1948 Best of Baseball Election [Archive]

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jalbright

05-23-2009, 06:22 AM

This is our thirteenth election in this project. The entire rules follow.

This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EDT June 5, 2009.

The prior election, and the ballots of the 1947 voters, are in this thread (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90107)

jalbright

05-23-2009, 06:22 AM

Rules

1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.

11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration.

14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

20) I reserve the right to hold a Negro League special election in 2000 if we don't have a sufficient number in that category by then. These elections probably will be limited to voters I feel are appropriately versed on the group of players to be considered. I do wish to only use this as a last resort, however, and only to ensure that this group received what I regard as at least adequate bare minimum representation. I do not plan on sharing with you what I consider to meet those bare minimum standards, but I think that the number I am thinking of are well below the number of candidates that well informed observers believe are well qualified candidates from that group.

21) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

22) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread

jalbright

05-23-2009, 06:25 AM

The players who become eligible in 1948 are:

Bell , Cool Papa
Cochrane , Mickey
Davis , Curt
Gehringer , Charlie
Haas , Mule
Hafey , Chick
Herman , Babe
Hubbell , Carl
Lazzeri , Tony
Mackey , Biz
Monroe , Bill
Thevenow , Tommy
Waner , Paul

The contributors who become eligible in 1948 are:

Carrigan , Bill
Harridge , Willie
Posey , Cum

jalbright

05-23-2009, 06:27 AM

The 1947 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:

Player…………… votes points
Wilson, Jud 12 90
Sisler , George 13 86
Clarke , Fred 10 84
Magee , Sherry 12 72
Vance , Dazzy 13 70
Collins , Jimmy 9 65
Radbourn , C 7 43
Wheat , Zack 8 43
Jackson , Joe 4 42
Traynor , Pie 6 40
Keeler , Willie 5 29
Lyons , Ted 5 28
Bennett , C 4 25
Johnson , HR 3 25
Start , Joe 3 25
Groh , Heinie 4 23
Stovey , Harry 4 22
Grant , Frank 4 21
Sutton , Ezra 2 18
Thompson , S 2 18
Waddell , Rube 4 16
Terry , Bill 3 14
Carey , Max 2 13
Flick , Elmer 2 12
Caruthers , B 2 11
Maranville , R 2 11
Averill, Earl 3 10
Pearce , D 2 10
McPhee , Bid 2 9
Coveleski , S 3 8
Galvin , Pud 3 8
McGinnity , Joe 3 8
Chance , Frank 1 7
Gore , George 1 7
Hill , Pete….... 2 7
Roush , Edd 1 7
Bresnahan , R 2 6
McInnis, Stuffy 1 6
Pennock, Herb 2 6
Rixey , Eppa 1 4
Tinker, Joe 1 4
Wilson , Hack 1 4
Evers , Johnny 1 3
Glasscock , J 1 3
Grimes , B 1 3
Welch , Mickey 1 3
Willis , Vic 1 3
Bottomley , Jim 1 2
Browning , Pete 1 2
Duffy , Hugh 2 2
Jennings , H 1 2
Arlett, Buzz 1 1
Faber , Red 1 1

The 1947 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:

Contributors……….. votes points
Rickey, Branch 11 37
Barrow , Ed 10 31
Cartwright , A 7 30
Landis , K 8 25
Reach , A. J. 9 20
Commiskey , C 5 13
Taylor , C. I. 2 10
Hanlon , Ned 3 9
Spink, Albert 2 8
Pearce, Dickey 2 6
Caylor , O. P. 1 4
Clarke , Fred 1 4
Dunn , Jack 1 3
Ruppert , Jacob 1 3
Selee , Frank 2 3
Doubleday , A 1 2
Rice, Grantland 1 2
Conlan , C 1 1
Connolly , Tom 1 1
Huggins , M 1 1

I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.

jalbright

05-23-2009, 06:31 AM

Members of the Best of Baseball Hall

Players

Pete Alexander
Cap Anson
Frank Baker
Ross Barnes
Dan Brouthers
Mordecai Brown
Jesse Burkett
Oscar Charleston
John Clarkson
Ty Cobb
Eddie Collins
Roger Connor
Sam Crawford
Bill Dahlen
George Davis
Ed Delahanty
Buck Ewing
Frankie Frisch
Lou Gehrig
Goose Goslin
Lefty Grove
Billy Hamilton
Gabby Hartnett
Harry Heilmann
Paul Hines
Rogers Hornsby
Walter Johnson
Tim Keefe
King Kelly
Nap LaJoie
Pop Lloyd
Christy Mathewson
Kid Nichols
Jim O'Rourke
Eddie Plank
Bullet Joe Rogan
Amos Rusie
Babe Ruth
Louis Santop
Al Simmons
Tris Speaker
Turkey Stearnes
Mule Suttles
Cristobal Torriente
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh
John M. Ward
Deacon White
Smoky Joe Williams
George Wright
Cy Young

Contributors

Doc Adams
Henry Chadwick
Jim Creighton
Rube Foster
William Hulbert
Ban Johnson
Bill Klem
Connie Mack
John McGraw
Francis Richter
Al Spalding
Harry Wright

jalbright

05-23-2009, 06:36 AM

The complete list of eligible players:

