel ball or no travel ball. But for any kid, average or great, being able to play more games just makes them better at the game all around. It's such a difficult game, it takes even great players time to learn to hit all types of pitches, and different types of pitchers, experience all the different situations that come up in the game. There is no substitute for game play and experience.

I wish it were more like the past, with less adult involvement and more pickup games. I don't believe travel ball has improved play compared to when I was a kid, I really don't. But given that kids don't play pickup ball anymore, and given little league is only ~20 games, travel ball is becoming the only option for kids who like the game and want to play more. That's why my son is in it. Played all the sports until he was 12, wrecked his knee playing soccer, and then decided to play baseball full time because he really liked it the best. Unfortunately, travel ball is the only option in a case like this.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake,

I concur with everything you're saying, but with one additional observation. The biggest problem with youth baseball today is that pickup games have disappeared from the landscape. When I was a kid, little league was a supplement, actually a small supplement, to the baseball I played with other kids. I can remember going to the local park on the weekends, every day during the summer, often playing baseball from sun up to sun down. No adults around, just kids playing ball. If we had enough for a full game, great. If only 4 showed up, we played over-the-line. Consequently, we got good. Little league was just a more formal version of the game that was centered around our pickup games, not the other way around.

Unfortunately, pickup games have become a thing of the past. All the ball kids play today is formal, at least in the area of southern California where I live. Consequently I argue that 20 little league games is grossly insufficient to learn a game that has so many skills like baseball. That's what I see as the advantage of travel ball, that you get to play a lot more games than you get in little league. Everything you argue is correct, that it's about money, it's about parents' egos, etc. I'll also add my observation that in general travel ball coaching is barely better than little league coaching, in contrast to what most travel ball coaches will tell you. (They recruit better obviously.)

That said, just having the kids play more ball is a huge advantage. You're right, the great athletes do make it anyway, travel ball or no travel ball. But for any kid, average or great, being able to play more games just makes them better at the game all around. It's such a difficult game, it takes even great players time to learn to hit all types of pitches, and different types of pitchers, experience all the different situations that come up in the game. There is no substitute for game play and experience.

I wish it were more like the past, with less adult involvement and more pickup games. I don't believe travel ball has improved play compared to when I was a kid, I really don't. But given that kids don't play pickup ball anymore, and given little league is only ~20 games, travel ball is becoming the only option for kids who like the game and want to play more. That's why my son is in it. Played all the sports until he was 12, wrecked his knee playing soccer, and then decided to play baseball full time because he really liked it the best. Unfortunately, travel ball is the only option in a case like this. J, Good post... I believe your observations are spot on..

[AgentX]

I'll even take it further, in that EVERY ballfield that we've ever played at here in FL - from Cal Ripken league-ball to USSSA/AAU/Triple Crown - travel to high school has had lights... I simply cannot remember EVER playing games on a field/complex in FL that didn't have them...
Yep. It's a must down here.

Remember, we play year round, not just during Daylight Savings Time. :D

I also agree that the lack of pick-up ball has an impact on the game. But the biggest reason for its departure is the vast array of choices kids have today. Granted, many of them involve sitting in front of a video console or computer and giving their thumbs a workout, but the rise of organized baseball is also in lockstep with the rise of other organized sports and non-sport programs.

My kids don't get to be as bored as I was at their age.

[ctandc]

I agree with the comment about the lack of "sandlot" or "pick up" baseball for today's players. I think the effect of this is more than just fundamentals. I think it has many players throwing less than in the past. Which personally I think HELPS contribute to injuries. Pitching overuse and lack of arm conditioning, in my lowly opinion, are probably the biggest reasons for all the injuries we hear about. Not to mention that going to the specialists and docs in today's world is common. Back when I was a kid, and I'm still in my 30's, if you arm hurt, you didn't pitch or throw until it stopped hurting.

Not to mention simple REPS when it comes to playing outfield and infield. there is not 'training' for outfielders for reading balls off the bat...just seeing thousands of shots off the bat...

