progress report

[Kevin G]

www.filedorm.com/show.php/8182_KevinPatrick002.avi.html

The above link is to a recent swing of my 9 year old son.
Some of you may remember a game swing I posted last August. Here's an update.

You can use the slide bar to get frame by frame.

This swing represents a benchmark of sorts in our swing development.
I've mentioned in my sporadic postings that I believe you must build the swing around a precise set of parameters which will result in the correct release of the bat head through contact.

These are ......swing plane, proper hand action (needed to facilitate the proper release of the bat) and correct back arm action.

All three are present in this swing, so the table is now set to layer in the secondary components of ..... proper use of isometric tension, loading of hips, hands and separation, etc.

The beauty of this swing is that there is much that he has NOT incorporated into the swing yet, and the ball is smoked quite well. (The power of geometry) You'll notice the hands begin from a position too far in front of him and he never gets the benefit of using his body early in the swing. He does snap through contact as he responds athletically to the release, but this action is largely wasted (it's really just keeping up with the "whip", but isn't helping with power).

We're right on track according to my theories on the swing.

PS- This is a 31" wood bat. They can teach you a lot about the right way to swing the bat.

[Ursa Major]

The link comes up with a bunch of gibberish. Problem on the site?

[Kevin G]

I think I see the problem.

The link changes when it goes "clickable"

Paste this in adress bar after www.


filedorm.com/show.php/8182_KevinPatrick002.avi.html

[FlippJ]

Looks like a pretty good swing for a 9 year old. Do you have a clip of a swing from the beginning? This one starts with his foot already in the air.

[Kevin G]

I can't get the link to work on my laptop, so I uploaded on this site.... it's very poor quality.

http://www.dropshots.com/keving

[FlippJ]

Here you go Kevin...

http://obsessedwithbaseball.com/analysis/hitting/09/20090516Patrick_CageSwing_FView.gif

[baseballdad]

I like it. It is tough to say but there appears to be a little dropping of the barrell during the swing and a little pushing of the hands but pretty nice. I think a lighter practice bat might help in those areas.

Are you using any particular teacher to help you develop his swing?

[Kevin G]

It is tough to say but there appears to be a little dropping of the barrell during the swing .....

You want to see barrel drop, go look at Josh Hamilton's bombs from last years HR Derby. You can learn something about the swing with a little barrel drop.


and a little pushing of the hands......

I guess I wasn't specific in the first post. I talked about the absence of body.... the implication being that this swing is certainly then "armsy" as a result. I will say that part of what looks like a push is actually the correct action of the back arm.


I think a lighter practice bat might help in those areas.

Actually the heavier and longer wooden bat is necessary to explore and train the proper hand action. And he really just likes swinging it. We certainly don't use it as much as a conventional bat. I chose this swing specifically to show what a nearly perfectly "efficient" release of the barrel of the bat looks like. It doesn't just happen by itself.

Once this is learned, you can then layer in the power and know when you are doing something that feels quicker or stronger, but is actually impeding this release. There is a lot going on in the swing to provide quickness and power.... but there is a fair amount of making sure there is some "getting out of the way" of the geometry of the impliment.


Are you using any particular teacher to help you develop his swing?

Not until I find one who understands the swing better than I believe I do.

Thanks for the look.

[caseyd123]

man that looks good kevin. i agree with everything you said

[rkbenn]

wow, great work! I wouldn't change a thing right now. 31" wood bat too! Tell your son his hard work is paying off. I bet he hits well and long as this swing is the one he uses in the game.

RK

[g-mac]

He's got a great looking swing. :thumbsup:

I'd be interested in seeing his "before" swing.

[darivero]

What kind of device are you using in front of him, I like the lloks of it, to help with swing plane and posture......

[Kevin G]

What kind of device are you using in front of him, I like the lloks of it, to help with swing plane and posture......

It's called Path-Pro
It's a golf training aid.
I start with it during tee work, but later with live balls.
It wasn't "in use" during this swing.

[mudvnine]

Originally Posted by baseballdad
Are you using any particular teacher to help you develop his swing?


