Calling pitch's?

[bbb3601]

We play on a U11 team that staff's a quote un quote pitching coach. He calls every single pitch location etc. While I understand the need for some of this etc....is it usual at this age to call every single detail of a pitch at 11? Most of the other teams I see call very few if any their calls seem to be up to their catcher. Don't attack me if this is a stupid question because if I knew the answer I wouldn't post the question!

[Rufus67]

Not a stupid question at all. I coach recreational ball (11-12U) and call the pitches for my pitchers. The skill level isn't there, generally, for them to worry about the count, what the hitter can/can't do, and have to worry about pitch selection on top of where to locate the pitch (they're sometimes lucky if they can get it over the plate). I'm not calling anything weird and only teach fastballs (4-seam, 2-seam) and change up at this age, but it takes something off their plate and allows them to just try and execute. I also call pitch-outs so they know in advance, before they get to the stretch, if they're going over to a base.

I'm also coaching an all-star team this summer and will allow them to shake off pitches. There's important learning there - case in point. On Saturday my son threw a high fastball that the batter (big kid) chased and missed. I called a change up that was placed perfectly in the dirt that the batter waved at. I call a 4-seam up around the chin to finish him off and my son shakes it off, choosing to go with another change-up that he hangs and the batter parks into a gap for a triple. On the way to DQ after the game we discussed the situation and what did/didn't work. There are learning opportunities all over the place and this was a good one (e.g., recognizing that high heat was working (he struck the same batter out the second time he came up by throwing only high heat), that if you're going to throw a change don't hang it, etc.).

I can't speak to the travel ball and if the battery is better/more aware of the game variables so hopefully you can get some feedback from those folks.

[skipper5]

This is a great question.

For our 11u allstar teams, we had a simple verbal call for the changeup (we'd call the catcher's last name--"come on, smith") and and for a heater upstairs (come on, Steve). For the occasional attempt at getting the ball inside, we'd get the catcher's attention and pat our chest. Beyond that, the catchers set up just above the knees and the pitchers knew that we coaches generally preferred lower fastballs to higher fastballs, but that high strikes were better than a base on balls. (They'd try to waste a pitch low-and-away on 0-2 counts without being asked, unless we said something like "come right at him." )

I've coached 11u allstars on three different occasions, and never had a pitcher that could hit quadrants of the zone reliably enough to keep him from getting frustrated and down on himself if we seemed to expect it. Others on this board have had 8 yo pitchers who can throw reliably to quadrants, which would a fun luxury to have.

Which leads to: If I had an 11yo who could reliably throw to quadrants of the zone, would I call location of pitches from the bench? I don't recall having 11yo catchers who had a clue about how to read a hitter or call a game, so I probably would have yielded to the temptation to be the button-pusher for a pinpoint 11yo pitcher in select ball.

Edited after having read Rufus' post: He illustrates the way that calling pitches from the bench actually can accelerate a catcher's education about how to call a game, as long as the coach discusses things on the bench, including admitting his own mistakes as they occur. But beware of frustrating your pitchers and making them worse by calling locations in such a way that it creates unrealistic expectations.

[songtitle]

I've never seen a catcher call pitches at 10,11,12,13, or 14.

Many travel teams have a pitching coach - we do.

[Rajun Cajun]

I wouldn't call myslef a pitching coach, but I try and read every book written and watch every instructional video ever made. My son has been working with a great instructor for a few years, he is 10 years old. I got roped into working with all the pitchers as some do not take pitching instruction due to finances.

Anyway, I call the pitches. I don't call location. It is understood by my catcher that the change up is low and away.

I can't depend or count on any of our 10U kids to locate the outside corner or inside corner so I don't call location. We work on it in the bullpen but because we aren't ready for it, we just let the catcher work the middle of the plate. If we have a kid 0 and 2, our catcher moves over a bit on the outside half of the plate, but nothing crazy.

It is good if your kid throws 65% strikes at 10-11U. Anything above that is above average. If he can throw 75% you may consider calling location, but every pitcher is different. Be careful not to apply this to all the pitchers on your team.

[songtitle]

We never, ever call a pitch to be thrown down the middle of the plate. Ever. Period.

[scorekeeper]

Rufus67,

So the boy missed up with his CU. What would have happened if he’d have missed down with that 4 seamer you called? Instead of the ball going into the gap for a triple, it may well have gone over the fence for a jack.

The chances were much better for him to have made a good pitch with that CU because it was his idea. That means he was totally confident in it. Unfortunately, he did what every pitcher does. He made a mistake and the batter got lucky. While that’s true, there’s no guarantee that your strategy would have worked any better, even if he put the pitch exactly where he wanted it.

How in the world did baseball succeed so well for roughly 140 years without coaches calling pitches? This topic has been argued for the last 2 decades or so because coaches calling pitches has taken over amateur baseball like a plague.

What it does is slow down the game to the point where people ache to see the game over! It also turns every pitcher into a clone in the sense that it forces them all to throw at the same pace. But pitchers need to have the freedom to throw at whatever pace is comfortable to them, and that changes as the situations change, and as the pitcher chages.

Why don’t you get with your batteries and make sure they have the benefit of your sage teachings, then allow them to call the next few games on their own? What could possible happen?

[scorekeeper]

We never, ever call a pitch to be thrown down the middle of the plate. Ever. Period.

Why? Sounds like either you believe your pitchers could do it on demand, that every ball thrown there would be blasted, or some combination of the two.

[skipper5]

We never, ever call a pitch to be thrown down the middle of the plate. Ever. Period.

Finally, I'm wordless (almost).

[jbolt_2000]

I coach 11-12 Majors Little League. I call every pitch, but I communicate to the catcher with hand signals. He then gives the signal to the pitcher.

99% of the time it is as a learning tool to teach the catcher how to receive/relay signals and learn what picthes to use during what situations. Granted we only throw 2-seam, 4-seam and CU. But it allows our catchers to learn and progress to the next level.

Sometimes with a confident catcher I will allow him to call an inning or two on his own and see if he is learning.

The other side to that is that my pitchers learn how to read the catcher's signals. I have been coaching the same 3 to 5 kids over the last 3 years and every year we learn different techniques for calling pitches (i.e. 2 fingers = 2-seam, 3 fingers = CU, or fingers mean nothing and it is the location of the glove that calls the pitch).

The other 1% I call pitches with true meaning. If I know the #4 hitter has already hit three jacks this year at belt high fastballs. I will have my pitcher pitch around him. But this is very few and far between.

Not too mention that control is questionable at this age for LL. Of the 6 pitchers I have only 2 can really control thier locactions better than the others.

Bottomline - I use it as teaching tool so the kids can be better prepared for the next level.

[Rufus67]

Rufus67,

So the boy missed up with his CU. What would have happened if he’d have missed down with that 4 seamer you called? Instead of the ball going into the gap for a triple, it may well have gone over the fence for a jack.



SC,
I happen to agree with your assessment and I use it as a teaching tool just as you suggest. The truth is, at 12U and coming out of a rec league, they're not thinking about everything that may go into a pitch selection. As you suggest, the world won't come crashing down if they make the wrong selection/location/execution, but it provides another way to teach.

I'll give you an example. My son was pitching in our local end of season tournament a couple of weeks ago and pretty soon every guy who went up there was deep in the box. I was letting him call his own game up to that point but signaled to our catcher to have him start throwing change ups. When he came in he asked me why I started doing that and, when I asked him if he noticed where the batters were standing in the box, he said he hadn't.

