1945 Best of Baseball Election

[jalbright]

This is our tenth election in this project. The entire rules follow.

This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EST April 24, 2009.

The prior election, and the ballots of the 1943 voters, are in this thread (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=88862)

[jalbright]

Rules

1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance, or only the first vote will be counted. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

9) Each election will run for two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

10) No one is ineligible, nor are players from any league ineligible. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project. Candidates will not lose eligiblity after becoming eligible except by being elected as either a contributor or player.

11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration.

14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, take those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

20) I reserve the right to hold both 19th century and Negro League special elections in 2000 if we don't have a sufficient number in those categories by then. These elections probably will be limited to voters I feel are appropriately versed on the group of players to be considered. I do wish to only use this as a last resort, however, and only to ensure that those groups received what I regard as at least adequate bare minimum representation. I do not plan on sharing with you what I consider to meet those bare minimum standards, but I think that the numbers I am thinking of are well below the number of candidates that well informed observers believe are well qualified candidates from each group.

21) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

22) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread

[jalbright]

The players who become eligible in 1945 are:


Bluege , Ossie
Bottomley , Jim
Critz , Hughie
Earnshaw , George
Elliott , Jumbo
Goslin , Goose
Grantham , George
Grove , Lefty
Hartnett , Gabby
Johnson , Judy
Kamm , Willie
Lyons , Ted
McManus , Marty
Pruett , Hub
Suttles , Mule
Wilson , Hack
Wilson , Jimmie


There is only one contributor candidate becoming eligible in 1945, Grantland Rice

[jalbright]

The 1944 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the 1944 election:


player…………….. votes pts
Barnes , Ross 11 101
Ward , John M. 12 96
Hines , Paul 11 86
Sisler , George 14 80
Magee , Sherry 8 72
Clarke , Fred 12 68
Collins , Jimmy 11 67
Wheat , Zack 9 53
Jackson , Joe 5 50
Vance , Dazzy 10 45
Traynor , Pie 5 34
Radbourn , C 8 31
Bennett , C 4 30
Keeler , Willie 4 27
Stovey , H 5 25
Thompson , S 4 25
Groh , Heinie 3 24
Carey , Max 3 23
Sutton , Ezra 4 22
Terry , Bill 5 21
Flick , Elmer 3 19
McPhee , Bid 3 19
Maranville , R 3 18
Waddell , Rube 4 17
Start , Joe 2 15
Caruthers , B 2 14
Galvin , Pud 3 14
Grant , Frank 3 14
Johnson , HR 2 13
Hoyt, Waite 1 12
Joss , Addie 1 11
Bresnahan , R 3 10
Coveleski , S 2 10
Roush , Edd 2 10
Chance , Frank 1 8
Browning , P 2 5
Gore , George 1 5
Pennock, Herb 1 5
Tinker, Joe 1 5
Evers , Johnny 1 4
Jennings , H 1 3
Grimes , B 1 2
Hill , Pete.....2 2
Kling, Johnny 1 2
Pearce , Dickey 1 2
Duffy , Hugh 1 1
Glasscock , J 1 1
Kelley , Joe 1 1


The 1944 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the 1944 election:


contributor… votes pts
Creighton , Jim 10 37
Cartwright , A 9 36
Klem, Bill.. 15 32
Richter , F 10 26
Barrow , Ed 5 13
Landis , K 6 13
Commiskey , C 2 9
Clarke , Fred 2 8
Reach , A. J. 3 7
Doubleday , A 2 6
Dunn , Jack 2 6
Taylor , C. I. 2 6
Spink, Albert 2 5
Hanlon , Ned 1 3
Caylor , O. P. 1 2
Conlan , C 1 2
Pearce, Dickey 1 2
Ward , John M. 1 2


I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.

[jalbright]

Members of the Best of Baseball Hall

Players


Pete Alexander
Cap Anson
Frank Baker
Dan Brouthers
Mordecai Brown
Jesse Burkett
Oscar Charleston
John Clarkson
Ty Cobb
Eddie Collins
Roger Connor
Sam Crawford
Bill Dahlen
George Davis
Ed Delahanty
Buck Ewing
Frankie Frisch
Lou Gehrig
Billy Hamilton
Harry Heilmann
Rogers Hornsby
Walter Johnson
Tim Keefe
King Kelly
Nap LaJoie
Pop Lloyd
Christy Mathewson
Kid Nichols
Jim O'Rourke
Eddie Plank
Bullet Joe Rogan
Amos Rusie
Babe Ruth
Louis Santop
Tris Speaker
Cristobal Torriente
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh
Deacon White
Smoky Joe Williams
George Wright
Cy Young


Contributors


Doc Adams
Henry Chadwick
Rube Foster
William Hulbert
Ban Johnson
Connie Mack
John McGraw
Al Spalding
Harry Wright

[jalbright]

The complete list of eligible players:


Adams , Babe
Adams , Sparky
Altrock , Nick
Archer , Jimmy
Arlett , Buzz
Austin , Jimmy
Bancroft , Dave
Barnes , Ross
Barry , Jack
Battin , Joe
Beaumont , Ginger
Beckley , Jake
Bender , Chief
Bennett , Charlie
Benton , Larry
Bergen , Marty
Bigbee , Carson
Bishop , Max
Blades , Ray
Blue , Lu
Bluege , Ossie
Bodie , Ping
Boley , Joe
Bond , Tommy
Bottomley , Jim
Bradley , Bill
Breitenstein , Ted
Bresnahan , Roger
Browning , Pete
Burns , George J.
Bush , Joe
Bush , Donie
Cadore , Leon
Camnitz , Howie
Carey , Max
Carrigan , Bill
Caruthers , Bob
Chance , Frank
Chapman , Ray
Chase , Hal
Chesbro , Jack
Childs , Cupid
Cicotte , Eddie
Clarke , Fred
Coakley , Andy
Collins , Jimmy
Collins , Shano
Combs , Earle
Conroy , Wid
Coombs , Jack
Cooper , Andy
Cooper , Wilbur
Coveleski , Stan
Crandall , Doc
Cravath , Gavvy
Creighton , Jim
Criger , Lou
Critz , Hughie
Cross , Lave
Crowder , Al
Cruise , Walt
Cummings , Candy
Cuyler , Kiki
Daubert , Jake
Davis , Harry
Dinneen , Bill
Doak , Bill
Donlin , Mike
Donovan , Bill
Dooin , Red
Doyle , Jack
Doyle , Larry
Duffy , Hugh
Dugan , Joe
Dunlap , Fred
Dykes , Jimmy
Earnshaw , George
Ehmke , Howard
Elberfeld , Kid
Elliott , Jumbo
Ens , Jewel
Evers , Johnny
Faber , Red
Falkenberg , Cy
Fletcher , Art
Flick , Elmer
Fonseca , Lew
Foster , Eddie
Fraser , Chick
Galvin , Pud
Glasscock , Jack
Gleason , Kid
Gonzalez , Mike
Gore , George
Goslin , Goose
Gowdy , Hank
Grant , Eddie
Grant , Frank
Grantham , George
Griffith , Clark
Grimes , Burleigh
Grimm , Charlie
Groh , Heinie
Grove , Lefty
Hahn , Noodles
Haines , Jesse
Hargrave , Bubbles
Harris , Bucky
Hartnett , Gabby
Herzog , Buck
Hill , Pete
Hinchman , Bill
Hines , Paul
Hooper , Harry
Hoyt , Waite
Huggins , Miller
Irwin , Charlie
Jackman , Will
Jackson , Joe
Jennings , Hughie
Johnson , Home Run
Johnson , Judy
Jones , Charley
Jones , Fielder
Jones , Sam P.
Jordan , Tim
Joss , Addie
Judge , Joe
Kamm , Willie
Keeler , Willie
Kelley , Joe
Kerr , Dickie
Killefer , Bill
Kilroy , Matt
Kling , Johnny
Knabe , Otto
Kremer , Ray
Lange , Bill
Larkin , Henry
Latham , Arlie
Leach , Freddy
Leach , Tommy
Leever , Sam
Lewis , Duffy
Lobert , Hans
Long , Herman
Lowe , Bobby
Lundy , Dick
Luque , Dolf
Lyons , Denny
Lyons , Ted
Magee , Sherry
Maranville , Rabbit
Marberry , Firpo
Marquard , Rube
Mathews , Bobby
Mays , Carl
McAleer , Jimmy
McCarthy , Tommy
McCormick , Jim
McGinnity , Joe
McGowan , Bill
McInnis , Stuffy
McLean , Larry
McManus , Marty
McPhee , Bid
McVey , Cal
Meadows , Lee
Mendez , Jose
Meusel , Bob
Milan , Clyde
Miller , Bing
Miller , Dots
Miller , Hack
Moore , Dobie
Moran , Pat
Mostil , Johnny
Mullane , Tony
Murphy , Danny
Murray , Red
Nehf , Art
O'Doul , Lefty
Oeschger , Joe
O'Farrell , Bob
O'Leary , Charlie
Oms , Alejandro
O'Neill , Steve
O'Neill , Tip
Orr , Dave
Pabor , Charlie
Paskert , Dode
Pearce , Dickey
Peckinpaugh , Roger
Peitz , Heinie
Pennock , Herb
Perdue , Hub
Perkins , Cy
Phillippe , Deacon
Pike , Lip
Pipp , Wally
Poles , Spotswood
Pruett , Hub
Quinn , Jack
Radbourn , Charlie
Raymond , Bugs
Redding , Dick
Remsen , Jack
Rice , Sam
Richardson , Hardy
Ring , Jimmy
Ritchey , Claude
Rixey , Eppa
Robertson , Dave
Rommel , Eddie
Root , Charlie
Roush , Edd
Rucker , Nap
Rudolph , Dick
Ruel , Muddy
Ryan , Jimmy
Schacht , Al
Schaefer , Germany
Schalk , Ray
Schang , Wally
Schreckengost , Ossie
Schulte , Frank
Scott , Everett
Scott , Jack
Severeid , Hank
Sewell , Joe
Seymour , Cy
Sheckard , Jimmy
Sherdel , Bill
Shocker , Urban
Sisler , George
Smith , Earl
Smith , Sherry
Sparks , Tully
Stahl , Jake
Start , Joe
Steinfeldt , Harry
Stephenson , Riggs
Stovey , Harry
Street , Gabby
Suttles , Mule
Sutton , Ezra
Sweeney , Bill
Tannehill , Jesse
Taylor , Ben
Tenney , Fred
Terry , Bill
Thomas , Ira
Thompson , Sam
Tiernan , Mike
Tinker , Joe
Toney , Fred
Traynor , Pie
Turner , Terry
Uhle , George
Van Haltren , George
Vance , Dazzy
Veach , Bobby
Waddell , Rube
Walberg , Rube
Wallace , Bobby
Wambsganss , Bill
Ward , John M.
Warfield , Frank
Welch , Mickey
Wheat , Zack
White , Sol
White , Will
Whitehill , Earl
Williams , Cy
Williams , Ken
Williamson , Ned
Willis , Vic
Wilson , Hack
Wilson , Jimmie
Witt , Whitey
Wood , Joe
Yerkes , Steve
Youngs , Ross
Zachary , Tom
Zimmer , Chief


The complete list of eligible contributors:


Abe , Iso
Bancroft , Frank
Barrow , Ed
Bulkely , Morgan
Cartwright , Alexander
Caylor , O. P.
Chance , Frank
Clarke , Fred
Commiskey , Charlie
Conlan , Charles
Connolly , Tom
Cooper , Andy
Creighton , Jim
Cummings , Candy
Dinneen , Bill
Doubleday , Abner
Dreyfuss , Barney
Dunn , Jack
Elias , Al Munro
Foster , John B.
Fullerton , Hugh
Gleason , Kid
Griffith , Clark
Hanlon , Ned
Hillerich , John
Huggins , Miller
Jennings , Hughie
Klem , Bill
Landis , Kenesaw
Lardner , Ring
Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
McCarthy , Tommy
Mendez , Jose
Mills , A. G.
Moran , Pat
Mutrie , Jim
Navin , Frank
Norworth, Jack
Osborn , Frank
Reach , A. J.
Rice, Grantland
Richter , Francis
Robinson , Wilbert
Ruppert , Jacob
Selee , Frank
Shibe , Ben
Spink, Albert
Stallings , George
Taylor , C. I.
Thayer , Ernest
Ward , John M.
Warfield , Frank
White , Sol
Wilkinson , J. L.
Wilson , Horace

[jalbright]

My ballot:

Players
1. Lefty Grove
2. John M. Ward
3. Mule Suttles
4. Sherry Magee
5. Zack Wheat
6. Paul Hines
7. Fred Clarke
8. Gabby Hartnett
9. Dazzy Vance
10. Harry Stovey
11. Goose Goslin
12. Ted Lyons

Contributors
1. Jim Creighton
2. Bill Klem
3. Francis Richter
4. Ed Barrow
5. Kennesaw Landis

Shuffled my contributor list a bit, and added Barrow to replace the elected Hulbert. The depth of the newcomer player class caused Grimes and Galvin to disappear for a while. They will eventually return.

[Domenic]

Players

01. Lefty Grove
02. Zack Wheat
03. Joe Jackson
04. Sherry Magee
05. Gabby Hartnett
06. Dazzy Vance
07. Fred Clarke
08. Pie Traynor
09. John M. Ward
10. George Sisler
11. Goose Goslin
12. Rabbit Marranville

Contributors

01. Jim Creighton
02. Bill Klem
03. Ed Barrow
04. Francis Richter
05. Kennesaw Landis

[Paul Wendt]

Anyone who thinks that none of us agree on anything, check out those two ballots!

That makes me feel good about leaning to Hanlon and Comiskey rather than Barrow and Landis ;-) but I'll mull the contributors for a while longer. Meanwhile here is another early take on the players. Grove and Hartnett are elite players. I'm not sure about Suttles and McPhee but here they are for now. Goslin and Lyons seem to me good players behind other good players.

Players
1 Grove
2 Hartnett
3 Clarke
4 Hines
5 Ward
6 Barnes
7 Johnson G
8 Gore
9 Groh
10 Colllins J
11 Suttles
12 McPhee

[Sockeye]

Players

1. Lefty Grove
2. Joe Jackson
3. Fred Clarke
4. Zack Wheat
5. Goose Goslin
6. Sherry Magee
7. Willie Keeler
8. Sam Thompson
9. Elmer Flick
10. Bill Terry
11. Harry Stovey
12. Pete Browning

Contributors

1. J. Creighton
2. A. Cartwright
3. B. Klem
4. F. Richter
5. E. Barrow

[Ubiquitous]

1. Lefty Grove
2. Sherry Magee
3. Pie Traynor
4. Heinie Groh
5. Gabby Hartnett
6. Max Carey
7. Frank Chance
8. Rabbit Marranville
9. Bid McPhee
10. Joe Tinker
11. Johnny Evers
12. Roger Bresnahan



1. Charles Comiskey
2. Ed Barrow
3. Jack Dunn
4. A.J. Reach
5. Bill Klem

[leecemark]

1) Lefty Grove
2) Ross Barnes
3) John Ward
4) Paul Hines
5) Fred Clarke
6) Gabby Hartnett
7) Jimmy Collins
8) Charlie Bennett
9) Dazzy Vance
10) Charlie Radbourne
11) Rube Waddell
12] Mule Suttles - I honestly have no idea whether this should be Mule or Goose, but Suttles gets the benefit of the doubt



1) Alexander Cartwright
2) Francis Richter
3) Dickey Pearce
4) Commissioner Landis
5) Bill Klem

[Brad Harris]

Players
1. Lefty Grove
2. Mule Suttles
3. Paul Hines
4. Gabby Hartnett
5. John Montgomery Ward
6. Goose Goslin
7. Sherry Magee
8. George Sisler
9. Fred Clarke
10. Edd Roush
11. Dazzy Vance
12. Heinie Groh

I've put Groh ahead of Traynor, Collins and Sutton at third now. Zack Wheat was the 13th man on this ballot for me.

Contributors
1. Francis Richter - best writer on the board
2. Ed Barrow - best executive on the board
3. Alfred H. Spink
4. Bill Klem
5. Frank Selee - best manager on the board

[Dogdaze]

Players:

1. Lefty Grove
2. Gabby Hartnett
3. John M. Ward
4. Jimmy Collins
5. Mule Suttles
6. Ross Barnes
7. George Sisler
8. Sam Thompson
9. Old Hoss Radbourn
10. Paul Hines
11. Zack Wheat
12. Frank Grant

Contributors:

1. Francis Richter
2. Jim Creighton
3. C. I. Taylor
4. Bill Klem
5. Ed Barrow

[Tiboreau]

1. Lefty Grove
2. Gabby Hartnett
3. Ted Lyons
4. Paul Hines
5. Dazzy Vance
6. Elmer Flick
7. Ross Barnes
8. Grant "Home Run" Johnson
9. Stan Coveleski
10. Fred Clarke
11. Hughie Jennings
12. Charley "Old Hoss" Radbourn

[AstrosFan]

1. Lefty Grove
2. John M. Ward
3. Jimmy Collins
4. Gabby Hartnett
5. Max Carey
6. Dazzy Vance
7. Fred Clarke
8. Paul Hines
9. Mule Suttles
10. Sherry Magee
11. Goose Goslin
12. Ted Lyons

Contributors:

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Francis Richter
3. Jim Creighton
4. Bill Klem
5. Kenesaw Landis

Jim, I think you have William Hulbert listed in both the eligibles and HOFers.

[Brad Harris]

Jim, I think you have William Hulbert listed in both the eligibles and HOFers.
Doc Adams, too. ;)

[jalbright]

Thanks for catching the Adams and Hulbert errors (as still eligible as contributors). I had been away for a couple of days and did this in haste, and what resulted was there for all to see. Sorry about that, but glad you folks keep me on my toes. Those errors have been fixed.

We now have a quorum on the player side, but are still two short of that mark on the contributor side.

[AstrosFan]

Thanks for catching the Adams and Hulbert errors (as still eligible as contributors). I had been away for a couple of days and did this in haste, and what resulted was there for all to see. Sorry about that, but glad you folks keep me on my toes.

If I couldn't keep you on your toes, I would have no purpose in life :D

[BlueBlood]

1. Lefty Grove
2. Charlie Bennett
3. Paul Hines
4. Mule Suttles
5. Zack Wheat
6. Pud Galvin
7. Jimmy Collins
8. Rube Waddell
9. Ross Barnes
10. John M Ward
11. Ezra Sutton
12. Fred Clarke

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Jim Creighton
3. Bill Klem
4. Kennesaw Landis
5. Francis Richter

[jalbright]

If I couldn't keep you on your toes, I would have no purpose in life :D

I sincerely hope your life is better than that. If not, you have my deepest sympathies. ;) Besides, I have a seven and a half year old to drive me nuts and keep my on my toes and be adorable all in one.

[Brad Harris]

BlueBlood -

With the quality of - both "modern" and 19th Century - stars hanging around the ballot, I'm curious what your case for Charlie Bennett ranking so highly is? I'm not even sure I'd put Buck Ewing in the #2 spot on this ballot if he were still available.

Mind humoring me with a persuasive argument?

[PVNICK]

1. Lefty Grove
2. George Sisler
3. Monte Ward
4. Gabby Hartnett
5. Jimmy Collins
6. Hoss Radbourne
7. Pie Traynor
8. Bob Caruthers
9. Goose Goslin
10. Joe Jackson
11. Bill Terry
12. Dazzy Vance

1. Jim Creighton
2. AJ Reach
3. Albert Spink
4. Landis
5. Klem

I moved Jimmy Collins up and Traynor down

[jalbright]

We now also have a quorum on the contributor ballot.

[Freakshow]

1 Lefty Grove
2 Mule Suttles
3 Gabby Hartnett
4 Paul Hines
5 Goose Goslin
6 Fred Clarke
7 Ross Barnes
8 Joe Start
9 John M. Ward
10 Jimmy Collins
11 Dazzy Vance
12 Zack Wheat

[J W]

This marks the first time I've bumped a player from my ballot.

Players

1. Lefty Grove
2. Joe Jackson
3. Mule Suttles
4. Gabby Hartnett
5. Frank Grant
6. George Sisler
7. Rube Waddell
8. Sherry Magee
9. Stan Coveleski
10. Charlie Radbourn
11. Fred Clarke
12. Pie Traynor

Contributors

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Fred Clarke
3. Bill Klem
4. Francis Richter
5. Ed Barrow

[Captain Cold Nose]

1. Lefty Grove
2. John Montgomery Ward
3. George Sisler
4. Gabby Hartnett
5. Goose Goslin
6. Mule Suttles
7. Willie Keeler
8. Charles Radbourne
9. Jimmy Collins
10. Paul Hines
11. Harry Stovey
12. Frank Grant

Contributors

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Ned Hanlon
3. Bill Klem
4. Ed Barrow
5. A.J. Reach

[jaxxr]

1. Joe Jackson
2. Lefty Grove
3. Addie Joss
4. George Sisler
5. Ross barnes
6. Dazzy Vance
7. Bid McPhee
8. Willie Keeler
9. John Ward
10. Elmer Flick
11. Rube Waddell
12. Bill Terry

[jalbright]

This marks the first time I've bumped a player from my ballot.

It's my first, too, and it won't be very common for me, as it will require a fairly strong new class of players. That said, it has more chance of happening as we progress, because right now we're still at the level where very few guys are voting for people who aren't consensus HOFers. As we induct more and get closer to the modern day, we'll approach the gray area of the Hall, and it will be easier for a new class of players to have enough depth to bump candidates already on folks' ballots off those ballots. When we get past 2010 and are adding only two inductees a year, I think that will work to increase the frequency of this occurrence as well.

[jalbright]

For 1946, we'll have two new contributor candidates join the list, Ed Bolden and Branch Rickey. Rickey can get credit for planning to challenge the color line and for his work with the Cardinals. For me, that's enough to put him on my ballot for 1946, but at the bottom. "If" (wink, wink) the color line experiment succeeds and he isn't elected in 1946, I'll move him to the top of my ballot.

On the player side, there are five guys in the 1946 class who I don't expect to get much attention here: Guy Bush, Freddie Fitzsimmons, Luke Sewell, Clyde Sukeforth, and Glenn Wright. Heinie Manush is another in the the new class. He'll draw some attention, but I have my doubts he'll get inducted. There are two Negro Leaguers who should eventually get elected, Turkey Stearnes and Jud Wilson. Stearnes will go to a top spot (1 or 2) on my ballot, and Wilson to the bottom half of it. I'll bring back Grimes or Galvin if three candidates on my ballot are elected.

[jjpm74]

Players:

1. Mule Suttles
2. Lefty Grove
3. Ross Barnes
4. Ezra Sutton
5. Joe Start
6. Jimmy Collins
7. Paul Hines
8. Goose Goslin
9. Charlie Bennett
10. Rabbit Maranville
11. George Sisler
12. Gabby Hartnett

Contributors:

1. Jim Creighton
2. Francis Richter
3. C. I. Taylor
4. Bill Klem
5. Charley Comiskey

[jalbright]

I'll post some pieces on Jud Wilson and Turkey Stearnes. Jud Wilson first:

Jud Wilson ELECTED BBF HOF

He has a solid array of accolades to point to:
1) He's been selected to the Baseball Think Factory "Hall of Merit";
2) He finished 26th in the SABR poll which attempted to rank Negro League luminaries;
3) he was named as both the third team first baseman and the third-team third baseman in the Pittsburgh Courier poll;
4) he was named as a Hall of Fame caliber player by 80% ot the Negro League historians polled for Cool Papas and Double Duties; and
5) Elected to Cooperstown in 2006.

The data we have on Wilson against major leaguers in exhibitons shows 31 hits in 86 at bats with 3 homers, a .360 average.

The Baseball Think Factory guys project Wilson as a career 336/431/447 hitter with 2845 career hits. That projection puts him behind only one man who has become eligible for Cooperstown who is not in: Harold Baines, with 2866 career hits. Baines was good, but not a comparable quality hitter 289/359/465 for his career, especially in terms of on-base ability. Another way of looking at it is there's only one eligible man with 2700 or more hits and a career average over .300 who isn't in Cooperstown. That one man is Al Oliver, a career 303/348/451 hitter with 2743 career hits. Oliver also loses out to the Wilson projection due to inferior OBP.

The BTF guys peg Wilson at 378 career win shares, a best five of 140, and top three of 34, 31 and 28. As a guy who favors career value, I'd put him above the excellent Ron Santo (322; 162; and 37, 36, and 32). If you are one who values peak over career, I'd say you should put him over Brooks Robinson (355; 130; 33, 27 and 25).

From pages 120-121 of William McNeil's Cool Papas and Double Duties:
Wilson . . . packed a solid 185 pounds on a squat 5' 8" body. He had massive shoulders and a huge chest that tapered down to a small waist, and short, bowed legs . . .

He led the . . . . Eastern Colored League in batting in his sophomore year, crushing the ball to the tune of .464. He followed with seasons averages of .394, .397, .358, .412, .375, .346 and .371 . . . [H]e [then] played two years with the Grays, hitting .362 and .370, before jumping to the Philadelphia Stars where he played for six years. All he hit in Philly was .354, .412, .309, .380 and .319. He added three more batting championships [in the two years he hit .412 and the one he hit .380}. . . . He also led the league in doubles, triples and home runs, once each.

When he retired from the Negro Leagues, he left behind a .354 lifetime batting average, the highest average for any player with more than 2000 at bats . . . .

Jud Wilson was primarily a hitter, but he could also handle himself in the field and on the bases. He had good speed and was an aggressive baserunner . . . . On defense, he played first base and third base, both acceptably. He was not flashy, and he was not graceful, but somehow he got the job done. At third base, he was noted for knocking balls down with his chest, then picking them up and throwing the runner out.

Jud Wilson made the annual trek south in the winter to play in the Cuban Winter League. He spent six . . . winters there and almost destroyed the pitching staffs [in that league]. He raked opposing pitchers for averages of .430, .333, .424, .397 and .363 . . . . In all, Wilson won two batting championships in Cuba (the two seasons over .400] . . . . He also led the league in runs scored twice, triples once, home runs once, and stolen bases once. His career batting average in Cuba was .372, which is the highest batting average in Cuban baseball history . . . .

He also played in the California Winter League against major league players during the winter of 1930-31 and he hit .469 in fifteen games. And he played one year in the Puerto Rican Winter League, where he hit .404 as a 45-year-old graybeard.

Overall, Jud Wilson hit .354 in the Negro Leagues with 30 doubles, 6 triples and 13 home runs [per 550 AB]. . . In Cuba, he averaged .372 with 27 doubles, 19 triples and 13 home runs [per 550 AB].

I came up with a contemporary comparison for Wilson, which ran as follows:

Jud Wilson

Take Stan Hack and add 21 hits (3 of them homers and one a double) plus 10 walks per 162 games, and you've got him, though Hack was almost certainly a better defender.


hitter...... hand pos PA avg obp slg years
Wilson..... L 3B/1B 8466 336 431 448 1922-38
Hack....... L 3B 8506 301 394 397 1932-47
adjusted.. L 3B/1B 8626 336 431 447 …………

[jalbright]

I ought to add this Willie Stargell comparison to the Mule Suttles comment:

Mule Suttles

He's a lot like a right handed Willie Stargell, though Willie would have been more valuable per season in his time than Suttles in his. However, Suttles projects to a little longer career to balance that a bit. Suttles had a higher average, but didn't walk as much, at least per the evidence we have. They were also both LF/1B guys:


hitter...... hand pos PA avg obp slg years
Suttles.... R LF/1B 10163 302 366 538 1923-41
Stargell.... L LF/1B 9026 282 360 529 1962-82

[jalbright]

Turkey Stearnes
Years played: 1923-1942 (9 winters in California)
Main position: CF
All star selections: Holway 9, in Negro League all star game in five seasons.
MVPs: Holway three, James one and ESPN one
League champions on: 3 American summer, 7 California Winter
League leading performances: In American summer play, in the top five in average six times (led once), in the top five in homers seventeen times (led six) and in the top four in steals five times (led three). In California, led in average once and homers four times.
Expert rankings: Third among OF in the CPDD historian’s poll, tied for 8th in the SABR poll, was the 5th OF in the Museum poll, 5th team OF in Courier poll; James shifted him from center to make Stearnes his top Negro League left fielder and ranked him 25th among all players all time, Clark put him on his third team, and he’s on Team #2 of the All World picks.

The data in Shades of Glory is quite impressive: a .345 career average with a .410 OBP and .618 slugging percentage and 23 steals and 29 homers per 550 AB. That’s one heck of a complete package. I’ve seen folks compare Stearnes to his contemporary Mel Ott, and I think that’s a reasonable comparison. Let's look at it closer:

Ott was a RF who could play CF, but Stearnes was a solid or better CF. Ott got a little more playing time (more walks take care and then some of the difference in AB). We'll give Stearnes 14 more singles, but 3 less HR (net +11 hits) and 38 less walks per 162 games:


hitter....... hand pos AB avg obp slg years
Stearnes.. L CF 9785 326 393 537 1923-40
Ott......... L RF/CF 9456 304 414 533 1926-47
adjusted... L CF 9456 324 393 537 ………

[jalbright]

Guys,

I know I'm not perfect, and make mistakes too, but I've really got to insist that if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered. This is the second straight election where I've double-checked my totals against someone else's, only to find that a voter has made significant changes to his/her ballot without telling me. Going back and finding these problems is time-consuming, and, frankly, expecting me to go back and check for your unnanounced alterations is downright rude. I have other things to do, too, and the simple courtesy of a PM or a new post in the voting thread when you make a change is not a lot to ask. From now on, I simply won't count the changes if I don't get such a notification. I have amended rule 6 to conform to this announcement. This completes my unscheduled rant, and I return you to your regularly scheduled voting/discussion thread.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

I'm going to describe how I keep the tabulations, just so you understand why the above rant came about. Except for the first day (I usually wait until Saturday night to do the first tabulations on my spreadsheet), I put them in the spreadsheet when I see them at home (where my computer with the spreadsheet is). I find that doing one or two at a time enhances my accuracy as opposed to doing five or ten or whatever. This is in part because I usually do this at night, and this task can be tedious, especially with multiple ballots--and tedium and tiredness are a recipe for errors. Also, if I do them as they come in, I don't have to set aside a large block of time for the task. Once I make the entries, I don't go back to check ballots, unless I PM'd the voter about an error which needed fixing. Most of the time, people don't change their ballots if they haven't been told of an error, and I'm not about to waste time checking for such changes. If you PM me or tell me by a new post in the voting thread, I'll be happy to accomodate you, but if not, I'm not going to count them any more. My original count will stand.

[jalbright]

Those yet to vote

Paul Wendt has indicated he will vote on the contributor side. From last election, bambambaseball hasn't voted, but as he's announced in another project he'll be away for awhile, I'm going to assume PMing him won't be productive. He's certainly welcome to vote if he wishes, though. There are two other voters from last election yet to vote in this one: henrich and dgarza. If they haven't voted by the end of the weekend, I'll PM them, though I note henrich hasn't been on the site now for almost two full weeks.

[Paul Wendt]

Contributors
1. Richter
2. Klem
3. Ward
4. Reach
5. Comiskey

[dgarza]

Players

1. Lefty Grove
2. Sam Thompson
3. Joe Jackson
4. Ross Barnes
5. George Sisler
6. Goose Goslin
7. Harry Stovey
8. Willie Keeler
9. Bill Terry
10. Charley Radbourn
11. Pete Browning
12. Hugh Duffy

Contributors

1. Kenesaw Landis
2. Alexander Cartwright
3. Abner Doubleday
4. Charles Conlon
5. Jim Creighton

[Dogdaze]

Here's statistics compiled by SABR for the 2006 HOF study for Mule Suttles.

Mule Suttle:


Year Teams....................... BA LG BA G AB R H D T HR RBI BB SAC SB E SLG LG SLG Age
1923 Birmingham Black Barons .283 .277 34 127 20 36 4 2 1 16 6 1 4 6 .386 .377 22
1924 Birmingham Black Barons .318 .271 83 286 46 91 23 3 3 57 23 5 2 8 .451 .368 23
1925 Birmingham Black Barons .319 .280 66 238 34 76 6 3 10 12 27 7 5 12 .496 .396 24
1926 St. Louis Stars .391 .270 54 220 44 86 17 11 15 48 18 4 0 9 .773 .376 25
1927 St. Louis Stars .478 .272 24 67 21 32 7 3 7 19 12 0 1 1 .985 .376 26
1928 St. Louis Stars .371 .276 79 310 72 115 19 11 20 67 24 10 5 15 .697 .380 27
1929 CAG / St. Louis Stars .344 .284 66 253 58 87 26 5 9 39 21 5 5 7 .593 .401 28
1930 Balt. Black Sox/SL Stars .364 .273 37 143 44 52 9 5 10 30 15 4 3 4 .706 .377 30
1931 St. Louis Stars .304 .263 12 46 7 14 6 0 2 7 5 1 1 2 .565 .357 31
1932 Det. Wolves/Wash. Pilots .266 .264 34 124 22 33 10 2 2 13 10 1 3 8 .427 .340 32
1933 Chicago American Giants .283 .270 24 92 20 26 5 1 3 17 9 0 2 6 .457 .376 33
1934 Chicago American Giants .295 .265 45 173 20 51 4 2 4 12 10 1 3 15 .410 .336 34
1935 Chicago American Giants .303 .275 34 109 24 33 5 0 8 27 18 1 2 5 .569 .385 35
1936 Newark Eagles .346 .264 14 52 12 18 4 0 4 9 0 0 1 3 .654 .359 36
1937 Newark Eagles .360 .275 22 75 21 27 4 0 6 24 14 0 1 0 .653 .377 37
1938 Newark Eagles .277 .261 27 94 22 26 1 0 9 27 8 3 1 3 .574 .337 38
1939 Newark Eagles .341 .260 23 88 21 30 5 0 9 18 6 0 2 0 .705 .353 39
1940 Newark Eagles .273 .272 33 110 28 30 9 0 5 28 21 2 3 2 .491 .383 40
1941 Newark Eagles .217 .256 18 60 9 13 1 0 1 6 4 0 0 2 .283 .348 41
1942 Newark Eagles .417 .249 7 12 3 5 1 0 1 3 0 0 1 0 .750 .327 42
1943 Newark Eagles .250 .269 6 8 3 2 0 0 1 4 2 0 0 3 .625 .359 43
1944 Newark Eagles .250 .271 20 40 10 10 1 1 3 10 4 0 0 1 .550 .365 44
Career Totals .327 762 2727 561 893 167 50 133 493 257 45 45 112 .572

[Dogdaze]

Here's a little info on Jud Wilson:

According to SABR who compiled statistics for the HOF in 2006, Jud's career stats in NeL competition are;

BA .351 G 850 AB 2954 R 602 H 1038 D 182 T 33 HR 71 RBI 485 BB 354 SB 92 SLG .507

Negro League historian and author John Holway wrote;
Jud Wilson, whose .367 lifetime average makes him the Ty Cobb of the Negro Leagues

http://baseballguru.com/jholway/analysisjholway58.html

“Satchel Paige named Jud Boojum Wilson as one of the two toughest hitters he ever faced, and Josh Gibson considered Wilson the game's best hitter.”

http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers/detail.jsp?playerId=506643

Jud Wilson was voted by the folks at BBTF as the 6th greatest third baseman all time.

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/election_results_greatest_third_basemen_schmidt_ma thews_brett_boggs/

[AG2004]

My Ballot

PLAYERS
1. Lefty Grove
2. Paul Hines
3. Joe Start
4. Home Run Johnson
5. Hoss Radbourn
6. Gabby Hartnett
7. Fred Clarke
8. Dickey Pearce
9. Joe McGinnity
10. John Ward
11. Mule Suttles
12. Sherry Magee

McGinnity led all major league pitchers in win shares in 1900 and 1903, was second in 1904, and third in 1899. I think he might have gotten lost in the shuffle. Hartnett gets a boost for catching; the games played by NL catchers in the mid-20s, when he was getting started, were still a bit on the low side.

CONTRIBUTORS
1. Kenesaw Mountain Landis
2. Dickey Pearce
3. Jim Creighton
4. Al Reach
5. Tom Connolly

I'm seeing a lot of votes for Bill Klem. I would rate Tom Connolly ahead of Klem. From the SABR biography for Connolly,

http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1224&pid=2755


Because he worked in the League's first season, it is easy to note Connolly's career as one of firsts. It is an impressive list, especially when it is understood his on field performance justified many of the firsts. Simply put, Tommy Connolly was one of the greatest umpires to ever take the field. Connolly umpired the first American League ever played when Chicago hosted Cleveland. He also umpired inaugural games at Shibe Park in Philadelphia, Fenway Park in Boston and Yankee Stadium in the Bronx. He and Hank O'Day were selected to officiate in the first World Series in 1903. Connolly subsequently umpired in seven other fall classics. Connolly umpired in the Junior Circuit until June 1931, when he retired as a field umpire and was named American League Umpire in Chief by League President Will Harridge.

He served in that position until retiring in January 1954. His hiring by Harridge came at a time when nearly every team in the league was unhappy with the quality of umpiring. To address the issue, Connolly instituted many reforms, including scouting the minor leagues for umpiring talent. When a prospect was identified, Connolly would often do the evaluation personally.

Connolly's baseball career spanned a time from when umps worked games alone all way to the present day four man crews. It also spanned a time when the profession was not highly regarded to one that requires formal training and years of on the job experience. Connolly can take credit for much of the changed status of umpires and umpiring in the major leagues.

(Most of the reforms came before the end of 1945.)

Connolly's New York Times obit (which will be published in 1961) says,
"As an umpire, Mr. Connolly ranked with the greates of his profession - Bill Klem, Billy Evans, Tim Hurst and Sil O'Loughlin. Although he may have lacked the color of a Bill Klem, Mr. Connolly was perhaps the perfect umpire. He commanded great respect, although he rarely ejected a player from the game." [The full obit is available at http://www.baseball-almanac.com/deaths/tom_connolly_obituary.shtml]

The HOF's web site indicates that Connolly went ten years without ejecting a player from a game.

Klem may have been more colorful than Connolly, but Connolly was just as effective, if quieter and more able to stay in the background. Klem may have umpired more World Series than anybody else, but Connolly holds the AL record, and Ban Johnson tended towards rotating AL umpires for Series play. Finally, Connolly's tenure as Umpire in Chief/supervisor of AL umpires is enough for me to move him ahead of Klem.

[jalbright]

We had 19 votes for players, and have elected Lefty Grove, Gabby Hartnett, and John Montgomery Ward. The official results:


player…………….. votes points
Grove , Lefty 19 226
Hartnett , G 15 124
Ward , John M. 13 97
Hines , Paul 12 91
Suttles , Mule 12 87
Clarke , Fred 12 69
Barnes , Ross 9 68
Sisler , George 9 61
Jackson , Joe 6 57
Collins , Jimmy 9 56
Goslin , Goose 10 53
Magee , Sherry 8 51
Vance , Dazzy 9 42
Wheat , Zack 6 39
Radbourn , C 8 34
Start , Joe 3 23
Keeler , Willie 4 22
Traynor , Pie 4 22
Thompson , S 3 21
Bennett , C 3 20
Johnson , HR 3 20
Carey , Max 2 15
Waddell , Rube 4 15
Flick , Elmer 3 14
Groh , Heinie 3 14
Stovey , Harry 4 13
Lyons , Ted 3 12
McPhee , Bid 3 11
Sutton , Ezra 2 11
Grant , Frank 3 10
Joss , Addie 1 10
Terry , Bill 4 10
Maranville , R 3 9
Coveleski , S 2 8
Galvin , Pud 1 7
Chance , Frank 1 6
Caruthers , B 1 5
Gore , George 1 5
Pearce , Dickey 1 5
McGinnity , Joe 1 4
Browning , P 2 3
Roush , Edd 1 3
Tinker, Joe 1 3
Evers , Johnny 1 2
Jennings , H 1 2
Bresnahan , R 1 1
Duffy , Hugh 1 1


We had 16 votes in the contributor election, and elected Jim Creighton. The official results:


contributor………… votes points
Creighton , Jim 10 40
Richter , F 11 37
Klem, Bill…… 14 35
Cartwright , A 7 33
Landis , K 8 19
Barrow , Ed 8 18
Reach , A. J. 5 11
Commiskey , C 3 7
Pearce, Dickey 2 7
Spink, Albert 2 6
Ward , John M. 2 6
Clarke , Fred 1 4
Hanlon , Ned 1 4
Doubleday , A 1 3
Dunn , Jack 1 3
Taylor , C. I. 1 3
Conlan , C 1 2
Connolly , Tom 1 1
Selee , Frank 1 1

[jjpm74]

It's been an uphill battle, but I'm happy to see that Jim Creighton is gaining more recognition for his early contributions to the game here.

[jalbright]

It's been an uphill battle, but I'm happy to see that Jim Creighton is gaining more recognition for his early contributions to the game here.

You made the case well, which certainly helped. The biggest problem with Creighton was that the huge backlog of early candidates made it tough for his contribution to stand out for a while. Once the crowd thinned a bit, he rose to the top.