All Time Starting Outfield

[therealnod]

I'm certain this is well covered, but I'd like a fresh take for the purposes of rubbing spit in the face of my local morning sports talk guy. He claims he's a seamhead (first mistake), and he recently listed his All Time Starting Outfield as Ruth, Mays, and...Hank Aaron. I have no problem with Ruth or Mays (obviously), but Aaron is quite a stretch as a starter over Williams. I will not budge from that position. I have extensive email contact with him, and the man actually had the audacity to say he'd take Clemente over Williams. That strikes me as just plain stupid. I simply wanna know who would take Aaron over Williams for an OF spot. I don't wanna know why, I already know why (you're crazy).

[STLCards2]

Ruth, Mays, and Cobb or Ruth, Mays, and Bonds depending on how I am desling with the PED issue that specific day. Williams would be my 4th outfielder, with Aaron, Speaker, and Mantle fighting it out if I needed a 5th.

[therealnod]

Why does no one ever talk about Frank Robinson...he was pretty damn good. Guy won a couple MVPs if the rumors I heard are true.

[STLCards2]

Why does no one ever talk about Frank Robinson...he was pretty damn good. Guy won a couple MVPs if the rumors I heard are true.

Robinson was fantastic - a top 25 all-time player at the very least. Still, not Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Aaron, Bonds (depending on your PED stance) or Williams. And not quite Musial, Speaker, or Mantle either. No shame there.

So if Robinson is your guy, who do you propose kicking out of the Ruth, Williams, Aaron, Cobb, Mays quintology of greatness?

If you are not willing to put Robinson in you own all-time outfiled, why call others out who don't either?:happy:

[brett]

Ruth, Mays, and Cobb or Ruth, Mays, and Bonds depending on how I am desling with the PED issue that specific day. Williams would be my 4th outfielder, with Aaron, Speaker, and Mantle fighting it out if I needed a 5th.

RF: Ruth
CF: Mays
LF: Cobb
DH: Williams
2B: Aaron
SS: Mantle

[STLCards2]

RF: Ruth
CF: Mays
LF: Cobb
DH: Williams
2B: Aaron
SS: Mantle

There's an easy fix!

[Victory Faust]

I wouldn't pick Aaron, either, but I don't think his choice is a ridiculous one. Wiliams was a great, great hitter, but Hank was the better all-around player, IMO.

You can't go wrong by picking a guy with almost 4,000 hits and more than 700 homers!!

[Michael Green]

I think Teddy Ballgame would have been the first to say that he wasn't a great defensive outfielder--which would have been correct. He also would have been the first to say that his defensive play was underrated, and that would have been correct, too. I'm not picking Aaron over him, but a lot of people underrate Aaron's abilities beyond hitting a lot of homers--excellent defensively and a fine baserunner to boot.

[bob]

Ruth, Cobb, Williams for me. Mays would fit in very nicely, but Williams is my favourite player and i cant leave him out of any lineup.:rolleyes:

[dominik]

Ruth,Bonds, Williams would be my pick. Three best hitters in baseball history.

Of course defensively this outfield would be only average, maybe that's why your friend didn't pick williams.

[Calif_Eagle]

Why not pick one outfield based on offense (Ruth, Bonds, Williams with Cobb, Mays and Aaron as alternates ) and one on defense (perhaps Speaker, Clemente, and ? or Ashburn maybe in center... or Mays in center... What is the best defensive outfield of all time? I assume that what has been attempted so far on the thread is the best all around outfield.

Seems like picking the best defensive outfield of all time would be a question that would spark a lot of debate.

[therealnod]

Robinson was fantastic - a top 25 all-time player at the very least. Still, not Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Aaron, Bonds (depending on your PED stance) or Williams. And not quite Musial, Speaker, or Mantle either. No shame there.
See, I don't put Aaron in that uppermost echelon. I also can't stand Cobb. I'd put Mantle right next to Mays...I'm comfortable with either of them. Bonds I choose to simply ignore...his situation just makes things so damn complicated that I just want to forget about him. I don't wish to argue for him or against him..it's just tired. Would I put him on my team? If you say I should I'd say "you're right," if you say I shouldn't, I'd say "you're right."