That's not because he incompetent or unable to learn, just that he isn't used to looking for that kind of thing. The batter during the all-star game may have parked a belt high 4-seam, like you say, but we'll never know. Either way it provided a learning opportunity that I hope he'll think about next time is all. That's also why I let them shake me off if they get an idea of their own or feel more confident in one pitch versus another in a given situation.

[wogdoggy]

at 11 yrs old,,you can teach the kids how to pitch..don't think these kids are going to locate pitches ..I would bet they could only throw about 60 percent for strikes let alone locate that strike..

just teach your kids to watch the hitters...you can tell hitters happy spots and weakness their first time at bat..this will help u pitch them the second time around..watch to see if a hitter is a 'scooper' or a high ball lover..


teach them change ups..teach them when to throw change ups...teach them that change ups belong low and outside ONLY and tell them why..they will become fascinated and will develop a greater love for the game..teach them to KNOw when a kid is on their fastball and what to do...etc etc

[scorekeeper]

I guess this is an argument that’s impossible for either side to win. There’s no way you could ever prove that your way was the best way to teach, and there’s no way I could prove it wasn’t. All we really have is anecdotal evidence.

The only way to really prove it one way or the other would be to have pitchers perform both ways in as close to the same conditions as possible, then compare the results. To tell the truth, if I was a coach, you can bet your house that I’d find some way to quantify which of the two teaching techniques I would employ, but I doubt most folks would do the same.

They don’t see it as major question, but I can tell you from my son’s baseball pitching experience from a 10YO LLI pitcher to a 19YO JUCO pitcher. His numbers across the board were much better when he played for coaches who didn’t call pitches. Now I’m sure that had something to do with his pitching style, but none-the-less, it proved to me that calling pitches for everyone is simply not the best method for everyone.

[songtitle]

I guess this is an argument that’s impossible for either side to win. There’s no way you could ever prove that your way was the best way to teach, and there’s no way I could prove it wasn’t. All we really have is anecdotal evidence.

The only way to really prove it one way or the other would be to have pitchers perform both ways in as close to the same conditions as possible, then compare the results.

You prove it when you play the game. If you pitch down the middle, you will lose the game. It's not that complicated.

[shake-n-bake]

I wouldn't mind it as much if there was some explaining and teaching that went along with it.

My son has had coaches where there was discussion between he and the coach about what sort of plan he felt good with or just pitching philosophy in general. He's had other coaches that remind me a little of Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men. "I run my unit how I run my unit!"

Also, I see a lot of emphasis on the "wow" factor - hottest 4S / biggest curve - who cares where they land. That is totally not my son's game. His game is show hitters a curve, or 4S inside once in a while early in the count and try to locate a bunch of 2S and sliders/cutters. But, since his coach calls the pitches and he feels pressure to be high on the velocity list, he reluctantly pitches much differently than he'd like.

I watched him pitch in a tournament this weekend and the coaches didn't call the pitches. Both the coaches have worked with my son before and all they do is a have a little job briefing pre-game or between innings, and off he goes. No problem with results and he enjoys it more. Since the game is for the kids, I like it better in my son's case anyway when the coaches approach it this way. Oh yes, he does work much faster too.

[scorekeeper]

You prove it when you play the game. If you pitch down the middle, you will lose the game. It's not that complicated.

Now that’s horse pucky if I ever read it! You’ve got to get more experience. When you do, you’ll realize that while what you said is true, in that a pitch down the middle is easier to hit than one that isn’t, there are a million different ways to throw a pitch down the middle of the plate!

And think of this. How many pitches that are right down the middle at the belt, are looked at and not swung at? Why do you suppose that is? Can it be because the batter was somehow fooled by the pitch? How many BP pitches right down the middle are jacked?

How about this one. If both pitchers in a ML game threw a 4 seam FB every pitch, and at 85mph, and right down the pike at the belt, what would the score be after the 1st inning?

[All-StarLF1713]

im 14 and when i pitch i get signs. i am pretty much the only one in my junior league that gets signs. i know i am the only one on my team that gets signs. but i dont do location. im a pitcher that gets by on throwing relativly hard and getting around the plate. i throw a 4 seam, 2 seam, cut fb, curve, change, and a slider. its beneficial to the catcher knowing what pitch is coming, but thats with breaking pitches. and at 11, usually kids' arms arent mature enough to throw breaking pitches.

[songtitle]

You’ve got to get more experience.

Now that is hilarious.

[scorekeeper]

SNB,

That’s pretty much the experience I had with my son, and I couldn’t have found it more wanting as a philosophy, because it didn’t make sense. What makes sense to me is, if a P throws a 78MPH CU and comes back with an 85MPH FB, the less time between that CU and FB, faster that FB looks! And its exactly the same going the other way.

What really makes me angry is, calling pitches isn’t brain surgery! If a coach is so freakin’ smart, why doesn’t he pass that knowledge on.

This past Sunday I was talking to a scout. He told me he was going to go to the final game of the playoffs for a local boy, one of the highest touted HS catchers in the entire country.

As we talked, I mentioned one of my biggest pet peeves, this one, and asked him how many catchers that get drafted know how to call pitches. After he was done laughing, he told me the biggest problem ML teams have with catchers, isn’t their arms, their blocking skills, their hitting, base running, or anything else. They all know how to do those things.

The biggest problem with catcher development is teaching them to call games! He told me that if there were a way to check, but there isn’t, people would see catchers who learn to call games the fastest, get to the show the fastest.

[songtitle]

calling pitches isn’t brain surgery!

Calling pitches is the most important, least understood part of a baseball game.

[scorekeeper]

Now that is hilarious.

Why? If you’ve been a ML coach with 20-40 years of experience at the highest levels of the game, why not tell us?

Why don’t you tell us how many runs would be scored, or do you think the top of the 1st would never end?

[scorekeeper]

Calling pitches is the most important, least understood part of a baseball game.

And I suppose that with all your experience, you’ll deign to enlighten us all.

[songtitle]

Why? If you’ve been a ML coach with 20-40 years of experience at the highest levels of the game, why not tell us?

Why don’t you tell us how many runs would be scored, or do you think the top of the 1st would never end?

My mission here is to learn stuff. I am not here to brag or condemn others.

[scorekeeper]

My mission here is to learn stuff. I am not here to brag or condemn others.

Good. So answer the question and justify your reasoning. Maybe you can teach me something, or maybe I can teach you something.

Ya know, there’s a lot of things people think are true in baseball that are only true in its dogma. But, there are a lot of things in baseball dogma that are true too, so its often difficult to get to the real answers.

[bluezebra]

We play on a U11 team that staff's a quote un quote pitching coach. He calls every single pitch location etc. While I understand the need for some of this etc....is it usual at this age to call every single detail of a pitch at 11? Most of the other teams I see call very few if any their calls seem to be up to their catcher. Don't attack me if this is a stupid question because if I knew the answer I wouldn't post the question!

"Calling pitch's?"

You've made 'pitch' possessive. What is the pitch calling? I believe you mean 'pitches', which is plural.

Bob

[songtitle]

"Calling pitch's?"

You've made 'pitch' possessive. What is the pitch calling? I believe you mean 'pitches', which is plural.

Bob

I hope you're joking. The sun rose today.

