Groundball Technique?

[3and0]

Anyone here have a link to a good video demonstrating the right technique for fielding grounders? Recently I heard someone mention I "vacuum" the ball into my chest too much and I am not really sure what they meant by that and what it SHOULD look like. I do watch for it on mlb games but usually they don't show replays of any routine plays.

[Mark H]

The Mets organization taught a friend of mine, back in the day, to field out front, break his hands out front and get rid of the ball. Said the draw it into your chest thing took unnecessary time.

[3and0]

I see. Well I have a video from about a month ago, and most of the ones I suck into my chest a lot are ****** hops. Is there too much of the pulling in?http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e214/superhockey/th_P1010722.jpg (http://s40.photobucket.com/albums/e214/superhockey/?action=view&current=P1010722.flv)

[CoachW]

The WhiteSox Academy does a great job in my opinion of showing the correct way of fielding a ground ball. Just go to you tube and put in Chicago WhiteSox Academy.

Funneling the ball into your body is not the correct way IMO. Field out front and scoop the ball with your glove side hand using the wrist. Keep the fielding elbow off your body. so many kids funnel to the body and the elbow makes their hands hard.

CoachW

[songtitle]

It's not that complicated. Just take the glove and ball up toward your throwing shoulder or ear. While you are bringing it up, find the cross seam, so you always throw a 4 seam fastball with 2 fingers and your thumb.

Also, don't actually put your hand in the glove as you first touch the ball, just hold it next to the glove in a 'stop' position. Put your hand in as you bring the glove up.

[BallCoach06]

As with turning DP's, I teach a "deflection" technique with my infielders for routine groundballs (not talking about forehands/backhands).

I want that ball fielded/deflected into the throwing hand as quickly as possible from the fielding position. The longer it is in the glove, the more problems arise IMO. A few of the most common issues I have found are not being able to get the ball out of the glove cleanly, getting the ball/glove trapped on the right hip as the player transitions to throw, and the higher the ball/glove comes up, the more steps it will take to throw the ball across the diamond with velocity.

I teach my infielders to get the ball in the throwing hand as quickly as possible and up and thrown in one hard shuffle. However, based on the speed of the runner they may not have time for the shuffle, which makes it even more important to get that ball into the throwing hand quickly.

[Ursa Major]

My first reaction is to note that you're too static -- you stand there and wait for the ball to come to you, then move your feet. And a couple of other thoughts come to mind, and then I'd just be adding to the overall cacaphony of cues and tips.

For a comprehensive system of fielding grounders, go to www.specializedbaseballcamps.com and look at the trailer for their infielding video. If what they're having the kids do makes sense to you, you might want to consider buying the whole video. It's really very well put together, and doesn't take long to view.

[halfguard]

ursa, that dvd looks very interesting. i might pick it up. im curious as to why is says the latin difference. i have the jack legget series and that is pretty good.

[3and0]

My first reaction is to note that you're too static -- you stand there and wait for the ball to come to you, then move your feet. And a couple of other thoughts come to mind, and then I'd just be adding to the overall cacaphony of cues and tips.

For a comprehensive system of fielding grounders, go to www.specializedbaseballcamps.com and look at the trailer for their infielding video. If what they're having the kids do makes sense to you, you might want to consider buying the whole video. It's really very well put together, and doesn't take long to view.

I had realized your first cue before hand but it's tough to really move into the ball since I'm throwing against a cement pad 5 feet away leaning against a doghouse. I'd be interested to hear the other cues you have to say as well.

[scorekeeper]

... While you are bringing it up, find the cross seam, so you always throw a 4 seam fastball with 2 fingers and your thumb. ...

Well, I too used to believe that finding the cross-seam was important in fielding grounders. That is, until I had Fernando Vina laugh at me in front of an entire HSV baseball team for saying it.

It isn’t that that wouldn’t be the best thing to do, given the fielder had the time, and planned on throwing the ball perfectly overhanded. But as it was explained to me, fielders don’t have often have the luxury of a lot of time to make all those adjustments. More often they have to make a throw very quickly, and it might be a submarine, side arm, or back flip throw, from some pretty crazy off balanced positions.

[TL_Dad]

I think I got this photo from this site.

[scorekeeper]

His HS coach is the guy I score for.

[Ursa Major]

ursa, that dvd looks very interesting. i might pick it up. im curious as to why is says the latin difference. i have the jack legget series and that is pretty good.I have no idea why it says "The Latin difference", as everyone on the video is as white as I am -- and I'm of Swedish and German extraction.

