What new coaches should know about ejections

[MrUmpireSir]

For any coaches who may be newer to the game, here are some things that you should know, from an umpire's perspective (okay, from "one" umpire's perspective - I speak for no one but myself):

The Caveats:
These are generalizations. There are no hard and fast rules. Umpire experience & personalities, local customs, level of play, game dynamics and the like are all variables. I have seen nauseating displays of umpires taking way too much (humiliating to see) and the other extreme of the occasional head-hunter in blue. In general though, here are some things you should really avoid:

Violating a Rule that Requires an Ejection:
Most rulesets have rules where a violation requires the umpire to eject someone. An example in the Official Rules of Baseball (OBR) is the pitcher delivering a “shine” or “spit” ball. Associations often have “malicious contact” and “tobacco” rules that require immediate ejections. There are others – you should know them. The umpire who calls such a violation has no discretion under the rules – he must eject. Nothing personal.

Arguing Judgement Calls:
I have found that most coaches think it’s generally OK to come out and argue a judgement call they think the umpire got wrong. They are wrong:

Rule 9.01(d) Each umpire has authority to disqualify any player, coach, manager or substitute for objecting to decisions or for unsportsmanlike conduct or language, and to eject such disqualified person from the playing field….

Rule 9.02 (a) Any umpire’s decision which involves judgment, such as, but not limited to, whether a batted ball is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is final. No player, manager, coach or substitute shall object to any such judgment decisions.

The point here is to realize that when you decide to argue a judgement call, you are already on very, very thin ice. The umpire does not, by rule, have to give you any leash whatsoever – he may eject you at any time. The list of judgement calls covered by 9.02(a) is much longer than the examples given; also included are obstruction calls, interference calls, catch/no catch calls, balks, whether a batter was hit by a pitch (and whether he avoided), whether a runner left early on a caught fly ball, whether a base was missed, and so on.

Making a Demonstration, Gesticulation or Artistry:
Demonstrating against an umpire’s call is a pretty good way to get ejected. If you are discussing something with an umpire, do NOT do any of the following:


Remove and wave/throw your hat
Point at anything (like a base, where you think a pitch was, etc.)
Stomp your feet or move your body to demonstrate what you think happened during a play
Draw a line or anything else in the dirt (if a batter does it, he will usually be ejected before he finishes drawing the line)

Honestly folks – just don’t do it. Even if we think you have a point, or for whatever reason should be allowed a little bit of a leash, we’d pretty much have to dump you at this point anyway.

Using “Ejectable” Language:
Ejectable language includes saying to the umpire “You are…” followed by anything other than “…the GREATEST umpire ever!” or some variant. Profanity will get you dumped too, as will whatever the umpire thinks is too much criticism of a call. Words like “horrible”, “terrible”, “awful” and so on are like stomping your feet on that thin ice we talked about earlier. Any language suggesting that the umpire is cheating will get you tossed as well (“call it both ways Blue!”).

Ignoring a Warning:
Sometimes when I see a coach storming out of the dugout to argue, say, balls and strikes (including a checked swing appeal), I’ll put up a stop sign with one hand and point him back to the dugout with the other while saying “Do NOT come out here to argue balls and strikes coach, return to your dugout NOW!” If he keeps coming, I dump him before he even gets to me.

Likewise, if an umpire at any point says to you “That’s enough!” or “Knock it off!” you have been warned that further comments in the same vein will get you dumped. If there’s something on TV you need to get home to watch, by all means, continue.

Coach Tricks that Don’t Work:
Criticizing the umpire by speaking to a third party won’t work. Examples include:


Telling your pitcher “Don’t worry Johnny, you’re throwing strikes but the umpire’s not calling them both ways tonight.”
Telling the scorer to “Score that as a base hit” after the batter-runner was called out at first.
Telling your bench “Looks like we’re playing against two teams tonight, boys.”


If we can hear it, the result for you will be exactly the same as if you said it to us.

Some coaches never use ejectable language, but are constantly coming out to “discuss” judgement calls. They believe (wrongly, by the way) that by being a pain they will somehow get the “next” close call. They are always polite, but their constant visits to “discuss” our calls wear thin. A good umpire will be firm early in the game. I recall one coach who came out for the third time in the second inning to “discuss” a foul ball call I made. I told him “Coach, I am not discussing my judgement calls with you again tonight. Do not come out here again for anything like this again.” Sure enough, next inning out he comes, all polite and nice like. I asked him as soon as he got to me “Why are you here?” He said “Well, I just wanted to know why you called that a no catch.” I ejected him immediately. Saved myself six more innings of grief no doubt too.

Umpire Cues:
If an umpire is displeased with comments coming from your dugout, recognize these signs: At first, he may ignore it and expect you (the coach) to handle it. Next, he may stare briefly into the dugout with his mask on. After that, he may do so again with his mask off, in which case you are an inch away from someone getting tossed. These are all warnings. Ignore them at your peril.

While we’re on the subject of dugout behaviour, you should also be aware of the following rule:

Rule 4.08: When the occupants of a player’s bench show violent disapproval of an umpire’s decision, the umpire shall first give warning that such disapproval shall cease. If such action continues—

PENALTY: The umpire shall order the offenders from the bench to the club house. If he is unable to detect the offender, or offenders, he may clear the bench of all substitute players. The manager of the offending team shall have the privilege of recalling to the playing field only those players needed for substitution in the game.

If you Get Ejected…:
Here’s what you must do under OBR. You have exactly three, and only three, options:


First, you can simply leave the area and go home.
Second, you can go into the clubhouse (any building nearby) and stay there.
Third, you can change into street clothes and sit in the public galleries near the other team’s bench.


You may NOT hang around behind your team’s dugout, continue to coach from another location, etc. You are NOT part of the game anymore. If you refuse to leave, you will cause your team to forfeit the game. This is not pro ball. We don’t have big TV money that says the game will go on, no matter what your post-ejection behaviour may be. Either you’re leaving, or we’re leaving, and if we leave you lose the game.

Here are the relevant rules:

Rule 4.07: When a manager, player, coach or trainer is ejected from a game, he shall leave the field immediately and take no further part in that game. He shall remain in the club house or change to street clothes and either leave the park or take a seat in the grandstand well removed from the vicinity of his team’s bench or bullpen.

Rule 4.15(f): A game may be forfeited to the opposing team when a team fails to obey within a reasonable time the umpire’s order for removal of a player from the game;

That's it. Hope it helps.

[PhilliesPhan22]

I like this rule:

Model good sportsmanship and set a good example for the young men and women watching you coach. Respect the umpire's decision and trust his judgement. Many times he is umpiring the game alone and doing his best to get the call correct.

Don't do anything to get ejected, these kids look up to you. The game is all about teaching them about baseball and about life in general. Set a good example.

[wogdoggy]

For any coaches who may be newer to the game, here are some things that you should know, from an umpire's perspective (okay, from "one" umpire's perspective - I speak for no one but myself):

The Caveats:
These are generalizations. There are no hard and fast rules. Umpire experience & personalities, local customs, level of play, game dynamics and the like are all variables. I have seen nauseating displays of umpires taking way too much (humiliating to see) and the other extreme of the occasional head-hunter in blue. In general though, here are some things you should really avoid:

Violating a Rule that Requires an Ejection:
Most rulesets have rules where a violation requires the umpire to eject someone. An example in the Official Rules of Baseball (OBR) is the pitcher delivering a “shine” or “spit” ball. Associations often have “malicious contact” and “tobacco” rules that require immediate ejections. There are others – you should know them. The umpire who calls such a violation has no discretion under the rules – he must eject. Nothing personal.