Adams , Babe
Adams , Sparky
Altrock , Nick
Archer , Jimmy
Arlett , Buzz
Austin , Jimmy
Averill , Earl
Bancroft , Dave
Barry , Jack
Battin , Joe
Beaumont , Ginger
Beckley , Jake
Beckwith , John
Bell , Cool Papa
Bender , Chief
Bennett , Charlie
Benton , Larry
Berg , Moe
Bergen , Marty
Berry , Charlie
Bigbee , Carson
Bishop , Max
Blades , Ray
Blue , Lu
Bluege , Ossie
Bodie , Ping
Boley , Joe
Bond , Tommy
Bottomley , Jim
Bradley , Bill
Breitenstein , Ted
Bresnahan , Roger
Browning , Pete
Burns , George J.
Bush , Joe
Bush , Donie
Bush , Guy
Cadore , Leon
Camnitz , Howie
Carey , Max
Carrigan , Bill
Caruthers , Bob
Chance , Frank
Chapman , Ray
Chase , Hal
Chesbro , Jack
Childs , Cupid
Cicotte , Eddie
Clark , Watty
Clarke , Fred
Coakley , Andy
Cochrane , Mickey
Collins , Jimmy
Collins , Shano
Combs , Earle
Conroy , Wid
Coombs , Jack
Cooper , Andy
Cooper , Wilbur
Coveleski , Stan
Crandall , Doc
Cravath , Gavvy
Creighton , Jim
Criger , Lou
Critz , Hughie
Cross , Lave
Crowder , Al
Cruise , Walt
Cummings , Candy
Cuyler , Kiki
Daubert , Jake
Davis , Curt
Davis , Harry
Dinneen , Bill
Doak , Bill
Donlin , Mike
Donovan , Bill
Dooin , Red
Doyle , Jack
Doyle , Larry
Duffy , Hugh
Dugan , Joe
Dunlap , Fred
Dykes , Jimmy
Earnshaw , George
Ehmke , Howard
Elberfeld , Kid
Elliott , Jumbo
Ens , Jewel
Evers , Johnny
Faber , Red
Falkenberg , Cy
Fitzsimmons , Freddie
Fletcher , Art
Flick , Elmer
Fonseca , Lew
Foster , Eddie
Fraser , Chick
Galvin , Pud
Gehringer , Charlie
Glasscock , Jack
Gleason , Kid
Gonzalez , Mike
Gore , George
Gowdy , Hank
Grant , Eddie
Grant , Frank
Grantham , George
Griffith , Clark
Grimes , Burleigh
Grimm , Charlie
Groh , Heinie
Haas , Mule
Hafey , Chick
Hahn , Noodles
Haines , Jesse
Hallahan , Bill
Hargrave , Bubbles
Harris , Bucky
Herman , Babe
Herzog , Buck
Hill , Pete
Hinchman , Bill
Hooper , Harry
Hoyt , Waite
Hubbell , Carl
Huggins , Miller
Irwin , Charlie
Jackman , Will
Jackson , Joe
Jennings , Hughie
Johnson , Home Run
Johnson , Judy
Jones , Charley
Jones , Fielder
Jones , Sam P.
Jordan , Tim
Joss , Addie
Judge , Joe
Kamm , Willie
Keeler , Willie
Kelley , Joe
Kerr , Dickie
Killefer , Bill
Kilroy , Matt
Kling , Johnny
Knabe , Otto
Kremer , Ray
Lange , Bill
Larkin , Henry
Latham , Arlie
Lazzeri , Tony
Leach , Freddy
Leach , Tommy
Leever , Sam
Lewis , Duffy
Lobert , Hans
Long , Herman
Lowe , Bobby
Lucas , Red
Lundy , Dick
Luque , Dolf
Lyons , Denny
Lyons , Ted
Mackey , Biz
Magee , Sherry
Manush , Heinie
Maranville , Rabbit
Marberry , Firpo
Marquard , Rube
Mathews , Bobby
Mays , Carl
McAleer , Jimmy
McCarthy , Tommy
McCormick , Jim
McGinnity , Joe
McGowan , Bill
McInnis , Stuffy
McLean , Larry
McManus , Marty
McPhee , Bid
McVey , Cal
Meadows , Lee
Mendez , Jose
Meusel , Bob
Milan , Clyde
Miller , Bing
Miller , Dots
Miller , Hack
Monroe , Bill
Moore , Dobie
Moran , Pat
Mostil , Johnny
Mullane , Tony
Murphy , Danny
Murray , Red
Nehf , Art
O'Doul , Lefty
Oeschger , Joe
O'Farrell , Bob
O'Leary , Charlie
Oms , Alejandro
O'Neill , Steve
O'Neill , Tip
Orr , Dave
Pabor , Charlie
Paskert , Dode
Pearce , Dickey
Peckinpaugh , Roger
Peitz , Heinie
Pennock , Herb
Perdue , Hub
Perkins , Cy
Phillippe , Deacon
Pike , Lip
Pipp , Wally
Poles , Spotswood
Pruett , Hub
Quinn , Jack
Radbourn , Charlie
Raymond , Bugs
Redding , Dick
Remsen , Jack
Rice , Sam
Richardson , Hardy
Ring , Jimmy
Ritchey , Claude
Rixey , Eppa
Robertson , Dave
Rommel , Eddie
Root , Charlie
Roush , Edd
Rucker , Nap
Rudolph , Dick
Ruel , Muddy
Ryan , Jimmy
Schacht , Al
Schaefer , Germany
Schalk , Ray
Schang , Wally
Schreckengost , Ossie
Schulte , Frank
Scott , Everett
Scott , Jack
Severeid , Hank
Sewell , Joe
Sewell , Luke
Seymour , Cy
Sheckard , Jimmy
Sherdel , Bill
Shocker , Urban
Sisler , George
Smith , Earl
Smith , Sherry
Sparks , Tully
Stahl , Jake
Start , Joe
Steinfeldt , Harry
Stephenson , Riggs
Stovey , Harry
Street , Gabby
Sukeforth , Clyde
Sutton , Ezra
Sweeney , Bill
Tannehill , Jesse
Taylor , Ben
Tenney , Fred
Terry , Bill
Thevenow , Tommy
Thomas , Ira
Thompson , Sam
Tiernan , Mike
Tinker , Joe
Toney , Fred
Traynor , Pie
Turner , Terry
Uhle , George
Van Haltren , George
Vance , Dazzy
Veach , Bobby
Waddell , Rube
Walberg , Rube
Wallace , Bobby
Wambsganss , Bill
Waner , Paul
Warfield , Frank
Welch , Mickey
Wheat , Zack
White , Sol
White , Will
Whitehill , Earl
Williams , Cy
Williams , Ken
Williamson , Ned
Willis , Vic
Wilson , Hack
Wilson , Jimmie
Wilson , Jud
Witt , Whitey
Wood , Joe
Wright , Glenn
Yerkes , Steve
Youngs , Ross
Zachary , Tom
Zimmer , Chief

