1947 Best of Baseball Election

[jalbright]

This is our twelfth election in this project. The entire rules follow.

This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EST May 22, 2009.

The prior election, and the ballots of the 1946 voters, are in this thread (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89751)

[jalbright]

Rules

1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance, or only the first vote will be counted. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

9) Each election will run for two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

10) No one is ineligible, nor are players from any league ineligible. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project. Candidates will not lose eligiblity after becoming eligible except by being elected as either a contributor or player.

11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration.

14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, take those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

20) I reserve the right to hold both 19th century and Negro League special elections in 2000 if we don't have a sufficient number in those categories by then. These elections probably will be limited to voters I feel are appropriately versed on the group of players to be considered. I do wish to only use this as a last resort, however, and only to ensure that those groups received what I regard as at least adequate bare minimum representation. I do not plan on sharing with you what I consider to meet those bare minimum standards, but I think that the numbers I am thinking of are well below the number of candidates that well informed observers believe are well qualified candidates from each group.

21) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

22) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread

[jalbright]

The players who become eligible in 1947 are:


Averill , Earl
Beckwith , John
Berg , Moe
Berry , Charlie
Clark , Watty
Hallahan , Bill
Lucas , Red
Simmons , Al


There are only two contributor candidates becoming eligible in 1947, Paul Krichell and Gabby Street

[jalbright]

The 1946 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:


player…………….. votes pts
Goslin , Goose 12 79
Clarke , Fred 12 78
Wilson, Jud 11 75
Barnes , Ross 8 73
Magee , Sherry 11 70
Collins , Jimmy 10 68
Sisler , George 12 67
Vance , Dazzy 10 54
Radbourn , C 9 45
Wheat , Zack 8 43
Jackson , Joe 4 38
Groh , Heinie 5 29
Thompson , S 3 24
Keeler , Willie 4 22
Start , Joe 3 22
Bennett , C 3 21
Johnson , HR 3 21
Traynor , Pie 4 20
Carey , Max 2 19
Stovey , Harry 4 17
Sutton , Ezra 2 17
Roush , Edd 2 16
Lyons , Ted 3 14
Caruthers , B 2 12
Chance , F 2 12
Flick , Elmer 2 12
Grant , Frank 3 12
Terry , Bill 3 12
Maranville , R 2 10
Waddell , Rube 2 10
Coveleski , S 3 9
Pearce , D 2 9
Bresnahan , R 2 8
McPhee , Bid 2 8
Evers , Johnny 2 6
Gore , George 1 6
Browning , P 2 5
Tinker, Joe 1 5
McGinnity , J 1 4
Duffy , Hugh 1 2
Jennings , H 1 2
Glasscock , J 1 1
Grimes , B 1 1
Hill , Pete…. 1 1
Kling, Johnny 1 1


The 1946 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:


contributor………… votes points
Klem, Bill..... 14 42
Barrow , Ed 12 29
Cartwright , A 6 26
Reach , A. J. 8 17
Landis , K 7 16
Commiskey , C 4 14
Rickey, Branch 4 12
Taylor , C. I. 2 8
Spink, Albert 2 7
Pearce, Dickey 2 6
Clarke , Fred 1 4
Hanlon , Ned 1 4
Caylor , O. P. 1 3
Dunn , Jack 1 3
Doubleday , A 1 2
Conlan , C 1 1
Connolly , Tom 1 1
Selee , Frank 1 1


I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.