So if Robinson is your guy, who do you propose kicking out of the Ruth, Williams, Aaron, Cobb, Mays quintology of greatness?
Well, Robinson isn't really my guy, but I think it's pretty clear I would take him over Aaron. I hope I'm not being percieved as an Aaron Hater. And I'd probably put Robinson right next to Musial...and I'm a third generation Cardinals fan.


If you are not willing to put Robinson in you own all-time outfiled, why call others out who don't either?:happy:
I'm calling out the inclusion of Aaron over Williams, not the exclusion of Robinson. I'd put Robinson and Aaron neck-and-neck for fourth outfielder status.

[therealnod]

Why not pick one outfield based on offense (Ruth, Bonds, Williams with Cobb, Mays and Aaron as alternates ) and one on defense (perhaps Speaker, Clemente, and ? or Ashburn maybe in center... or Mays in center... What is the best defensive outfield of all time? I assume that what has been attempted so far on the thread is the best all around outfield.

Seems like picking the best defensive outfield of all time would be a question that would spark a lot of debate.
We're not talking Hockey...you don't get two lines. These are gonna be the guys you send out everyday, all game .
.

[Calif_Eagle]

We're not talking Hockey...you don't get two lines. These are gonna be the guys you send out everyday, all game .
.
Fair enough, as it is your thread. I'll discard defense here & take Ruth Mays & Williams (as Bonds is a PEDS user. If baseball decides one day that so many are PED users that penalizing them effectively is beyond all hope, then I'd take Bonds over Mays & leave the other two alone. Having the 3 statistically greatest hitters of all time forgives a lot of less than optimal defense. My first reserves would be Cobb and a young Mickey Mantle.)

[dominik]

If you value defense Joe DiMaggio would also be a good choice(also a great-but of course not quite in Williams,Ruth or Bonds league).

[KCGHOST]

LF: Williams (in a non-PED's world Bonds would be in the discussion)
CF: Cobb or Mays
RF: The Bambino

[Otis Nixon's Bodyguard]

Aaron wouldn't be my choice, but it's not totally ridiculous. No disrespect to Clemente, but he doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the discussion. Although the order changes periodically, my top ten list of outfielders currently looks like this:

1. Ruth
2. T. Williams
3. Cobb
4. Bonds
5. Mays
6. Musial
7. Aaron
8. Mantle
9. Speaker
10. F. Robinson

[BigRon]

If you put guys in the positions where they played most of their career, there are only 5 candidates:
LF T Williams and Bonds
CF Cobb and Mays
RF Ruth

Based purely on performance, I'll go with
LF Bonds ever so slightly over Williams
CF Cobb ever so slightly over Mays
RF Ruth

My second team would be
LF Williams
CF Mays
RF Aaron

and third team
LF Musial
CF Mantle slightly ahead of Speaker
RF F Robinson ever so slightly ahead of Ott

What the heck- fourth team
LF R Henderson
CF Speaker
RF Ott

[Otis Nixon's Bodyguard]

If you put guys in the positions where they played most of their career, there are only 5 candidates:
LF T Williams and Bonds
CF Cobb and Mays
RF Ruth

Based purely on performance, I'll go with
LF Bonds ever so slightly over Williams
CF Cobb ever so slightly over Mays
RF Ruth

My second team would be
LF Williams
CF Mays
RF Aaron

and third team
LF Musial
CF Mantle slightly ahead of Speaker
RF F Robinson ever so slightly ahead of Ott

What the heck- fourth team
LF R Henderson
CF Speaker
RF Ott

Good choices!

[swatman]

The only criterion I would use to select starting players would be greatest probability of contributing to a team win. Based on that, all 5 tools are required along with a competitive fierceness to do whatever it takes to win the game. Here are the picks based on that:

Mays (the best there ever was according to all who saw him, including me)
Cobb
Ruth
Frank Robinson
Aaron

Williams and Bonds? By his own admission, Williams had little interest in defense and did little to demonstrate otherwise.

I have TWICE seen Bonds, gold gloves and all, stand in his tracks, watch a presumed homer land in the field of play, and laxadaiscally jog over to pick it up -- as if hustling would somehow add to his embarassment. Since I do not live in the Bay area and did not generally see Bonds play, there is no telling how often he did this. The man was a hitting machine, but he played like a punk. Cobb and Frank Robinson (and Jackie, for that matter) would have physically beat the crap out of him. (For fun, imagine Billy Martin's reaction to one of those fielding ploys. How about Dimaggio?) I would not have him on my team, let alone put him in the lineup.