Not until I find one who understands the swing better than I believe I do.

Thanks for the look.

I definitely agree with you on that statement. If you are the one that got that swing from a 9 year old, I wouldn't recommend you take him anywhere else.

Congratulations Kevin, that's an excellent swing for a 9 year old with a 31" wood, please keep us posted with videos as you progress him through his training sessions . . . you are definitely doing something right!! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[mudvnine]

It's called Path-Pro
It's a golf training aid.
I start with it during tee work, but later with live balls.
It wasn't "in use" during this swing.

Very interesting, I can see how it could be used in tee work, but how do you use it when you go live?

[Baseball gLove]

I like your kid's swing too. I agree with a little barrel drop as well, as long as there is some control of the barrel.

[songtitle]

I would recommend, at the start of the swing, to take his back elbow to his hip, then keep it there until impact.

[Baseball gLove]

On a second look I'd like to see a little more connection before he fires the hands. Whoops, songtitle beat me to it.

[davewashere]

That's probably the best swing I've ever seen out of a 9-year-old. Great work. Good idea using the wood bat; there's really no reason to practice with metal/composite, as they'll just teach the young hitter that he can get away with making poor contact.

[rkbenn]

On a second look I'd like to see a little more connection before he fires the hands. Whoops, songtitle beat me to it.

Maybe, but, something you also have to keep in mind, he is swinging a 28 oz bat as a 9 and handling it.

[songtitle]

Maybe, but, something you also have to keep in mind, he is swinging a 28 oz bat as a 9 and handling it.

huh? It should be harder to throw your hands with a heavy bat. It would be easier to keep his elbow tucked.

[Kevin G]

Very interesting, I can see how it could be used in tee work, but how do you use it when you go live?

Let me say this is a jugs machine. I have not used it w/ a live arm.
I usually set it on another golf aid called an impact bag. It's yellow vinyl stuffed w/ rags. It gets the angles better. You can start by keeping it just outside the tip of the bat circumference. It's a great visual reference. I can put it inside the swing sphere of Kevin. It can be set on a waist high plane.
If the pitch is low, then the swing goes well above it. If it is high, then even though the swing plane is flatter, it should still finish above it. Low and inside, where the swing is early and a severe pull could hit it.... no harm done.

[Kevin G]

huh? It should be harder to throw your hands with a heavy bat. It would be easier to keep his elbow tucked.

I actually thought you were kidding with the elbow thing.
No better recipe for a bad swing than the elbow "tuck and hold".

[songtitle]

I actually thought you were kidding with the elbow thing.
No better recipe for a bad swing than the elbow "tuck and hold".

Yea, kinda like the hitters at the bottom of this page.

http://www.efastball.com/hitting/rotational-vs-linear-hitting-methods/

Can you show me a pic of an MLB hitter that does not do this on a fastball?

[Baseball gLove]

I actually thought you were kidding with the elbow thing.
No better recipe for a bad swing than the elbow "tuck and hold".

It's not tuck and hold, more like tuck and release.

[rkbenn]

huh? It should be harder to throw your hands with a heavy bat. It would be easier to keep his elbow tucked.

This kid, at the age of 9 should not change a thing. He looks good, and is getting good results. That's my opinion.

[songtitle]

This kid, at the age of 9 should not change a thing. He looks good, and is getting good results. That's my opinion.


Sorry, I thought this was a coaching forum.:happy:

[Kevin G]

It's not tuck and hold, more like tuck and release.


It's not really tuck and release either.

This is starting to devolve a little.

I've posted a demonstration swing. This is not a game swing.

I am on a multi-year developmental path and am sort of "constructing" the baseball swing. And why am I constructing a swing over time?

'Cause you can't cram a MLB swing into a 13-15 year old body and mind, let alone a 9 YO. I have some strong beliefs in why I am focusing on the sequence that I do.


Meanwhile..... even half finished, it still outperforms 99% of age group.

Take what you find useful in my comments.

We'll provide updates as we go.