[jalbright]

Members of the Best of Baseball Hall

Players


Pete Alexander
Cap Anson
Frank Baker
Dan Brouthers
Mordecai Brown
Jesse Burkett
Oscar Charleston
John Clarkson
Ty Cobb
Eddie Collins
Roger Connor
Sam Crawford
Bill Dahlen
George Davis
Ed Delahanty
Buck Ewing
Frankie Frisch
Lou Gehrig
Lefty Grove
Billy Hamilton
Gabby Hartnett
Harry Heilmann
Paul Hines
Rogers Hornsby
Walter Johnson
Tim Keefe
King Kelly
Nap LaJoie
Pop Lloyd
Christy Mathewson
Kid Nichols
Jim O'Rourke
Eddie Plank
Bullet Joe Rogan
Amos Rusie
Babe Ruth
Louis Santop
Tris Speaker
Turkey Stearnes
Mule Suttles
Cristobal Torriente
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh
John M. Ward
Deacon White
Smoky Joe Williams
George Wright
Cy Young


Contributors


Doc Adams
Henry Chadwick
Jim Creighton
Rube Foster
William Hulbert
Ban Johnson
Connie Mack
John McGraw
Francis Richter
Al Spalding
Harry Wright

[jalbright]

The complete list of eligible players:


Adams , Babe
Adams , Sparky
Altrock , Nick
Archer , Jimmy
Arlett , Buzz
Austin , Jimmy
Averill , Earl
Bancroft , Dave
Barnes , Ross
Barry , Jack
Battin , Joe
Beaumont , Ginger
Beckley , Jake
Beckwith , John
Bender , Chief
Bennett , Charlie
Benton , Larry
Berg , Moe
Bergen , Marty
Berry , Charlie
Bigbee , Carson
Bishop , Max
Blades , Ray
Blue , Lu
Bluege , Ossie
Bodie , Ping
Boley , Joe
Bond , Tommy
Bottomley , Jim
Bradley , Bill
Breitenstein , Ted
Bresnahan , Roger
Browning , Pete
Burns , George J.
Bush , Joe
Bush , Donie
Bush , Guy
Cadore , Leon
Camnitz , Howie
Carey , Max
Carrigan , Bill
Caruthers , Bob
Chance , Frank
Chapman , Ray
Chase , Hal
Chesbro , Jack
Childs , Cupid
Cicotte , Eddie
Clark , Watty
Clarke , Fred
Coakley , Andy
Collins , Jimmy
Collins , Shano
Combs , Earle
Conroy , Wid
Coombs , Jack
Cooper , Andy
Cooper , Wilbur
Coveleski , Stan
Crandall , Doc
Cravath , Gavvy
Creighton , Jim
Criger , Lou
Critz , Hughie
Cross , Lave
Crowder , Al
Cruise , Walt
Cummings , Candy
Cuyler , Kiki
Daubert , Jake
Davis , Harry
Dinneen , Bill
Doak , Bill
Donlin , Mike
Donovan , Bill
Dooin , Red
Doyle , Jack
Doyle , Larry
Duffy , Hugh
Dugan , Joe
Dunlap , Fred
Dykes , Jimmy
Earnshaw , George
Ehmke , Howard
Elberfeld , Kid
Elliott , Jumbo
Ens , Jewel
Evers , Johnny
Faber , Red
Falkenberg , Cy
Fitzsimmons , Freddie
Fletcher , Art
Flick , Elmer
Fonseca , Lew
Foster , Eddie
Fraser , Chick
Galvin , Pud
Glasscock , Jack
Gleason , Kid
Gonzalez , Mike
Gore , George
Goslin , Goose
Gowdy , Hank
Grant , Eddie
Grant , Frank
Grantham , George
Griffith , Clark
Grimes , Burleigh
Grimm , Charlie
Groh , Heinie
Hahn , Noodles
Haines , Jesse
Hallahan , Bill
Hargrave , Bubbles
Harris , Bucky
Herzog , Buck
Hill , Pete
