70MPH 12 pitchers

[scorekeeper]

I didn’t want to hijack the Blown Away At the Plate thread, so I’m gonna start a new one.

There sure seems to be a lot more 70+ 12U pitchers on some individual teams than what we see at the LLWS and CRWS indicate. I’ve seen a LLWS team with 2 70+ kids on it, but sure don’t remember 3, and those are all star teams that can yank kids from any team.

One reason I bring it up is, I’m wonderin’ how these velocities are being measured. Another reason is, if a rec league team has 3 or even just 2 P’s that overpowering, do they ever lose a game?

[HYP]

I didn’t want to hijack the Blown Away At the Plate thread, so I’m gonna start a new one.

There sure seems to be a lot more 70+ 12U pitchers on some individual teams than what we see at the LLWS and CRWS indicate. I’ve seen a LLWS team with 2 70+ kids on it, but sure don’t remember 3, and those are all star teams that can yank kids from any team.

One reason I bring it up is, I’m wonderin’ how these velocities are being measured. Another reason is, if a rec league team has 3 or even just 2 P’s that overpowering, do they ever lose a game?

3 on one team would be tough.

I coached a major team and we had 1 pitcher who threw in the 70+ range. There was another team who had 2 pitchers on it that threw in the 70+ range. The team with 2 pitchers on it went undefeated for the year. The only games we lost that year were to them.

We lost but I never threw my best pitcher against them because I wanted to make sure we won the games we were suppose to win and take our chances against them.

Will we both made it to TOC and we had to play each other. I knew that my #1 against their #1 we would win and we did.

So yes they can lose with 2 70+ pitchers but they may be hard to beat in a series.

[Baseball gLove]

I didn’t want to hijack the Blown Away At the Plate thread, so I’m gonna start a new one.

There sure seems to be a lot more 70+ 12U pitchers on some individual teams than what we see at the LLWS and CRWS indicate. I’ve seen a LLWS team with 2 70+ kids on it, but sure don’t remember 3, and those are all star teams that can yank kids from any team.

One reason I bring it up is, I’m wonderin’ how these velocities are being measured. Another reason is, if a rec league team has 3 or even just 2 P’s that overpowering, do they ever lose a game?


You can usually find out which teams are telling the truth by how far they go in their respective all star or championship tournaments. Unfortunately, some of the teams making these claims meet up early in the brackets. One year my son's team was stacked 6 deep with arms throwing 70's or better and just fell short in Hawaii from making it to the Bronco 12U Pony World Series in Monterrey. This was the same year that nearby Conejo Valley Thousand Oaks were the US Little League Champions. They had a couple throwing 70 MPH as advertised during actual LLWS games. Nearby Hart of Valencia Bronco Pony also had a very strong team as did Simi Valley with each having a couple throwing 70 or better. You will find that all of these teams are a 30 minute freeway drive from each other.

[dominik]

I guess it's because the kids mature earlier and get bigger.

[beisbolcrazy22]

Still the question, how are these kids getting evaluated in the velocity? Radar? Stopwatch? Guess?

[shake-n-bake]

SK, not all the LLWS teams are AS teams. I remember reading about a team in our state that went to the championship round that had played together all year.

I think the velocities are measured mostly via SWAG. Honestly, that's where I got the 3 kids on my son's team at 70. My son has only been clocked once and that was quite some time ago. The guy who did it was really impressed with how fast this little kid could throw, so he went and borrowed a radar gun. He came up with 58. For his age, that'd have been pretty impressive, so I don't know how accurate that is. Then again, I don't know the first thing about radar guns either.

Mostly, I hear people talk and say that so and so throws this fast, and this kid throw this fast, etc., then by means of comparison to each other have come to believe that my son's team has 3 kids at or around 70.

Regardless if it's just above or below 70, they've got 3 kids that are skilled and bring it. They haven't lost yet or given up an earned run. One ball left the infield and another kid beat out an infield hit - that's it in 4 games. And, because we don't live in a small town, we live in a fairly affluent area where parents are sending kids to camps and clinics, and have no travel cannibalizing our LL yet, some of these kids getting mowed down at the plate can actually hit pretty decent.

The question is - Is it fun? Speaking for me personally (and, I put my feelings behind those of the kids), no it isn't fun to watch. It's boring. And, it bothers me when the kids run off the field, and coach / pitcher's dad congratulates one kid on a nice inning.

Cannot speak for all the kids, but my son whose always wanted to play for a dominant team, isn't really having fun. He told me he's ready to do some fishing. He's made one of the rare defensive put outs that have not been a K and pitched one inning - actually make that two defensive outs - he caught a pop up in front of the mound while pitching.