[bbb3601]

Wow! I had no idea this was such a touchy subject. My only take was that our pitching coach tries to make all of the kids throw like his. We have a great capable catcher, and I just thought like..here you go Johnny this is what Tommy can throw work the batters be smart, and don't hang one. If this doesn't work put in a new kid. Kinda takes the fun out of learning. Maybe this is just a way for daddy ball to keep control?

[rkbenn]

Wow! I had no idea this was such a touchy subject. My only take was that our pitching coach tries to make all of the kids throw like his. We have a great capable catcher, and I just thought like..here you go Johnny this is what Tommy can throw work the batters be smart, and don't hang one. If this doesn't work put in a new kid. Kinda takes the fun out of learning. Maybe this is just a way for daddy ball to keep control?

Why should an 11 or 12 year old call pitches when they don't call pitches when they go up through the ranks. I was at a D-1 game the other night and not 1 kid called their own game. None of the coaches had a kid on either of those teams, so I don't think daddy ball had anything to do with it.


If it was up to the kids they would throw all kinds of crazy stuff like a knuckle curve they just leared from Uncle Rico, or throw a breaking pitch in the dirt that gets through for the winning run. Even 20 straight curve balls from an 11 year old which I've seen on many occasions.

Coaches should know their staff and should make adjustments accordingly. IMO, if kids want to learn to playing real baseball, pitchers need to learn to have the game called for them.

[bbb3601]

Why should an 11 or 12 year old call pitches when they don't call pitches when they go up through the ranks. I was at a D-1 game the other night and not 1 kid called their own game. None of the coaches had a kid on either of those teams, so I don't think daddy ball had anything to do with it.


If it was up to the kids they would throw all kinds of crazy stuff like a knuckle curve they just leared from Uncle Rico, or throw a breaking pitch in the dirt that gets through for the winning run. Even 20 straight curve balls from an 11 year old which I've seen on many occasions.

Coaches should know their staff and should make adjustments accordingly. IMO, if kids want to learn to playing real baseball, pitchers need to learn to have the game called for them.

Well my kid doesn't play D1 and probably never will. He is 11, and doesn't have a uncle named Rico. My point was what is wrong with a catcher who knows the game and a pitcher who has control over a fastball and a nice change-up calling a game. Let a coach call the pitch, but learn the game. Does it have to be so scripted? I have also seen breaking pitch's roll to the backstop regardless of who is calling them. While I do agree that coach's should take the time to learn their staff this isn't always the case at this age group, and that was the point of my question. I also wouldn't expect daddy ball at the D1 level, but it is alive and thriving at U11 in Ohio. Yes my kid does throw an occasional K curve he is allowed three per game and no they don't roll to the backstop. I never said I was against it. I was seeking feedback from people with the knowledge to provide it to me. My question has been answered as it always is. Thanks to all who replied.

[AgentX]

If it was up to the kids they would throw all kinds of crazy stuff like a knuckle curve they just leared from Uncle Rico, or throw a breaking pitch in the dirt that gets through for the winning run.

http://www.reelmovienews.com/images/gallery/uncle-rico-picture.jpg

:thumbsup:

[bbb3601]

That is to funny. You made my night.

[Rajun Cajun]

You prove it when you play the game. If you pitch down the middle, you will lose the game. It's not that complicated.

Yes and no.

Lets say you have some kids that lack the control to live on and chip away at the corners. You need to pitch it down the middle and rely on your defense.

The LSU Tigers pitching philosophy is "pitch to contact." It sounds strange, but they feel that they had to change their philosophy when Coach Maineri got there from a finesse pitching to more of a pitch to contact with off speed stuff to mess up the timing.

It really is complicatd unless you have pitchers who can have command. Which, I feel is a function of location, control, and velocity.

Not many youth players are there yet.

Our goal was 65% strikes this year at 10U. As a team we are about 77% for our 3 starters. That is pretty good. If we are ahead in the count, or if we are even and the command is good I might try inside or outside stuff.

The 2 seamer naturally rides in on a right handed batter, so no need to go out of the way and go too hard inside. The change up is always outside for us. The 12-6 curve may or may not be in the zone. It's 50/50. Four seamer location is also 50/50 right now. Just not enough control yet.

[azmatsfan]

My two cents. I've seen a lot of youth coaches call the pitches, so that's not unusual, but personally I'd like to see the catchers and pitchers learn how to call a game. As a coach I would take my starting pitcher and catcher aside and explain how I'd like the game called in general. Then during the game if there are adjustments to be made in how the game is being called the coach can work with the catcher between innings.

Another problem I see is that the pitchers aren't necessarily learning to pitch. For example, my son has a strong arm and his coach calls the pitches. Because kids have a hard time catching up to his fast ball he calls for fbs literally 98% of the time. Some games he never calls for a cu. My son works on his cu and I'd like to see him learn how to use it when he's ahead in the count. I've know how important that pitch will be especially since he's moving from 46' to 50' this year. I think he'll be surprised the difference that 4' will make.

Lastly, an amusing anectdote from last season. With a runner on first and the opposing team's best hitter up, my son threw a change-up chest high over the middle of the plate on an 0-1 count that the kid ripped for a run scoring double. After the game I asked if the coach had asked for the change-up down the middle. His reply, "No. That was a pitch-out." I guess we neglected to work on locating his pitch-outs during the off-season.

[rkbenn]

My two cents. I've seen a lot of youth coaches call the pitches, so that's not unusual, but personally I'd like to see the catchers and pitchers learn how to call a game. As a coach I would take my starting pitcher and catcher aside and explain how I'd like the game called in general. Then during the game if there are adjustments to be made in how the game is being called the coach can work with the catcher between innings.

Another problem I see is that the pitchers aren't necessarily learning to pitch. For example, my son has a strong arm and his coach calls the pitches. Because kids have a hard time catching up to his fast ball he calls for fbs literally 98% of the time. Some games he never calls for a cu. My son works on his cu and I'd like to see him learn how to use it when he's ahead in the count. I've know how important that pitch will be especially since he's moving from 46' to 50' this year. I think he'll be surprised the difference that 4' will make.

Lastly, an amusing anectdote from last season. With a runner on first and the opposing team's best hitter up, my son threw a change-up chest high over the middle of the plate on an 0-1 count that the kid ripped for a run scoring double. After the game I asked if the coach had asked for the change-up down the middle. His reply, "No. That was a pitch-out." I guess we neglected to work on locating his pitch-outs during the off-season.

It's hard eneogh out there for kids to do the right thing, let along know when to throw what at what time. If your coach calls for a pitch and it gets jacked, it's on the coach. If the coach calls a pitch and the pitcher shakes it off, it's on him. If a pitcher misses a location, it's on the pitcher. This is true in the MLB. If it's good for them, why would we put it in the hands of an 11y/o to make the right choice? I educated my son about this as well but when he is out there he appreciates the game gets called for him.

I

[ctandc]

I think that there are way too many pitchers and catchers that get to high school and don't know how to call a game. My 12 year old guys do their own thing. They make mistakes, and I ask them later why they think they made a mistake, and what should they have done. How are these kids supposed to learn if every pitch is called for them?

I average calling for a few pitches a game. I also allow my pitchers to shake me off, but regardless of outcome, they have to explain WHY they shook me off. Good ballplayers learn the game and how to think on their feet.

Just my lowly 2 cents.

