Blown away at the Plate!

[rkbenn]

We are the 2nd place team in our league (Majors) and we hit the ball well against average to above average pitching. We are having problems against the 4 hard throwers we have in our league....2 of which are on the first place team that is undefeated with all 10 run rule defeats. We'd have a chance if we could hit these kids, throwing 70+. They pitch the whole damn game. I've told the kids to move back in the batters box, lighter bat, and being aggressive. What else?

[mightylakers]

What else?

Take one for the team

[beisbolcrazy22]

We are the 2nd place team in our league (Majors) and we hit the ball well against average to above average pitching. We are having problems against the 4 hard throwers we have in our league....2 of which are on the first place team that is undefeated with all 10 run rule defeats. We'd have a chance if we could hit these kids, throwing 70+. They pitch the whole damn game. I've told the kids to move back in the batters box, lighter bat, and being aggressive. What else?

Maybe bunt. Get a guy on base and maybe they dont pitch well from the stretch.

[Ursa Major]

Take one for the teamOh, that's frickin' helpful, numbnuts.

Be positive. Like all great challenges in life, hard throwers are an "opportunity". The ball will go farther when you hit it. It encourages you to use your best technique.

Lighter bats help. No stride swings may help reduce slop. Take their stride earlier, if they insist on striding; what you lose by starting your hips early is almost compensated for by additional power that the pitch itself helps generate.

Usually, hard throwing LL'ers throw the ball straight as a string. Encourage e'm to read the ball out of the pitcher's hand, start early, and watch the ball go back in the direction it came from.

[dominik]

You can have them choke up on the bat a little.

[Oilcanbland]

First of all, don't assume that the next game your guys might not be able to rack up some hits. You never know.

But if you are still having trouble and nobody can catch up to him, I would agree that bunting may be an option. Use your guys with speed to put the ball in play. Force the defense to make plays. Above all else, PUT THE BALL IN PLAY.

[AgentX]

Maybe bunt.
I'm surprised this isn't more obvious to teams when they are facing dominant heat.

Our LL 12yo Allstar team faced some very strong pitching last year, including some 70+mph stuff. Everybody whiffed. NOBODY was told to bunt. They lost every game by 10-run rule.

When our Majors team faces our league's strongest pitchers, I try to work on our players' approach to the plate. The best pitchers in the league don't tend to throw over the middle of the plate much, so a lot of their pitches are borderline. When they don't get the calls, they tend to get frustrated, and throw harder with less control. If you can get one of these guys frustrated, you can draw a few walks and get some baserunners.

Also, bear in mind that the team behind a dominant pitcher is probably bored as hell. They aren't expecting the ball, and putting the ball in play is more likely to yield a hit.

Finally, if you throw to your team in the cages, don't throw from more than 25-30 feet. Point out to your team that if they can hit your 50mph fastball at 25 feet, then they can catch up to ANYTHING the league's best 12yo can hurl.

[rbgrubbs]

Through my experience...it is in their heads. as we all know "90% of hitting is mental, the other half physical".....

Rachet up the BP speed a couple days before the game.....and throw in some soft toss to work on qick hands.....

AND BUNT

[scorekeeper]

…Finally, if you throw to your team in the cages, don't throw from more than 25-30 feet. Point out to your team that if they can hit your 50mph fastball at 25 feet, then they can catch up to ANYTHING the league's best 12yo can hurl.

I think that’s on the right track, but I used to go even further than that. I’d set up an L-screen about 10’ in front of the plate, sit on a bucket, then get at least 5 balls in my glove and 1 in my hand. I’d let the hitter get as set as he wanted, then I’d throw all 6 balls, giving the hitter only enough time to get set before throwing another. And I’m not talking sot toss. I’d throw the ball hard enough so as to get as little arc as possible. I’d go through a big bucket, usually 50-60 balls, like that, reloading and throwing so as to get through the bucket as quickly as possible.

It could be that my reasoning is whacky here, but I do know that the hitters who worked like that for a couple of weeks, could get their bat on any fastball they saw. Not hit it out of the park, but they had the timing and hand speed to make contact reasonably often.

My thinking was, I was trying to condition their minds to stop thinking about what they were doing, and just react to what they saw. To me, too many players get all ratcheted up about some kind of pre-pitch ceremony in the box, and that’s where the problems begin. They need to focus on the ball, not how their feet are placed or how their helmet’s tilted. They also don’t need to be thinking how overpowered they are and how hard its going to be to hit that pitcher, but rather how this is really no big deal because they’ve done it successfully so many times.

Its really surprising to see how players progress at that drill. Usually, at first all they can do is whine and complain, wanting me to move back. Then, when they can’t hit but maybe 10 balls per bucket, they really get to carping. But, like all similar things, if they persist, they’ll get the hang of it, eventually getting to the point where they’ll be able to adjust to pitches in different parts of the strike zone, and even not swing at marginal pitches. A few of the boys could get through an entire bucket without swinging and missing even once, and after a few weeks, they were playing home run derby that way.

To me, the thing that’s great is, there are far fewer wasted BP pitches and the pitcher really can work to specific spots. Also, it often seemed like the more tired the kids got, swinging as hard as you can 25-30 times in a short time can be tiring, the cut down the swing and concentrated on just making contact, and that’s when the real progress began.

Like I said, it may be that my thoughts are whacky, and I just got lucky with the kids I worked with. But although they were still pretty much overpowered in games by extremely hard throwers, they managed to get a fair share of hits and remained competitive. For sure they were a lot more confident.

[DukeK]

I would venture to guess that most of your kids still have problems with the typical draggy youth baseball swing - they need to simplify their swing and get to the ball quicker.

I haven't gone through all your old posts but I do see you've started several like the "Path of the Hands" thread so I know you're knowledgable on the subject.

Along with what the others have posted I would work on getting the kids to realize they can get to the ball much quicker if the bat head and hands start in the proper place and take the proper path.

Recent history shows me:

1) I videotaped 3 of my son's 11 YO friends (kids I coach in soccer and all great athletes) and all of them exhibit signs of a typical youth baseball swing- similar to the kid posted recently here: http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89543
You can see very clearly from the last gif I posted in that thread how much quicker the bat gets to the ball with proper hand path/bat plane (both videos start exactly when the hands are launched):
http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/lk2500/April15T1.gif


2) My older son's team (13-14 yo) recently lost games 14-4 and 5-2 against teams with decent velocity/accurate pitching. The 3 games since we've won by a combined 58-4 against slower/inaccurate pitching. In a nutshell the kids are all good athletes with typical youth baseball swings (that I'm working to fix) - these swings work well against slower pitching but fail against higher velocity pitching. I'm hoping to see some better pitching this next week to see if my theory holds true - or if those 2 losses were just flukes.

[skipper5]

How do you hit overpowering pitching? Mostly, you don't, because...it's overpowering.

Normal LL 12 yr olds won't string run-scoring bunches of hits together against 6 innings of 70 mph-plus fastballs from 42 ft. away at release.

You're not going to transform their normal draggy/loopy LL swings into picture-perfect MLB-style swings. It's a big enough challenge when you start in November with a single motivated student, instead of a whole LL team in mid-season.

Have your batters choke up and punch the ball. Sometimes, kids refuse to make that adjustment, preferring instead to go down in a full-swinging blaze of glory. Hope for some bases-on-balls and wild pitches.

A better question is why did your league's draft process place two 70 mph-plus pitchers on the same team? If both your and their team had one, you'd have the makings of a riveting 2-1 pitching duel, instead of a mercy-rule game.

[shake-n-bake]

Bunting and shortening up the swing might get your team a few baserunners. Whether or not that'll translate into enough runs to get a win is very iffy. What that might do along with your hitters not giving the pitcher who doesn't need the help any gifts by swinging at bad pitches is get into his pitch count. If you can hold on long enough and your pitching and defense holds up, maybe you can get to their reliever and make some noise with the bats then.

My son throws 70, doesn't walk anyone, has nasty breaking stuff, can locate, etc. and he's the #3 pitcher on his majors team. I told his coach that he must be living right having so much pitching. Actually it's not funny. He and the two kids ahead of him are virtually carbon copies of each other. They happen to be 12 though. I don't blame the coach for giving them more time, but on any other team in the league my son would see a lot more time on the mound. I jokingly told him not to draft my kid last fall because they already had two good returning pitchers. I wish he'd have took it seriously now.

I don't see them losing much (undefeated / 0.00 ERA thus far) this year. When opponents get into the starter's pitch count (the control has been such that noone has had to leave a game because of going past their pitch count), they'll see another kid with the same or better stuff. And, the #4 and #5 pitchers (if they ever see any time) are above league average too.

[skipper5]

"My son throws 70, doesn't walk anyone, has nasty breaking stuff, can locate, etc. and he's the #3 pitcher on his majors team."

I'm clearly out of touch with the level of baseball being played in other parts of the the country. Your LL rec team has an impressive pitching staff. The majors div. all-star team must be lights out.

Your son would compete for being the no. 1 pitcher on my town's 14u Babe Ruth all-star team, which is a good one.

[shake-n-bake]

We do not have anything other than LL available. My son and the 2 12's ahead of him (or at least that's been the case thus far) would or could play travel or select ball if it was in our area.

[rkbenn]

Bunting and shortening up the swing might get your team a few baserunners. Whether or not that'll translate into enough runs to get a win is very iffy. What that might do along with your hitters not giving the pitcher who doesn't need the help any gifts by swinging at bad pitches is get into his pitch count. If you can hold on long enough and your pitching and defense holds up, maybe you can get to their reliever and make some noise with the bats then.

My son throws 70, doesn't walk anyone, has nasty breaking stuff, can locate, etc. and he's the #3 pitcher on his majors team. I told his coach that he must be living right having so much pitching. Actually it's not funny. He and the two kids ahead of him are virtually carbon copies of each other. They happen to be 12 though. I don't blame the coach for giving them more time, but on any other team in the league my son would see a lot more time on the mound. I jokingly told him not to draft my kid last fall because they already had two good returning pitchers. I wish he'd have took it seriously now.

I don't see them losing much (undefeated / 0.00 ERA thus far) this year. When opponents get into the starter's pitch count (the control has been such that noone has had to leave a game because of going past their pitch count), they'll see another kid with the same or better stuff. And, the #4 and #5 pitchers (if they ever see any time) are above league average too.

this is what i don't like about LL (rec). the two most dominate pitchers are on one team and never have too leave the game going all 6. i'd rather see innings pitched instead pitch count. it's no fun to watch one kid blow away, kid after kid after kid. the should just clear the field and have that one pitcher on the mound.

