BBF Progressive Hall of Fame Election: 1947

[Ace Venom]

PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING!

Format and Rules
Voting Rules: Voters may vote for between 0-15 candidates. Votes will be made public, and voters are encouraged to post their ballots in the thread and not view results before voting. PLEASE LIMIT YOUR BALLOT TO 15 VOTES AT MOST. EXCESS VOTES MAY RESULT IN YOUR BALLOT BEING DISQUALIFIED.
-Blank Ballots: A "None of the Above" option is available if you believe no one is worthy and you wish to submit a blank ballot. This option is not to be taken lightly and it is strongly urged that it be used only after the utmost consideration, as non-votes carry great weight. Additionally, if using this option, please post your rationale.

Voting Criteria: Players are to be evaluated within the context of the era in which they played and the history of the game to that point. Players are not to be held to standards that would materialize at a time beyond the year of the current election. Modern statistical analysis is permitted but must be applied strictly within historical context not to go beyond the year of the current election. Players are to be judged based solely on their playing careers. Other, non-playing contributions may be considered to the extent that they coincided with a player's playing career (such as a player/manager).

Thoughtfulness and Editing Ballots: Please review and thoughtfully consider the candidates before voting, and make sure you have accurately filled out your ballot before submitting. Requests for editing ballots after the fact will generally not be honored. Exceptions might be made if a voter accidentally voted for the wrong player or accidentally went over the voting limit (but I strongly encourage you to do your best to prevent either from happening).

Required Support: Players receiving at least 75% support in an election will be elected. Players need at least 5% support to appear on the next ballot.

Player Eligibility: Players eligible for an election will have last played at least 5 years prior to the election year and have appeared in at least 10 Major League seasons . If a player appeared in less than 10 seasons, he may still be eligible if he had a minimum of 3000 PAs or 1500 IP, though extra scrutiny will be applied. Players will remain on the ballot for 15 years, provided they continue to receive at least 5% of the vote, at which point they will become indefinitely eligible for periodic elections conducted by the Veterans Committee.
- Age Exception: For players 40 or older, they will become eligible the later of either 5 years after their last year of continuous play, or their first inactive year at age 45 or older.
- Death Exception: For players who meet the criteria for consideration, but die before their first year of eligibility can have the five year waiting period waived and placed on the ballot the year of death.

Election Period: Elections will close exactly one week after starting. The next election might not commence for another day or two.

1947 Guide
There are 30 candidates on the 1947 ballot - 21 holdovers and 9 first timers. First time eligible players last played in 1942 (unless qualifying under the age or death rule).

Newly Eligible (9)
Elden Auker
Clint Brown
Bruce Campbell
Larry French
Charlie Gehringer
Ted Lyons
Eric McNair
Red Rolfe
Billy Werber

Holdovers (21)
Player Year of Eligibility Previous Support High Support Low Support
Earl Averill 2nd 74.07% 74.07% (1946) 74.07% (1946)
Dave Bancroft 13th 11.11% 28.13% (1936) 8.82% (1940)
Wally Berger 3rd 48.15% 51.72% (1945) 48.15% (1946)
Jim Bottomley 6th 22.22% 27.59% (1945) 22.22% (1946)
Earle Combs 8th 14.81% 24.14% (1945) 11.76% (1940)
Kiki Cuyler 5th 33.33% 55.17% (1945) 33.33% (1946)
Wes Ferrell 2nd 51.85% 51.85% (1946) 51.85% (1946)
Burleigh Grimes 9th 48.15% 58.62% (1945) 48.15% (1946)
Babe Herman 6th 11.11% 20.00% (1943) 11.11% (1943)
Tony Lazzeri 4th 29.63% 37.93% (1945) 29.63% (1944)
Heinie Manush 4th 29.63% 34.48% (1945) 29.63% (1946)
Rabbit Maranville 10th 66.67% 68.97% (1945) 56.76% (1942)
Carl Mays 14th 48.15% 56.25% (1937) 37.84% (1942)
Buddy Myer 2nd 11.11% 11.11% (1946) 11.11% (1946)
Sam Rice 9th 59.26% 71.43% (1941) 52.26% (1946)
Eppa Rixey 10th 37.04% 60.00% (1938) 37.04% (1946)
Ray Schalk 14th 14.81% 25.00% (1934) 6.67% (1943)
Wally Schang 12th 37.04% 42.86% (1941) 32.35% (1937)
Urban Schocker 15th 40.74% 44.83% (1945) 15.63% (1939)
Hack Wilson 9th 51.85% 57.14% (1941) 40.74% (1944)

Holdovers Dropped From Last Election (3)
Player Reason Years on Ballot High Support Low Support
Waite Hoyt Lack of Support 4 17.24% (1945) 3.70% (1946)

Last Year of Eligibility (1)
Player High Support
Urban Shocker 44.83% (1945)


Penultimate Year of Eligibility (2)
Player High Support
Carl Mays 56.25% (1937)
Ray Schalk 25.00% (1934)


Holdovers Receiving At Least 50% in Previous Election (5)
Player Previous Support Years with At Least 50% Support
Earl Averill 74.07% 1
Dizzy Dean 70.37% 1
Wes Ferrell 51.85% 1
Rabbit Maranville 66.67% 9
Sam Rice 59.26% 8
Hack Wilson 51.85% 4