It's bordering on ridiculous. We had an 8-1 lead when our starter hit 59 pitches in the last game. I thought maybe my son would get a chance to come in and mop up, so the coach would have some flexibility with the kid that started. No luck though. In 3 different seasons last year, my son gave up a total of 6 runs (and they weren't all earned). So why you've got a 7 run lead and a kid that's thrown 60 pitches, another kid who is as good or better and begs for any pitching time at all, and you stick with the starter who doesn't get any more work anyway (we 10 runned them in the bottom of the inning) is beyond me.

[scorekeeper]

Still the question, how are these kids getting evaluated in the velocity? Radar? Stopwatch? Guess?

After having seen what seems about 9 million P’s get “gunned”, my guess is, if a P even throws 1 pitch in 50 at 70MPH, he’s forever gonna be known as a 70+ pitcher. Watching HS pitchers and how they’re touted is often laughable. I’ve seen kids who hit 84 once a game suddenly be know as mid 80’s pitchers, and if a kid hits 90, even in a bull pen, the next time the coach gives an interview, he’s got a pitcher who throws in the 90’s.

I’m seldom really interested in how hard a P is throwing, but I do want to know, if I’m not getting a CRUISING speed, I don’t even bother paying attention.

[Baseball gLove]

Still the question, how are these kids getting evaluated in the velocity? Radar? Stopwatch? Guess?

There are several radar guns that pop out during these tournaments.

One of my son's former coaches uses the radar gun ALL of the time. It is why he is not my son's pitching coach any more. The year we went to Hawaii, he was clocked up to 68 mph, consistent at 66. He reached 70 by Labor Day. He was a bad birthday 12 year old meaning the big Kahuna pitcher on the team was 11 months and 27 days older. I take my younger son to the batting cages and watch the same pitching coach whip out the radar gun for each session, even for 9 & 10 year olds. :crazy

[shake-n-bake]

I actually feel a bit apologetic for using any mph to describe my son or his teammates.

Today is the first time that I've ever told anyone he was clocked at 58. And, I don't think I know anyone here personally, I won't say how old he was then, and I would never (nor would he) say that to anyone in his youth baseball circles.

At 11 it's soooooooooo irrelevant. When I talk to him about velocity, I stress two or three things. One is you've got your fair share of it. Be appreciative and humble. Then we talk about what's going to keep his velocity increasing when other kids his age are topping out and hitting a wall.

When he gets to HS and throws harder than everyone else on his team hands down, then I'll take a little more interest in what the radar gun reads.

[scorekeeper]

SK, not all the LLWS teams are AS teams. I remember reading about a team in our state that went to the championship round that had played together all year.

That’s interesting. Not that I don’t believe it, but rather that I don’t really know what LL Inc officially calls those teams. As I think about it, I don’t remember them ever officially being called All Star teams. Also, I don’t rightly remember what the official method for choosing them is. I only remember how the teams in our league were chosen.

I think the velocities are measured mostly via SWAG. Honestly, that's where I got the 3 kids on my son's team at 70. My son has only been clocked once and that was quite some time ago. The guy who did it was really impressed with how fast this little kid could throw, so he went and borrowed a radar gun. He came up with 58. For his age, that'd have been pretty impressive, so I don't know how accurate that is. Then again, I don't know the first thing about radar guns either.

Mostly, I hear people talk and say that so and so throws this fast, and this kid throw this fast, etc., then by means of comparison to each other have come to believe that my son's team has 3 kids at or around 70.

I’m gonna guess that what you said is pretty much standard.

Regardless if it's just above or below 70, they've got 3 kids that are skilled and bring it. They haven't lost yet or given up an earned run. One ball left the infield and another kid beat out an infield hit - that's it in 4 games. And, because we don't live in a small town, we live in a fairly affluent area where parents are sending kids to camps and clinics, and have no travel cannibalizing our LL yet, some of these kids getting mowed down at the plate can actually hit pretty decent.

Don’t ever kid yourself that even the very best 12YO hitters do a whole lot of “bangin” against REAL 70+ pitching. Even though the comparable 60’ velocity is only 91 or so, it isn’t like there’s a 12YO on the face of the earth who has the technical skill, or both physical and mental maturity of a MLB player who’s been playing the game for at least 10-15 years.

The question is - Is it fun? Speaking for me personally (and, I put my feelings behind those of the kids), no it isn't fun to watch. It's boring. And, it bothers me when the kids run off the field, and coach / pitcher's dad congratulates one kid on a nice inning.