[rkbenn]

I would venture to guess that most of your kids still have problems with the typical draggy youth baseball swing - they need to simplify their swing and get to the ball quicker.

I haven't gone through all your old posts but I do see you've started several like the "Path of the Hands" thread so I know you're knowledgable on the subject.

Along with what the others have posted I would work on getting the kids to realize they can get to the ball much quicker if the bat head and hands start in the proper place and take the proper path.

Recent history shows me:

1) I videotaped 3 of my son's 11 YO friends (kids I coach in soccer and all great athletes) and all of them exhibit signs of a typical youth baseball swing- similar to the kid posted recently here: http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89543
You can see very clearly from the last gif I posted in that thread how much quicker the bat gets to the ball with proper hand path/bat plane (both videos start exactly when the hands are launched):
http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/lk2500/April15T1.gif


2) My older son's team (13-14 yo) recently lost games 14-4 and 5-2 against teams with decent velocity/accurate pitching. The 3 games since we've won by a combined 58-4 against slower/inaccurate pitching. In a nutshell the kids are all good athletes with typical youth baseball swings (that I'm working to fix) - these swings work well against slower pitching but fail against higher velocity pitching. I'm hoping to see some better pitching this next week to see if my theory holds true - or if those 2 losses were just flukes.

We got about 4 kids with loopy swings, dropping the barrel behind and swinging it around.

When I see a kid striding when the ball is clearly out of the hand, and when that happens, it's over. Even my son, good contact hitter...blown away!

I've watched other kids hit in AllStars against the 70+ kids and I see them swing at everything, really guessing, but smashing the ball.

[scorekeeper]

this is what i don't like about LL (rec). the two most dominate pitchers are on one team and never have too leave the game going all 6. i'd rather see innings pitched instead pitch count. it's no fun to watch one kid blow away, kid after kid after kid. the should just clear the field and have that one pitcher on the mound.

Let’s get a couple things straight.

The 2 most dominant pitchers being on 1 team isn’t Williamsport’s fault! That’s something completely controlled at the local level. Then there’s this possibility. What do you do if a coach gets 2 or 3 pitchers who are only OK, but then works with them and they turn into real beasts? What do you do then, in the middle of the season, do you force that team to trade until they only have 1 left on the team?

As for a pitcher being able to go all 6, how soon we forget! From the 1996 LL Inc rule book. LL Regulations – VI(b). … A player may pitch in a maximum of 6 innings in a calendar week, Sunday through Saturday. …

Under that rule, not only could a dominating pitcher throw an entire game, if the coach wanted to, he could let the kid throw 200 pitches because there were no pitch count restrictions! I believe that’s still the case in PONY, Dixie, and some other organizations who don’t use pitch counts restrictions.

However, I agree with you 100% that its no fun to watch one kid blow away player after player. But the game isn’t supposed to be for us folks watching. In that light, I’ll go a bit farther and say with confidence that its no fun for the others players on the team to watch the P and C playing catch. Not only is it boring, they don’t get the chance to learn the game by playing and executing. And its certainly no fun for the opposing team. Not only are they bored, they don’t learn a whole lot about hitting and running the bases.

So, all in all, what happens when dominating pitchers take the hill in a rec environment, it does exactly opposite of what should be happening. The only 2 players who learn anything positive are the P and the C.

This is something that could easily be avoided if kids weren’t allowed to pitch competitively until they reached the big field, or at least a bigger field. In the rec environment, let ‘em learn the basics and go out and have some fun on the little field. They’ll be playing for blood soon enough, or if Mummy and Daddy really feel they have to do that sooner, there’ll always be select/travel/tournament ball for them to earn that college scholarship or MLB contract.

[skipper5]

You guys need to get real as you plot and plan how LL rec hitters should deal with 70 mph fastballs.

In terms of reaction time, 70 mph from 46 ft. is equivalent to 91 mph from 60 ft.
Admittedly, the 91 mph pitch is disproportionately more difficult to pick up with the eye (it looks like a blur), and its dwell time in the hitting zone makes it disproportionately difficult to time the swing. But still, we're talking about very young (12 yr old) LL rec hitters.

A while back, TG Coach wrote--and my observations agree with this--" mid 80's will overwhelm six of the nine hitters in a typical high school lineup. Ten to twelve K's and a handful of dribblers makes for solid defense."

In other words, typical HS hitters--the cream of the crop graduates of LL--can't deal with the LL equivalent of 65 mph pitching.

Get real, guys. There are parents and coaches who are new to the game and taking this thread as gospel.
Or, maybe, your radar guns are mis-calibrated?

[Ursa Major]

Skipper, assuming that you're right, what's the answer -- forfeiting every game? Yeah, maybe there's not much that can be done, but you need to send the kids out there and come up with some strategy that gives 'em a chance, however small that chance may be.

I feel sorry for the other kids on this team -- they apparently have no chance of pitching and little chance of fielding a batted ball. And, pitching only your three 12-year old studs (okay, maybe giving some time to nos. 4 and 5), doesn't develop the team (or, if there's a re-draft) the league for the following year.

One of my complaints about LL baseball is that -- because there are so many rules to govern competitiveness -- the maximum becomes the minimum. In other words, because a kid can't go over 85 pitches, every coach is justified in allowing each stud to go that far. A strong league with 'common sense' rather than rules would just say to the manager -- give other kids some time. And, it probably ould not have allowed the team to stockpile the top three arms in the league.

[skipper5]

"Skipper, assuming that you're right, what's the answer -- forfeiting every game? Yeah, maybe there's not much that can be done, but you need to send the kids out there and come up with some strategy that gives 'em a chance, however small that chance may be."

One of the posts, for example, suggested bunting. Expecting 12 yr old rec players to bunt 70 mph is not realistic.

If the batters were willing and able to cut down on their swings--choke and poke--they'd be more effective, but I haven't found that kids are willing and able to do this. Ty Cobb is dead.

[scorekeeper]

Skipper, assuming that you're right, what's the answer -- forfeiting every game? Yeah, maybe there's not much that can be done, but you need to send the kids out there and come up with some strategy that gives 'em a chance, however small that chance may be.

I feel sorry for the other kids on this team -- they apparently have no chance of pitching and little chance of fielding a batted ball. And, pitching only your three 12-year old studs (okay, maybe giving some time to nos. 4 and 5), doesn't develop the team (or, if there's a re-draft) the league for the following year.

Ursa,

You’re correct. As long as the games have to be played, the players gotta go out there and play. But something that’s always bothered me is the number of kids who flat give up on baseball at younger and younger ages, ostensibly because the game isn’t a lot of fun due to a low volume of ACTION.

While many believe that having a 13YO throwing lasers from 46’ and totally overwhelming all but the very best of hitters is great sport, I think its more like shooting fish in a barrel. We’re talking rec ball here, not something where kids pay heaps of money to try out, and only the very best are kept on the team. Even those teams are gonna be pretty much toasted facing 70MPH from 46’, but that’s exactly what they pay their $$$$ for!

Rec ball is a place that should teach kids to love the game, not hate it or be bored by it. That way there will be a place where players who haven’t matured as rapidly or had yet had access to great instruction, to play. What that does is make the game available to more players. To me its pretty stupid that the culling process begins at 9YO.

One of my complaints about LL baseball is that -- because there are so many rules to govern competitiveness -- the maximum becomes the minimum. In other words, because a kid can't go over 85 pitches, every coach is justified in allowing each stud to go that far. A strong league with 'common sense' rather than rules would just say to the manager -- give other kids some time. And, it probably ould not have allowed the team to stockpile the top three arms in the league.

Is it really Williamsport rules that stifle common sense, or is it something at the local levels? I’d venture a guess that the last thing the people at Williamsport want, is to see kids who aren’t the “best” get shoved to the back of the queue, which is why they force the locals into MPR and pitch counts. I think they know darned well that if they didn’t do something to control what was being done, most locals run roughshod over the players attempting to create a MLB for kiddies.

I just hate seeing LL Inc get blamed for this crap! What you said about a strong league isn’t stopped right now. I’ve heard of some leagues that do exactly what you said, and I’m guessing that if I’ve heard of a few and I only know about maybe 15-20 leagues, there’s a lot of others out there who manage to get it right too, so why don’t all of them act in such a manner?

[rkbenn]

Let’s get a couple things straight.

The 2 most dominant pitchers being on 1 team isn’t Williamsport’s fault! That’s something completely controlled at the local level. Then there’s this possibility. What do you do if a coach gets 2 or 3 pitchers who are only OK, but then works with them and they turn into real beasts? What do you do then, in the middle of the season, do you force that team to trade until they only have 1 left on the team?

As for a pitcher being able to go all 6, how soon we forget! From the 1996 LL Inc rule book. LL Regulations – VI(b). … A player may pitch in a maximum of 6 innings in a calendar week, Sunday through Saturday. …

Under that rule, not only could a dominating pitcher throw an entire game, if the coach wanted to, he could let the kid throw 200 pitches because there were no pitch count restrictions! I believe that’s still the case in PONY, Dixie, and some other organizations who don’t use pitch counts restrictions.

However, I agree with you 100% that its no fun to watch one kid blow away player after player. But the game isn’t supposed to be for us folks watching. In that light, I’ll go a bit farther and say with confidence that its no fun for the others players on the team to watch the P and C playing catch. Not only is it boring, they don’t get the chance to learn the game by playing and executing. And its certainly no fun for the opposing team. Not only are they bored, they don’t learn a whole lot about hitting and running the bases.

So, all in all, what happens when dominating pitchers take the hill in a rec environment, it does exactly opposite of what should be happening. The only 2 players who learn anything positive are the P and the C.

This is something that could easily be avoided if kids weren’t allowed to pitch competitively until they reached the big field, or at least a bigger field. In the rec environment, let ‘em learn the basics and go out and have some fun on the little field. They’ll be playing for blood soon enough, or if Mummy and Daddy really feel they have to do that sooner, there’ll always be select/travel/tournament ball for them to earn that college scholarship or MLB contract.

no, lets get this straight. I am blaming Williamsport and it is their fault! they do have some control of what goes on out there. there is more than winning a game that is concerning to me. kids don't learn crap standing there. other kids are not being developed as pitchers. kids throwing too many pitches. the kids throwing 70+ usually play rec, travel and for their school in Jr high. the kids throwing 70+ don't learn crap playing catch with their catcher. the best team usually DOES NOT win these games. if you switched our two best for the #1 team two best pitchers, we would be undefeated.

i feel there should be a inning and pitch count, ie 50 pitches or 3 inning, whatever comes first. If you pitch that week, you can't pitch till the next week. Instead of having to develop 4, you'll have to do 6 or 7. then we can see which team is the best team.