[rkbenn]

I think that there are way too many pitchers and catchers that get to high school and don't know how to call a game. My 12 year old guys do their own thing. They make mistakes, and I ask them later why they think they made a mistake, and what should they have done. How are these kids supposed to learn if every pitch is called for them?

I average calling for a few pitches a game. I also allow my pitchers to shake me off, but regardless of outcome, they have to explain WHY they shook me off. Good ballplayers learn the game and how to think on their feet.

Just my lowly 2 cents.

do QB's in the NFL call their own plays? why don't they call their own plays?

[dolphindan1]

You prove it when you play the game. If you pitch down the middle, you will lose the game. It's not that complicated.

At 11 years old...right down the middle would be great pitching and I would never tell a 11 year old pitcher not to throw down the middle...strikes are more important at that age...playing with batters is 12 or 13 year olds and better and this coming from a 12u travel coach...we seldom place our pitches and only throw 2 and 4 seams and changeups...No curves...I tell them throw strikes and let the defense work....

[azmatsfan]

do QB's in the NFL call their own plays? why don't they call their own plays?

What does this have to with the discussion? In the ML's unless the pitcher and catcher are both inexperienced, they're calling the pitches.

[ctandc]

do QB's in the NFL call their own plays? why don't they call their own plays?

I thought this was a baseball board?

Do Major League pitchers and catchers call their own game?...

Why do they do that?

As someone who pitched for a pretty good while....if you can't learn to think for yourself on that mound, there will come a time when a good arm isn't enough.

I just try to TEACH and let the boys PLAY their own game.


IT's their baseball not mine.

[wogdoggy]

I thought this was a baseball board?

Do Major League pitchers and catchers call their own game?...

Why do they do that?

As someone who pitched for a pretty good while....if you can't learn to think for yourself on that mound, there will come a time when a good arm isn't enough.

I just try to TEACH and let the boys PLAY their own game.


IT's their baseball not mine.



hip hip hooray :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::bowdown:

[Deemax]

I thought this was a baseball board?

Do Major League pitchers and catchers call their own game?...

Why do they do that?

As someone who pitched for a pretty good while....if you can't learn to think for yourself on that mound, there will come a time when a good arm isn't enough.

I just try to TEACH and let the boys PLAY their own game.


IT's their baseball not mine.

Very solid post.

[Rufus67]

There are obviously differing philosophies both on what 11-12 year old batteries are capable of doing in terms of calling pitches and the best way to impart game knowledge. I know I've read some things that will cause me to re-think how (if?) I approach calling pitches during games by what I've read on this post.

One question I have for the HS/college/pro folks is this - We'll somtimes see catchers at the MLB (and college during the WS) looking into the dugout for pitch signs. Is this only for the newer pitchers/catchers? Last night I watched a battery of Kris Medlen and Brian McCann and McCann didn't once look into the dugout for a pitch. Obviously he's an experienced hand and can sheppard a rookie pitcher through a game. What's the philosophy behind those times when managers do call the pitches in MLB games (i.e., why do they sometimes do it and under what circumstances would it be appropriate)?

[rkbenn]

I thought this was a baseball board?

Do Major League pitchers and catchers call their own game?...

Why do they do that?

As someone who pitched for a pretty good while....if you can't learn to think for yourself on that mound, there will come a time when a good arm isn't enough.

I just try to TEACH and let the boys PLAY their own game.


IT's their baseball not mine.

It was an analogy, but I'm sure you knew that.

Then let them do whatever in batters box or on base path. Let there be a free for all.

I can be curtain that none of the kids I've coached would give any hitter a ball over the plate on a 2-0 or 3-0 count. They are being instructed how to call a game during the game. This is really the only time you can do this.

To each their own..

[ralanprod]

I just try to TEACH and let the boys PLAY their own game.


IT's their baseball not mine.

Very true.

It's not impossible for kids to learn how to call a game. I can use my 10yo son, who played F2 for me this season as an example. For the first few games of the season I called everything for him. Then I asked him if he understood what I was doing and if he wanted to try it himself. He did, and for the rest of the season I let him call the games with the exception of occasionally calling for pick offs or defensive plays.

Now I can't say that he always called things the same way I would have - but if I asked him why he made a certain call, he at least had a reason. He's spent the past two seasons behind the plate, and he has gotten to really know the batters from the other teams. I can hardly tell all the kids apart, but my son knows who can't hit the high heat, and who is a sucker for the low and outside pitch. He made a few decisions where he didn't take the game situation into account - but I used them as learning experiences.

Of course most of the coaches in our league think I'm a little nuts because I actually let the kids play the game and don't hound them every five seconds with "coaching" from the bench. During games I cheer, I encourage - but I really try to limit "coaching". I save that for practice.

Heck, I even let the kids coach the bases at times this season. They didn't do a bad job there at all. Plus, it kept everybody paying attention because they never knew when they might get the call to go coach.

[ctandc]

It was an analogy, but I'm sure you knew that.

Yes I understood that. But since MLB managers don't call pitches, I figured that was more in line with what we were discussing

Then let them do whatever in batters box or on base path. Let there be a free for all.

Quite a jump from calling, or not calling pitches. I try to teach the kids how to KNOW what the SMART thing is to do in a given situation.

But since you brought it up...

I have more than a few kids on my team who have been given a "green light" to steal when they think they can make it. It inspires confidence. If they KNOW that I think they can do it, they will gain more confidence in themselves and their team.

It also presents teaching opportunities. I have a kid who is very fast. He's also a super aggressive base runner and when he started with me in the Fall 08 season he had a habit of leaving too early from first, and he would get in run downs more than a few times. So I gave him the "eternal green light" however the condition was that if he left too early, and go in a rundown, he'd lose the green light, and could only steal when I told him to. So I worked on reading the pitcher, LH and RH, for getting a jump. He led my team in stolen bases and has become a very good base runner.


I can be curtain that none of the kids I've coached would give any hitter a ball over the plate on a 2-0 or 3-0 count. They are being instructed how to call a game during the game. This is really the only time you can do this.

To each their own..

But how are they learning it? If you are calling every pitch? I call a pitch a few times a game. I also allow shake off's from my pitchers, but they have to explain to me what they were thinking and why they did or didn't want that certain pitch. Same with catchers. I also explain to them WHY.

I remember pitching in a Legion Regional when I was younger. The coach would call pitches every now and again. During a critical at bat, he called a breaking ball and I shook the catcher off. I struck the batter out on a high and tight fastball.

The assistant coach started cussing me as soon as I came in the dugout. The head coach stopped him and asked me "Why did you shake me off?"

I answered him "The guy hitting was up in the box and on the plate. I thought he was looking for a breaking ball since I made him look silly his last at bat with a breaking ball. So I went high, hard, up and in. I figured if he did hit it, it would be a weak pop up or grounder to the right side."

The coach nodded and said "Good. You're thinking out there."

I guarantee you that good players learn more from their mistakes than just being told what to do.

The BIGGEST difference I see in today's kids playing baseball, and when I grew up, is the absence of "sand lot" baseball. WEEKS upon WEEKS spent JUST PLAYING. And without realizing it you'd learn things..like how the ball tails on line drives opposite field. How breaking balls tend to bounce in the dirt. How moving around on the pitching rubber can help with location.

Everything is structured. No time just to play and learn.

I tell my kids that game time is where the players show the coaches what they've learned, and where the coaches see what needs to be worked on.




Like my Dad always said "The stove is hot. I'm only telling you once. And if you touch it, I bet you'll only touch it once."

