View Full Version : 4 outs - 1 inning?
RodCarew
04-14-2009, 01:39 PM
Anyone see the Dodgers/Diamondbacks game the other day.. there was 1 out - runners on 2nd and 3rd ... batter lined out to the pitcher - who turned and threw to 2nd baseman... instead of stepping on the base, the 2nd baseman decided to tag out the runner returning to 2nd base.. essentially taking away the force out and making it a "run down".. the runner who was on 3rd base crossed home plate before the player was tagged out at 2nd.
The Diamondbacks assumed the run did not count and left the field ... . Had the Diamondbacks appealed while they were on the field, they would have recorded 4 outs and the run would not have counted.
Weird rule.
Dodgers won 3-1
Macker
04-14-2009, 03:56 PM
Whether the fielder ran down the runner or touched the base, it's not a force. It's a time play. While the fielder probably had a better chance to prevent the run by stepping on the base, he would still need to do so before the runner touched home. Otherwise, the 4th-out appeal could be used. I'm assuming the runner on third didn't tag up after the lineout?
Baseball gLove
04-14-2009, 04:44 PM
Whether the fielder ran down the runner or touched the base, it's not a force. It's a time play. While the fielder probably had a better chance to prevent the run by stepping on the base, he would still need to do so before the runner touched home. Otherwise, the 4th-out appeal could be used. I'm assuming the runner on third didn't tag up after the lineout?
Timming rule does not apply to any force outs.
Macker
04-14-2009, 05:20 PM
The play in question is not a force out. There are no force outs when the batted ball is caught for an out.
sid17
04-14-2009, 07:21 PM
The runner on third didn't tag on the play. Had Felipe Lopez, the 2nd baseman at the time, stepped on second then the third out would have been recorded before the runner touched the plate.
There was a play similar to this a couple of years ago. I want to say the Orioles were involved. I remember the play was almost exactly the same as the afore mentioned one, but the run was not put on the scoreboard until a couple of innings after it happened.
jbooth
04-14-2009, 07:32 PM
Anyone see the Dodgers/Diamondbacks game the other day.. there was 1 out - runners on 2nd and 3rd ... batter lined out to the pitcher - who turned and threw to 2nd baseman... instead of stepping on the base, the 2nd baseman decided to tag out the runner returning to 2nd base.. essentially taking away the force out and making it a "run down".. the runner who was on 3rd base crossed home plate before the player was tagged out at 2nd.
The Diamondbacks assumed the run did not count and left the field ... . Had the Diamondbacks appealed while they were on the field, they would have recorded 4 outs and the run would not have counted.
Weird rule.
Dodgers won 3-1
Man, you got that all wrong. An out for failure to retouch is not a force play. When the batter is put out (he was out on the caught line drive) there CAN'T be any force plays. A force play is created when a batter becomes a runner. The batter was put out.
This is a "time play". If a runner touches the plate before the time of the third out, his run counts. Touching the base, or tagging the runner makes him out, but the time of the out is when the base, or the runner is touched.
rule 7.10 and 4.09
jbooth
04-14-2009, 07:35 PM
Whether the fielder ran down the runner or touched the base, it's not a force. It's a time play. While the fielder probably had a better chance to prevent the run by stepping on the base, he would still need to do so before the runner touched home. Otherwise, the 4th-out appeal could be used. I'm assuming the runner on third didn't tag up after the lineout?
Where is the 4th out appeal? That could only happen if both runners failed to tag up. In that case, they could appeal R3 for the 4th out, and prevent his run. If R3 tagged up legally and scored before R2 was put out, there's nothing the defense can do.
jbooth
04-14-2009, 07:37 PM
Timming rule does not apply to any force outs.
There were no force plays in the play described. The batter lined out. All forces are removed when the batter is put out. It's not a force out, just because you only have to touch the base to record the out. That's an appeal, and the timing of the appeal determines whether a run counts or not.
Macker
04-14-2009, 08:09 PM
Where is the 4th out appeal? That could only happen if both runners failed to tag up. In that case, they could appeal R3 for the 4th out, and prevent his run. If R3 tagged up legally and scored before R2 was put out, there's nothing the defense can do.
You don't need both runners fail to tag up to have a fourth out appeal. When I wrote that, I didn't know for sure whether the runner on third tagged properly. (I didn't see the play, and the opening post didn't specify whether the runner on 3rd tagged up, but it would seem he didn't.) The defense could have appealed the runner at third for the 4th out, which would replace the 3rd out.
Baseball gLove
04-14-2009, 08:09 PM
There were no force plays in the play described. The batter lined out. All forces are removed when the batter is put out. It's not a force out, just because you only have to touch the base to record the out. That's an appeal, and the timing of the appeal determines whether a run counts or not.
Yeah I misread.
coach scotty
04-14-2009, 08:17 PM
The runner at third did not tag up.
jbooth
04-15-2009, 12:12 AM
You don't need both runners fail to tag up to have a fourth out appeal. When I wrote that, I didn't know for sure whether the runner on third tagged properly. (I didn't see the play, and the opening post didn't specify whether the runner on 3rd tagged up, but it would seem he didn't.) The defense could have appealed the runner at third for the 4th out, which would replace the 3rd out.
You're correct. If R2 had tagged up, and R3 had not, but R2 was tagged out for the 3rd out, they could still appeal R3 and take that out instead of the tag out of R2.
Ursa Major
04-15-2009, 12:14 AM
Here's a link to two MLB.com videos that sort of show what happened. Boneheadedness on both sides, although Ethier at that point had nothing much to lose by continuing to run, I guess.
http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=4119281&c_id=la
You'd think that there would have been someone on the D'backs' side who'd heard of the "fourth out" rule, though, wouldn'tcha?
KCGHOST
04-15-2009, 08:13 AM
To me it was one of those natural happenings. Everybody reacted like you would expect. The runner at third just kept running since he could see the third out was going to be made elsewhere. The defenders, after the third out was recorded, just headed to the dugout. Once they got there they were no longer permitted to appeal that the runner from third didn't tag up.
Since nobody on the D'Backs realized the subtlety of the rules in this case they stay on the field. I am sort of surprised that the umpires got the rule right. Not defaming them or anything. It just isn't a situation that occurs very often.
jbooth
04-15-2009, 12:13 PM
To me it was one of those natural happenings. Everybody reacted like you would expect. The runner at third just kept running since he could see the third out was going to be made elsewhere. The defenders, after the third out was recorded, just headed to the dugout. Once they got there they were no longer permitted to appeal that the runner from third didn't tag up.
Since nobody on the D'Backs realized the subtlety of the rules in this case they stay on the field. I am sort of surprised that the umpires got the rule right. Not defaming them or anything. It just isn't a situation that occurs very often.
Knowing when a run counts or not, is a pretty basic rules situation. I doubt that any MLB ump would get this play wrong. They practice the mechanics on this type of play, until they are blue in the face, in training.
Whenever a 3rd out time play is possible, they give each other a signal before the pitch, to remind each other to watch for this. Counting whether a run scores or not, is their job, I hope they would get it right 100% of the time.
Knowing when a run counts or not, is a pretty basic rules situation. I doubt that any MLB ump would get this play wrong. They practice the mechanics on this type of play, until they are blue in the face, in training.
Whenever a 3rd out time play is possible, they give each other a signal before the pitch, to remind each other to watch for this. Counting whether a run scores or not, is their job, I hope they would get it right 100% of the time.
jbooth,
not to get off the topic of MLB ump but would this be the same rule for all levels of play? Mostly HS. Do you think that a HS ump would know this ruling?
Macker
04-15-2009, 02:35 PM
not to get off the topic of MLB ump but would this be the same rule for all levels of play? Mostly HS. Do you think that a HS ump would know this ruling?
I once saw this play in a high school state final. Bottom of 7th, runners on 1st & 3rd, 1 out. Fly to short right, runner on 1st doubled off for 3rd out. Team starts going nuts thinking they won state championship. Runner on third legally tagged & scored prior to third out. Umps had to break up the celebration with the bad news, ignorant fans go nuts, and the other team wins in extra innings.
Another high school game, playoff but not final -- runners on 1st & 3rd, 1 out. Bloop to right. Second baseman makes diving catch. Runner on first was dancing off bag more & more as it seemed ball would drop. When it was caught, he was a dead duck. Runner on third tagged and scored prior to third out. Umpires were bewildered when coach noted runner on third scored prior to third out. Plate ump said it was a force at first, so it didn't matter. Umps talked. I believe base ump knew the rule, but he had been tied up with the runner off first. Plate ump then said run didn't count. After the game, he said he didn't know whether runner scored or not. The team that lost this run lost game by one run.
Anyway, yes, even high school umpires should know this rule. What's sad is that most of the players and many coaches don't know the rules.
RodCarew
04-15-2009, 02:53 PM
Man, you got that all wrong. An out for failure to retouch is not a force play. When the batter is put out (he was out on the caught line drive) there CAN'T be any force plays. A force play is created when a batter becomes a runner. The batter was put out.
This is a "time play". If a runner touches the plate before the time of the third out, his run counts. Touching the base, or tagging the runner makes him out, but the time of the out is when the base, or the runner is touched.
rule 7.10 and 4.09
If the D-backs had appealed to umpires that Ethier had left third base early — which he had — then umps would have ruled it the fourth out of the inning and the run would have been taken off the board. The D-backs never appealed because they didn't think they needed to. The defense just left the field after Pierre was tagged, incorrectly thinking that the inning was over without the run at home counting.
from yahoo sports
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Rare-four-out-play-helps-Dodgers-down-Diamondb?urn=mlb,155380
Is that wrong?
jbooth
04-15-2009, 07:41 PM
If the D-backs had appealed to umpires that Ethier had left third base early — which he had — then umps would have ruled it the fourth out of the inning and the run would have been taken off the board. The D-backs never appealed because they didn't think they needed to. The defense just left the field after Pierre was tagged, incorrectly thinking that the inning was over without the run at home counting.
from yahoo sports
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Rare-four-out-play-helps-Dodgers-down-Diamondb?urn=mlb,155380
Is that wrong?
I was referring to this statement that you made;
instead of stepping on the base, the 2nd baseman decided to tag out the runner returning to 2nd base.. essentially taking away the force out and making it a "run down"..
There was no force out to take away. All forces were removed when the line drive was caught. When a runner fails to retouch on a caught fly, he can be put out by being tagged, or by touching the base that he failed to retouch. Neither method is a force out.
Ursa Major
04-16-2009, 03:26 AM
The reason that this situation should have been comprehended by the D'backs is that this is one of the glorious quirks of baseball rules -- delicious to any baseball geek. Heck, it's one of the great bar bets of all time -- "I'll bet you I can set up a situation where a team needs to get four outs in an inning to get the other team out without scoring." ((The best bar bet? That Reno, Nevada is further West than Los Angeles. Check it out on a map... it's true.))