[scorekeeper]

no, lets get this straight. I am blaming Williamsport and it is their fault! they do have some control of what goes on out there. there is more than winning a game that is concerning to me. kids don't learn crap standing there. other kids are not being developed as pitchers. kids throwing too many pitches. the kids throwing 70+ usually play rec, travel and for their school in Jr high. the kids throwing 70+ don't learn crap playing catch with their catcher. the best team usually DOES NOT win these games. if you switched our two best for the #1 team two best pitchers, we would be undefeated.

i feel there should be a inning and pitch count, ie 50 pitches or 3 inning, whatever comes first. If you pitch that week, you can't pitch till the next week. Instead of having to develop 4, you'll have to do 6 or 7. then we can see which team is the best team.

rk, if you’ve read much of what I’ve said on the topic of pitchers over the last decade or so, you’ve seen that I’m someone who keeps trying to tell people that every kid on a LL Inc team is eligible to pitch, and every one of them that wants to try, should be given the rock! But, I don’t think that’s something that should be carved in stone by Williamsport!

I want them to give general guidelines, which they do, then I want them to get the H-E-Double Hockeysticks out of the way! Districts can and often do exercise their power to impose certain rules, so do individual leagues, and for sure individual teams have a lot of room for maneuvering on their own.

Maybe jbooth or someone of equal knowledge about the rules can say for certain, but I’m guessing that a District can put in exactly the rule you’d like to see. I can’t say with absolute certainty, but I’m almost positive a league can do it, and if not, I am positive team manager/head coach can.

But I really don’t want to see Williamsport forcing that rule on everyone, because it would take away a heck of a lot of local autonomy. LL Inc has made a pretty good run at protecting the kids, but the rest of it is really none of their business, any more than it is for them to stick their noses into how AS teams are picked, or the details of how leagues form teams.

What would be great, is if they could somehow mandate that local administrators and boards had some common sense, then used it!

[AgentX]

The big problem with high heat is that it undoes the biggest thing I want to teach able hitters at that age: patience.

SO MANY of the 9-12yo hitters I've dealt with have NO IDEA how quick they really are with their swings. And it's really hard to teach, because it's confidence-based. You only get there through experience.

But when you can get them to stay back and wait on the pitch, triggering at the last possible second, then you see them break through as hitters. I don't have any sure-fire method for doing this. All hitters are different. But the ones who learn to turn on inside and wait on outside pitches quickly develop the self confidence they need to hit 70mph pitching.

A lot of kids this age trigger early and slow their swing so that it spends more time in the contact zone. But they don't believe they do it, and it's hard to show them that they do.

I've found that pitching from a minimal distance and throwing inside will give you a great opportunity to praise a hitter for their quickness. When you can show a hitter where the ball was when they hit it, they start to realize how quickly they can get the bat around. From there, you just need to get them to experiment. I try to remind players that cage work is practice, and there are no penalties for swinging behind a pitch.

I think that the only way you can teach kids to catch up to high heat is by showing them how deep they can let a ball get and still put it in play.

[KevinOK]

Why not get shorter and maybe even lighter bats to begin with but more importantly get a pitching machine that throws that speed and give your kids a heavy dose. At first their timing will be off but after enough reps they will catch up. Once they get used to hitting pitches this speed the scare goes away. To add some more confidence have a quick team BP about 2-3 hours before the game with this team and have them take about 5-10 hits a piece off the machine. Come game time your kids should be ready.

A 1-2 inch shorter bat can make a big difference given similar reaction time.

[Ursa Major]

Is it really Williamsport rules that stifle common sense, or is it something at the local levels? I’d venture a guess that the last thing the people at Williamsport want, is to see kids who aren’t the “best” get shoved to the back of the queue, which is why they force the locals into MPR and pitch counts. I think they know darned well that if they didn’t do something to control what was being done, most locals run roughshod over the players attempting to create a MLB for kiddies.

I just hate seeing LL Inc get blamed for this crap! What you said about a strong league isn’t stopped right now. I’ve heard of some leagues that do exactly what you said, and I’m guessing that if I’ve heard of a few and I only know about maybe 15-20 leagues, there’s a lot of others out there who manage to get it right too, so why don’t all of them act in such a manner?SK, I am not blaming Williamsport. It's not a matter of blame, but rather Dads (like that b-hole in Illinois a couple of years back) who set it in their head that they're going to get a team to the LLWS and manipulate a whole league and the kids in it to achieve their ego-centric goals. It's really that having the LLWS all over ABC and ESPN makes it so inviting a target that coaches focus on it -- and too many leagues feel their hands are tied by the rules -- that these dads obsess about success to the exclusion of the ability of lesser players to enjoy the game. Hey, I'm as guilty as anyone because I enjoy watching the LLWS.

But, you don't need to have your top pitchers going 80 pitches every game for which they're eligible to get your squad to Cooperstown. Geez, if you have an 8 run lead and a good third pitcher who wants some mound time, shut down the stud and put the 'good' pitcher out there. And if he gets lit up and you lose a game or two, big effin' deal!

I do blame Williamsport for maintaining the 46-foot pitching distance and the 60-foot bases even after the age cutoff got moved back three months. At least go back to 48 (if not 50) feet.

[rkbenn]

rk, if you’ve read much of what I’ve said on the topic of pitchers over the last decade or so, you’ve seen that I’m someone who keeps trying to tell people that every kid on a LL Inc team is eligible to pitch, and every one of them that wants to try, should be given the rock! But, I don’t think that’s something that should be carved in stone by Williamsport!

I want them to give general guidelines, which they do, then I want them to get the H-E-Double Hockeysticks out of the way! Districts can and often do exercise their power to impose certain rules, so do individual leagues, and for sure individual teams have a lot of room for maneuvering on their own.

Maybe jbooth or someone of equal knowledge about the rules can say for certain, but I’m guessing that a District can put in exactly the rule you’d like to see. I can’t say with absolute certainty, but I’m almost positive a league can do it, and if not, I am positive team manager/head coach can.

But I really don’t want to see Williamsport forcing that rule on everyone, because it would take away a heck of a lot of local autonomy. LL Inc has made a pretty good run at protecting the kids, but the rest of it is really none of their business, any more than it is for them to stick their noses into how AS teams are picked, or the details of how leagues form teams.

What would be great, is if they could somehow mandate that local administrators and boards had some common sense, then used it!

Yes, local can put together rules like the one i described, but why would you do it when it's not followed in other leagues, making it equal for all? Only Williamsport can dictate this. That's why they need to stick their nose in it. That's why they did the pitch count, because if you left it up to many local idiot organizations they wouldn't have.

[bob_r]

I think the problem that 12 year olds have with fast pitching is that their swing is a fast blend of stride, load and launch. If the load and stride are early then wait on the launch their odds go up.

[scorekeeper]

… I do blame Williamsport for maintaining the 46-foot pitching distance and the 60-foot bases even after the age cutoff got moved back three months. At least go back to 48 (if not 50) feet.

I’m a big fan of numbers. To me, the 46/60 field is the perfect size for 90% of the 12YO league age players in LL Inc. I’ll admit that it is a tad on the small side for some of the great players and knuckle draggers we’re seein’ now-a-days, but to me, making the filed bigger for 10% doesn’t help the 90%.

Because of size, many leagues still have 9YOs playing in the Majors. Why should a 9YO be forced to play on a 54/80? Don’t get me wrong. I wouldn’t be bothered if every baseball game, including coach pitch were played on a 60/90! But when you start using all these hybrid sized fields to try to optimize player ability to the venue, its nothing but a failing effort.

Now if field size were dependent on body type, that would be a different story. But then someone would bitch because their 9YO, 4’6”/50# little Babe Ruth who had the ability to play on a bigger field would be stuck on the little one.

I’m not familiar with LL Inc rules anymore. Can a 13YO who’s a league age 12 play in the Jr program?

[scorekeeper]

Yes, local can put together rules like the one i described, but why would you do it when it's not followed in other leagues, making it equal for all? Only Williamsport can dictate this. That's why they need to stick their nose in it. That's why they did the pitch count, because if you left it up to many local idiot organizations they wouldn't have.

I don’t understand why if you’re in say NY, you’d care what I do during the regular season out in Az. The only time it matters nationally is once the teams get out of districts during the end of year tournament, and by then, since you’ve had the ability to choose the best players to compete, I don’t see it as making much difference.

[rkbenn]

I don’t understand why if you’re in say NY, you’d care what I do during the regular season out in Az. The only time it matters nationally is once the teams get out of districts during the end of year tournament, and by then, since you’ve had the ability to choose the best players to compete, I don’t see it as making much difference.

I thought I made it pretty clear. Ursa was talking about the issues. Our president for LL is the head coach for our #1 team, with phantom coaches, and rules that help them win in league and make them the coach for districts and beyond. I know I'm not the only one that sees this.

[AgentX]

I thought I made it pretty clear. Ursa was talking about the issues. Our president for LL is the head coach for our #1 team, with phantom coaches, and rules that help them win in league and make them the coach for districts and beyond. I know I'm not the only one that sees this.

This is where LL's bureaucratic structure can work for you. Send a letter to your District Admin. Copy to Williamsport. Collect parent signatures. You don't have to put up with it.

IME, LL is VERY mindful of it's public image, and this is precisely the kind of thing that they crack down upon.

[scorekeeper]

I thought I made it pretty clear. Ursa was talking about the issues. Our president for LL is the head coach for our #1 team, with phantom coaches, and rules that help them win in league and make them the coach for districts and beyond. I know I'm not the only one that sees this.

I’m sorry if I seem dense, but remember that I’m 10 years away from LL Inc.

Here’s how I’m interpreting what you wrote. Please correct me if I’m wrong because otherwise I’ll be operating under incorrect information.

The president of the board for your LL Inc league is a head coach for the league’s best team. If that’s the case, LL Inc must’ve changed a lot in those 10 years I’ve been away, because as I remember, and as I verified in the ’96 rule book, the president of a league can’t manage, coach, or umpire in that league.