The complete list of eligible contributors:

Abe , Iso
Bancroft , Frank
Barrow , Ed
Bolden, Ed
Bulkely , Morgan
Carrigan, Bill
Cartwright , Alexander
Caylor , O. P.
Chance , Frank
Clarke , Fred
Commiskey , Charlie
Conlan , Charles
Connolly , Tom
Cooper , Andy
Cummings , Candy
Dinneen , Bill
Doubleday , Abner
Dreyfuss , Barney
Dunn , Jack
Elias , Al Munro
Foster , John B.
Fullerton , Hugh
Gleason , Kid
Griffith , Clark
Hanlon , Ned
Harridge, Willie
Hillerich , John
Huggins , Miller
Jennings , Hughie
Krichell, Paul
Landis , Kenesaw
Lardner , Ring
Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
McCarthy , Tommy
Mendez , Jose
Mills , A. G.
Moran , Pat
Mutrie , Jim
Navin , Frank
Norworth, Jack
Osborn , Frank
Posey, Cum
Reach , A. J.
Rice, Grantland
Rickey, Branch
Robinson , Wilbert
Ruppert , Jacob
Selee , Frank
Shibe , Ben
Spink, Albert
Stallings , George
Street, Gabby
Taylor , C. I.
Thayer , Ernest
Warfield , Frank
White , Sol
Wilkinson , J. L.
Wilson , Horace

jalbright

05-23-2009, 08:34 AM

My ballot:

Players
1. Charlie Gehringer
2. Carl Hubbell
3. Paul Waner
4. Mickey Cochrane
5. Sherry Magee
6. Zack Wheat
7. Jud Wilson
8. Fred Clarke
9. Dazzy Vance
10. Harry Stovey
11. Ted Lyons
12. Cool Papa Bell

Contributors
1. Branch Rickey
2. Ed Barrow
3. Kennesaw Landis
4. Miller Huggins
5. Ned Hanlon

leecemark

05-23-2009, 08:50 AM

--There are still no results up for 1947. Also, why is Mickey Cochrane newly eligible this year? His career ended over a decade ago.

Ubiquitous

05-23-2009, 08:50 AM

1. Charlie Gehringer
2. Mickey Cochrane
3. Paul Waner
4. Sherry Magee
5. Pie Traynor
6. Heinie Groh
7. Max Carey
8. Frank Chance
9. Rabbit Marranville
10. Bid McPhee
11. Joe Tinker
12. Johnny Evers

1. Charles Comiskey
2. Ed Barrow
3. Jack Dunn
4. A.J. Reach
5. Branch Rickey

jalbright

05-23-2009, 09:05 AM

--There are still no results up for 1947. Also, why is Mickey Cochrane newly eligible this year? His career ended over a decade ago.

It's age 45, unless he dies earlier or is still active, not when his career ends (even if active at age 45, the first season he doesn't play at the highest level he reached [Japan, Negro Leagues, majors], then he's eligible even if he played after that).

I've also got the 1947 results up now.

Domenic

05-23-2009, 09:37 AM

01. Carl Hubbell
02. Charlie Gehringer
03. Mickey Cochrane
04. Paul Waner
05. Dazzy Vance
06. Sherry Magee
07. Pie Traynor
08. Heinie Groh
09. Zack Wheat
10. Rube Waddell
11. Max Carey
12. Fred Clarke

01. Branch Rickey
02. Charles Comiskey
03. Jack Dunn
04. Ed Barrow
05. Alexander Cartwright

leecemark

05-23-2009, 10:38 AM

--4 inner circle new comers to the ballot. Three of them leap to the top of the line. Fred Clarke holds off Waner with his player-manager bonus. It also drives Ted Lyons off the ballot for now.