To me, that’s the most important question. If its not fun for you as a very interested party, how bad must it be for most of the players. And that’s exactly why I hate to see it. If even 1 kid leaves the game because he’s bored, to me that’s one too many.

Cannot speak for all the kids, but my son whose always wanted to play for a dominant team, isn't really having fun. He told me he's ready to do some fishing. He's made one of the rare defensive put outs that have not been a K and pitched one inning - actually make that two defensive outs - he caught a pop up in front of the mound while pitching.

It sounds like you and your boy are prime candidates for either starting or getting sucked up by a travel/select/tournament team, and I really believe a lot of players and parents go that route. Whether its on a team like you’re talking about, or playing against really terrible players makes no difference. No fun is no fun.

It's bordering on ridiculous. We had an 8-1 lead when our starter hit 59 pitches in the last game. I thought maybe my son would get a chance to come in and mop up, so the coach would have some flexibility with the kid that started. No luck though. In 3 different seasons last year, my son gave up a total of 6 runs (and they weren't all earned). So why you've got a 7 run lead and a kid that's thrown 60 pitches, another kid who is as good or better and begs for any pitching time at all, and you stick with the starter who doesn't get any more work anyway (we 10 runned them in the bottom of the inning) is beyond me.

Its really unfortunate that there are always more players who want to pitch or who could pitch to at least a fair degree, than there are available innings. Every year, and this is no exception, I have a very painful exchange with at least one parent, about this very subject.

During a HS season, there’s normally only 30 games, or under the best circumstances around 210 innings. I’m guessing that most state assns are also similar to ours, and put restrictions on the amount of pitching and rest a pitcher can have. Ours is, a P can throw 30 outs per week. Well, its really tough for a coach to find enough innings to appease the appetites of all the pitchers he has, and its even more difficult for a LL coach who only has maybe 20 games at most, and only 120 innings.

In a case like yours, what do you suppose is running through the coach’s mind? Is he trying to cement a place in history for himself? Does your league put up plaques like they do in Yankee Stadium? ;)

In your opinion, do you blame Williamsport, the local league, or the coach?

[scorekeeper]

I actually feel a bit apologetic for using any mph to describe my son or his teammates.

Today is the first time that I've ever told anyone he was clocked at 58. And, I don't think I know anyone here personally, I won't say how old he was then, and I would never (nor would he) say that to anyone in his youth baseball circles.

At 11 it's soooooooooo irrelevant. When I talk to him about velocity, I stress two or three things. One is you've got your fair share of it. Be appreciative and humble. Then we talk about what's going to keep his velocity increasing when other kids his age are topping out and hitting a wall.

When he gets to HS and throws harder than everyone else on his team hands down, then I'll take a little more interest in what the radar gun reads.

I don’t think there’s any reason to be apologetic about it, but then again, as you said, its soooooooooo irrelevant for little kids who don’t even have body hair, it shouldn’t be much more discussed than would good movement or good control.

[shake-n-bake]

In a case like yours, what do you suppose is running through the coach’s mind? Is he trying to cement a place in history for himself? Does your league put up plaques like they do in Yankee Stadium? ;)

In your opinion, do you blame Williamsport, the local league, or the coach?

I don't know really. I like the guy and think he's sincere and wants the kids to learn and have a great time. My son's playing 3rd fiddle to two coaches kids, but I think that a good part of their playing ahead of him is they are 12. Hard to fault the guy for going with returning kids.

I don't blame LL Baseball itself. This is a local league problem. The other thread here really highlights how much good pitching dominates. Going into the draft, everyone knows whose got what for returning pitching. If there's a kid or two that could really help a team that needs it in the draft, then MHO is they should get an option on those kids.

The problem I think lies in the honest assessment of the talent. You've got teams that want to win and will downplay what they've got. And, you've got so many kids whose parents are involved with the league that overestimate their own kids' talent. Therefore, getting the one or two legit pitchers coming up from AAA that will make an impact on a majors season on the right teams is harder than it should be. Also, I think pitching - talking pitching that is CG shutout pitching - isn't viewed realistically. In the other thread, I think a lot of people here were reluctant to just say, "when your team sees one of those kids - you are scre#ed." Because sure kids need to play through, but no matter how you slice it good pitching and catching dominate.

[mudvnine]

The league that we used to play at (a PONY affiliate), set a two inning per game per pitcher pitching rule in the Mustang division (9/10) and a three inning per game per pitcher pitching rule in Bronco (11/12) to make teams utilize more then one pitcher per game (when we were there, PONY didn't have any pitch count rule, only innings per week; not sure what they have now).

