11yr old Pitching Soreness - Feedback Please

[marklaker]

My 11 year old son is experiencing significant soreness this morning after pitching in a game last night. I'm concerned because naturally any time he has discomfort I want to be attentive given the delicacy of a growing young body, but even more so today because he generally experiences only "stiffness" or "light soreness" (his terms) after a turn on the mound and today he's quite clear that the soreness is much more pronounced.

As a disclaimer, let me identify that he threw 81 pitches last night (Saturday) and 78 pitches the previous Tuesday. I expect to take some heat from those who may feel I'm pushing his limits and not adequately protecting his body, and that's ok because I'm doing some soul searching myself this morning and will re-evaluate how we proceed in the future.

Now let me explain where the soreness is occuring. Employing the imperfect but useful 1-10 scale of soreness (i.e., 10 greatest, 1 least), he lists elbow as 0, the forearm as a 1, the biceps as a 2, the triceps as a 4, the deltoid as a 5, and the area along and underneath the scapula as a 7. It's the last two areas that create the most concern because of both the severity and absence of significant soreness in previous efforts.

The soreness in his back has me wondering if he was trying to reach back for a little extra (we were playing for first place last night) and in doing so employed improper mechanics, such as they are. I didn't detect any difference nor did I see a variation in velocity from previous outings but I'm far from expert and may have been distracted by the success he was having (i.e., focusing on the outcome rather than procedure).

I'm not sure whether this is a significant factor or not, but he appears to be in the midst of a growth spurt, having grown an inch in the past three weeks. Could this possibly have an impact?

Second disclaimer: he plays on both travel and rec teams and pitches for each. I've kept both coaches apprised of his efforts for the other team and delicately negotiated his workload to try and avoid overuse. He felt fine entering last night's game and has never complained of a sore or fatigued arm prior to an outing.

Third disclaimer: I was disappointed to learn that he began experiencing some discomfort while facing the last three hitters of the evening but neglected to tell anyone because he wanted to finish the inning. I've told him time and again to let the coach know immediately when he feels pain or fatigue in his arm.

I plan to keep him from throwing today and tomorrow and administer periodic ice treatments. He has a game Tuesday but isn't scheduled to pitch.

Sorry for the long-winded preamble, but I wanted to set the stage before requesting feedback from either those of you who've travelled this road, or those of you with experience in the medical field who can provide their perspective.

Thanks!

[marklaker]

Sorry to have bothered anyone with this. The events in this post are the result of very poor judgement and a failure to fulfill my role as parent protector. This is wake-up call I won't ignore.

[mudvnine]

It seems as though you have given this some thought and are self critical regarding what has transpired which is very commendable. I won't go into a long winded answer as I'm no expert in the pitching field, but I did find some a few months ago and will link you to their lectures so you have some quantitative material to work with.

Dr. Glenn Fleisig's presentation at the 2007 Little League International Congress in Houston, Texas; understanding and preventing injuries as well as a review of research that tracks the risk of pain with fatigue. (http://www.littleleague.org/pitchcount/pc/sect2/index.htm)

And Dr. James Andrews from the same conference, speaking on the risk factors of year-round throwing, seasonal overuse and event overuse. (http://www.littleleague.org/pitchcount/pc/sect3/index.htm)

Please don't take the above links as me being critical of what has transpired to this point with your son, his pitching, or arm pain; I am merely providing information to offer assistance to you in making the decisions on how, when, and for how long your son pitches in future outings and seasons.


Good luck,
Mud

[DukeK]

There was a recent lengthy thread here you should check out if you haven't already: http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=56599

Find a good local sports doctor, preferably one that works with pitchers if you want to be certain about what you are doing.

You should also either find a good local pitching instructor and/or post him here or some other pitching sights and have his mechanics looked at if you are going to have him throw that much.