Hall of Famers
Players Elected - 97
Player Year Elected Election Percentage Years on Ballot Position Primary Team Active Years Total Seasons Living/Deceased Age at Election
Pete Alexander 1935 93.94% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1911-1930 20 Living - Age 60 48
Cap Anson 1902 100% 1 First Base Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1871-1897 27 Deceased (1852-1922) 50
Frank Baker 1927 96.43% 1 Third Base Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1908-1914, 1916-1919, 1921-1922 13 Living - Age 59 41
Ross Barnes^ 1911 76.00% 11 Second Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879, 1881 9 Deceased (1850-1915) 61
Jake Beckley 1917 76.00% 6 First Base Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1887-1907 20 Deceased (1867-1918) 50
Charlie Bennett 1907 75.00% 7 Catcher Detroit Wolverines (NL) 1878, 1880-1893 15 Deceased (1854-1927) 53
Roger Bresnahan 1925 79.17% 6 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1897, 1900-1915 17 Deceased (1879-1944) 46
Dan Brouthers 1901 90.00% 1 First Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1896, 1904 18 Deceased (1858-1932) 50
Mordecai Brown 1921 96.77% 1 Pitcher Chicago Cubs (NL) 1903-1916 14 Living - Age 71 45
Pete Browning 1909 77.27% 9 Left Field/Center Field Louisville Colonels (NL/AA) 1882-1894 13 Deceased (1861-1905) Deceased
Jesse Burkett 1910 92.00% 1 Left Field Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1890-1895 16 Living - Age 79 42
Max Carey 1934 82.14% 1 Center Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1910-1929 20 Living - Age 57 44
Bob Caruthers 1909 77.27% 9 Pitcher/Right Field St. Louis Browns (Cardinals) (NL/AA) 1884-1893 10 Deceased (1864-1911) 45
Frank Chance 1932 83.33% 14 First Base Chicago Cubs (NL) 1898-1914 17 Deceased (1876-1924) Deceased
Cupid Childs 1920 76.92% 15 Second Base Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1888, 1890-1901 13 Deceased (1867-1912) Deceased
Fred Clarke 1917 88.00% 1 Left Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1894-1915 21 Living - Age 77 45
John Clarkson 1901 90.00% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1882, 1884-1894 12 Deceased (1861-1909) 40
Ty Cobb 1933 96.55% 1 Center Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1905-1928 24 Living - Age 61 47
Mickey Cochrane 1942 89.19% 1 Catcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1925-1937 13 Living - Age 43 38
Eddie Collins 1935 96.67% 1 Second Base Chicago White Sox (AL) 1906-1930 25 Living - Age 59 48
Jimmy Collins 1913 82.61% 1 Third Base Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1895-1908 14 Deceased (1870-1943) 43
Roger Connor 1902 79.17% 1 First Base New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Deceased (1857-1931) 45
Stan Coveleski 1934 89.29% 2 Pitcher Cleveland Indians (AL) 1912, 1916-1928 14 Living - Age 58 45
Sam Crawford 1922 92.86% 1 Right Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1899-1917 19 Living - Age 67 41
Bill Dahlen 1916 88.00% 1 Shortstop Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1891-1911 21 Living - Age 77 46
George Davis 1914 84.62% 1 Shortstop New York Giants (NL) 1890-1909 20 Deceased (1870-1940) 44
Ed Delahanty 1908 96.00% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1903 16 Deceased (1867-1903) Deceased
Larry Doyle 1926 76.00% 2 Second Base New York Giants (NL) 1907-1920 14 Living - Age 61 40
Hugh Duffy 1918 75.00% 8 Center Field/Outfield Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1888-1891, 1904-1906 17 Living - Age 80 52
Buck Ewing 1902 83.33% 1 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Deceased (1859-1906) 43
Red Faber 1940 76.46% 3 Pitcher Chicago White Sox (AL) 1914-1933 20 Living - Age 59 52
Elmer Flick 1916 80.00% 1 Right Field Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1898-1910 13 Living - Age 71 40
Frankie Frisch 1942 91.89% 1 Second Base New York Giants (NL) 1919-1937 19 Living - Age 48 43
Pud Galvin 1903 80.77% 3 Pitcher Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1875, 1879-1892 15 Deceased (1856-1902) Deceased
Lou Gehrig 1944 100% 1 First Base New York Yankees (AL) 1923-1939 17 Deceased (1903-1941) Deceased
Jack Glasscock 1911 84.00% 11 Shortstop Cleveland Blues (NL) 1879-1895 17 Deceased (1857-1947) 54
George Gore 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1879-1892 14 Deceased (1867-1933) 52
Goose Goslin 1943 93.33% 1 Left Field Washington Senators (NL) 1921-1938 18 Living - Age 46 42
Clark Griffith* 1940 (VC) 78.57% VC Pitcher Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1891, 1893-1909, 1912-1914 20 Living - Age 77 70
Heinie Groh 1936 81.25% 5 Third Base Cincinnati Reds (NL) 1912-1927 16 Living - Age 58 47
Lefty Grove 1946 100% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1925-1941 17 Living - Age 47 46
Billy Hamilton 1906 82.61% 1 Center Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1901 14 Deceased (1866-1940) 40
Gabby Hartnett 1946 96.30% 1 Catcher Chicago Cubs (NL) 1922-1941 20 Living - Age 47 46
Harry Heilmann 1937 96.18% 1 Right Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1914, 1916-1930, 1932 17 Living - Age 52 43
Paul Hines 1904 76.00% 4 Center Field Providence Grays (NL) 1872-1891 20 Deceased (1855-1935) 49
Rogers Hornsby 1942 97.30% 1 Second Base St. Louis Cardinals (NL) 1915-1937 23 Living - Age 50 45
Hughie Jennings 1927 75.00% 14 Shortstop Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1891-1903, 1907, 1909, 1912, 1918 17 Deceased (1869-1928) 58
Walter Johnson 1932 100% 1 Pitcher Washington Senators (AL) 1907-1927 21 Deceased (1887-1946) 45
Addie Joss 1926 76.00% 15 Pitcher Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1902-1910 9 Deceased (1880-1911) Deceased
Tim Keefe 1901 75.00% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1893 14 Deceased (1857-1933) 44
Willie Keeler 1916 92.00% 2 Right Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1892-1910 19 Deceased (1872-1923) 44
Joe Kelley 1920 84.62% 8 Left Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1891-1906, 1908 17 Deceased (1871-1943) 49
King Kelly 1902 75.00% 2 Right Field/Catcher Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1878-1893 16 Deceased (1857-1894) Deceased
Napoleon Lajoie 1921 96.77% 1 Second Base Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1896-1916 21 Living - Age 73 47
Tommy Leach* 1940 (VC) 85.71% VC Third Base/Center Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1898-1915, 1918 19 Living - Age 70 63
Herman Long* 1925 (VC) 75.00% VC Shortstop Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1889-1904 16 Deceased (1866-1909) Deceased
Sherry Magee 1924 86.21% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1904-1919 16 Deceased (1884-1929) 40
Christy Mathewson 1922 93.55% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1900-1916 17 Deceased (1880-1925) 41
Joe McGinnity 1913 91.30% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1899-1908 10 Deceased (1871-1929) 42
Bid McPhee 1905 75.00% 2 Second Base Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1882-1899 18 Deceased (1859-1943) 42
Cal McVey*^ 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Catcher/First Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879 9 Deceased (1849-1926) 71
Tony Mullane 1908 80.00% 8 Pitcher Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1881-1894 14 Deceased (1859-1944) 49
Kid Nichols 1911 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1890-1901, 1904-1906 15 Living - Age 78 42
Jim O'Rourke 1901 90.00% 1 Left Field/Utility New York Giants (NL) 1872-1893, 1904 23 Deceased (1850-1919) 51
Dickey Pearce*^ 1920 (VC) 100% VC Shortstop Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) 1871-1877 6 Deceased (1836-1908) Deceased
Lip Pike*^ 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Center Field Baltimore Canaries (NA) 1871-1878, 1881, 1887 10 Deceased (1845-1926) Deceased
Eddie Plank 1922 92.86% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1901-1917 17 Deceased (1875-1926) 47
Charley Radbourn 1901 95.00% 1 Pitcher Providence Grays (NL) 1881-1891 11 Deceased (1854-1897) Deceased
Hardy Richardson* 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC Second Base/Left Field Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1892 14 Deceased (1855-1931) 65
Edd Roush 1943 76.67% 1 Center Field Cincinnati Reds (NL) 1913-1929, 1931 18 Living - Age 53 49
Amos Rusie 1906 78.26% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1889-1895, 1897-1898, 1901 10 Deceased (1871-1942) 35
Babe Ruth 1940 97.06% 1 Right Field/Left Field New York Yankees (AL) 1914-1935 22 Living - Age 51 45
Jimmy Ryan* 1930 (VC) 86.67% VC Center Field Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1885-1900, 1902, 1903 18 Deceased (1863-1923) Deceased
Joe Sewell 1942 75.68% 5 Shortstop/Third Base Cleveland Indians (AL) 1920-1933 14 Living - Age 48 43
Jimmy Sheckard* 1945 (VC) 83.33% VC Left Field Chicago Cubs (NL) 1897-1913 17 Deceased (1878-1947) 67
George Sisler 1935 90.91% 1 First Base St. Louis Browns (AL) 1915-1922, 1924-1930 15 Living - Age 53 42
Al Spalding^ 1915 80.00% 15 Pitcher Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1878 8 Deceased (1850-1915) Deceased
Tris Speaker 1933 100% 1 Center Field Cleveland Indians (AL) 1907-1928 22 Living - Age 59 45
Joe Start*^ 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC First Base Providence Grays (NL) 1871-1886 16 Deceased (1842-1927) 78
Harry Stovey 1907 75.00% 7 Left Field/First Base Philadelphia Athletics (AA) 1880-1893 14 Deceased (1856-1931) 51
Ezra Sutton* 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Third Base Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1871-1888 18 Deceased (1850-1907) Deceased
Bill Terry 1941 80.00% 1 First Base New York Giants (NL) 1923-1936 14 Living - Age 48 43
Sam Thompson 1907 79.17% 5 Right Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1885-1898, 1906 14 Deceased (1860-1922) 47
Pie Traynor 1942 83.78% 1 Third Base Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1920-1937 18 Living - Age 46 42
Dazzy Vance 1940 76.47% 1 Pitcher Brooklyn Robins (Dodgers) (NL) 1915, 1918, 1922-1935 16 Living - Age 55 48
George Van Haltren 1918 75.00% 11 Center Field New York Giants (NL) 1887-1903 17 Deceased (1866-1945) 52
Rube Waddell 1915 84.00% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1897, 1899-1910 13 Deceased (1876-1914) Deceased
Honus Wagner 1922 92.86% 1 Shortstop Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1897-1917 21 Living - Age 73 48
Bobby Wallace 1925 75.00% 3 Shortstop St. Louis Browns (AL) 1894-1918 25 Living - Age 72 52
Ed Walsh 1922 89.29% 1 Pitcher Chicago White Sox (AL) 1904-1917 14 Living - Age 66 41
John Ward 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop/Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1878-1894 17 Deceased (1860-1925) 47
Mickey Welch* 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1892 13 Deceased (1859-1941) 61
Zack Wheat 1932 87.50% 1 Left Field Brooklyn Robins (Dodgers) (NL) 1909-1927 10 Living - Age 59 44
Deacon White 1904 76.00% 4 Catcher/Third Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1871-1890 20 Deceased (1847-1939) 57
Vic Willis 1919 77.78% 5 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1898-1910 13 Deceased (1876-1947) 43
George Wright^ 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1882 12 Deceased (1847-1937) 60
Cy Young 1916 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1890-1911 22 Living - Age 80 49