[rkbenn]

Yes I understood that. But since MLB managers don't call pitches, I figured that was more in line with what we were discussing



Quite a jump from calling, or not calling pitches. I try to teach the kids how to KNOW what the SMART thing is to do in a given situation.

But since you brought it up...

I have more than a few kids on my team who have been given a "green light" to steal when they think they can make it. It inspires confidence. If they KNOW that I think they can do it, they will gain more confidence in themselves and their team.

It also presents teaching opportunities. I have a kid who is very fast. He's also a super aggressive base runner and when he started with me in the Fall 08 season he had a habit of leaving too early from first, and he would get in run downs more than a few times. So I gave him the "eternal green light" however the condition was that if he left too early, and go in a rundown, he'd lose the green light, and could only steal when I told him to. So I worked on reading the pitcher, LH and RH, for getting a jump. He led my team in stolen bases and has become a very good base runner.




But how are they learning it? If you are calling every pitch? I call a pitch a few times a game. I also allow shake off's from my pitchers, but they have to explain to me what they were thinking and why they did or didn't want that certain pitch. Same with catchers. I also explain to them WHY.

I remember pitching in a Legion Regional when I was younger. The coach would call pitches every now and again. During a critical at bat, he called a breaking ball and I shook the catcher off. I struck the batter out on a high and tight fastball.

The assistant coach started cussing me as soon as I came in the dugout. The head coach stopped him and asked me "Why did you shake me off?"

I answered him "The guy hitting was up in the box and on the plate. I thought he was looking for a breaking ball since I made him look silly his last at bat with a breaking ball. So I went high, hard, up and in. I figured if he did hit it, it would be a weak pop up or grounder to the right side."

The coach nodded and said "Good. You're thinking out there."

I guarantee you that good players learn more from their mistakes than just being told what to do.

The BIGGEST difference I see in today's kids playing baseball, and when I grew up, is the absence of "sand lot" baseball. WEEKS upon WEEKS spent JUST PLAYING. And without realizing it you'd learn things..like how the ball tails on line drives opposite field. How breaking balls tend to bounce in the dirt. How moving around on the pitching rubber can help with location.

Everything is structured. No time just to play and learn.

I tell my kids that game time is where the players show the coaches what they've learned, and where the coaches see what needs to be worked on.




Like my Dad always said "The stove is hot. I'm only telling you once. And if you touch it, I bet you'll only touch it once."

In the MLB, who do you think is scouting the hitters? Coaches put together a gameplan on how to approach each hitter. So to say coaches in the MLB don't call a game is wrong.

Well it sounds like I'm a control freak.

[shake-n-bake]

My observation, which may or may not be the case everywhere, is that youth coaches that have some pitching knowledge, something worth teaching, more often than not spend a little time talking with their pitcher(s) before and during games. They also spend enough time in practice getting an accurate assessment of each kids ability/strengths/weaknesses, and ensuring they and the pitchers are continually on the same page.

This I think is the issue to me. When a coach isn't teaching a kid because they don't have anything of value to pass on, or my personal favorite - treating what to throw as being on a need to know basis, then calling the pitches is a "have to" type thing for them.

The coach who's done a little more in the time since the first practice to the 1-1 count in the bottom of the 3rd of the 14th game of the season doesn't "have to" call the next pitch.

My problem is with the first guy. If the second guy wants to call pitches or make a trip to the mound and talk about a certain critical point in the game and now he'd like to steer the ship for awhile - fine.

[mudvnine]

Our goal was 65% strikes this year at 10U. As a team we are about 77% for our 3 starters. That is pretty good. If we are ahead in the count, or if we are even and the command is good I might try inside or outside stuff.

No, that is phenomenal for any level . . . let alone 10 y/o's. At the HS level, pitchers at the 60% mark are doing well, and those at the 65% level for the season are outstanding.

Are you keeping stats for your numbers or is the 77% mark just an estimate. If you are actually tracking the pitches, then I would be interested in knowing your team's K/BB, BB/9, and K/9 season stats, they must be remarkable . . . also, what is your team's win percentage with pitches throwing that well at that age? :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[scorekeeper]

Wow! I had no idea this was such a touchy subject. My only take was that our pitching coach tries to make all of the kids throw like his. We have a great capable catcher, and I just thought like..here you go Johnny this is what Tommy can throw work the batters be smart, and don't hang one. If this doesn't work put in a new kid. Kinda takes the fun out of learning. Maybe this is just a way for daddy ball to keep control?

;)
It’s a touchy subject because you’re stickin’ you nose into the realms of kings and dictators, and neither of those groups take to having their actions being questioned very well.

You’re right about there being a definite tendency of coaches who call pitches to treat the Pitchers as clones. That doesn’t’ make them bad guys or stupid, but it happens.

[JRH11]

At what point do the kids learn on their own how to call a game?

[scorekeeper]

Why should an 11 or 12 year old call pitches when they don't call pitches when they go up through the ranks. I was at a D-1 game the other night and not 1 kid called their own game. None of the coaches had a kid on either of those teams, so I don't think daddy ball had anything to do with it.

While what you note is true in general, don’t for one second believe every team at every level calls pitches from the dugout! A very big reason pitches are called from the dugout, is because the P’s and the C’s they get don’t know how to do it for themselves!

I can name a pitcher who was only average when pitches were called for him all during his pre-college career, but was totally lights out when the game was called on the field. The 1st major D1 college he attended promised him the pitches would be called on the field when he pitch, but the coach reneged, and his Fr season was pretty much average or below.

When his ship wasn’t renewed, he intended to go to the local state university, but was instead sought out by another major D1 school that also promised him the same thing. The result was dramatic. The 1st year he led them to the CWS, and the next he was conference pitcher of the year, and got drafted in the supplemental. He still pitches in the ML today.

If it was up to the kids they would throw all kinds of crazy stuff like a knuckle curve they just leared from Uncle Rico, or throw a breaking pitch in the dirt that gets through for the winning run. Even 20 straight curve balls from an 11 year old which I've seen on many occasions.

You’re ASSUMING all kids would do that because you saw it happen maybe once or twice. My kid didn’t do it, and neither did any of the kids on any of his 4 LLI Majors teams!

Coaches should know their staff and should make adjustments accordingly. IMO, if kids want to learn to playing real baseball, pitchers need to learn to have the game called for them.

The operative word there is SHOULD!

You’re correct. If a pitcher wants to pitch much beyond 1st year of kid pitch, s/he has to learn to have the game called for her/him. But that game should be called on the field rather than from 60’ away and 90 degrees off center from the pitcher!:rant:

[scorekeeper]

Our goal was 65% strikes this year at 10U. As a team we are about 77% for our 3 starters. That is pretty good. If we are ahead in the count, or if we are even and the command is good I might try inside or outside stuff.

WOWSERS! I’ve never scored for any pitcher at any level who could throw more than 70% for more than 1 or 2 appearances, and I’ve scored and tracked pitches for a heck of a lot of pitchers in the last 20 years.

Assuming what you’re saying to be true, I bow to the master.

:bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:

[skipper5]

At 11 years old...right down the middle would be great pitching and I would never tell a 11 year old pitcher not to throw down the middle...strikes are more important at that age...playing with batters is 12 or 13 year olds and better and this coming from a 12u travel coach...we seldom place our pitches and only throw 2 and 4 seams and changeups...No curves...I tell them throw strikes and let the defense work....