[azmatsfan]

It's easy to be critical of other parents, but I can relate to your situation. My 10-yr-old threw 90 pitches in the semi-finals of a tournament against a top team. I was wrestling in my mind with going up to the manager when I saw he was going out for his last inning, but chose not to. Honestly I didn't want to be the bad guy for pulling him out of the game. Although my son's arm was fine, I was kicking myself for not telling the manager I wanted him pulled sooner. The games at this age are meaningless in the long run. (in terms of winning and losing that is). The coach apologized after the game admitting he left him in too long. I guess my point is that it sounds like you understand that we need to protect our son's arms, so don't beat yourself up over a temporary lapse in judgment. You aren't the first parent to get caught up in the moment.

As far as his arm, I wouldn't look for armchair diagnoses from this site, but get him to the doctor if the pain persists. Hopefully it's just inflamation and not an injury.

[marklaker]

Thanks to all who responded and an extra thanks for the links to further info. I have in fact already done quite a bit of research since first posting and have a much better idea of how to proceed in the future.

AZMATSFAN,

Thanks for your personal anecdote. In my case, I got caught up in the moment and lost sight of my responsibility.

Mark

[KevinOK]

What a delima. I am too struggling with how much is too much. My 9 year old is in his second season of kid pitch and pitching. Last fall he would come in to close or relieve for 1-2 innings 1-2 games a week, so pitch count was not a big deal. Now he is starting. We did a fair amount of long toss before the season started and still a couple times a week but not the day or two before he is scheduled to pitch. His arm strength has grown immensely. I tell him that he should not be throwing as hard as he can during the games, about 80% but do pitch for accuracy so pitch count worry is a little less.

Having said that his first game of the season he went 96 pitches, I was cringing and asked him between every inning how he felt and he was fine and I believe he was. He claimed no soreness after the game or even a few hours later or the next morning. Roughly about 20 hours later before his next game (tournament) I warmed him up real slow and stretched him out real good even before starting to throw. He felt fine and played a position the whole game and was fine.

I don't plan on letting pitch that many pitches in a game again. Since then he has pitched 2 more games at roughly 60 pitches and 44 pitches.

But again, as he gets older and starts to throw harder the count will really be important.

I know he throws a lot of slower balls over the plate just to confuse batters and his harder throws are less than his full speed which he has less control over, so that is somewhat relieving.

But again, how much, how many pitches in a week, how much long toss, how much plain jane catch. I seen so many pitch count tables my eyes water.

I feel like I am learning as I go.

[rkbenn]

It's easy to be critical of other parents, but I can relate to your situation. My 10-yr-old threw 90 pitches in the semi-finals of a tournament against a top team. I was wrestling in my mind with going up to the manager when I saw he was going out for his last inning, but chose not to. Honestly I didn't want to be the bad guy for pulling him out of the game. Although my son's arm was fine, I was kicking myself for not telling the manager I wanted him pulled sooner. The games at this age are meaningless in the long run. (in terms of winning and losing that is). The coach apologized after the game admitting he left him in too long. I guess my point is that it sounds like you understand that we need to protect our son's arms, so don't beat yourself up over a temporary lapse in judgment. You aren't the first parent to get caught up in the moment.

As far as his arm, I wouldn't look for armchair diagnoses from this site, but get him to the doctor if the pain persists. Hopefully it's just inflamation and not an injury.

my son last year never threw more than 50 pitches (age 9) in BP or game. we went into a must win game and I threw him 65 pitches and I felt awful.

[Dave Sanchez]

I guess all us dads are going through the same dilemma. My son has become a very good pitcher and now gets called on more and more to pitch more innings. I have set his pitch limit to 60 max. We only do two long toss sessions a week and a 20 pitch bull pen to work on mechanics and accuracy. Is that too much? How do we really know what a safe pitch count is? I too have googled away seeking answers. My son loves to pitch I guess right now i am going to error on the side of caution.

[bbb3601]

I am a little curious how many inning's these are out there to throw 80+ pitches? I know every kid is different and so is their individual result's but wow. My kid has thrown 10 innings this year. 5 in each game. (we just started our season) Game one 56 pitch's 1 ER 1BB. Game two 47 pitches 0 run 0 BB 5 inning run rule against an elite team. We focus on pitch location, speed changes, keeping the ball down, and solid defense. I just don't understand how you could justify a kid ever hitting a mid 80's pitch count. IMHO if you need a kid to throw that much to win a game it's time to develop more arms or better defense. Our travel leaders did instill a 70 pitch max this year to prevent coach's and parents from the need to make decisions. We (The state or whatever you call it) left USSSA and are with Nation's now so they may have had something to do with that? Cards signed by both teams and turned in or you loose the game.