Arguing Judgement Calls:
I have found that most coaches think it’s generally OK to come out and argue a judgement call they think the umpire got wrong. They are wrong:



The point here is to realize that when you decide to argue a judgement call, you are already on very, very thin ice. The umpire does not, by rule, have to give you any leash whatsoever – he may eject you at any time. The list of judgement calls covered by 9.02(a) is much longer than the examples given; also included are obstruction calls, interference calls, catch/no catch calls, balks, whether a batter was hit by a pitch (and whether he avoided), whether a runner left early on a caught fly ball, whether a base was missed, and so on.

Making a Demonstration, Gesticulation or Artistry:
Demonstrating against an umpire’s call is a pretty good way to get ejected. If you are discussing something with an umpire, do NOT do any of the following:


Remove and wave/throw your hat
Point at anything (like a base, where you think a pitch was, etc.)
Stomp your feet or move your body to demonstrate what you think happened during a play
Draw a line or anything else in the dirt (if a batter does it, he will usually be ejected before he finishes drawing the line)

Honestly folks – just don’t do it. Even if we think you have a point, or for whatever reason should be allowed a little bit of a leash, we’d pretty much have to dump you at this point anyway.

Using “Ejectable” Language:
Ejectable language includes saying to the umpire “You are…” followed by anything other than “…the GREATEST umpire ever!” or some variant. Profanity will get you dumped too, as will whatever the umpire thinks is too much criticism of a call. Words like “horrible”, “terrible”, “awful” and so on are like stomping your feet on that thin ice we talked about earlier. Any language suggesting that the umpire is cheating will get you tossed as well (“call it both ways Blue!”).

Ignoring a Warning:
Sometimes when I see a coach storming out of the dugout to argue, say, balls and strikes (including a checked swing appeal), I’ll put up a stop sign with one hand and point him back to the dugout with the other while saying “Do NOT come out here to argue balls and strikes coach, return to your dugout NOW!” If he keeps coming, I dump him before he even gets to me.

Likewise, if an umpire at any point says to you “That’s enough!” or “Knock it off!” you have been warned that further comments in the same vein will get you dumped. If there’s something on TV you need to get home to watch, by all means, continue.

Coach Tricks that Don’t Work:
Criticizing the umpire by speaking to a third party won’t work. Examples include:


Telling your pitcher “Don’t worry Johnny, you’re throwing strikes but the umpire’s not calling them both ways tonight.”
Telling the scorer to “Score that as a base hit” after the batter-runner was called out at first.
Telling your bench “Looks like we’re playing against two teams tonight, boys.”


If we can hear it, the result for you will be exactly the same as if you said it to us.

Some coaches never use ejectable language, but are constantly coming out to “discuss” judgement calls. They believe (wrongly, by the way) that by being a pain they will somehow get the “next” close call. They are always polite, but their constant visits to “discuss” our calls wear thin. A good umpire will be firm early in the game. I recall one coach who came out for the third time in the second inning to “discuss” a foul ball call I made. I told him “Coach, I am not discussing my judgement calls with you again tonight. Do not come out here again for anything like this again.” Sure enough, next inning out he comes, all polite and nice like. I asked him as soon as he got to me “Why are you here?” He said “Well, I just wanted to know why you called that a no catch.” I ejected him immediately. Saved myself six more innings of grief no doubt too.

Umpire Cues:
If an umpire is displeased with comments coming from your dugout, recognize these signs: At first, he may ignore it and expect you (the coach) to handle it. Next, he may stare briefly into the dugout with his mask on. After that, he may do so again with his mask off, in which case you are an inch away from someone getting tossed. These are all warnings. Ignore them at your peril.

While we’re on the subject of dugout behaviour, you should also be aware of the following rule:



If you Get Ejected…:
Here’s what you must do under OBR. You have exactly three, and only three, options:


First, you can simply leave the area and go home.
Second, you can go into the clubhouse (any building nearby) and stay there.
Third, you can change into street clothes and sit in the public galleries near the other team’s bench.


You may NOT hang around behind your team’s dugout, continue to coach from another location, etc. You are NOT part of the game anymore. If you refuse to leave, you will cause your team to forfeit the game. This is not pro ball. We don’t have big TV money that says the game will go on, no matter what your post-ejection behaviour may be. Either you’re leaving, or we’re leaving, and if we leave you lose the game.

Here are the relevant rules:



That's it. Hope it helps.





Telling the scorer to “Score that as a base hit” after the batter-runner was called out at first.


good luck throwing somebody out for that one..if i were the coach i'd call the cops on you for trying to toss me on that one then report you to the national umpires association,,if there was one....lol:happy:

all kidding aside that would make the ump look foolish in my opinion..

[jmart2663]

While I absolutely think Philies comments are right on I also think the umpires bear some responsibility in this. Let me preface my comments by saying I have NEVER been ejected from a game and have never argued with an umpire. I have asked for clarification and once I approached an umpire in utter disbelief after a call at the plate. I was told to get back to the dugout and immediately complied.

With that said, and MrUmpireSir did a very good job of listing rules that allow an umpire to eject someone from a game, umpires are absolutely fallable and I have yet to be a part of or attend a game at ANY level where mistakes aren't made by an umpre. Now of course they are judgement calls and obviously I and most coaches and managers understand we aren't going to talk an umpire into changing his call BUT we have a duty, a reposnsibility to the kids who look up to us to make an attempt to fight for their cause. If we don't do that we will simply lose them over time as they will quickly start to believe that we are not on their side and they will simply lose faith in us as leaders and examples.

I am certainly not saying a coach or manager has to run out and yell and scream and wave a hat and throw a fit but if an ump makes a call and we beleive it to be wrong and we NEVER make any case for the players on our team those players will simply lose all condifence and trust in their coaches or managers. In my opinion any umpire who ejects a coach or manager from HS level down to rec league ball is way more worried about his own ego rather than the integrity of the game. Obviously there are exceptions, if a caoch becomes physical, violent or verbally abusive that is unacceptable, but a coach who is making a case for his players should NEVER be ejected and umpires have a responsibility, in my opinion, to treat that coach just like they would a stranger on the street and afford him the proper respect and understanding that a coach deserves. Just like Phillie pointed out that coaches need to set a good example so to do umpires because kids are looking up to them as well as the coaches. I was involved in a game this past weekend that my team lost. I left that game with more respect for the plate umpire than I have ever felt for any umpire in any game that I have coached. He made a strike call on one of my players and I jumped up and said "Come on blue that hasn't been a strike all day". After that half of the inning was over I approached the umpire and apologized and told him I was out of line and it wouldn't happen again......here's the part where I gained a WHOLE new level of respect for this guy.....he proceeded to tell me that I was had no need to apologize becasue I was right and he made a bad call and that indeed the strike call he made was incorrect and hadn't been a strike all day. I thnked him and told him I apprecaited his honesty!

Always rememebr respect is earned not given!

[songtitle]

Most umps here allow a coach to blow some quick steam. Don't repeat it, get louder, run at the ump or anything crazy though.

[BallCoach06]

As Brian Cain would say:

"Are you that bad you need every call to go your way?"

