BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1943

[Ace Venom]

PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING!

Format and Rules
Voting Rules: Voters may vote for between 0-15 candidates. Votes will be made public, and voters are encouraged to post their ballots in the thread and not view results before voting. PLEASE LIMIT YOUR BALLOT TO 15 VOTES AT MOST. EXCESS
VOTES MAY RESULT IN YOUR BALLOT BEING DISQUALIFIED.
-Blank Ballots: A "None of the Above" option is available if you believe no one is worthy and you wish to submit a blank ballot. This option is not to be taken lightly and it is strongly urged that it be used only after the utmost consideration, as non-votes carry great weight. Additionally, if using this option, please post your rationale.

Voting Criteria: Players are to be evaluated within the context of the era in which they played and the history of the game to that point. Players are not to be held to standards that would materialize at a time beyond the year of the current election. Modern statistical analysis is permitted but must be applied strictly within historical context not to go beyond the year of the current election. Players are to be judged based solely on their playing careers. Other, non-playing contributions may be considered to the extent that they coincided with a player's playing career (such as a player/manager).

Thoughtfulness and Editing Ballots: Please review and thoughtfully consider the candidates before voting, and make sure you have accurately filled out your ballot before submitting. Requests for editing ballots after the fact will generally not be honored. Exceptions might be made if a voter accidentally voted for the wrong player or accidentally went over the voting limit (but I strongly encourage you to do your best to prevent either from happening).

Required Support: Players receiving at least 75% support in an election will be elected. Players need at least 5% support to appear on the next ballot (NOTE: Starting in 1940, this rule also applies to first year eligible players).

Player Eligibility: Players eligible for an election will have last played at least 5 years prior to the election year and have appeared in at least 10 Major League seasons . If a player appeared in less than 10 seasons, he may still be eligible if he had a minimum of 3000 ABs or 1500 IP, though extra scrutiny will be applied. Players will remain on the ballot for 15 years, provided they continue to receive at least 5% of the vote, at which point they will become indefinitely eligible for periodic elections conducted by the Veterans Committee.
- Age Exception: For players 40 or older, they will become eligible the later of either 5 years after their last year of continuous play, or their first inactive year at age 45 or older.

Election Period: Elections will close exactly one week after starting. The next election might not commence for another day or two.

1943 Guide
There are 38 candidates on the 1943 ballot - 23 holdovers and 15 first timers. First time eligible players last played in 1938 (unless qualifying under the age rule). The sole exception is Edd Roush, left off the ballot by mistake since he first would have been eligible since 1936. Rather than retroactively place him in his 8th year of eligibility, he will be granted 1st year status in order to ensure his maximum 15 year eligibility.

Newly Eligible (15)
Ethan Allen
Ed Brandt
Kiki Cuyler
Woody English
Goose Goslin
Mule Haas
Bill Hallahan
Waite Hoyt
Roy Johnson
Red Lucas
Edd Roush
John Stone
Joe Stripp
Tommy Thevenow

Holdovers (23)
Player Year of Eligibility Previous Support High Support Low Support
Dave Bancroft 9th 18.92% 28.13% (1936) 8.82% (1940)
Jim Bottomley 2nd 27.03% 27.03% (1942) 27.03% (1942)
George J. Burns 14th 10.81% 24.00% (1930) 9.09% (1935)
Earle Combs 4th 13.51% 17.14% (1941) 11.76% (1940)
Wilbur Cooper 13th 29.73% 58.33% (1932) 29.73% (1942)
Larry Gardner 15th 16.22% 17.14% (1941) 5.88% (1940)
Burleigh Grimes 5th 48.65% 56.25% (1939) 48.65% (1942)
Chick Hafey 2nd 5.41% 5.41% (1942) 5.41% (1942)
Babe Herman 2nd 18.92% 18.92% (1942) 18.92% (1942)
Harry Hooper 14th 18.92% 34.38% (1931) 8.82% (1940)
Rabbit Maranville 6th 56.76% 66.67% (1938) 56.76% (1942)
Firpo Marberry 3rd 8.11% 17.14% (1941) 8.11% (1942)
Carl Mays 10th 37.84% 56.25% (1937) 37.84% (1942)
Lefty O'Doul 5th 8.11% 12.50% (1939) 5.71% (1941)
Herb Pennock 5th 8.11% 25.00% (1939) 8.11% (1942)
Del Pratt 15th 8.11% 20.83% (1932) 5.88% (1940)
Sam Rice 5th 59.46% 71.43% (1941) 52.94% (1940)
Eppa Rixey 6th 51.35% 60.00% (1938) 50.00% (1940)
Ray Schalk 10th 16.22% 25.00% (1934) 16.22% (1942)
Wally Schang 8th 37.84% 42.86% (1941) 32.35% (1937)
Urban Schocker 11th 18.92% 35.71% (1933) 15.63% (1939)
Bobby Veach 14th 16.22% 39.29% (1934) 14.71% (1939)
Hack Wilson 5th 45.95% 57.14% (1941) 41.18% (1939)
Ross Youngs 13th 16.22% 22.86% (1941) 6.25% (1936)

Holdovers Dropped From Last Election (2)
Player Reason Years on Ballot High Support Low Support
Travis Jackson Lack of Support 2 5.71% (1941) 2.70% (1942)
Joe Judge Lack of Support 4 5.88% (1940) 2.70% (1942)

Last Year of Eligibility (2)
Player High Support
Larry Gardner 17.14% (1941)
Del Pratt 20.83% (1932)

Penultimate Year of Eligibility (3)
Player High Support
George J. Burns 24.00% (1930)
Harry Hooper 34.38% (1931)
Bobby Veach 39.29% (1934)

Holdovers Receiving At Least 50% in Previous Election (3)
Player Previous Support Years with At Least 50% Support
Rabbit Maranville 56.76% 5
Sam Rice 59.46% 4
Eppa Rixey 51.35% 5