Mantle was not regarded by his contemporaries as a great fielder even in his prime. We are reminded of that on the MLB channel.

You take Williams, Bonds, and any of Ruth, Aaron, Cobb and Robinson. I will take any three of the remainder and beat the hell out of your team.

[BigRon]

I know it's been a couple of years since this thread drew interest, but I am a newcomer and can't help myself.

The only criterion I would use to select starting players would be greatest probability of contributing to a team win. Based on that, all 5 tools are required along with a competitive fierceness to do whatever it takes to win the game. Here are the picks based on that:

Mays (the best there ever was according to all who saw him, including me)
Cobb
Ruth
Frank Robinson
Aaron

Williams and Bonds? By his own admission, Williams had little interest in defense and did little to demonstrate otherwise.

I have TWICE seen Bonds, gold gloves and all, stand in his tracks, watch a presumed homer land in the field of play, and laxadaiscally jog over to pick it up -- as if hustling would somehow add to his embarassment. Since I do not live in the Bay area and did not generally see Bonds play, there is no telling how often he did this. The man was a hitting machine, but he played like a punk. Cobb and Frank Robinson (and Jackie, for that matter) would have physically beat the crap out of him. (For fun, imagine Billy Martin's reaction to one of those fielding ploys. How about Dimaggio?) I would not have him on my team, let alone put him in the lineup.

Mantle was not regarded by his contemporaries as a great fielder even in his prime. We are reminded of that on the MLB channel.

You take Williams, Bonds, and any of Ruth, Aaron, Cobb and Robinson. I will take any three of the remainder and beat the hell out of your team.

I think you're being too hard on Williams and Bonds. It certainly is true that Ted was not a good leftfielder, but neither was he bad. He learned to play the Green Monster well, and was certainly an adequate/average leftfielder for much of his career, at least until the mid-50s.

It is true that Bonds sometimes did not hustle on plays, but I believe that was an infrequent occurence. He had great speed for the first dozen years of his career, good judgement, and a very good glove. Had he been able to throw better he could have played CF for many teams. On balance, he was a very good defensive LFer, at least through about 2000.

And, if you're picking by position played- as I believe you should- who will you put in left field over Bonds and Williams?

[swatman]

Good points, particularly on Williams. I don't mean to be hard on him as he did bring a lot of intangibles to the team. I am just opining that any of the others in LF would give a team a better chance of a win -- that their greater defensive abilities would more than compensate for any (which I question) offensive deficiencies. I am sure you know that Ruth started as a CF when he started playing the OF regularly.

Generally, LFs have weaker arms and/or are weaker fielders than CFs and RFs. I am not aware of any CFs or RFs who did not have the potential to play LF better than most LFs.

My statements on Bonds stand. I don't know about Cobb, but any of the others had plenty of hustle and arm to throw out Bream in '92. As a Braves fan, I am thankful that Cabrera hit to Bonds. Point made about wanting winners regardless of their stats.

[Bill Burgess]

I think the critical question is whether or not you are using a Designated Hitter on this team. That really is a factor around which things hinge.

If your team will be using a DH, then it would make a lot of sense to put Ruth/Williams in that slot, to make room for a better glove on-field. If not, then the discussion is a different one.

In all my years here, the leading out-fielders have always been Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Williams, Speaker, Musial, Mantle, Aaron, DiMaggio, Bonds and Charleston, if one prefers.

On my present all time team, I have Cobb, Mays and Speaker with Ruth my DH. If I couldn't include a DH, I'd go Cobb, Ruth and Mays.

You say you can't stand Cobb?? Where the heck does that factor into the discussion? I might not care for Williams but intelligence requires me to include him.

[Tyrus4189Cobb]

Overall I don't see how the AT outfield can't include Cobb, Mays, and Ruth. With of without the DH spot they have to be in there. I would also put Williams in DH and have back-ups of Aaron and Mantle. But not only are Cobb, Mays, and Ruth the top three outfielders, they are the top three in the game IMO.

[swatman]

I think the critical question is whether or not you are using a Designated Hitter on this team. That really is a factor around which things hinge.