Hinchman , Bill
Hooper , Harry
Hoyt , Waite
Huggins , Miller
Irwin , Charlie
Jackman , Will
Jackson , Joe
Jennings , Hughie
Johnson , Home Run
Johnson , Judy
Jones , Charley
Jones , Fielder
Jones , Sam P.
Jordan , Tim
Joss , Addie
Judge , Joe
Kamm , Willie
Keeler , Willie
Kelley , Joe
Kerr , Dickie
Killefer , Bill
Kilroy , Matt
Kling , Johnny
Knabe , Otto
Kremer , Ray
Lange , Bill
Larkin , Henry
Latham , Arlie
Leach , Freddy
Leach , Tommy
Leever , Sam
Lewis , Duffy
Lobert , Hans
Long , Herman
Lowe , Bobby
Lucas , Red
Lundy , Dick
Luque , Dolf
Lyons , Denny
Lyons , Ted
Magee , Sherry
Manush , Heinie
Maranville , Rabbit
Marberry , Firpo
Marquard , Rube
Mathews , Bobby
Mays , Carl
McAleer , Jimmy
McCarthy , Tommy
McCormick , Jim
McGinnity , Joe
McGowan , Bill
McInnis , Stuffy
McLean , Larry
McManus , Marty
McPhee , Bid
McVey , Cal
Meadows , Lee
Mendez , Jose
Meusel , Bob
Milan , Clyde
Miller , Bing
Miller , Dots
Miller , Hack
Moore , Dobie
Moran , Pat
Mostil , Johnny
Mullane , Tony
Murphy , Danny
Murray , Red
Nehf , Art
O'Doul , Lefty
Oeschger , Joe
O'Farrell , Bob
O'Leary , Charlie
Oms , Alejandro
O'Neill , Steve
O'Neill , Tip
Orr , Dave
Pabor , Charlie
Paskert , Dode
Pearce , Dickey
Peckinpaugh , Roger
Peitz , Heinie
Pennock , Herb
Perdue , Hub
Perkins , Cy
Phillippe , Deacon
Pike , Lip
Pipp , Wally
Poles , Spotswood
Pruett , Hub
Quinn , Jack
Radbourn , Charlie
Raymond , Bugs
Redding , Dick
Remsen , Jack
Rice , Sam
Richardson , Hardy
Ring , Jimmy
Ritchey , Claude
Rixey , Eppa
Robertson , Dave
Rommel , Eddie
Root , Charlie
Roush , Edd
Rucker , Nap
Rudolph , Dick
Ruel , Muddy
Ryan , Jimmy
Schacht , Al
Schaefer , Germany
Schalk , Ray
Schang , Wally
Schreckengost , Ossie
Schulte , Frank
Scott , Everett
Scott , Jack
Severeid , Hank
Sewell , Joe
Sewell , Luke
Seymour , Cy
Sheckard , Jimmy
Sherdel , Bill
Shocker , Urban
Simmons , Al
Sisler , George
Smith , Earl
Smith , Sherry
Sparks , Tully
Stahl , Jake
Start , Joe
Steinfeldt , Harry
Stephenson , Riggs
Stovey , Harry
Street , Gabby
Sukeforth , Clyde
Sutton , Ezra
Sweeney , Bill
Tannehill , Jesse
Taylor , Ben
Tenney , Fred
Terry , Bill
Thomas , Ira
Thompson , Sam
Tiernan , Mike
Tinker , Joe
Toney , Fred
Traynor , Pie
Turner , Terry
Uhle , George
Van Haltren , George
Vance , Dazzy
Veach , Bobby
Waddell , Rube
Walberg , Rube
Wallace , Bobby
Wambsganss , Bill
Warfield , Frank
Welch , Mickey
Wheat , Zack
White , Sol
White , Will
Whitehill , Earl
Williams , Cy
Williams , Ken
Williamson , Ned
Willis , Vic
Wilson , Hack
Wilson , Jimmie
Wilson , Jud
Witt , Whitey
Wood , Joe
Wright , Glenn
Yerkes , Steve
Youngs , Ross
Zachary , Tom
Zimmer , Chief


The complete list of eligible contributors:


Abe , Iso
Bancroft , Frank
Barrow , Ed
Bolden, Ed
Bulkely , Morgan
Cartwright , Alexander
Caylor , O. P.
Chance , Frank
Clarke , Fred
Commiskey , Charlie
Conlan , Charles
Connolly , Tom
Cooper , Andy
Cummings , Candy
Dinneen , Bill
Doubleday , Abner
Dreyfuss , Barney
Dunn , Jack
Elias , Al Munro
Foster , John B.
Fullerton , Hugh
Gleason , Kid
Griffith , Clark
Hanlon , Ned
Hillerich , John
Huggins , Miller
Jennings , Hughie
Klem , Bill
Krichell, Paul
Landis , Kenesaw
Lardner , Ring
Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
McCarthy , Tommy
Mendez , Jose
Mills , A. G.
Moran , Pat
Mutrie , Jim
Navin , Frank
Norworth, Jack
Osborn , Frank
Reach , A. J.
Rice, Grantland
Rickey, Branch
Robinson , Wilbert
Ruppert , Jacob
Selee , Frank
Shibe , Ben
Spink, Albert
Stallings , George
Street, Gabby
Taylor , C. I.
Thayer , Ernest
Warfield , Frank
White , Sol
Wilkinson , J. L.
Wilson , Horace

[jalbright]

My ballot:

Players
1. Al Simmons
2. Sherry Magee
3. Zack Wheat
4. Jud Wilson
5. Fred Clarke
6. Dazzy Vance
7. Harry Stovey
8. Goose Goslin
9. Ted Lyons
10. Burleigh Grimes
11. Pud Galvin
12. Joe McGinnity

Contributors
1. Branch Rickey
2. Bill Klem
3. Ed Barrow
4. Kennesaw Landis
5. Miller Huggins

[Ubiquitous]

1. Sherry Magee
2. Pie Traynor
3. Heinie Groh
4. Al Simmons
5. Max Carey
6. Frank Chance
7. Rabbit Marranville
8. Bid McPhee
9. Joe Tinker
10. Johnny Evers
11. Earl Averill
12. Roger Bresnahan


1. Charles Comiskey
2. Ed Barrow
3. Jack Dunn
4. A.J. Reach
5. Bill Klem

[leecemark]

1) Ross Barnes
2) Fred Clarke
3) Jimmy Collins
4) Al Simmons
5) Charlie Bennett
6) Dazzy Vance
7) Charlie Radbourne
8) Rube Waddell
9) Goose Goslin
10) Sherry Magee
11) Jud Wilson
12) Ted Lyons



1) Alexander Cartwright
2) Dickey Pearce
3) Branch Rickey
4) Commissioner Landis
5) Bill Klem

[Brad Harris]

Players
1. Al Simmons
2. Goose Goslin
3. Sherry Magee
4. Fred Clarke
5. George Sisler
6. Edd Roush
7. Jud Wilson
8. Dazzy Vance
9. Heinie Groh
10. Zach Wheat
11. Earl Averill
12. Ted Lyons


Contributors
1. Ed Barrow
2. Alfred H. Spink
3. Bill Klem
4. Frank Selee
5. Branch Rickey

[jjpm74]

Players:

1. Ross Barnes
2. Al Simmons
3. Ezra Sutton
4. Joe Start
5. Jimmy Collins
6. Goose Goslin
7. Charlie Bennett
8. Rabbit Maranville
9. George Sisler
10. Jud Wilson
11. Pie Traynor
12. Buzz Arlett

Contributors:

1. C. I. Taylor
2. Branch Rickey
3. Bill Klem
4. Charley Comiskey
5. Al Reach

[dgarza]

Players

1. Al Simmons
2. Sam Thompson
3. Joe Jackson
4. Ross Barnes
5. George Sisler
6. Goose Goslin
7. Harry Stovey
8. Willie Keeler
9. Bill Terry
10. Charley Radbourn
11. Pete Browning
12. Hugh Duffy


Contributors

1. Branch Rickey
2. Kenesaw Landis
3. Alexander Cartwright
4. Abner Doubleday
5. Charles Conlon

[bambambaseball]

Players:

1. Al Simmons
2. Ross Barnes
3. Charlie Bennett
4. Jimmy Collins
5. Ezra Sutton
6. George Sisler
7. Bob Caruthers
8. Roger Bresnahan
9. Dickey Pearce
10. Sherry Magee
11. Jud Wilson
12. Goose Goslin