[Dave Sanchez]

bbb3601,

USSA here in Florida has a 6 inning limit for a weekend tournament and I have also seen kids hit some insane pitch counts. AAU is not any better and I agree with you on the location and change of speeds as being the key. My son will throw 3-4 innings throwing around 40 pitches on average. Many times he will have 12 pitch inning just because rather then trying to blow them away he keeps it on the corners and they hit a weak groundball. I would like to see travel ball here in Florida instill pitch counts as they have for you in your state. Especialy since we play year round here in FL, the pitch counts can really begin to add up. I have not heard of nations here in Florida.

[All-StarLF1713]

im 14. i threw less than 30 pitches in a game on saturday. today is monday. i also threw some tennis balls and in dodgeball in school i threw alot. also, on sat i threw harder than ever. my shoulder and elbow hurts. he should be fine. have him alternate 15 mins on ice and 15 mins of heat. cease throwing until the pain subsides and moniter the pain.

[g-mac]

im 14. my shoulder and elbow hurts. he should be fine. have him alternate 15 mins on ice and 15 mins of heat. cease throwing until the pain subsides and moniter the pain.
No offense, but I'd have to say that is nonsense. If your son is hurting bad enough to address it with you, I'd probably have it checked out just to be on the safe side. There's no sense in making a bad situation worse.

[rkbenn]

im 14. i threw less than 30 pitches in a game on saturday. today is monday. i also threw some tennis balls and in dodgeball in school i threw alot. also, on sat i threw harder than ever. my shoulder and elbow hurts. he should be fine. have him alternate 15 mins on ice and 15 mins of heat. cease throwing until the pain subsides and moniter the pain.

Young man, your elbow and shoulder should not hurt. I'd be very concerned. Being hurt and fatigued are too different things. You're elbow and shoulder hurting is not a part of the game.

[bbb3601]

bbb3601,

USSA here in Florida has a 6 inning limit for a weekend tournament and I have also seen kids hit some insane pitch counts. AAU is not any better and I agree with you on the location and change of speeds as being the key. My son will throw 3-4 innings throwing around 40 pitches on average. Many times he will have 12 pitch inning just because rather then trying to blow them away he keeps it on the corners and they hit a weak groundball. I would like to see travel ball here in Florida instill pitch counts as they have for you in your state. Especialy since we play year round here in FL, the pitch counts can really begin to add up. I have not heard of nations here in Florida.

I don't claim to know an 1/8th of most people here but I have seen the positive's of this pitch count rule already. Here is nations site ( Jake hope this is ok) http://www.nations-baseball.com/ Ohio (us) http://www.nationsohio.com/ and our local group www.coybl.org
we had a few teams and players leave because of these rules. They felt they should be free to do as they like. I believe USSSA has all but left Ohio I also believe we have no local director. That being said I don't know if Nations was the cause for the new rule, but who cares I love it. After all ground balls are more democratic!!

[KevinOK]

[QUOTE=bbb3601;1499833]I am a little curious how many inning's these are out there to throw 80+ pitches? I know every kid is different and so is their individual result's but wow. My kid has thrown 10 innings this year. 5 in each game. (we just started our season) Game one 56 pitch's 1 ER 1BB. Game two 47 pitches 0 run 0 BB 5 inning run rule against an elite team.

We focus on pitch location, speed changes, keeping the ball down, and solid defense.

I imagine most people do, but the last part can be the cause sometimes for extended innings and pitches, I know it was in my son's case.


I just don't understand how you could justify a kid ever hitting a mid 80's pitch count.

Did you ever pitch when you were young, I did and there was no rules, pitch counts etc. I remember pitching tournaments where you'd pitch morning and later that evening, going the distance in both games. Times have changed, and for me it is a new learning process. Our league has inning rules not pitch count rules and that changes for tournaments.