[soceric]

I've mentioned in my sporadic postings that I believe you must build the swing around a precise set of parameters which will result in the correct release of the bat head through contact.

These are ......swing plane, proper hand action (needed to facilitate the proper release of the bat) and correct back arm action.



Could you expand your thoughts on these. They are all related. Where did you start, and why?

Thanks

[BoardMember]

'Cause you can't cram a MLB swing into a 13-15 year old body and mind, let alone a 9 YO.

What a bunch of crap.......FIRST OF ALL, THE BACK ARM ACTION DOESN'T MEAN DIDDLY SQUAT...........

Just teach him to push his hands back(the elbow doesn't matter), load/ride the back leg(sit and forward by turning), cast the bat head early into a swivel looking dealy, torque the handle backwards toward the catcher........

Then we can sync him up with Albert Pujols.........If he isn't a match......your an idiot..........:faint: :D :D

Seriously, not a bad swing Kev......:thumbsup:

[FlippJ]

I am on a multi-year developmental path and am sort of "constructing" the baseball swing. And why am I constructing a swing over time?

'Cause you can't cram a MLB swing into a 13-15 year old body and mind, let alone a 9 YO. I have some strong beliefs in why I am focusing on the sequence that I do.

I think this is a great approach. It's not easy to stay patient these days. Your son is lucky to have you as a teacher.

[Baseball gLove]

torque the handle backwards toward the catcher........

Seriously, not a bad swing Kev......:thumbsup:

This is after the hip turn?

Pedroia does let his elbow get away in a similar fashion.

[Ursa Major]

I am on a multi-year developmental path and am sort of "constructing" the baseball swing. And why am I constructing a swing over time?

'Cause you can't cram a MLB swing into a 13-15 year old body and mind, let alone a 9 YO. I have some strong beliefs in why I am focusing on the sequence that I do.
Kev, be prepared for many surprises and frustrations along the way, and don't overplan the course of where you go. See Marinovich, Todd.

And, most importantly, enjoy the journey with your son. And let him teach himself -- and you -- much of the way.

Meanwhile..... even half finished, it still outperforms 99% of age group.I profoundly disagree...

I'd put it at ... oh, say, 99.5%. :bowdown: :happy:


We'll provide updates as we go.Looking forward to it.

[Kevin G]

Kev, be prepared for many surprises and frustrations along the way, and don't overplan the course of where you go. See Marinovich, Todd.

I'm not familiar w/ these, but I must assume they had their natural talent and potential instructed right out of them.

I'm more sensitive to this than you can know.
My brother in-law suffered this fate at a crucial time when he had all the tools to be a PGA Tour player. I really think I can provide a method that will allow Kevin to occasionally sort of act like a dog coming out of the pool.... say "I get that", shake the water out of his fur, step into the box and do it his way.

This is why I've started at the end and am working backwards. I'm convinced the contact to post contact action is more precise and important than anyone else I've come across. The funny thing is I believe nearly everyone else has it backwards. Asking immature kids to get quicker, when they don't have the neuro-muscular development to blend it into the ability to adjust to location and speed, results in a train wreck coming into contact.
I used to say in golf that you can't work on the engine while you're going 60mph. It's the same here.
I know nearly everyone associated in the various "camps" have some challenges to how Kevin is doing this or that. Or worse yet, that he is NOT doing this or that. I can bet you someone will have sent a PM describing Kevin's swing as ....."l-o-n-gggg". I'm quite unconcerned with those.
I've prioritized the components of the swing into where we have the best chance to make serious and lasting improvements and still have adequate game functionality.

Actually, what is at the heart of it is that I was looking for the things that a kid can do nearly exactly like the big boys. The speed and power, I determined to be unattainable.
The geometry that I always talk about is, in my opinion. Training the hands and arms exactly how they must move through space to accommodate this geometry is, imo.

It's like pushing while running beside a wagon with a steering wheel. There is physical energy being applied to get momentum into the wagon ...... all the while you must expend effort to run beside the wagon in a fairly precise way to avoid running over your toes and keeping within reach of the steering wheel. Certainly when first confronted with this task you need to take it slow. As all the coordinated effort is blended and becomes more efficient....the speed can be increased substantially. Or you can just push like hell and wait for the wreck.