Again, I still stand by my statement that it very much depends on where you live whether or not travel ball players vs rec players and their presence on HS ball teams.

A good athlete, is a good athlete, is a good athlete. And travel ball can help kids refine their skills, and simply get more EXPERIENCE in the game, but there are some absolutes that will get in many players' way.

Size, speed, arm strength etc.

Not to mention it depends on the coaching that these kids are seeing, travel ball OR rec ball. If a guy is just recruiting 12 studs to win tourneys, then those kids won't advance in their skill level, unless they are getting that coaching from somewhere else.

[shake-n-bake]

The other thought I will add.... A caution I often offer parents...

Parents who place a high priority on baseball because of their own personal vicarious needs many times take away from their child the opportunity to excell in those areas he/she may have talent.

What if they were meant to play piano???

Personal example: My dad played ball. His brothers and father played ball. All my cousins played, several in college, one was rookie of the year, I played well into adult hood, etc., etc., I felt my youngest had the gene and pushed baseball.... My mother was an accomplshed pianist who could not catch a ball if her life depended on it. What if???

Is there anyone out there that doesn't have vicarious needs? We were watching a Dos Equis beer commercial and one of the lines is that the guy "lives vicariously through himself." That's funny, I don't care who you are. My son asked me what vicarious meant and I explained it. The first analogy that he came up with was looking at pictures of other people's vacations when they e-mail them to you while they're still there - I said, "Bingo."

In my case, I didn't push baseball. The kid has been pushing it for a long time. He's a pretty decent player and I get what you might call "invested" in his play. I want to see him play well and stand out, but I don't ever want the game to be a downer for him. I was talking with a parent at a game and he said that on several occassions he's made his 11 y/o cry on the way home because of what he said was his "honest assessment of his play." Wow!

He asked me if I ever jump my boy's rear-end for not making plays that he's supposed to. I said, "He makes all the plays he supposed to. The ones he doesn't make, he'll make next year." What I felt like telling him is the last thing I want is my kid to be made to put his tail between his legs. Guess what I'm saying is that maybe I'm invested in my son's sports, but I've seen worse.

Getting back to your point Jake, I'm sure there's been kids pushed to play the piano that would've been able to hit a curve ball. My kid spends as much time playing ball as anyone and has time for other interests. Usually turns out though that I have to push him to do things outside of sports. Heck, he won't go to Disneyland if there's a baseball tournament to be played. If he wanted to play the piano instead, I'm sure he'd let me know.

[songtitle]

If a guy is just recruiting 12 studs to win tourneys, then those kids won't advance in their skill level, unless they are getting that coaching from somewhere else.

Truer words were never spoken. Parents beware.

[shake-n-bake]

I've noticed that my son and his friends have been playing a lot of pick-up baseball lately. It started with wiffle ball games in the cul-de-sac. Just 3 or 4 kids, using ghost runners, and playing for hours. More and more of their friends started joining in and now its baseball games wherever they can find a field not in use. It's funny because it's been a long time since I was that age and it was just like that.

Maybe it's been said already, but travel / select offers the advantage of having a higher least common denominator to teach to. Makes raising the level of expectations easier. There's things that cannot be coached, but there's also getting the most out of what you've got and the networking.

The HS my kids will go to has a lot of state championships in just about every sport and they've had more than their fair share of recent success. No travel / select kids that I know of. This area of the city has just LL. You'd have to travel to get your kid into travel :happy: As far as I know there's been a lot of talk of kids defecting, but I don't think it's actually been done yet. So our LL is probably a bit more competitive, but it seems to work or at least not poison the well for the opportunity for future success.

What's probably more important is that the school is the first or second largest in the state. There's bound to be more kids with those things you can't teach, i.e. size, speed, strength. Give these kids a year or two in a well coached Frosh / JV system, and they evidentally can get it done against kids with more competitive youth backgrounds.

[scorekeeper]

I can't speak for the entire state but those in the school district I live in who have baseball talent play both football and baseball, and YES they played select baseball, at least the ones I know of personally.