* = Elected by Veterans Committee
^ = Played Significantly Prior to 1871

Players Elected by Primary Position
Catcher (7): Charlie Bennett, Roger Bresnahan, Mickey Cochrane, Buck Ewing, Gabby Hartnett, Cal McVey, Deacon White
First Base (8): Cap Anson, Jake Beckley, Dan Brouthers, Frank Chance, Roger Connor, Lou Gehrig, George Sisler, Joe Start, Bill Terry
Second Base (9): Ross Barnes, Cupid Childs, Eddie Collins, Larry Doyle, Frankie Frisch, Rogers Hornsby, Napoleon Lajoie, Bid McPhee, Hardy Richardson
Third Base (6): Frank Baker, Jimmy Collins, Heinie Groh, Tommy Leach, Ezra Sutton, Pie Traynor
Shortstop (11): Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Jack Glasscock, Hughie Jennings, Herman Long, Dickey Pearce, Joe Sewell, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, John Ward, George Wright
Left Field (10): Jesse Burkett, Fred Clarke, Ed Delahanty, Goose Goslin, Joe Kelley, Sherry Magee, Jim O'Rourke, Jimmy Sheckard, Harry Stovey, Zack Wheat
Center Field (12): Pete Browning, Max Carey, Ty Cobb, Hugh Duffy, George Gore, Billy Hamilton, Paul Hines, Lip Pike, Edd Roush, Jimmy Ryan, Tris Speaker, George Van Haltren
Right Field (7): Sam Crawford, King Kelly, Elmer Flick, Harry Heilmann, Willie Keeler, Babe Ruth, Sam Thompson
Pitcher (26): Pete Alexander, Mordecai Brown, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Stan Coveleski, Red Faber, Pud Galvin, Clark Griffith, Lefty Grove, Walter Johnson, Addie Joss, Tim Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Tony Mullane, Kid Nichols, Eddie Plank, Charley Radbourn, Amos Rusie, Al Spalding, Dazzy Vance, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh, Mickey Welch, Vic Willis, Cy Young

Players Elected by Year
1901 (5): Dan Brouthers, John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn
1902 (4): Cap Anson, Roger Connor, Buck Ewing, King Kelly
1903 (1): Pud Galvin
1904 (2): Paul Hines, Deacon White
1905 (1): Bid McPhee
1906 (2): Billy Hamilton, Amos Rusie
1907 (5): Charlie Bennett, Harry Stovey, Sam Thompson, John Ward, George Wright
1908 (2): Ed Delahanty, Tony Mullane
1909 (3): Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, George Gore
1910 (1): Jesse Burkett
1911 (3): Ross Barnes, Jack Glasscock, Kid Nichols
1912 (0):
1913 (2): Jimmy Collins, Joe McGinnity
1914 (1): George Davis
1915 (2): Al Spalding, Rube Waddell
1916 (4): Bill Dahlen, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Cy Young
1917 (2): Jake Beckley, Fred Clarke
1918 (2): Hugh Duffy, George Van Haltren
1919 (1): Vic Willis
1920 (2): Cupid Childs, Joe Kelley
- 1920 VC (7): Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Hardy Richardson, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Mickey Welch
1921 (3): Mordecai Brown, Napoleon Lajoie, Christy Mathewson
1922 (4): Sam Crawford, Eddie Plank, Honus Wagner, Ed Walsh
1923 (0):
1924 (1): Sherry Magee
1925 (2): Roger Bresnahan, Bobby Wallace
- 1925 VC (1): Herman Long
1926 (1): Larry Doyle
1927 (2): Frank Baker, Hughie Jennings
1928 (0):
1929 (1): Addie Joss
1930 (0):
- 1930 VC (1): Jimmy Ryan
1931 (0):
1932 (3): Frank Chance, Walter Johnson, Zack Wheat
1933 (2): Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker
1934 (2): Max Carey, Stan Coveleski
1935 (3): Pete Alexander, Eddie Collins, George Sisler
- 1935 VC (0):
1936 (1): Heinie Groh
1937 (1): Harry Heilmann
1938 (0):
1939 (0):
1940 (3): Red Faber, Babe Ruth, Dazzy Vance
- 1940 VC (2): Clark Griffith, Tommy Leach
1941 (1): Bill Terry
1942 (5): Mickey Cochrane, Frankie Frisch, Rogers Hornsby, Joe Sewell, Pie Traynor
1943 (2): Goose Goslin, Edd Roush
1944 (1): Lou Gehrig
1945 (0):
- 1945 VC (1): Jimmy Sheckard
1946 (2): Lefty Grove, Gabby Hartnett