If your team will be using a DH, then it would make a lot of sense to put Ruth/Williams in that slot, to make room for a better glove on-field. If not, then the discussion is a different one.

In all my years here, the leading out-fielders have always been Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Williams, Speaker, Musial, Mantle, Aaron, DiMaggio, Bonds and Charleston, if one prefers.

On my present all time team, I have Cobb, Mays and Speaker with Ruth my DH. If I couldn't include a DH, I'd go Cobb, Ruth and Mays.

You say you can't stand Cobb?? Where the heck does that factor into the discussion? I might not care for Williams but intelligence requires me to include him.
If you are replying to me, I never said I couldn't stand Cobb (although it's true). I still want him on my side for any game I want to win.

I would contest Mantle being in any elite group. As any unbiased NY fan from the 50s can tell you, he was no. 3 in NY. Snider was a better clutch hitter, hit more homers in the 50s, and was a much better fielder with a better arm. Brooklyn fans would certainly support Musial being in the group.

Upon knowlegeable advice from my son, I am compelled to add Griffey, Jr. to the top list, certainly above Williams and Bonds. Only injuries preclude from putting him at the very top.

Unfortunately, only anecdotal cases can be made for Charleston, Stearnes and a couple of other other NNL stars, but many would want them starting on their teams.

[Bill Burgess]

I also can't stand Cobb.
I was not referring to you, swatman. I was referring to post #12.

[therealnod]

I think the critical question is whether or not you are using a Designated Hitter on this team. That really is a factor around which things hinge.
No team I'm choosing is going to ever use a DH if I'm setting the rules. I'm not sure I would even want to participate in a discussion involving the DH. Maybe I'm wrong about myself. :ughh





You say you can't stand Cobb?? Where the heck does that factor into the discussion? I might not care for Williams but intelligence requires me to include him.
My dislike of Cobb factors into the discussion in the way that I choose to basically ignore him, and have the decency to point that out. We've been over this before, Bill. I don't like Cobb, but I'd take him over Aaron...begrudgingly.

[RuthMayBond]

RF: Ruth
CF: Mays
LF: Cobb
DH: Williams
2B: Aaron
SS: MantleWith Foxx @ C and Honus @ 3B? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Bill Burgess]

No team I'm choosing is going to ever use a DH if I'm setting the rules. I'm not sure I would even want to participate in a discussion involving the DH. Maybe I'm wrong about myself. :ughh

My dislike of Cobb factors into the discussion in the way that I choose to basically ignore him, and have the decency to point that out. We've been over this before, Bill. I don't like Cobb, but I'd take him over Aaron...begrudgingly.
Fair enough. Everyone has the right to not like a particular player. I also have my personal prejudices. I just think that if one lets them go too far, it might weaken his team. For example, if I chose to ignore Babe Ruth, I'd only be weakening my team's outfield. That's all I'm saying.

And we are all similarly entitled to not use the DH. I happen to like it, but lots of people around here hate it. And that probably won't change in my lifetime.

Like I said, if I am playing without a DH, then I have to put the Babe back into my outfield, with Ty and Willie. With a DH, I like Ty, Willie and Tris, and Babe is my DH.

[BigRon]

If you are replying to me, I never said I couldn't stand Cobb (although it's true). I still want him on my side for any game I want to win.

I would contest Mantle being in any elite group. As any unbiased NY fan from the 50s can tell you, he was no. 3 in NY. Snider was a better clutch hitter, hit more homers in the 50s, and was a much better fielder with a better arm. Brooklyn fans would certainly support Musial being in the group.

Upon knowlegeable advice from my son, I am compelled to add Griffey, Jr. to the top list, certainly above Williams and Bonds. Only injuries preclude from putting him at the very top.

Unfortunately, only anecdotal cases can be made for Charleston, Stearnes and a couple of other other NNL stars, but many would want them starting on their teams.


Swatman- I grew up in the 50s. Duke Snider was my favorite player, so I appreciate the kind and mostly accurate comments from you about him. Duke WAS a better fielder than Mantle, and had a better arm. He was far better defensively than many in the BBF forum seem to realize.

That said, I must admit that Mantle was a greater player. He was not the god that some make him out to be, but in terms of peak performance he was one of the 5 or 6 or 7 greatest position players in ML history. Duke's peak is probably in the 30 range. Still great, but a notch below.