"Control what you can control."

"So what! Next pitch."


Your players watch what you do as a coach. Set the example by staying under control. Make them realize they can't control calls of the game, but they do control how they respond to them.

[Drill]

Can a player ask where his strike zone is? Or where the strike zone is with out repercussion.


respectfully yours,

drill

[MrUmpireSir]

...umpires are absolutely fallable and I have yet to be a part of or attend a game at ANY level where mistakes aren't made by an umpre.

Correct. A plate umpire makes hundreds of judgement calls over the course of the game. It is highly unlikely that they will all be right.

Now of course they are judgement calls and obviously I and most coaches and managers understand we aren't going to talk an umpire into changing his call...

Correct. But you should have stopped there...

...BUT we have a duty, a reposnsibility to the kids who look up to us to make an attempt to fight for their cause.

Incorrect. "Fight"? For what "cause", exactly? Your duty is to lead by example and explain, if necessary, that the decisions need to be respected and arguing with officials is not appropriate. Anything else sends entirely the wrong message.

In my opinion any umpire who ejects a coach or manager from HS level down to rec league ball is way more worried about his own ego rather than the integrity of the game.

Wrong again. In my case, there's no emotional response from me at all. I could care less what anyone thinks about an ejection. My own personal thinking on the subject is that I never eject anyone: the person ejects themselves, through their own choices, and my role is limited to merely recognizing when that choice has been made.

After that half of the inning was over I approached the umpire and apologized and told him I was out of line and it wouldn't happen again......here's the part where I gained a WHOLE new level of respect for this guy.....he proceeded to tell me that I was had no need to apologize becasue I was right and he made a bad call and that indeed the strike call he made was incorrect and hadn't been a strike all day. I thnked him and told him I apprecaited his honesty!

Admitting to mistakes is a dangerous path for umpires. It gets old, fast, and I assure you that you would start to lose respoect for an umpire who made it a habit of apologizing for his missed calls. That said, I can recall "missing" two curve balls that should have been strikes to "finish" off a batter. I probably shouldn't have, but after the game in each case I causually said to the catcher "Sorry about that one" He knew what I meant and nodded. And no, I did not "even it up."

Always rememebr respect is earned not given!

Well, respect for the position of umpire is expected, regardless of the person occupying it. Respect for the person must, I agree, be earned.

[baseballdad]

Are you implying that it is unwise to imply a question of a judgement call by requesting a 2nd opinion by the other ump on the field?

[ctandc]

The umpires I experience are usually the opposite...you'd have to insult their ancestry loudly to get tossed.

I've been tossed a few times...

Once was a gamble to get my team motivated, since they were asleep at the wheel in their last pool play game. I figured getting them fired up might help...and it did...

I even asked the Ump to help me out a bit. He tried not to smile when he tossed me.

the other time...well there is history. And needless to say this guy doesn't ump anything beyond 7-9 year old ball anymore. He's LEGALLY Blind. And NO i'm NOT joking.

He literally has to put his counter an inch from his eyes to read it. The kids know who he is and know that they better be swinging at every pitch...

He blew a call at the plate. The opposing catcher looked at the Ump, AFTER he called my runner out, and said LOUDLY..
"What? I didn't even come close to tagging him..."

And yes I'm serious.

I have no problem with judgment calls. But I will discuss when it's a clear rules issue, and the Umpire is wrong, and it's an important time / call.

I'll never forget getting tossed when an Ump called a squeeze bunt foul. The ball bounced off the front of the plate, and died a few feet from the plate. NEVER touched the batter. Just the plate. The runner would have been safe, and the run from 3rd scored easily. He called "FOUL".

I asked if I could come talk to him. He said sure.

I asked him why it was foul. He said it hit the plate. I then asked him "So the plate is in foul territory?"

He answered "when a batted ball hits the plate it's foul."

I stepped behind homeplate, asked him nicely to join me. He did. I motioned to homeplate...and then to the painted foul lines. I then asked "Doesn't the plate look like it's in fair territory?"

He looked confused. Then replied "I won't argue a judgment call."

I then replied "Not knowing that home plate is in fair territory isn't a judgment call."

He ran me.

[MrUmpireSir]

Can a player ask where his strike zone is? Or where the strike zone is with out repercussion.

Generally speaking, it's not appropriate. Coaches at the lower levels seem to like to do this at plate meetings though. We usually do not answer, which is just as well, because we'd probably say something like "Over the plate, if the meds have kicked in" ;)

Seriously though, experienced catchers know how to quietly ask "Where was that one?" on one or two pitches to get an idea if their pitcher was high or inside, etc.

[MrUmpireSir]

I asked him why it was foul. He said it hit the plate. I then asked him "So the plate is in foul territory?"

He answered "when a batted ball hits the plate it's foul."

I stepped behind homeplate, asked him nicely to join me. He did. I motioned to homeplate...and then to the painted foul lines. I then asked "Doesn't the plate look like it's in fair territory?"

He looked confused. Then replied "I won't argue a judgment call."

I then replied "Not knowing that home plate is in fair territory isn't a judgment call."

He ran me.

See, now if you were smart, you would have said something like "Okay, then it's a foul ball because home plate is in foul territory - that's the rule being applied here Blue?" If he says yes, then calmly announce to him that you are playing the game under protest, and state the protest clearly as a rules-based protest "I protest the umpire's ruling that it is a rule of baseball that home plate is in foul territory. By rule, home plate is in fair territory and I ask that correct rule be applied and the game be continued from that point forward."

The umpire would have been required to meet with his partner and announce a final decision. If it goes against you (hard to believe) then play the rest of the game and pursue the protest if you lose. Please note that this appeal is a bit dicey, as fair/foul calls are judgement calls and therefore not subject to protest. You would need to convince whoever is hearing it that you were NOT protesting the umpire's judgement, but his misstatement of a rule. Might not work though. It's also problematic because it's hard to unring a bell - if he changes his call, what's he supposed to do? Put the batter on first? Like I said, dicey. But a bad call like that deserves the protest attempt, IMO.

But you got dumped instead.

[MrUmpireSir]

Are you implying that it is unwise to imply a question of a judgement call by requesting a 2nd opinion by the other ump on the field?

An excellent question. In some cases, it is appropriate to ask that an umpire get "help" from his partner. This is generally limited to cases where the plate umpire may have had a better angle on a swipe tag or a pulled foot off a base.

In most cases where the call is clearly that umpire's responsibility and no other umpire had a better angle, then asking him to get "help" is not appropriate. It's his call, he made it, that's it. We don't make committee decisions on routine judgement plays.

[Trickyhop]

Incorrect. "Fight"? For what "cause", exactly? Your duty is to lead by example and explain, if necessary, that the decisions need to be respected and arguing with officials is not appropriate. Anything else sends entirely the wrong message.

I played for a team with a hot head that we couldn't afford to get tossed, it was annoying, but we dealt with it. The ump called 2 balls IN THE DIRT strikes and down went hot head on strikes. Our coach came out and made hot head go to the bench and talked to the ump about his "strike zone". I could hear the discussion, and it consisted of my coach telling the ump the last 2 pitches were in the dirt, and then him turning around and walking back.