What I like about the video is that it's no-nonsense - it gets to the point and moves on. "Ground ball to your right that you can easily get to? Do this -- and here are three guys doing it - an 8 year old, an 11 year old and a 13 year old. [Clip/clip/clip]. Ground ball to your right that you can barely get to? Do this -- and here are three guys doing it. [Clip/clip/clip.]"

[Ursa Major]

I had realized your first cue before hand but it's tough to really move into the ball since I'm throwing against a cement pad 5 feet away leaning against a doghouse. I'd be interested to hear the other cues you have to say as well.Well, why practice something incorrectly? Sure, there's reasons to do what you're doing if you're just working on your hands, but that doesn't explain why you'd want to show us what you do as only a partial drill.

The basic set of cues runs something like this.

~ Approach the ball from slightly to the right with a right-left foot pattern.
~ Glide down into the ball with the glove close to flat on the ground and in front of your feet, slightly to the left of center, and your back parallel to the ground (like in TL_Dad's photo).
~ Trap the ball in the pocket or heel area of the glove while still gliding left.
~ Pull the ball out of your glove as you rise and turn your shoulders to point them to the target.
~ Another quick right/left step combo as you continue to rise and pull the ball back.
~ Snap the ball to the first baseman with your most comfortable strong throwing motion, allowing for any tailing action that your ball may have.

[songtitle]

More often they have to make a throw very quickly, and it might be a submarine, side arm, or back flip throw, from some pretty crazy off balanced positions.

I think he could have figured out that you dont need a 4 seam grip on a flip. :rolleyes:

Any overhand throw from 3rd, deep at SS, catcher to any base, or from the OF, will need 4 seam grip.

Fernando Vina was a 2nd baseman.

[baseballdad]

CoachW suggested looking at he Chicago Academy drills on youtube and I think they do a really nice job. I would be interested in opinions on this "deflection" method of receiving balls to the midsection. It seems to be a more advanced version of the standard fingers up, fingers down catching. As coaches is this the technique you teach LLers?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKxRzRbSnk4&NR=1

[PhilliesPhan22]

Fingers down, butt down.

[baseballdad]

The video is dealing with receiving balls to the midsection, not GBs sorry I wasn't clearer.

[Jake Patterson]

I think I got this photo from this site.I feel Perdroia is one of the most fundementally sound, but I make the following adjustments when training kids. Presenting more of the glove to theball by having it as close to 90 degrees to the ground as possible gives the ball a better chance of hitting the glove.
70518

[scorekeeper]

…Any overhand throw from 3rd, deep at SS, catcher to any base, or from the OF, will need 4 seam grip.

Need? No way. Better? Maybe.

Fernando Vina was a 2nd baseman.

Yes he was, in MLB. But, in HS, JUCO, and college, he played one heck of a lot of SS too.

Ya know who he credits with teaching him how to make the throw as quickly as possible? Omar Vizquel. I suppose Omar was a 2nd baseman too.

Look, if you think its more important to throw the ball as straight as possible than getting it there as quickly as possible, good on ya. All I’m saying is, a guy with a MLB gold glove told me differently, and a MLB MVP told his ex-HS coach the same thing, and I wasn’t exactly chopped liver as a catcher, never once worried about how I gripped the ball.

[songtitle]

Look, if you think its more important to throw the ball as straight as possible than getting it there as quickly as possible, good on ya.

Please describe to us how a random grip is quicker than a 4 seam grip. I'm waiting to tell our pitchers. Most people rotate the ball as they bring it out of their glove.

Also, thousands and thousands of people played pro ball. I'm sure you can find a few that will say just about anything.

[3and0]

Well, why practice something incorrectly? Sure, there's reasons to do what you're doing if you're just working on your hands, but that doesn't explain why you'd want to show us what you do as only a partial drill.

The basic set of cues runs something like this.

~ Approach the ball from slightly to the right with a right-left foot pattern.
~ Glide down into the ball with the glove close to flat on the ground and in front of your feet, slightly to the left of center, and your back parallel to the ground (like in TL_Dad's photo).
~ Trap the ball in the pocket or heel area of the glove while still gliding left.
~ Pull the ball out of your glove as you rise and turn your shoulders to point them to the target.
~ Another quick right/left step combo as you continue to rise and pull the ball back.
~ Snap the ball to the first baseman with your most comfortable strong throwing motion, allowing for any tailing action that your ball may have.
I basically do it just to work on hands and getting a grip on the ball out of the glove, stuff like that. I haven't been playing any infield lately since I pulled a muscle in my shoulder or else I'd get you a game/practice clip

[scorekeeper]

Please describe to us how a random grip is quicker than a 4 seam grip.