I would disagree with your assertion about Griffey. Actually, Ken Griffey basically is Duke Snider reincarnated, with the benefit of modern day medical/surgical techniques enabling him to continue to play. His skill set- and performance- closely matches Snider's. Only his longevity sets him apart from the Duke. Both were/are great players, but not quite on a level with the very best- including Mantle.

[therealnod]

Upon knowlegeable advice from my son, I am compelled to add Griffey, Jr. to the top list, certainly above Williams and Bonds.

No...no. Love The Kid, but no. I thought he would do it, but he didn't. Not even close. Didn't walk nearly enough. Everybody wanted Junior to do it, but he kept getting hurt. He didn't make it to the Inner Circle...and we were all so sure he would. It sucks. He's in the Hall, which is good enough. Reminds me of Mantle without the booze.

[Otis Nixon's Bodyguard]

I would contest Mantle being in any elite group. As any unbiased NY fan from the 50s can tell you, he was no. 3 in NY. Snider was a better clutch hitter, hit more homers in the 50s, and was a much better fielder with a better arm. Brooklyn fans would certainly support Musial being in the group.

How I'd rank Willie, Mickey, and The Duke:
1. Mays
2. Mantle
(several standard deviations)
3. Snider

Snider had a nice run, and deserves to be in the HOF, but he was no Mickey Mantle - not by a long shot.


Upon knowlegeable advice from my son, I am compelled to add Griffey, Jr. to the top list, certainly above Williams and Bonds. Only injuries preclude from putting him at the very top.

Griffey ahead of Williams and Bonds? No way. Pure and simple, Williams hit better than everyone except Ruth. There's too much of an offensive gap between Williams and Griffey for any defensive adjustments to make up for. Bonds, on the other hand, didn't give up much to Griffey on defense, and what he did, he made up for with his baserunning - Griffey somehow got a lot of credit for his speed, but Bonds was the one stealing 35-40 bases a year. I haven't even gotten into hitting yet - long before he starting using PEDs, Bonds was a superior hitter to Griffey, based mainly on his ability to draw so many walks. Add it all up and it's Bonds by a mile. Griffey was fun to watch, but he won't go down as a top ten player of all-time like Williams has and Bonds should.

[BigRon]

How I'd rank Willie, Mickey, and The Duke:
1. Mays
2. Mantle
(several standard deviations)
3. Snider

Snider had a nice run, and deserves to be in the HOF, but he was no Mickey Mantle - not by a long shot.



Griffey ahead of Williams and Bonds? No way. Pure and simple, Williams hit better than everyone except Ruth. There's too much of an offensive gap between Williams and Griffey for any defensive adjustments to make up for. Bonds, on the other hand, didn't give up much to Griffey on defense, and what he did, he made up for with his baserunning - Griffey somehow got a lot of credit for his speed, but Bonds was the one stealing 35-40 bases a year. I haven't even gotten into hitting yet - long before he starting using PEDs, Bonds was a superior hitter to Griffey, based mainly on his ability to draw so many walks. Add it all up and it's Bonds by a mile. Griffey was fun to watch, but he won't go down as a top ten player of all-time like Williams has and Bonds should.

Otis- while I agree that Mantle was a greater player than Snider, I think it is unfair to characterize the difference as several orders of magnitude. Perhaps just a bit of hyperbole on your part?

In most lifetime rate stats, Mantle is ahead and measurably so, but not by a landslide. Lifetime BA is .0026 higher. ISO is .159 to .145. HR rate per AB, 6.6% to 5.7%. Mick's great advantage, of course, is OBA- .420 to .380, driving a much higher OPS+- 172 to 140. Mick was patient enough to walk when teams tried to pitch around him, and that's to his credit.

At peak Mantle also was better, but Snider was excellent. My view is that during his peak seasons, Mantle was one of the 5 or 6 or 7 greatest players in ML history, while Duke was around number 30 or so. Definite difference, but Snider was a very high level player in his prime, which was curtailed by a serious knee injury.

Duke definitely was a better CFer than Mantle. He was an instinctive fielder with great judgement, great glove, and outstanding arm. Mantle was a good CFer before injuries did him in, Snider was an outstanding CFer before injuries did him in.