Contributers:

1. Bill Klem
2. O.P. Caylor
3. Ed Barrow
4. A.J. Reach
5. Charles Commiskey

[Dogdaze]

Players:

1. Al Simmons
2. Jud Wilson
3. Jimmy Collins
4. Ross Barnes
5. George Sisler
6. Sam Thompson
7. Old Hoss Radbourn
8. Zack Wheat
9. Frank Grant
10. Dazzy Vance
11. Goose Goslin
12. Rube Waddell

Contributors:

1. C. I. Taylor
2. Bill Klem
3. Ed Barrow
4. Branch Rickey
5. A.J. Reach

[PVNICK]

1. Al Simmons
2. George Sisler
3. Goose Goslin
4. Jimmy Collins
5. Hoss Radbourne
6. Pie Traynor
7. Earl Averill
8. Bob Caruthers
9. Bill Terry
10. Dazzy Vance
11. Stan Coveleski
12. Sherry Magee

1. AJ Reach
2. Albert Spink
3. Barrow
4. Landis
5. Klem

I bumped Goslin up. I missed the character portion of the rules until it was discussed last thread so Jackson moves out and Magee moves in.

[Captain Cold Nose]

1. George Sisler
2. Goose Goslin
3. Al Simmons
4. Willie Keeler
5. Charles Radbourne
6. Jud Wilson
7. Jimmy Collins
8. Harry Stovey
9. Frank Grant
10. Pete Hill
11. Zack Wheat
12. Dazzy Vance

Contributors

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Ned Hanlon
3. Bill Klem
4. Ed Barrow
5. A.J. Reach

[jalbright]

We now have a quorum on both ballots.

[J W]

Players

1. Al Simmons
2. Joe Jackson
3. Jud Wilson
4. Frank Grant
5. George Sisler
6. Rube Waddell
7. Sherry Magee
8. Stan Coveleski
9. Charlie Radbourn
10. Fred Clarke
11. Pie Traynor
12. Dazzy Vance

Contributors

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Fred Clarke
3. Bill Klem
4. Ed Barrow
5. Ned Hanlon

[Freakshow]

1 Al Simmons
2 Goose Goslin
3 Fred Clarke
4 Jud Wilson
5 Ross Barnes
6 Jimmy Collins
7 Joe Start
8 Dazzy Vance
9 Zack Wheat
10 George Sisler
11 Sherry Magee
12 Red Faber

[Paul Wendt]

We now have a quorum on both ballots.

How do you all queue these people so decisively?
Are many of you working with deep queues that include several also-rans and forthcomers?


> 5. Miller Huggins

Jim,
Do you give Huggins much credit for his play? Has he moved up in your esteem relative to Taylor and Wilkinson or is this a long-held position? I see that Taylor has a couple of #1 votes. Meanwhile I have expected Wilkinson to return to the rankings (although I plunked for Tommy Connolly at #5 myself last year).

[jalbright]

I've done rankings for players for various projects here, so when I look at things a week out (and with the advantage of knowing who's most likely to be elected by virtue of doing the official count), I can make my most of my decisions on that aspect of the next "year's" ballot before this "year" ends. Truthfully, I'm already thinking about the 1948 election, though it's extra difficult because there are at least 4 and probably 5 guys I would like to add to the ballot, but I don't like cutting guys from the existing ballot, and it's impossible for more than three to be elected (and maybe only one or two will be). In a way, it's like chess--you have the time the other guy(s) are making their move(s) to consider what you'll do next.

As for the contributor list, if someone who's doing well or I think may do well with the other voters (like Rickey), they've got an excellent chance to be added to the ballot. After that, it's a bit of a dart board selection. I tried J L Wilkinson, with no other support materializing, so I packed him up for later and tried others.\

Huggins gets some credit for his play, but he's also the most successful manager in the majors of those we can choose from right now, IMHO. I was specifically looking for a manager, so that pushed him up. I think Taylor will be in for a long grind, as he took until near the bitter end of the BBF HOF project to make it, and then with a good bit of prodding from me. If he gains momentum faster than I expect, I'll gladly jump on board, but for now, I'll go with Huggins over him. Wilkinson is probably also a long way off, based on how much support he's drawn, so he can wait at this early date, too. Come the 70's, I'll have to be a little more into trying to prioritize beyond who I like who can draw support, but until then, that's a major consideration.