So do you enforce a throw count on catch for your son, 80 throws can be had in warm up in no time. Also do you subscribe to long toss? How often?

FWIW, 96 pitches was over 5 innings, a couple of innings of some really poor defense extended my son's pitch count, first game of the season.

There is a line between development of arm strength and over doing it. I know kids who pitch 50-60 pitches over 4-5 innings and their arm is so sore the next day they have trouble playing a position or batting. Other kids are less and others are more, obviously depending on the kids arm development and strength.

[Jake Patterson]

[QUOTE=bbb3601;1499833]So do you enforce a throw count on catch for your son, 80 throws can be had in warm up in no time. Also do you subscribe to long toss? How often?
I think (hope) we would all agree that:


throwing and pitching are different
throwing/pitching improperly has ramifications -doing so properly does not
throwing to warm up is not throwing at full speed

[KevinOK]

Well if you are pitching and not trying to throw as hard as you can then is it really that much different than say throwing at a longer distance?

The wear and/or exertion on your arm should be similar I would think.

Then one question I always have, what about the throws in between innings from the mound. You see some kid get in about 15 pitches before the ump tells the batter to step in, should those not also count towards a pitch count?

I mean the only difference is no batter right, the kid is still making a pitch.

[Jake Patterson]

Well if you are pitching and not trying to throw as hard as you can then is it really that much different than say throwing at a longer distance?

The wear and/or exertion on your arm should be similar I would think.

Then one question I always have, what about the throws in between innings from the mound. You see some kid get in about 15 pitches before the ump tells the batter to step in, should those not also count towards a pitch count?

I mean the only difference is no batter right, the kid is still making a pitch.It's been a while since I taught youngsters, but pitching and throwing at the HS level is two different things. Long toss is not pitching.

[KevinOK]

It's been a while since I taught youngsters, but pitching and throwing at the HS level is two different things. Long toss is not pitching.

So are you saying the arm motion is different?

[kylebee]

So are you saying the arm motion is different?

It absolutely is. In long toss, you crow-hop and throw the ball on an upwards trajectory. This is nothing like throwing off a mound that is sloped downwards where you do not get a running or hopping start.

[KevinOK]

Well yeah understand that but the arm is still going through a throwing motion regardless of release point. Your saying the throwing motion is completely different and I'm not seeing it regardless of body position.

Would long toss be closer to say pitching from the ground versus a mound, guess I'm having a tough time imagining how a mound makes that big a difference.

And I am specifically speaking about throwing from a mound at 80% versus long toss 100%.

[Baseball gLove]

It absolutely is. In long toss, you crow-hop and throw the ball on an upwards trajectory. This is nothing like throwing off a mound that is sloped downwards where you do not get a running or hopping start.

Have you even gone to a Jaeger camp? The Jaeger long tossers know better. Everything in Jaeger's long toss routine is geared toward using the body and a rhythm to throw. The pull down phase of the long toss routine is where the power develops. Jaeger's program is taught at several D-1 schools and is welcome by a couple of MLB teams. By the way, many pitchers in the MLB throw flat ground sessions between starts. When my son doesn't like a mound, because it is either too steep or too flat, he will throw a few crow hop pull downs to get his timing down. We saw a huge improvement after learning the Jaeger routine. He easily throws the ball well over 300 feet. His velocity is easily mid eighties and he only weighs 140 pounds. He throws harder from 3rd to 1st.

[bbb3601]

[QUOTE=bbb3601;1499833]I am a little curious how many inning's these are out there to throw 80+ pitches? I know every kid is different and so is their individual result's but wow. My kid has thrown 10 innings this year. 5 in each game. (we just started our season) Game one 56 pitch's 1 ER 1BB. Game two 47 pitches 0 run 0 BB 5 inning run rule against an elite team.

We focus on pitch location, speed changes, keeping the ball down, and solid defense.

I imagine most people do, but the last part can be the cause sometimes for extended innings and pitches, I know it was in my son's case.


I just don't understand how you could justify a kid ever hitting a mid 80's pitch count.