Snider had higher doubles + triples rates than Mantle. Interestingly, Mantle for all his power and speed, didn't hit a lot of doubles.

Mickey was blindingly fast for the first 8 or 9 seasons, but Duke also ran very well for his first 8 or 9 seasons- not as well as Mickey, but Duke was noted as an outstanding baserunner.


Mantle, of course, had a platoon edge as a switch hitter. However, during the last third of his career his abilities as a lefthanded batter diminished greatly- due, I think, to a knee injury. Mantle probably should have stopped switch hitting around 1962 or so. He retained grreat power lefthanded for several more seasons, but rapidly lost ability to make contact. Duke often struggled against lefthanders, especially late in his career when he saw them rarely. however, due to the imbalanced Dodger lineup Duke just didn't see lefties often. He did hit over .300 against lefties several years, though.

Snider is a true and almost perfect comparable to Griffey Jr., except that Griffey has had the miracles of modern medicine to enable him to keep playing after serious injuries. Their talents and performances are almost identical, except that Jr. has been able to play more/longer.

So, I agree- Mantle was better than Snider- and Griffey Jr. However, the differences are somewhat less glaring than you imply.

[therealnod]

Griffey has had the miracles of modern medicine to enable him to keep playing after serious injuries.
Really? I don't recall any miracle surgery Junior had...I don't recall any surgery at all.

[swatman]

Big Ron,
That is a very fair assessment of Snider and Mantle. Before I get to my main point, let me say that my comparison was based on their joint NY years; while Snider was in NY, I would start him over Mantle. Discuss that among yourselves.

Main point: Snider does not belong among the elite. I only brought him into the discussion as a comparable to Mantle to emphasize that Mantle does not either.

I defer to you SABR experts, but it seems that 11 of Jr's first 12 years were pretty productive, and his defense was unparalleled. The "miracles of modern medicine" have kept him in the game the last 10 years, but his numbers clearly have not been at the same level.

My last statement about Bonds: Take away 2001 - 2004 when he was certainly chemically enhanced (and 2000 looks to be the same but not quite so definitively), add back in averages of his other better years, and his numbers are more comparable to Griffey. As I stated in my other posts, I believe his mentality is incompatible with a winning team, and that takes him off any consideration for the best. He just does not have the 6th tool -- do what it takes to win and make your teammates better as well.

[RuthMayBond]

I defer to you SABR experts, but it seems that 11 of Jr's first 12 years were pretty productive, and his defense was unparalleled.His defense was parallelled and exceeded.

<My last statement about Bonds: Take away 2001 - 2004 when he was certainly chemically enhanced (and 2000 looks to be the same but not quite so definitively), add back in averages of his other better years, and his numbers are more comparable to Griffey. As I stated in my other posts, I believe his mentality is incompatible with a winning team, and that takes him off any consideration for the best. He just does not have the 6th tool -- do what it takes to win and make your teammates better as well.>

Ah, the old intangibles

[Bill Burgess]

His defense was parallelled and exceeded.
Well, that is true if you are referring to Andruw Jones or Torii Hunter. Maybe Mike Cameron, Jim Edmonds or Mark Kotsay.

[BigRon]

Really? I don't recall any miracle surgery Junior had...I don't recall any surgery at all.

Well, Griffey suffered a complete rupture of his right hamstring in August 2004 against the Giants. Expreimental surgery was performed- 3 titanium screws were used to re-attach his hamstring.

Without this surgery- unavailable to previous generations of players- Griffey's career would have been over at that point. But, he's still playing and compiling, 5 years later.

[RuthMayBond]

Well, that is true if you are referring to Andruw Jones or Torii Hunter. Maybe Mike Cameron, Jim Edmonds or Mark Kotsay.It's also true if I am referring to Beltran and Lofton, and that's just among (basically) active players.

[BigRon]

Well, Griffey suffered a complete rupture of his right hamstring in August 2004 against the Giants. Expreimental surgery was performed- 3 titanium screws were used to re-attach his hamstring.

Without this surgery- unavailable to previous generations of players- Griffey's career would have been over at that point. But, he's still playing and compiling, 5 years later.

To build on this a little: if Griffey's career had ended in 2004- as it surely would have without MODERN SURGICAL TECHNIQUES- here's how he and Snider would have compared offensively.

PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB BA OBA SA OPS+
Griffey 8517 7379 1320 2156 400 56 501 1444 984 292 377 560 144

Snider 8237 7161 1259 2116 358 85 407 1333 971 295 380 540 140

Can't get much closer than that. And, when you adjust for era offenses, it's even closer. Since Griffey played in an era that produuced about 9.5% more HRS, Snider's comparable HR totals could reasonably be assumed to be about 446, plus small increases in other counting and rate stats.

Give Griffey credit for coming back and playing reasonably well after a serious injury. But, wouldn't have happened if he played 30 or 40 or 50 years ago.

Griffey's been a great player, but not as great as the best OFers. And, he really hasn't been much- if any- better than Duke Snider, big career counting stats not withstanding.

[swatman]

OK, I got overenthusiastic with the fielding superlative for Jr. Thanks all for bringing me back to reality. I should have said unsurpassed -- although that could be contested as well, it would not have been as weak an assertion.

I accept Jones, Edmunds and Hunter, don't care enough about the others to debate them. Puckett was pretty good too.

[torez77]

If I'm playing with a DH, my all-time OF would be Cobb in LF, Mays in CF, and Ruth in RF. Williams would be my DH. Without a DH, I'd be inclined to go with Williams in LF, Cobb in CF, Ruth in RF to have the best offense possible, though I'd be sacrificing defense without Mays.

:lightbulb: I know! How 'bout Williams in LF, Mays in CF, Cobb in RF, and Ruth at P?

[Bill Burgess]

If I'm playing with a DH, my all-time OF would be Cobb in LF, Mays in CF, and Ruth in RF. Williams would be my DH. Without a DH, I'd be inclined to go with Williams in LF, Cobb in CF, Ruth in RF to have the best offense possible, though I'd be sacrificing defense without Mays.

:lightbulb: I know! How 'bout Williams in LF, Mays in CF, Cobb in RF, and Ruth at P?
If you wanted to, you could even put Babe at 1B. He could have handled it beautifully.

[torez77]

If you wanted to, you could even put Babe at 1B. He could have handled it beautifully.

That'd probably be the smarter move. That way, I'd get the fullest production out of his bat.

I was trying to cheat and have Ruth be the pitcher he was in the '10s AND the hitter he was in the '20s simultaneously. :happy:

[Second Base Coach]

Good question here. If we don't care about the batting order, or who else is on the team (Rickey Henderson would rank higher if you consider those factors)... then you would have to go with these three fellows just because of how they hit:

Williams
Cobb
Ruth

But I am not sure they would win that many more games over a team with these fellows who are among those atop the HR list:

Bonds
Mays
Aaron

Or even a team with three Yankees in the outfield:

Henderson
DiMaggio
Mantle

Or some leftover National Leaguers:

Musial
Snider
Ott

Or American Leaguers:

Joe Jackson
Speaker
Frank Robinson (yeah I know he played in Cincy for a time)

And who is to say these guys weren't the best? YOU never saw them play:

Pete Browning
Ed Delahanty
Billy Hamilton

And let's not forget some guys who are still playing:

Manny Ramirez
Ken Griffey Jr.
Gary Sheffield
Vlad Guerrero

And if you give me a great infield, maybe I can win with only a little power in the outfield:

Rickey Henderson
Al Simmons
Roberty Clemente

What in the name of Wahoo Sam Crawford do we have here?

A tough choice. But you just hear so much about about Williams, Cobb, and Ruth.... Willie Mays makes it if we play a little Church League Softball instead.

I'll bet on those guys. (Insert your favorite <outfielder> Pete Rose reference here).

[RyanExpress30]

LF Bonds
CF Mays
RF Ruth

[RuthMayBond]

LF Bonds
CF Mays
RF RuthThat is one AWESOME trio :bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:

[Bill Burgess]

LF Bonds
CF Mays
RF Ruth
Kinda reminds one of someone's user-name. What's-his-name?

[jaxxr]

There are qualifications I guess, a DH being used, an all star game or a full 154/162 game season, each aspect can change the picks a bit.

I'll give my choices via a regular season , no DH, and I shall not include supected PED users, and will put guys in their "normal" spots..