If what you mean is, he isn’t really the manager on paper, but has others who do that in name only, it would seem to me that all you need to do is write a letter to your district, or to Williamsport to have them investigate. They may not be able to do a lot about it, but the message should get through to this person that what he’s doing isn’t right.

Maybe I’m just a pie in the sky kinda guy, but in the few official communications I had with LL Inc over the years, I found them to be very much interested in rooting out the kind of thing you’re alleging are happening because its just flat out wrong.

Take a look at http://www.littleleague.org/Learn_More/forms.htm You might find something there that will assist you in clearing up your problem.

Good Luck!

[rkbenn]

I think the problem that 12 year olds have with fast pitching is that their swing is a fast blend of stride, load and launch. If the load and stride are early then wait on the launch their odds go up.

Yes and the 90+ mph equivilent at 60 feet. That might contribute to it.

[rkbenn]

I’m sorry if I seem dense, but remember that I’m 10 years away from LL Inc.

Here’s how I’m interpreting what you wrote. Please correct me if I’m wrong because otherwise I’ll be operating under incorrect information.

The president of the board for your LL Inc league is a head coach for the league’s best team. If that’s the case, LL Inc must’ve changed a lot in those 10 years I’ve been away, because as I remember, and as I verified in the ’96 rule book, the president of a league can’t manage, coach, or umpire in that league.

If what you mean is, he isn’t really the manager on paper, but has others who do that in name only, it would seem to me that all you need to do is write a letter to your district, or to Williamsport to have them investigate. They may not be able to do a lot about it, but the message should get through to this person that what he’s doing isn’t right.

Maybe I’m just a pie in the sky kinda guy, but in the few official communications I had with LL Inc over the years, I found them to be very much interested in rooting out the kind of thing you’re alleging are happening because its just flat out wrong.

Take a look at http://www.littleleague.org/Learn_More/forms.htm You might find something there that will assist you in clearing up your problem.

Good Luck!
SK,

I'm not sure what the rule is, but it's happening here. Even if that was against the rules, he'd get someone else to be his cronie (sp). They are blowing that team up next year anyways.

I just would like to see the best overall team win, be it in local, district, regionals, ect. If we are developing more pitchers, arms will be saved, there will be better competition, and the game will be a lot more fun.

In the MLB, no one throws complete games anymore, and there is usually a big drop off from starter to bullpen pitchers. Why should a LL pitch a complete game? Let's see if the team can play defense? Let's see if the coach can improve and develope players.

[Ursa Major]

I’m a big fan of numbers. To me, the 46/60 field is the perfect size for 90% of the 12YO league age players in LL Inc. I’ll admit that it is a tad on the small side for some of the great players and knuckle draggers we’re seein’ now-a-days, but to me, making the filed bigger for 10% doesn’t help the 90%.

Because of size, many leagues still have 9YOs playing in the Majors. Why should a 9YO be forced to play on a 54/80? Don’t get me wrong. I wouldn’t be bothered if every baseball game, including coach pitch were played on a 60/90! But when you start using all these hybrid sized fields to try to optimize player ability to the venue, its nothing but a failing effort.
SK, I'm not advocating the Pony League 13 - 14 y/o standard of 54/80, but something akin to Pony's 48/70 for use with 11-12 y/o's in the 'Bronco' division. If a 9 year old can't deal with those distances, he has no business in the majors anyway.

In our Pony rec league, 100% of the 11/12 y/o's have to go with the 48/70 distances and do just fine. The basepaths are long enough that you can have lead-offs/steals/pickoffs, so it's more like regular baseball. That's my observation from watching Pony baseball with those dimensions over many years. So, I just can't follow (and frankly don't comprehend) your assertion that, "But when you start using all these hybrid sized fields to try to optimize player ability to the venue, its nothing but a failing effort." Please explain.

[AgentX]

I've seen so many players fall off as soon as they move up to the 90' diamond. It's really sad. Decent players who enjoy the game and thrive on the 60' field quickly discover that they can't throw across the diamond or hit the ball out of the infield. The difference between a 12yo and a 13yo can be big or negligible. But the difference in field size is tremendous.

The kids who are able to make the jump are usually the ones who have experience playing on 70' or 80' fields, either in travel or MS ball.

I don't think LL takes this issue seriously because they are mired in history much like MLB. But I think the need for intermediary fields is pretty clear, and that where competing programs are able to pick up some market share.

[Olliemets]

-Big Field transition-
It's takes a full season (Spring/Summer) to make the adjustment. Our baseball loving kids also played in the fall so many played in 12+ leagues the previous to make the adjustment. Almost instructional leagues. And true, many dominant small field players drift away to LaCrosse and other sports because they don't dominate anymore. By age 15 if you can keep a skilled baseball loving kid playing, most of the late bloomer issues are resolved and they've caught up physically with the 200LB 12 year olds.

Small Field Gas Throwers-
Having participated in many tournaments with travel league players the only thing you can really do is to make the pitcher work hard and force the opponent to make plays. And stay in the game yourself. Put your best defense out there and hope for a good performance from your own pitchers. Patience at the plate, slap the ball the other way (drop bat into the zone) and bunt a lot. Mike him throw strikes. Make him and his team make plays. I've seen more than a few guys who were sailing along get rattled in close games. Including man sized 12 year olds throwing from 46 feet. In a close game where things don't go as planned they can get rattled. Of course...it's tough. But the coaching staff needs to be positive with the boys and cheer lead as well.

[scorekeeper]

I'm not sure what the rule is, but it's happening here. Even if that was against the rules, he'd get someone else to be his cronie (sp). They are blowing that team up next year anyways.

OOOOPS! Sorry rk, you’ve made a huge mistake that you’ve got to correct. Don’t be like so many people who just complain, either rightfully or wrongfully, about something they perceive as being worn. Find out what the rule is! Like AgentX noted, LL Inc is VERY mindful of its public image, and I’m positive wouldn’t mind one bit if you contacted them.

If you feel uncomfortable going to your league or District, contact your region. Go here, then got to Regional Websites under Learn More to get the web site for your region. http://www.littleleague.org/Learn_More/Regional_Websites/General_Information.htm

It really doesn’t matter if the team’s going away next year or not. If this mutt is allowed to get away with something that’s against the rules with no investigation what-so-ever, you can bet someone else is gonna try it too.

I just would like to see the best overall team win, be it in local, district, regionals, ect. If we are developing more pitchers, arms will be saved, there will be better competition, and the game will be a lot more fun.

Well, you’re right about developing more pitchers and saving arms making the game more fun for everyone. But you’ll get lotsa arguments about seeing the BEST team winning.

In the MLB, no one throws complete games anymore, and there is usually a big drop off from starter to bullpen pitchers. Why should a LL pitch a complete game? Let's see if the team can play defense? Let's see if the coach can improve and develope players.

Well, saying no one throws complete games anymore is a bit of an exaggeration, but I get your drift. As for the other things, I’m sure more people would agree with you than not, but you’re dealing with human beings here, and lots of them too. Human beings aren’t noted for using a great deal of common sense, and the more people there are, the more likely it is that you’ll run into someone who ruins things for everyone.

Hang in there! Right now your boy is a rug rat. In just a few years he’s gonna be in HS, and the problems you see now will pale in comparison to what you’ll see then. All you can do is your best to leave things better than you found them.

Good Luck!

[jaybird_1981]

SK,

I'm not sure what the rule is, but it's happening here. Even if that was against the rules, he'd get someone else to be his cronie (sp). They are blowing that team up next year anyways.

I just would like to see the best overall team win, be it in local, district, regionals, ect. If we are developing more pitchers, arms will be saved, there will be better competition, and the game will be a lot more fun.

In the MLB, no one throws complete games anymore, and there is usually a big drop off from starter to bullpen pitchers. Why should a LL pitch a complete game? Let's see if the team can play defense? Let's see if the coach can improve and develope players.

They changed this rule a few years back. The exact wording is as follows:

1- The League

b) Officers shall be elected by the Board (i.e. president, one or more vice presidents, secretary, treasurer, safety officer, coaching coordinator, and player agent or agents.) A president may manage, coach, or umpire provided he/she does not serve on the Protest Committee nor serve as tournament team manager or coach.

That is the pertinent part of the rule

[scorekeeper]

SK, I'm not advocating the Pony League 13 - 14 y/o standard of 54/80, but something akin to Pony's 48/70 for use with 11-12 y/o's in the 'Bronco' division. If a 9 year old can't deal with those distances, he has no business in the majors anyway.

I don’t mean to talk “down” to you here, but the truth is, you just can’t speak for what every kid in every league all over the world can or can’t do. As far as I know, the rules are set up for the majority, not a minority from either end of the bell curve. I happen to honestly believe all kids could and would learn to deal with a 60/90 if they had to, but lots of people have lots of different ideas.

What you seem to be advocating is, forcing every single LL Inc field in the world to be redone. And its because you believe all players who qualify for LL Inc Majors can cope with the larger field, that it would somehow be more fun, and that it would be overall better for their baseball career. All I’m saying is, LL Inc Majors leagues and teams come in all shapes and forms, and not all of them may not live up to your expectations.

In our Pony rec league, 100% of the 11/12 y/o's have to go with the 48/70 distances and do just fine. The basepaths are long enough that you can have lead-offs/steals/pickoffs, so it's more like regular baseball. That's my observation from watching Pony baseball with those dimensions over many years. So, I just can't follow (and frankly don't comprehend) your assertion that, "But when you start using all these hybrid sized fields to try to optimize player ability to the venue, its nothing but a failing effort." Please explain.

As I said, IMHO, there doesn’t need be any field size other than a 60/90. But people seem to want to optimize their child’s performance by fine tuning the field size, and increasing equipment performance. I don’t happen to agree with that type of mentality. I say, go back to wood bats and that would solve 99% of all this garbage.

One small comment before I go on. The only “Regular” or “Real” baseball, doesn’t have any sized field other than 60/90, no bat other than wood, no re-entry rules, no MPR, and quite a few other rules modifications. If kids are allowed to get the heck away from adults, they’d be happy playing in the middle of a field or street, with broom handles for bats, balls of twine for balls, no shoes, and certainly no fancy uniforms. That’s because kids don’t care about the aesthetics. All they care about is playing ball.

What I meant was pretty simple. It doesn’t matter what you do when kids don’t have body hair and are playing on any sized field other than the big one. At 12YO, they don’t get scholarships, they don’t sign contracts, and there’s a reason. They aren’t very good compared to where they have to be in order to play at the highest levels of the game. In fact, they really aren’t very good compared with just the next level up.