The only problem that remained was when two dads with kids who were great pitchers decided to coach together in order to freeze their kids in the draft. That gave the team six innings of great pitching, but should one kid happen to be off for a game, it at least forced them to develop a third and fourth pitcher and spread the innings around a bit more.

It really did level the playing field for the most part and no one team dominated as in years past. Not saying it's perfect or can't be manipulated, but it worked better then letting one pitcher dominate a game, or at least a majority of it. The teams at least know if the held the other team close for three innings while the 70+ guy was in the hill, they at least had a chance when pitchers #2 and 3 entered the game. :gt

EDIT: PONY baseball's Bronco division plays 7 inning games and the Mustang division games are 6 innings . . . thought that important to note, since I see in another thread that LL Majors games are 6 innings.

[skipper5]

At 12 and under, our league (not LL) allows kids to pitch a max. of 3 innings per game, for the past few years. I opposed it. I'm glad I lost. It's a good thing. A pitcher can't dominate.

[scorekeeper]

I don't know really. I like the guy and think he's sincere and wants the kids to learn and have a great time. My son's playing 3rd fiddle to two coaches kids, but I think that a good part of their playing ahead of him is they are 12. Hard to fault the guy for going with returning kids.

I don't blame LL Baseball itself. This is a local league problem. The other thread here really highlights how much good pitching dominates. Going into the draft, everyone knows whose got what for returning pitching. If there's a kid or two that could really help a team that needs it in the draft, then MHO is they should get an option on those kids.

The problem I think lies in the honest assessment of the talent. You've got teams that want to win and will downplay what they've got. And, you've got so many kids whose parents are involved with the league that overestimate their own kids' talent. Therefore, getting the one or two legit pitchers coming up from AAA that will make an impact on a majors season on the right teams is harder than it should be. Also, I think pitching - talking pitching that is CG shutout pitching - isn't viewed realistically. In the other thread, I think a lot of people here were reluctant to just say, "when your team sees one of those kids - you are scre#ed." Because sure kids need to play through, but no matter how you slice it good pitching and catching dominate.

SNB,

I sure would like to see more posts like that one! I think its an honorable thing to look at and speak about problems realistically because that’s the only way real answers can be found.

Remember what you said about returning kids when you get to the HSV level. I’ve never been associated with or heard of a HS team that didn’t have some kind of controversy in that area. Folks like you and I see returning players as great assets, and have no problem recognizing their commitment and sacrifice in past years. But there’s a lot of people who couldn’t care one bit about such things, and only want the best players out there regardless of anything else.

I’m guessing your heart would ache if you saw a kid who’s barely made the team for 3 years, but busted his but trying to represent his team and his school proudly and in such a way as to make other proud, get cut as a senior because there were only so many uniforms, and the coach wanted to bring up a hot shot Fr for experience.

I’m glad to see you don’t blame the organization! You’re correct in that this kind of thing could be handled locally, if only the board and administrators would take the same kind of action the kids would if they ran the league! I’m always shocked when I see how easily kids deal with these kinds of things. They haven been corrupted yet, and will often make decisions for the most honorable of reasons, because it’s the right thing to do.
You’ve also hit the nail on the head about talent assessment. I think if you investigated deeply enough, you’d find that most of the time the teams who have the most success, have coaches or assistants who are great judges of talent 1st, and are great teachers of the game 2nd! Trouble is, its not likely a league will find enough of those people to take over every team.

Finally, you’re spot about being scre#ed when your team has to face one of those studs, and for exactly the reason you stated. Good pitching and catching will dominate.

[shake-n-bake]

SK,

I do find the coaches' commitment to their 12s admirable. This team didn't fare all that well last year. That's a testament to how much they've developed and improved, as well as the coaching (and the number of returning players). My son understands and accepts this. That's one of those non-playing things that makes a dad proud.

The silver lining in it is he's hungry and that'll do a lot for making him a better player. I see him hustling, playing smart, backing up plays, and working harder on defense and at the plate to help his team. In the past he's done this, but with less intensity. Used to be, he'd throw his 6 innings every other game and feel like he'd done his job. So, there's good in this situation. And, thankfully he's mature enough to see it and I'm not a whiny parent that's going to give these guys that are good coaches a hard time even when I don't always agree with them.

Still, in a perfect world there could be more parity and still keep it sufficiently competitive for what it is. And, yes, you're right on. I hear these kids talk all the time about what should have happened to make that a reality.