Did you ever pitch when you were young, I did and there was no rules, pitch counts etc. I remember pitching tournaments where you'd pitch morning and later that evening, going the distance in both games. Times have changed, and for me it is a new learning process. Our league has inning rules not pitch count rules and that changes for tournaments.

So do you enforce a throw count on catch for your son, 80 throws can be had in warm up in no time. Also do you subscribe to long toss? How often?

FWIW, 96 pitches was over 5 innings, a couple of innings of some really poor defense extended my son's pitch count, first game of the season.

There is a line between development of arm strength and over doing it. I know kids who pitch 50-60 pitches over 4-5 innings and their arm is so sore the next day they have trouble playing a position or batting. Other kids are less and others are more, obviously depending on the kids arm development and strength.

I wasn't trying to be a smart a$$, and I did state that every kid is different. I know how defense can lead to long innings etc, but if that is the case why leave him on the mound. I did pitch when I was young and so did my ENTIRE team. You are correct in saying their were no rules but our coach played some college ball and we never threw twice in the same day we had too many other options. You don't have to have a pitch count rule to follow one yourself. When he warms up before the game he plays catch, His arm has never hurt and playing in the field etc has never been an issue. We aren't big on the long toss just a preference. My only point was if the defense is that bad put another kid on the mound and let him go make the plays behind his pitcher. Trust me my kid has got beat up on just as much as the next, but dad and coach always have the pitch counter going. 1 inning......5 inning makes no difference to me the numbers don't lie. I am not saying you did anything wrong and I am sure you son is a great pitcher. I know how easy it is to get caught up in the moment I have been there.

[bbb3601]

Well if you are pitching and not trying to throw as hard as you can then is it really that much different than say throwing at a longer distance?

The wear and/or exertion on your arm should be similar I would think.

Then one question I always have, what about the throws in between innings from the mound. You see some kid get in about 15 pitches before the ump tells the batter to step in, should those not also count towards a pitch count?

I mean the only difference is no batter right, the kid is still making a pitch.

I know what you mean. I have seen some kids that would throw 50 between innings if you let them. Usually after 5 or 6 the umpire is getting antsy, and the ball is coming down. If not we have our catch bring it down and the ump assumes his position.

[rkbenn]

Have you even gone to a Jaeger camp? The Jaeger long tossers know better. Everything in Jaeger's long toss routine is geared toward using the body and a rhythm to throw. The pull down phase of the long toss routine is where the power develops. Jaeger's program is taught at several D-1 schools and is welcome by a couple of MLB teams. By the way, many pitchers in the MLB throw flat ground sessions between starts. When my son doesn't like a mound, because it is either too steep or too flat, he will throw a few crow hop pull downs to get his timing down. We saw a huge improvement after learning the Jaeger routine. He easily throws the ball well over 300 feet. His velocity is easily mid eighties and he only weighs 140 pounds. He throws harder from 3rd to 1st.

BG,

Long toss has been around for way longer than Alan's been alive. With that being said, Alan's program is very good, and I've been to his camp with my son. I especially like his approach to Long Toss. I've seen a huge improvement with my son, using his body more and strength when he throws.

His long toss program does not teach pitching mechanics. Alan and Jim do teach pitching mechanics though down in So. Cal.

[marklaker]

FWIW, I thought I'd bring some closure to the initial post that originated this thread. Played catch with my son last night and he confirmed there was no longer any soreness, just a very slight stiffness in the lat muscle below the armpit of his throwing arm.

Pitch count issue aside, I may have overeacted a bit regarding the soreness. If so, it was because he'd never previosuly identified any soreness in his scap or lat areas and it gave me pause. I'll continue to closely monitor him, but it appears he's fine.

If anything, this episode has made me focus on the issue of overuse and helped me acquire a greater understanding of what I need to do for his health and safety.

Still learning in my advanced age....

[KevinOK]

[QUOTE=KevinOK;1500221]

I wasn't trying to be a smart a$$, and I did state that every kid is different. I know how easy it is to get caught up in the moment I have been there.

Sorry I was not trying to imply you were. Those moments are tough sometimes and no doubt you have experienced them.


I will open another thread about pain, which ones are bad and which ones are just tired muscles. I'd welcome everyone's input.