Players Elected by Primary Decade
1870s (9): Ross Barnes, Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Al Spalding, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Deacon White, George Wright
1880s (21): Cap Anson, Charlie Bennett, Dan Brouthers, Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Roger Conner, Buck Ewing, Pud Galvin, Jack Glasscock, George Gore, Paul Hines, Tim Keefe, King Kelly, Tony Mullane, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn, Hardy Richardson, Harry Stovey, John Ward, Mickey Welch
1890s (18): Jake Beckley, Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs, Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Ed Delahanty, Hugh Duffy, Clark Griffith, Billy Hamilton, Hughie Jennings, Joe Kelley, Herman Long, Bid McPhee, Kid Nichols, Jimmy Ryan, Amos Rusie, Sam Thompson, George Van Haltren
1900s (21): Roger Bresnahan, Mordecai Brown, Frank Chance, Fred Clarke, Jimmy Collins, Sam Crawford, Elmer Flick, Addie Joss, Willie Keeler, Napoleon Lajoie, Tommy Leach, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Eddie Plank, Jimmy Sheckard, Rube Waddell, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, Ed Walsh, Vic Willis, Cy Young
1910s (11): Pete Alexander, Frank Baker, Max Carey, Ty Cobb, Eddie Collins, Larry Doyle, Heinie Groh, Walter Johnson, Sherry Magee, Tris Speaker, Zack Wheat
1920s (12): Stan Coveleski, Red Faber, Frankie Frisch, Goose Goslin, Harry Heilmann, Rogers Hornsby, Edd Roush, Babe Ruth, George Sisler, Joe Sewell, Pie Traynor, Dazzy Vance
1930s (5): Mickey Cochrane, Lou Gehrig, Lefty Grove, Gabby Hartnett, Bill Terry

Players Elected by Primary Organization
Baltimore Canaries (NA) (1): Lip Pike
Baltimore Orioles (NL) (3): Hughie Jennings, Willie Keeler, Joe Kelley
Boston Braves (fka Beaneaters) (NL) (6): John Clarkson, Hugh Duffy, Herman Long, Kid Nichols, Ezra Sutton, Vic Willis
Boston Red Sox (fka Americans) (AL) (2): Jimmy Collins, Cy Young
Boston Red Stockings (NA) (4): Ross Barnes, Cal McVey, Al Spalding, George Wright
Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) (1): Dickey Pearce
Brooklyn Dodgers (fka Robins) (2): Dazzy Vance, Zack Wheat
Buffalo Bisons (NL) (4): Dan Brouthers, Pud Galvin, Hardy Richardson, Deacon White
Chicago Cubs (fka White Stockings, Colts) (NL) (10): Cap Anson, Mordecai Brown, Frank Chance, Bill Dahlen, Clark Griffith, George Gore, Gabby Hartnett, King Kelly, Jimmy Ryan, Jimmy Sheckard
Chicago White Sox (AL) (3): Eddie Collins, Red Faber, Ed Walsh
Cincinnati Reds (NL, AA) (4): Heinie Groh, Bid McPhee, Tony Mullane, Edd Roush
Cleveland Blues (NL) (1): Jack Glasscock
Cleveland Indians (fka Naps) (AL) (6): Stan Coveleski, Elmer Flick, Addie Joss, Napoleon Lajoie, Joe Sewell, Tris Speaker
Cleveland Spiders (NL) (2): Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs
Detroit Tigers (AL) (3): Ty Cobb, Sam Crawford, Harry Heilmann
Detroit Wolverines (NL) (1): Charlie Bennett
Louisville Colonels (NL, AA) (1): Pete Browning
New York Giants (NL) (14): Roger Bresnahan, Roger Connor, George Davis, Larry Doyle, Buck Ewing, Frankie Frisch, Tim
Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Jim O’Rourke, Amos Rusie, George Van Haltren, John Ward, Mickey Welch
New York Yankees (AL) (2): Lou Gehrig, Babe Ruth
Philadelphia Athletics (AL) (5): Frank Baker, Mickey Cochrane, Lefty Grove, Eddie Plank, Rube Waddell
Philadelphia Athletics (AA) (1): Harry Stovey
Philadelphia Phillies (NL) (5): Pete Alexander, Ed Delahanty, Billy Hamilton, Sherry Magee, Sam Thompson
Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) (6): Jake Beckley, Max Carey, Fred Clarke, Tommy Leach, Pie Traynor, Honus Wagner
Providence Grays (NL) (3): Paul Hines, Charley Radbourn, Joe Start
St. Louis Browns (AL) (2): George Sisler, Bobby Wallace
St. Louis Cardinals (fka Browns) (NL, AA) (2): Bob Caruthers, Rogers Hornsby
Washington Senators (AL) (2): Goose Goslin, Walter Johnson

Hall of Fame Contributors Wing
Contributors Elected - 20
Contributor Year Elected
Doc Adams (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=639&pid=16943) 1925
Ed Barrow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Barrow) 1941
Alex Cartwright (http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blbaseball.htm) 1925
Henry Chadwick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Chadwick_(writer)) 1925
Charlie Comiskey (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/blacksox/comiskeybio.html)1925
Jim Creighton (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&bid=770&pid=0) 1925
Rube Foster (http://www.nlbpa.com/foster__andrew_-_rube.html) 1930
Miller Huggins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_Huggins) 1941
William Hulbert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hulbert) 1925
Ned Hanlon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_Hanlon_(baseball)) 1936
Ban Johnson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_Johnson) 1936
Bill Klem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Klem) 1941
Connie Mack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connie_Mack_(baseball)) 1930
John McGraw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McGraw_(baseball)) 1936
Al Reach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Reach) 1946
Francis Richter (http://www.uga.edu/juro/2003/shaw.htm) 1941
Branch Rickey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Rickey) 1946
Frank Selee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Selee) 1936
AG Spalding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Spalding) 1930
Harry Wright (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Wright) 1925

Contributors Elected by Year
1925: Doc Adams, Alex Cartwright, Henry Chadwick, Harry Wright, William Hulbert, Charlie Comiskey, Jim Creighton
1930: Rube Foster, Connie Mack, AG Spalding
1936: Ned Hanlon, Ban Johnson, John McGraw, Frank Selee
1941: Miller Huggins, Bill Klem, Francis Richter, Ed Barrow
1946: Al Reach, Branch Rickey