It takes a lot of work and a lot of time to create a top notch ball player, and it doesn’t matter one whit whether they played on a 46/60, 48/70. 50/75, 54/80, or 60/40 when they were pre-pubescent. If it did, there wouldn’t be all the players from other cultures and countries in the ML.

And basically that’s the major difference between LL Inc and some of the other organizations. If someone doesn’t like the one they’re affiliated with, they can go to the other one and be happy. Why does the entire organization they don’t happen to agree with have to change?

[AgentX]

I think you also have to recognize that not all fields are able to accommodate additional base/pitching lengths. There are many fields in LL that still have 200' fences. Our league only moved our fence back last year, and that was so we could qualify to host the state tourney.

I agree that as kids start growing rapidly through puberty an intermediary sized field makes sense, but there are deep ramifications for mandating such a change in a huge organization like LL.

There are some leagues where the parents all buy their kids $300 bats each season, adding an inch every year or so. And then there are some leagues where the kids play with hand-me-downs and go from swinging a 29" to swinging a 32."

Say what you like, but LL embraces its role in keeping the door open to everyone.

[rkbenn]

Thanks for everyones input. It seemed we got off topic.

This is what we did to prepare for one of the top pitchers in the league this past weekend. Everyone swung a lighter bat, got all the way back in the batters box, some choked up a bit, swung a weighted bat right before the at bat, we worked on being short and quick to the ball, and striding when the kid brought the ball back. I also worked 20 ft in front of home plate behind an L screen throwing BP. First 10 pitches, swing at everything, then be selective. I told the kids to swing at every pitch, and lay off pitches way outside the zone.

Last night was our test. This kid that was throwing threw 5 innings last time and we managed 2 hits from the same kid and no runs. He throws about 65. Although, not 70+, but a very good test.

We had 10 hits and scored 6 runs in 4 innings. All but 4 kids had hits. It was great!

We'll see about the #1 team, we face them next week!

[scorekeeper]

Just shows ta go ya. Nothing takes the place of good prepartion!

Way to go!


:gt:clapping

[songtitle]

Oh my. Lot's of bad advice here - I have tried all of them when we face faster pitchers.

No stride - this never works. Always stride as normal. Maybe start your stride when the pitcher releases the ball.

Choke up - this takes 2 inches out of the strike zone away from a kid that already has trouble hitting faster pitches.

Toss pitches from a shorter distance (say 30 feet) - this just screws up their stride and their timing.

My advice is the simplest. 70 mph machine pitches from normal distance.

[skipper5]

RK,
Great job. I've coached very few kids who could hit a 70 mph pitch from 46 ft. You did a terrific job to enable a bunch of your kids to do it. Must have been some smiles in your dugout.
skip

[scorekeeper]

Oh my. Lot's of bad advice here - I have tried all of them when we face faster pitchers.

No stride - this never works. Always stride as normal. Maybe start your stride when the pitcher releases the ball.

Choke up - this takes 2 inches out of the strike zone away from a kid that already has trouble hitting faster pitches.

Toss pitches from a shorter distance (say 30 feet) - this just screws up their stride and their timing.

My advice is the simplest. 70 mph machine pitches from normal distance.


More than likely, the reason those things didn’t work for you, is that they weren’t part and parcel of normal practices. You can’t flip back and forth in preparation technique and expect what you do to work.

I take issue with your evaluation of the 3 things you panned.

No stride does often work, but a lot of how well it works depends on the player.

How can choking up take 2” away from the strike zone? The strike zone size for a player doesn’t change depending on the length of the bat he uses.

Perhaps you think people are “tossing” pitches from shorter distances, the same way they toss pitches for soft toss. While some may do that, and I think they’re terribly wrong if they do, moving closer is really nothing more than decreasing the time the batter has between release and the time he has to start his swing.

A pitch from 60’6” at 70MPH takes .584 sec to reach the plate. 54MPH from 46’ is virtually the same at .581. From 42’, 50MPH gets up there in .544, and at 35’ 41MPH gets there in .582 sec. At 15’ a ball only has to be thrown at about 18MPH to produce the same result. So how does that screw up timing?

[rkbenn]

Update...our kids have been pounding the ball. We are now 10 run ruling all but one team. We had our second test. One of the 70 mph studs. We got beat in a 10 run rule against the best team. We hit the ball. We got 4 hits, no runs, but kids were getting around. The kid from the other team, had to throw off speed stuff instead of just fast balls like he did in the first meeting.. My son got a hit on a check swing to right.


I moved the ultimate pitching machine into 20 feet at 45 mph and the kids had fun doing it. I would love to know what 45mph is equivalent to from 20 feet?

[scorekeeper]

I moved the ultimate pitching machine into 20 feet at 45 mph and the kids had fun doing it. I would love to know what 45mph is equivalent to from 20 feet?

135 miles per hour

[rkbenn]

135 miles per hour

Wow, no wonder... What's the distance that is 90 mph?

[Stumanji]

Tell them to sit on the fastball. If it's anything like the Little League I've played, I'd tell them to get used to the fastball, it'll be the first two pitches this guy throws. If it looks to be a strike, swing hard.

Little League pitchers tend to follow the same formula: fastball, fastball, fastball, until the count is 0-2 or 1-2. Only then would I be looking for something different.

[songtitle]

More than likely, the reason those things didn’t work for you, is that they weren’t part and parcel of normal practices. You can’t flip back and forth in preparation technique and expect what you do to work. (1)

I take issue with your evaluation of the 3 things you panned.

No stride does often work, but a lot of how well it works depends on the player.

(2) How can choking up take 2” away from the strike zone? The strike zone size for a player doesn’t change depending on the length of the bat he uses.

(3) Perhaps you think people are “tossing” pitches from shorter distances, the same way they toss pitches for soft toss. While some may do that, and I think they’re terribly wrong if they do, moving closer is really nothing more than decreasing the time the batter has between release and the time he has to start his swing.

So how does that screw up timing?

(1) The topic is discussing how to prepare for a given team with a 70mph pitcher.

(2) Choke up 2 inches and your bat is now 2 inches shorter. Just use a lighter bat. I'm not talking rocket science here.

(3) I understand the math. I'm just telling you from doing this for 15 years, that kids immediately change their stride, their swing, and their timing, when the ball is thrown (significantly) closer to them.

[scorekeeper]

Wow, no wonder... What's the distance that is 90 mph?

Set it for 60MPH at 40'. That'll get you real close.

[scorekeeper]

(1) The topic is discussing how to prepare for a given team with a 70mph pitcher.

I understand that. But how can you say that no stride never works? I’ll say it again, the degree it works depends on the player. If you have a player who swing like Mel Ott, I suspect cutting out the stride will do wonders. But, cutting out the stride entirely from a player who has very little stride prolly won’t help much at all.

(2) Choke up 2 inches and your bat is now 2 inches shorter. Just use a lighter bat. I'm not talking rocket science here.

I understand that. Lees mass to move makes it easier to move, and 2” less length means the sweet spot of the bat moves in 2 inches. But what in the world does that have to do with the strike zone? The plate is 17” wide, no matter what length bat a player uses, and I don’t recollect a shorter bat reducing his vertical strike zone either.

(3) I understand the math. I'm just telling you from doing this for 15 years, that kids immediately change their stride, their swing, and their timing, when the ball is thrown (significantly) closer to them.

Of course they do! That’s why you continue to do until they get used to it. What really has to happen is, they have to get “quicker hands”, or rather learn how to get from load to ball striking position quicker. In order for a batter to do that, he has to start his swing at the proper time. That time differential is a function of distance and rate. It doesn’t matter what the distance or rate is, as long as they work together to give the desired time.

[hawkiirock]

you stated previously that 90% of 11-12 year old LL's need the 46 60 feet dimensions. I will say I strongly disagree with that and wonder where you came up with this number

I also strongly agree the pitching should be 48-50 and bases 70I don’t mean to talk “down” to you here, but the truth is, you just can’t speak for what every kid in every league all over the world can or can’t do. As far as I know, the rules are set up for the majority, not a minority from either end of the bell curve. I happen to honestly believe all kids could and would learn to deal with a 60/90 if they had to, but lots of people have lots of different ideas.

What you seem to be advocating is, forcing every single LL Inc field in the world to be redone. And its because you believe all players who qualify for LL Inc Majors can cope with the larger field, that it would somehow be more fun, and that it would be overall better for their baseball career. All I’m saying is, LL Inc Majors leagues and teams come in all shapes and forms, and not all of them may not live up to your expectations.



As I said, IMHO, there doesn’t need be any field size other than a 60/90. But people seem to want to optimize their child’s performance by fine tuning the field size, and increasing equipment performance. I don’t happen to agree with that type of mentality. I say, go back to wood bats and that would solve 99% of all this garbage.

One small comment before I go on. The only “Regular” or “Real” baseball, doesn’t have any sized field other than 60/90, no bat other than wood, no re-entry rules, no MPR, and quite a few other rules modifications. If kids are allowed to get the heck away from adults, they’d be happy playing in the middle of a field or street, with broom handles for bats, balls of twine for balls, no shoes, and certainly no fancy uniforms. That’s because kids don’t care about the aesthetics. All they care about is playing ball.

What I meant was pretty simple. It doesn’t matter what you do when kids don’t have body hair and are playing on any sized field other than the big one. At 12YO, they don’t get scholarships, they don’t sign contracts, and there’s a reason. They aren’t very good compared to where they have to be in order to play at the highest levels of the game. In fact, they really aren’t very good compared with just the next level up.

It takes a lot of work and a lot of time to create a top notch ball player, and it doesn’t matter one whit whether they played on a 46/60, 48/70. 50/75, 54/80, or 60/40 when they were pre-pubescent. If it did, there wouldn’t be all the players from other cultures and countries in the ML.

And basically that’s the major difference between LL Inc and some of the other organizations. If someone doesn’t like the one they’re affiliated with, they can go to the other one and be happy. Why does the entire organization they don’t happen to agree with have to change?

[scorekeeper]

you stated previously that 90% of 11-12 year old LL's need the 46 60 feet dimensions. I will say I strongly disagree with that and wonder where you came up with this number

I also strongly agree the pitching should be 48-50 and bases 70

I’m gonna answer your question, but I really don’t get why you quoted what you did, but didn’t quote what you said I sad.