[Paul Wendt]

Thanks. You have explained that approach to the contributors election before, and I have forgotten it. I'll try not to forget again.

[jalbright]

Thanks. You have explained that approach to the contributors election before, and I have forgotten it. I'll try not to forget again.

Don't worry about it. You're not obligated to remember everyone's approaches in this project (or others). When it comes to contributors, you're mixing apples, oranges, bananas, tomatoes, and so forth, and then this project asks you to pick a mere five, and then put them in order. Some guys, like Branch Rickey, stand out, but after that, one of the few obvious guides is which candidates are getting support. When we get down toward the point where the annual contributor selections end, I'll have to be more careful about using that guide--but we've got until the 1985 election for that. I figure that at least until 1970, this way is as good as any other.

[jalbright]

A couple of housekeeping matters:

1) We've got just over a week to go, and there are seven folks who voted in last election who have yet to vote in this one:

AG2004
AstrosFan
Paul Wendt
Tiboreau
Mr. Red
Sockeye
Domenic

I hope to see votes from at least some of them before the weekend is out. Sometime between Sunday afternoon and Monday night, those on the above list who haven't voted yet will get a reminder PM from me.

2) The 1948 classes will be interesting:

a) on the contributor side, we will add Bill Carrigan, Willie Harridge and Cum Posey. Posey is in the BBF HOF, so he'll eventually draw support, I'm sure.

b) The player side is loaded:

Bell , Cool Papa
Cochrane , Mickey
Davis , Curt
Gehringer , Charlie
Haas , Mule
Hafey , Chick
Herman , Babe
Hubbell , Carl
Lazzeri , Tony
Mackey , Biz
Thevenow , Tommy
Waner , Paul

Only Davis, Haas and Thevenow are guys who aren't likely to ever draw much (if any) support. Hafey, Herman and Lazzeri didn't do all that well in the BBF HOF voting, so I'd expect a similar result here. Mackey is not likely to make a lot of ballots right away, but he was elected to the BBF HOF, so I'd think he'll build some solid support eventually. The remaining five are likely to fight for the three election spots: Bell, Cochrane, Gehringer, Hubbell and Paul Waner. I'm almost certain to bump some player(s) off my ballot to make room for at least four and quite possibly all five of these--and all but Bell will likely be high on my ballot.

[Domenic]

01. Al Simmons
02. Goose Goslin
03. Dazzy Vance
04. Willie Keeler
05. Pie Traynor
06. Sherry Magee
07. Ross Barnes
08. Harry Stovey
09. Frank Grant
10. Rube Waddell
11. Zack Wheat
12. George Sisler

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Ned Hanlon
3. Bill Klem
4. Ed Barrow
5. Branch Rickey

[soberdennis]

I guess I'll chime in with a vote.
1.Joe Jackson
2. Al Simmons
3. Pie Traynor
4. Dazzy Vance
5. Fred Clarke
6. George Sisler
7. Bill Terry
8. Max Carey
9. Hack Wilson
10. Vic Willis
11.Joe McGinnity
12. Herb Pennock

Contributors
1. Kennesaw Mountain Landis
2. Branch Rickey
3.Jacob Ruppert
4. Grantland Rice
5. Bill Klem

[Paul Wendt]

Contributors
1. Kennesaw Mountain Landis
2. Branch Rickey
3. Jacob Ruppert
4. Grantland Rice
5. Bill Klem
Dennis,
In all these projects I hesitate to support any of Ruppert & Huston, Barrow, Huggins & McCarthy, and there may be more to follow in the second half of the century if the Yankees organization does not crumble. ;-)

Why do you support Ruppert in particular, before Barrow and Huggins who are now eligible too?
Would you also support Steinbrenner before Martin and Torre --and others whose names I don't know?

