Need help picking a hitting DVD set...

[DLC11]

I will give you my background real quick....

I was an above average high school player and an average college player. I played at an NAIA school in Indiana. Our coaches hitting philosophy in college was linear (I'm talking Dave Hudgens right down to the core). Swing down, hands high, hands lead, all that stuff.

Well, after doing my own research I have found out that the stuff I was taught is not what I want to teach. I don't believe in any of this Hudgens stuff (sorry if that offends anyone here). I want to teach a rotational swing.

There is a good chance that I am going to be taking over as head coach at a small high school here in Indiana and I want to give these kids the best opportunity to succeed on the field. The problem is, right now, I don't know how to do that because I wasn't taught what is, IMO, the proper way to hit a baseball.

I need some DVD's, books, anything that is not only going to teach me the rotational swing, but it is going to teach me the best way to teach our kids this swing. I feel a tad bit overwhelmed with all this right now and any help here would be greatly appreciated.

[Mark H]

Studied most of them. Agree with your conclusions so far. Suggest Englishbey. You can sign up on the public side of his website for free and study for awhile before you pull the trigger. I have problems with Epstein's model. Lesser problems with Mankin's model. Yeager may be ok. Some of what I hear his adherents saying I agree with. Most probably. Right View's software and library of ML comparison clips is great if you can afford it. I have a problem with a couple of things in their swing exposition and don't like their drills but it's pretty good stuff. Overall, I like Englishbeyhitting.

[HYP]

I would suggest Epstein. Simple drills that get you to feel the MLB pattern fairly quickly.

John Mallee is good also.

I do not know how the HS is where you are going but at the school I am the hitting instructor at, it is hard to implement one style of hitting. Some of the kids have thier own private instructors and you will not have the time to spend with each kid on hitting.

If I may make a suggestion. Attack the lower levels with your hitting philosophy. The upper classmen will benefit from any drills but you will not be able to change them in the short time you will be with them. Make sure that all the coaches at each level are on the same page as you.

Learn from all "gurus" you never know what will come in handy during the season.

hittingillustrated.com as some very good information on it as well and supplements Epsteins material nicely.

[Kevkey]

Might want to consider looking into the DVD's by John Mallee, minor league hitting coordinator for the Florida Marlins. He has 2 DVD's, one on the swing and the second on hitting drills. Great information and not expensive.
Oops. Hyp got the info on Mallee out first.
Bottom line, No need to spend hundred's of dollars on DVD's.

[mudvnine]

Well, after doing my own research I have found out that the stuff I was taught is not what I want to teach. I don't believe in any of this Hudgens stuff (sorry if that offends anyone here). I want to teach a rotational swing.


It does not offend me, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I'm not sure why you believe Hudgens teaches a linear swing; if that is the case, you would also have to say that Rudy Jaramillo is a linear instructor. So just to set the record straight for those unfamiliar with Hudgens material, the core of his teaching is rotational, however, he does identify the linear aspect of the swing to keep hitters from becoming spinners.


Weight Transfer (Linear) - Some hitters may use more weight transfer than rotation, They want to get on top of their front foot and transfer their weight through the ball. You'll see these hitters on top of their front leg more dramatically than others. Generally speaking, the hitters who use a greater percentage of weight transfer hit more singles and doubles. I have racked my brain to try to give you an example of a Major League weight transfer hitter and I can't think of any. Some might argue that George Brett was a pure weight transfer hitter - this is a misconception . . . .

Rotation - A total rotational hitter will have more power than the weight transfer hitter simply because he uses his hips and legs more, and of course you know that is the core part of the body from which power comes. However, hitters who are rotationally dominate will generally have a longer swing, pull of the ball more, and be more inconsistent; therefore, they will have more holes in their swing. They will not be able to use their hands to react to different locations and types of pitches. Dave Kingman, who played in the 1980's, is a good example of a pure rotational hitter. Dave would hit 40 homeruns a year and hit .200 for average. I can't think of any current Major League hitter who hits purely rotationally, although both Barry Bonds and Greg Vaughn utilize more rotation than weight transfer . . .

