Should this ball be caught?

[scorekeeper]

If a shortstop is just inside the edge of the outfield grass and approximately 15’ on the SS side of 2nd base, how hard does a ball have to be hit on a line that gets to him right where his throwing hand is and at knee height, before it should be scored a hit rather than an error if the ball goes under his glove. This is at the HS level, and remember this ball is about 140’ from home plate, not like the 90' a 3B would see it.

Personally, I don’t think a ball can be hit hard enough that a starting HSV SS shouldn’t be able to catch the thing. Maybe a substitute or below average player at that position might have trouble with it, but not the average HS SS.

[ipitch]

I'd give an error on that every time, no matter how hard the ball was hit. Pitchers that are 55' away can sometimes react quickly enough to catch line drives, so 140' away shouldn't be that hard.

[HYP]

If a shortstop is just inside the edge of the outfield grass and approximately 15’ on the SS side of 2nd base, how hard does a ball have to be hit on a line that gets to him right where his throwing hand is and at knee height, before it should be scored a hit rather than an error if the ball goes under his glove. This is at the HS level, and remember this ball is about 140’ from home plate, not like the 90' a 3B would see it.

Personally, I don’t think a ball can be hit hard enough that a starting HSV SS shouldn’t be able to catch the thing. Maybe a substitute or below average player at that position might have trouble with it, but not the average HS SS.

I've seen your SS play and I think he should make that play. He is a solid player. That is said without actually seeing the play.

If what you said is what happened, No reason to beleive otherwise, I would have called it an error.

[azmatsfan]

There are a lot of plays that should be made that aren't considered errors in the scorebook. (e.g. For example a misjudged fly ball, or a hit to 1B and no one covers the bag,..) If he gets a glove on it, I'd say it's an error, but if he isn't able to get a glove on it, I'd rule it a hit.

[scorekeeper]

FYI, I scored it an E-6, and so did the official scorer for the game. But, the kid who hit the ball's dad, who is a very good coach was behind me with his camera, and commented that there’s no way that was an error.

Just to keep from having trouble later on, it’s a real PITA to go back and change things, after the inning I got our HC who was returning to the dugout from coaching 3rd. I asked him whether he thought that ball was a hit or an error. He said hit, and since he’s the boss, that’s what I made it.

After the game, I was talking to the 3 other coaches, and got something quite different. They all said it was undoubtedly an error. That’s also the same thing I got from some of our fans when they read the newsletter and saw that it had been scored a hit.

Me, I care, but its not something I’m gonna fight with the HC about. From his perspective, 3rd base coach, all he could see was the ball below the glove. But he couldn’t see that the ball was directly under the glove, and had it been won a half inch, it probably would have knocked down the ball. That’s why I like to sit as close as I can to directly behind the plate.

There are a lot of plays that should be made that aren't considered errors in the scorebook. (e.g. For example a misjudged fly ball, or a hit to 1B and no one covers the bag,..) If he gets a glove on it, I'd say it's an error, but if he isn't able to get a glove on it, I'd rule it a hit.

That’s pretty much the thinking of someone who doesn’t score a lot of games. Unfortunately, it doesn’t match the scoring rules. ;)

Probably the most misunderstood scoring rule has to do with a fielder touching or not touching a ball with his glove. Although I score HS games right now, to be honest, the NFHS rules on errors stink, so I defer to OBR, where things are explained much better.

There’s a lot more to errors, but the below gives a pretty good idea about how things SHOULD be scored.

OBR - 10.12 Errors
An error is a statistic charged against a fielder whose action has assisted the team on offense, as set forth in this Rule 10.12.
(a) The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:
(1) whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) prolongs the time at bat of a batter, prolongs the presence on the bases of a runner or permits a runner to advance one or more bases, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, such fielder deliberately permits a foul fly to fall safe with a runner on third base before two are out in order that the runner on third shall not score after the catch;

