Teach kids to swing down!

[Swing Coach]

This post comes from watching (over many years) many little leaguers, high school players, college players and (over the last few years) comparing their swings to mlb'ers and trying to eliminate their flaws. And remember...it is just a theory.
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When we listen to mlb'ers talk about hitting, many (or most) will speak about the importance and the need to swing down to the ball. Watch them on deck swing down. Watch them pick up a weighted bat and swing down even harder. Are they all totally clueless? I don't think so.I'll come back to this.

My theory on the development of a hitter:
1. The vast majority of young kids (12 and under) develop a swing where they drop their hands and barrel as a first move. They learned this at a young age (unknowingly) to get on plane with the blooper pitches they saw when they were 5-8 years old.

2. Coaches who are former players see this flaw at some point and drill them to swing down through the ball with plenty of drill work for the purpose of eliminating this initial drop of the hands and barrel. Many of us see this and cringe...yet it is how the mlb'ers show it.

3. When kids get to high school the vast majority of them (now) have been "drilled out of" dropping the hands and barrel. They have the opposite problem. They swing with mostly hands and arms. They have a downward swing plane. However, the few, very athletic and stronger kids have learned (on their own or with a good coach) that to hit the ball with power, they need to use their core first and explode their hips. This is why even on a good high school team, you only have (MAYBE) 1-2 home run hitters (out of all those kids who have been hitting a baseball for 14 years).

4. Most of these HS kids never develop a powerful swing because their coach is exclusively teaching the downward move and the kid has not figured oput on his own that their is a "core" part of the swing that is missing.

5. The best of the kids who are really big, strong, athletic and have learned or been taught that they still need to use their hands down and forward, but to first use the core to really turn on the ball and power the swing have the best chance to get scholarships to Div. 1 schools.

**What is there to learn from this theory?: The mlb'ers, arguably the best hitters in the world, know they have to swing down and they will tell people and show people the motion. Why...because it is essential in a good swing. What they are not showing you is all the other essential parts they posess. They are not showing how they need to use the core along with this initial motion of the hands down and forward. They don't show this because they don't fully understand how the two work together. They just know that in a game against 90 mph pitches they have learned (to be the best) they have to somehow learned to combine the core with the hands down/forward with the shoulder tilt and barrel dropping to plane and the weight shift and extension etc. MOST CAN"T SHOW ALL THIS IN A DEMONSTRATION BECAUSE THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND IT. MOST DON'T SHOW THIS IN THE ON DECK CIRCLE BECAUSE THEY CAN'T DUPLICATE THE SITUATION THEY ARE ABOUT TO BE IN AT THE PLATE.

**What can we learn as far as our teaching?: Make sure kids can do both movements. It's as simple as A,B,C...............well, not really simple.

I use this all the time:
A) The test: ask your kids to hit ground balls of a tee. If they physically can't and keep hitting the tee and popping the ball up..then you know they need a lot of work on hands down and forward.

B)Ask the same kids to drive the ball into the outfield off a tee. If they can't, and keep hitting grounders, they need work on using their core.

C) The kids who can do both are ahead of the game. Putting the two together is your job...and it is a difficult...but essential one.

SC

[hawkiirock]

thanks for posting. Ought to generate some good discussion

[skipper5]

swingcoach, there's a lot in your post, so I'll just comment on no. 1

"My theory on the development of a hitter:
1. The vast majority of young kids (12 and under) develop a swing where they drop their hands and barrel as a first move. They learned this at a young age (unknowingly) to get on plane with the blooper pitches they saw when they were 5-8 years old."

It's unfortunate we have to start kids out with bloop pitches. It helps develop bad swings. But it's probably not realistic that 5-8 yo kids of average athletic ability-- in average baseball programs with an average amount of practice time--can be started off with faster non-bloop pitching.

I'm not being sarcastic when I say, it's too bad we can't suspend the laws of physics so that these 5-8 yo kids could receive a pitch that is as straight as a 50 mph pitch, but not nearly as fast, so that they could work themselves up from 35 mph to 50 mph on straight pitches.

Given the reality of normal baseball programs and the limited attention span and athleticism of normal 5-8 yr olds, can we do a better job of teaching a better swing to the masses?

Your ABC diagnostic test is interesting. Keep on thinking out of the box, swingcoach!!

[Swing Coach]

right on...what a disservice for any dad or any "coach-pitch" pitcher to lob the ball. Amazing how much better an 8-year-old's swing looks when he is forced to learn how to hit a faster, straighter pitch.

SC

[Bolts-Baseball]

That's why I feel that the way Cal Ripken League does their Rookie League with a pitching Machine at 40 MPH is the best way... Kids see more strikes, defense isn't standing around all game & ball is always put in play... Gets them off on a good start... Couple that with live BP, and you'll be ahead of the game...

[gameth]

This post comes from watching (over many years) many little leaguers, high school players, college players and (over the last few years) comparing their swings to mlb'ers and trying to eliminate their flaws. And remember...it is just a theory.
************************************************** ******
When we listen to mlb'ers talk about hitting, many (or most) will speak about the importance and the need to swing down to the ball. Watch them on deck swing down. Watch them pick up a weighted bat and swing down even harder. Are they all totally clueless? I don't think so.I'll come back to this.

My theory on the development of a hitter:
1. The vast majority of young kids (12 and under) develop a swing where they drop their hands and barrel as a first move. They learned this at a young age (unknowingly) to get on plane with the blooper pitches they saw when they were 5-8 years old.

2. Coaches who are former players see this flaw at some point and drill them to swing down through the ball with plenty of drill work for the purpose of eliminating this initial drop of the hands and barrel. Many of us see this and cringe...yet it is how the mlb'ers show it.

3. When kids get to high school the vast majority of them (now) have been "drilled out of" dropping the hands and barrel. They have the opposite problem. They swing with mostly hands and arms. They have a downward swing plane. However, the few, very athletic and stronger kids have learned (on their own or with a good coach) that to hit the ball with power, they need to use their core first and explode their hips. This is why even on a good high school team, you only have (MAYBE) 1-2 home run hitters (out of all those kids who have been hitting a baseball for 14 years).

4. Most of these HS kids never develop a powerful swing because their coach is exclusively teaching the downward move and the kid has not figured oput on his own that their is a "core" part of the swing that is missing.

5. The best of the kids who are really big, strong, athletic and have learned or been taught that they still need to use their hands down and forward, but to first use the core to really turn on the ball and power the swing have the best chance to get scholarships to Div. 1 schools.

**What is there to learn from this theory?: The mlb'ers, arguably the best hitters in the world, know they have to swing down and they will tell people and show people the motion. Why...because it is essential in a good swing. What they are not showing you is all the other essential parts they posess. They are not showing how they need to use the core along with this initial motion of the hands down and forward. They don't show this because they don't fully understand how the two work together. They just know that in a game against 90 mph pitches they have learned (to be the best) they have to somehow learned to combine the core with the hands down/forward with the shoulder tilt and barrel dropping to plane and the weight shift and extension etc. MOST CAN"T SHOW ALL THIS IN A DEMONSTRATION BECAUSE THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND IT. MOST DON'T SHOW THIS IN THE ON DECK CIRCLE BECAUSE THEY CAN'T DUPLICATE THE SITUATION THEY ARE ABOUT TO BE IN AT THE PLATE.

**What can we learn as far as our teaching?: Make sure kids can do both movements. It's as simple as A,B,C...............well, not really simple.

I use this all the time:
A) The test: ask your kids to hit ground balls of a tee. If they physically can't and keep hitting the tee and popping the ball up..then you know they need a lot of work on hands down and forward.

B)Ask the same kids to drive the ball into the outfield off a tee. If they can't, and keep hitting grounders, they need work on using their core.

C) The kids who can do both are ahead of the game. Putting the two together is your job...and it is a difficult...but essential one.

SC

I'm always afraid to say, the MLB'ers dont understand what they are doing. Im afraid I will be laughed off the field and have my posts deleted.

Because of this, I am very thankful you said it!

I agree 110% (if thats possilbe) I have seen many MLB players try and show swing mechanics/how they hit the ball and it is a train wreck most of the time. When compared to their actual video of them in game it is not even close to what their bodies are doing.

I have bought several of the epstein DVD/cd rom and I have seen darn near immediate improvement in the rotational mechanics of my kids swings. I can truly say there have been 2 products I have purchases in my life that were better then advertised. Epstein hitting, and Sole Supports orthotics that I use for my patients who need them. Not trying to market anything here, just letting folks know what I have used with great success. I know there are several great hitting instructors for rotational out there, I use Epstein.

:clapping

[azmatsfan]

I put "swing down on the ball" in the same category as telling kids to "swing level" and to "squish the bug." These are well-intentioned cues intended to fix common problems of dropping the hands or not rotating the hips early in the swing. Unfortunately these cues can instill a new set of bad habits, which is why most on this board don't like these phrases.

As far as pitching to young kids, I'm coaching my 6-year-old in coach-pitch LL. I'm the only coach out of the 4 teams that pitches under hand. I know eventually they'll have to learn to pick up a pitched ball, but next season will be machine pitch for these kids anyway. The other coaches all throw over hand standing up. The ball comes in at such a steep level it resembles slow pitch softball more than baseball.

[KevinOK]

When doing coach pitch overhand it helps if you can really lower your body as you pitch. I did this by bending my knees and spreading my pitching stance after my stride forwards a lot so when I released it was much lower than all the other coaches. I found I could put a little more zip on the ball and the downward angle of the ball was not to steep. I then told the kids to swing through the ball, to help them with their visual queue and hopefully get their bat on the plane of the ball for a longer period. Kids seem to relate to that well and we run ruled most teams.


Of course you have your parents yelling at little Johnny to swing level, swing down, or sweep the table, then kids get all confused.


I had one assistant yell at one of our better hitters for hitting knuckleballs or balls with slight top spin over the outfielders head, he was 6 and playing up. He yelled swing down on the ball or run laps, instant confusion on his face. I ask the assistant (who plays alot of competitive softball) does he swing down or on the plane of the softball, the look I got back was priceless. We parted ways at seasons end.

[dominik]

I think the swing down is not such a bad cue at first.

The hands have to stay up very long and then go down to the ball, instead of hitching the hands which is very bad.

Most of the swing goes down, but yet the plane is upward at contact.

Maybe like a half time skateboarder, shortly after they have reached their low point of the pipe. Most of the time it goes down, but the contact is shortly after the direction reversed.

If you drop it early and then swing up you will have much less speed from the downhill ride.

In that fashion the swing down thing is a good thing, maybe it would be equally good to teach them to keep the hands up which might cause the desired path automatically since he has to swing down to get to it.

[Ursa Major]

When our 7-8 y/o team won the championship back in 2002, our manager pitched and made it a point to throw fast enough that the ball didn't have much dip. The kids' swings were relatively level and were mostly resulted in the equivalent of line drives. The second place team had a 6'3" manager and he actually got to one knee to pitch. Yet, the other day, I saw a coach-pitch team the other day with a pitcher who must have been 6'7" lobbing the ball in, and the kids looked like they were fair-catching punts as they loaded up to swing.

Dominik said: Maybe like a half time skateboarder, shortly after they have reached their low point of the pipe. Most of the time it goes down, but the contact is shortly after the direction reversedHmm, you may be on to something here that may help reach teenagers, Dom. Can you translate this into something that we over-50, non-skateboarders can understand well-enough to re-translate back into 'teenager'? It sure beats trying to explain technique to them using Tom G.'s golf analogies.

[jbolt_2000]

On my tee ball team we are allowed three pitches and if no hit, then the player hits from the tee. I pitch to my players from one knee over hand. The first two weeks the kids had some trouble. We played a couple of games and the other coaches were under-handing the ball to their players. At that time some of their players were hitting the ball, while only a couple of mine were hitting my pitches.

Now after about 5 or so weeks, all my players are hitting my pitches while the other teams are still only getting a some players each to hit their "pitches". I also feel that next year when some of the kids move up to Farm level or Coach Pitch, they will have a better idea of how to hit than those learning from under-hand lobs.

[azmatsfan]

I also feel that next year when some of the kids move up to Farm level or Coach Pitch, they will have a better idea of how to hit than those learning from under-hand lobs.

Pitching from one knee works as well. The only problem is getting out of the way of line drives up the middle. And I don't understand why a player will have a better idea of how to hit than those who pitch under-hand. The ball will be coming it at the same speed with the same trajectory.