Fight might be too harsh of a word for this example, but I'd definitely say that my coach in that situation did NOT send the wrong message to our team with how he calmly handled the situation, especially with how out of hand the team I was on could get (too many players with anger issues). I had no reason to respect the decision of the umpire calling balls in the dirt strikes. It's just disrepectful to kids and the game to be unfair in judgement calls. And of course, I do realize that this was an extreme situation with a completely blind umpire, but I thought I'd throw the example out there as I don't see talking to an umpire about his "strike zone" as a completely black and white decision as far as right and wrong or appropriate or innappropriate go, though the rules may call for something otherwise. The rules of the game are boundaries to keep the game going and in a civilized manner, not an indication of what is right or wrong morally, as it seems you are viewing it.

Your thoughts?

[jmart2663]

Tricky what you describe is exactly what i mean by "fight for my players". As regards the strike zone it is specifically defined in the OBR. The problem I often run into is many umpires believe the strike zone is "THEIRS" and is whatever they define it to be from game to game.

MrUmpireSir is probably a good guy and most likely one of those umpires that you rarely notice in a game which is the way it should be BUT for MANY, MANY umpires out there their knowledge of the rules and ther judgement is suspect far too often. For myself, as a coach of young men who I do have a responsibility to, if I a call is made that is clearly wrong or a result of bad judgement I AM going to talk about it with the umpire. I am not going to set on my laurels and have my kids look at me with disdain because i lack the cahones to stand up for them when they are giving everything they have only to have an egotisitcal jerk with bad judgement influence the outcome of the game. I'm not talking about yelling, screaming and arguing I am talking about making a case to the umpire in the hopes that he sees the error of his ways and makes every effort possible to do a better job.

[HYP]

Here is one thing of many that umpires do that drive me crazy.

Pregame plate meeting. Umpire says look, my strike zone is one ball outside the black, 2 balls below the knees and one ball below the letters. Which, i'm thinking, I thought there already was a strike zone laid out in the rule book. This has happened more times then you would think.

[Jake Patterson]

Generally speaking, it's not appropriate.
40 seasons - never tossed....
I have asked politely where a pitch was so as to help my pitchers or hitters. BUT - There is a big difference between, "Where the hell was that?" versus "Was that up Blue?"

[jmart2663]

Here is one thing of many that umpires do that drive me crazy.

Pregame plate meeting. Umpire says look, my strike zone is one ball outside the black, 2 balls below the knees and one ball below the letters. Which, i'm thinking, I thought there already was a strike zone laid out in the rule book. This has happened more times then you would think.

I have heard the same type of thing many times. What I HATE to hear from an ump at the pre-game plate meeting is this-"I want'em swinging the bat I don't want a walk fest"

It really pisses me off that an umpire thinks it is his job to get a kid to swing a bat, it ISN'T. It is the umpires job to call the strike zone. It's my job as a coach to teach a kid the strike zone, how to swing, what type of pitch to look for, what pitches to lay off of etc, etc...! When did it become an umpires job to play for the defense anyway?

[wogdoggy]

I have heard the same type of thing many times. What I HATE to hear from an ump at the pre-game plate meeting is this-"I want'em swinging the bat I don't want a walk fest"

It really pisses me off that an umpire thinks it is his job to get a kid to swing a bat, it ISN'T. It is the umpires job to call the strike zone. It's my job as a coach to teach a kid the strike zone, how to swing, what type of pitch to look for, what pitches to lay off of etc, etc...! When did it become an umpires job to play for the defense anyway?

the WORST ump is the one who puts on a show and wants everyone in the crowd to know who he is...the best ump is the one you never know is there..there are plenty of umps who think the game is there for them..especially the younger ones

[ctandc]

40 seasons - never tossed....
I have asked politely where a pitch was so as to help my pitchers or hitters. BUT - There is a big difference between, "Where the hell was that?" versus "Was that up Blue?"

On that note...

My catcher quietly asked the Ump where a pitch was, after 3 pitches in a row that everyone (including the batter who had started to walk back to the dugout thinking he went down looking) thought were strikes. The Umpire didn't reply. The catcher asked again. No reply. He asked a third time and the Umpire took his mask off, and LOUDLY said "Son you catch the ball and I'll call balls and strikes." The catcher replied "Yes sir. Just making sure you knew there balls AND strikes."

I think the Ump would have tossed him if the batter, the parents behind the fence and the on deck batter hadn't starting giggling.

[MrUmpireSir]

Plate Meeting Agenda:

Introductions
Lineup from home team
Lineup from visitors
Groundrules from home team

That "other stuff" you folks have indicated some umpires raise is inappropriate. I honestly can't imagine my colleagues or I raising those issues.

Of course, some coaches also raise inappropriate subjects. I ejected a coach at the plate meeting for asking if I was "going to call it both ways this time."

Yeah, that was smart. Call the umpire a cheater at the plate meeting. Bye.

[Cannonball]

The caveat from MrUmpireSir is appreciated and so, I'll add that he following my strickly my opinion. I believe since this topic is addressed to "new coaches" it might also be applicable to new umps.

While MrUmpireSir might be correct in his assessment, you might want to also recognize that Umpires with quick triggers who eject coaches quickly and who will not develop some type of relationship with the coaches of any particular area will not get work at the high school level. Naturally, the topic is general and so, not specific to high school. However, in many states including Illinois, after ever game, each umpire is rated. Post season assignments are based upon those rankings. The IHSA in my state takes coach's evaluations very seriously. Furter, should you, as an Umpire, receive our lowest ranking, a letter has to be written by the Coach to the IHSA and so, that Umpire will find it very hard to get a post season assignment.

MrBaseballSir's presentation is, in a sense, a sterile presentation of the power of the ump. Naturally, at a local rec league or in travel ball you will have no other course of action and so, they are omnipotent. In high school ball, such is not the case and, as we all know, Umpires who demonstrate poor judgement, insecurity by becoming bigger than the game at hand etc. will be "black balled." That would begin by having a conference assigner notified and then a request made by an AD to not hire a given ump in conference play. Then, the phone tree will begin. It will be something to the effect of, "if you use Umpire X, we won't renew our contract. We're not playing any team that hires him." However, brutal this might sound, it is a fact. To be sure, any Umpire subjected to this would have demonstrated a "history." Coaches do talk!

Please note, this post is not intended to be confrontational but rather informative to those young Umpires that feel full of spit and vinegar and of whom take MrUmpireSir's post to heart and think ...

BTW - ejected once -- last summer by an umpire who demonstrated the traits MrUmpireSir suggest. First ejection if decades of coaching and at a travel ball tournament. Due to my reputation with the Umpires, no other Umpires would work with him the rest of the tournament. MrUmpireSir, you and I are never going to have a converstation louder than a polite tone. I deeply respect the Men in Blue!

[wogdoggy]

The caveat from MrUmpireSir is appreciated and so, I'll add that he following my strickly my opinion. I believe since this topic is addressed to "new coaches" it might also be applicable to new umps.

While MrUmpireSir might be correct in his assessment, you might want to also recognize that Umpires with quick triggers who eject coaches quickly and who will not develop some type of relationship with the coaches of any particular area will not get work at the high school level. Naturally, the topic is general and so, not specific to high school. However, in many states including Illinois, after ever game, each umpire is rated. Post season assignments are based upon those rankings. The IHSA in my state takes coach's evaluations very seriously. Furter, should you, as an Umpire, receive our lowest ranking, a letter has to be written by the Coach to the IHSA and so, that Umpire will find it very hard to get a post season assignment.