Here’s what I said:

I’m a big fan of numbers. To me, the 46/60 field is the perfect size for 90% of the 12YO league age players in LL Inc. I’ll admit that it is a tad on the small side for some of the great players and knuckle draggers we’re seein’ now-a-days, but to me, making the filed bigger for 10% doesn’t help the 90%.
…

The reason I used 90% is that after many years of personal experience, and listening to thousands of stories in venues like this, Its my distinct impression that if you considered all, not just the All Stars or the better players, but all 12YO LL Inc players, the 46/60 is a perfect sized field.

It allows the below average players the chance to participate, while allowing the average and better than average players to enjoy a fair amount of success. I will say that the knuckle draggers and 12YO prodigies might find that size field a joke, but we’re only talking about maybe the top 10% of the players. That usually means at most, 1 or 2 players on a NORMAL team.

Remember, LL Inc Majors teams might be 9 thru 12, and I’ll guarantee you that there are lots of leagues that don’t have a 12YO on every team that can throw the ball 70+ or hit 250’ HRs.

So, while I respect that you disagree with me, I say take a much broader look at LL Inc than you appear to be doing. Come to our league and take a look. We have a RF fence that’s 165’, and our entire league of 5 teams hasn’t hit more than 15 HRs in any season for the last 10 years. Also, in the 15 years our league’s been around, we have never won more than 2 games at the district level, and we’ve only don’t that twice.

[hawkiirock]

I am taking a broad look. Our team has 7 12 year olds on it. 1 or 2 will be all stars. All 7 would be just fine with bigger dimensions. Another team has 5 potential all stars. Don't know much about the other teams but know they have at least 1 good player and I assume a couple solid 12 year olds


Total there are 22 or 26 Twelve year olds. According to your views 18-20 could not handle a bigger field and that is so far off the mark it is laughable. The top guys have already played some USSSA 54' pitching and 70 bases. Some did as 11 year olds as well.

The others don't have as good of arms but would not have any problems with the larger dimensions. It isn't a big jump and the travesty is going for 46 to 60 and 60 to 90 in one year... That is a huge jump and is where only the studs can handle it

Next years jump i will say only 10-20 percent will be able to handle it b/c it is such a huge jump. IF they would increase it this year than i think the percentage would increase by a good amount..

[hawkiirock]

I just read your last paragraph and really it makes my point. You are giving off percentages from all your experience but you admit you dont have a good league

You guys rarely win district games. So there are many teams in your district that are much better and thus have many more kids that could handle a larger field. Not knocking your league at all..
That is an extremely short fence as well which the better little league 12 year olds would love. If you guys are losing districts every year than I feel an increased field size won't make much different for you b/c your problems are with development or numbers or somewhere else.

Not trying to offend you. Just giving you another perspective which I feel is helped by your post saying your LL rarely wins. 10% might be the case for you but the majority beat you and thus would have a much higher %I’m gonna answer your question, but I really don’t get why you quoted what you did, but didn’t quote what you said I sad.



So, while I respect that you disagree with me, I say take a much broader look at LL Inc than you appear to be doing. Come to our league and take a look. We have a RF fence that’s 165’, and our entire league of 5 teams hasn’t hit more than 15 HRs in any season for the last 10 years. Also, in the 15 years our league’s been around, we have never won more than 2 games at the district level, and we’ve only don’t that twice.

[scorekeeper]

I am taking a broad look. Our team has 7 12 year olds on it. 1 or 2 will be all stars. All 7 would be just fine with bigger dimensions. Another team has 5 potential all stars. Don't know much about the other teams but know they have at least 1 good player and I assume a couple solid 12 year olds

Appearances are, you are only considering what you see in your league. What about the other 5, and all the other U12’s in the world who are playing?

Total there are 22 or 26 Twelve year olds. According to your views 18-20 could not handle a bigger field and that is so far off the mark it is laughable. The top guys have already played some USSSA 54' pitching and 70 bases. Some did as 11 year olds as well.

I don’t know what you’re reading, but I don’t believe I ever said anyone couldn’t “HANDLE” a bigger field. What I’m saying is, going to a field larger than the 46/60 would lower the competitiveness of vastly more kids than it helps. The top 10% are already way ahead of the rest, and by moving everyone to a larger field would only make it worse.

The others don't have as good of arms but would not have any problems with the larger dimensions. It isn't a big jump and the travesty is going for 46 to 60 and 60 to 90 in one year... That is a huge jump and is where only the studs can handle it

Sorry, but that is nothing but a pantload. I went from 46/60 to 60/90 back in 59, and except for the Viet Nam war, would have signed the pro contract I was offered. I don’t know where you folks get the idea that all these intermediate fields have been around forever, but they haven’t, and lots of players “handled it”.

Next years jump i will say only 10-20 percent will be able to handle it b/c it is such a huge jump. IF they would increase it this year than i think the percentage would increase by a good amount..

Again, evidently you’re basing your responses on your league, because you’re certainly not seeing leagues like ours.

I just read your last paragraph and really it makes my point. You are giving off percentages from all your experience but you admit you dont have a good league

I surely wish you’d quit putting words in my mouth! I said no such thing like we don’t have a good league! Although we have our problems, our league is a wonderful league great league! But, my experiences include watching leagues like ours who’ve never gotten out of District All Stars, to leagues around us that have sent teams all the way to Williamsport!

You guys rarely win district games. So there are many teams in your district that are much better and thus have many more kids that could handle a larger field. Not knocking your league at all..

Well, you are knocking our league to try to make a point, so don’t try to say you aren’t.

If you look back, you’ll see that I said I wouldn’t be bothered if every game was played on a 60/90. But most people couldn’t stand to see their child look relatively pathetic compared to the “BEST”.

That is an extremely short fence as well which the better little league 12 year olds would love. If you guys are losing districts every year than I feel an increased field size won't make much different for you b/c your problems are with development or numbers or somewhere else.

Well, I’ve got big news for you. We have to play a schedule that includes 2 other leagues, and those other leagues have come in with some really great players who didn’t find the fence length so wonderful. In fact, until the rules changed to where the Majors AS games had to be played on at least 200’ fields, our districts were held at our park. In 7 years of district games, there was never an average of over 2 HRs per game, and I know that because I did the numbers for the tournament.

Not trying to offend you. Just giving you another perspective which I feel is helped by your post saying your LL rarely wins. 10% might be the case for you but the majority beat you and thus would have a much higher %

Don’t say you aren’t trying to offend me because that’s exactly what you’re doing. You’re taking the fact that because our League doesn’t win a lot of AS games, and extrapolating it to mean our league sucks, and so do our coaches and players. I think you need to take a look at the Mission Statement of Little League Inc. http://www.littleleague.org/Learn_More/About_Our_Organization/historyandmission/mission.htm

Tell me how many places in there it talks about winning and losing. This sentence pretty much says it all for me:

By espousing the virtues of character, courage and loyalty, the Little League Baseball and Softball program is designed to develop superior citizens rather than superior athletes.

[songtitle]

What really has to happen is, they have to get “quicker hands”, or rather learn how to get from load to ball striking position quicker. In order for a batter to do that, he has to start his swing at the proper time.

The "quicker hands" cue is confusing to kids. They simply need to start the swing sooner.

Generally what I see is that most kids make the mistake of beginning their stride after they decide the pitch is a strike. They may not have their front foot on the ground and they will be late.

They must stride on every pitch. Then, when they decide the ball is a strike (about halfway home), start moving your front hip.

[scorekeeper]

The "quicker hands" cue is confusing to kids. They simply need to start the swing sooner.

Generally what I see is that most kids make the mistake of beginning their stride after they decide the pitch is a strike. They may not have their front foot on the ground and they will be late.

They must stride on every pitch. Then, when they decide the ball is a strike (about halfway home), start moving your front hip.

That’s why you don’t tell them why they’re doing the drill until they get it.

I don’t now and never have claimed to be a swing guru or student. But I can say that I’ve seen and heard about a great many people who are students or gurus, advocate either a no stride or minimum stride approach. So, I’m not saying you’re wrong, but that there are plenty of others who say something very different. And since players who use both techniques have become extremely proficient hitters, I’m guessing one size will never fit all.

[hawkiirock]

that is a long reply. I got through the first paragraph. My experience is that our little league isn't a top notch program and I know way more than 10 % can handle a bigger field and would benefit it. Not for a second do I believe your little league only has 10% of players who would do alright at 48-50 pitching and 70' bases.

If that is the case than I stand by my comment on problems are deeper and more a development issue. Sorry you are taking offense to that and I hope others do chime in so we can get some more opinionsAppearances are, you are only considering what you see in your league. What about the other 5, and all the other U12’s in the world who are playing?




By espousing the virtues of character, courage and loyalty, the Little League Baseball and Softball program is designed to develop superior citizens rather than superior athletes. [/SIZE][/I][/B][/COLOR]

[scorekeeper]

that is a long reply. I got through the first paragraph. My experience is that our little league isn't a top notch program and I know way more than 10 % can handle a bigger field and would benefit it. Not for a second do I believe your little league only has 10% of players who would do alright at 48-50 pitching and 70' bases.

If that is the case than I stand by my comment on problems are deeper and more a development issue. Sorry you are taking offense to that and I hope others do chime in so we can get some more opinions

And that’s why it’ll take you a lot longer than it should to learn.

I never said there wouldn’t be players that benefited from a bigger field, especially if the lesser players move up with them. And I never said our league didn’t have lots of players who would do all right on a larger field.

I’m saying there are hundreds of thousands of kids playing in the LL Inc Majors division, and a lot of them would be penalized! But, the 46/60 field is the one that is best for 90% of those players. You’re only worried about the best kids, while LL Inc is worrying about all the kids.

[hawkiirock]

90% of kids is baloney. If the 12 year old plans on playing as a 13 year old than you have your % backwards. 90 will benefit from a gradual increase rather than getting thrown on a big field.

Your last sentence is pure BS. The best kids will b fine at the next level regardless. The lesser kids are the ones that will do even worse on the big field. you have it all backwards.
It is common sense. Gradually increase the distance. Dont just jump from 60 to 90 and 46 to 60. That is my opinion

I am sorry this thread got so sidetracked

And that’s why it’ll take you a lot longer than it should to learn.

I never said there wouldn’t be players that benefited from a bigger field, especially if the lesser players move up with them. And I never said our league didn’t have lots of players who would do all right on a larger field.

I’m saying there are hundreds of thousands of kids playing in the LL Inc Majors division, and a lot of them would be penalized! But, the 46/60 field is the one that is best for 90% of those players. You’re only worried about the best kids, while LL Inc is worrying about all the kids.