If you are you a student of Yankees history then I am doubly interested.
(My own expertise diminishes right about the time that McGraw and the American League both abandon Baltimore for New York City.)

[Paul Wendt]

Evidently I cast this ballot into Preview limbo a day or two ago --where one does "Preview Post" but then neglects to "Submit Reply".

Contributors
1. Rickey
2. Klem
3. Reach
4. Comiskey
5. Connolly

Branch Rickey enters my ballot in first slot. This year's integration of the Dodgers was a big success and other clubs have already followed. He was already one of our most successful executives with his work in St Louis and Brooklyn, perhaps taking first place(*). May the American League find two men who take on the Yankees so ably as Rickey has taken the Giants!

*Rickey served as president and field manager, later as business manager of the Cardinals. The team won its first pennant in the first season that he left the field but there seems to be a consensus to credit Rickey rather than owner/president Sam Breadon or the string of field managers with most of the club's remarkable success.

[jalbright]

I see Bill Monroe was elected in the Progressive Baseball Negro League vote, which is enough to make me add him to the 1948 class of eligibles (as if it wasn't well-stocked already ;)) If there are other names people want to nominate from the Negro Leagues that aren't already on the list, I'm certainly listening, especially to those who got 2 or more votes in the Progressive project.

[Paul Wendt]

I am already out on a few limbs with little or no company regarding Grant Johnson, George Gore, Bid McPhee, and Jack Glasscock. Under the circumstances I pass on Hardy Richardson in favor of the more popular Joe Start and Charlie Bennett. I rank them all about the same as Magee and Goslin, or Coveleski and Vance, and maybe half a dozen others.
--not including Sisler, Traynor, Keeler, and Stovey among our leaders.

Players
1 Clarke
2 Barnes
3 Simmons
4 Johnson G
5 Wilson J
6 Gore
7 Groh
8 Colllins J
9 McPhee
10 Glasscock
11 Start
12 Bennett

[Tiboreau]

1. Jud Wilson
2. Ted Lyons
3. Elmer Flick
4. Dazzy Vance
5. Ross Barnes
6. Grant "Home Run" Johnson
7. Fred Clarke
8. Al Simmons
9. Pete Hill
10. Heinie Groh
11. Hughie Jennings
12. Willie Keeler

[henrich]

Contributors:

01 Landis
02 Cartwright
03 Commiskey
04 Rickey
05 Klem

Players:
01 Goslin
02 Barnes
03 Magee
04 Wheat
05 Simmons
06 Sisler
07 McInnis
08 Pennock
09 Galvin
10 Welch, Mickey
11 Bottomley
12 Duffy

[jalbright]

bump to keep it on the first page.

[jalbright]

As I post this, just about 31 1/4 hours to go in this election.

[Sockeye]

1. Simmons , Al
2. Lyons , Ted
3. Clarke , Fred
4. Jackson , Joe
5. Wheat , Zack
6. Vance , Dazzy
7. Goslin , Goose
8. Keeler , Willie
9. Rixey , Eppa
10. Magee , Sherry
11. Galvin , Pud
12, Coveleski, Stan

1. Klem, Bill
2. Barrow , Ed
3. Cartwright , A
4. Reach , A. J.
5. Landis , K

[AG2004]

My ballot

PLAYERS
1. Al Simmons
2. Jud Wilson
3. Joe Start
4. Home Run Johnson
5. Hoss Radbourn
6. Fred Clarke
7. Dickey Pearce
8. Joe McGinnity
9. Sherry Magee
10. Dazzy Vance
11. Elmer Flick
12. Jimmy Collins

CONTRIBUTORS
1. Branch Rickey
2. Kenesaw Mountain Landis
3. Al Reach
4. Dickey Pearce
5. Frank Selee


Huggins gets some credit for his play, but he's also the most successful manager in the majors of those we can choose from right now, IMHO. I was specifically looking for a manager, so that pushed him up.