MrBaseballSir's presentation is, in a sense, a sterile presentation of the power of the ump. Naturally, at a local rec league or in travel ball you will have no other course of action and so, they are omnipotent. In high school ball, such is not the case and, as we all know, Umpires who demonstrate poor judgement, insecurity by becoming bigger than the game at hand etc. will be "black balled." That would begin by having a conference assigner notified and then a request made by an AD to not hire a given ump in conference play. Then, the phone tree will begin. It will be something to the effect of, "if you use Umpire X, we won't renew our contract. We're not playing any team that hires him." However, brutal this might sound, it is a fact. To be sure, any Umpire subjected to this would have demonstrated a "history." Coaches do talk!

Please note, this post is not intended to be confrontational but rather informative to those young Umpires that feel full of spit and vinegar and of whom take MrUmpireSir's post to heart and think ...

BTW - ejected once -- last summer by an umpire who demonstrated the traits MrUmpireSir suggest. First ejection if decades of coaching and at a travel ball tournament. Due to my reputation with the Umpires, no other Umpires would work with him the rest of the tournament. MrUmpireSir, you and I are never going to have a converstation louder than a polite tone. I deeply respect the Men in Blue!



lol,,so I guess you really can report a bad ump..lol

1 ejection in my life..our ss picked up the ball and took the mound in between innings,,the ump told him he had to pitch now..he never touched the rubber..he told me our ss had to pitch BUT i could bring back the original pitcher after the ss threw 1 pitch..oh really i said are you sure about that? he hemmed and hawed and i said with the other coach present..obviosly nobody here knows what the rules are and he booted me..my kids in the field were all laughing at me saying good bye coach and laughing and making fun,,this got the ump even more pee owed...the kids had a fun time stalling up the game and waving to me...

a typical young ump who thought HE was the show..

[MrUmpireSir]

While MrUmpireSir might be correct in his assessment, you might want to also recognize that Umpires with quick triggers who eject coaches quickly and who will not develop some type of relationship with the coaches of any particular area will not get work at the high school level.

Umpires with poor game management skills or poor judgement will not advance in their craft until they improve. True.

MrBaseballSir's [sic]presentation is, in a sense, a sterile presentation of the power of the ump.

It seems appropriate to start the conversation with what the rules actually say, as I am continually shocked by how little they are known or understood.

MrUmpireSir, you and I are never going to have a converstation louder than a polite tone. I deeply respect the Men in Blue!

There is an old umpire saying: "If two people are arguing on the field - don't be one of them!" I have never understood umpires who "argue" with coaches; what's the point?

[AgentX]

Naturally, at a local rec league or in travel ball you will have no other course of action and so, they are omnipotent.
That's not true.

We had one rec game this season that was umpired so horribly that the coaches on the team that beat us complained to the league administrators about him!

They weren't the first. He was done umpiring at our league after that.

I agree that the best umpires are the ones who don't call attention to themselves. If the game was well officiated, you shouldn't be able to remember what blue looked like afterwards, win or lose.

[MrUmpireSir]

The ump called 2 balls IN THE DIRT strikes and down went hot head on strikes. Our coach came out and made hot head go to the bench and talked to the ump about his "strike zone". I could hear the discussion, and it consisted of my coach telling the ump the last 2 pitches were in the dirt, and then him turning around and walking back.

I thought I'd throw the example out there as I don't see talking to an umpire about his "strike zone" as a completely black and white decision ...Your thoughts?

Well, "my thoughts" would be these: Some batters like to set up in the very back of the box, putting them three feet behind home plate. This is allowed under the rules.

But.

The strike zone does not move. So, the pitches you say were "in the dirt" may very well have been in the dirt at the batter's feet, but crossed the plate at his knees - in other words, they were strikes!

Now, obviously, I was not at your game and cannot say. Certainly, it is not my intention to sit here and defend every bad thing an umpire has ever done. But I can tell you, that I have had batters like this and the pitcher has very correctly and very smartly thrown breaking balls or curves that cross the plate at the knees then drop in the dirt at the batter's feet. What do you want us to do? Say those pitches aren't strikes when they are?

I'm just sayin.

[MrUmpireSir]

We had one rec game this season that was umpired so horribly that the coaches on the team that beat us complained to the league administrators about him!

They weren't the first. He was done umpiring at our league after that.

I agree that the best umpires are the ones who don't call attention to themselves. If the game was well officiated, you shouldn't be able to remember what blue looked like afterwards, win or lose.

Agent X: Two things -

First, complaining about an umpire to the appropriate body after a game is entirely appropriate. We are quite properly to be held accountable for our actions, just like everyone else. If someone has a problem with us, by all means, file a report. Certainly, that's what we do. It would not be appropriate to chase down the umpire in the parking lot after the game to "discuss" his calls!

Second, I am not so sure about the "invisible umpire" being the deciding factor in whether or not an umpire is "good." Sometimes, controversial or tough calls have to be made. They are not popular. When we make them, we always hear the expected catcalls from the peanut gallery ("It's not about you Blue! Nobody came here to watch the umpire show!" etc.)

A good umpire should not be a pothole looking for a truck, true, but he should also not shy away from picking up the dirty end of the stick when it is required to do so.

Here is a good example (http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=4736735). The catcher did not do his job properly, but the umpire did his. An easy force play was blown, but the call was not. Certainly, it would have been far easier for the "invisible" umpire to ring up an out at the plate, but the right call was more important.

Sometimes, we just have to suck it up and umpire and let the chips fall where they may.

[AgentX]

There's always half of the crowd that thinks a tough call is a good one.

The best umpires we've had are the ones with a quiet demeanor and bring no emotion to the field. This makes it easier for the other half of the crowd to handle the tough calls.

When a toddler falls down and hurts himself, he doesn't know if he should cry about it. At a certain age they look for clues in the adult. I think in a lot of ways blue is the only adult at the ballpark sometimes. ;)

[Cannonball]

That's not true.

We had one rec game this season that was umpired so horribly that the coaches on the team that beat us complained to the league administrators about him!

They weren't the first. He was done umpiring at our league after that.

I agree that the best umpires are the ones who don't call attention to themselves. If the game was well officiated, you shouldn't be able to remember what blue looked like afterwards, win or lose.


I was speaking in a reference from our local rec program and believe it is typical of most programs. Our local rec program hires young high school kids and beginning umps who must attend a training program and take the "test" for certification. After going through such a program, I believe most rec programs are not in a position to "get rid" of many of their umps. Again, just my opinion and to be sure my opinion and roughly $6 will get you an extra value meal at Micky D's.

MrUmpireSir, I appreciate that you took my post in the manner intended. The use of the phrase "sterile" was in aggreement with your assertion that you must first lay the groundwork for this discussion. Again, I appreciate you understanding my intent.

Tonight my daughter plays in a very important game. I already know who the Umpires are and do note that they deserve to be umpiring in the beginning phases of our state tournament. We call them "Regionals." Our Plate Umpire is a pillar of his community and is well known throughout our area. His partner the same. What I know will happen is that they will work together as a team. Everyone will be treated equally. They truly respect the game. BTW, my daughter was pitching a game earlier in the year where there were numerous errors in an inning. She was beginning to tear up some. One of these fine gentlemen called time out and went out to "check out the hole" in front of the pitcher's mound. He turned around and went back to the plate after a moment or two. Everyone knew why he really did it. Empathy in not a requirement for umpiring but the human element was appreciated. My dd got composed and finished the game. It was her first high school loss.