[Jake Patterson]

90% of kids is baloney. If the 12 year old plans on playing as a 13 year old than you have your % backwards. 90 will benefit from a gradual increase rather than getting thrown on a big field.


Hawk go back and re-read Scores post.

I’m saying there are hundreds of thousands of kids playing in the LL Inc Majors division, and a lot of them would be penalized! But, the 46/60 field is the one that is best for 90% of those players. You’re only worried about the best kids, while LL Inc is worrying about all the kids.

Having coached MS and HS I do not think that Score is that far off. Not all kids playing Majors are 12 y/o. Many are 11 and some are 10.

In our town we have nearly 90 kids playing Majors. We have 13 players on our MS team of which about half are 8th graders moving on - or about 6 slots per year. We have 6 teams feeding into one.

For High School we have several MS feeding into our program.

Make sense??

[hawkiirock]

i was merely talking about 12 year olds which I believe score was as well.

What is your opinion on the jump for 46-60 and 60-90

Wouldn't you agree that they would be better served to go 48-54
and 70 or so on bases? Shorten the jump for them.Hawk go back and re-read Scores post.



Having coached MS and HS I do not think that Score is that far off. Not all kids playing Majors are 12 y/o. Many are 11 and some are 10.

In our town we have nearly 90 kids playing Majors. We have 13 players on our MS team of which about half are 8th graders moving on - or about 6 slots per year. We have 6 teams feeding into one.

For High School we have several MS feeding into our program.

Make sense??

[Jake Patterson]

i was merely talking about 12 year olds which I believe score was as well.

What is your opinion on the jump for 46-60 and 60-90

Wouldn't you agree that they would be better served to go 48-54
and 70 or so on bases? Shorten the jump for them.

It does make some sense, however most towns/areas can't afford three different sized fields. So it's an impractical solution for most areas.

Plus there is little opportunity for the middle sized field in those areas that play MS ball as they follow HS rules. Having been around school ball for awhile my feeling is- it is what it is. The game has been played on a 60/90 for more than 100 years. We should leave the "Little" and "Big" league concept alone and stop trying to modify the game to meet the needs of those who struggle. I feel that changing the game to accommodate the incapable does the game and the athlete a disservice.

[hawkiirock]

fair enough and I do agree that many places can't afford the extra fields. So the kids would be stuck playing on mens softball fields if they want the larger distanceIt does make some sense, however most towns/areas can't afford three different sized fields. So it's an impractical solution for most areas.

Plus there is little opportunity for the middle sized field in those areas that play MS ball as they follow HS rules. Having been around school ball for awhile my feeling is- it is what it is. The game has been played on a 60/90 for more than 100 years. We should leave the "Little" and "Big" league concept alone and stop trying to modify the game to meet the needs of those who struggle. I feel that changing the game to accommodate the incapable does the game and the athlete a disservice.

[AgentX]

fair enough and I do agree that many places can't afford the extra fields. So the kids would be stuck playing on mens softball fields if they want the larger distance

There are a few of these "multi-use" fields around here. They all have all dirt infields, 3 different plugs for bases (60'/70'/80') and either an artificial mound, or a clay mound with 3 different pitching rubbers positioned on it.

I can't say that I'm a fan of them.

[Jake Patterson]

fair enough and I do agree that many places can't afford the extra fields. So the kids would be stuck playing on mens softball fields if they want the larger distance
Hawk... I wrestle with a philosophical dichotomy here.
1. Leave the game alone forcing those who can not make it to go explore other things. I feel that many kids play because they are driven by their parents, not their own interests. Maybe we have stifled a number of artists and pianists.
2. Keep the kids playing as long as you can as the game can teach much.... but them again so can music.

[scorekeeper]

i was merely talking about 12 year olds which I believe score was as well….

I was absolutely not talking about just 12YO’s! I was talking about All kids who play in LL Inc’s Majors division. That’s why I kept saying you weren’t looking at the broad picture.

[scorekeeper]

It does make some sense, however most towns/areas can't afford three different sized fields. So it's an impractical solution for most areas.

While that is an undisputable fact, its also that by adding another sized field for the Majors, Williams port would be forced to add another entire division, complete with all the accompanying rules. That would force leagues to have tryouts, effectively making it select ball, rather than rec ball.

This subject comes up every single year. And every single year LL Inc is castigated for being behind the times, and the cries go up that LLI will lose its better players to other programs, effectively killing it. What I don’t understand is, why people keep wanting to see the most expensive of all options, in terms of resources, rather than simply taking the most simple and cheapest option.

If LLI doesn’t offer what you feel your child needs, go to a program that does. You can still play LLI for fun and to be with friends, but for those who have a higher level of baseball as their goal, playing in programs that offer what a parent feels is “better”, is perfectly acceptable to me.

Plus there is little opportunity for the middle sized field in those areas that play MS ball as they follow HS rules. Having been around school ball for awhile my feeling is- it is what it is. The game has been played on a 60/90 for more than 100 years. We should leave the "Little" and "Big" league concept alone and stop trying to modify the game to meet the needs of those who struggle. I feel that changing the game to accommodate the incapable does the game and the athlete a disservice.

To tell the truth, after having seen or heard of literally thousands of players who’ve gone from the 46/60 at 12 to the 60/90 at 13 in LLI, I don’t really get what the big deal is. Even now, with the LLI programs for Jrs, Srs, and Big League divisions having a far lesser percentage of available players than there was 15-20 years ago, there’s still a heap of kids that make the change.

And if a kid who was a hot shot at 12 on the 46/60 can’t make the adjustment at 13, so what? That doesn’t mean it the end of organized baseball for him/her! They are always welcome to continue trying out for teams. If a kid was a hot shot on the small field but can’t make the transition right away, he’s already proven he has the innate talent to play, but might need that growth spurt to let him compete equally.

[hawkiirock]

I saw this post with 12 YO and just took it as you talking about 12 year olds in general. It makes a lot more sense for there to be a gradual jump rather than going from 60 to 90. But i really don't care. My son is 12 and and he will be jumping to the big field next year. He has a strong arm and I think he will do alright. There are a lot of kids though that are gonna be screwed by the big increase


EDIT: I would also like to add that you stated 9 year olds are screwed by moving up. I will counter that with the fact 9 year olds are screwed by having to bat off 12 year olds at 46'. The top 12 year olds mow down the bottom 1/2 of the order. Completely overmatched. I think overmatching them in the batters box takes way more fun out of it than making them throw the ball a few feet further. Ask those young kids and I bet they would love the mound to be further back as well lolI’m a big fan of numbers. To me, the 46/60 field is the perfect size for 90% of the 12YO league age players in LL Inc. I’ll admit that it is a tad on the small side for some of the great players and knuckle draggers we’re seein’ now-a-days, but to me, making the filed bigger for 10% doesn’t help the 90%.



I’m not familiar with LL Inc rules anymore. Can a 13YO who’s a league age 12 play in the Jr program?

[AgentX]

I saw this post with 12 YO and just took it as you talking about 12 year olds in general. It makes a lot more sense for there to be a gradual jump rather than going from 60 to 90. But i really don't care. My son is 12 and and he will be jumping to the big field next year. He has a strong arm and I think he will do alright. There are a lot of kids though that are gonna be screwed by the big increase


EDIT: I would also like to add that you stated 9 year olds are screwed by moving up. I will counter that with the fact 9 year olds are screwed by having to bat off 12 year olds at 46'. The top 12 year olds mow down the bottom 1/2 of the order. Completely overmatched. I think overmatching them in the batters box takes way more fun out of it than making them throw the ball a few feet further. Ask those young kids and I bet they would love the mound to be further back as well lol

We play 9/10s in Minors, 11/12s in Majors. The difference between 9 and 12 is so huge, it's a tragedy to pit a 9yo against a 12yo like that.

[hawkiirock]

i agree and it supports what I said.. Score stated it wasn't fair to put 9 year olds on a bigger field. I agree they would struggle there. But why is it ok to put them against 12 year olds at 46 foot pitching distance


Our league is 9-12 but most 9 and 10 are in minorsWe play 9/10s in Minors, 11/12s in Majors. The difference between 9 and 12 is so huge, it's a tragedy to pit a 9yo against a 12yo like that.

[scorekeeper]

I saw this post with 12 YO and just took it as you talking about 12 year olds in general. It makes a lot more sense for there to be a gradual jump rather than going from 60 to 90. But i really don't care. My son is 12 and and he will be jumping to the big field next year. He has a strong arm and I think he will do alright. There are a lot of kids though that are gonna be screwed by the big increase

I don’t think SCREWED is the right word. I think what’ll happen is, all the kids will appear to have taken a step back simply because the size of the field will magnify their mistakes and shortcomings. But, they’ll remain exactly where they were relative to the other players.

EDIT:I would also like to add that you stated 9 year olds are screwed by moving up. I will counter that with the fact 9 year olds are screwed by having to bat off 12 year olds at 46'. The top 12 year olds mow down the bottom 1/2 of the order. Completely overmatched. I think overmatching them in the batters box takes way more fun out of it than making them throw the ball a few feet further. Ask those young kids and I bet they would love the mound to be further back as well lol

I searched but couldn’t find where I said that. I do remember saying something along those lines, but I just can’t find it. Please quote where I said it so that I may properly respond.

However, as to your point about 0YOs getting screwed by having to bat off 12YOs at 46’. My son was a particularly small 9YO when he got drafted into the majors. But, he batted somewhere around .270 that season, and there were lots of PA’s against 12YOs. He could have played in the Minors and likely have batter well over .500, but his dad realizes that the two performances are about the same relative to the competition.

Now when you start talking about the TOP 12YOs mowing down the bottom half of the order, I think you’re wrong. The top ones mow down the entire lineup except for an occasional hit. What I’m saying is, the top pitchers overmatch everyone! Even the greatest 12YO hitters will find they don’t perform even a third as well as they do against normal pitching.

To me the answer isn’t making the fields bigger, its not allowing the dominant pitchers to throw so much! Let the other pitchers develop, and by doing that you allow the fielders and the hitters to develop too.

[scorekeeper]

… Score stated it wasn't fair to put 9 year olds on a bigger field. …

Where is that quote? I’ve looked for it but can’t find it.

[g-mac]

To me the answer isn’t making the fields bigger, its not allowing the dominant pitchers to throw so much! Let the other pitchers develop, and by doing that you allow the fielders and the hitters to develop too.
Good point sir.