Amen, brother.

[scorekeeper]

… If the coach calls a pitch and the pitcher shakes it off, it's on him. If a pitcher misses a location, it's on the pitcher. This is true in the MLB. If it's good for them, why would we put it in the hands of an 11y/o to make the right choice?…

Please tell us where you got the idea that pitches are called in the dugouts of all MLB teams for all MLB pitchers.

[scorekeeper]

There are obviously differing philosophies both on what 11-12 year old batteries are capable of doing in terms of calling pitches and the best way to impart game knowledge. I know I've read some things that will cause me to re-think how (if?) I approach calling pitches during games by what I've read on this post….

Here’s exactly where people who make the foolish mistake of comparing amateurs and low pros to ML players. ML teams have the distinct luxury of tons of data on the teams they play against. There’s absolutely no other level, even AAA, that has what they have at the ML level.

Pitchers can study the other players, from what they eat for breakfast, to what they’re tendency is on a Low/IS slider from a right hander who releases the ball at 5’2” off the ground! At levels lower than that, especially on the small fields, not only don’t players get seen more than a dozen or so times a season, none of them keep the kind of records that would allow them to have access to valid data even if they did see the players a lot!

For that reason, the coaches aren’t really in any better position to call pitches, and in fact are in a worse position because they can’t see what the pitches are doing!

[ctandc]

In the MLB, who do you think is scouting the hitters? Coaches put together a gameplan on how to approach each hitter. So to say coaches in the MLB don't call a game is wrong.

Well it sounds like I'm a control freak.


Actually it is wrong. If the catcher is a rookie, the pitching coach and pitcher will talk to him about hitters. If the pitcher is a rookie, the catcher and vet pitchers will work with him.

The coaches will go over "game plans" with pitchers / catchers...but that's about it. MUCH of this process is dependent on the pitcher.

[wogdoggy]

Here’s exactly where people who make the foolish mistake of comparing amateurs and low pros to ML players. ML teams have the distinct luxury of tons of data on the teams they play against. There’s absolutely no other level, even AAA, that has what they have at the ML level.

Pitchers can study the other players, from what they eat for breakfast, to what they’re tendency is on a Low/IS slider from a right hander who releases the ball at 5’2” off the ground! At levels lower than that, especially on the small fields, not only don’t players get seen more than a dozen or so times a season, none of them keep the kind of records that would allow them to have access to valid data even if they did see the players a lot!

For that reason, the coaches aren’t really in any better position to call pitches, and in fact are in a worse position because they can’t see what the pitches are doing!


good post,,every pitcher catcher in the bigs studies everyone's tendecies,scatter hit charts everyting is available..

[scorekeeper]

In the MLB, who do you think is scouting the hitters?

And which hitters do you think they’re scouting?

Coaches put together a gameplan on how to approach each hitter. So to say coaches in the MLB don't call a game is wrong.

Coaches help put together a game plan, but by no means are they the ones depended on for it! The game isn’t about the coaches, any more than its about the umpires, the scorekeeper, the field maintenance crew, or the hot dog vendor! The game could be played quite well with absolutely no coaches what-so-ever, but never without players

Well it sounds like I'm a control freak.

No one’s said or even implied that as far as I’ve seen. All I’ve seen is folks trying to get coaches like you to back off just a bit, and allow the players to play the game.

[scorekeeper]

good post,,every pitcher catcher in the bigs studies everyone's tendecies,scatter hit charts everyting is available..

Thanx.

You’re post reminded me of something, In case you didn’t know, I decided to start doing the scatter charts again for the teams I score.

If you want to take a look, its at http://www.infosports.com/scorekeeper/ under Jr Legion Batting and Pitching Scatter. Its only been 9 games, so they’re not telling a whole lot yet, but its comin’ around. ;)

The reason I’m commenting on them is, as neat as they are to look at, they aren’t even in the same ball park as far as complexity or depth of data that the ML use in their scatter charts, but they are vastly superior to what most teams at the college level and below see.

[AgentX]

Having watched almost all of the players in our rec league over the years, and having pitched to many of them in the cages, I've got a pretty good idea about what their individual weaknesses are and how to get them out.

But the game is the pitcher's to pitch. I'll discuss some strategies for stronger players on the opposing team before a game, but I think it's important for the choices of what to throw to be worked out between 1 and 2.

It's also important after the game to ask why choices were made and what worked or didn't work. From the "debriefings," I get to learn how much they've actually learned about playing the game from the game itself.

You can't get that if you call pitches from the dugout.

[rkbenn]

Actually it is wrong. If the catcher is a rookie, the pitching coach and pitcher will talk to him about hitters. If the pitcher is a rookie, the catcher and vet pitchers will work with him.

The coaches will go over "game plans" with pitchers / catchers...but that's about it. MUCH of this process is dependent on the pitcher.

Of course. If you are unfamiliar with a hitter, I would be willing to guess, pitch calls would come from the dugout.. In the division they have faced these guys so many times they should know, or have a plan to go after them. There's got to be coach influence in this call. So directly or indirectly coaches call the game. Sure there is player involvement, it would be stupid to say there was not.

I just don't think kids should call a game...just my opinion. I

[rkbenn]

And which hitters do you think they’re scouting?



Coaches help put together a game plan, but by no means are they the ones depended on for it! The game isn’t about the coaches, any more than its about the umpires, the scorekeeper, the field maintenance crew, or the hot dog vendor! The game could be played quite well with absolutely no coaches what-so-ever, but never without players



No one’s said or even implied that as far as I’ve seen. All I’ve seen is folks trying to get coaches like you to back off just a bit, and allow the players to play the game.

So it is your impression I don't allow them to play the game because I call pitches? How many pitches do you think I call? I didn't go in depth on how many or when. Would you like to ask me that? Maybe you would have another impression of me if we went into more detail.

Do you think I send a sign to the catcher on each pitch, or in key situations. In most situations I want just want the kid to throw a strike at that age.

[bbb3601]

Where would we be without scorekeeper to keep us straight. This thread has provided me with a vast amount of information, and confirmed alot of personal feelings. Thank you


And which hitters do you think they’re scouting?



Coaches help put together a game plan, but by no means are they the ones depended on for it! The game isn’t about the coaches, any more than its about the umpires, the scorekeeper, the field maintenance crew, or the hot dog vendor! The game could be played quite well with absolutely no coaches what-so-ever, but never without players



No one’s said or even implied that as far as I’ve seen. All I’ve seen is folks trying to get coaches like you to back off just a bit, and allow the players to play the game.

[LAball]

I think that there are way too many pitchers and catchers that get to high school and don't know how to call a game. My 12 year old guys do their own thing. They make mistakes, and I ask them later why they think they made a mistake, and what should they have done. How are these kids supposed to learn if every pitch is called for them?

I average calling for a few pitches a game. I also allow my pitchers to shake me off, but regardless of outcome, they have to explain WHY they shook me off. Good ballplayers learn the game and how to think on their feet.

Just my lowly 2 cents.

Agree. How is the pitcher going to learn about batters if someone else is going to call for them? Im talking for 11U, 2-4 seam and change up. I let my 10 yo son call his pitches and once he threw a change up in the dirt, the batter looked foolish swing for it. My son was very happy and so was I. One problem is that he can get a bit crazy with too many change ups and balls. If that happens, ill step in and just tell him to throw strikes.

plus my 2 cents = $0.04

[bbb3601]

Ok now I will try this. Mind you this is what I see on our team so it doesn't mean it happens on every team. Our so called pitching coach that calls these pitch's (including location which was my main argument) doesn't even catch the bell pens at practice another coach does. So my question is IF a catcher/pitcher calls their own game should the catcher(s) catch the bull pens..... or does it matter?