Scorekeeper name your price and come on down my friend. The only change to the bet I am going to insist on is your search must be restricted to the school district I live in, I can't vouch for everyone in the whole state!

I’m gonna save you a lot of embarrassment and $$$$$$$$ because I’d gladly put up as much as $500,000 because I don’t bet on such things unless I know I’m a lock to win.

You’ve already changes the parameters because you’re limiting the scope to not only your school district, but narrowing the talent requirement to baseball talent, and finally to players you know personally. Those were not the conditions you set up earlier.

You’re extrapolating the scope of what you KNOW is true to try to apply it to everyone everywhere, and that’s a bad thing to do. Why not just say that as far as you know, most, if not all of the players who make your HS team, played in some form of baseball that required their making the team over other players in some form of tryout system?

As Coach Scotty has pointed out, there are likely many very talented players in your corner of the world who aren’t even playing the game.

[scorekeeper]

I'll even take it further, in that EVERY ballfield that we've ever played at here in FL - from Cal Ripken league-ball to USSSA/AAU/Triple Crown - travel to high school has had lights... I simply cannot remember EVER playing games on a field/complex in FL that didn't have them...

I’m not calling you a liar at all! In fact, I’m jealous. In our LL district, there was only 1 complex that had lights for a 46/60 field, and the of the 120 or so games my son’s HS team played while he was on it, not more than 3 or 4 every year were on lighted fields.

We can only report what we either know from personal experience. Again, ya’ll in Fl are superior to us out here in Ca.

[bbb3601]

:bowdown: Me bowing to the master.

I’m gonna save you a lot of embarrassment and $$$$$$$$ because I’d gladly put up as much as $500,000 because I don’t bet on such things unless I know I’m a lock to win.

You’ve already changes the parameters because you’re limiting the scope to not only your school district, but narrowing the talent requirement to baseball talent, and finally to players you know personally. Those were not the conditions you set up earlier.

You’re extrapolating the scope of what you KNOW is true to try to apply it to everyone everywhere, and that’s a bad thing to do. Why not just say that as far as you know, most, if not all of the players who make your HS team, played in some form of baseball that required their making the team over other players in some form of tryout system?

As Coach Scotty has pointed out, there are likely many very talented players in your corner of the world who aren’t even playing the game.

[AgentX]

Again, ya’ll in Fl are superior to us out here in Ca.
Goes without saying. :D

[Jake Patterson]

Is there anyone out there that doesn't have vicarious needs?
Probably not... but I will offer it seems to diminish with age.

In my case, I didn't push baseball. The kid has been pushing it for a long time. He's a pretty decent player and I get what you might call "invested" in his play. I want to see him play well and stand out, but I don't ever want the game to be a downer for him. I was talking with a parent at a game and he said that on several occasions he's made his 11 y/o cry on the way home because of what he said was his "honest assessment of his play." Wow! Agree, a guy like this is a moron IMHO.

Getting back to your point Jake, I'm sure there's been kids pushed to play the piano that would've been able to hit a curve ball. My kid spends as much time playing ball as anyone and has time for other interests. Usually turns out though that I have to push him to do things outside of sports. Heck, he won't go to Disneyland if there's a baseball tournament to be played. If he wanted to play the piano instead, I'm sure he'd let me know.I don't know if he would if he never experienced it. Some (many) kids require exposure to an activity before they know whether or not they like it. ... but I get your point.

[jmart2663]

I’m gonna save you a lot of embarrassment and $$$$$$$$ because I’d gladly put up as much as $500,000 because I don’t bet on such things unless I know I’m a lock to win.

You’ve already changes the parameters because you’re limiting the scope to not only your school district, but narrowing the talent requirement to baseball talent, and finally to players you know personally. Those were not the conditions you set up earlier. Uhhh what were the conditions I set up earlier???

You’re extrapolating the scope of what you KNOW is true to try to apply it to everyone everywhere, and that’s a bad thing to do. Why not just say that as far as you know, most, if not all of the players who make your HS team, played in some form of baseball that required their making the team over other players in some form of tryout system?