[AgentX]

i agree and it supports what I said.. Score stated it wasn't fair to put 9 year olds on a bigger field. I agree they would struggle there. But why is it ok to put them against 12 year olds at 46 foot pitching distance


Our league is 9-12 but most 9 and 10 are in minors

Occasionally, a strong 10yo will play up in majors, but they must be strong, and they have to WANT to. I've never seen a 9yo do it, and I don't know why one would want to. At 9, you're a first year rookie out of coach pitch. There are a few CP 8U travel teams around, but if you're starting travel at 8, then you're very unlikely to ever play rec.

The point is that even a strong 9yo with a hormonal imbalance that puts them on par with kids 3 years older is probably NOT going to want to move up to Majors and struggle or sit. I'm surprised if it is different elsewhere, as I presumed this was standard practice, even in a small league like ours where we can only field 5 majors teams (4 last year).

[AgentX]

To me the answer isn’t making the fields bigger, its not allowing the dominant pitchers to throw so much! Let the other pitchers develop, and by doing that you allow the fielders and the hitters to develop too.
I agree as far as developing pitching is concerned.

Because one of our aces was out with an injury for 2 weeks, we were able to "discover" a couple of decent pitchers on our squad, including one 11yo who confounded batters for 5 whole innings. Neither one of them is bound to play All-Stars, but neither one would have had a shot at pitching a year ago.

I've become a big fan of the new pitch count rules. They make the majors games a lot like MLB. You generally see strong starting pitching through the first few innings followed by late game rallies. Our team plated 4 runs in the top of the final inning last night to even the game at 8 runs apiece, and then held on to tie with the winning run on 3rd. This season there has been no really dominant teams led by dominant pitching, and few blowout games decided by mercy rule. Any team can beat any other team on any given day.

Where I DON'T necessarily agree with your statement is in the part about weaker pitching helping hitters develop. I don't see that. It may build confidence, but not as much as hitting (successfully) against stronger pitching. And since success is the product of preparation, the answer is really to prepare hitters to face dominant pitching.

For example, our league's 12yo AS team was absolutely crushed in last year's district tourney by pitchers throwing 60-70mph. The only ones who were able to hit against it were the 11yos on the team. There were no 12yos capable of throwing that hard, so the team had little experience hitting it. The only pitchers in the league able to break 60mph were 11yos.

[scorekeeper]

Occasionally, a strong 10yo will play up in majors, but they must be strong, and they have to WANT to. I've never seen a 9yo do it, and I don't know why one would want to. At 9, you're a first year rookie out of coach pitch. There are a few CP 8U travel teams around, but if you're starting travel at 8, then you're very unlikely to ever play rec.

The point is that even a strong 9yo with a hormonal imbalance that puts them on par with kids 3 years older is probably NOT going to want to move up to Majors and struggle or sit. I'm surprised if it is different elsewhere, as I presumed this was standard practice, even in a small league like ours where we can only field 5 majors teams (4 last year).

Don’t only think of your league or what you’ve seen!

There are lots of very small leagues in the world who have to use 9’s and 10’s in order to have more than 1 or 2 teams in their league. And not everyone’s lower system has kids playing coach pitch at 8! Heck, for years our league didn’t have a coach pitch division, but now it has both coach pitch and kid pitch.

I’m not trying to say what you’re seeing in your league isn’t absolutely true. I’m saying that what you’re seeing in your league isn’t the world wide norm, and that’s what LLI has to deal with.

[scorekeeper]

…Where I DON'T necessarily agree with your statement is in the part about weaker pitching helping hitters develop. I don't see that. It may build confidence, but not as much as hitting (successfully) against stronger pitching. And since success is the product of preparation, the answer is really to prepare hitters to face dominant pitching.

For example, our league's 12yo AS team was absolutely crushed in last year's district tourney by pitchers throwing 60-70mph. The only ones who were able to hit against it were the 11yos on the team. There were no 12yos capable of throwing that hard, so the team had little experience hitting it. The only pitchers in the league able to break 60mph were 11yos.

Its OK not to agree! It forces me to attempt to convince you.

But let’s make sure we both understand what I’m saying. I didn’t say weaker pitching helped hitters develop, but I can understand how you might misunderstand what I meant.

I was talking about pitchers below the very top level who were throwing at velocities that no hitters were able to hit with any kind of regularity. I was thinking along the lines of BP. The purpose of BP isn’t to fool the hitters. It to give hitter practice at hitting the ball. Live pitching is a bit different. It may be that the pitchers aren’t laying the ball in there just to get hit to get some practice of their own, but again, the main purpose is to give hitter a chance to improve. Have you ever seen a BP where the pitchers are trying the best to NOT allow the hitter to hit the ball?

So you see, “weaker pitching” is only relative. I wasn’t talking about putting some kid out there who can hardly find the plate, or who can’t reach the plate without an 8’ arc on the ball. I was thinking about “normal” or average pitchers that all hitters have at least a decent opportunity to put the bat on the ball against.

Evidently your league has an 11YO division and a 12. That’s pretty strange in this part of the country. It sound to me though, like perhaps ya’ll ought to consider mixing the 11’s with the 12’s.

[AgentX]

The purpose of BP isn’t to fool the hitters. It to give hitter practice at hitting the ball. Live pitching is a bit different. It may be that the pitchers aren’t laying the ball in there just to get hit to get some practice of their own, but again, the main purpose is to give hitter a chance to improve. Have you ever seen a BP where the pitchers are trying the best to NOT allow the hitter to hit the ball?
I will throw a "hard BP" to experienced hitters during practices (not pre-game warmups). IME, unless these players get a chance to practice hitting off-speed stuff, or looking for inside/outside pitches, then the only opportunity they will have to do so will be in game situations.


Evidently your league has an 11YO division and a 12. That’s pretty strange in this part of the country. It sound to me though, like perhaps ya’ll ought to consider mixing the 11’s with the 12’s.
I don't think I said that. Sorry if I wasn't more clear. The point I was trying to make is that our 12s were less accustomed to faster pitching than the 11s because they'd seen more of it.

Our majors division is 11/12. Our LL fields All-Star teams for 9, 10, 9/10, 11, and 11/12yos, and we just started doing CP All-Stars, much to my chagrin. We also field a Sr and Jr league AS team. Last year our Srs went all the way to the SLWS in Bangor, the second time in 6 years we've sent a team there.

Compared to neighboring leagues, we're small. But we're usually pretty competitive in spite of our size.

[scorekeeper]

I will throw a "hard BP" to experienced hitters during practices (not pre-game warmups). IME, unless these players get a chance to practice hitting off-speed stuff, or looking for inside/outside pitches, then the only opportunity they will have to do so will be in game situations.

Why just to “experienced” hitters? I thought the purpose of a BP was to rise the level of every hitter.

I don't think I said that. Sorry if I wasn't more clear. The point I was trying to make is that our 12s were less accustomed to faster pitching than the 11s because they'd seen more of it.

Our majors division is 11/12.

Now I’m really confused. If your 11’s and 12’s play together, I'm assuming that's the better 11's. So how is it that the 11’s have seen more “faster” pitching?

Our LL fields All-Star teams for 9, 10, 9/10, 11, and 11/12yos, and we just started doing CP All-Stars, much to my chagrin. We also field a Sr and Jr league AS team. Last year our Srs went all the way to the SLWS in Bangor, the second time in 6 years we've sent a team there.

Compared to neighboring leagues, we're small. But we're usually pretty competitive in spite of our size.

I don’t know what the “average” size league in LLI is, but compared to most leagues I’m familiar with in this area, what you’re describing is enormous.

[AgentX]

Why just to “experienced” hitters? I thought the purpose of a BP was to rise the level of every hitter.
Because 8 or 9 out of 10 rec hitters will gain nothing from a hard BP. Until they turn the corner in understanding why they can't hit the pitch, the only purpose it serves is to undermine their confidence. Travel/AS players are expected to find success against tough pitching. I don't know how they can do that without practicing it.

Now I’m really confused. If your 11’s and 12’s play together, I'm assuming that's the better 11's. So how is it that the 11’s have seen more “faster” pitching?
Because the 11s played against eachother when they were 10s, and were 11s in a 11/12 division. Granted, if you have a fireballing 11yo on your squad you're going to pitch him, but nobody is likely to raise an eyebrow if he's the #3 pitcher behind a pair of 12yos. That's just LL. Also, the fact that there is no 12yo AS team (there is only 12U) makes all the difference.

I don’t know what the “average” size league in LLI is, but compared to most leagues I’m familiar with in this area, what you’re describing is enormous.
Why?

We've got about 400 kids in 6 divisions from teeball to Srs.

That's 6 teeball teams, 8 CP teams, 9 minors, 5 majors, 3 JRs and 1 SRs team.

By comparison, our neighboring league fielded something like 18 CP teams alone last FALL season.

[hawkiirock]

than we can put your son in that 10% category.

In our previous town my boy was playing majors as an 7-8 year old. He held his own. Struck out swinging against the fast kids. Put it in play against the middle and lower kids.
He than played travel ball with older kids and did city league. We have now moved again and he is playing against kids his own age for the first time in his life.

Either way I just think you can't have it both ways. Worry about how they look on the big field but not worry how they do on the small one. Easier to leave it how it is though I disagreeI don’t think SCREWED is the right word. I think what’ll happen is, all the kids will appear to have taken a step back simply because the size of the field will magnify their mistakes and shortcomings. But, they’ll remain exactly where they were relative to the other players.



I searched but couldn’t find where I said that. I do remember saying something along those lines, but I just can’t find it. Please quote where I said it so that I may properly respond.

However, as to your point about 0YOs getting screwed by having to bat off 12YOs at 46’. My son was a particularly small 9YO when he got drafted into the majors. But, he batted somewhere around .270 that season, and there were lots of PA’s against 12YOs. He could have played in the Minors and likely have batter well over .500, but his dad realizes that the two performances are about the same relative to the competition.

Now when you start talking about the TOP 12YOs mowing down the bottom half of the order, I think you’re wrong. The top ones mow down the entire lineup except for an occasional hit. What I’m saying is, the top pitchers overmatch everyone! Even the greatest 12YO hitters will find they don’t perform even a third as well as they do against normal pitching.

To me the answer isn’t making the fields bigger, its not allowing the dominant pitchers to throw so much! Let the other pitchers develop, and by doing that you allow the fielders and the hitters to develop too.