Hall of Famers
Player Year Elected Election Percentage Years on Ballot Position Primary Team Active Years Total Seasons Living/Deceased Age at Election
Pete Alexander 1935 93.94% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1911-1930 20 Living - Age 56 48
Cap Anson 1902 100% 1 First Base Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1871-1897 27 Deceased (1852-1922) 50
Frank Baker 1927 96.43% 1 Third Base Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1908-1914, 1916-1919, 1921-1922 13 Living - Age 56 41
Ross Barnes^ 1911 76.00% 11 Second Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879, 1881 9 Deceased (1850-1915) 61
Jake Beckley 1917 76.00% 6 First Base Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1887-1907 20 Deceased (1867-1918) 50
Charlie Bennett 1907 75.00% 7 Catcher Detroit Wolverines (NL) 1878, 1880-1893 15 Deceased (1854-1927) 53
Roger Bresnahan 1925 79.17% 6 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1897, 1900-1915 17 Living - Age 62 46
Dan Brouthers 1901 90.00% 1 First Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1896, 1904 18 Deceased (1858-1932) 50
Mordecai Brown 1921 96.77% 1 Pitcher Chicago Cubs (NL) 1903-1916 14 Living - Age 67 45
Pete Browning 1909 77.27% 9 Left Field/Center Field Louisville Colonels (NL/AA) 1882-1894 13 Deceased (1861-1905) Deceased
Jesse Burkett 1910 92.00% 1 Left Field Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1890-1895 16 Living - Age 75 42
Max Carey 1934 82.14% 1 Center Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1910-1929 20 Living - Age 53 44
Bob Caruthers 1909 77.27% 9 Pitcher/Right Field St. Louis Browns (Cardinals) (NL/AA) 1884-1893 10 Deceased (1864-1911) 45
Frank Chance 1932 83.33% 14 First Base Chicago Cubs (NL) 1898-1914 17 Deceased (1876-1924) Deceased
Cupid Childs 1920 76.92% 15 Second Base Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1888, 1890-1901 13 Deceased (1867-1912) Deceased
Fred Clarke 1917 88.00% 1 Left Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1894-1915 21 Living - Age 75 45
John Clarkson 1901 90.00% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1882, 1884-1894 12 Deceased (1861-1909) 40
Ty Cobb 1933 96.55% 1 Center Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1905-1928 24 Living - Age 57 47
Mickey Cochrane 1942 89.19% 1 Catcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1925-1937 13 Living - Age 39 38
Eddie Collins 1935 96.67% 1 Second Base Chicago White Sox (AL) 1906-1930 25 Living - Age 56 48
Jimmy Collins 1913 82.61% 1 Third Base Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1895-1908 14 Living - Age 73 43
Roger Connor 1902 79.17% 1 First Base New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Deceased (1857-1931) 45
Stan Covaleski 1934 89.29% 2 Pitcher Cleveland Indians (AL) 1912, 1916-1928 14 Living - Age 54 45
Sam Crawford 1922 92.86% 1 Right Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1899-1917 19 Living - Age 63 41
Bill Dahlen 1916 88.00% 1 Shortstop Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1891-1911 21 Living - Age 73 46
George Davis 1914 84.62% 1 Shortstop New York Giants (NL) 1890-1909 20 Deceased (1870-1940) 44
Ed Delahanty 1908 96.00% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1903 16 Deceased (1867-1903) Deceased
Larry Doyle 1926 76.00% 2 Second Base New York Giants (NL) 1907-1920 14 Living - Age 57 40
Hugh Duffy 1918 75.00% 8 Center Field/Outfield Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1888-1891, 1904-1906 17 Living - Age 77 52
Buck Ewing 1902 83.33% 1 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Deceased (1859-1906) 43
Red Faber 1940 76.46% 3 Pitcher Chicago White Sox (AL) 1914-1933 20 Living - Age 55 52
Elmer Flick 1916 80.00% 1 Right Field Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1898-1910 13 Living - Age 67 40
Frankie Frisch 1942 91.89% 1 Second Base New York Giants (NL) 1919-1937 19 Living - Age 44 43
Pud Galvin 1903 80.77% 3 Pitcher Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1875, 1879-1892 15 Deceased (1856-1902) Deceased
Jack Glasscock 1911 84.00% 11 Shortstop Cleveland Blues (NL) 1879-1895 17 Living - Age 86 54
George Gore 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1879-1892 14 Deceased (1867-1933) 52
Clark Griffith* 1940 (VC) 78.57% VC Pitcher Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1891, 1893-1909, 1912-1914 20 Living - Age 74 71
Heinie Groh 1936 81.25% 5 Third Base Cincinnati Reds (NL) 1912-1927 16 Living - Age 54 47
Billy Hamilton 1906 82.61% 1 Center Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1901 14 Deceased (1866-1940) 40
Harry Heilmann 1937 96.18% 1 Right Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1914, 1916-1930, 1932 17 Living - Age 49 43
Paul Hines 1904 76.00% 4 Center Field Providence Grays (NL) 1872-1891 20 Deceased (1855-1935) 49
Rogers Hornsby 1942 97.30% 1 Second Base St. Louis Cardinals (NL) 1915-1937 23 Living - Age 46 45
Hughie Jennings 1927 75.00% 14 Shortstop Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1891-1903, 1907, 1909, 1912, 1918 17 Deceased (1869-1928) 58
Walter Johnson 1932 100% 1 Pitcher Washington Senators (AL) 1907-1927 21 Living - Age 56 45
Addie Joss 1926 76.00% 15 Pitcher Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1902-1910 9 Deceased (1880-1911) Deceased
Tim Keefe 1901 75.00% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1893 14 Deceased (1857-1933) 44
Willie Keeler 1916 92.00% 2 Right Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1892-1910 19 Deceased (1872-1923) 44
Joe Kelley 1920 84.62% 8 Left Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1891-1906, 1908 17 Living - Age 71 49
King Kelly 1902 75.00% 2 Right Field/Catcher Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1878-1893 16 Deceased (1857-1894) Deceased
Napoleon Lajoie 1921 96.77% 1 Second Base Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1896-1916 21 Living - Age 69 47
Tommy Leach* 1940 (VC) 85.71% VC Third Base/Center Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1898-1915, 1918 19 Living - Age 66 63
Herman Long* 1925 (VC) 75.00% VC Shortstop Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1889-1904 16 Deceased (1866-1909) Deceased
Sherry Magee 1924 86.21% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1904-1919 16 Deceased (1884-1929) 40
Christy Mathewson 1922 93.55% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1900-1916 17 Deceased (1880-1925) 41
Joe McGinnity 1913 91.30% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1899-1908 10 Deceased (1871-1929) 42
Bid McPhee 1905 75.00% 2 Second Base Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1882-1899 18 Deceased (1859-1943) 42
Cal McVey*^ 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Catcher/First Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879 9 Deceased (1849-1926) 71
Tony Mullane 1908 80.00% 8 Pitcher Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1881-1894 14 Living - Age 83 49
Kid Nichols 1911 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1890-1901, 1904-1906 15 Living - Age 74 42
Jim O'Rourke 1901 90.00% 1 Left Field/Utility New York Giants (NL) 1872-1893, 1904 23 Deceased (1850-1919) 51
Dickey Pearce*^ 1920 (VC) 100% VC Shortstop Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) 1871-1877 6 Deceased (1836-1908) Deceased
Lip Pike*^ 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Center Field Baltimore Canaries (NA) 1871-1878, 1881, 1887 10 Deceased (1845-1926) Deceased
Eddie Plank 1922 92.86% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1901-1917 17 Deceased (1875-1926) 47
Charley Radbourn 1901 95.00% 1 Pitcher Providence Grays (NL) 1881-1891 11 Deceased (1854-1897) Deceased
Hardy Richardson* 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC Second Base/Left Field Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1892 14 Deceased (1855-1931) 65
Amos Russie 1906 78.26% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1889-1895, 1897-1898, 1901 10 Deceased (1871-1942) 35
Babe Ruth 1940 97.06% 1 Right Field/Left Field New York Yankees (AL) 1914-1935 22 Living - Age 48 45
Jimmy Ryan* 1930 (VC) 86.67% VC Center Field Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1885-1900, 1902, 1903 18 Deceased (1863-1923) Deceased
Joe Sewell 1942 75.68% 5 Shortstop/Third Base Cleveland Indians (AL) 1920-1933 14 Living - Age 44 43
George Sisler 1935 90.91% 1 First Base St. Louis Browns (AL) 1915-1922, 1924-1930 15 Living - Age 50 42
Al Spalding^ 1915 80.00% 15 Pitcher Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1878 8 Deceased (1850-1915) Deceased
Tris Speaker 1933 100% 1 Center Field Cleveland Indians (AL) 1907-1928 22 Living - Age 55 45
Joe Start*^ 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC First Base Providence Grays (NL) 1871-1886 16 Deceased (1842-1927) 78
Harry Stovey 1907 75.00% 7 Left Field/First Base Philadelphia Athletics (AA) 1880-1893 14 Deceased (1856-1931) 51
Ezra Sutton* 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Third Base Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1871-1888 18 Deceased (1850-1907) Deceased
Bill Terry 1941 80.00% 1 First Base New York Giants (NL) 1923-1936 14 Living - Age 45 43
Sam Thompson 1907 79.17% 5 Right Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1885-1898, 1906 14 Deceased (1860-1922) 47
Pie Traynor 1942 83.78% 1 Third Base Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1920-1937 18 Living - Age 43 42
Dazzy Vance 1940 76.47% 1 Pitcher Brooklyn Robins (Dodgers) (NL) 1915, 1918, 1922-1935 16 Living - Age 51 48
George Van Haltren 1918 75.00% 11 Center Field New York Giants (NL) 1887-1903 17 Living - Age 77 52
Rube Waddell 1915 84.00% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1897, 1899-1910 13 Deceased (1876-1914) Deceased
Honus Wagner 1922 92.86% 1 Shortstop Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1897-1917 21 Living - Age 67 48
Bobby Wallace 1925 75.00% 3 Shortstop St. Louis Browns (AL) 1894-1918 25 Living - Age 68 52
Ed Walsh 1922 89.29% 1 Pitcher Chicago White Sox (AL) 1904-1917 14 Living - Age 62 41
John Ward 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop/Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1878-1894 17 Deceased (1860-1925) 47
Mickey Welsh* 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1892 13 Deceased (1859-1941) 61
Zack Wheat 1932 87.50% 1 Left Field Brooklyn Robins (Dodgers) (NL) 1909-1927 10 Living - Age 55 44
Deacon White 1904 76.00% 4 Catcher/Third Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1871-1890 20 Deceased (1847-1939) 57
Vic Willis 1919 77.78% 5 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1898-1910 13 Living - Age 67 43
George Wright^ 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1882 12 Deceased (1847-1937) 60
Cy Young 1916 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1890-1911 22 Living - Age 76 49