[Jake Patterson]

At what point do the kids learn on their own how to call a game?We called all our HS games, as did most coaches we opposed...
Jake

[wogdoggy]

Thanx.

You’re post reminded me of something, In case you didn’t know, I decided to start doing the scatter charts again for the teams I score.

If you want to take a look, its at http://www.infosports.com/scorekeeper/ under Jr Legion Batting and Pitching Scatter. Its only been 9 games, so they’re not telling a whole lot yet, but its comin’ around. ;)

The reason I’m commenting on them is, as neat as they are to look at, they aren’t even in the same ball park as far as complexity or depth of data that the ML use in their scatter charts, but they are vastly superior to what most teams at the college level and below see.



we had a very good 'momma' scorekeeper..every time the oppsing batter would come up she'd yell "last one to you ben before that to you freddy"..

i think it helped

[wogdoggy]

Having watched almost all of the players in our rec league over the years, and having pitched to many of them in the cages, I've got a pretty good idea about what their individual weaknesses are and how to get them out.

But the game is the pitcher's to pitch. I'll discuss some strategies for stronger players on the opposing team before a game, but I think it's important for the choices of what to throw to be worked out between 1 and 2.

It's also important after the game to ask why choices were made and what worked or didn't work. From the "debriefings," I get to learn how much they've actually learned about playing the game from the game itself.

You can't get that if you call pitches from the dugout.

good post..after throwin bp to most of the kids you can certainly tell..the fun thing i would do would be ask junior how he would attempt to get Joey out? what would you start out danny with..where do you think johnny's weak spot is? thats how they learn

[AgentX]

good post..after throwin bp to most of the kids you can certainly tell..the fun thing i would do would be ask junior how he would attempt to get Joey out? what would you start out danny with..where do you think johnny's weak spot is? thats how they learn

Absolutely.

When you ask those questions, the surprising thing is seeing how much they already know. Even the kids who don't pitch much seem to have picked up scouting reports from teammates. From what I've seen, their info was often better than mine!

[Rufus67]

Ok now I will try this. Mind you this is what I see on our team so it doesn't mean it happens on every team. Our so called pitching coach that calls these pitch's (including location which was my main argument) doesn't even catch the bell pens at practice another coach does. So my question is IF a catcher/pitcher calls their own game should the catcher(s) catch the bull pens..... or does it matter?

Triple B
I'm not sure this matters too much if the pitching coach or another coach catches the bullpens, but wasting two coaches to do bullpens is not a good use of time or resources. I would have the catchers catching the bullpens (they can also work on their technique such as two strike/runner on set position, blocking balls, receiving pitches properly, etc.). This does allow time for the battery to develop a familiarity with each other and what they are/aren't capable of. Your mileage may vary.

What are the catchers doing while the bullpens are being thrown?

[bbb3601]

They will be involved in another station. Usually during that time (when the pitchers start to throw) they are involved in the various hitting stations. This part we do well or I think so. Our field time is limited, but we have real nice equipment. We have two pop up screens for soft toss one side one front. We have two tee stations 1 into fence one into grass field., We have a crusher machine for wiffles. ( Yeah I know how some of you feel about wiffles), and we have a zooka machine for live bp with a hit stick going for on deck batter. All stations are monitored by a coach or parent to make sure things are done correctly. We have one primary catcher, and two others that fill in or take over for obvious reasons. I guess my point was if the guy calling the pitch has never caught said pitcher..how does he know what the kid can really do because he doesn't track called pitch results so how do you know what is working best?

[scorekeeper]

…I guess my point was if the guy calling the pitch has never caught said pitcher..how does he know what the kid can really do because he doesn't track called pitch results so how do you know what is working best?

That sounds like what I’ve been talking and writing about for a looooong time, but it more often than not falls on deaf ears! Having been a C, I can say with no doubt what-so-ever, just watching a P throw doesn’t give you a very good idea about how his pitches move, his accuracy, or his command of the various pitches he throws.

[scorekeeper]

we had a very good 'momma' scorekeeper..every time the oppsing batter would come up she'd yell "last one to you ben before that to you freddy"..

i think it helped

S’funny how different people act differently. In all the years I’ve kept score, I’ve never, at least that I remember, hollered anything to any player, other than to compliment them on something extraordinary they’d done. But that’s just me.

But I do have some thoughts about the particular thing this gal yells. Let’s look at reality. What are the chances that where and how a ball was hit in a player’s last PA will happen again? Think about it. ;)

[wogdoggy]

S’funny how different people act differently. In all the years I’ve kept score, I’ve never, at least that I remember, hollered anything to any player, other than to compliment them on something extraordinary they’d done. But that’s just me.

But I do have some thoughts about the particular thing this gal yells. Let’s look at reality. What are the chances that where and how a ball was hit in a player’s last PA will happen again? Think about it. ;)

well honestly it depends on pitch location BUT i will say this,,when i take my boy to the park to hit it seems like a good majority of the balls are hit NEAR the same spot..he's either straight left field or right center..I do believe you have some pure pull hitters out there...

look at scatter charts..if there wasnt a tendency why would you use them ?

[scorekeeper]

So it is your impression I don't allow them to play the game because I call pitches?

No. Its my impression that by calling pitches, you restrict the way they play, retard their learning process, and make it less fun as well as less rewarding.

How many pitches do you think I call? I didn't go in depth on how many or when. Would you like to ask me that? Maybe you would have another impression of me if we went into more detail.

I don’t know the percentage you call, but since I didn’t see anything that indicated anything other than all pitches, what choice did I have other than to ASSUME you called them all, or at least the vast vast majority.

My impression of you wouldn’t likely change, because in order to do that you’d have to be arguing a different strategy than what you have been. However, in my mind, I think that if you’re acting differently than what you’re letting on, you should definitely put that in your posts. People who read them have no way to evaluate anything other than what you convey to them in a post.

Do you think I send a sign to the catcher on each pitch, or in key situations. In most situations I want just want the kid to throw a strike at that age.

Now don’t get all huffy here. I’m gonna show you how easy it is to get the wrong idea about a post.

When you wrote: Do you think I send a sign to the catcher on each pitch, or in key situations, does it mean you’re asking if I think you’re sending in signs on every pitch, or ONLY in key situations. By not using the word “ONLY”, what you wrote might be taken to mean on each pitch and key situation, with the two things meaning something different. There are lots of coaches who send in signals about picks, or plays other than pitches and pitch locations.

If you’re saying you don’t call most pitches and that your real goal is just to have the kid throw a strike, I’m glad. But that’s definitely not the impression I got from reading your posts.

[AgentX]

well honestly it depends on pitch location BUT i will say this,,when i take my boy to the park to hit it seems like a good majority of the balls are hit NEAR the same spot..he's either straight left field or right center..I do believe you have some pure pull hitters out there...

look at scatter charts..if there wasnt a tendency why would you use them ?

Also depends upon the level of the hitter, and whether he's facing the same pitcher he faced in previous ABs.