Because no matter how much you want to dispute it, farting round with the grip takes time, plus it takes the player’s mind off what he should be concentrating on.

I'm waiting to tell our pitchers.

Now where did that come from? It sounds as though you’re equating QUICKER in this context, with velocity of a pitched ball. Why?

Most people rotate the ball as they bring it out of their glove.

So? Are they also consciously searching for the seams to make sure they have the correct orientation?

Also, thousands and thousands of people played pro ball. I'm sure you can find a few that will say just about anything.

1st of all, there’s a little difference between a multiple gold glove winner talking about fielding, and some guy who’s playing his 4th year in low A ball. 2nd. I’m also sure you can get just about any athlete to say anything for a price. In fact, I’ve gotten Fernando to change his mind about a couple of things, but they had to do with the rules, not about playing the field. Knowing the man’s parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, at least 5 coaches he’s played for, and I can’t even guess how many players he laced ‘em up with, I can tell you that he has never, ever, said anything because he thought it was what the other guy in a discussion wanted to hear, that I ever heard about.

Why don’t you check with some guys of equal caliber and see what answer you’re given. But do what I did when I got slammed. Don’t give your reasons for wanting to know and don’t give your or anyone else’s opinion. Just ask whoever it is go through the steps of fielding a ball and making a throw on a routine play, and on a difficult play that requires rapid fielding and a quick hard throw.

If they don’t mention adjusting about adjusting their grip to grip it on the seams to make the throw as straight as possible, ask why it wasn’t mentioned.

If it was mentioned, let us know the fellow’s name and we’ll do what we can to find out who is the most accurate.

It sounds a great deal as though you’re making this into a big deal because its me. But I don’t work that way. Most often people who are having the dogma they follow challenged, are the ones acting with the indignity you seem to be displaying. This isn’t personal! This isn’t personal! You made a statement, and I challenged it. Its no big deal.

[songtitle]

Here is a good video on fielding by Jaeger Sports.

http://www.videojug.com/interview/fielding-in-baseball-2

In this video, Jaeger teaches the 4 seam grip for fielding. He instructs Cal State Fullerton, University of San Diego, St. Louis Cardinals, Colorado Rockies, UCLA Baseball, and more.

[THop]

Great Thread! Long over due (in my opinion)

[songtitle]

Question for the panel.

Do you teach to put your glove horizontally on the ground? (like the picture at #11)
Or do you teach to have your glove touching the ground at 45 degree angle?

I teach 45 degree, but not sure about it. Seems like balls hit the palm frequently the other way.

Thanks.

[scorekeeper]

Here is a good video on fielding by Jaeger Sports.

http://www.videojug.com/interview/fielding-in-baseball-2

In this video, Jaeger teaches the 4 seam grip for fielding. He instructs Cal State Fullerton, University of San Diego, St. Louis Cardinals, Colorado Rockies, UCLA Baseball, and more.

You’re grasping at straws again, and you’re not getting it.

No one has said it wouldn’t be wonderful for a fielder who was going to make a throw to grip it in such a way as to minimize its horizontal movement, then to throw it with an arm slot to enhance what the grip is doing. The problem is, this is the real world!

The more “slant” on an arm slot, the more “drift” on the throw because the slant creates the rotation to change. So, when a fielder has to make any kind of a quick throw and won’t be making that throw overhand, guess what? They’re putting horizontal movement on the ball, which is exactly opposite why you want to use the 4 seam grip in the 1st place!

And what does Jaeger say about fielding a ball with the bare hand, like a great bunt the fielder is running to pick up? I suppose that fielder should take his mind off executing the play, and concentrate on figuring out how to grab the ball with the correct seam orientation. Do you feel Jaeger is the ultimate baseball authority?

This is the same old baseball dogma that says IF’rs should only throw over-the-top, and gets coaches to tell kids who are fielding and making perfectly fine throws that they’re making a mistake. Its horse pucky! I don’t mind seeing the kids get taught why they should try to throw the ball with the least movement possible, but I do mind the foolish thought that there’s only one way to do that, and that way should be used on every play. That’s patently wrong.

The next time you watch a game with quality fielders, watch very very very closely at how many times the throws are made right over-the-top.