[AgentX]

I was speaking in a reference from our local rec program and believe it is typical of most programs. Our local rec program hires young high school kids and beginning umps who must attend a training program and take the "test" for certification. After going through such a program, I believe most rec programs are not in a position to "get rid" of many of their umps. Again, just my opinion and to be sure my opinion and roughly $6 will get you an extra value meal at Micky D's

There is definitely a premium on umpires, so the league does not bar them lightly.

Our paid umps handle Majors on up. Minors umps are "volunteered" from the ranks of other Minors coaches, a practice which I cannot commend more. It increases knowledge of the rules and promotes a greater appreciation for other teams and for the job of umpire itself. It is invaluable training for managers moving up to the Majors.

[Trickyhop]

Well, "my thoughts" would be these: Some batters like to set up in the very back of the box, putting them three feet behind home plate. This is allowed under the rules.

But.

The strike zone does not move. So, the pitches you say were "in the dirt" may very well have been in the dirt at the batter's feet, but crossed the plate at his knees - in other words, they were strikes!

Now, obviously, I was not at your game and cannot say. Certainly, it is not my intention to sit here and defend every bad thing an umpire has ever done. But I can tell you, that I have had batters like this and the pitcher has very correctly and very smartly thrown breaking balls or curves that cross the plate at the knees then drop in the dirt at the batter's feet. What do you want us to do? Say those pitches aren't strikes when they are?

I'm just sayin.

I understand.

Of course you can't defend every umpire and I don't expect you to, thanks for the resposne. Just for the record, the pitches were both fastballs clearly in the dirt and way too low for anyones good. What was worse was that I was in the hole and had no idea what this ump was going to call strikes or balls. I tend to work the count, so it had me nervous and changed the game for me quite a bit. I know about sitting back in the zone and balls crossing the plate while breaking into the dirt at the last minute, this just wasn't one of those cases. This kid couldn't pitch, and fortunately the ump didn't call anymore strikes like that.

My main point to the post is that as umpires, you are not there to judge coaches characters based on baseball game rules. The rules are there to keep the game going with some sort of fairness involved. Sometimes it is appropriate for a coach to talk to an umpire about balls and strikes depending on the situation, and may be beneficial for the dugout watching.

I like a lot of what you have said throughout this thread, thanks blue!

[MrUmpireSir]

My main point to the post is that as umpires, you are not there to judge coaches characters....

We do not judge characters or people. We judge behaviours.

Sometimes it is appropriate for a coach to talk to an umpire about balls and strikes depending on the situation, and may be beneficial for the dugout watching.

I would respectfully disagree. Such a conversation has very little upside. For anyone.

[Trickyhop]

I agree that the best umpires are the ones who don't call attention to themselves. If the game was well officiated, you shouldn't be able to remember what blue looked like afterwards, win or lose.

I played NABA league for a year and we had an ump who'd walk over to our dugout in between innings and talk to us. Real friendly like, and I enjoyed it. He had a great strike call as well. I enjoyed watching him.

He blew a few calls in the other teams favor though.:ughh

Haha.

[Trickyhop]

I would respectfully disagree. Such a conversation has very little upside. For anyone.


Obviously, for the situation I presented, it had tremendous upside. ;)

[Digger]

I have never been ejected. However, two weeks ago, for the first time ever I was warned about arguing balls and strikes from an over sensitive umpire with a chip on his shoulder. The game was one of those meaningless pool games.

I was coaching first base. The umpire was calling the pitch at the knees, and in one case slighty below the knees on one batter who was up towards the front of the box (slower pitcher). Our team was in the 3rd base dugout. When it was our turn to bat in the 3rd inning, I walk outside the dugout and start towards 1st base. I turn around and tell my girls that the umpire has a low strike zone and to make sure they make an adjustment.

The home plate umpire comes over to me and gives me a warning for arguing balls and strikes. I told him that I was not arguing balls and strikes, that it was in between innings and all I was doing was coaching my girls to make an adjustment to the stike zone and to go to the plate with a plan. He didn't want to hear it. He just ranted on about how I had been warned.

From now on I'm going to go inside the dugout and quietly huttle the girls when discussing making adjustments to pitches. I don't want to take the chance on a home plate umpire taking a legitimate effort to coach 12 year olds on hitting strategy and turn it into a warning about calling balls and strikes.

In my experience, 99% of the umpires do a fine job. Which means the bad ones really stand out.

[dolphindan1]

I got tossed for the 1st time ever this year...1st i am the baseball director for our local league but I also head coach a CP team and help, 3rd coach with a Dixie Youth 11-12 team...anyway...my son was pitching, well he threw a pitch and the batter swung and the ump called a ball...I jumped up and said wait a minute the batter swung at it....he said I kis you not, "I didnt see it"...I said back "Well I think its kinda important that the plate umpire see what the batter does"...He said " thats your warning"...I said back "Well I am warning you"...He tossed me right there...I wasnt yelling or anything....I wasnt even out near him...it was funny...well whats funnier I guess he was worried about tossing the director cause we were losing by 4 and when we came up to bat, home team, the pitcher walked every batter till we won....its was sad the other coach come un-glued....I didnt blame...well that umpire hasnt been back but not cause of me...

[dolphindan1]

I as director and coach think that a coach should be allowed within reason to question some things without fear of ejection...Umps are getting paid...coaches are volunteer...I believe the ump has final say so but a coach should be able in defense of his team be able to question some stuff...A good ump will let a coach vent within reason....

[wilson68]

He looked confused. Then replied "I won't argue a judgment call."

I then replied "Not knowing that home plate is in fair territory isn't a judgment call."

He ran me.

In our rec league, we have different rules, depending upon age group, and many of our umpires have difficulty remembering which division they are umpiring. And many of them have trouble remembering the rules, period.

One year they must have had a clinic, or a memo, because I kept getting the same response. The umpire would make a call, screw up the rule and, when I questioned them, they would hem and haw for a minute or two, suddenly their face would light up and they would say, "Well, in my judgement (insert bullsh*t here.)" Invariably, they would restate what had happened. In your example, the ball would suddenly have hit the batter.

In one two week period, the last two weeks of the season, including our league championship game, I had two of our senior umpires make the following rule interpretations. Runners were restricted to advancing one base on a ball overthrown into the outfield (ball still in play, that's one of those younger rules that we didn't use in the division we were in.) A pitcher was told she couldn't slide her foot across the pitcher's plate as the first move in her pitch, al la Lisa Fernandez (not even my pitcher, but I asked anyway, between innings). The hand's were part of the bat. I was offered the choice between a strike or a ball on a catcher interfering with my batter's swing. The umpire stopped the game and treated us to a verbal dissertation on how runners would be called out if they ran from third to home in fair territory.

The parents all really like him because he explains the rules to the young players. I like him too, personally, but I wish he would get his explanations correct because 30 players and 60 parents go home believing want he said is true.

I like a good umpire. I have umpired enough, and had enough training, to appreciate their mechanics and their trials on the field. I have watched games where the umpire has made several tough calls on close plays and have received a lot of abuse despite making the correct call in each case, in my judgement, and I enjoyed their performance as much as the game. I am on their side, but some don't have a lot of commitment to getting it right. And, sometimes, the coach is an ass.