* = Elected by Veterans Committee
^ = Played Significantly Prior to 1871

Players Elected by Primary Position
Catcher (6): Charlie Bennett, Roger Bresnahan, Mickey Cochrane, Buck Ewing, Cal McVey, Deacon White
First Base (8): Cap Anson, Jake Beckley, Dan Brouthers, Frank Chance, Roger Connor, George Sisler, Joe Start, Bill
Terry
Second Base (9): Ross Barnes, Cupid Childs, Eddie Collins, Larry Doyle, Frankie Frisch, Rogers Hornsby, Napoleon
Lajoie, Bid McPhee, Hardy Richardson
Third Base (6): Frank Baker, Jimmy Collins, Heinie Groh, Tommy Leach, Ezra Sutton, Pie Traynor
Shortstop (10): Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Jack Glasscock, Hughie Jennings, Herman Long, Dickey Pearce, Honus
Wagner, Bobby Wallace, John Ward, George Wright
Left Field (8): Jesse Burkett, Fred Clarke, Ed Delahanty, Joe Kelley, Sherry Magee, Jim O'Rourke, Harry Stovey, Zack
Wheat
Center Field (11): Pete Browning, Max Carey, Ty Cobb, Hugh Duffy, George Gore, Billy Hamilton, Paul Hines, Lip Pike,
Jimmy Ryan, Tris Speaker, George Van Haltren
Right Field (7): Sam Crawford, King Kelly, Elmer Flick, Harry Heilmann, Willie Keeler, Babe Ruth, Sam Thompson
Pitcher (25): Pete Alexander, Mordecai Brown, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Stan Coveleski, Red Faber, Pud Galvin,
Clark Griffith, Walter Johnson, Addie Joss, Tim Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Tony Mullane, Kid Nichols, Eddie
Plank, Charley Radbourn, Amos Rusie, Al Spalding, Dazzy Vance, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh, Mickey Welch, Vic Willis, Cy Young

Players Elected by Year
1901 (5): Dan Brouthers, John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn
1902 (4): Cap Anson, Roger Connor, Buck Ewing, King Kelly
1903 (1): Pud Galvin
1904 (2): Paul Hines, Deacon White
1905 (1): Bid McPhee
1906 (2): Billy Hamilton, Amos Rusie
1907 (5): Charlie Bennett, Harry Stovey, Sam Thompson, John Ward, George Wright
1908 (2): Ed Delahanty, Tony Mullane
1909 (3): Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, George Gore
1910 (1): Jesse Burkett
1911 (3): Ross Barnes, Jack Glasscock, Kid Nichols
1912 (0):
1913 (2): Jimmy Collins, Joe McGinnity
1914 (1): George Davis
1915 (2): Al Spalding, Rube Waddell
1916 (4): Bill Dahlen, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Cy Young
1917 (2): Jake Beckley, Fred Clarke
1918 (2): Hugh Duffy, George Van Haltren
1919 (1): Vic Willis
1920 (2): Cupid Childs, Joe Kelley
- 1920 VC (7): Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Hardy Richardson, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Mickey Welch
1921 (3): Mordecai Brown, Napoleon Lajoie, Christy Mathewson
1922 (4): Sam Crawford, Eddie Plank, Honus Wagner, Ed Walsh
1923 (0):
1924 (1): Sherry Magee
1925 (2): Roger Bresnahan, Bobby Wallace
- 1925 VC (1): Herman Long
1926 (1): Larry Doyle
1927 (2): Frank Baker, Hughie Jennings
1928 (0):
1929 (1): Addie Joss[/b]
1930 (0):
- 1930 VC (1): Jimmy Ryan
1931 (0):
1932 (3): Frank Chance, Walter Johnson, Zack Wheat
1933 (2): Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker
1934 (2): Max Carey, Stan Coveleski
1935 (3): Pete Alexander, Eddie Collins, George Sisler
- 1935 VC (0):
1936 (1): Heinie Groh
1937 (1): Harry Heilmann
1938 (0):
1939 (0):
1940 (3): Red Faber, Babe Ruth, Dazzy Vance
- 1940 VC (2): Clark Griffith, Tommy Leach
1941 (1): Bill Terry
1942 (5): Mickey Cochrane, Frankie Frisch, Rogers Hornsby, Joe Sewell, Pie Traynor