1) Mickey Cochrane
2) Charlie Gehringer
3) Carl Hubbell
4) Fred Clarke
5) Paul Waner
6) Jimmy Collins
7) Charlie Bennett
8) Dazzy Vance
9) Charlie Radbourne
10) Rube Waddell
11) Sherry Magee
12) Jud Wilson

1) Alexander Cartwright
2) Dickey Pearce
3) Branch Rickey
4) Commissioner Landis
5) Charlie Commiskey

Paul Wendt

05-23-2009, 11:27 AM

Re Huggins and Barrow,
soberdennis joined us last year with a vote for their boss Jacob Ruppert. Dennis whom I don't know sports a Yankees logo so I thought he might be a student of NYY history, or would it be victim of a favorable Ruppert biography? Let me repeat the crux of my late 1947 comment.

Dennis,

Why do you support Ruppert in particular, before Barrow and Huggins who are now eligible too?

Would you also support Steinbrenner before Martin and Torre --and others whose names I don't know?

Re Huggins,
AG2004 replied to Jim Albright late in 1947.
Huggins had six pennants with the Yankees, while Frank Selee had five with Boston. On the other hand, Huggins had that clunker of a season in 1925. Furthermore, Selee did better in Chicago than Huggins did in St. Louis -- and the Chicago club Selee helped to put together the team would go on to dominate the game in the five years after his health forced him out of the game.

Advantage, Selee.
I agree, advantage Selee among the field managers. As part of the job Selee also played a greater role in player acquisition and development. At least, that is implied by opinion of Barrow and Ruppert and some such narrowing of the field managers role was underway between the 1890s and 1920s.

For Huggins against Selee there is his career as a player, in my opinion only one tier below reasonable Hall of Fame candidacy.

I favor Selee over Huggins among the managers --also over Wilbert Robinson, another with an important player resume.

Hanlon also led five pennant winners from the dugout, 1894-96 and 1899-1900. He enjoyed greater control of player personnel and 20% ownership in Baltimore; 10% ownership of both clubs after the Baltimore-Brooklyn deal. He was GM to John McGraw in Baltimore at the same time he was mini-owner/GM/manager in Brooklyn.

Comiskey, Griffith, CI Taylor, and Wilkinson should be in the mix as builders of teams and clubs and the first three at least were important field managers too. Did Wilkinson "manage" the All Nations and the Monarchs in the teens? I understant that he always hired a manager, commonly one of the players, during the Leagues era.

add Cum Posey, too, in 1948

AstrosFan

05-23-2009, 05:49 PM

1. Charlie Gehringer
2. Mickey Cochrane
3. Paul Waner
4. Carl Hubbell
5. Sherry Magee
6. Zack Wheat
7. Jud Wilson
8. Dazzy Vance
9. Jimmy Collins
10. Fred Clarke
11. Cool Papa Bell
12. George Sisler

1. Branch Rickey
2. Ed Barrow
3. Alexander Cartwright
4. Kenesaw M. Landis
5. A. J. Reach

jalbright

05-24-2009, 07:53 AM

I've made some small rule changes, none of which will have a dramatic effect:

1) the second tiebreaker is now total votes received (this information was not involved in the tiebreakers before);
2) we will not have a 19th century special election in 2000, so all mention of such an event has been dropped;
3) since the voting is not exactly two weeks, I added the word approximately to better describe the situation.

jalbright

05-24-2009, 08:11 AM

dgarza

05-24-2009, 09:24 AM

Players

1. Charlie Gehringer
2. Paul Waner
3. Sam Thompson
4. Joe Jackson
5. Carl Hubbell
6. George Sisler
7. Harry Stovey
8. Willie Keeler
9. Bill Terry
10. Charley Radbourn
11. Pete Browning
12. Cool Papa Bell

Contributors

1. Branch Rickey
2. Kenesaw Landis
3. Alexander Cartwright
4. Abner Doubleday
5. Charles Conlon

jalbright

05-24-2009, 09:30 AM

jalbright

05-24-2009, 09:53 AM

Re Huggins and Barrow,
soberdennis joined us last year with a vote for their boss Jacob Ruppert. Dennis whom I don't know sports a Yankees logo so I thought he might be a student of NYY history, or would it be victim of a favorable Ruppert biography? Let me repeat the crux of my late 1947 comment.

Dennis,

Why do you support Ruppert in particular, before Barrow and Huggins who are now eligible too?

Would you also support Steinbrenner before Martin and Torre --and others whose names I don't know?

..........
Comiskey, Griffith, CI Taylor, and Wilkinson should be in the mix as builders of teams and clubs and the first three at least were important field managers too. Did Wilkinson "manage" the All Nations and the Monarchs in the teens? I understant that he always hired a manager, commonly one of the players, during the Leagues era.

add Cum Posey, too, in 1948

I'll tackle this in reverse order.

Wilkinson is not mentioned as a manager in my edition of Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues. He did follow Casey Stengel's advice in which players should stock his first team, he hired good baseball men to manage his teams, and he was a pioneer in the use of lights for night games (he got a mobile unit of lights). His team was a consistent powerhouse despite the difficulties inherent in the Negro League business model.