Rule 10.12(a)(1) Comment: Slow handling of the ball that does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error. For example, the official scorer shall not charge a fielder with an error if such fielder fields a ground ball cleanly but does not throw to first base in time to retire the batter. It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder's legs or a fly ball falls untouched and, in the scorer's judgment, the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, the official scorer shall charge such fielder with an error. For example, the official scorer shall charge an infielder with an error when a ground ball passes to either side of such infielder if, in the official scorer’s judgment, a fielder at that position making ordinary effort would have fielded such ground ball and retired a runner. The official scorer shall charge an outfielder with an error if such outfielder allows a fly ball to drop to the ground if, in the official scorer’s judgment, an outfielder at that position making ordinary effort would have caught such fly ball. If a throw is low, wide or high, or strikes the ground, and a runner reaches base who otherwise would have been put out by such throw, the official scorer shall charge the player making the throw with an error.
The official scorer shall not score mental mistakes or misjudgments as errors unless a specific rule prescribes otherwise. A fielder’s mental mistake that leads to a physical misplay—such as throwing the ball into the stands or rolling the ball to the pitcher’s mound, mistakenly believing there to be three outs, and thereby allowing a runner or runners to advance—shall not be considered a mental mistake for purposes of this rule and the official scorer shall charge a fielder committing such a mistake with an error. The official scorer shall not charge an error if the pitcher fails to cover first base on a play, thereby allowing a batter-runner to reach first base safely. The official scorer shall not charge an error to a fielder who incorrectly throws to the wrong base on a play.
The official scorer shall charge an error to a fielder who causes another fielder to misplay a ball—for example, by knocking the ball out of the other fielder’s glove. On such a play, when the official scorer charges an error to the interfering fielder, the official scorer shall not charge an error to the fielder with whom the other fielder interfered.

[Ursa Major]

I'd make some allowance if the reason that he didn't get it is that it either knuckled or had extraordinary top spin and broke down. What I'm not sure I follow is what the guy's body was doing during all this -- how far did he have to move? If he could have gotten in front of it and at least knocked it down regardless of spin, knuckling, etc. but decided to not move his feet on the assumption that he could backhand it, it's much more likely to be an error in my book.

[hawkiirock]

major leagues dont follow that and I think it is crap.

Pop ups in the infield that go untouched are ruled hits. same with outfielders misjudging. Infielders get errors on rockets that nick their gloves but outfielders mess up quite often with no error. JMOFYI, I scored it an E-6, and so did the official scorer for the game. But, the kid who hit the ball's dad, who is a very good coach was behind me with his camera, and commented that there’s no way that was an error.

Just to keep from having trouble later on, it’s a real PITA to go back and change things, after the inning I got our HC who was returning to the dugout from coaching 3rd. I asked him whether he thought that ball was a hit or an error. He said hit, and since he’s the boss, that’s what I made it.

After the game, I was talking to the 3 other coaches, and got something quite different. They all said it was undoubtedly an error. That’s also the same thing I got from some of our fans when they read the newsletter and saw that it had been scored a hit.

Me, I care, but its not something I’m gonna fight with the HC about. From his perspective, 3rd base coach, all he could see was the ball below the glove. But he couldn’t see that the ball was directly under the glove, and had it been won a half inch, it probably would have knocked down the ball. That’s why I like to sit as close as I can to directly behind the plate.



That’s pretty much the thinking of someone who doesn’t score a lot of games. Unfortunately, it doesn’t match the scoring rules. ;)

Probably the most misunderstood scoring rule has to do with a fielder touching or not touching a ball with his glove. Although I score HS games right now, to be honest, the NFHS rules on errors stink, so I defer to OBR, where things are explained much better.

There’s a lot more to errors, but the below gives a pretty good idea about how things SHOULD be scored.

OBR - 10.12 Errors
An error is a statistic charged against a fielder whose action has assisted the team on offense, as set forth in this Rule 10.12.
(a) The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:
(1) whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) prolongs the time at bat of a batter, prolongs the presence on the bases of a runner or permits a runner to advance one or more bases, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, such fielder deliberately permits a foul fly to fall safe with a runner on third base before two are out in order that the runner on third shall not score after the catch;

Rule 10.12(a)(1) Comment: Slow handling of the ball that does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error. For example, the official scorer shall not charge a fielder with an error if such fielder fields a ground ball cleanly but does not throw to first base in time to retire the batter. It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder's legs or a fly ball falls untouched and, in the scorer's judgment, the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, the official scorer shall charge such fielder with an error. For example, the official scorer shall charge an infielder with an error when a ground ball passes to either side of such infielder if, in the official scorer’s judgment, a fielder at that position making ordinary effort would have fielded such ground ball and retired a runner. The official scorer shall charge an outfielder with an error if such outfielder allows a fly ball to drop to the ground if, in the official scorer’s judgment, an outfielder at that position making ordinary effort would have caught such fly ball. If a throw is low, wide or high, or strikes the ground, and a runner reaches base who otherwise would have been put out by such throw, the official scorer shall charge the player making the throw with an error.
The official scorer shall not score mental mistakes or misjudgments as errors unless a specific rule prescribes otherwise. A fielder’s mental mistake that leads to a physical misplay—such as throwing the ball into the stands or rolling the ball to the pitcher’s mound, mistakenly believing there to be three outs, and thereby allowing a runner or runners to advance—shall not be considered a mental mistake for purposes of this rule and the official scorer shall charge a fielder committing such a mistake with an error. The official scorer shall not charge an error if the pitcher fails to cover first base on a play, thereby allowing a batter-runner to reach first base safely. The official scorer shall not charge an error to a fielder who incorrectly throws to the wrong base on a play.
The official scorer shall charge an error to a fielder who causes another fielder to misplay a ball—for example, by knocking the ball out of the other fielder’s glove. On such a play, when the official scorer charges an error to the interfering fielder, the official scorer shall not charge an error to the fielder with whom the other fielder interfered.

[scorekeeper]

I'd make some allowance if the reason that he didn't get it is that it either knuckled or had extraordinary top spin and broke down. What I'm not sure I follow is what the guy's body was doing during all this -- how far did he have to move? If he could have gotten in front of it and at least knocked it down regardless of spin, knuckling, etc. but decided to not move his feet on the assumption that he could backhand it, it's much more likely to be an error in my book.

He didn’t have to move at all. He just turned to his right to backhand the ball, and it went right under his glove. No stretching, no diving, and all he did with his feet was spread them apart to get a better base. The ball never got outside of his right foot.

I don’t know if he could have gotten completely in front of it, but in all honesty, there really wasn’t any reason to do that. It was a line drive. It was hit solidly, but made it into the OF grass before it hit the ground, so you know it was at least a foot or two above the ground when it went by the SS.

[Oilcanbland]

Sounds like what you are describing would normally be conisdered a hit, although it is definitely a play that should be made. I don't know why there is this assumption that a ball has to bounce off the glove to be an error, but it seems that's usually the case.

I would agree that it depends a lot on how playable the ball was. Knuckling, or heavy top spin would affect it as well.

[Drill]

He didn’t have to move at all. He just turned to his right to backhand the ball, and it went right under his glove. No stretching, no diving, and all he did with his feet was spread them apart to get a better base. The ball never got outside of his right foot.

I don’t know if he could have gotten completely in front of it, but in all honesty, there really wasn’t any reason to do that. It was a line drive. It was hit solidly, but made it into the OF grass before it hit the ground, so you know it was at least a foot or two above the ground when it went by the SS.



If he is that good it only sounds like the ball got the jump on him, caused by a lot of different thinks that happen during a play. But since I don't know the player or saw the play, I would say hard hit and give the batter the hit.

To me this sounds like the batter has been picking up tips from this web site. B1


IMHO,

drill

[AgentX]

If a ground ball goes through a fielder's legs or a fly ball falls untouched and, in the scorer's judgment, the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, the official scorer shall charge such fielder with an error.

This is a judgment call, and one that should be the province of the scorer.

Judgment calls are integral to the game. Umpires make them for a living, not just on balls and strikes, but also on infield fly rulings, bang-bang plays, and even whether or not a batter makes adequate effort to avoid being hit by a pitch.

Just like umpires are expected to be familiar enough with the game at the level they are officiating to determine what "normal effort" is for an infield fly, so should the scorer.

I think it was a mistake to ask anyone other than the official scorer whether they thought it was an error. And even the official scorer will sometimes get it wrong. It's a judgment call, and you strike me as someone who has very good judgment.

[scorekeeper]

major leagues dont follow that and I think it is crap.

Pop ups in the infield that go untouched are ruled hits. same with outfielders misjudging. Infielders get errors on rockets that nick their gloves but outfielders mess up quite often with no error. JMO

I hate to say it, but you don’t’ know what your talking about. The rule I quoted is from the Official Baseball Rules used by MLB and MiLB.

Not all pop ups in the infield or outfield that go untouched are rules hits. There are variances in scoring, even at the MLB level, just like there’s variances in umpiring, hitting, pitching, and managing! That doesn’t mean there aren’t rules and other guidelines.

A large part of scoring is judgment on the part of the scorer, and at the ML level, the scorer will be influenced by the guy who signs his check. The same thing happens at every level, except that the knowledge of the rules isn’t nearly as good, the judgment isn’t nearly as good, and more often than not, although there’s no paycheck, the familial bond is ever so much stronger!

Go to MLB.com and then to the rules. Then go to rule 10.00 and read every word of it. Make sure when you see something like “ORDINARY EFFORT”, you go to Rule 2.00 and read its definition. Also, make sure when you see a reference, you go to that reference and read it too. You might just learn something.

[scorekeeper]

Sounds like what you are describing would normally be conisdered a hit, although it is definitely a play that should be made. I don't know why there is this assumption that a ball has to bounce off the glove to be an error, but it seems that's usually the case.

That assumption is because for many many years, and today, most people didn’t know the scoring rules! Also a large part of it was that although the phrase “ORDINARY EFFORT”, which is the main criteria for judging something an error was there, it had no definition. Two years ago that changed.

MLB added the definition for “ORDINARY EFFORT, and sure made scoring easier. Unfortunately, although in time it will, that rule wasn’t changed in any other rule set I know of.

OBR Rule 2.00 - ORDINARY EFFORT is the effort that a fielder of average skill at a position in that league or classification of leagues should exhibit on a play, with due consideration given to the condition of the field and weather conditions.
Rule 2.00 (Ordinary Effort) Comment: This standard, called for several times in the Official Scoring Rules (e.g., Rules 10.05(a)(3), 10.05(a)(4), 10.05(a)(6), 10.05(b)(3) (Base Hits); 10.08(b) (Sacrifices); 10.12(a)(1) Comment, 10.12(d)(2) (Errors); and 10.13(a), 10.13(b) (Wild Pitches and Passed Balls)) and in the Official Baseball Rules (e.g., Rule 2.00 (Infield Fly)), is an objective standard in regard to any particular fielder. In other words, even if a fielder makes his best effort, if that effort falls short of what an average fielder at that position in that league would have made in a situation, the official scorer should charge that fielder with an error.

I would agree that it depends a lot on how playable the ball was. Knuckling, or heavy top spin would affect it as well.

Agreed. And taking that into consideration, along with all the other factors, it was my judgment that the average HS SS would have made the play. Result. E-6.

[ipitch]

Agreed. And taking that into consideration, along with all the other factors, it was my judgment that the average HS SS would have made the play. Result. E-6.

Except you said that you changed it to a hit! Instead of just marking down what the "boss" says it is, why not educate him a bit?

[scorekeeper]

Except you said that you changed it to a hit! Instead of just marking down what the "boss" says it is, why not educate him a bit?

Look. I have no child on the team. I take nothing other than a hot dog and a coke at home games for compensation, so I have no reason other than wanting to do something I’m good at as a volunteer. I’ve been round and round with the guy for 3 years over this stuff, but when push comes down to shove, he’s the guy in charge of the program.

I’ve sent him rules, rule interpretations from people who know what they’re doing, and even videos to get him to change. Although he is a very good coach, in my mind he’s exactly like so many people who THINK that because they know a lot about coaching, skills, talent, game conduct rules, or have played the game at a high level, that they are also expert at scoring. Like most others, he’s flat out wrong and I’ve told him so. But, he’s still the boss, and what he says goes.

Like so many others, he thinks there’s nothing more to it than that his opinion differs from mine, but there’s more to it. He really believes he knows what constitutes an error, a passed ball, or a hit, but I assure you, he doesn’t understand that there are rules that the judgment is bounded by.

Also, like many other coaches, he honestly doesn’t believe that me watching a game from behind the plate to do nothing other than score it, gives me a much better opportunity to do that, than a coach in the 3rd base coach’s box, or in the dugout calling pitches, writing down notes, moving players around on defense, and talking to players and coaches. I’ve said for many years, that a scorekeeper doesn’t see the same game everyone else does because s/he is looking at it from a totally different perspective.

But waddayagonnado with an old war horse who doesn’t just think he’s right, but knows it? I don’t like it, especially when I’m positive I’m right, but I’m not gonna get into any more public or private debates with the guy.