This is my belief about how the hands/arms/and body work with/through and beside the bat during the swing.

This is what is being demonstrated in this swing

http://obsessedwithbaseball.com/analysis/hitting/09/20090516Patrick_CageSwing_FView.gif

I may be full of poop..... but I don't think so.

I'm willing to "publish", if you will, the work while it is in progress.

Thanks for the encouragement, Ursa.

Kevin

[Kevin G]

And, most importantly, enjoy the journey with your son. And let him teach himself -- and you -- much of the way.




You bet'cha.

A couple of years ago, I was anxious to "get in there and work on some things" in his swing and get some reps for muscle memory. We had been rained out of practice so I thought this would be great "bonus" time to work in the back yard.

Kev wanted to go back there too, but to play our usual game of one on one.
I pitch and he hits full field. I run down the balls and if I can hurl the ball into the backstop while he is between bases.... he is out.

I was maybe 48 and already sore at the time and really didn't want to, but we did. Oh yea, it was drizzling on us the whole time.

The other day he asked me if I remembered the "emergency bonus rain game" in the back yard?

I certainly did.
The only difference is he remembers the "bonus game".
I remember the "bonus time".

Kevin

[mudvnine]

I'm not familiar w/ these, but I must assume they had their natural talent and potential instructed right out of them.

I'm more sensitive to this than you can know.
My brother in-law suffered this fate at a crucial time when he had all the tools to be a PGA Tour player. I really think I can provide a method that will allow Kevin to occasionally sort of act like a dog coming out of the pool.... say "I get that", shake the water out of his fur, step into the box and do it his way.

This is why I've started at the end and am working backwards. I'm convinced the contact to post contact action is more precise and important than anyone else I've come across. The funny thing is I believe nearly everyone else has it backwards. Asking immature kids to get quicker, when they don't have the neuro-muscular development to blend it into the ability to adjust to location and speed, results in a train wreck coming into contact.
I used to say in golf that you can't work on the engine while you're going 60mph. It's the same here.
I know nearly everyone associated in the various "camps" have some challenges to how Kevin is doing this or that. Or worse yet, that he is NOT doing this or that. I can bet you someone will have sent a PM describing Kevin's swing as ....."l-o-n-gggg". I'm quite unconcerned with those.
I've prioritized the components of the swing into where we have the best chance to make serious and lasting improvements and still have adequate game functionality.

Actually, what is at the heart of it is that I was looking for the things that a kid can do nearly exactly like the big boys. The speed and power, I determined to be unattainable.
The geometry that I always talk about is, in my opinion. Training the hands and arms exactly how they must move through space to accommodate this geometry is, imo.

It's like pushing while running beside a wagon with a steering wheel. There is physical energy being applied to get momentum into the wagon ...... all the while you must expend effort to run beside the wagon in a fairly precise way to avoid running over your toes and keeping within reach of the steering wheel. Certainly when first confronted with this task you need to take it slow. As all the coordinated effort is blended and becomes more efficient....the speed can be increased substantially. Or you can just push like hell and wait for the wreck.

This is my belief about how the hands/arms/and body work with/through and beside the bat during the swing.

This is what is being demonstrated in this swing

:applaud::applaud: :thumbsup::thumbsup: :clapping :clapping :highfive: :highfive:

That is an excellent post Kevin; that should be put up top as a "sticky" and should be required reading for all of the new dads that come here looking for the holy grail of hitting for their young ball players.

Some good stuff gets put up here but the words "age appropriate for . . . " should also be attached to many/most of them. I am still kicking myself for falling victim to a couple of these and it's taken my son over a season to get him back on the right track. It's nice to see him smile and begin to enjoy the game again.

Be very careful and selective on the advise you use from here and DO NOT let the "do what the pros do" nonsense fool you . . . they are adults and more physically developed, with better hand/eye coordination then ANY of us here, let alone 6 through 16 year olds.