Ruppert also hired good baseball men, and thus had a team which was a consistent powerhouse. He pushed/ordered Barrow to create a minor league system like the Cardinals did, which shows significant foresight on his part. However, he didn't implement those policies, and I wonder how much day to day control he exercised beyond the hire of Barrow. He doesn't have the pioneering aspect of Wilkinson does with the use of lights, and Negro League guys had to scratch and claw so much harder just to survive than major league owners did. I won't knock Ruppert as a pick, but I'd take the men who implemented the grand plan along with a number of others who were more significant IMHO first.

dgarza

05-24-2009, 10:08 AM

Cochrane doesn't make the list?Correct. 2-3 spots out.

jjpm74

05-24-2009, 10:36 AM

Players:

1. Charlie Gehringer
2. Michey Cochrane
3. Ezra Sutton
4. Joe Start
5. Jimmy Collins
6. Paul Waner
7. Charlie Bennett
8. Rabbit Maranville
9. George Sisler
10. Jud Wilson
11. Pie Traynor
12. Cool Papa Bell

Contributors:

1. Cum Posey
2. C. I. Taylor
3. Branch Rickey
4. Charley Comiskey
5. Al Reach

leecemark

05-24-2009, 10:45 AM

jjpm74

05-24-2009, 10:56 AM

--Thats two ballots that Carl Hubbell hasn't made now. Hard for me to understand. He is pretty clearly the best pitcher available and just as clearly one of the top 12 overall. Ubi and JJ you both have NO pitchers on your ballot. Is there some particualr reason or do you just not see any eligible pitcher to be in the top 12?

Carl Hubbell would have made it onto this ballot as would have Ted Lyons were it not for the fact that Cochrane, Waner, Gehringer and Bell showed up for the 1st time.

Stan Coveleski and Bob Caruthers are very close for me. Pud Galvin, Urban Shocker, Rube Waddell, Red Faber, Vic Willis and Edd Roush I'll eventually vote for but don't see any of them as particularly strong candidates at this point.

leecemark

05-24-2009, 11:03 AM

--I see Cool Papa Bell as a distant 5th amoung the newcomers. He is a early and less well documented version of Kenny Lofton IMO. The catchy nickname and being in a number of Satchel Paige stories has led to him being one of (or is it THE?) most overrated Negro Leaguers.
--Hubbell is one of the top 10 pitchers in baseball history at this point. Of course Cochrane is arguably THE best catcher in MLB history and he was left off a ballot too:rolleyes:.
--I am assuming the winners here will all be newcombers and was wondering who would be the odd man out. With two ommissions I'm guessing Hubbell now - although he has been ahead of Waner on most other ballots.

jalbright

05-24-2009, 11:40 AM

--I am assuming the winners here will all be newcombers and was wondering who would be the odd man out. With two ommissions I'm guessing Hubbell now - although he has been ahead of Waner on most other ballots.

The odd man out in this election will be second to Josh Gibson in 1949, I'd wager. It's not like he'll be long delayed.

Tiboreau

05-24-2009, 02:16 PM

1. Carl Hubbell
2. Paul Waner
3. Charlie Gehringer
4. Jud Wilson
5. Mickey Cochrane
6. Ted Lyons
7. Elmer Flick
8. Dazzy Vance
9. Home Run Johnson
10. Fred Clarke
11. Pete Hill
12. Heinie Groh

jjpm74

05-24-2009, 04:14 PM

--I see Cool Papa Bell as a distant 5th amoung the newcomers. He is a early and less well documented version of Kenny Lofton IMO. The catchy nickname and being in a number of Satchel Paige stories has led to him being one of (or is it THE?) most overrated Negro Leaguers.

All I know of Cool Papa Bell is anecdotal, so it's hard for me to pin down exactly where he belongs. Some in depth discussion about him might help (or hurt) his cause. Everyone below Paul Waner on my ballot is not someone I have a strong opinion on. Some reshuffling next election would not be out of the question, but it'd take some discussion for me to do so. The only definite in next year's class for me is Josh Gibson. There is definitely room for adding/subtracting as that will leave somewhere between 6 and 8 slots open potentially.

Paul Wendt

05-24-2009, 05:05 PM

Paul Wendt

05-24-2009, 05:27 PM

Maybe I'll be the one who makes life difficult by revising his ballot. This gives me almost two weeks. I have bumped Joe Start up a couple of ranks. Charlie Bennett may return in the company of Josh Gibson.

1 Gehringer
2 Waner
3 Cochrane
4 Clarke
5 Johnson G
6 Wilson J
7 Hubbell
8 Gore
9 Groh
10 Colllins J
11 Start
12 McPhee

Ubiquitous

05-24-2009, 06:52 PM

Ubi,

Where does Carl Hubbell fit in for you?

15th? 20th? 25th?

jalbright

05-24-2009, 07:31 PM

Lefty Grove may be the only pitcher on my ballot during now seven years since Bullet Rogan. It seems to me that the 19th century "infielders" --Bennett, Start, Richardson, McPhee, Glasscock, Sutton-- are stronger candidates than the pitchers Radbourn and Caruthers, or the 1920s pitchers Coveleski, Lyons, and Vance.

Probably there is a bias in my eye, so I see all the bottom half of Hall of Fame pitchers as being in the bottom third. For simple numerical illustration, I may place 15 pitchers in the first hundred, 25 in the second hundred, and 35 in the third hundred, implicitly when I call the shots one by one.

I doubt that I rank Hubbell in the top hundred but he will be on my ballot this year, ahead of those 19ers too.

The pitcher votes that I don't understand at this stage are those for Willis, Waddell, and McGinnity (and occasionally Joss). They should compete with Bresnahan, Bobby Wallace, Tommy Leach, and Jimmy Sheckard.