Players Elected by Primary Decade
1870s (9): Ross Barnes, Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Al Spalding, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Deacon White, George Wright
1880s (21): Cap Anson, Charlie Bennett, Dan Brouthers, Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Roger Conner, Buck Ewing, Pud Galvin, Jack Glasscock, George Gore, Paul Hines, Tim Keefe, King Kelly, Tony Mullane, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn, Hardy Richardson, Harry Stovey, John Ward, Mickey Welch
1890s (18): Jake Beckley, Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs, Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Ed Delahanty, Hugh Duffy, Clark Griffith, Billy Hamilton, Hughie Jennings, Joe Kelley, Herman Long, Bid McPhee, Kid Nichols, Jimmy Ryan, Amos Rusie, Sam Thompson, George Van Haltren
1900s (20): Roger Bresnahan, Mordecai Brown, Frank Chance, Fred Clarke, Jimmy Collins, Sam Crawford, Elmer Flick,
Addie Joss, Willie Keeler, Napoleon Lajoie, Tommy Leach, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Eddie Plank, Rube Waddell, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, Ed Walsh, Vic Willis, Cy Young
1910s (12): Pete Alexander, Frank Baker, Max Carey, Ty Cobb, EddieCollins, Larry Doyle, Heinie Groh, Walter Johnson, Sherry Magee, Tris Speaker, Zack Wheat
1920s (10): Stan Coveleski, Red Faber, Frankie Frisch, Harry Heilmann, Rogers Hornsby, Babe Ruth, George Sisler, Joe Sewell, Pie Traynor, Dazzy Vance
1930s (2): Mickey Cochrane, Bill Terry

Players Elected by Primary Organization
Baltimore Canaries (NA) (1): Lip Pike
Baltimore Orioles (NL) (3): Hughie Jennings, Willie Keeler, Joe Kelley
Boston Braves (fka Beaneaters) (NL) (6): John Clarkson, Hugh Duffy, Herman Long, Kid Nichols, Ezra Sutton, Vic
Willis
Boston Red Sox (fka Americans) (AL) (2): Jimmy Collins, Cy Young
Boston Red Stockings (NA) (4): Ross Barnes, Cal McVey, Al Spalding, George Wright
Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) (1): Dickey Pearce
Brooklyn Dodgers (fka Robins) (2): Dazzy Vance, Zack Wheat
Buffalo Bisons (NL) (4): Dan Brouthers, Pud Galvin, Hardy Richardson, Deacon White
Chicago Cubs (fka White Stockings, Colts) (NL) (8): Cap Anson, Mordecai Brown, Frank Chance, Bill Dahlen, Clark
Grifith, George Gore, King Kelly, Jimmy Ryan
Chicago White Sox (AL) (3): Eddie Collins, Red Faber, Ed Walsh
Cincinnati Reds (NL, AA) (3): Heinie Groh, Bid McPhee, Tony Mullane
Cleveland Blues (NL) (1): Jack Glasscock
Cleveland Indians (fka Naps) (AL) (6): Stan Coveleski, Elmer Flick, Addie Joss, Napoleon Lajoie, Joe Sewell, Tris
Speaker
Cleveland Spiders (NL) (2): Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs
Detroit Tigers (AL) (3): Ty Cobb, Sam Crawford, Harry Heilmann
Detroit Wolverines (NL) (1): Charlie Bennett
Louisville Colonels (NL, AA) (1): Pete Browning
New York Giants (NL) (14): Roger Bresnahan, Roger Connor, George Davis, Larry Doyle, Buck Ewing, Frankie Frisch, Tim
Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Jim O’Rourke, Amos Rusie, George Van Haltren, John Ward, Mickey Welch
Philadelphia Athletics (AL) (4): Frank Baker, Mickey Cochrane, Eddie Plank, Rube Waddell
Philadelphia Athletics (AA) (1): Harry Stovey
Philadelphia Phillies (NL) (5): Pete Alexander, Ed Delahanty, Billy Hamilton, Sherry Magee, Sam Thompson
Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) (6): Jake Beckley, Max Carey, Fred Clarke, Tommy Leach, Pie Traynor, Honus Wagner
Providence Grays (NL) (3): Paul Hines, Charley Radbourn, Joe Start
St. Louis Browns (AL) (2): George Sisler, Bobby Wallace
St. Louis Cardinals (fka Browns) (NL, AA) (2): Bob Caruthers, Rogers Hornsby
Washington Senators (AL) (1): Walter Johnson

Miscellaneous Information
- Highest Regular Election Percentage: Cap Anson, Walter Johnson, Kid Nichols, Tris Speaker, Cy Young – 100%
- Number of 1st Ballot Electees: 45
- Most Years on Ballot Before Election: Cupid Childs, Addie Joss, Al Spalding – 15
- Number of Players Elected After 10 Years on Ballot: 8
- Number of Players Lasting 15 Years on Ballot without Election: 28
- Number of Players Elected by Veterans Committee: 11
- Highest Percentage Among Players Not Elected: 71.43% - Sam Rice (1941)
- Most Regular Election Electees in One Year: 5 (1901, 1907)
- Fewest Regular Election Electees in One Year: 0 (1912, 1923, 1928, 1930, 1931, 1938, 1939)
- Largest Ballot: 78 Players (1901)
- Largest Post-1915 Ballot: 47 Players (1932)
- Smallest Ballot: 23 Players (1918)
- Most Votes Cast: 37 (1942)
- Fewest Votes Cast: 20 (1901)
- Team With Most Players Elected: New York Giants - 14
- Team With Second Most Players Elected: Chicago Cubs - 8
- Electee with Longest Post-1871 Career: Cap Anson – 27 Seasons
- Electee with Shortest Post-1871 Career: Dickey Pearce – 8 Seasons
- Youngest Elected Player: Amos Rusie – Age 35
- Oldest Elected Player: Joe Start – 78
- Number of Posthumously Elected Players: 15
- Number of Living Hall of Famers: 44
- Oldest Living Hall of Famer: Jack Glasscock - 86
- Deceased in Past Year: Bid McPhee

Number of Ballots Submitted in Past Elections
1901: 20
1902: 24
1903: 26
1904: 25
1905: 24
1906: 23
1907: 24
1908: 25
1909: 22
1910: 25
1911: 25
1912: 23
1913: 23
1914: 26
1915: 25
1916: 25
1917: 25
1918: 24
1919: 27
1920: 26
1921: 31
1922: 28
1923: 25
1924: 29
1925: 24
1926: 25
1927: 28
1928: 27
1929: 25
1930: 25
1931: 32
1932: 24
1933: 29
1934: 28
1935: 33
1936: 32
1937: 34
1938: 30
1939: 32
1940: 34
1941: 35
1942: 37