Miscellaneous Information
- Highest Regular Election Percentage: Cap Anson, Lou Gehrig, Lefty Grove, Walter Johnson, Kid Nichols, Tris Speaker, Cy Young – 100%
- Number of 1st Ballot Electees: 50
- Most Years on Ballot Before Election: Cupid Childs, Addie Joss, Al Spalding – 15
- Number of Players Elected After 10 Years on Ballot: 8
- Number of Players Lasting 15 Years on Ballot without Election: 33
- Number of Players Elected by Veterans Committee: 12
- Highest Percentage Among Players Not Elected: 74.07% - Earl Averill (1946)
- Most Regular Election Electees in One Year: 5 (1901, 1907, 1942)
- Fewest Regular Election Electees in One Year: 0 (1912, 1923, 1928, 1930, 1931, 1938, 1939, 1945)
- Largest Ballot: 78 Players (1901)
- Largest Post-1915 Ballot: 47 Players (1932)
- Smallest Ballot: 23 Players (1918)
- Most Votes Cast: 37 (1942)
- Fewest Votes Cast: 20 (1901)
- Team With Most Players Elected: New York Giants - 14
- Team With Second Most Players Elected: Chicago Cubs - 10
- Electee with Longest Post-1871 Career: Cap Anson – 27 Seasons
- Electee with Shortest Post-1871 Career: Dickey Pearce – 8 Seasons
- Members Elected as Both Players and Contributors: Al Spalding
- Youngest Elected Player: Amos Rusie – Age 35
- Oldest Elected Player: Joe Start – 78
- Number of Posthumously Elected Players: 16
- Number of Living Hall of Famers: 43
- Oldest Living Hall of Famer: Hugh Duffy - 81
- Deceased in Past Year: Jack Glasscock, Jimmy Sheckard, Vic Willis

Number of Ballots Submitted in Past Elections
1901: 20
1902: 24
1903: 26
1904: 25
1905: 24
1906: 23
1907: 24
1908: 25
1909: 22
1910: 25
1911: 25
1912: 23
1913: 23
1914: 26
1915: 25
1916: 25
1917: 25
1918: 24
1919: 27
1920: 26
1921: 31
1922: 28
1923: 25
1924: 29
1925: 24
1926: 25
1927: 28
1928: 27
1929: 25
1930: 25
1931: 32
1932: 24
1933: 29
1934: 28
1935: 33
1936: 32
1937: 34
1938: 30
1939: 32
1940: 34
1941: 35
1942: 37
1943: 30
1944: 27
1945: 29
1946: 27

Links to Past Elections
1901 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77167)
1902 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77464)
1903 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77797)
1904 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78133)
1905 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78417)
1906 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78737)
1907 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79020)
1908 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79393)
1909 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79738)
1910 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80134)
1911 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80597)
1912 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81008)
1913 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81477)
1914 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81965)
1915 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82365)
1916 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82681)
1917 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82940)
1918 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83241)
1919 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83422)
1920 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83665), 1920 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83697)
1921 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83924)
1922 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84099)
1923 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84257)
1924 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84423)
1925 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84552), 1925 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php? t=84636), 1925 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83852)
1926 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84727)
1927 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84871)
1928 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85029)
1929 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85206)
1930 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85358), 1930 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php? t=85439), 1930 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84578)
1931 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85681)
1932 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85850)
1933 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86054)
1934 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86291)
1935 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86514), 1935 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php? t=86576)
1936 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86747), 1936 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85051)
1937 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87002)
1938 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87241)
1939 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87501)
1940 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87800), 1940 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php? t=87854)
1941 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=88041), 1941 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87881)
1942 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=88297)
1943 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89063)
1944 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89394)
1945 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89744), 1945 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89707)
1946 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89923), 1946 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89916)

[Ace Venom]

Earl Averill
Wally Berger
Jim Bottomley
Kiki Cuyler
Dizzy Dean
Charlie Gehringer
Burleigh Grimes
Wes Ferrell
Tony Lazzeri
Ted Lyons
Heinie Manush
Rabbit Maranville
Carl Mays
Sam Rice
Hack Wilson

[jalbright]

Dean
Ferrell
Gehringer
Grimes
Lyons
Maranville
Mays
Rice, S.
Rixey
Wilson, H.

[SavoyBG]

Averill
Berger
Dean
Ferrell
Gehringer
Lyons
Maranville
Mays

[philkid3]

Averill, Earl
Dean, Dizzy
Ferrell, Wes
Gehringer, Charlie
Grimes, Burleigh
Lyons, Ted
Maranville, Rabbit
Rice, Sam
Schang, Wally

[philkid3]

Is this the guy we're voting for?
http://www.nerve.com/CS/blogs/screengrab/2008/02/08-15/brucecampbell.jpg
If so, I'd like to add him to my ballot.

[PVNICK]

full slate. I went from mimimalist to lopping off Eppa Rixey and Wes Ferrell. I must be getting overly generous and sticking with guys that never get in.

Averill
Bancroft
Cuyler
Dean
Gehringer
Grimes
Lyons
Manush
Maranville
Mays
Myer
Rice
Schalk
Schang
Shocker

[jjpm74]

Back to a full ballot this year to counteract the flury of small hall ballots that have been increasing in number lately:

Earl Averill
Wally Berger
Dizzy Dean
Wes Ferrell
Charlie Gehringer
Burleigh Grimes
Ted Lyons
Rabbit Maranville
Carl Mays
Buddy Myer
Sam Rice
Eppa Rixey
Wally Schang
Urban Shocker
Hack Wilson

I'll once again attempt to present Rabbit Maranville's HOF case as it is a strong one. I'm under the impression that those not voting for him are using only one measure for determining his case: OPS+. His OPS+ is a lifetime 83 which is average. The problem with only looking at OPS+ for Maranville is that you are then completely ignoring his value defensively which is problematic for a SS.

However, Rabbit Maranville had an impressive peak that is evidenced in both win shares and WARP3. I don't have his win shares in front of me, but his DWS is an A+ and many consider him to be the best SS ever to field the position. His WARP3 is a 49.6 lifetime and in that career, he had 9 seasons that would have been considered All Star caliber. A 9 time all star SS deserves our attention and SS is the most difficult position to field effectively.

[Ace Venom]

I listed Grimes in my vote, but somehow I forgot to put a check by his name. Can a mod fix this?

[PVNICK]

Both Maranville and Bancroft are the best SSs between Wagner and Vaughan with the possible exception of Sewell who got moved to 3B mid career and really deserve a better showing.

[mwiggins]

Dizzy Dean
Earl Averill
Rabbitt Maranville
Eppa Rixey
Urban Shocker
Wally Schang
Charlie Gehringer
Ted Lyons
Wes Ferrell

[jjpm74]

This year and next year will be a good time to clean house. Next year, we see a tiny group:

Freddie Fitzsimmons
Lefty Gomez
Carl Hubbell
Danny MacFayden
Rip Radcliffe

+ maybe a few via the age rule.