Only 40 in the top 200 is too few if you ask me. The Hall has 70 or so, against about twice as many position players, which is a reasonable proportion given the history of the sport (4 pitchers to 8 position players). If the Hall is in the 230 range, you either have to make spots 201-230 all pitchers to get to that level, or you have too few pitchers. I can see knocking a few pitchers out of the top 100 and so forth (25 in the first 100, 30-35 in the second, and 10-15 in the next 30), but much more than that amounts to an unfair bias against hurlers as far as I'm concerned.

jaxxr

05-25-2009, 06:43 AM

Players;
1 Joe Jackson
2 Carl Hubbell
3 Addie Joss
4 George Sisler
5 Mickey Cochrane
6 Dazzy Vance
7 Bid McPhee
8 Willie Keeler
9 Elmer Flick
10 Rube Waddell
11 Bill Terry
12 HUgh Duffy

jalbright

05-25-2009, 07:39 AM

We now have a quorum on the player ballot side.

With the last ballot, all four of the top newcomers have been left off of at least one ballot. However, when they are on the ballot, they've dominated the top slots, and have by a quick scan never come in lower than 7th. They will clearly battle it out for the three available slots this election. None of the holdovers is even close.

bambambaseball

05-25-2009, 09:17 AM

Players:

1. Carl Hubbell
2. Charlie Gehringer
3. Stan Coveleski
4. Charlie Bennett
5. Jimmy Collins
6. Ezra Sutton
7. George Sisler
8. Bob Caruthers
9. Roger Bresnahan
10. Dickey Pearce
11. Sherry Magee
12. Jud Wilson

Contributers:

1. O.P. Caylor
2. Ed Barrow
3. A.J. Reach
4. Charles Commiskey
5. Cum Posey

jalbright

05-25-2009, 09:53 AM

With the last ballot, all four of the top newcomers have been left off of at least one ballot. However, when they are on the ballot, they've dominated the top slots, and have by a quick scan never come in lower than 7th. They will clearly battle it out for the three available slots this election. None of the holdovers is even close.

As an addendum, all four top newcomers appear on at least 9 ballots of the 11 ballots so far, none of the holdovers appear on more than seven.

Captain Cold Nose

05-26-2009, 06:25 AM

1. Charlie Gehringer
2. Mickey Cochrane
3. Carl Hubbel
4. Paul Waner
5. Cool Papa Bell
6. George Sisler
7. Willie Keeler
8. Charles Radbourne
9. Jud Wilson
10. Jimmy Collins
11. Harry Stovey
12. Frank Grant

Contributors

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Ned Hanlon
3. Branch Rickey
4. Ed Barrow
5. A.J. Reach

Sockeye

05-26-2009, 08:09 AM

1. Waner , Paul
2. Hubbell , Carl
3. Gehringer , Charlie
4. Lyons , Ted
5. Clarke , Fred
6. Jackson , Joe
7. Wheat , Zack
8. Vance , Dazzy
9. Keeler , Willie
10. Rixey , Eppa
11. Magee , Sherry
12. Galvin , Pud

1. Rickey, Branch
2. Barrow , Ed
3. Cartwright , A
4. Landis , K
5. Reach , A. J.

Paul Wendt

05-26-2009, 08:47 AM

Tommy Connolly didn't pick up another vote so I have dropped him from the ballot after two cycles. I would be inclined to elect Wilkinson next of the executives, but this project endorses some banding wagon, calling the close ones partly based on who else enjoys some support. Posey and Hanlon rather than Wilkinson and Selee (and Taylor and Griffith) seem to provide the banding opportunities now.

1 Rickey
2 Comiskey
3 Reach
4 Posey
5 Hanlon

Before his work as bench manager, GM, and minority owner in Baltimore and Brooklyn, Ned Hanlon was an important player, like Comiskey, and a minor captain/manager and players leader.

PVNICK

05-26-2009, 09:54 AM

1. Charlie Gehringer
2. Mickey Cochrane
3. Paul Waner
4. Carl Hubbell
5. George Sisler
6. Jimmy Collins
7. Hoss Radbourne
8. Pie Traynor
9. Earl Averill
10. Bob Caruthers
11. Bill Terry
12. Dazzy Vance

1. AJ Reach
2. Albert Spink
3. Barrow
4. Rickey
5. Landis

jalbright

05-26-2009, 11:18 AM

We now have a quorum on both ballots.

Freakshow

05-26-2009, 08:43 PM

1 Charlie Gehringer
2 Carl Hubbell
3 Paul Waner
4 Mickey Cochrane
5 Fred Clarke
6 Jud Wilson
7 Jimmy Collins
8 Dazzy Vance
9 Joe Start
10 Zack Wheat
11 George Sisler
12 Sherry Magee

Paul Wendt

05-26-2009, 10:54 PM

As an addendum, all four top newcomers appear on at least 9 ballots of the 11 ballots so far, none of the holdovers appear on more than seven.
They make a fine quartet but it's "no contest" in this ward. Gehringer is number one on nine of fifteen ballots, iicc.

jalbright

05-28-2009, 07:51 AM

Yeah, Gehringer's first among equals. Even so, the 4th place guy is much closer to him than the 5th place guy--and second and fourth are separated by less than a dozen points with six voters from last election yet to vote.