We continue to work on his pitching. I keep the coaches up to speed on when and how much he's throwing and don't let it interfere with his game schedule so he's always rested and available. I guess all he can do is make the most of his opportunities when he does get them.

[scorekeeper]

SNB,

It sounds to me that you guys are having a pretty good experience, and that’s what it’s really all about.

You sound a great deal like me. I wanted my kid to have a great experience, but I wanted the same thing for all the kids. Sometimes its difficult to think that way because reality doesn’t always happen like that.

[Rajun Cajun]

Still the question, how are these kids getting evaluated in the velocity? Radar? Stopwatch? Guess?

Radar guns are pretty common now. You can get a great one for about 150 bones. If you ever check out Ron Willforth's Texas Baseball Ranch you will notice he measures everything with a quality radar gun.

More kids are throwing harder because they are being developed the right way at a younger age. I think there is better coaching today, and far more science on the human body and the kinetic links that make it perform more efficiently. Certainly increased competiton drives this. I think Coach Willforth's son Garret threw 56 MPH at age 9.

[scorekeeper]

…Certainly increased competiton drives this….

I wuz noddin’ my head in agreement until I real read that. But, before I comment, you have to explain what increased competiton means.

[Ursa Major]

You’ve also hit the nail on the head about talent assessment. I think if you investigated deeply enough, you’d find that most of the time the teams who have the most success, have coaches or assistants who are great judges of talent 1st, and are great teachers of the game 2nd! Trouble is, its not likely a league will find enough of those people to take over every team.SK, I agree, with the one exception noted by MudVNine: "The only problem that remained was when two dads with kids who were great pitchers decided to coach together in order to freeze their kids in the draft. That gave the team six innings of great pitching. . ." A league can definitely control who the coaches are, and the manipulation of team by coach selection and using the "Dads get to coach their kids rule" to manipulate rosters. I've seen Dads who never show up for practices being officially designated coaches because their kids are studs. The league should stop this shenanigan.

[rkbenn]

I guess it's because the kids mature earlier and get bigger.

you never know how these kids are mature. we have a 12 that is 6'1" 250lbs, but throws about 50mph. my son is 10 5'4" and 60lbs (jumped on a scale last week) and throws 50. which has more upside? you never know what you are going to get then the testo increases.

[rkbenn]

The league that we used to play at (a PONY affiliate), set a two inning per game per pitcher pitching rule in the Mustang division (9/10) and a three inning per game per pitcher pitching rule in Bronco (11/12) to make teams utilize more then one pitcher per game (when we were there, PONY didn't have any pitch count rule, only innings per week; not sure what they have now).

The only problem that remained was when two dads with kids who were great pitchers decided to coach together in order to freeze their kids in the draft. That gave the team six innings of great pitching, but should one kid happen to be off for a game, it at least forced them to develop a third and fourth pitcher and spread the innings around a bit more.

It really did level the playing field for the most part and no one team dominated as in years past. Not saying it's perfect or can't be manipulated, but it worked better then letting one pitcher dominate a game, or at least a majority of it. The teams at least know if the held the other team close for three innings while the 70+ guy was in the hill, they at least had a chance when pitchers #2 and 3 entered the game. :gt

EDIT: PONY baseball's Bronco division plays 7 inning games and the Mustang division games are 6 innings . . . thought that important to note, since I see in another thread that LL Majors games are 6 innings.

Very well said...

[rkbenn]

you never know how these kids are mature. we have a 12 that is 6'1" 250lbs, but throws about 50mph. my son is 10 5'4" and 60lbs (jumped on a scale last week) and throws 50. which has more upside? you never know what you are going to get then the testo increases.

Correction he's 4'9" not 5'4"

[AgentX]

We had the State tourney here last year.

Every team had several pitchers who could throw 70. But they weren't always the most effective ones.

Every team also had a bunch of kids who could put the ball out. They didn't do it all the time.

There was one team in particular who had several large players, including one who was at least 6' tall. With a baby mustache. League age 12. On the Little League field they looked ridiculous.

During the Home Run Derby, one of the big kids hit a ball that cleared the 225' centerfield fence by at least 100'. He only hit 2.

They did well, but lost to the most balanced team. And that team finished in the Williamsport semis.

I think that size and strength are terrific assets, but the best teams are inevitably the ones that have the most uniformity of talent.

[Drill]

The only thing I want to know about a pitcher is if he has a fastball can he locate it. Next has he developed a good change up pitch. Than we will talk about other pitches.

Pitching is about location and keeping the batter off balance.


IMHO,

drill