Links to Past Elections
1901 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77167)
1902 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77464)
1903 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77797)
1904 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78133)
1905 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78417)
1906 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78737)
1907 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79020)
1908 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79393)
1909 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79738)
1910 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80134)
1911 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80597)
1912 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81008)
1913 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81477)
1914 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81965)
1915 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82365)
1916 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82681)
1917 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82940)
1918 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83241)
1919 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83422)
1920 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83665), 1920 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php? t=83697)
1921 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83924)
1922 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84099)
1923 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84257)
1924 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84423)
1925 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84552), 1925 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?
t=84636)
1926 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84727)
1927 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84871)
1928 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85029)
1929 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85206)
1930 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85358), 1930 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?
t=85439)
1931 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85681)
1932 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85850)
1933 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86054)
1934 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86291)
1935 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86514), 1935 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php? t=86576)
1936 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86747)
1937 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87002)
1938 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87241)
1939 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87501)
1940 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87800), 1940 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php? t=87854)
1941 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=88041)
1942 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=88297)

[Ace Venom]

I brought it back for you a few days earlier than I said I wouldn't. I couldn't see holding off until then.

[Brad Harris]

Bancroft
Cooper
Grimes
Goslin
Maranville
Mays
Pennock
Rice
Rixey
Roush
Schang
Shocker
Veach
Wilson
Youngs

[philkid3]

Holy cow! I'm a little amazed to see an actual Hall of Famer (Jackson) drop off the ballot so quickly. Not that I have a problem with it, it's just a little surprising.

[philkid3]

Goslin, Goose
Grimes, Burleigh
Maranville, Rabbit
Rice, Sam
Schang, Wally
Veach, Bobby
Youngs, Ross

You're the man, Ace.

[PVNICK]

Bancroft
Cooper
Cuyler
Goslin
Grimes
Maranville
Mays
Rice
Rixey
Roush
Schalk
Schang
Shocker
Youngs

Please give a closer look to Cooper and Shocker. While they did not rise to the level of Alexander or the Big Train. After Coveleski or Vance there were none whose star shone brighter from the teens to the late 20s, though some of the other men on this ballot like Mays were right there along with Hippo Vaughn. Don't hold it against them if they don't have the win totals of the pitchers of the past century who had many more opportunties pitching with two or three men per rotation. Nor hold it against them that they did not rise to the levels of Johnson or Alex. They were among the very best at what they did when and while they did it and deserrve a place in our hall.

[Ace Venom]

I used this argument for Mays in 1942:

W-L: 207-126 (.622)
G: 490
GS: 325
CG: 231
SHO: 29
GF: 125
BB: 734
SO: 862
ERA: 2.92 (lgERA was 3.49)

League Leader:
Wins (1921)
W-L% (1921)
Games (1921)
IP (1921)
Complete Games (1918, 1926)
Shutouts (1918, 1920)

Black Ink: 23
Gray Ink: 172

Mays scores a 114 on the HOF Monitor. He was a top ten finisher in ERA six times, seven times for wins, six times for W-L%, six times for IP, four times for shutouts and only twice for losses. He also won both his decisions in the 1918 World Series against the Cubs, both complete game victories and a 1.00 ERA in both games. He was also good with the bat, hitting .268 for his career with 110 RBI and 5 home runs. In 1921 with the Yankees, he had his best year with the bat, hitting .343 with 22 RBI, 2 home runs, five doubles and a triple. It is for all these reasons he gets my vote.

I'd also like to note that Mays has 237.1 win shares, which in total is comparable to someone in this hall named Dazzy Vance. Vance has 240.6. He certainly has a lot of aspects about him that stand out.

[jjpm74]

1943 ballot:

Wilbur Cooper--seems to fit our standard well

Kiki Cuyler--Whether or not he stays beyond this year depends on the discussion surrounding him and how convincing it is. His raw numbers are great. His advanced metrics are middling.

Larry Gardner--Discussion in 1941 and 1942 and comparisons to 3Bmen in our HOF convinced me to vote for Gardner in his 15th year of eligibility.

Burleigh Grimes--Seems to fit our pitcher standard

Goose Goslin--Should cruise right in on his first try.

Waite Hoyt--Voting for him based primarily on his longevity and consistency. He's far from safe and could benefit from some discussion.

Rabbit Maranville--The best defensive player at the most defensive position who also happened to be valuable offensively.

Sam Rice--Despite a late career start, Rice enjoyed a productive career into his 40s. He would have ended up with over 3000 hits had that milestone meant something at the time of his retirement.

Edd Roush--Should be a no brainer, but we shall see,

Wally Schang--Second only to Bresnahan in his generation.

Urban Shocker--Had an amazing peak despute a short career.

[Ace Venom]

Jim Bottomley: Sunny Jim holds the record for most unassisted double plays at first base and most RBI in a single game. He led the league twice in RBI, having 100+ RBI seasons from 1924 to 1929. He also netted the MVP award in 1928, one of five seasons where he received votes. He led the league in hits once, total bases twice, doubles twice, triples once and home runs once. Modern metrics may not be entirely favorable to him, but he had it.

Kiki Cuyler: Another player not helped by some modern metrics, but it's hard for me to argue that he was invaluable. He hit .321 for his career and received MVP votes in four seasons. He led the league in runs scored twice, doubles once, triples once and stolen bases four times. He's a bit marginal to me, but he gets my vote.

Larry Gardner: I've noted my support for him before in previous years, so he still gets my vote in his final year of eligibility.

Burleigh Grimes: Likely a victim of a career pushed beyond necessity, he makes it on the Gray Ink and Hall of Fame Monitor. He posted a personal .248 batting average as well, which is not as good as Carl Mays. He keeps my support.

Goose Goslin: Does he need explanation?

Rabbit Maranville: A seemingly underrated defender at a tough position (shortstop) that could also hit, reaching a grand total of 2,605 hits. He defended better at his position than the rest of the league.

Carl Mays: I posted my reasons earlier.

Sam Rice: He came pretty close to election in 1941 and probably would have made it in had he managed to clear the 3,000 hit mark. He wasn't far off. He could also hit for extra bases pretty well, but not a lot of home runs. He also makes it on most of the yardsticks.

Edd Roush: His batting average, hit totals and extra base totals look good, as does his OBP and SLG. For the era he played in, he belongs.

Hack Wilson: Amazing peak followed by an even more amazing downfall. He set a league record for home runs in a single season at 56 and a major league record for RBI at 191. Records alone shouldn't get a guy in, but his peak is hard to dispute. He led the league in home runs four times, RBI twice, walks twice, slugging percentage once, OPS once and adjsuted OPS+ once (178). He had it and it's a shame he fell apart the way he did.