For the next election, the contributor ballot will add Billy Evans. The player ballot will add three guys who I don't expect to get much if any support in Bill Cissell, Spud Davis and Sam West. There are two guys who might get a little support, but I doubt will threaten to be elected in Pepper Martin and Buddy Myer. Chuck Klein will eventually likely threaten to get elected, and we'll have to talk again about his play at the Baker Bowl versus elsewhere. Willie Foster should definitely be elected as he was in the BBF HOF, but he's not likely to zoom to immediate election given the competition still available. Josh Gibson, on the other hand, should fly to the top of the ballot in 1949 and be elected easily (remembering that three of the current top four will be elected this time). Personally, Gibson will be #1 on my ballot regardless of which of the current top 4 remains, but I'm sure that won't be a unanimous opinion, whether or not it's only due to the reluctance of some to support Negro Leaguers.

Dogdaze

05-28-2009, 10:25 AM

Players:

1. Charlie Gehringer
2. Mickey Cochrane
3. Carl Hubbell
4. Paul Waner
5. Jud Wilson
6. Jimmy Collins
7. George Sisler
8. Zack Wheat
9. Cool Papa Bell
10. Old Hoss Radbourn
11. Fred Clarke
12. Biz Mackey

Contributors:

1. C. I. Taylor
2. Ed Barrow
3. Branch Rickey
4. A.J. Reach
5. Al Spink

jalbright

05-28-2009, 11:54 AM

The Negro Leaguers are coming! The Negro Leaguers are coming! Seriously, I know they've been around in our project, but the next six years have the following guys in the BBF HOF and/or Cooperstown:

1949--Willie Foster and Josh Gibson
1950--Martin Dihigo
1951--Perucho Cepeda
1952--Buck Leonard and Hilton Smith
1953--Ray Brown and Willie Wells
1954--Satchel Paige

jalbright

05-30-2009, 08:27 PM

We currently have five folks who voted in last election who have yet to do so in this one: AG2004, Brad Harris, J W, henrich, and soberdennis. Those of that five who haven't voted by Sunday night or Monday morning will get a reminder PM encouraging them to vote.

jalbright

05-31-2009, 09:20 AM

An update on the dominance of the 4 newcomers (Cochrane, Gehringer, Hubbell and P. Waner): all of them have been named on at least 13 ballots, and nobody else has been named on more than 10. Also, when they've been named, they've still never been out of the top seven. Even then, only six times have they been named on a ballot and not named in the top 4. The four of them have been left off a ballot only a total of 8 times (1 Gehringer, 2 each for Hubbell and Waner, 3 Cochrane) in 17 ballots. IOW, they've taken 50 of the 64 available votes for the top 4, and a almost half of the time they've not been in the top four, they've been in the next three spots. They've even been more dominant in the three top slots, taking 42 of those 48 spots (missing 2 #1's and 4 #3's). It's safe to say there's a consensus these are the top 4 guys on the ballot.

J W

06-01-2009, 06:36 AM

Players

1. Carl Hubbell
2. Mickey Cochrane
3. Charlie Gehringer
4. Joe Jackson
5. Biz Mackey
6. Paul Waner
7. Jud Wilson
8. Frank Grant
9. George Sisler
10. Rube Waddell
11. Sherry Magee
12. Stan Coveleski

Contributors

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Fred Clarke
3. Ed Barrow
4. Ned Hanlon
5. Branch Rickey

...gawd what a strong class.

jalbright

06-01-2009, 07:39 AM

...gawd what a strong class.

No question about it, but I don't think it will be the strongest one after 1936. I'll give you some other classes with at least three (non-Japanese) players I'd at least strongly consider voting for at this point if they were eligible:

1952
Luke Appling, Bill Dickey, Jimmie Foxx, Buck Leonard

1954
Stan Hack, Billy Herman, Mel Ott, Satchel Paige, Arky Vaughn

1963
Bobby Doerr, Bob Feller, Pee Wee Reese, Ted Williams

1966
Roy Campanella, Hal Newhouser, Warren Spahn

1976
Ernie Banks, Ken Boyer, Mickey Mantle, Eddie Mathews, Willie Mays

1990
Rod Carew, Jim Palmer, Don Sutton

1994
Carlton Fisk, Nolan Ryan, Mike Schmidt, Ted Simmons

I think I'd have to go with the 1976 class, which also has Jim Bunning.

jjpm74

06-01-2009, 08:12 AM

On the subject of Japanese players, is Sadaharu Oh eligible in 1985 or 1995? He's the one Japanese player I'd expect to see show up at or near #1 the 1st year he is eligible.

jalbright

06-01-2009, 08:25 AM

The years of first eligiblity in this project for Japanese players who made the BBF HOF:

1959: Victor Starffin
1967: Akira Bessho
1978: Masaichi Kaneda
1981: Shigeo Nagashima, Katsuya Nomura
1982: Kazuhisa Inao
1985: Isao Harimoto, Sadaharu Oh

jalbright

06-01-2009, 08:33 AM

On the subject of Japanese players, is Sadaharu Oh eligible in 1985 or 1995? He's the one Japanese player I'd expect to see show up at or near #1 the 1st year he is eligible.