And out of curiosity, how much movement do you think is possible on a throw from corner to corner? I’ll give you a hint. A professional pitcher can get a ball to break about 17”, and that’s at 1,800 RPM. http://www.100.nist.gov/curverelease.htm So to take into account that the pitcher actually only has to throw it 55’ after release, let’s go with it being able to break 42” on a corner to corner throw. But that’s assuming a top pitcher trying to throw a curve, not a fielder just trying to throw the ball and hit a target about 12’ in diameter, with someone of equal ability trying to catch that throw.

[songtitle]

scorekeeper, Everyone here knows you won't use a 4 seam grip on a flip or a bare handed throw. It goes without saying, but somehow you did.

[scorekeeper]

scorekeeper, Everyone here knows you won't use a 4 seam grip on a flip or a bare handed throw. It goes without saying, but somehow you did.

How would you know what EVERYONE here knows? You forget that there are lots of new coaches, and kids who look at this board too. That’s why you have to be careful in what you say, especially if you’re only going to make posts that would fit on Twitter.

I’m glad you eliminated those two situations though. Now we’ve established that re-gripping for every throw is just not what should happen. Let’s see if we can identify any other situations where re-gripping isn’t the ideal thing to do.

How about a play where a 3B charges a slow grounder and has to make a side-armed or submarine throw? How about a play where the 2b runs across the middle, makes a great play on a ball, but has to throw it back across his body? How about a 2B or SS after taking a toss or throw, then has to throw to 1st for an attempted DP? How about a grounder between 3rd and short that the 3B makes the play on, but has to throw to 1st while running toward right field? What about a 1B who catches a pick off throw and has to make the throw to 2nd?

I hope you’re starting to understand. There are a lot more plays where it makes little sense to re-grip, then make that perfect over-the-top throw, than not. And all I’m trying to say is, every situation shouldn’t be covered by one simple statement like “Infielders should use a 4 seam on throws.”

[songtitle]

Scorekeeper, help me out here. I want to understand your take on using a 4 seam grip while fielding.

You are saying we should not listen to Jaeger, who instructs major league teams and players to use a 4 seam grip while fielding, because you talked to a player once that didn't use the 4 seam grip, yet he stopped playing SS (ended up playing 2B where the 4 seam would rarely be used) when he got to the majors?

I just want to clarify since "there are lots of new coaches, and kids who look at this board"

[3and0]

I would say if you have the time and it's possible try and find the 4-seam grip but don't waste time trying to do it. I think most players can get it or atleast close to it right out of there glove while they bring there hand back because i noticed its way i do and it just feels natural to do that

[Infinite]

I never worry or think about how i grip the ball. as long as its in the right position in my hand and secure its fine with me.

Trying to rotate the ball before throwing can lead to many double pumps...

[scorekeeper]

Scorekeeper, help me out here. I want to understand your take on using a 4 seam grip while fielding.

I guess even though I’ve tried, I can’t make myself clear to you, but I’ll be glad to try again.

[/QUOTE]You are saying we should not listen to Jaeger, who instructs major league teams and players to use a 4 seam grip while fielding, because you talked to a player once that didn't use the 4 seam grip, yet he stopped playing SS (ended up playing 2B where the 4 seam would rarely be used) when he got to the majors? [/QUOTE]

You’re starting off all wrong again. You’re making a statement rather than asking a question, and that’s a lousy way to argue, unless of course you have a quote where I said that. Next time, try Are you saying …. You see, this way I have to chide you like a little kid for putting words in my mouth, while the other way I’m forced to simply answer your question.

So, to begin, I never told anyone not to listen to anything anyone else told them that I can remember. If you have evidence to the contrary, please make the quote available and I’ll be glad to discuss it.

Now let’s discuss Mr. Jaeger. Do you really believe he instructs major league teams and players, or do you suppose the truth is more along the lines of, he instructs players ML teams have interest in, or have signed contracts in their organization? Think about that before you answer. Remember, when you say ML teams and players, you’re talking about players already on a ML roster, and therefore supposed to be the very best in the world.

Now as for him telling anyone to use a 4 seam grip while fielding. Again, if you can find anywhere I said that a 4 seam grip shouldn’t be used, please quote it. If I remember correctly, what I said, and this is only a paraphrase, trying to grope around for a grip, except on the most routine of balls, is simply not a good idea.