[leecemark]

--After dropping down to a two man ballot last year, I'm back up to 10 this year. Through the early going it looks like the second tier from last years class, Dean and Averill, are going to make it and several older backloggers are looking good too.

[KCGHOST]

Averill
Dean
Gehringer
Lyons
Rixey
Shocker

[vtbub]

I mistakenly omitted Ted Lyons off my ballot, +1 for him please.

[Cowtipper]

Full ballot:

Earl Averill
Wally Berger
Jim Bottomley
Earle Combs
Kiki Cuyler
Charlie Gehringer
Burleigh Grimes
Tony Lazzeri
Heinie Manush
Rabbit Maranville
Carl Mays
Sam Rice
Eppa Rixey
Urban Shocker
Hack Wilson

Guys I plan on voting for when I get room:

Dizzy Dean
Wes Ferrell
Ted Lyons

[Domenic]

Averill
Berger
Dean
Ferrell
Gehringer
Maranville
Rice

[SavoyBG]

I'll once again attempt to present Rabbit Maranville's HOF case as it is a strong one. I'm under the impression that those not voting for him are using only one measure for determining his case: OPS+. His OPS+ is a lifetime 83 which is average.


I want Maranville in too, but an OPS+ of 83 is far from average. By definition, an OPS+ of 100 would be average.

[leecemark]

--I think he means average for a SS.

[Brad Harris]

Averill
Bancroft
Berger
Cuyler
Dean
Ferrell
Gehringer
Grimes
Lyons
Maranville
Mays
Rice
Rixey
Schang
Wilson

[Freakshow]

This year and next year will be a good time to clean house. Next year, we see a tiny group:

Freddie Fitzsimmons
Lefty Gomez
Carl Hubbell
Danny MacFayden
Rip Radcliffe

+ maybe a few via the age rule.Al Simmons and Sam West should be on the ballot now, as I posted (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1510885&postcount=36) in the last election.

[Freakshow]

Grove and Hartnett were elected. They were replaced by newbies Gehringer and Lyons.

Averill
Bancroft
Berger
Ferrell W
Gehringer
Grimes
Lazzeri
Lyons
Maranville
Mays
Rice
Rixey
Schang
Shocker
Wilson

[jalbright]

This will be the last time for a while that I fix ballots, because, frankly, folks are getting a little too careless. I'll take care of those two, but there will be a hiatus on fixes (at least from me) to reinforce the point I don't have to do this for you folks.

[philkid3]

I'm pretty sure I've yet to need it, but I understand no one has to fix ballot mistakes. I still appreciate that you do, Jim.

[Paul Wendt]

I'll once again attempt to present Rabbit Maranville's HOF case as it is a strong one. I'm under the impression that those not voting for him are using only one measure for determining his case: OPS+. His OPS+ is a lifetime 83 which is average. The problem with only looking at OPS+ for Maranville is that you are then completely ignoring his value defensively which is problematic for a SS.

There is a problem with evaluating Maranville based on any career rate, a bias against him because he played longer than almost anyone, with the usual decline in single season rates as he aged.

Another reason to guess that his poor career batting rate somewhat understates his batting skill is that he missed 1918 to the war and his two best seasons were 1917 and 1919.
(Somewhere in the last couple days someone described Enos Slaughter's military service in WWII "bracketed" by his career years. Maranville's is a single-season version of the same.)

[leecemark]

--I don't understand how Earl Averill is such a slam dunk that he is getting twice the support of Wally Berger. I can see how someone would rank him ahead, but its a fairly narrow place to draw your in/out line. Averill has a 133 OPS+ in 7215 PA. Berger has a 137 in 5663. Both were good, but not great CFers. You could include the slumping Hack Wilson in this trio and have a "modern" version of the Duffy/VanHaltren/Ryan group elected after much debate some years back. If you support one then you don't really have reason to reject the others (actually I prefer this threesome to the early one).

[Cowtipper]

--I don't understand how Earl Averill is such a slam dunk that he is getting twice the support of Wally Berger. I can see how someone would rank him ahead, but its a fairly narrow place to draw your in/out line. Averill has a 133 OPS+ in 7215 PA. Berger has a 137 in 5663. Both were good, but not great CFers. You could include the slumping Hack Wilson in this trio and have a "modern" version of the Duffy/VanHaltren/Ryan group elected after much debate some years back. If you support one then you don't really have reason to reject the others (actually I prefer this threesome to the early one).
Yeah, and Berger has the cooler name, too.

[vtbub]

This will be the last time for a while that I fix ballots, because, frankly, folks are getting a little too careless. I'll take care of those two, but there will be a hiatus on fixes (at least from me) to reinforce the point I don't have to do this for you folks.

My apologies.

Thanks for all you do.

[Ace Venom]

This will be the last time for a while that I fix ballots, because, frankly, folks are getting a little too careless. I'll take care of those two, but there will be a hiatus on fixes (at least from me) to reinforce the point I don't have to do this for you folks.

It was a mistake that won't happen again. Believe me when I say that I appreciate all the help you have given.

[Paul Wendt]

--I don't understand how Earl Averill is such a slam dunk that he is getting twice the support of Wally Berger. I can see how someone would rank him ahead, but its a fairly narrow place to draw your in/out line. Averill has a 133 OPS+ in 7215 PA. Berger has a 137 in 5663. Both were good, but not great CFers. You could include the slumping Hack Wilson in this trio and have a "modern" version of the Duffy/VanHaltren/Ryan group elected after much debate some years back. If you support one then you don't really have reason to reject the others (actually I prefer this threesome to the early one).

Averill played about ten full seasons in the majors, Berger about seven.
Averill enjoyed three very full seasons as a PCL star, Berger one.

Averill scores very high by one of the fielding ratings so his defense is the subject of one of the bigger sabrmetric disagreements. (This was a matter of discussion at the Hall of Merit both when Averill was on the ballot for election and again last year re the centerfielder rankings.)

Berger was a great player, greater than Averill for a while (unless the upside assessment of A's fielding is valid), but I don't see any way to prefer Berger overall except the pure peak criterion.

What is the case against Averill, and Berger and Wilson and others?
There may be one rooted in the apogee of the Negro Leagues. Should there be more players in a shadow hall of fame representing a time when the majors and Negro Leagues were running in tandem? A few people say no, there should be no more members from the 1930s than from the1950s.

[philkid3]

So, in 20-25 years or so, do you think Jackie Robinson belongs in the Hall of Fame? Do you think you'll vote for him even if he just has a fairly mediocre career?

[Captain Cold Nose]

So, in 20-25 years or so, do you think Jackie Robinson belongs in the Hall of Fame? Do you think you'll vote for him even if he just has a fairly mediocre career?