Now you may not agree with the way Hudgens goes about teaching his philosophy and that's fine, but let's at least try to be honest when talking his core principles.

Our coaches hitting philosophy in college was linear (I'm talking Dave Hudgens right down to the core). Swing down, hands high, hands lead, all that stuff.

Okay, let's start with the "swing down" and "hands lead" misquotes:
Hand Path - Let's examine the path the hands will take through the swing. The goal is to keep the barrel of the bat in the strike zone for as long as possible.

Get the barrel of the bat in the strike zone with the shortest possible angle.
Keep the barrel of the bat in the strike zone for as long as possible
Finish with the extension out front and with a good follow through.

If you do this, you will have an efficient swing, one that will be consistent and repeatable.
So, where am I missing the "swing down" or "hands lead" portion of his hand path description?

Now how about your problem with "hands high" (even though I'm not sure of what context you're referring to).
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Hitters/AlbertPujols/AlbertPujols_003.jpg http://www.love-quotes-and-quotations.com/images/jeterbat.jpg http://sidesalad.net/archives/Yank9s.jpg http://assets0.bleacherreport.com/images_root/slideshows/93/slideshow_9382/display_image.jpg http://assets2.bleacherreport.com/images_root/slideshows/308/slideshow_30897/display_image.jpg http://farm1.static.flickr.com/229/500225462_3258786183.jpg

So I'm guessing none of those hands were "high" in your book? Or is this what you think Dave teaches?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/__B_JeDpsrBg/SK4TwxuN5oI/AAAAAAAAACE/MJRsM66tBNM/s400/craig+counsell.jpg

Now, with all that said and probably time wasted, even though I liked what I got from Dave's teachings and it made dramatic changes to my sons' swings all for the better about 7 years ago, I believe now that he may be a little out dated and that he hasn't changed his material to reflect some of the changes that we are seeing in hitters today.

Although I believe that you are well past his material's value, I do think Hudgens writes in a manner that easily understandable for newbie dads looking to get their kids started in the right direction. I also believe that supplementary material from his stuff is needed to get the hitters past the HS level and I agree with HYP that HI.com supplements or advances any of the "commercial" gurus stuff regardless of who is teaching the "basics".

[songtitle]

Originally Posted by From Hudgens' book, The Insiders Game
Weight Transfer (Linear) - Some hitters may use more weight transfer than rotation, They want to get on top of their front foot and transfer their weight through the ball. You'll see these hitters on top of their front leg more dramatically than others.

Rotation - However, hitters who are rotationally dominate will generally have a longer swing, pull of the ball more, and be more inconsistent; therefore, they will have more holes in their swing. They will not be able to use their hands to react to different locations and types of pitches.


mudvnine, based on the above, Hudgens doesn't understand linear or rotational.

Linear is not primarily about weight transfer - it's primarily about hands and knob to the ball.

"Pulling off the ball" and "holes in their swing" have nothing to do with rotational vs. linear.

[CoachL4]

My Hitting Coach Rankings Nationally (I work for a pro team and am a former head college coach).

1. Craig Wallenbrock (look him up). Has a DVD but doesn't really go around selling it. But will.
2. Don Slaught. RightViewPro.com
3. Chris O'Leary and Englishbey (very similar). ChrisOLeary.com and EnglishbeyHitting.com

Plus a new guy that is still learning but I think is getting it right and has some stuff on youtube now...

understandbaseball.com

[mudvnine]

mudvnine, based on the above, Hudgens doesn't understand linear or rotational.

Linear is not primarily about weight transfer - it's primarily about hands and knob to the ball.

Interesting, so you're telling me that a full, 100% weight transfer hitter, who gets out OVER his front leg could still could still swing with his hips leading his hands with proper swing timing? Where might the contact location be and how long would their bat remain in the hitting zone?

Hmmmm, I'd really like to see that or possibly you could show me a linear hitter that moves their "hands and knob to the ball" without getting weight transfer out over the front end . . . that sure would be interesting to see. You've never seen a rotational hitter that improperly gets his hands out ahead of his hips which puts his hands and knob to the ball? Does that make him a linear hitter?