[scorekeeper]

well honestly it depends on pitch location BUT i will say this,,when i take my boy to the park to hit it seems like a good majority of the balls are hit NEAR the same spot..he's either straight left field or right center..I do believe you have some pure pull hitters out there...

look at scatter charts..if there wasnt a tendency why would you use them ?

Not just pitch location though. Pitch type, pitch speed, the situation, and more importantly, the pitcher have a lot to do with where the ball’s hit.

Of course your boy will hit the majority of balls you throw him in a BP situation to the game general place. But you’re not trying to make him do a bad job of hitting. In fact, you’re trying to do just the opposite. What would happen to that scatter chart of your boy at BP, if you started trying to make him do badly, or if a pitcher throwing of the opposite hand threw his BP?

Heck, maybe I’m totally in error thinking that the chances of a specific hitter hitting a ball in virtually the same place in successive PA’s is so low there’s really no sense in worrying a great deal about it, but the scoresheets I have tell me I’m right.

My point isn’t to say what that lady is doing is wrong or hurts anything, but I can’t see how it helps anything either, other than to make that one player more attentive. But doing that might make a player on the other side of the field less attentive, and chances are, the ball won’t be hit at the player who it was hit to last time, but rather to someone else.

So, rather than say anything, to me keeping quiet is the best thing to do. Like I said, its just my personal preference.

[wogdoggy]

Not just pitch location though. Pitch type, pitch speed, the situation, and more importantly, the pitcher have a lot to do with where the ball’s hit.

Of course your boy will hit the majority of balls you throw him in a BP situation to the game general place. But you’re not trying to make him do a bad job of hitting. In fact, you’re trying to do just the opposite. What would happen to that scatter chart of your boy at BP, if you started trying to make him do badly, or if a pitcher throwing of the opposite hand threw his BP?

Heck, maybe I’m totally in error thinking that the chances of a specific hitter hitting a ball in virtually the same place in successive PA’s is so low there’s really no sense in worrying a great deal about it, but the scoresheets I have tell me I’m right.

My point isn’t to say what that lady is doing is wrong or hurts anything, but I can’t see how it helps anything either, other than to make that one player more attentive. But doing that might make a player on the other side of the field less attentive, and chances are, the ball won’t be hit at the player who it was hit to last time, but rather to someone else.

So, rather than say anything, to me keeping quiet is the best thing to do. Like I said, its just my personal preference.



Of course your boy will hit the majority of balls you throw him in a BP situation to the game general place. But you’re not trying to make him do a bad job of hitting. In fact, you’re trying to do just the opposite. What would happen to that scatter chart of your boy at BP, if you started trying to make him do badly, or if a pitcher throwing of the opposite hand threw his BP?



then what you are telling me in an off beat way IS scatter charts mean nothing?

when you look at a scatter chart don't you honestly see more balls hit to an area than another,,the bigger the sample the better of evaulation of course BUT there must be a pattern present otherwise what good would they be???

[scorekeeper]

then what you are telling me in an off beat way IS scatter charts mean nothing?

Absolutely not! Scatter charts are wonderful tools! What I’m saying is, the chances that a specific hitter will hit a ball in the same place as his last plate appearance, is so small, it isn’t worth saying anything to the players.

You said your SK would yell to the players that the batter had been hit to them in previous plate appearances. All I’m saying is, IMHO, that does so little good, that it might actually be a negative if the other players let down even a little. There’s something else too, but it’s a bit more esoteric.

Depending on the situation, it may well be that the plan is to pitch that batter so he’ll more likely hit the ball to a general area on the field. FI, if a batter has pulled a hard shot to the fence in one PA, it might be wise to pitch him so he’ll either roll over or hit to his weak side. Or maybe the last time he was up there was no one on and you just wanted outs, so he was pitched pretty much up to get a pop up or fly ball, but this time the go ahead runner is on 3rd and a fly ball would score him, so he’s being pitched for a ground ball.

I honestly wasn’t knocking the lady or scatter charts. You said you thought it helped to holler that stuff out, but in my experience, the best thing to do is to just let the coaches and the players take care of what goes on on the field. This is one of those things that baseball dogma says helps, but there’s absolutely no proof that its true. In fact, what proof there is, is very much to the contrary.

when you look at a scatter chart don't you honestly see more balls hit to an area than another,,the bigger the sample the better of evaulation of course BUT there must be a pattern present otherwise what good would they be???

Yes! Of course that’s true. But those scatter charts aren’t made up from only one game. Chances are, a particular batter will hit a 75-85mph fast ball over the plate and at the belt to the same general area on the field. I.e., to the left, right or middle 3rd. But what if the pitcher who threw to him in the 1st 2 PA’s was a LHP who threw junk, and now there’s a RHB who throws BeeBee’s?

Again. I wasn’t trying to denigrate the lady at all! I just looked at last night’s game, and there was only 1 time when the same batter hit the ball in the same area in successive plate appearances, and that was 2 fly balls to right from our SS. One batting left handed, and one right.

[wogdoggy]

Absolutely not! Scatter charts are wonderful tools! What I’m saying is, the chances that a specific hitter will hit a ball in the same place as his last plate appearance, is so small, it isn’t worth saying anything to the players.

You said your SK would yell to the players that the batter had been hit to them in previous plate appearances. All I’m saying is, IMHO, that does so little good, that it might actually be a negative if the other players let down even a little. There’s something else too, but it’s a bit more esoteric.

Depending on the situation, it may well be that the plan is to pitch that batter so he’ll more likely hit the ball to a general area on the field. FI, if a batter has pulled a hard shot to the fence in one PA, it might be wise to pitch him so he’ll either roll over or hit to his weak side. Or maybe the last time he was up there was no one on and you just wanted outs, so he was pitched pretty much up to get a pop up or fly ball, but this time the go ahead runner is on 3rd and a fly ball would score him, so he’s being pitched for a ground ball.

I honestly wasn’t knocking the lady or scatter charts. You said you thought it helped to holler that stuff out, but in my experience, the best thing to do is to just let the coaches and the players take care of what goes on on the field. This is one of those things that baseball dogma says helps, but there’s absolutely no proof that its true. In fact, what proof there is, is very much to the contrary.



Yes! Of course that’s true. But those scatter charts aren’t made up from only one game. Chances are, a particular batter will hit a 75-85mph fast ball over the plate and at the belt to the same general area on the field. I.e., to the left, right or middle 3rd. But what if the pitcher who threw to him in the 1st 2 PA’s was a LHP who threw junk, and now there’s a RHB who throws BeeBee’s?

Again. I wasn’t trying to denigrate the lady at all! I just looked at last night’s game, and there was only 1 time when the same batter hit the ball in the same area in successive plate appearances, and that was 2 fly balls to right from our SS. One batting left handed, and one right.



Again. I wasn’t trying to denigrate the lady at all!


Of course I know that SK..what we would do is warn the right side of the field to be ready we knew the kid hit it there before and we knew we were TRYING to come in with a low outside change

[scorekeeper]

Of course I know that SK..what we would do is warn the right side of the field to be ready we knew the kid hit it there before and we knew we were TRYING to come in with a low outside change

I guess I’ve just been so many times around this block, I’m seein’ boogymen behind every tree. What you described originally, is something I’ll bet I’ve heard 10,000 times if I’ve heard once, and I just wanted to make sure that if someone was gonna do it, they should know it was a pretty useless thing to do. But what you described above is more like a team defensive game plan, that there’s little chance an SK would be aware of.

Mebbe I’ve been at this too long. ;)