Now lets look a little closer at what you said here. You’re gonna take a shot at a an ex-ML player who has multiple gold gloves among the many other significant achievements of an outstanding ML career, because he changed from SS to 2B, even though he was instructed by arguably the best SS ever to play the game at any level on how to make the throw as quickly as possible? That’s just flat out silly, and smacks of pettiness because you’re angry at me.

But let’s go further. Perhaps this is another place I erred, but I don’t remember anything about the technique you find so wonderful, even from Mr. Jaeger, who limited it to only SS’s! What’s going on? Are the P, 1B, 2B, 3B, and C chopped liver who never have to make a throw? I could swear that at least once you mentioned the catcher.

Yeah. Here it is. And lawdy day, will you lookee what else it says? It mentions the 3B too! In the words of the immortal Gomer Pyle, surprise, surprise, surprise!

But look at what else it says! It includes OF’ers too, but I guess those ratty 2B’s, 1B’s, and P’s never have to make any kind of long throw, so you don’t bother to include them in your statement.

…Any overhand throw from 3rd, deep at SS, catcher to any base, or from the OF, will need 4 seam grip.

Face it, you’re on the weak side of this discussion, and firing salvos in every direction only makes your argument look even more weak.

I just want to clarify since "there are lots of new coaches, and kids who look at this board"[/QUOTE]

By all means, let’s make sure everything’s as clear as possible. If you want to teach players to re-grip as they’re making a play, go ahead. But that doesn’t mean you’re teaching them either the “best” or most “efficient” way to play the game.

Fortunately, this is one of those things that can be tested to some degree. Get out the stopwatch and the camera and run a test. Hit balls to players at whatever positions you feel are the “important” ones for this argument, then time them from the time they touch the ball until the time it reaches the target fielder. Make sure they handle the ball both ways to get a decent comparison. Then take your stop watch results and sit down in front of the TV or screen, and judge the accuracy.

If you do it honestly and find there’s a significant advantage to re-gripping and then throwing, by all means, that’s what you should teach.

[JRH11]

Just sitting here at my desk, messing with a baseball. I flipped it up in the air, caught it in my left hand and immediatey got my right hand on it to throw.

CONCLUSION...........If you are looking for quickness, you'd be lucky to get a four seam grip on regular basis. Indifelders need to know the runners. With a little more time, a four seamer is possible.

[songtitle]

Cal Ripken on using the 4 seam grip on a relay from the outfield:

After picking up the ball with a four-seam grip, the outfielder should turn and point the front shoulder toward the intended target, shuffle the feet toward the target and make a strong throw.

The ball should be received with two hands for a quick transfer and thrown using a four-seam grip.


ripkenbaseball.com (http://www.ripkenbaseball.com/news/index.html?article_id=151)

[songtitle]

What are Scouts and College Coaches Looking for in Outfielders? (http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:IMVU7MzUV1AJ:www.baseballcoaches.or g/outfielders.pdf+outfield+throw+four+seam&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

To maximize overall throwing ability, it is important to throw with the fingers on top of the ball with a four-seam grip and work for maximum extension with the arm, culminating in a proper release point out in front of the landing foot. This way, the ball will be more likely to explode out of the hand and less likely to tail away from the target.

[wogdoggy]

the 4 seam grip is PREFERABLE...I heard of serious players who practice trying to pull the ball out of their glove with 4 seams...

while we are at it what is the most optimal way of shooting a basketball{spin and seam pattern} there is a preferred way just like the 4 seam grip..but it doesnt always work out that way

[scorekeeper]

Cal Ripken on using the 4 seam grip on a relay from the outfield:

ripkenbaseball.com (http://www.ripkenbaseball.com/news/index.html?article_id=151)

What are Scouts and College Coaches Looking for in Outfielders? (http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:IMVU7MzUV1AJ:www.baseballcoaches.or g/outfielders.pdf+outfield+throw+four+seam&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

You just won’t give it up will you? Do you think its impossible that Cal Ripken would speak in cliché’s and/or baseball dogma? And as for scouts looking for a 4 seam grip, here’s what I did, just for you. One of the dad’s on our team is a full fledged scout for a ML team. I called and asked him how he tells whether an OF’r throws with a 4 seam grip. He laughed at me!

Then he asked me how I thought anyone sitting 200’-500’ from an outfielder going full blast and making a throw, would be able to make that call. All they do is rate arm strength and accuracy, and in some cases route to the ball.

How many people have to tell you the same thing? Yes, for an optimum throw, a 4 seam grip and over-the-top throw would be best. But how many times is a player, heck, all the players in a given game gonna get the time to do that?