For Oh, 1985. The Japanese would unquestionably wait a while if they came up now. They'll have less competition thirty "years" from now (and 90 more players inducted). They may still have to build a little, but they may get there fairly quickly given the lower level of holdover opposition (there still will be strong MLB newcomers to contend with, of course).

jalbright

06-01-2009, 06:58 PM

bambambaseball

06-01-2009, 08:58 PM

I don't think it's unrealistic of me to hope that at least one of the greatest pitchers (arguably the greatest, certainly the greatest lefty, pitcher) in Japanese baseball history, Masaichi Kaneda will make it in in one of the seven chances he has before Oh is eligible, and that Oh makes it in his first try. I won't be surprised if the others follow Oh, and I realize it's by no means certain that my hope will be realized.

Id be very surprised if Oh isnt elected right away. Starfin should also have no problem. It would be very unusual that Kaneda gets elected before him. It will take some selling and explaining to get him elected. Not to much folks even know who he is.

jalbright

06-02-2009, 07:36 AM

Id be very surprised if Oh isnt elected right away. Starfin should also have no problem. It would be very unusual that Kaneda gets elected before him. It will take some selling and explaining to get him elected. Not to much folks even know who he is.

Kaneda won 400 games in Japan, whereas Starffin won 303. Starffin played much of his career (and definitely the best in his career) before the end of World War II in 1945. It was a deadball game, and one even more affected by wartime needs than the US. Some of the very best at one time in Japanese baseball died in the service of their country, unlike in the States. A large percentage of their best lost time to military service. Also, the professional game was just getting organized in Japan during those chaotic times. It was a little easier to be dominant under those conditions, which complicates the evaluation of Starffin a bit.

Starffin has a 20+ year head start on Kaneda, so he may well make it before him. I will certainly support him as I did in the BBF HOF project. That said, he was one of the last two Japanese players we elected in that project. It may be that it will be easier to get someone from Japan elected in this format (if so, there's hope for Ochiai, at least), but until we see how it shakes out in practice, I'm not sure.

leecemark

06-02-2009, 06:43 PM

--Kaneda I'll vote for, although how long it may take him to make and/or climb my ballot remains to be seen. I never supported Starfin in the BBFHOF project and seriously doubt I will here either.

jalbright

06-04-2009, 02:56 PM

Just over 31 hours left in this election as I post. If you haven't voted and want your view to count, get it done in that time frame.

AG2004

06-05-2009, 06:27 PM

My ballot

PLAYERS
1. Charlie Gehringer
2. Mickey Cochrane
3. Paul Waner
4. Carl Hubbell
5. Jud Wilson
6. Joe Start
7. Home Run Johnson
8. Hoss Radbourn
9. Fred Clarke
10. Dickey Pearce
11. Joe McGinnity
12. Sherry Magee

The top four votes are all for newcomers.

CONTRIBUTORS
1. Branch Rickey
2. Kenesaw Mountain Landis
3. Al Reach
4. Dickey Pearce
5. Ed Barrow

jalbright

06-06-2009, 08:08 AM

This election is now ended, and in the player ballot, we have elected Charlie Gehringer, Carl Hubbell, and Mickey Cochrane in our 18 ballots. Cochrane won the tiebreaker over Paul Waner by being rated higher on 11 of the 17 ballots mentioning at least one of them (one voter left both off his ballot). The final results:

player…………….. votes points
Gehringer, C 17 195
Hubbell, Carl 16 163
Cochrane, M 15 154
Waner, Paul 16 154
Wilson, Jud 12 66
Sisler , George 10 54
Collins , Jimmy 9 53
Clarke , Fred 10 52
Vance , Dazzy 9 45
Magee , Sherry 10 42
Jackson , Joe 4 37
Wheat , Zack 6 32
Radbourn , C 6 26
Start , Joe 4 22
Bennett , C 3 21
Traynor , Pie 4 21
Keeler , Willie 4 20
Johnson , HR 3 18
Lyons , Ted 3 18
Bell, Cool Papa 6 17
Groh , Heinie 4 17
Sutton , Ezra 2 17
Waddell , Rube 4 12
Coveleski , S 2 11
Stovey , Harry 3 11
Flick , Elmer 2 10
Joss , Addie 1 10
McPhee , Bid 3 10
Thompson , Sam 1 10
Mackey, Biz 2 9
Maranville , R 2 9
Carey , Max 2 8
Caruthers , B 2 8
Terry , Bill 3 8
Grant , Frank 2 6
Pearce , Dickey 2 6
Chance , Frank 1 5
Gore , George 1 5
Averill, Earl 1 4
Bresnahan , R 1 4
Rixey , Eppa 1 3
Browning , Pete 1 2
Hill , Pete….. 1 2
McGinnity , Joe 1 2
Tinker, Joe 1 2
Duffy , Hugh 1 1
Evers , Johnny 1 1
Galvin , Pud 1 1

On the Contributor side, we had 15 ballots and elected Branch Rickey. The final results:

Contributor………. votes points
Rickey, Branch 14 51
Barrow , Ed 11 35
Cartwright , A 7 25
Reach , A. J. 10 22
Commiskey , C 6 18
Landis , K 7 18
Taylor , C. I. 2 9
Hanlon , Ned 4 8
Posey, Cum 3 8
Dunn , Jack 2 6
Pearce, Dickey 2 6
Caylor , O. P. 1 5
Spink, Albert 2 5
Clarke , Fred 1 4
Doubleday , A 1 2
Huggins , M 1 2
Conlan , C 1 1