RF = Ruth, his run production produces a far greater net runs,than those who might save a few more runs, like Aaron or great defender Kaline.
CF = Mays, his combination of defense, offense, and injury free play, something most may overlook, make him the pick, over better hittng Mantle, and other good all around CFers, Cobb, DiMaggio and Speaker.
LF = T Williams, again offensive run production will overcome the defensive advantage of Joe Jackson or Ed Delahanty, and Musial is lacking HR power in comparison to Ted.

[RuthMayBond]

Kinda reminds one of someone's user-name. What's-his-name?That moron who has the biggest mouth here.
And you can quote me on that

[AstrosFan]

LF Bonds
CF Mays
RF Ruth


Kinda reminds one of someone's user-name. What's-his-name?


That moron who has the biggest mouth here.
And you can quote me on that

Done and done.

[RuthMayBond]

Done and done.
Did you mean,
dumb and dumb(er)?

[Bennybosox]

1. Mays
2. Ruth
3. Williams
4. Clemente
5. Bonds
6. Mantle
7. Griffey
8. Aaron
9. Cobb
10. Dimaggio

[RuthMayBond]

1. Mays
2. Ruth
3. Williams
4. Clemente
5. Bonds
6. Mantle
7. Griffey
8. Aaron
9. Cobb
10. DimaggioIt would be hard to drive a ball that drops among all these guys, but Clemente FIVE spots above Cobb? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[BigRon]

1. Mays
2. Ruth
3. Williams
4. Clemente
5. Bonds
6. Mantle
7. Griffey
8. Aaron
9. Cobb
10. Dimaggio

Everybody's got a list and a reaon for it. I've got Clemente among my top 20-25 outfielders of all time, but number 4?

I'd be interested in why you place him so high.

[AstrosFan]

1. Mays
2. Ruth
3. Williams
4. Clemente
5. Bonds
6. Mantle
7. Griffey
8. Aaron
9. Cobb
10. Dimaggio

Please move Cobb up. It's nothing against you or your post, everyone's entitled to their opinion. I just don't want Bill Burgess to have a heart attack. I like him.

[RuthMayBond]

Please move Cobb up. It's nothing against you or your post, everyone's entitled to their opinion. I just don't want Bill Burgess to have a heart attack. I like him.
Bill?
Bill??
Bill???
SAY SOMETHING!!!

[sandy1]

Starting Outfield

LF - Bonds
CF - Mays
RF - Ruth

2nd outfield

LF - Williams
CF - Cobb
RF - Aaron

[Bill Burgess]

That moron who has the biggest mouth here.
And you can quote me on that
Hey, watch how you talk about one of our finest members, and one of my closest friends!

He might be a tad loquacious for some folks' tastes, but have you ever noticed how he is almost always right? Almost like a baseball almanac. Took a lot of reading in his formative years, I'll assure you. He didn't get his head stuffed with that much baseball trivia by laying around drinking Budweiser and watching cartoons!

[RuthMayBond]

Hey, watch how you talk about one of our finest members, and one of my closest friends!I'll say it to his face if I ever find him :rant::grouchy

<but have you ever noticed how he is almost always right? Almost like a baseball almanac. He didn't get his head stuffed with that much baseball trivia by watching cartoons!>

Makes me wonder if you know him at all ;)

[Bill Burgess]

1. Mays
2. Ruth
3. Williams
4. Clemente
5. Bonds
6. Mantle
7. Griffey
8. Aaron
9. Cobb
10. Dimaggio
I'd love to see the notes that led you to your conclusions. Have to admit my eyebrows lifted a level or two when I noticed this list.

My pals are all laughing because once upon a time, I got myself associated with Cobb and have never been able to shake the association. I've moved on, of course, to baseball photos, but no one seems to have noticed my most recent obsession.

Good work, Bennybosox. Nice job.

[Bill Burgess]

Makes me wonder if you know him at all ;)
Greatest guy on Fever. And the most mis-understood. But he enjoys the controversy. Some folks were born to crave the smell of battle. Something in the genes. I know him better than he knows himself.

[RuthMayBond]

Greatest guy on Fever. And the most mis-understood.Good description of you (and obviously the new picture guy, ex-Cobbster ;)

<Some folks were born to crave the smell of battle.>

I think I have the smell part