[coach scotty]

I have never understood why coaches get ejected. Its pretty easy to let an ump know you think he is an idiot without getting tossed. :happy:

[Ursa Major]

Well, "my thoughts" would be these: Some batters like to set up in the very back of the box, putting them three feet behind home plate. This is allowed under the rules.

But.

The strike zone does not move. So, the pitches you say were "in the dirt" may very well have been in the dirt at the batter's feet, but crossed the plate at his knees - in other words, they were strikes!

Now, obviously, I was not at your game and cannot say. Certainly, it is not my intention to sit here and defend every bad thing an umpire has ever done. But I can tell you, that I have had batters like this and the pitcher has very correctly and very smartly thrown breaking balls or curves that cross the plate at the knees then drop in the dirt at the batter's feet. What do you want us to do? Say those pitches aren't strikes when they are?

I'm just sayin.MrUmp, I'm one of those Dads/coaches with the 60 FPS cameras who records at least one at-bat every game for every one of our kids, so I can see get a "snapshot" of the status of their swings. I've videotaped tens of thousands of pitches over the years. And you know what? You're right.

Many folks think that pitches that hit the dirt are automatically ball. But, a 12-6 curve (or a slow 9 year old pitch) can drop several feet over the course of five feet. If the batter's in the back of the box or the catcher likes to set up deep, a lot of strikes will bounce. And, some bad catchers will take the ball out of the zone, and do it so quickly that you're fooled sitting in the stands, while the umpire usuall isn't because he's made his mind up the instant the ball crosses the plate.

The other call that fans and coaches miss is the kid who ducks in the course of his check swing or just out of habit, and then tries to argue that a pitch was really shoulder high. About 9 times out of 10, when I play back the video and affix an armpit-height spot in the background as the top of the hitter strike zone, those pitches which seem to be too high were in the original strike zone but the hitter's ducking made it appear otherwise.

Digger said: "The umpire was calling the pitch at the knees, and in one case slighty below the knees on one batter who was up towards the front of the box (slower pitcher). Our team was in the 3rd base dugout. When it was our turn to bat in the 3rd inning, I walk outside the dugout and start towards 1st base. I turn around and tell my girls that the umpire has a low strike zone and to make sure they make an adjustment.Digger, read what the man said. Ahhh, yess, the old "I was just loudly telling my team [[and everyone else within earshot]] what the strike zone was today [[and it bears no relation to any strike zone called by any umpire who wasn't carrying a white cane]]." (Subtext is in brackets.) You're still disrespecting the umpire publicly. What's the legitimate point of giving this valuable advice to the whole world? Tell your kids in private.

I think the best way to "argue" balls and strikes is, if the strike zone is too tight, is to have your catcher simply ask once in awhile, "Where did that miss?" (Some umps won't tell you.) If the ump replies, just say quietly, "Okay, I'll remember that." (No sarcasm.) This lets the ump know that your team is expecting equal treatment. If the strike zone is too big, the best thing is to wait for your pitcher or catcher to come up, and have them say, "Oh, so that nicked the outside corner?" and, when the umpire affirms that, give the same, "I'll remember that" reply. But use it sparingly.

[dolphindan1]

I know a coach for an 11u travel team that has a play for a bad umpire, or for what they deem bad...they call a High fastball and the catcher misses on purpose....I dont condone it nor do I teach my 12u team this tactic...every umpire is different some like to call higher strikes, some like lower, some give corners some do not...the key is to figure out what they like and tell your hitters and pitchers....and as long as the ump is consistent both ways I dont care....I hate low strike zones knees or lower...it kinda takes the bat out of the hitters hands...

[marklaker]

....I hate low strike zones knees or lower...it kinda takes the bat out of the hitters hands...

Conversely.....I hate when an umpire won't give you the knees because it diminishes the pitcher's arsenal.....but then my son is a pitcher.....it's all about perspective, isn't it......:happy:

[MrUmpireSir]

From now on I'm going to go inside the dugout and quietly huttle the girls when discussing making adjustments to pitches. I don't want to take the chance on a home plate umpire taking a legitimate effort to coach 12 year olds on hitting strategy and turn it into a warning about calling balls and strikes.

You're learrning! There was no reason to wait until you were out of the dugout to speak to your team about the strikezone, unless you wanted the umpire to hear it too.

I'll say it one more time: if it's said loud enough for us to hear it, we will treat it exactly the same as if you said it to us. So be sure it's nothing that could be, um, misunderstood.

[MrUmpireSir]

well he threw a pitch and the batter swung and the ump called a ball

So? Ask for an appeal to the base umpire. Baseball has rules. Use them.

I said back "Well I think its kinda important that the plate umpire see what the batter does"...He said " thats your warning"...I said back "Well I am warning you"...He tossed me right there...

And rightly so. Surely, you knew this would happen.

[wogdoggy]

I know a coach for an 11u travel team that has a play for a bad umpire, or for what they deem bad...they call a High fastball and the catcher misses on purpose....I dont condone it nor do I teach my 12u team this tactic...every umpire is different some like to call higher strikes, some like lower, some give corners some do not...the key is to figure out what they like and tell your hitters and pitchers....and as long as the ump is consistent both ways I dont care....I hate low strike zones knees or lower...it kinda takes the bat out of the hitters hands...



BOGUS ,,,at any age,,its only a game

[MrUmpireSir]

In one two week period, the last two weeks of the season, including our league championship game, I had two of our senior umpires make the following rule interpretations. Runners were restricted to advancing one base on a ball overthrown into the outfield (ball still in play, that's one of those younger rules that we didn't use in the division we were in.) A pitcher was told she couldn't slide her foot across the pitcher's plate as the first move in her pitch, al la Lisa Fernandez (not even my pitcher, but I asked anyway, between innings). The hand's were part of the bat. I was offered the choice between a strike or a ball on a catcher interfering with my batter's swing. The umpire stopped the game and treated us to a verbal dissertation on how runners would be called out if they ran from third to home in fair territory.

I think it's time your local Association ponied up some cash for quality umpire development. You want good umpires? Train them.

[MrUmpireSir]

I know a coach for an 11u travel team that has a play for a bad umpire, or for what they deem bad...they call a High fastball and the catcher misses on purpose

Then the umpire should immediately dump the battery and you. I, too, have been drilled on purpose and this is the appropriate response.

[Digger]

Digger, read what the man said. Ahhh, yess, the old "I was just loudly telling my team [[and everyone else within earshot]] what the strike zone was today [[and it bears no relation to any strike zone called by any umpire who wasn't carrying a white cane]]." (Subtext is in brackets.) You're still disrespecting the umpire publicly. What's the legitimate point of giving this valuable advice to the whole world? Tell your kids in private.

I read what the man said. I was not disrepsecting the umpire. The thought of sending an indirect message to the umpire by telling my girls to make an adjustment to a low strike zone hadn't even crossed my mine. The fact that the umpire took it that way speaks volumes about his attitude before he came to the park.

When I coach, my attitude is that the strike zone is whatever the umpire says it is. As long as he's consistent, which in this case he was, then I just accept it and tell our hitters to make sure they make an adjustment.

I did a similar thing in a game in the previous tournament. The umpire was calling the outside corner and the opposing pitcher was consistently pounding that spot. The 1st two innings we had several called 3rd strikes and no runs. I told the girls to go to the plate looking for the outside pitch, and when they see it just swing normal and go with the pitch. We knocked the pitcher out of the game in two innings.