Huggins had six pennants with the Yankees, while Frank Selee had five with Boston. On the other hand, Huggins had that clunker of a season in 1925. Furthermore, Selee did better in Chicago than Huggins did in St. Louis -- and the Chicago club Selee helped to put together the team would go on to dominate the game in the five years after his health forced him out of the game.

Advantage, Selee.

[Paul Wendt]

Al Simmons is the subject of one of the longest player entries in the first Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract. Partly it is the occasion to tell more about the A's and Connie Mack and some teammates, but there is a lot of information about Simmons. James concludes thus,
Almost everything that one could say in characterizing Simmons' play would also apply to Al Oliver-- ... [he covers play and person]
Perhaps, at his very best, Simmons was Al Oliver raised to the power of George Brett or Jim Rice, but I doubt that he had the same impact on his own time that those two players have had on our time. He was a fine player.
Twenty years ago, I highlighted that beginning and end of the concluding paragraph (quoted) with a vertical line alongside and an exclamation mark at the doubt about impact. Presumably I thought that was a remarkable downgrade of Simmons and damnation with faint praise.

Today I ranked him below Ross Barnes which Bill James would highlight with an exclamation mark in the margin.

[jalbright]

We had 19 player ballots, and elected Al Simmons, Goose Goslin, and Ross Barnes. The final results for the players are:


Player…………… votes points
Simmons, Al 19 205
Goslin , Goose 13 98
Barnes , Ross 10 97
Wilson, Jud 12 90
Sisler , George 13 86
Clarke , Fred 10 84
Magee , Sherry 12 72
Vance , Dazzy 13 70
Collins , Jimmy 9 65
Radbourn , C 7 43
Wheat , Zack 8 43
Jackson , Joe 4 42
Traynor , Pie 6 40
Keeler , Willie 5 29
Lyons , Ted 5 28
Bennett , C 4 25
Johnson , HR 3 25
Start , Joe 3 25
Groh , Heinie 4 23
Stovey , Harry 4 22
Grant , Frank 4 21
Sutton , Ezra 2 18
Thompson , S 2 18
Waddell , Rube 4 16
Terry , Bill 3 14
Carey , Max 2 13
Flick , Elmer 2 12
Caruthers , B 2 11
Maranville , R 2 11
Averill, Earl 3 10
Pearce , D 2 10
McPhee , Bid 2 9
Coveleski , S 3 8
Galvin , Pud 3 8
McGinnity , Joe 3 8
Chance , Frank 1 7
Gore , George 1 7
Hill , Pete….... 2 7
Roush , Edd 1 7
Bresnahan , R 2 6
McInnis, Stuffy 1 6
Pennock, Herb 2 6
Rixey , Eppa 1 4
Tinker, Joe 1 4
Wilson , Hack 1 4
Evers , Johnny 1 3
Glasscock , J 1 3
Grimes , B 1 3
Welch , Mickey 1 3
Willis , Vic 1 3
Bottomley , Jim 1 2
Browning , Pete 1 2
Duffy , Hugh 2 2
Jennings , H 1 2
Arlett, Buzz 1 1
Faber , Red 1 1


We had 17 contributor ballots, and elected Bill Klem. The final results for the contributors are:


Contributors……….. votes points
Klem, Bill…… 15 42
Rickey, Branch 11 37
Barrow , Ed 10 31
Cartwright , A 7 30
Landis , K 8 25
Reach , A. J. 9 20
Commiskey , C 5 13
Taylor , C. I. 2 10
Hanlon , Ned 3 9
Spink, Albert 2 8
Pearce, Dickey 2 6
Caylor , O. P. 1 4
Clarke , Fred 1 4
Dunn , Jack 1 3
Ruppert , Jacob 1 3
Selee , Frank 2 3
Doubleday , A 1 2
Rice, Grantland 1 2
Conlan , C 1 1
Connolly , Tom 1 1
Huggins , M 1 1