BBF VC Progressive Negro League Players Election: 1947

[Ace Venom]

Below is the final ballot for the 1947 VC Negro League Players Election. Voters can vote for as many candidates as they wish with 75% support required to elect a player. Voting will be open for five days, at which point we'll tabulate votes provided we have a quorum consisting of at least 12 of the 20 VC members having voted. Anyone is free to participate in the discussion and submit a ballot but only ballots from the 20 VC members will be counted.

Rules
-The 1947 ballot will consist of
1) Players who finished their playing career by 1942;
2) Players who died from 1942-1947;
3) Players with Major or Minor League experience before the color line was enforced;
4) Players who are age 45 or older.

-Voters can vote for as many candidates as they wish.

-If a player on the ballot does not receive at least two votes, he will not appear on the following ballot. The 1952 ballot will consist of:
1) Every player from the 1947 ballot that received at least two votes;
2) Every newly eligible player who ceased playing in the Negro Leagues except those who may be playing in the Major or Minor Leagues.

1947 Ballot
Newton H. Allen
John Beckwith
Clifford Bell
Emmet Bowman
Oscar Charleston
Phillip Cockrell
Andy Cooper
Jimmie Crutchfield
Leon Daniels
Saul Davis
Felix Delgado
Bingo DeMoss
Lou Dials
William Dismukes
John Donaldson
William Drake
Rube Foster
Willie Foster
John “Bud” Fowler
Floyd “Jelly” Gardner
Josh Gibson
George Giles
Frank Grant
Arthur “Rats” Henderson
Pete Hill
Bill Holland
Bill Jackman
Fats Jenkins
George “Chappie” Johnson
Grant “Home Run” Johnson
William “Judy” Johnson
Milfred Laurent
Scrip Lee
Frank Leland
John Henry “Pop” Lloyd
Dave Malarcher
Oliver Marcell
Dan McClellan
Jose Mendez
Alonzo Mitchell
Bill Monroe
Alejandro Oms
Ted Page
Jap Payne
Bill Pettus
Bruce Petway
Spot Poles
Cumberland Posey
Richard “Cannonball Dick” Redding
William Robinson
Bullet Rogan
Merven “Red” Ryan
Louis Santop
Chino Smith
Clarence Smith
Norman “Turkey” Stearnes
Jake Stephens
George Stovey
Ben Taylor
C.I. Taylor
“Steel Arm Johnny” Taylor
Cristobal Torriente
Moses “Fleet” Walker
Frank Warfield
Chaney White
Sol White
Frank Wickware
Waibishaw Wiley
Clarence Williams
George Williams
Smokey Joe Williams
George Wilson
Jesse “Nip” Winters

EDIT: Add Jud Wilson to the ballot. Anyone can vote for him.

[Ace Venom]

The Veterans Committee

Ace Venom
ag2004
blueblood
brad harris
captain cold nose
cowtipper
dgarza
DoubleX
freakshow
henrich
Jalbright
jjpm74
KCGhost
Leecemark
mwiggins
Paul Wendt
philkid3
pvnick
SavoyBG
Windy City Fan

[jalbright]

My ballot is overly large to start, as 1) we can vote for "as many as we wish", and 2) those who don't get at least two votes get dropped. Thus, I will vote for everyone I am reasonably sure I can support for the Hall, plus a few I might support:

John Beckwith
Oscar Charleston
Andy Cooper
Willie Foster
Josh Gibson
Frank Grant
Pete Hill
Bill Jackman
Grant “Home Run” Johnson
John Henry “Pop” Lloyd
Jose Mendez
Bill Monroe
Alejandro Oms
Spot Poles
Richard “Cannonball Dick” Redding
Bullet Rogan
Louis Santop
Chino Smith
Norman “Turkey” Stearnes
Cristobal Torriente
Sol White
Smokey Joe Williams
Jud "Boojum" Wilson

[jalbright]

Why is Jud Wilson not on the list?

[Ace Venom]

Jud Wilson's last year of play was 1945.

[leecemark]

--17 definate supports seems plenty high enough without adding on the maybe's.

John Beckwith
Oscar Charleston
Rube Foster
Willie Foster
Josh Gibson
Frank Grant
Pete Hill
Grant “Home Run” Johnson
John Henry “Pop” Lloyd
Jose Mendez
Richard “Cannonball Dick” Redding
Bullet Rogan
Louis Santop
Norman “Turkey” Stearnes
Ben Taylor
Cristobal Torriente
Smokey Joe Williams

[philkid3]

My ballot is exactly the same as Jim's, for similar reasons.

John Beckwith
Oscar Charleston
Andy Cooper
Willie Foster
Josh Gibson
Frank Grant
Pete Hill
Bill Jackman
Grant “Home Run” Johnson
John Henry “Pop” Lloyd
Jose Mendez
Bill Monroe
Alejandro Oms
Spot Poles
Richard “Cannonball Dick” Redding
Bullet Rogan
Louis Santop
Chino Smith
Norman “Turkey” Stearnes
Cristobal Torriente
Sol White
Smokey Joe Williams

[jalbright]

Jud Wilson's last year of play was 1945.

Don't we have an age rule? My information says Jud was born in 1899, so he's 48 in 1947.

[Ace Venom]

That's something I overlooked. I'll add him to the ballot.

[jalbright]

That's something I overlooked. I'll add him to the ballot.

Well, then, I'm adding Jud to my ballot.

[Brad Harris]

John Beckwith
Oscar Charleston
Andy Cooper
Rube Foster
Bill Foster
Josh Gibson
Frank Grant
Pete Hill
Home Run Johnson
Pop Lloyd
Jose Mendez
Bill Monroe
Alejandro Oms
Bruce Petway
Spotswood Poles
Dick Redding
Joe Rogan
Louis Santop
Chino Smith
Turkey Stearnes
Ben Taylor
Cristobal Torriente
Frank Warfield
Smokey Joe Williams
Jud Wilson

[SavoyBG]

I'm going a little small the first time with just the real cream of the crop.

Oscar Charleston
Josh Gibson
William “Judy” Johnson
John Henry “Pop” Lloyd
Bill Monroe
Spotwood Poles
Bullet Rogan
Louis Santop
Norman “Turkey” Stearnes
Smokey Joe Williams

[jjpm74]

By far my largest ballot to date, but then again, we have about 80 years of history to make up for. These guys fit our hall's criteria, IMO:

John Beckwith
Oscar Charleston
Andy Cooper
Bingo DeMoss
William Dismukes
John Donaldson
John “Bud” Fowler
Josh Gibson
Frank Grant
Pete Hill
Bill Jackman
Grant “Home Run” Johnson
John Henry “Pop” Lloyd
Jose Mendez
Bill Monroe
Alejandro Oms
Bruce Petway
Spot Poles
Richard “Cannonball Dick” Redding
Bullet Rogan
Louis Santop
Chino Smith
Norman “Turkey” Stearnes
Ben Taylor
Cristobal Torriente
Smokey Joe Williams
Jud Wilson
Jesse “Nip” Winters

[jjpm74]

I'm going a little small the first time with just the real cream of the crop.

Oscar Charleston
Josh Gibson
William “Judy” Johnson
John Henry “Pop” Lloyd
Bill Monroe
Spotwood Poles
Bullet Rogan
Louis Santop
Norman “Turkey” Stearnes
Smokey Joe Williams

Judy Johnson is cream of the crop?

He was a great defensive 3Bman, but he's on par with Ossie Vitt. Ollie Marcell is someone clearly better and I can't even see myself voting for him.

[SavoyBG]

Judy Johnson is cream of the crop?

He was a great defensive 3Bman, but he's on par with Ossie Vitt. Ollie Marcell is someone clearly better and I can't even see myself voting for him.


Everything I've seen says that Johnson was clearly better than Marcelle.

The Bill James Classic game had Johnson on a par with guys like Groh, Jimmy Collins and Keltner. Marcelle was on a par with guys like Bob Bailey, Billy Nash and Billy Werber.

Here's the stats I have on both players

PLAYER.......G.....AB....H....2B...3B...HR...AVG.. .SLG
Marcelle...349..1451..442...42...22...12...305.... .389
Johnson...728..2692..816..125...44...19...303..... 403

[jalbright]

Shades of Glory, which had access to Cooperstown's rather exhaustive study of the available Negro League data, gives Johnson the following line:


AB H 2B 3B HR BB avg OBP alg
2983 875 126 48 27 159 0.293 0.347 0.395


Hitting like this in 1921-1936 doesn't particularly impress me.

[SavoyBG]

Shades of Glory, which had access to Cooperstown's rather exhaustive study of the available Negro League data, gives Johnson the following line:


AB H 2B 3B HR BB avg OBP alg
2983 875 126 48 27 159 0.293 0.347 0.395


Hitting like this in 1921-1936 doesn't particularly impress me.


A- Has it been established that Negro League ofensive levels in the 20s and 30s were similar to what MLB offensive levels were at that time?

B - What great fielding white 3Bman in the 20s and 30s was that good of a hitter over a long career?

C - What does this book have for Marcelle?

[dgarza]

John Beckwith
Oscar Charleston
Rube Foster
Willie Foster
Josh Gibson
Frank Grant
Pete Hill
William “Judy” Johnson
John Henry “Pop” Lloyd
Jose Mendez
Alejandro Oms
Spot Poles
Cumberland Posey
Richard “Cannonball Dick” Redding
Bullet Rogan
Norman “Turkey” Stearnes
Cristobal Torriente
Smokey Joe Williams
Jud Wilson

[Ace Venom]

This is a large ballot. It stands to be our largest entering class in the history of the project.

John Beckwith
Oscar Charleston
Andy Cooper
Elwood "Bingo" DeMoss
William Dismukes
Rube Foster
Willie Foster
John "Bud" Fowler
Floyd "Jelly" Gardner
Josh Gibson
Frank Grant
Pete Hill
Grant "Home Run" Johnson
William "Judy" Johnson
John Henry "Pop" Lloyd
Jose Mendez
Bill Monroe
Alejandro Oms
Spot Poles
Richard "Cannoball Dick" Redding
Bullet Rogan
Louis Santop
Chino Smith
Ben Taylor
Norman "Turkey" Stearnes
Cristobal Torriente
Sol White
Smokey Joe Williams
Jud Wilson
Jesse "Nip" Winters

[jalbright]

A- Has it been established that Negro League ofensive levels in the 20s and 30s were similar to what MLB offensive levels were at that time?

B - What great fielding white 3Bman in the 20s and 30s was that good of a hitter over a long career?

C - What does this book have for Marcelle?

A--As far as I'm concerned, it's the best measure we can use, as Negro Leaguers who went to the majors basically performed at a level just slightly lower than their established Negro League levels, developing players like Mays excepted. Moreover, what we have on these guys playing against major leaguers makes a similar suggestion, though many of these encounters were not on major league fields.

B--Not many, but not many qualify as Hall of Famers, either. Greatness requires rising above the crowd in some way, not imitating it.

C--It doesn't give such data for Marcelle.

[Paul Wendt]

This is closer to a list of nominations, which seems to be how some others have approached 1947. Just now, rather than "on top of it all" I am a bit overwhelmed by information and an apartment full of printed and written materials.

John Beckwith
Oscar Charleston
Andy Cooper
John Donaldson
Rube Foster
Willie Foster
Bud Fowler
Josh Gibson
Frank Grant
Pete Hill
Bill Jackman
Chappie Johnson
Grant Johnson
John Henry Lloyd
Jose Mendez
Bill Monroe
Alejandro Oms
Cumberland Posey
Dick Redding
Bullet Rogan
Louis Santop
Chino Smith
Turkey Stearnes
George Stovey
Ben Taylor
C.I. Taylor
Cristobal Torriente
Sol White
Clarence Williams
George Williams
Smokey Joe Williams
Nip Winters

A turn of century pitcher might have captured my "nomination", Harry Buckner or Bert Jones (not listed for consideration) rather than George Wilson or Bill Holland (listed). But we don't know enough, we haven't even begun to compile what record is available in the newspapers.

[Paul Wendt]

SavoyBG:
>>
A- Has it been established that Negro League offensive levels in the 20s and 30s were similar to what MLB offensive levels were at that time?
<<
Major League Equivalencies at the Hall of Merit, at least those by Chris Cobb, incorporate conclusions on this point. Unfortunately I don't remember the conclusions and I can't provide narrow references with any confidence. See the MLE thread and the John Beckwith thread, at least.

Commonly it is said that the deadball era persisted in the Negro Leagues. I suppose that judgment is based on style of play rather than analysis of run scores. That big HOF database includes what is necessary but it is private (as far as I know, one cannot yet access it in Cooperstown, much less remotely).