My point is that adjusting to an umpires strike zone is a part of the game. Umpires need to realize that coaches and hitters have to deal with varying strike zones from one umpire to the next.

And...yes...next time I will make sure I'm out of the umpires hearing range so he doesn't get his feelings hurt.

To all you umpires out there, when a coach says that you have a low or high strike zone, they are not saying or implying you have a bad strike zone.

[songtitle]

Digger, saying that in earshot of the umpire is a nono.

[Drill]

Generally speaking, it's not appropriate. Coaches at the lower levels seem to like to do this at plate meetings though. We usually do not answer, which is just as well, because we'd probably say something like "Over the plate, if the meds have kicked in" ;)

Seriously though, experienced catchers know how to quietly ask "Where was that one?" on one or two pitches to get an idea if their pitcher was high or inside, etc.


I think I read somewhere its ok to ask rule questions.

I guess I should than ask a rules question without insulting the ump. By asking what does the rule book say about where the strike zone is.




respectfully yours,

drill

[MrUmpireSir]

I think I read somewhere its ok to ask rule questions.

I guess I should than ask a rules question without insulting the ump. By asking what does the rule book say about where the strike zone is.

The Plate Meeting is usually not an appropriate place or time for a general rules discussion, beyond ground rules.

Since you have asked, though, here's the rule:

Rule 2.00: The STRIKE ZONE is that area over home plate the upper limit of which is a horizontal line at the midpoint between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants, and the lower level is a line at the hollow beneath the kneecap. The Strike Zone shall be determined from the batter’s stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball.

[dolphindan1]

Then the umpire should immediately dump the battery and you. I, too, have been drilled on purpose and this is the appropriate response.

I dont do it...I said I knew a coach that does it...and how would a ump know really....if the catcher makes a half hearted attempt to catch and misses how would a ump really know it was meant for him...

[Ursa Major]

I dont do it...I said I knew a coach that does it...and how would a ump know really....if the catcher makes a half hearted attempt to catch and misses how would a ump really know it was meant for him...Well, if you know a coach who does that as a tactic, the umpires probably pass around the same bit of information. So, if that coach/manager has griped about a high strike call and one inning later the catcher for the first time let an easy pitch go by untouched, an umpire doesn't have to "really" know, just like he doesn't really know that the pitch behind a batter's head during a beanball war was intended to be so. If it quacks like a duck, toss him. (To mix metaphors . . .)

[MrUmpireSir]

Well, if you know a coach who does that as a tactic, the umpires probably pass around the same bit of information. So, if that coach/manager has griped about a high strike call and one inning later the catcher for the first time let an easy pitch go by untouched, an umpire doesn't have to "really" know, just like he doesn't really know that the pitch behind a batter's head during a beanball war was intended to be so. If it quacks like a duck, toss him. (To mix metaphors . . .)

Big Dipper is correct. Again.

[jofus]

Well, "my thoughts" would be these: Some batters like to set up in the very back of the box, putting them three feet behind home plate. This is allowed under the rules.

But.

The strike zone does not move. So, the pitches you say were "in the dirt" may very well have been in the dirt at the batter's feet, but crossed the plate at his knees - in other words, they were strikes!


I was umping a little league softball game a couple weeks ago, 9-12 year olds.
I swear, a couple girls on one team was way south of 4 feet tall. So, their little skinny knees are what, 8 inches off the ground? I think you could have rolled a softball across the plate and came close to catching her knees.

Combine that with a pitcher that was pitching in the high 30's/low 40's, and a 10 year old catcher that was set up about 5 feet behind home plate (I kept gently moving her up, she kept gently moving me back), and guess what you get? Me calling strikes on balls that hitting the dirt in front of the catcher, with a bunch of parents that know nothing about softball, never have, and will never, umped a game in their life, pointing out to me "that couldn't be a strike, it hit the dirt".

On a side note, I thought Tom Hanks had a good method for getting tossed in "A League of Their Own", when he commented on what the umpire looked like with his "little hat on" :)

[Mark H]

The caveat from MrUmpireSir is appreciated and so, I'll add that he following my strickly my opinion. I believe since this topic is addressed to "new coaches" it might also be applicable to new umps.

While MrUmpireSir might be correct in his assessment, you might want to also recognize that Umpires with quick triggers who eject coaches quickly and who will not develop some type of relationship with the coaches of any particular area will not get work at the high school level. Naturally, the topic is general and so, not specific to high school. However, in many states including Illinois, after ever game, each umpire is rated. Post season assignments are based upon those rankings. The IHSA in my state takes coach's evaluations very seriously. Furter, should you, as an Umpire, receive our lowest ranking, a letter has to be written by the Coach to the IHSA and so, that Umpire will find it very hard to get a post season assignment.

MrBaseballSir's presentation is, in a sense, a sterile presentation of the power of the ump. Naturally, at a local rec league or in travel ball you will have no other course of action and so, they are omnipotent. In high school ball, such is not the case and, as we all know, Umpires who demonstrate poor judgement, insecurity by becoming bigger than the game at hand etc. will be "black balled." That would begin by having a conference assigner notified and then a request made by an AD to not hire a given ump in conference play. Then, the phone tree will begin. It will be something to the effect of, "if you use Umpire X, we won't renew our contract. We're not playing any team that hires him." However, brutal this might sound, it is a fact. To be sure, any Umpire subjected to this would have demonstrated a "history." Coaches do talk!

Please note, this post is not intended to be confrontational but rather informative to those young Umpires that feel full of spit and vinegar and of whom take MrUmpireSir's post to heart and think ...

BTW - ejected once -- last summer by an umpire who demonstrated the traits MrUmpireSir suggest. First ejection if decades of coaching and at a travel ball tournament. Due to my reputation with the Umpires, no other Umpires would work with him the rest of the tournament. MrUmpireSir, you and I are never going to have a converstation louder than a polite tone. I deeply respect the Men in Blue!


That all sounds right to me. Point I would add is, those ratings won't be so hot if he calls some of the things in the book that people aren't used to being called in terms of the zone and the like.

[Ursa Major]

One of the best measures to keep coaches and parents in line is to do what our league does -- hire only youth umpires, almost exclusively from the ranks of our own players and alums. There's nothing like seeing a parent or coach gripe at your own kid when he's umpiring to make you take another look at your own behavior.

And our league president now has all three of her sons as current league umpires -- she permits no harassment of the umpires, you can be sure. With one exception... Her oldest used to be a poor umpire but has improved enough to be adequate. Her middle son is just one of those kids who can't stay focused enough to have a consistent strike zone. Earlier this year, he was apparently in a hurry to end the game, and with two outs in the last inning, he called a pitch easily a foot outside, "Strike Three!" President/Mom was standing by (as she was there to pick him up), and yelled back, "That was NOT!" It got quite the laugh on both sides of the field, even from the team on the hind end of the call. (Question -- I wonder if he tossed her?)

[scorekeeper]

…I agree that the best umpires are the ones who don't call attention to themselves. If the game was well officiated, you shouldn't be able to remember what blue looked like afterwards, win or lose.

I said this in another thread, but feel as though it needs repeated here because of the title of the thread.

If the game was well coached, you shouldn’t be able to remember what the umpire, the scorekeeper, the fans, or the coach looked like! The game isn’t about any of them.:twocents: