If not Salomon Torres, then who?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I thought I'd give this it's own thread. Many Giants think today, after-the-fact, that Baker shouldn't have started Salomon Torres in the ill-fated October 3, 1993 season finale against the Dodgers. They say Torres was not the best choice. So my question is who should Dusty have started? Going into this Sunday game neither Billy Swift nor John Burkett were available to pitch because they had pitched the Thursday and Friday night games. It's my view that Dusty had no good choices and that Torres was no worse a choice than starting a middling veteran reliever. What say you Giants' fan.

[Rich the Giants fan]

It would have been either Scott Sanderson or Jim Deshaies. Deshaies was not very good in his short stint with the team after being acquired in late August (17 IP, 24 H, 6 BB, 5 K) while Sanderson had pitched 2 1/3 innings in relief only 3 days previously.

This is why I will always defend Baker's choice of Torres. He might not have been a great option (and hindsight makes it so easy to say he was wrong), but he didn't have any real better options.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

a 21 year old rookie in a strange country who was 14th on the team in IP and 15th in appearances and the best you can say is no one was worse?

LOL

[9RoyHobbsRF]

I thought I'd give this it's own thread. Many Giants think today, after-the-fact, that Baker shouldn't have started Salomon Torres in the ill-fated October 3, 1993 season finale against the Dodgers. They say Torres was not the best choice. So my question is who should Dusty have started? Going into this Sunday game neither Billy Swift nor John Burkett were available to pitch because they had pitched the Thursday and Friday night games. It's my view that Dusty had no good choices and that Torres was no worse a choice than starting a middling veteran reliever. What say you Giants' fan.

WRONG

many Giants fans said that BEFORE THE FACT

that is where your argument fails

the tired Baker excuse "well me and Hank used to hate facing late season call ups" was villified BEFORE the game

not 16 years after

[Honus Wagner Rules]

It would have been either Scott Sanderson or Jim Deshaies. Deshaies was not very good in his short stint with the team after being acquired in late August (17 IP, 24 H, 6 BB, 5 K) while Sanderson had pitched 2 1/3 innings in relief only 3 days previously.

This is why I will always defend Baker's choice of Torres. He might not have been a great option (and hindsight makes it so easy to say he was wrong), but he didn't have any real better options.
Good point. Let's be straight here. Torres was not a GREAT option. But Sanderson and Deshaies were no better options. So basically it's rolling the dice. Do you go with the veteran retreads or do you go with the inexperienced rookie with nasty stuff whom the Dodgers have never faced before? There is no "right" answer here. Torres pitched well in the first two innings then faltered in the third. When he left the game in the 4th inning the score was only 3-0. The Giants scored in the top of the 5th to make it 3-1. Going into the bottom of the 5th inning the game was very much in doubt. The Giants were still in the game despite Torres getting run early. Then the Giants bullpen fell apart and that was all she wrote. It think it's kind of silly to put the full blame on Torres for this loss. The Giants hitters got shut down by Kevin Gross and Burba gave up 4 runs in 1.1 inning which basically put the game out of reach for the Giants.

[Rich the Giants fan]

a 21 year old rookie in a strange country who was 14th on the team in IP and 15th in appearances and the best you can say is no one was worse?

LOL

Sad but true. I mean, Hickerson got pounded the day before but only pitched two innings. Maybe Dusty could've thrown him to the dogs.

[Rich the Giants fan]

WRONG

many Giants fans said that BEFORE THE FACT

that is where your argument fails

the tired Baker excuse "well me and Hank used to hate facing late season call ups" was villified BEFORE the game

not 16 years after

So who did you think he should have gone with?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

WRONG

many Giants fans said that BEFORE THE FACT

that is where your argument fails

the tired Baker excuse "well me and Hank used to hate facing late season call ups" was villified BEFORE the game

not 16 years after

Try again. I am not using Dusty's silly argument. I'm looking at the facts and the situation going into that last game, which pitchers Dusty had to choose from. I've asked you to name with pitcher Dusty should have started instead and you have no answer. Until you do you have nothing to add to this discussion.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

Try again. I am not using Dusty's silly argument. I'm looking at the facts and the situation going into that last game, which pitchers Dusty had to choose from. I've asked you to name with pitcher Dusty should have started instead and you have no answer. Until you do you have nothing to add to this discussion.

there you go again with your holier than thou condescending remarks again

YOU ANSWER MY QUESTIONS and quit runniung this like an attorney confronting a witness

[9RoyHobbsRF]

Try again. I am not using Dusty's silly argument.

so you are not putting forward that it is just hindsight and that many questioned this BEFORE the game

admit you were wrong in your stipulation or prove you were right

dont just gloss over it and move on

[Honus Wagner Rules]

there you go again with your holier than thou condescending remarks again

Look in the mirror...



YOU ANSWER MY QUESTIONS and quit runniung this like an attorney confronting a witness

I asked you a simple question about who Dusty should have started then you take an hauty-taughty attitude about it.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

no reply necessary

I am not a witness being confronted by Perry Mason

your stipulation was based on FACTUAL ERRORS

and the best you can do is ANSWER MY QUESTION OR STOP PLAYING

SHEESH!

[Honus Wagner Rules]

so you are not putting forward that it is just hindsight and that many questioned this BEFORE the game



admit you were wrong in your stipulation or prove you were right

dont just gloss over it and move on
Did i say everyone complained only after the game? No, I did not. And I'll ask again who should Dusty have started instead of Torres? Is tis simply question too difficult to answer?

[Rich the Giants fan]

no reply necessary

I am not a witness being confronted by Perry Mason

your stipulation was based on FACTUAL ERRORS

and the best you can do is ANSWER MY QUESTION OR STOP PLAYING

SHEESH!

Um, I asked the same question. Would you mind answering that for me? Because I've already put it out there that there were no real better options. Who would you rather have seen pitch that game?

[9RoyHobbsRF]

yes your stipulation which was used to start the thread and was a key element

was proven to be not close to 100% accurate

since you accuse me of not be able to read things in my own post i will REPOST it for you...

Many Giants think today, after-the-fact, that Baker shouldn't have started Salomon Torres

thank you

[Honus Wagner Rules]

no reply necessary

I am not a witness being confronted by Perry Mason

your stipulation was based on FACTUAL ERRORS

and the best you can do is ANSWER MY QUESTION OR STOP PLAYING

SHEESH!

In my OP I said "Many Giants fans today, after-the-fact, ...

I didn't say ALL Giants fans. Plus, that's not even the point of this thread. My main point is that Torres is not the main reason the Giants lost this game and that going into the bottom of the 5th inning the Giants were only down 3-1 and still very much in the game. And, I'll ask you again, who should have Dusty started instead of Torres? If you can't answer this simple question then stop wasting our time.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

Um, I asked the same question. Would you mind answering that for me? Because I've already put it out there that there were no real better options. Who would you rather have seen pitch that game?

my belief at the time and to continue to this day was that the reason Torres was chosen was NOT becuase simply he was th eonly choice available and good god we know he wasn't

it was stated by Baker that he thought starting Torres WAS A GOOD CHOICE because...

"me and hank hated facing late season call-ups"

I admit this would be hard for a ML to face a pitcher for the first time, not knowing what his stuff is or what he threw in what situatuons,

but that pair of jacks was trumped by the full house of the game was the most important regular season game in perhaps 10 if not 20 years and a 21 year old rookie with precious little ml experience would not be expected to be able to handle the pressure. a "retread" veteran at least would have been more adept

I believe that to this day

you have already thrown names out there

my answer remains FOR THOSE WHO CANT READ

anybody, but a 21 year old rookie with 1 month ML experience

[9RoyHobbsRF]

If you can't answer this simple question then stop wasting our time.
__________________


wasting time would be an excellent description of needing to start this thread to throw out your broken record "well who would you have started"

unnecesssary thread

youi already had this on another thread

[Honus Wagner Rules]

yes your stipulation which was used to start the thread and was a key element

was proven to be not close to 100% accurate

since you accuse me of not be able to read things in my own post i will REPOST it for you...

Many Giants think today, after-the-fact, that Baker shouldn't have started Salomon Torres

thank you
Did I say ALL? I don't think so. Anyway, the point of this thread titled "If not Salomon Torres then who?" is to discuss what other options Dusty had to start this last game? I've asked you several times and you have refused to answer this rather question simple. If you cannot answer this answer then just admit you don't know and we can move on. Sheesh.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

Did I say ALL? I don't think so. Anyway, the point of this thread titled "If not Salomon Torres then who?" is to discuss what other options Dusty had to start this last game? I've asked you several times and you have refused to answer this rather question simple. If you cannot answer this answer then just admit you don't know and we can move on. Sheesh.

broken record of condescending holier than thou attiitude

sorry you are not gods gift to this site or thread

[Honus Wagner Rules]

If you can't answer this simple question then stop wasting our time.
__________________


wasting time would be an excellent description of needing to start this thread to throw out your broken record "well who would you have started"

unnecesssary thread

youi already had this on another thread

Well, you are certainly are an unnecessary poster in this thread. If you don't like this thread then don't post in it. Simple as that.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

Well, you are certainly are an unnecessary poster in this thread. If you don't like this thread then don't post in it. Simple as that.

sorry I dont do what you tell me to do

or in reverse

if you want to make stupid silly little points that are already covered in another thread

dont wast time and effort and space making a new thread

then telling people you will take your ball and go home and stay off my thread

sorry you cant deal with it

[Honus Wagner Rules]

sorry I dont do what you tell me to do

or in reverse

if you want to make stupid silly little points that are already covered in another thread

dont wast time and effort and space making a new thread

then telling people you will take your ball and go home and stay off my thread

sorry you cant deal with it

Yet you whine about it. Go figure.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

Well, you are certainly are an unnecessary poster in this thread. If you don't like this thread then don't post in it. Simple as that.

attitude 101 hypocrite

[9RoyHobbsRF]

Yet you whine about it.

is that an example of being constructive hypocrite?

[9RoyHobbsRF]

then just admit you don't know and we can move on

sheesh

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Yet you whine about it.

is that an example of being constructive hypocrite?

NO, it's a observation of you whining.

[Rich the Giants fan]

my belief at the time and to continue to this day was that the reason Torres was chosen was NOT becuase simply he was th eonly choice available and good god we know he wasn't

it was stated by Baker that he thought starting Torres WAS A GOOD CHOICE because...

"me and hank hated facing late season call-ups"

I admit this would be hard for a ML to face a pitcher for the first time, not knowing what his stuff is or what he threw in what situatuons,

but that pair of jacks was trumped by the full house of the game was the most important regular season game in perhaps 10 if not 20 years and a 21 year old rookie with precious little ml experience would not be expected to be able to handle the pressure. a "retread" veteran at least would have been more adept

I believe that to this day

you have already thrown names out there

my answer remains FOR THOSE WHO CANT READ

anybody, but a 21 year old rookie with 1 month ML experience

Umm, since I just recently joined this forum, I have not previously participated in this particular discussion and wouldn't mind if we could get back on topic. Thanks.

Now, as to your "answer" of my question, I have to call cop-out. Can't you come up with a name? You said you disagreed with the decision at the time so you must have had someone else in mind you'd have rather had him start, right? I want a name. Not, "anybody else". That's a pretty lame "answer".

But for now, let's just forget about that. Let's look more closely at the options Dusty had available to him.

Basically it came down to two old veteran retreads on the backsides of their careers (both would make only 25 more starts before retiring), or the organization's top pitching prospect.

Scott Sanderson, retread number 1 (selected off waivers Aug 3 that year), would have been asked to throw on three days rest after tossing 32 pitches in 2 1/3 innings of relief only days earlier.

Jim Deshaies, retread number two (acquired via trade Aug 28), hadn't thrown since September 20 and was thus certainly well rested but had pitched rather like crap in his short tenure, certainly not earning the trust of anyone, fans or coaches alike.

It's extremely unlikely that either pitcher would or could have gone very deep into the game, regardless of whether or not they'd have been able to "handle the pressure", meaning it would have ended up a bullpen game either way.

And as Honus Wagner has pointed out, Torres left losing only 3-0 and the
Giants quickly got one back. It was in fact, the bullpen that let the team down so in all likelihood, the result would have been the same any way Baker had chosen to go. Torres was not the one to blame for that loss. Maybe if you want to point fingers, you should look at Dave Burba and Dave Righetti, both of whom were wacked around for 4 runs in relief.

Seriously, you'd have gone with an old retread that hadn't pitched at all well with the Giants or another that had just pitched in relief and would have gauranteed a bullpen game instead of the organizations top pitching prospect? Honestly, I would have gone with Torres and would do the same again today.

Need I remind you that John Lackey was a 23-year old rookie when he pitched game 7 of the 2002 World Series? I KNOW I don't need to remind you how he did in that game.

[Rich the Giants fan]

it was stated by Baker that he thought starting Torres WAS A GOOD CHOICE because...

"me and hank hated facing late season call-ups"



Oh, and seriously, you can't honestly believe that was ALL that went into Baker and pitching coach Dick Pole's decision making can you?

[KHenry14]

Dusty's statement is a CYA type of answer, as he probably didn't have a good answer.

I remember thinking at the time that i wouldn't have gone with a rookie in that situation. I guess that means I'd have used Deshaies on a hope and a prayer...


But Wags is right, Torres didn't lose the game, Burba did. I really remember being really pissed off at Burba for that performance. But our hitters let down that day too. That was just about the best hitting lineup the Giants have had since the 60's, yet they didn't show up that day.

And let's play nice boys, we are all Giants fans here, save the vitirol for the Dodgers!

[west coast orange and black]

while true that before the game started some fans challenged baker’s pick of torres, it is more evident that TONS of fans were screaming after the game (um, maybe the screaming started during the game for some) and have not ever forgiven baker.

i happen to think that baker selected torres after first agonizing over all of his options. it was a scylla and charybdis situation and baker rolled the dice. that’s johnny b; that’s what you get with baker at the helm.
he did take torres out for authentic dominican food to try to get the rook in a comfort zone, and it’s not as if the loss was not a team loss.

had the giants beaten the hated dodgers that sunday and subsequently beaten the braves in that 1-game playoff, nobody would be sayin’ squat right now.