IOWs, Don't set the bar to a height that they will hit their head every time they try to jump over it . . . .



Great job Kevin . . . you hit the nail on the head,
Mud


EDIT: The "Be very careful and selective on the advise you use . . . " was not meant for Kevin (he has it figured out), but rather for those new here or those trying to decide what advise to take and when. That is all . . . carry on. :)

[JRH11]

Kevin:

Just curious.........What is your son's height/weight? he looks like a solid kid.

[Kevin G]

Kevin:

Just curious.........What is your son's height/weight? he looks like a solid kid.

Don't let the fat cheeks (wife's side lol) fool ya.
He's not small but deffinately not stout or strong. Can't really do one military push up..... can do 5-6 cheaters. Can't do one pull up. On the other hand, he's not frail in any way.

I believe he's 4'6" and 78lbs

[JRH11]

Don't let the fat cheeks (wife's side lol) fool ya.
He's not small but deffinately not stout or strong. Can't really do one military push up..... can do 5-6 cheaters. Can't do one pull up. On the other hand, he's not frail in any way.

I believe he's 4'6" and 78lbs

My son is 8 y/o (49 inches tall and a whopping 58 lbs) and looks tiny compared to your son.

Great swing by the way!! :thumbsup: Keep us posted.

[rkbenn]

Don't let the fat cheeks (wife's side lol) fool ya.
He's not small but deffinately not stout or strong. Can't really do one military push up..... can do 5-6 cheaters. Can't do one pull up. On the other hand, he's not frail in any way.

I believe he's 4'6" and 78lbs

My son is 4'8" and 60lbs and even though he has a great swing, the most he could handle is a 27" wood bat. Oh, and he's 10.

What does he us in the game? What kind of success does he have in the game? I'm just wondering if he carries it over to the game.

[Kevin G]

My son is 4'8" and 60lbs and even though he has a great swing, the most he could handle is a 27" wood bat. Oh, and he's 10.

What does he us in the game? What kind of success does he have in the game? I'm just wondering if he carries it over to the game.

Haven't been to a computer since Thurs.......

For the most part, yes. We just got him a 30” 21oz stealth IMX this week and put it in play today. The decision to go with this bat was based to a large extent on the work with the wooden bat. It is really hard in my opinion to get it just right with a bat. I’ve seen the kinetic energy measurements comparing light to heavier bats, and tend to believe in leaning heavier if at all possible. This bat looks a litle big in his hands, so we'll see.

Playing on a 9U team today, he ground ball (almost check swing) singled up the middle in first w/ no one on. He smoked a 3 RBI double over the CF head to the fence w/ 2outs and 2 strikes with team down 9 to 3 next AB. Next AB w/ team down 10 to 6 he hit a slicing fly ball to left which, if the LF didn’t freeze first and then go to ball it was probably catchable. That was a 2 RBI double w/ 2 outs and an 0 and 2 count. That was a nice game.

Playing up on his real 10U team, he has the most balls hit to outfield grass on team, even though he only may be 4th in absolute power. He started the season roping a pitch at the eyes for a triple. He then hit a lot of fly outs to outfield and was having a hard time laying off the high one. I think we’re getting over that now. He is a left handed pull hitter so he gets no benefit from hard hit bobbled balls to 1st or 2nd, they are still outs. This contrasts to weakly hit but still bobbled balls at 3rd and short which are still counted as “hits” by parents and (if it’s their son) coaches. He has been thrown out a couple of times by the RF on a nicely spanked one hopper right at them.

He’s by no means a hitting machine, or a “beast”, but he has a reputation for being the kid most want with the bat in his hand when it’s crunch time. I have heard teammates in the dugout hope the kid ahead of Kevin walks so he can drive some in.

Again, Kevin has some holes in his approach. He’s “letting” the bat go around the corner to a large degree right now and doesn’t have the “snap”. What is encouraging to my teaching concept is that by really “hitting through the ball” by sustaining the line of compression with proper geometry, we get the most production per MPH of bat speed that I have seen in the youth game.