I haven't extrapolated anything fruity...you have. I have made it very clear I am talking about things HERE. You looking for a fight score? I like to fight!

As Coach Scotty has pointed out, there are likely many very talented players in your corner of the world who aren’t even playing the game.

If they don't play the freakin game Score then they ain't part of the conversation! We ARE talking about BASEBALL PLAYERS right? Jeez I swear I wish some of these conversations could take place face to face. Whatever you are trying to do here Score is ridiculous and I ain't gonna play anymore!

You ain't gonna save me a darn thing score! I'll see your 500K....make sure you bring cash as I DON'T accept checks! The ONLY parameter I am putting on the bet is you gotta find one in the school district I live in. Of course it is limited to "baseball talent" we ain't talking about underwater basket weaving talent here knucklehead! I could care less if you go find kids on the football team or the LaCrosse team or the freakin bowling team but the determining factor is they have to be better than the worst kid on the HS varsity team!!!! I mean what the hell kinda talent are we talking about here score? Knitting talent? I could care less where you find them just come freaking find them, in THIS school district and can make one of the 3 5A HS BASEBALL teams in THIS area! I've got cash in hand, unless you are too embarrassed or just tired of talking out of your rear end......Come on down...YOU'RE the next contestant I am looking forward to meeting in person AND taking your money! Money Bags!

[scorekeeper]

… But the biggest reason for its departure is the vast array of choices kids have today. …

Yep, that’s a big reason, as are what others have pointed out. But while I agree with those things all being valid reasons for a drop in the percentage of kids that play ball vs play other sports, I think there’s a much more subtle reason behind it.

For whatever reason, a smaller and smaller percentage of participants actually know much about the many facets of the game as what people did in times past. One thing the sand lots did that organized ball has all but eliminated, is teaching participants how to manage a game.

Heck, take 11 kids to a place like a Kommie Kickball field, and tell them to play a game. Likely one of the 1st things you’ll hear, is that there’s no field! Years ago, no one would have blinked an eye! Someone would mark out a place for home, stepped off 90’, or thereabout, to each of the bases, while someone else found boxes, boards, rocks, or even an unused hat or glove for bases.

Getting past that, prolly the next thing you hear would be that there aren’t enough players! To many of today’s players, its totally inconceivable that a game could be played with less than 9 on each team. Since that’s such an abstract thought, assuming they could come up with the concept of one field hitting or some other modification of the game to fit the circumstances, is ridiculous.

But even if that was somehow gotten by, the next obstacle would be a killer. How do you not just choose teams, but teams that would be fairly equal too, especially with an uneven number of players? Should a different player play on both teams every different inning? Should 1 team get 2 medium players while the other gets 1 good player? Just think of all the possibilities!

Next would be who gets to do the choosing, or be the team captain? Should it be the best players, the biggest, maybe the oldest, or possible even the most experienced?

After that comes, what would be the order of choosing? Alternate choices is one way. After the 1st choice, each choice gets 2 is another. Choosing numbers, drawing straws, Fling-Flang-Floo, and Lord knows what else are others.

Then there are all kinds of ground rules to work out too. How many innings, what are the scoring limitations, who’s going to make safe/out, ball/strike calls, etc..

Those things and others taught kids things about the game that today’s kids don’t even have a clue about. Those are the things that not only taught the game, they taught fairness, gamesmanship, how to work out problems in a group situation, and many many other things that are missed by today’s kids, and in fact weren’t learned by many of today’s parents because this isn’t the 1st generation who had to learn to deal with those things on their own.

If you don’t believe how important those things are or that today’s bundles of joy can’t handle things like that, arrange with another team to play a game. Then make sure there’s equipment available at the field, then have everyone just drop off the kids with the only instruction to play a game with no adult input.

The great thing is, if the adults truly stay away, the kids will figger it out! But, once they do, they’ll forever feel differently about the game and the adults who run it for them.