[NineWorldSeries]

Bottomley
Cuyler (borderline)
Grimes
Mays
Rice
Wilson

For once I completely spaced and didn't vote for Goose Goslin, even though I really wanted to.

Ace, is there any way to add another vote for him, please? :pray:

[Brad Harris]

1943 ballot:

Wilbur Cooper--seems to fit our standard well

Urban Shocker--Had an amazing peak despute a short career.

I think Carl Mays has a stronger case than either of these two. I'm curious, since they're contemporaries, why you included these two, but not Mays? Are you holding "the pitch that killed" against him?

[Ace Venom]

For once I completely spaced and didn't vote for Goose Goslin, even though I really wanted to.

Ace, is there any way to add another vote for him, please? :pray:

Fire an email to jalbright. He's volunteered to help in these matters.

[Ace Venom]

I think Carl Mays has a stronger case than either of these two.

I have to agree with you on this one. One of the things that helps me lean towards Mays and not Shocker or Cooper is the fact that Mays are his yardsticks and the fact that he could hit. Mays beats Shocker in ERA and he tops Cooper in W-L%. Cooper also loses to Mays in ERA+. I've been overlooking Cooper for a while, but I think he may have a case.

[jalbright]

For once I completely spaced and didn't vote for Goose Goslin, even though I really wanted to.

Ace, is there any way to add another vote for him, please? :pray:

Taken care of.

[jalbright]

Cooper
Goslin
Grimes
Maranville
Mays
Rice, S.
Rixey
Wilson, H.

[jjpm74]

I think Carl Mays has a stronger case than either of these two. I'm curious, since they're contemporaries, why you included these two, but not Mays? Are you holding "the pitch that killed" against him?


I had Mays on my ballot and asked several years in a row for a favorable argument for him that compares him to our current HOF pitchers+ Cooper and Shocker. Since all I heard in return was the sound of crickets, I dropped him from my ballot. I dropped Rixey for the same reason and will likely drop Hoyt next year unless someone steps up and presents his case. Posting convincing arguments does change opinions on borderline players and my ballot is definitely not written in stone. ;)

[Ace Venom]

Posting convincing arguments does change opinions on borderline players and my ballot is definitely not written in stone. ;)

See post #7, which is a quote from one of my posts in the 1942 thread. That's the argument I presented on Mays.

[jjpm74]

See post #7, which is a quote from one of my posts in the 1942 thread. That's the argument I presented on Mays.

That does not make a comparison to Cooper or Shocker or the pitchers in our current HOF outside of a passing CWS comparison to Vance.

[BigRon]

Cuyler
Grimes
Goslin
Maranville
Mays
Rice
Roush


I'm basically a believer that a guy either belongs or doesn't, and waiting and voting the 4th or 10th or 15th time is inappropriate. That said, I'm really torn about several guys, and left them off. The pitchers like Cooper, Shocker, Rixey are cases in point.

Also troublesome for me is Wilson, who I know a lot about. By the way, he was born just up the road from my home town. Wilson's peak years are undebatable- the problem is, there was essentially NOTHING else. Still thinking about him.

I don't sympathize with a lot of HOF voters, because I think a lot of them have been lazy or politicized. BUT- it can be really tough to make a good decision.

[KCGHOST]

Goslin
Rixey
Roush
Shocker

[Cowtipper]

I thought I'd vote for the max this time around:

Bottomley
Burns
Combs
Cooper
Cuyler
Goslin
Hafey
Maranville
Mays
Pratt
Rice
Roush
Shocker
Veach
Youngs

[Ace Venom]

That does not make a comparison to Cooper or Shocker or the pitchers in our current HOF outside of a passing CWS comparison to Vance.

Player W-L SO ERA CG SHO IP BB ERA+ WHIP
Carl Mays 207-126 862 2.92 231 29 3021.1 734 120 1.207
Urban Shocker 187-117 983 3.17 200 28 2681.1 657 124 1.255
Wilbur Cooper 216-178 1252 2.89 279 35 3480.0 853 116 1.226

Doing a side by side comparison in ERA plus, Mays beats Cooper. A side by side comparison to how good they were compared to the rest of the league reveals that Mays was 0.58 earned runs allowed better than the rest of the league while Cooper was about 0.47 ER allowed better, which is likely not a significant difference. Shocker beats Mays in ERA+ and he was 0.70 ER better than the rest of the league, which is slightly better than Mays. Shocker did it in more IP and had more strikeouts with less walks. It accounts for his WHIP, but not the winning percentage. This is where Mays clearly beats Shocker's .548 W-L% with his own .622 W-L%.

Which pitcher was more valuable? Coming down to the defensive battle, Cooper's RF/G (1.72) was only 0.12 better than the rest of the league and his FP was actually 0.01 less, but not what I'd consider statistically different (making him average in that department). Shocker's RF/G (1.83) is 0.30 better than the lgRF/G and his FP was 0.026 points better than the rest of the league. When looking at Carl Mays, his 2.68 RF/G is not only significantly higher than the others, his total was 1.11 above the lgRF/G. He beats them all in putouts, assists and double plays turned (also errors). His FP is 0.015 better than the lgFP.

Player BA H XBH RBI OPS+
Carl Mays .268 291 58 111 82
Urban Shocker .209 167 27 70 55
Wilbuer Cooper .239 293 57 106 61

A hitting pitcher is a good asset to have. Mays could hit and he did it better than Shocker and Cooper. While it is important to lay down a bunt and sacrifice players into scoring position or to let them score, it's also useful to hit singles and the occasional extra base hit. Mays also beats them in OPS+.

So who wins? I've taken time to compare them all and I have to say there is no clear winner. Cooper and Mays definitely look like they have a good case as opposed to Shocker. In my opinion, Shocker falls short.

[Sockeye]

Jim Bottomley
George J. Burns
Kiki Cuyler
Burleigh Grimes
Goose Goslin
Babe Herman
Sam Rice
Edd Roush
Bobby Veach
Hack Wilson

[AstrosFan]

Goslin
Grimes
Rixey

[jalbright]

Here's some stuff that I put over in the Mistakes project rather than here (Please note that the Pennock material becomes especially relevant to Mays and Cooper):

Herb Pennock

He's shy in the inks (162nd in Black and 85th in Gray) and standards (89th), which all tend to indicate he doesn't belong. His career win shares total is borderline (70th), which doesn't really change the above. He did get in via the BBWAA, which is a plus, so we'll compare him to his contemporaries in the 1920's:


Pitcher.... career best3 5Consecutive
Alexander 476 127 180
Faber...... 292 93 118
Grimes...... 286 91 113
Rixey...... 315 76 118
S Coveleski 245 90 142
Vance..... 241 94 124
Hoyt....... 262 69 100
Haines..... 207 67 80
Pennock.... 240 73 108
Cooper..... 266 85 133
Mays...... 256 90 140
Luque..... 241 89 121
Shocker.... 225 94 138
Uhle........ 231 84 106
Shawkey.... 223 81 105
Rommel.... 209 73 114


The HOFers are Pennock and above, and we've included Carl Mays in the BBF HOF. I'm fine with Mays, and the top six names. I think Hoyt and Haines are mistakes. I think this comparison definitely favors Cooper and Mays as well as Luque and Shocker to Pennock. This era seems well stocked if we drew the line between Cooper/Mays and Hoyt/Pennock/Uhle/Shawkey/Rommel/Luque/Shocker, and so I think Pennock should be on the outside.