Major League Equivalencies at the Hall of Merit incorporate some judgments about that are not entirely conventional. Gary Ashwill (of agate type (http://agatetype.typepad.com/agate_type/)) and Kevin Johnson (KJOK, occasionally at this site) provided some useful data --complete data on runs for selected seasons, iirc. Unfortunately I don't recall the conclusions. At the Hall of Merit some valuable data and discussion is in player and annual threads rather than in the MLE thread. "John Beckwith" is one player thread that includes more general discussion of MLEs than most.


jalbright:
>
A--As far as I'm concerned, it's the best measure we can use, as Negro Leaguers who went to the majors basically performed at a level just slightly lower than their established Negro League levels, developing players like Mays excepted. Moreover, what we have on these guys playing against major leaguers makes a similar suggestion, though many of these encounters were not on major league fields.
<

The experience of players who moved to Organized Baseball is specific to the Negro Leagues of the 1940s and where we have good data for batters only (which is the case, I believe) that isn't sufficient to estimate any quality of competition effects separately from the scoring level (the balance between pitchers and batters). Batters would perform equally in the two environments if quality and scoring were both equal in the two environments but there are other combinations; for example, the major leagues could be higher quality and higher scoring in the same proportion.

[Cowtipper]

John Beckwith
Oscar Charleston
Andy Cooper
Bingo DeMoss
Rube Foster
Willie Foster
Bud Fowler
Josh Gibson
Frank Grant
Pete Hill
Home Run Johnson
Judy Johnson
Pop Lloyd
Jose Mendez
Alejandro Oms
Spot Poles
Dick Redding
Bullet Rogan
Louis Santop
Chino Smith
Turkey Stearnes
George Stovey
Moses “Fleet” Walker
Sol White
Smokey Joe Williams
Nip Winters

[bambambaseball]

Id like to be on this committee!

John Beckwith
Oscar Charleston
Phillip Cockrell
Andy Cooper
Bingo DeMoss
William Dismukes
John Donaldson
Rube Foster
Willie Foster
John “Bud” Fowler
Josh Gibson
Frank Grant
Pete Hill
Bill Jackman
Grant “Home Run” Johnson
John Henry “Pop” Lloyd
Oliver Marcell
Jose Mendez
Alonzo Mitchell
Bill Monroe
Alejandro Oms
Bruce Petway
Spot Poles
Cumberland Posey
Richard “Cannonball Dick” Redding
Bullet Rogan
Louis Santop
Chino Smith
Norman “Turkey” Stearnes
George Stovey
Ben Taylor
C.I. Taylor
Cristobal Torriente
Sol White
Frank Wickware
Smokey Joe Williams
Jesse “Nip” Winters

[SavoyBG]

A--As far as I'm concerned, it's the best measure we can use, as Negro Leaguers who went to the majors basically performed at a level just slightly lower than their established Negro League levels, developing players like Mays excepted. Moreover, what we have on these guys playing against major leaguers makes a similar suggestion, though many of these encounters were not on major league fields.



Negro Leaguers who went to the majors did so in the late 1940s and early 1950s, long after the high offensive level era of the 20s and 30s was over already. My point is, we don't know what a .300 average and a .400 SLG% in the negro leagues of the 20s and 30s means in the context of those leagues. It's very possible that there was a lot less offense in the negro leagues of those days than there was in the major leagues of those days. The balls that they used back then may have been more similar to the balss that were being used in the major leagues in the teens. Perhaps the dead ball era continued well into the 1920s in the negro Leagues.

Judy Johnson could have conceivalbly had an OPS+ of 120 with those stats, depending upon what the offensive levels were like in his leagues. We don't know. You can't just look at his numbers as compared top the what offensive levels were in the major leagues at that time.

[SavoyBG]

Commonly it is said that the deadball era persisted in the Negro Leagues.

The experience of players who moved to Organized Baseball is specific to the Negro Leagues of the 1940s and where we have good data for batters only (which is the case, I believe) that isn't sufficient to estimate any quality of competition effects separately from the scoring level (the balance between pitchers and batters). Batters would perform equally in the two environments if quality and scoring were both equal in the two environments but there are other combinations; for example, the major leagues could be higher quality and higher scoring in the same proportion.

That's what i suspected might be the case, that the deadball era lasted long into the 1920s in the negro leagues.

As for the rest, my only point is that you can't look at Johnson's stats and then say that you're not impressed with those numbers because of when he played (20s and 30s), as we don't know if his OPS+ was 90 or 130.

[jalbright]

SavoyBG:
>>
A- Has it been established that Negro League offensive levels in the 20s and 30s were similar to what MLB offensive levels were at that time?
<<
Major League Equivalencies at the Hall of Merit, at least those by Chris Cobb, incorporate conclusions on this point. Unfortunately I don't remember the conclusions and I can't provide narrow references with any confidence. See the MLE thread and the John Beckwith thread, at least.

Commonly it is said that the deadball era persisted in the Negro Leagues. I suppose that judgment is based on style of play rather than analysis of run scores. That big HOF database includes what is necessary but it is private (as far as I know, one cannot yet access it in Cooperstown, much less remotely).

Major League Equivalencies at the Hall of Merit incorporate some judgments about that are not entirely conventional. Gary Ashwill (of agate type (http://agatetype.typepad.com/agate_type/)) and Kevin Johnson (KJOK, occasionally at this site) provided some useful data --complete data on runs for selected seasons, iirc. Unfortunately I don't recall the conclusions. At the Hall of Merit some valuable data and discussion is in player and annual threads rather than in the MLE thread. "John Beckwith" is one player thread that includes more general discussion of MLEs than most.
.

I can refer you to something I have read, a monograph published with a card set or disk for the APBA baseball game consisting of Eastern Colored League players, intended to be possibly intermingled with the 1924 major league APBA card set. The gentlemen who did the research and created the monograph (David Lawrence and Dom Dennaro) sought to put the Eastern Colored League guys on a 1924 major league level, and used some rather sophisticated statistical modelling to do it. It's a fascinating read and not easy to find (and, at 72 total pages, way too long to reproduce for someone), but they find that the Negro Leagues were quicker to adopt home run hitting. It was popular with fans and it broadened their comparatively small talent pool. However, that smaller talent pool meant that they retained many of the deadball players they had, and grafted the power game into what they had rather than the way the majors moved from deadball toward station to station baseball (few bunts or steals, less hitting and running, and so forth).

Another reason which would encourage the Negro Leaguers to adopt power is that they got a lot of their income from barnstorming, which meant playing in some parks with significantly smaller dimensions than those in the majors. They quickly came up with Charleston adding power to his game, Beckwith, Heavy Johnson, Dobie Moore, Chino Smith Ed Wesley, Martin Dihigo and Hudspeth to name just some.

The Negro Leagues, with their difficult economic model, didn't have farm teams and carried small lineups (sometimes as few as 13, almost never more than 18). They had to barnstorm to make ends meet. They didn't do things the way the majors did because they couldn't afford to. So they found their own path. That said, what I'm aware of does not support the idea that Judy Johnson was toiling in a deadball run-scoring environment for a significant portion of his career. Besides, those short rosters meant short pitching staffs, and not all of those guys were top-notch. Moreover, because they played so much, if it wasn't a close game, you could expect pitchers on both sides to coast and try and save their arms a bit, which helped the hitters some.

[Paul Wendt]

That said, what I'm aware of does not support the idea that Judy Johnson was toiling in a deadball run-scoring environment for a significant portion of his career.
I don't support the conventional wisdom either but I don't remember the evidence assembled in the Hall of Merit discussions. I do know that they have aggregate run scoring data for some seasons and that the analyses of particular players include estimates of OPS+.

[Tiboreau]

What are the eligibility standards? I notice that Dobie Moore isn't listed among the candidates; his Wreckers teammate Heavy Johnson is missing from the list as well.

[jjpm74]

What are the eligibility standards? I notice that Dobie Moore isn't listed among the candidates; his Wreckers teammate Heavy Johnson is missing from the list as well.

Both Moore and Johnson should have been on the list of eligible candidates. Their omission is likely an oversight.

IMO, since we're half way through this election, they should be added to the 1952 ballot as 1st timers.

[Ace Venom]

I also noticed that I overlooked William Bell Sr. Those candidates will be first timers for 1952.

[Ace Venom]

I was hoping to have 12 VC votes by the end of the day. I can extend the voting time for this if need be.

[Ace Venom]

The five day mark was passed yesterday. I'll extend this vote until tomorrow. Remember that anyone from the VC can vote. I just need two more VC members to vote. If I don't get them, I'll tally what I have.

[bambambaseball]

The five day mark was passed yesterday. I'll extend this vote until tomorrow. Remember that anyone from the VC can vote. I just need two more VC members to vote. If I don't get them, I'll tally what I have.

