A few questions on Base Hit

[wanrex]

I just revisited the definition of Base Hits (quoted below)

--- Quote Start ---
Rule 10.05(b) 1-3
The official scorer shall not credit a base hit when a:
(1) runner is forced out by a batted ball, or would have been forced out except for a fielding error;
(2) batter apparently hits safely and a runner who is forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner fails to touch the first base to which such runner is advancing and is called out on appeal. The official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat but no hit;
(3) pitcher, the catcher or any infielder handles a batted ball and puts out a preceding runner who is attempting to advance one base or to return to his original base, or would have put out such runner with ordinary effort except for a fielding error. The official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat but no hit;
--- Quote End ---

Would someone double confirm my understanding:
Regardless on 10.05 (b) 1
1. The keyword "forced out", indicate that under "force play" situation, fielder touch the base to perform an out.
So under "force play" situation, if the fielder "tag" the runner, it does NOT consider as "forced out", right?

2a. 0 or 1 out, runner on 2B, batter hit a grounder to left field, batter sure safe on 1B, left fielder throw to 3rd and out the runner, so it should consider as a " Hit" and "7-5 tag out", right?

2b. Continue from above, if the situation changed to runner on 1B & 2B, left fielder throw to 3B and force out the 2B runner, so it should consider as "Fielder Choice" and "7-5 forced out", right?

2c. Continue from above, same situation, but left fielder throw to 3rd baseman and "tag" out the 2B runner, so it should consider as "Hit" and "7-5 forced out", right?

Million thanks for that! :happy:

[scorekeeper]

I just revisited the definition of Base Hits (quoted below)

--- Quote Start ---
Rule 10.05(b) 1-3
The official scorer shall not credit a base hit when a:
(1) runner is forced out by a batted ball, or would have been forced out except for a fielding error;
(2) batter apparently hits safely and a runner who is forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner fails to touch the first base to which such runner is advancing and is called out on appeal. The official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat but no hit;
(3) pitcher, the catcher or any infielder handles a batted ball and puts out a preceding runner who is attempting to advance one base or to return to his original base, or would have put out such runner with ordinary effort except for a fielding error. The official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat but no hit;
--- Quote End ---

[QUOTE]Would someone double confirm my understanding:
Regardless on 10.05 (b) 1
1. The keyword "forced out", indicate that under "force play" situation, fielder touch the base to perform an out.
So under "force play" situation, if the fielder "tag" the runner, it does NOT consider as "forced out", right?

I’m not quite sure of the context you’re asking the question. This rule is intended to be used for things such as: With runner on 1st, batter hits line drive to center field that is played on 1st hop by F8. F8 throws to F4 who touched 2nd base before R1 reaches it safely. But it makes no difference if F4 touches the base or tags the runner prior to his reaching the base. The batter still gets no credit for a base hit. Its scored as reaching 1st on a Fielder’s Choice.

If you’re trying to look at it a different way, please explain.

2a. 0 or 1 out, runner on 2B, batter hit a grounder to left field, batter sure safe on 1B, left fielder throw to 3rd and out the runner, so it should consider as a " Hit" and "7-5 tag out", right?

Yes.

2b. Continue from above, if the situation changed to runner on 1B & 2B, left fielder throw to 3B and force out the 2B runner, so it should consider as "Fielder Choice" and "7-5 forced out", right?

Yes.

2c. Continue from above, same situation, but left fielder throw to 3rd baseman and "tag" out the 2B runner, so it should consider as "Hit" and "7-5 forced out", right?

Yes.

But I still don’t get the context of the original question or what follows. You seem to understand the scoring/not scoring of a hit in that situation, so why the question? Has some parent gotten in your face saying you screwed his kid out of a stupid single?

If that’s the deal, show him OBR - 2.00 Force Play. The whole play has to be taken in the proper context.

[davewashere]

I'm a little confused about what you're asking for in 2c. Are you saying the situation continued from above in 2a (runner on 2nd) or the situation in 2b (runners on 1st and 2nd)? I think you are saying there are runners on 1st and 2nd, otherwise it would be the exact same play as 2a. If there are runners on 1st and 2nd and the left fielder makes the out at 3rd base it's a fielders choice, 7-5 whether the third baseman tags the runner or the base first. Any time a runner is forced to advance a base and he is tagged out or forced out by touching the base before he can advance, the batter is not credited with a hit. This is true regardless of where the batter hits the ball.

Where the fielder's choice/hit ruling can get confusing is on plays when the runner is not forced to advance. Let's say there's only a runner on 2nd, and the batter hits a grounder to the shortstop. The shortstop decides to tag the runner who is advancing to third (at his own peril, remember that he is not being forced to advance) instead of getting the force out at 1st base. As the force out at 1st would have been expected had the shortstop not gone for the runner instead, the scorer will rule that a fielder's choice.

[mightylakers]

OK, now that we are with this topic. Here's what happened about 2 weeks ago.

Runner on second, my son hit a ball down along the third base line, the third baseman stopped the ball, seeing runner on second is far enough from second base so he threw the ball to second but the runner got back in time and safe.

How would you score this? Fielder choice or an infield hit?

I would've been a tough play at the first as my son can fly. I told him it's not a hit and he just kept on saying he will beat the throw. I already put that in rest now. Just want to know how exactly will this be ruled.