"Pulling off the ball" and "holes in their swing" have nothing to do with rotational vs. linear.
And Hudgens did not say it did either . . . he said, "hitters who are rotationally dominate will generally have a longer swing, pull off the ball more, and be more inconsistent; therefore, they will have more holes in their swing". Are you here to state that a 100% rotational hitter won't pull off the ball more than a 100% linear hitter?

Hudgens' philosophy is that the MLB swing is a 50/50 mix of linear movements leading into rotational movement; you may argue differently and that's fine, but from watching video I tend to agree with him on that part of his teaching.

From what I'm getting from your post, is maybe it's someone other than Dave who doesn't understand linear vs. rotational, but rather is parroting what they hear at their local batting cage.

[Cannonball]

DLC11, I tend to agree with MarkH but would admit that this is not a simple question. Most of the posters on this site have been on a journey. We all have similar intent with our players/children and yet, for most of us, we tend to disagree on this topic. No one is wrong. Instead, you have to figure out what you think you know and what you know for sure. You can't simply jump into any system and run with it. Personally, I've coached baseball for most of my life. I've been through several system and, at the time, each system seemed to fit the bill for me. Then, I would find little "flaws" for lack of a better term in each system that just didn't seem good in practice. I would bet that you will have a similar journey. Good luck on the possibility of being a head coach. I've been there and done that. I just got back from our school playing at the same time my dd's team was playing. At the baseball diamond, I had some 9 players there. One of them came over to the softball field and asked me to come over. I'm hoping you find the blessings that I've had in coaching.

[Deemax]

My Hitting Coach Rankings Nationally (I work for a pro team and am a former head college coach).

1. Craig Wallenbrock (look him up). Has a DVD but doesn't really go around selling it. But will.
2. Don Slaught. RightViewPro.com
3. Chris O'Leary and Englishbey (very similar). ChrisOLeary.com and EnglishbeyHitting.com

Plus a new guy that is still learning but I think is getting it right and has some stuff on youtube now...

understandbaseball.com

I really feel like you are Chris Oleary. If it is you, just post as Chris Oleary again.... If its not you, my apologies.

[caseyd123]

I am going to say Mike Epstein's system as my suggestion to you. A very simple system that teaches IMO, the most important part of the Upper Body pattern: lateral tilt.

Voldemort's website has helped me out a ton too....

[Mark H]

My answer was aimed at a guy wanting to learn about hitting. As I read the thread, I'd like to comment from a team coach perspective. There are exceptions to what I'm about to say but they would be few. Most of your hs kids are not going to play any higher than hs. For the older players, it's getting pretty close to "dance with who brung ya'" time to quote Bum Phillips. My philosophy is leave your top five or six hitters alone. If your leading hitters are holding the wrong end of the bat standing on their head but getting results, leave'em alone. Focus on your lesser hitters. When you get those kids to pass your better hitters, then you can focus on the ones who used to be your better hitters. If you can't coach the 7 and below hitters well enough to get them past your top six hitters, you probably don't need to be messing with the better hitters anyway. ESPECIALLY, during season.

To ward off comments from the usual suspects, the part about wrong end of the bat standing on their heads was tongue in cheek hyperbole to emphasize a point.

[mudvnine]

My answer was aimed at a guy wanting to learn about hitting. As I read the thread, I'd like to comment from a team coach perspective. There are exceptions to what I'm about to say but they would be few. Most of your hs kids are not going to play any higher than hs. For the older players, it's getting pretty close to "dance with who brung ya'" time to quote Bum Phillips. My philosophy is leave your top five or six hitters alone. If your leading hitters are holding the wrong end of the bat standing on their head but getting results, leave'em alone. Focus on your lesser hitters. When you get those kids to pass your better hitters, then you can focus on the ones who used to be your better hitters. If you can't coach the 7 and below hitters well enough to get them past your top six hitters, you probably don't need to be messing with the better hitters anyway. ESPECIALLY, during season.

Excellent post and perspective when dealing with multiple higher level team players on a limited time basis. I had not thought of that or used that in the past, but I think it better optimizes the time available and it will definitely be something I will use in the future . . . thank you Mark. :thumbsup::thumbsup: