Still tweaking Kevin's swing

[MSandman]

I thought I'd start another thread to track the progress of what improvements we might try to make throughout the season. We can't really fill his head w/ too much mechanics during the season, so we're confining our mechanics chats to weekends only. If he has a practice during the week that they don't get a chance to hit much at, then he usually comes home asking me to throw him a bucket or two in our cage. But we'll try to keep those focused on rhythm and hitting the ball hard and other non-mechanics things so that he's not overthinking during games.

For reference, here's the recent thread I started a few weeks ago: 14YO trying out for freshman team next week (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=88446&highlight=14yo). I appreciate all the input in that thread. Though there are always going to be many things to work on improving, I know we can't try to tackle them all at once (tho I often forget this and tend to overload my son a bit :blush:).

So, though I'd still really like to see him load his upper body later, it seemed that the more immediate issue was his swaying back.
... he doesn't get any movement forward. He goes back and does somewhat c0ck his hips, but then instead of moving forward and creating a stretch with the upper body going back and hips going forward he just goes back and then spins. I am not sure if he is trying to emulate Pujols but if you watch Pujols he gets forward momentum and stetches the upper half while he is coming forward.
... the thing i noticed was a lack of weight shift.
I too would like to see just a bit of shift.
I'm seeing an "all back" "all forward" swing. ... As soon as you pick up the front foot you'd better get moving forward, just loading the hands later doesn't mean you've got the lower going. Your son is swaying back, causing his problems.
He seems to have abandoned the no-stride and I am fine w/ that, but now it seems that he's back to his over-stride. Maybe his version of no-stride was actually contributing to the sway (because without the momentum from a stride, he felt he had to sway to get power?)? But again, not wanting to confuse him, I simply asked him to focus on ONE thing during this session: DO NOT SWAY BACK AS YOU LIFT YOUR STRIDE FOOT. So other issues have certainly crept in, i.e. the lead knee/foot severely fanning open. However, I do think he did a better job of not swaying back today. The top image is from the original thread a few weeks ago; the bottom one is today.
http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/Kevin%20and%20ARod,%20shift%20during%20stride.gif

Full-speed video clips: 04-05-09 (http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/Kevin%20-%20cage%202009-04-05.mp4), 03-14-09 (http://members.cox.net/msanda/Kevin%20-%20cage%2003-14-09.mp4)

So... what do you folks think? Are we heading in the right direction w/ improving his shift? Does the stride length and amount that he's fanning open the lead knee/foot offset any gains that might've been made in the shift departmeent though? Though we didn't focus at all in this session on keeping the upper body quiet during the initial leg lift part of the stride, we have worked on that w/ dry swings a few times over the past couple weeks. I do think he stayed quieter here than he was a few weeks ago w/ his no-stride. So that seems like a step in the right direction too.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't expect any miracle transformation in a week or two. His swing, like most, will always be a work in progress. That means that sometimes we have to look for incremental improvements in the areas on which we focused. As Bill Murray learned in "What About Bob?": "Baby steps!" :D

Thank you all for your help.

-Mike

[jbooth]

So, though I'd still really like to see him load his upper body later, it seemed that the more immediate issue was his swaying back.

He seems to have abandoned the no-stride and I am fine w/ that, but now it seems that he's back to his over-stride. Maybe his version of no-stride was actually contributing to the sway (because without the momentum from a stride, he felt he had to sway to get power?)? But again, not wanting to confuse him, I simply asked him to focus on ONE thing during this session: DO NOT SWAY BACK AS YOU LIFT YOUR STRIDE FOOT. So other issues have certainly crept in, i.e. the lead knee/foot severely fanning open. However, I do think he did a better job of not swaying back today. The top image is from the original thread a few weeks ago; the bottom one is today.
http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/Kevin%20and%20ARod,%20shift%20during%20stride.gif

Full-speed video clips: 04-05-09 (http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/Kevin%20-%20cage%202009-04-05.mp4), 03-14-09 (http://members.cox.net/msanda/Kevin%20-%20cage%2003-14-09.mp4)

So... what do you folks think? Are we heading in the right direction w/ improving his shift? Does the stride length and amount that he's fanning open the lead knee/foot offset any gains that might've been made in the shift departmeent though? Though we didn't focus at all in this session on keeping the upper body quiet during the initial leg lift part of the stride, we have worked on that w/ dry swings a few times over the past couple weeks. I do think he stayed quieter here than he was a few weeks ago w/ his no-stride. So that seems like a step in the right direction too.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't expect any miracle transformation in a week or two. His swing, like most, will always be a work in progress. That means that sometimes we have to look for incremental improvements in the areas on which we focused. As Bill Murray learned in "What About Bob?": "Baby steps!" :D

Thank you all for your help.

-Mike

I don't think a hitter should TRY to shift. By that, I mean that if you load the back leg by bending it, putting weight on it, and cocking the back hip. The shift will naturally occur when you forcefully unload the back leg by driving the top of the back leg around and forward. You should focus on turning from the back leg. If you like to pick up your front foot and stride, that's fine, but the front foot should be moving forward due to the rotation and unloading of the back leg. You're not reaching out with the front foot, you're pushing the front foot forward, from back leg force.

The front foot should simply be "catching" the weight/force coming from the backside. The shift comes from the back leg. It's hard to describe the subtle difference between shifting and turning before you get on the front foot, versus shifting into the front foot and then turning. If you focus on the joint at the top of the back leg and simply load into it, and unload it properly, you will shift and turn. The rotation is more important than the shift anyway.

If he loads his back leg while the front foot is on the ground, and then just lifts the foot when the back leg unloads, the foot will get pushed forward. It's difficult not to sway back if you lift the front foot in order to load the back one.

Also, the hands should reach the fully loaded point, when you trigger the turn from the top of the back leg. This will stretch the torso and the hip turn will move the hands forward. Just think "hips and hands." And, simplify it further by just thinking to have the hands locking in to the correct spot at the instant that you fire the back leg.

[MSandman]

Thanks for the input Jim. I just tried what you said (I keep a SwiftStik in the family room ;)). I never thought of loading the rear hip BEFORE lifting the front foot. But you had pointed out a couple years ago (when I posted a side-by-side of of Kevin and ARod) that Kevin was tilting his hips during his stride, resulting in some rearward torso tilt at toe touch.

I just showed him me doing what you said - loading the rear hip before lifting the front foot, then simply lifting my front foot and using the rear hip UNload to complete my "shift". Pretty simple move (at least in a dry swing here in the family room :D). Next weekend, I'll help him work on this a bit, as I promised him "no mechanics discussions during the week".

Our immediate goal today was to "get off the backside". Though he may not be doing it in an optimal way, I do think he showed some improvement in this area, and I told him so. That hasn't always been one of my strong suits; I tend to point out all the flaws, but not always take time to praise even incremental improvements. So next weekend, we'll try to get off the backside by doing the "load the rear hip before lifting the stride foot" you suggested.

As much as we know that he also needs to get some late upper body load, that's just not happening yet. :( If he can raise his rear elbow during his stride, I think it'll help him keep his torso centered above his lower body, and arrive at toe touch more like ARod, w/ his front shoulder lower than his rear (instead of how he is now).

Thanks again.

[Encinitas]

I would consider that fanning the front knee/leg. Here is what I look at on that Sandman. Is the rear hip turn driving the action? That is there are many pro-guys who open the knee/foot before landing, but usually there is some turn happening from the back hip causing the action.

I would personally would want to see him maintain a load in the rear leg longer. That doesn't mean you have to take my advice but finding a way for him to get to his upper body load later in the process would help a great deal.

I am not as big about shifting onto the front side. Thome, Adrian Gonzalez, Bonds, Carlos Pena do fine staying back. I think he's giving up a lot there by shifting onto the front leg instead of starting his turn from the rear hip.

[jbooth]

I would consider that fanning the front knee/leg. Here is what I look at on that Sandman. Is the rear hip turn driving the action? That is there are many pro-guys who open the knee/foot before landing, but usually there is some turn happening from the back hip causing the action.

I would personally would want to see him maintain a load in the rear leg longer. That doesn't mean you have to take my advice but finding a way for him to get to his upper body load later in the process would help a great deal.

I am not as big about shifting onto the front side. Thome, Adrian Gonzalez, Bonds, Carlos Pena do fine staying back. I think he's giving up a lot there by shifting onto the front leg instead of starting his turn from the rear hip.

In what way, is what you stated different from what I stated below?

The shift will naturally occur when you forcefully unload the back leg by driving the top of the back leg around and forward. You should focus on turning from the back leg.

[Encinitas]

In what way, is what you stated different from what I stated below?

None, in fact I was typing away, and forgot you said the same thing.

[Encinitas]

Actually Jim I did make a clip though.

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/kevmagkent.gif

I almost never use the "get off the backside" as a cue now as it seems to lead to getting off early. Of course cues are cues, you can't really blame the cue.

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/cpenaturn.gif

[wogdoggy]

I would consider that fanning the front knee/leg. Here is what I look at on that Sandman. Is the rear hip turn driving the action? That is there are many pro-guys who open the knee/foot before landing, but usually there is some turn happening from the back hip causing the action.

I would personally would want to see him maintain a load in the rear leg longer. That doesn't mean you have to take my advice but finding a way for him to get to his upper body load later in the process would help a great deal.

I am not as big about shifting onto the front side. Thome, Adrian Gonzalez, Bonds, Carlos Pena do fine staying back. I think he's giving up a lot there by shifting onto the front leg instead of starting his turn from the rear hip.



I agree he lands with his front foot too open....my boy had has the same problem..you'll see pro's roll over the front foot but only because of severe rotation.personally i think he looks way better ,,:clapping

[FlippJ]

Encinitas, you've got a PM! :)

[jbooth]

Actually Jim I did make a clip though.

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/kevmagkent.gif



The difference between the young man, and the two pros is subtle and difficult to discern, but IMO, the difference is;

They are driving the backside into the ball, or swinging from the back side. Kinda swinging AS the foot goes down. Whereas, he is turning a little bit initially as he lands the front foot, but his drive from the back doesn't really get going until his foot is weighted. He is swinging AFTER the foot goes down. The pros, for lack of a better term; swing from the backside, not from the front side.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Kinda swinging AS the foot goes down.


Yes!

....

[FiveFrameSwing]

p.s.

JBooth once wrote the following, which I found value in.

I think it's noteworthy to this thread.

--

JBooth:

The muscles that connect the upper leg (femur) to the pelvic bone (hips), are the main power source. Some people call those muscle actions, "moving from the middle." I call it pushing off the back foot, except that you don't push with the lower leg muscles, or the thigh muscles. The force is felt at your foot, but the initial force comes from the glutes and other muscles in the upper leg/hip area.

Once your weight shifts to the front foot, you now feel pressure on the front foot and the front hip. Again, a lot of the work is done by muscles in the front hip/upper leg area, and also the quad (thigh) muscles of the front leg. The quads straighten the front leg, and the upper leg/hip muscles finish the rotation that was originally started by the abduction/push from the back hip/upper leg.

There is no pushing with the back foot, or pushing to straighten the back leg, and there is no twisting of the back leg (bug squish). The back leg twists and the back foot squishes the bug, as a result of rotating the hips from upper leg/pelvic muscle action. The back leg must stay bent as the force is applied to turn the hips in order to keep your head steady, and as soon as the hips get into rotation the back leg should relax and the front leg takes over. If the back leg straightens, it usually means you pushed with the quads (thigh) and you pushed too long, instead of just applying a burst from the hip and then letting the front side take over.

When you push by straightening the back leg, you slide sideways instead of rotating, and your head moves up and forward. You must keep the back leg bent and finish rotation while pressure is on the front foot in order to keep your head still and centered.

The front leg must accept pressure while bent and then straighen so that the rotation finishes and your head stays centered. If the front leg bends the head will go forward and rotation doesn't finish.

[Swing Coach]

That is a great improvement over swing #1. It is not easy to improve that dramatically. Yeah, I agree with the front foot..but it is minor compared to the positive improvement. I might think his stride is a bit too long for his body height.

Great job!

SC

[MSandman]

Thanks for all the input guys.

Swing Coach, you're right... improving is HARD. And even though we often set out to work on one thing, I tend to start bringing up other issues during our sessions and before you know it, his poor head is spinning. :crazy

So in this session, we were only working on not swaying back. And I'll give him credit for finding a way to improve upon that. Of course, he abandoned the no-stride, which probably made it easier not to do that. But in its place, he went back to his former over-stride. Deep down, I think he feels he has to do SOMETHING (lots of movement) in order to have power in his swing. In no-stride, that something was a sway back; with a stride, it seems to be a forceful long stride - anything to get momentum. Whereas in the no-stride swing, when he loaded his hips, he swayed back and prematurely loaded the upper body. But in the new swing, where he was consciously trying to avoid that, he pretty much never loaded his hips at all. :( He kept his upper body quieter, but probably because he failed to really load ANYTHING - he just stepped forward. Hmmm...

Jim, I like your cue of loading the rear hip BEFORE lifting the front foot. I never really caught onto that, but can see it clearly in some pro clips (moreso Ordonez than Kent tho). If that'll help Kevin not tilt his hips (and therefore his torso), then great. I see guys like Manny (at least his Dodgers clips) though who don't appear load until AFTER they lift their foot???

Regarding getting a better late upper body load... he can do this in the proper sequence all day long in dry swings, so it's not a physical "unable to conceive/perform" issue. But once there's a ball, he still abandons it. However, again, I'll give him some credit that even though he's still not loading it as he strides, he doesn't appear to be dropping it as much as before.

He has games tomorrow and Thurs., so this will have to wait til the weekend. But we have a couple things to work on:
1. Load the rear hip while the front foot is still on the ground. Keep the upper body quiet during this lower body load!
2. Pull the rear elbow back/up during the stride. Front elbow should remain down near belly, rear one back up near/above rear shoulder. rjkid's 13YO son does a GREAT job of this, IMO.

Thanks again.