[wanrex]

Thanks for the reply, the main reason I created this thread is to clarify:

1. The definition of "forced out" at 10.05(b) pt 1.
I do confused between "forced play" and "forced out", in my understanding,
"forced play" is talking about the situation, u can either tag/force out a runner
"forced out" is the actual result, u force out a runner (under force play situation of course).

There is slight difference like that:
a. 0 or 1 out, runner on 1B and 2B, groundball to shortstop, the fielder want to tag out the 2B runner, finally batter safe on 1B, I think this should consider as "Infield hit + 6 tagged, as we should give advantage to what 2B runner did (usually he will try to run away and waste the fielder time)

b. If shortstop throw to 3rd and force out the 2B runner, and batter save on 1B, then this one must be "fielder choice + 6-5 forced out).
Do u agree with that?

2. For scorer, before you judge a "hit" or "fielder choice", you need to also consider the force/tag play situation.

For the case of "mightylakers", for me I will judge like that:
For the moment the 3rd baseman catch the grounder,
1. If he throw 1B directly, will the batter out?
If no, it is for sure an infield hit, if yes, continue below
2. Now he want to avoid 2B runner get advance,
if he throw 2B, then if criteria 1 is "yes", it is a fielder choice
if he throw 1B and saved, then it is for sure an "infield hit"

Agree?

[bluezebra]

OK, now that we are with this topic. Here's what happened about 2 weeks ago.

Runner on second, my son hit a ball down along the third base line, the third baseman stopped the ball, seeing runner on second is far enough from second base so he threw the ball to second but the runner got back in time and safe.

How would you score this? Fielder choice or an infield hit?

I would've been a tough play at the first as my son can fly. I told him it's not a hit and he just kept on saying he will beat the throw. I already put that in rest now. Just want to know how exactly will this be ruled.

If, in the opinion of the Official Scorer, the BR would have beat the throw to 1B, it should be ruled as a base hit, even though F5 attempted to get another runner and failed. If the out were made, it's a fielder's choice.

Bob

[davewashere]

Thanks for the reply, the main reason I created this thread is to clarify:

1. The definition of "forced out" at 10.05(b) pt 1.
I do confused between "forced play" and "forced out", in my understanding,
"forced play" is talking about the situation, u can either tag/force out a runner
"forced out" is the actual result, u force out a runner (under force play situation of course).

There is slight difference like that:
a. 0 or 1 out, runner on 1B and 2B, groundball to shortstop, the fielder want to tag out the 2B runner, finally batter safe on 1B, I think this should consider as "Infield hit + 6 tagged, as we should give advantage to what 2B runner did (usually he will try to run away and waste the fielder time)

b. If shortstop throw to 3rd and force out the 2B runner, and batter save on 1B, then this one must be "fielder choice + 6-5 forced out).
Do u agree with that?

2. For scorer, before you judge a "hit" or "fielder choice", you need to also consider the force/tag play situation.

For the case of "mightylakers", for me I will judge like that:
For the moment the 3rd baseman catch the grounder,
1. If he throw 1B directly, will the batter out?
If no, it is for sure an infield hit, if yes, continue below
2. Now he want to avoid 2B runner get advance,
if he throw 2B, then if criteria 1 is "yes", it is a fielder choice
if he throw 1B and saved, then it is for sure an "infield hit"

Agree?

Let's look at the situation I put in bold. If that ball is hit right to the shortstop and he fields it cleanly, I don't see a situation where the batter can get credited with a hit (assuming a clean throw to 1st base would beat the hitter easily). If the shortstop tries to get the runner on 2nd out out instead of throwing to 1st, it's a fielder's choice, whether he succeeds in tagging the runner out or not.

[wanrex]

Let's look at the situation I put in bold. If that ball is hit right to the shortstop and he fields it cleanly, I don't see a situation where the batter can get credited with a hit (assuming a clean throw to 1st base would beat the hitter easily). If the shortstop tries to get the runner on 2nd out out instead of throwing to 1st, it's a fielder's choice, whether he succeeds in tagging the runner out or not.

Thanks for all replied, finally i cleared my mind, davewashere is right, it should be a fielder choice.

All my question was caused by the doubt on that "forced out" vs "force play situation but tagged out", now I understand that in considering "hit", at 10.05 (b) pt. 1, forced out can simply consider as force play situation, as fielder have the choice to either throw to the base to force out or tag out the runner. Thanks again for all reply.:bowdown:



-- Reference: 10.05 (b) pt. 1 ---
1. The keyword "forced out", indicate that under "force play" situation, fielder touch the base to perform an out.
So under "force play" situation, if the fielder "tag" the runner, it does NOT consider as "forced out", right?

[scorekeeper]

Thanks for all replied, finally i cleared my mind, davewashere is right, it should be a fielder choice.

All my question was caused by the doubt on that "forced out" vs "force play situation but tagged out", now I understand that in considering "hit", at 10.05 (b) pt. 1, forced out can simply consider as force play situation, as fielder have the choice to either throw to the base to force out or tag out the runner. Thanks again for all reply.

Yes!

If a runner is forced off his base, whether the next base he can reach is tagged, or if the runner is tagged before he reaches that base, he was still “forced” off the base.