Your not gonna count mine even though getting participation in anything Negro League related is like pulling teeth? Gee, thanks! :rolleyes:

[Ace Venom]

Your not gonna count mine even though getting participation in anything Negro League related is like pulling teeth? Gee, thanks! :rolleyes:

Calm down. Even SavoyBG wasn't a VC member for 1945, but I put him in here. I already have ten, so we'll see if anyone else pops in. I take requests to join the VC seriously because we already have so many members. If some of these people are no longer participating in the project, then I have no problem contracting the VC to current participants (1945 and 1947) and adding one more (you).

[AG2004]

My ballot

John Beckwith
Oscar Charleston
Andy Cooper
Rube Foster
Willie Foster
Josh Gibson
Frank Grant
Pete Hill
Bill Jackman
Grant "Home Run" Johnson
John Henry Lloyd
Jose Mendez
Bill Monroe
Alejandro Oms
Spotswood Poles
Cannonball Dick Redding
Bullet Joe Rogan
Louis Santop
Turkey Stearnes
Cristobal Torriente
Smokey Joe Williams
Jud Wilson

This is going to be a gigantic class, but so many of the inductees have waited long enough.

[Ace Venom]

In seven days, I have only collected 11 VC votes. I need at least 12 to tabulate the votes, so I've accepted bambambaseball's request to join the VC and I am adding his ballot to the final tally. That said, here's the vote tally:

1947 Negro League Players Final Ballot (12 ballots cast, 9 needed for election)
t1) Josh Gibson: 12 Votes (100%) - Elected
t1) John Henry "Pop" Lloyd: 12 Votes (100%) - Elected
t1) Bullet Rogan: 12 Votes (100%) - Elected
t1) Norman "Turkey" Stearnes: 12 Votes (100%) - Elected
t1) Smokey Joe Williams: 12 Votes (100%) - Elected
t6) John Beckwith: 11 Votes (91.67%) - Elected
t6) Oscar Charleston: 11 Votes (91.67%) - Elected
t6) Pete Hill: 11 Votes (91.67%) - Elected
t6) Jose Mendez: 11 Votes (91.67%) - Elected
t6) Richard "Cannonball Dick" Redding: 11 Votes (91.67%) - Elected
t6) Louis Santop: 11 Votes (91.67%) - Elected
t12) Andy Cooper: 10 Votes (83.33%) - Elected
t12) Frank Grant: 10 Votes (83.33%) - Elected
t12) Grant "Home Run" Johnson: 10 Votes (83.33%) - Elected
t12) Spot Poles: 10 Votes (83.33%) - Elected
t12) Cristobal Torriente: 10 Votes (83.33%) - Elected
t17) Willie Foster: 9 Votes (75.00%) - Elected
t17) Bill Monroe: 9 Votes (75.00%) - Elected
t17) Alejandro Oms: 9 Votes (75.00%) - Elected
t20) Rube Foster: 8 Votes (66.67%)
t20) Chino Smith: 8 Votes (66.67%)
t22) Bill Jackman: 6 Votes (50.00%)
t22) Sol White: 6 Votes (50.00%)
t22) Jud Wilson: 6 Votes (50.00%)
t25) John "Bud" Fowler: 5 Votes (41.67%)
t25) Ben Taylor: 5 Votes (41.67%)
t25) Jesse "Nip" Winters: 5 Votes (41.67%)
28) William "Judy" Johnson: 4 Votes (33.33%)
t29) Bingo DeMoss: 3 Votes (25.00%)
t29) John Donaldson: 3 Votes (25.00%)
t29) Bruce Petway: 3 Votes (25.00%)
t29) Cumberland Posey: 3 Votes (25.00%)
t29) George Stovey: 3 Votes (25.00%)
t34) William Dismukes: 2 Votes (16.67%)
t34) C.I. Taylor: 2 Votes (16.67%)
Players who received votes, but will not be on the 1952 Final Ballot
t36) Philip Cockrell: 1 Vote (8.33%)
t36) Floyd "Jelly" Gardner: 1 Vote (8.33%)
t36) Dave Malarcher: 1 Vote (8.33%)
t36) Alonzo Mitchell: 1 Vote (8.33%)
t36) Moses "Fleet" Walker: 1 Vote (8.33%)
t36) Frank Warfield: 1 Vote (8.33%)
t36) Frank Wickware: 1 Vote (8.33%)
t36) Clarence Williams: 1 Vote (8.33%)
t36) George Williams: 1 Vote (8.33%)

We elected a total of 19 players. Players who received no votes remain on the master list as do the players who received only one vote.