If he's mediocre, no. He's the first, but not the only and not by too much. If the other ex-Negro Leaguers really excel while Jackie does not, I don't think you can give him the ultimate honor as a player if he only breaks down a single door but does little else.

Guy's a fine player and an incredible athlete. I would not bet against him.

[jalbright]

It was a mistake that won't happen again. Believe me when I say that I appreciate all the help you have given.

My apologies.

Thanks for all you do.

I apologize if it seems I was picking on you two. I'm not. It's been building over time, as in it's happening more and more, and even I've been guilty of it. Sometimes, if something's irritating you, it's best to just let people know how you feel and why. This was just the time for it. I hope the point has been made, not just to you two good folks, but to others in the forum. Take care.

[Sockeye]

Charlie Gehringer
Burleigh Grimes
Ted Lyons
Eppa Rixey

[dgarza]

Earl Averill
Jim Bottomley
Earle Combs
Kiki Cuyler
Dizzy Dean
Charlie Gehringer
Burleigh Grimes
Babe Herman
Tony Lazzeri
Ted Lyons
Heinie Manush
Carl Mays
Sam Rice
Eppa Rixey
Hack Wilson


1. Charlie Gehringer
2. Hack Wilson
3. Earl Averill
4. Heinie Manush
5. Kiki Cuyler
6. Sam Rice
7. Jim Bottomley
8. Dizzy Dean
9. Burleigh Grimes
10. Tony Lazzeri
11. Carl Mays
12. Babe Herman
13. Ted Lyons
14. Earle Combs
15. Eppa Rixey

[bambambaseball]

It didn't take long to bounce Rabbit Maranville right out of contention again. Its nice to know people actually look at the cases of players and give input when they vote against players like him. Seriously, why are people participating if all they do is ignore questions that are directed at them and just post weird balotts???? :thumbsdown:

[Ace Venom]

It didn't take long to bounce Rabbit Maranville right out of contention again. Its nice to know people actually look at the cases of players and give input when they vote against players like him. Seriously, why are people participating if all they do is ignore questions that are directed at them and just post weird balotts???? :thumbsdown:

82 OPS+
Even our old favorite Larry Gardner had a higher career OPS+ (109). Then there's the .258 batting average. Only Maranville's glove turns him into a borderline candidate, particularly his RF/G. He also fails on all the Hall of Fame yardsticks. I can see why people wouldn't vote for him because he's a tough sell in some categories.

http://thesportsarsenal.wordpress.com/2009/01/25/in-defense-of-rabbit-maranvilles-hall-of-fame-plaque/

[soberdennis]

I just voted for 5
Gehringer
Hack Wilson
Lazzeri
Mays
Cuyler

[henrich]

C schang
1B Bottomley
2B Gehringer
SP Mays
RF Herman
RF Rice, Sam

[Paul Wendt]

dennis and henrich,
Carl Mays over Ted Lyons?

I started to play "drive-by voter" but that is too demanding for me. It demands that I say nothing.

I voted for all the pitchers,
Rice (the tornado story moved me),
Averill, Berger and Wilson,
Gehringer,
Bancroft and Maranville,
Werber.

Billy Werber was a basketball star at Duke University, a bridge star within baseball circles, a top base stealer in his twenties, a fair batter, and a whiz at thirdbase. Bill James grades him A-, the only mark in the A range among a score of "Depression era" thirdbasemen. He put up two outstanding seasons when it mattered most, for the champion Reds in 1939 and 1940.

Werber earned a lot of money after baseball and also wrote or co-wrote a few books including a baseball autobiography at age 90 (Memories of a Ballplayer with Paul Rogers, a SABR membership publication in 2001). He became one of the grumpiest critics of modern ballplayers.

Werber died early this year at 100, which missed me when it was news.

(This note relies partly on "Billy Werber" at wikipedia.)

[RyanExpress30]

1 Gehringer
2 Bottomley
3 Cuyler
4 Averill
5 Manush
6 Berger
7 Lazzeri
8 Wilson
9 Herman
10 Combs

[bambambaseball]

I cant believe Ted Lyons is below the threshold! :rolleyes::faint:

[jjpm74]

It didn't take long to bounce Rabbit Maranville right out of contention again. Its nice to know people actually look at the cases of players and give input when they vote against players like him. Seriously, why are people participating if all they do is ignore questions that are directed at them and just post weird balotts???? :thumbsdown:

I cant believe Ted Lyons is below the threshold! :rolleyes::faint:

If you feel that strongly about them, present some arguments for them. If this is honestly what the conversation has been reduced to, this project might as well be laid to rest.

[Ace Venom]

I'll be honest. I don't like it when people say this project should be laid to rest. The conversation does need to improve. There's a lot that can be said about Dizzy Dean and Ted Lyons. Dizzy Dean has a 130 ERA+ and his best seasons were with the Cardinals. He won an MVP award in 1934. I can understand Ted Lyons waiting, but I encourage people to discuss Dean.

[mwiggins]

It didn't take long to bounce Rabbit Maranville right out of contention again. Its nice to know people actually look at the cases of players and give input when they vote against players like him. Seriously, why are people participating if all they do is ignore questions that are directed at them and just post weird balotts???? :thumbsdown:

Maranville has been discussed to death in previous elections. His defensive greatness and his longevity are both very well known, and his case has been presented well here numerous times. If a number of people decide they aren't going to look past his OPS+, they aren't likely to change their mind at this point. His candidacy is in the hands of the VC at this point. And I think he probably has a pretty good shot at getting in via that route.

If he is being kept out by people voting who don't bother to look at the cases of the candidates, those people aren't in the VC so if he doesn't get in those people won't be the reason.

[leecemark]

--I voted for both Lyons and Dean, but am hardly shocked that they aren't sailing to election - Averill easily election is the bigger surprise for me. Dean definately had a Hall of Fame peak, but his career was extremely short for a Hall of Famer. Lyons had a Hall of Fame career, but doesn't really have much to separate him from the Grimes and Rixey's on the ballot who are struggling more than he is. He is at 70% on his first year. That is pretty darn good. Dean is there in his second. Its up to their supporters to convince a few more poeple. Just complaining isn't going to get that done - present the case.

[vtbub]

I'll tell you why I didn't vote for Dean, his career was too short. His peak was HOF'esque, but his last productive season came at 26 and there are currently no bullpen artists enshrined.

If one wants to make the case that, as a contributor later on, something about misspeaking English on a little black and white box, then yes get him in. But , for me any way, his career alone does not get him in.

[mwiggins]

I'll tell you why I didn't vote for Dean, his career was too short. His peak was HOF'esque, but his last productive season came at 26 and there are currently no bullpen artists enshrined.

If one wants to make the case that, as a contributor later on, something about misspeaking English on a little black and white box, then yes get him in. But , for me any way, his career alone does not get him in.

Did you vote for Sisler? Both had a run of dominance in their 20's that was cut short due to a fluke injury. Sisler had a longer peak - 7 years vs 5 1/2 years - and he was able to play much longer after his injury than Dean was. But essentially Sisler was elected based on 7 years of greatness, which seems comparable to Dean's 5 1/2 seasons of greatness.