I'm sympathetic to being sensitive to the fact a guy was elected by the BBWAA. I have to be quite convinced the pick was a mistake to have the chutzpah to say so. Pennock qualifies. If you disagree, I'd say I've given you some strong reasons to consider Mays and Cooper, who are rather clearly better.

I wrote the following about Mays, which, combined with the above chart, may give you at least an idea as to why I support him:

Carl Mays

He's right inside HOF territory in career win shares among pitchers, gray ink and HOF standards (69th, 65th and 65th, respectively) and close to the mark in black ink at 74th. He also finished in the top ten in ERA six times; the top ten in winning percentage six times (leading once); in the top six in wins seven times (leading once), and the top 10 in WHIP eight times.


As for Cooper, I'd ask you to consider this post (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=545954&postcount=283), which combines a few of my thoughts with a thoughtful Keltner list by AG2004.

Some of this stuff is not be "in character", but I hope you'll forgive that.

[Ace Venom]

Slipping out of character for a moment, it seems like I have some bad information for win shares. I'm going to be fixing my post shortly.

[jjpm74]

Some of this stuff is not be "in character", but I hope you'll forgive that.

I've been using Keltners, gray ink, black ink, win shares, ERA+ since the beginning of this project. I'm also not trying to unlearn anything. I'm just giving the era more scrutiny in this project and having some fun roll playing as someone who's creating a HOF based on standards set here in this project.

I'm happy to see you're still involved in this project and hope you continue to be, Jim. :thumbsup:

[jalbright]

I've been using Keltners, gray ink, black ink, win shares, ERA+ since the beginning of this project. I'm also not trying to unlearn anything. I'm just giving the era more scrutiny in this project and having some fun roll playing as someone who's creating a HOF based on standards set here in this project.

I'm happy to see you're still involved in this project and hope you continue to be, Jim. :thumbsup:

I still look beyond the time period in question (all time placements in my post, for instance), and our current project "manager" is OK with that. So long as that's the case, I'll be around. That said, if others want to have fun with the role playing, I'm not trying to rain on that parade. I try to conform my arguments to accomodate that, but it's not easy to do sometimes.

[jjpm74]

I still look beyond the time period in question (all time placements in my post, for instance), and our current project "manager" is OK with that. So long as that's the case, I'll be around. That said, if others want to have fun with the role playing, I'm not trying to rain on that parade. I try to conform my arguments to accomodate that, but it's not easy to do sometimes.

To be perfectly honest with you, whether or not you are taking the future into consideration, you already take era into consideration in all your arguments both here and in other projects, so you actually aren't that far off from what DoubleX was driving at to begin with. ;)

[RyanExpress30]

1 Goslin
2 Bottomley
3 Cuyler
4 Roush
5 Wilson
6 Herman
7 Combs

[Domenic]

How someone can vote for Mays but not Rixey is beyond me - I've been saying this for several elections, now, and will continue to do so!

By win shares:
Mays - 256
Rixey - 315

By win shares above bench (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/statpages/glossary/#wsab):
Mays - 168
Rixey - 183

By ERA+:
Mays - 120
Rixey - 115

By FIP:
Mays - 3.27
Rixey - 3.28

By IP:
Mays - 3021.1
Rixey - 4494.2

The only pitching advantages that I see for Mays lay in ERA+ and FIP (barely) - which is certainly mitigated (if not removed) due to Rixey's tremendous advantage in IP. Further, if Rixey had not missed the entirety of the 1918 season, his WS and WSAB advantages would likely be much greater.

To be sure, Mays was a much better hitter, which cannot be discounted. At the same time, though, I perceive Rixey's pitching advantages to be overwhelming.

[Ace Venom]

Domenic, thank you for that informative post. You convinced me to vote for Rixey next year.

[Ubiquitous]

Eppa played in the weaker NL his entire career. Despite playing in the weaker league he never ever led the league in ERA, SO, CG, BB/9, H/9, or WHIP. He finishes once with the most innings pitched and once in wins.

Yes he pitched forever but he was rarely ever dominant and had a quite a few mediocre seasons and subpar seasons as well throughout his career.

[Domenic]

Eppa played in the weaker NL his entire career. Despite playing in the weaker league he never ever led the league in ERA, SO, CG, BB/9, H/9, or WHIP. He finishes once with the most innings pitched and once in wins.

Yes he pitched forever but he was rarely ever dominant and had a quite a few mediocre seasons and subpar seasons as well throughout his career.

I'm not necessarily arguing Eppa Rixey for the Hall of Fame - rather, I'm arguing against voting for Mays and not Rixey.

On the whole, Mays was on better teams than Rixey, pitching for the fantastic Red Sox and Yankees teams of the late-1910s and early-1920s. Those teams won 101, 91, 90, 75 (in a shortened season), 80 (shortened season), 95, 98, 94, and 98 games. The only time Mays was on a middling team came when he was on the same Reds teams as Rixey. While Rixey didn't pitch for entirely horrible teams, he did not enjoy the same level of support that Mays did, which accounts for his comparatively weak seasonal win totals.

While Rixey was never really dominant, neither was Mays. On the whole, though, Rixey was more valuable - this is reflected in WS and WSAB, in my opinion.

[Ubiquitous]

Eppa pitched about 1500 more winnings and once you factor in replacement level he has about a 15 win share lead on Mays. That is nothing, actually it isn't. It really shows you just how mediocre Eppa's career was. Basically Eppa for each 100 extra innings above Mays earned 1 win share. I also mention again that Eppa played his entire career in a weaker league. Win Shares does not handle this fact at all.

Neither are great pitchers and yeah if you think Mays is great then Eppa isn't really that far behind. But the only reason Eppa enters into any conversation is because he pitched forever in an era that in part was extremely favorable to pitchers and in leagues that had only 8 teams. Yet despite the fact that he had so few competitors for the top spot he never finished number 1. To me he is like a Mike Morgan or Steve Trachsel.

[Senor Octobre]

Cooper, Wilbur
Goslin, Goose
Herman, Babe
Hooper, Harry
Maranville, Rabbit
Mays, Carl
Rice, Sam
Rixey, Eppa
Roush, Edd
Schang, Wally
Shocker, Urban
Wilson, Hack

[Freakshow]

Cochrane, Frisch, Hornsby, Sewell and Traynor were elected. They were replaced by newbies Goslin and Roush, and returnees Burns, Rice, and Veach.