[jalbright]

I'm shocked that Jud Wilson drew only six votes. I'll be campainging for him next time out. I see we also elected three I'm reluctant to support, mostly because I don't have enough information to be comfortable in saying they belong: Andy Cooper (if you exclude his managerial successes), Bill Monroe and Spot Poles. I'm in no way set against any of them, but I'd love to hear some reasons folks supported them.

[Ace Venom]

From the research I've done on Andy Cooper (http://coe.ksu.edu/nlbemuseum/history/players/cooper.html), he compiled favorite W-L statistics and was one of the key players for the Kansas City Monarchs. Spot Poles (http://coe.ksu.edu/nlbemuseum/history/players/poles.html) was a great hitter. Of course, Jud Wilson was certainly a great hitter.

[jjpm74]

Chino Smith who sat at 8 votes (1 shy of election) despite a short career needs some discussion. I share jalbright's surprise in Jud Wilson not making it. Another tough case who deserves more discussion and consideration is Bill Jackman. I'll be supporting all 3 next election. Overall, I think the committee did a good job despite the notable oversight of Jud Wilson.

[Paul Wendt]

I suppose I misunderstood the point regarding Negro Leagues Players. That is my inference from seeing that I voted nearly alone for C.I. Taylor (2) and Cum Posey (3). I voted for Sol White (6) and Rube Foster (8) too, but they fit reasonably well on my big ballot as players.

[Ace Venom]

You're right. C.I. Taylor shouldn't have even been on this ballot. :banghead: That was more of an oversight on my part.

[jjpm74]

You're right. C.I. Taylor shouldn't have even been on this ballot. :banghead: That was more of an oversight on my part.


With an election of this magnitude, there's bound to be some oversights and some that showed up on a ballot that shouldn't have. Don't worry about it. Things will likely go more smoothly as time progresses. We've been pretty good as a group so far when it comes to correcting our own mistakes.

[gman5431]

I know i'm not part of this but this would be my ballot:


John Beckwith
Oscar Charleston
Andy Cooper
Jimmie Crutchfield
Rube Foster
Josh Gibson
Frank Grant
Pete Hill
Grant “Home Run” Johnson
William “Judy” Johnson
John Henry “Pop” Lloyd
Jose Mendez
Cumberland Posey
Richard “Cannonball Dick” Redding
Bullet Rogan
Louis Santop
Norman “Turkey” Stearnes
Cristobal Torriente
Moses “Fleet” Walker
Smokey Joe Williams
Jud Wilson

G Man

[jjpm74]

Please move to archive.

[Ace Venom]

Through additional research, I've been compiling a final ballot to 1952. Do not expect to see Satchel Paige on the ballot even though we will vote on him at the soonest opportunity. Some things to expect:

1) An actual age rule - I didn't use one for the 1947 ballot because it was already massive. Here it is the same as the player's ballot.
2) Overlooked players - Some of these players should have been eligible in 1947, but we'll be able to vote on them in 1952
3) Effects of Integration - This is precisely what will keep Satchel Paige off the 1952 ballot (I've been considering placing him on the regular ballot given the length of his contributions). Any potential candidate still playing in the major or minor league system in 1952 will not be considered. However, limited time in the minors or majors (one for majors or two minor league seasons) or the age or death rule would waive this concern.

[jalbright]

Through additional research, I've been compiling a final ballot to 1952. Do not expect to see Satchel Paige on the ballot even though we will vote on him at the soonest opportunity. Some things to expect:

1) An actual age rule - I didn't use one for the 1947 ballot because it was already massive. Here it is the same as the player's ballot.
2) Overlooked players - Some of these players should have been eligible in 1947, but we'll be able to vote on them in 1952
3) Effects of Integration - This is precisely what will keep Satchel Paige off the 1952 ballot (I've been considering placing him on the regular ballot given the length of his contributions). Any potential candidate still playing in the major or minor league system in 1952 will not be considered. However, limited time in the minors or majors (one for majors or two minor league seasons) or the age or death rule would waive this concern.

I understand all of the above ideas, except for the minor league rule assuming the guy never had a major league career. That one's a bit shakier, especially if you don't let them in to the vote before, oh, age 35.

[Ace Venom]

It doesn't really impact anyone that I've seen. I'll probably remove that rule because I've ignored Mexican League play in the past.