And certainly anybody voting for Hack Wilson or Wally Berger should probably have Dean on their ballot, since both of their cases rely almost soley on a brief run of great peak years. I would argue Dean's peak years were better than Wilson's or Berger's, which is why I voted for Dean and not Wilson or Berger. But I can't see the argument that Wilson or Berger should be in, but Dean shouldn't because his career was too short.

[Paul Wendt]

The Hall of Merit has not elected Dean among 234 members, matching the Hall of Fame players in number.

On the other hand, Lyons ranks 13 among 19 member pitchers with careers mainly 1924-1958, in the most recent special election. (May 10 results (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/election_results_top_5_hom_moundsmens_for_group_3_ grove_spahn_paige_feller_/P100/)) (other relevant threads: too many to link)
The big gap in the standings is between ranks 13 and 14 so it may be said that the consensus puts Lyons clearly in the middle rather than the bottom of the Hall of Merit. The bottom six,"gapped" by the field: Willie Foster, Ruffing, Ferrell, Wynn, Lemon, Pierce.

In a similar election last month Rixey ranks 19 among 19 member pitchers with careers mainly 1893-1923 (April 13 results (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/election_results_johnson_and_young_are_1_and_2_on_ every_ballot_among_the_hu/))
There Red Faber is also in a bottom group of four, gapped by the field. That contrasts with the sharply different experience for Faber and Rixey here among the progressive set.

Grimes, Shocker, Mays and Cooper (just expired here) have some support in the annual HOM elections, as does Dick Redding from the Negro Leagues. Tommy Bridges and Bucky Walters are two more from about the same time period (coming soon here). From the Hall of Merit perspective they are all clearly among the next 20 where about 60 starting pitchers have been elected.

[mwiggins]

Lyons had a Hall of Fame career, but doesn't really have much to separate him from the Grimes and Rixey's on the ballot who are struggling more than he is. He is at 70% on his first year. That is pretty darn good.

I think Rixey should be in, but I'll present the case that Lyons is a clear step above Grimes.

* Lyons has an edge in career ERA+ (118 to 107) over roughly the same number of career innings (4180 for Grimes vs. 4161 for Lyons).
* Lyons had a career DERA of 4.10, much better than Grimes' 4.57.
* Lyons finished with a career PRAA score of +179, vs. negative 27 for Grimes - again Lyons scores significantly better in career value.
* Lyons was more consistently among the best pitchers in his league than Grimes was. Lyons finished in the top-10 in ERA+ 10 times, and top-5 6 times, while leading the league once. Grimes finished in the top-10 only 6 times, the top-5 5 times, and led the league once. Lyons finished in the top 10 in WHIP 12 times, and lead the league once, compared to just 5 top-10 finishes for Grimes. Both finished in the top-10 in K/BB 4 times, but Lyons led the league twice and finished 2nd once; while Grimes' best finish was 4th.
* Their peaks were pretty similar, with Grimes maybe having the slight edge due to more IP in his big years. Where Lyons has a large edge is the tail end of their careers. He was a fairly dominant part-time starter in his late 30's, twice posting ERA+'s over 170. While Grimes faded quickly after his age 35 & 36 seasons.
* Lyons was also more consistent year to year during their primes. Lyons posted only two sub-100 ERA+'s (both 97) after age 24. While Grimes had 4 years with sub-100 ERA+'s from age 25-31, and closed out his career with 3 sub-100 ERA+ years.


I don't have the time right now to compare him to the other pitcher's who've stuck around on the ballot for a while, but I would say that I think he's a notch above the likes of Rixey, Mays, Grimes, and Shocker. And leaving out Ferrell's bat, I think Lyons has a clearly better case than Wes strictly as a pitcher. Dean and Shocker were more dominant than Lyons, but he clearly beats them in terms of career value, so to me he stands as clearly the best pitching candidate on the ballot. His only real "fault" is that he played for the White Sox his whole career. Hopefully anybody voting for any of the pitchers named in this paragraph, but not Lyons, will take another look at Lyons.

[Ace Venom]

Thanks for the perspective of Lyons vs. Grimes. I also used to have Rixey on my ballot, so there probably should be a little more consideration there.

[Paul Wendt]

[add: At midnight I thought mwiggins had used a previous edition of these "Davenstats" and I provided the same numbers from the current edition. At noon I recognized the difference and rewrote this.]

Good job.

As two points of comparision, mwiggins has provided some estimates by Clay Davenport "adjusted for all time". (They are part of the overall player rating WARP3. See player DT cards at BaseballProspectus.) Here in square brackets I have added the corresponding estimates "adjusted for season" only, which underly WARP1.

* Lyons had a career DERA of 4.10, much better than Grimes' 4.57. [3.94 to 4.32]
* Lyons finished with a career PRAA score of +179, vs. negative 27 for Grimes - again Lyons scores significantly better in career value. [+247 to +75]

Within his own career [brackets], Grimes rates significantly better than the average major league pitcher (which is true of almost every Hall of Fame member). The average is DERA 4.50 and PRAA zero. Compared with the all-time estimates, he is a little bit closer to Lyons too, which implies that Lyons played in higher-rated leagues; the all-time adjustment is a heavier discount against Grimes.

By the way, these two measures DERA and PRAA are redundant, given Innings. Pitching Runs Above Average (PRAA) per 9 innings, subtracted from 4.50 which represents average, is the definition of DERA. So DERA 4.10 means 0.40 pitching runs per nine above average. Innings are adjusted but never mind that.

Grimes was a workhorse in his best seasons; that is one point in his favor.
Grimes was slightly better at bat (by OPS+ or Davenport) and with the glove (Davenport), but those margins cover less than half of the pitching gap in Lyons' favor.

Several years ago Bill James ranked them Lyons 43 and Grimes 62 among major league pitcher 1876-2001. There are now about 72 pitchers in Cooperstown including eight from the Negro Leagues.

[PVNICK]

If I understand the DRAA correctly, Grimes was below average for his career. Currently with refinements or advancements in the "formula" he is +75 runs above average over a 4000 inning career. Unless someone can put this into better perspective it seems pretty un-HOF material to me.

[Paul Wendt]

If I understand the DRAA correctly, Grimes was below average for his career. Currently with refinements or advancements in the "formula" he is +75 runs above average over a 4000 inning career. Unless someone can put this into better perspective it seems pretty un-HOF material to me.

I have revised the preceding message to correct my midnight mistake. The difference is not between the previous and current editions (recent refinements) but two versions of the current edition, estimating against average for all time or against average for his career. Against average for his career, the ratings (4.32, +75) place Grimes about 4% above. I suppose superior-to-average batting and fielding (in the same rating system) may boost him to the 106 or 107 on the index scale.

Grimes and Lyons are relatively easy to compare because they pitched almost the same number of innings at about the same time.