Bancroft
GJ Burns
W. Cooper
Goslin
Grimes
Hooper
Maranville
Mays
Rice
Rixey
Roush
Schang
Shocker
Veach
Youngs

[Ace Venom]

We've got a good list of first timers coming up for 1944. Here's what I have so far.

Will be on ballot
Ossie Bluege
Jimmie Dykes
Fred Frankhouse
Lou Gehrig
Tony Lazzeri
Heinie Manush
Carl Reynolds
Earl Whitehill
Pinky Whitney

Will not be on ballot
Moe Berg
Art Jorgens

Gehrig will go in no problem. Manush and Lazzeri should generate some interesting discussion.

[mwiggins]

Rabbit Maranville
Wally Schang
Ross Youngs
Eppa Rixey
Goose Goslin
Edd Roush
Urban Shocker

[Freakshow]

We've got a good list of first timers coming up for 1944. Here's what I have so far.

Will be on ballot
Ossie Bluege
Jimmie Dykes
Fred Frankhouse
Lou Gehrig
Tony Lazzeri
Heinie Manush
Carl Reynolds
Earl Whitehill
Pinky Whitney

Will not be on ballot
Moe Berg
Art Jorgens

Gehrig will go in no problem. Manush and Lazzeri should generate some interesting discussion.For the first time in awhile I did some researching of special eligibility. I discovered that Guy Bush should have been eligible for this election, retiring in 1938; he briefly returned to be pummeled in 4 games for the Reds in 1945.

Here are some other special cases coming up in the near future:

1946
Luke Sewell-C (age 45)
Dizzy Dean (played 1947)
1947
Ted Lyons-P (age 47)
Al Simmons-LF/CF (age 45)
1949
Spud Davis-C (age 45)
1950
Red Ruffing-P (age 45)
Rick Ferrell-C (age 45)

[Ace Venom]

For the first time in awhile I did some researching of special eligibility. I discovered that Guy Bush should have been eligible for this election, retiring in 1938; he briefly returned to be pummeled in 4 games for the Reds in 1945.

Here are some other special cases coming up in the near future:

1946
Luke Sewell-C (age 45)
Dizzy Dean (played 1947)
1947
Ted Lyons-P (age 47)
Al Simmons-LF/CF (age 45)
1949
Spud Davis-C (age 45)
1950
Red Ruffing-P (age 45)
Rick Ferrell-C (age 45)

I noticed Guy Bush when I was looking ahead, so I figure I'll put him on the ballot when he is 45. Babe Herman's time on the ballot is limited because he decided to come back in 1945. The case with Dizzy Dean is interesting because if I put him on the ballot when he became first eligible and he made it in first ballot, I'd have to remove him the following year.

[Freakshow]

I noticed Guy Bush when I was looking ahead, so I figure I'll put him on the ballot when he is 45. Babe Herman's time on the ballot is limited because he decided to come back in 1945. The case with Dizzy Dean is interesting because if I put him on the ballot when he became first eligible and he made it in first ballot, I'd have to remove him the following year.No, that would be kinda ridiculous, so it's not how this project has been dealing with players who make comebacks. The plicy has always been that once you're on the ballot you stay on, even if you come back and play. This is contrary to the nonsensical way the HOF does it, and it's contrary to what you're suggesting.

So Bush should be made eligible immediately; Herman's brief comeback should be ignored, as should Dean's.

[jalbright]

If you're going to make someone eligible, he should be eligible as long as the rules allow. Few if any of those post age 45 comebacks amount to anything that should really make a difference one way or the other in terms of evaluating a player, so why make them ineligible again? If we know they really did have one of those nearly nonexistent post 45 significant seasons, make the guy wait past that significant season.

[Ace Venom]

No, that would be kinda ridiculous, so it's not how this project has been dealing with players who make comebacks. The plicy has always been that once you're on the ballot you stay on, even if you come back and play. This is contrary to the nonsensical way the HOF does it, and it's contrary to what you're suggesting.

So Bush should be made eligible immediately; Herman's brief comeback should be ignored, as should Dean's.

Fair enough.

[jjpm74]

We've got a good list of first timers coming up for 1944. Here's what I have so far.

Will be on ballot
Ossie Bluege
Jimmie Dykes
Fred Frankhouse
Lou Gehrig
Tony Lazzeri
Heinie Manush
Carl Reynolds
Earl Whitehill
Pinky Whitney

Will not be on ballot
Moe Berg
Art Jorgens

Gehrig will go in no problem. Manush and Lazzeri should generate some interesting discussion.

You missed Hank Johnson and Roy Parmelee, though neither one amounted to much.

[Ace Venom]

You missed Hank Johnson and Roy Parmelee, though neither one amounted to much.

Neither of them really met the requirements, but neither did Berg and Jorgens.

[dgarza]

Jim Bottomley
George J Burns
Earle Combs
Kiki Cuyler
Goose Goslin
Burleigh Grimes
Babe Herman
Waite Hoyt
Firpo Marberry
Carl Mays
Sam Rice
Edd Roush
Bobby Veach
Hack Wilson
Ross Youngs


1. Goose Goslin
2. Hack Wilson
3. Kiki Cuyler
4. Bobby Veach
5. Sam Rice
6. Jim Bottomley
7. Firpo Marberry
8. Burleigh Grimes
9. Carl Mays
10. Babe Herman
11. Edd Roush
12. George J Burns
13. Earle Combs
14. Waite Hoyt
15. Ross Youngs

[KCGHOST]

I am just amazed that once our traditional last minute "No" voters place their ballots we are going to elect only guy in this election.

[Ace Venom]

You never know. They might vote for Roush. We've only had 28 ballots cast to this point.

[jjpm74]

I am just amazed that once our traditional last minute "No" voters place their ballots we are going to elect only guy in this election.

I'm hoping that trend ends soon. Up to this point, the VC hasn't had much correcting to do. That will change if the likes of Rabbit Maranville, et. al. don't get in via the standard election.

[jalbright]

I am just amazed that once our traditional last minute "No" voters place their ballots we are going to elect only guy in this election.

Well, only two are at or over 75% a few hours after the quoted post, and the next closest is at 19 out of 28, which means he'd need eight in a row to get up to 75%. Guys who are at 19 out of 28 may look close, but when they fall two votes behind the pace with that many votes in, they're almost always finished--it just isn't official yet. Guys who are at 21 out of 28 are right on the edge and wouldn't be if seven voters hadn't already left them off their ballots. It's just that those last few votes make the results final one way or another.

[SavoyBG]

Glad I checked in. Almost missed this vote.

Goslin
Maranville
Mays
Roush

Thought about Cuyler, but I think he's a bit short.

[Ace Venom]

We've elected Goose Goslin and Edd Roush. The 1944 ballot won't debut until Monday because I'm visiting family this weekend.