Why is it so hard to hit a knuckle ball?

[dominik]

I don' think I did face a knuckle yet, but what's so hard about this? Why do fantastic MLB hitters who easily hit 90mph fastball often strike out or miss at 60 mph knuckles. I know it moves crazy, but with that slow speed, which is more or less bp speed or less for hitter at major league level it shouldn't be a problem to adjust that, wouldn't it.

Is the greatest challenge in hitting to catch up with the really overpowering pitches, because you more time constrainsts on them?

Ironically I also have great problem on breaking slow stuff and hit fastballs muck better. Is this just a mental thing, or wh is it so hard to adjust to such stuff?

[jbooth]

I don' think I did face a knuckle yet, but what's so hard about this? Why do fantastic MLB hitters who easily hit 90mph fastball often strike out or miss at 60 mph knuckles. I know it moves crazy, but with that slow speed, which is more or less bp speed or less for hitter at major league level it shouldn't be a problem to adjust that, wouldn't it.

Is the greatest challenge in hitting to catch up with the really overpowering pitches, because you more time constrainsts on them?

Ironically I also have great problem on breaking slow stuff and hit fastballs muck better. Is this just a mental thing, or wh is it so hard to adjust to such stuff?

They throw it about 70+ and until you've seen a good one, it will be difficult to explain.

Unlike all other pitches that change direction only once, and always move in the same direction, a knuckle ball may change directions two or 3 times, and you never know in which direction it is going to go.

I've seen them go up, then down. I've seen them go down, then sideways, etc. You can't swing until it gets close to you, and it usually changes direction the final time, right at the time you launch your swing at the last place you saw it.

It never follows the same path from pitch to pitch. When the ball is moving toward the catcher, nobody knows what path it will take, or how many times it will change direction, or when it will change direction.

It's like trying to swat a butterfly.

In short; it's path is unpredictable.

[darbypitcher22]

the ball moves, floats, dips, dives, and slides all over the place

[AltaLomaStorm]

Jim hit it right on the head. Fastball, curve, slider, splitter, etc all have movement, but it is consistent movement. Just look how difficult it is for the catcher to track it. Add a little wind and it gets nastier. Someone here has a signature line saying something similar to "how do you catch a knuckleball? You pick it up when it stops rolling..."

[ipitch]

I know it moves crazy, but with that slow speed, which is more or less bp speed or less for hitter at major league level it shouldn't be a problem to adjust that, wouldn't it.

How can you adjust to it when the movement is unpredictable?

[Jake Patterson]

Why is it so hard to hit a knuckle ball?
Ahhh to use the wise words of Yogi.... It's not.... once it stops rolling.

[jbooth]

I don' think I did face a knuckle yet, but what's so hard about this? Why do fantastic MLB hitters who easily hit 90mph fastball often strike out or miss at 60 mph knuckles. I know it moves crazy, but with that slow speed, which is more or less bp speed or less for hitter at major league level it shouldn't be a problem to adjust that, wouldn't it.

Is the greatest challenge in hitting to catch up with the really overpowering pitches, because you more time constrainsts on them?

Ironically I also have great problem on breaking slow stuff and hit fastballs muck better. Is this just a mental thing, or wh is it so hard to adjust to such stuff?

In my first response, I didn't think of the possibility that you haven't seen a "real" knuckleball.

You may have seen someone throw a pitch that doesn't spin. But, you may not have seen one thrown 70mph. A slow moving ball that does not spin is what many kids throw, and it doesn't move around while traveling to the plate. It's just a slow, straight moving ball that doesn't spin. I forget what the necessary speed is; but the ball must being going fast enough to cause the stitches on the ball to disturb the air flow around the ball before it begins to move around like a fly. An MLB knuckleball is throw 68 to 74 mph and it darts around like a fly.

A friend threw one to me when we were just playing catch, and I didn't have a mask on. I threatened to beat the crap out of him if he did it again. The ball changed direction about 3 times, by about 4 inches each time, in the last half of the distance between us, and then when it was about 3 feet from my glove it moved about 18 inches off the line to my glove and I missed it. My glove was a little to my left and the ball darted by it and passed by the right side of my head, nearly hitting me in the face.

If you can't catch it, how can you swing a bat at it, and hit it?

[scorekeeper]

Is there any “real” information on how much they move and change direction? I’m talking about data from something like pitchF/X.

[skipper5]

From "Project Knuckleball"--long article in New Yorker Mag.

“A knuckleball can change so close to the batter that he cannot physiologically adjust to it,

There is no right way to hold a knuckleball when throwing it (seams, no seams; two fingers, three), and no predictable flight pattern once it leaves the hand. “Butterflies aren’t bullets,” the longtime knuckleballer Charlie Hough once said. “You can’t aim ’em—you just let ’em go.” The pitch shakes, shimmies, wobbles, drops—it knuckles, as they say. Which is doubly confusing, because the term “knuckleball” is itself a kind of misnomer, a holdover from the pitch’s largely forgotten infancy.

All told, there have been about seventy pitchers who have entrusted their livelihoods, at one point or another, to the vagaries of the knuckleball (by the count of baseball writer Rob Neyer). Some have preferred to throw a faster, harder-breaking version of the pitch

Catchers hate it,” Jim Bouton, the author of “Ball Four: My Life and Hard Times Throwing the Knuckleball in the Big Leagues,” said recently. “Nobody likes to warm up with you. Coaches don’t respect it. You can pitch seven good innings with a knuckleball, and as soon as you walk a guy they go, ‘See, there’s that damn knuckleball.’ ”

“You’re better off trying to hit Wakefield when you’re in a drunken stupor,” the Yankees first baseman Jason Giambi said recently

Flutterballs are exceedingly difficult to control, and the ability to land pitches anywhere near the strike zone with consistency is what separates a true knuckleballer from a Sunday-afternoon showoff. Wakefield walked twenty-eight batters over a three-game stretch in April of 1993.

(Wakefield) works hard, still, at practicing his fastball and curveball, each of which he throws between five and ten per cent of the time, to preserve at least some element of surprise. “I’ve hit eighty on the radar gun maybe half a dozen times,” he said, cracking a restrained smile. “That’s a huge accomplishment for me. I get high fives when I get to the dugout.”

The weather—artificial or real—comes up frequently, too. Most knucklers agree that wind in the face is good (anything to add resistance and turbulence), while wind blowing from behind spells doom.

Greenwell, who said he’d hit knuckleballs quite well during his playing days, imparted what wisdom he could to his players: “Swing under it—the ball will always drop. Try to lift it.

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/05/17/040517fa_fact1?currentPage=all

[bob_r]

Is there any “real” information on how much they move and change direction? I’m talking about data from something like pitchF/X.
Maybe a year or so ago there was a video here where Phil Niekro was throwing them and the camera was the catchers view it was awesome, unfortunately the youtube link is dead.

[scorekeeper]

In case anyone’s interested. http://www.oddball-mall.com/knucklertalk/index.php

[scorekeeper]

Here’s another one.
http://ballhype.com/video/jim_caple_catches_knuckleballer_r_a_dickey_espn_vi deo/

[hitforaverage]

jbooth hit the nail on the head. My brother's a knuckleballer, and I caught to him all offseason last year. He throws it around 68-71mph, and I can tell you it is pretty damn hard to catch. And if it's hard to catch with a 12 inch glove, it's a lot harder to hit it with a 2-1/2 inch round bat.

All we ever work on is release point and rhythm, because after it leaves his hand, neither of us knows where it will go. Usually the ball will float and wobble, then dive in the last few feet in a variety of directions, and when it breaks, it breaks hard.

The worst ones seem to go up. The ball floats on a normal trajectory, falling slightly, then all of a sudden goes dead straight, making it seem like the ball actually rose. I'll try and post some videos.

[marklaker]

FWIW, a kid on my son's travel team throws the a knuckler or some facsimilie and it's quite good, dipping and breaking without warning. Commands it well enough to hit the strike with enough regularity to keep even the most disciplined 11U hitters from laying off it. Generally uses it once per at bat, but employed it much more frequently yesterday to keep a good hitting team off balance. It was fun to watch.

[NewbieBBDad]

"You don't catch a knuckleball, you defend against it." ― Dodgers manager and former catcher Joe Torre
"Trying to hit against Phil Niekro is like trying to eat Jell-O with chopsticks". ― All-star outfielder Bobby Murcer
"I never worry about it. I just take my three swings and go sit on the bench. I'm afraid if I ever think about hitting it, I'll mess up my swing for life." ― All-star first baseman Dick Allen
"I always thought the knuckleball was the easiest pitch to catch. Wait'll it stops rolling, then go to the backstop and pick it up." ― broadcaster and former catcher Bob Uecker
"There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball. Unfortunately, neither of them works." ― famed hitting coach Charlie Lau
"You know, catching the knuckleball, it's like trying to catch a fly with a chopstick." ― All-star and Gold Glove catcher Jason Varitek
"If it's high, let it fly. If it's low, let it go." ―Common saying describing how to approach hitting the knuckleball.
"Throwing a knuckleball for a strike is like throwing a butterfly with hiccups across the street into your neighbor's mailbox." ― Hall of Famer Willie Stargell
"For a knuckleballer, a pitch count of 150 is not a problem. Unless it's the first inning." ― Dave Clark, author of The Knucklebook
"Like some cult religion that barely survives, there has always been at least one but rarely more than five or six devotees throwing the knuckleball in the big leagues... Not only can't pitchers control it, hitters can't hit it, catchers can't catch it, coaches can't coach it, and most pitchers can't learn it. The perfect pitch." ― Ron Luciano, former AL umpire
"Hitting Niekro's knuckleball is like eating soup with a fork." ― Richie Hebner
"You're not expected to hit it. [I am] expected to catch it." ― John Flaherty summing up his day catching Tim Wakefield in a spring training game against the Twins by relaying a comment made by fellow catcher Mike Redmond. Flaherty retired the next day.
"Knuckleballs suck." ― Geno Petralli after giving up four passed balls in one inning

[Jake Patterson]

"You don't catch a knuckleball, you defend against it." ― Dodgers manager and former catcher Joe Torre
"Trying to hit against Phil Niekro is like trying to eat Jell-O with chopsticks". ― All-star outfielder Bobby Murcer
"I never worry about it. I just take my three swings and go sit on the bench. I'm afraid if I ever think about hitting it, I'll mess up my swing for life." ― All-star first baseman Dick Allen
"I always thought the knuckleball was the easiest pitch to catch. Wait'll it stops rolling, then go to the backstop and pick it up." ― broadcaster and former catcher Bob Uecker
"There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball. Unfortunately, neither of them works." ― famed hitting coach Charlie Lau
"You know, catching the knuckleball, it's like trying to catch a fly with a chopstick." ― All-star and Gold Glove catcher Jason Varitek
"If it's high, let it fly. If it's low, let it go." ―Common saying describing how to approach hitting the knuckleball.
"Throwing a knuckleball for a strike is like throwing a butterfly with hiccups across the street into your neighbor's mailbox." ― Hall of Famer Willie Stargell
"For a knuckleballer, a pitch count of 150 is not a problem. Unless it's the first inning." ― Dave Clark, author of The Knucklebook
"Like some cult religion that barely survives, there has always been at least one but rarely more than five or six devotees throwing the knuckleball in the big leagues... Not only can't pitchers control it, hitters can't hit it, catchers can't catch it, coaches can't coach it, and most pitchers can't learn it. The perfect pitch." ― Ron Luciano, former AL umpire
"Hitting Niekro's knuckleball is like eating soup with a fork." ― Richie Hebner
"You're not expected to hit it. [I am] expected to catch it." ― John Flaherty summing up his day catching Tim Wakefield in a spring training game against the Twins by relaying a comment made by fellow catcher Mike Redmond. Flaherty retired the next day.
"Knuckleballs suck." ― Geno Petralli after giving up four passed balls in one inning
Newbie,
Great post...

I stand corrected. I gave Yogi credit for this above: "I always thought the knuckleball was the easiest pitch to catch. Wait'll it stops rolling, then go to the backstop and pick it up." ― broadcaster and former catcher Bob Uecker