Oh, by the way. In the second game today (I didn’t see it) he didn’t really hit anything hard, but didn’t make an out.

Hope this answers your question somewhat.

[Ursa Major]

Kev, thanks for the further insights into your thinking. My reference to surprises and frustrations is addressed pretty well by your "shake the water' analogy, which shows a pretty imaginative and positive take on the learning process. But, there will times that any kid will try and stay with techniques that you and everyone else in the world knows is wrong, but he wants to do it. That's when it gets tough to stay with your program. One of the best antidotes for that is to take him too tournaments against really, really good teams, where he'll see kids who just crush the ball with impeccable technique. If he's motivated, he'll want to be like those kids... And how did they get that way? They listened to their hitting coaches.

Also, if you make it seem too important to YOU for the kid to succeed, he can realize that he has power over you and essentially extort things -- equipment, toys, a free pass on homework, whatever -- in return for his agreement to go out and practice. You're not likely to see it now and may never, but it can kick in at about age 11 or 12, and be nasty. The worst I saw was a kid who combined that with the divorced parent extortion racket (i.e., "if you love me more than mom you'll buy me X").

The "Marinovich, Todd" reference was to a single person, Todd Marinovich. His father was a former pro football player who had programmed his kid to be a sports star from an early age, monitoring his diet and getting every kind of sports psychologist imaginable to get him into the right, competitive state of mind. It was said he'd never had a soft drink until he entered college at USC. He had a very good college QB career at USC and was a 1st round draft choice of the Raiders. Well, he was so programmed and so tightly wound that -- when he got into the real world -- he cut loose in a bad way, and ended up with a number of drug busts and now is a part-time bartender whose name surfaces in the news every couple or three years when he gets busted again.

Anyway, as to his swing, he's ready to start thinking about taking outside strikes to left field, or he'll start seeing a shift against him and, as you point out, getting thrown out on knocked-down grounders that would be hits on the left side. If he learns to "hit the inside seam" on those pitches on the outside corner and hit them deep in the zone, he'll be much less susceptbible to swinging too soon against -- or swinging over -- the off-speed crud that he'll see as he plays more elite ball.

So, yeah, let us know how it goes... in part because it helps others in their efforts to know what does and does not work with a particular type of kid, and in part because it's fun to know how good kids turn out. We share in each others' successes.

[Kevin G]

This is a pretty nice swing.



http://obsessedwithbaseball.com/analysis/hitting/09/20090516Patrick_CageSwing_FView.gif



........But this is a pretty nice piece of hitting.
Single to short LC.

The set up is this. Kev is 9, playing on a 10U team, that's playing in a 11U tourney (only 'cause all the 10U's cancelled) He wants to go oppo 'cause the older kids on the bigger bases (70/50 instead of 60/45) are showing some tight defense on right side, where he usually pulls the ball.
The rubber is 5 feet farther back and the pitcher isn't really any faster than his normal age group stuff. So, he gets into the front leg and lets it slide a little as he sees that he's early. (NOTE: since he doesn't get the front foot down and thus get some separation of hips first-then hands..... his tools to handle the timing of the pitch are limited..as w/ most 9YO's)..... Then he gives it a little "fulcrum push" to keep the barrel angle correct for a left side hit. And through all this, the hands, arms and barrel are delivered beautifully on plane right through contact and into the "knob at sternum-barrel at pitcher position". This was the only ball that got to the grass on the fly by our team. Look at the barrel chasing right behind the exiting ball. This is what I'm talking about. This doesn't just happen automatically if you do everything right in the first part of the swing. Your hands, arms, shoulders and posture must be trained to work within this geometry. No "five frames to a train wreck" here. This is what I'm working backwards from. All the speed and power elements early in the swing must be able to support this finish (except for this much fulcrum push..... remember he was responding athletically on the fly to keeping the barrel behind the hands so he could stay left of 2nd base). But the knob path is close to perfect.
This is certainly a predominately arms driven swing. This is OK for now as we are "educating" the hands/arms/shoulders/posture. This will change as we progress.
Again, take from this what you wish.......
No one can know how it will turn out.