1944 Best of Baseball Election

[jalbright]

This is our ninth election in this project. The entire rules follow.

This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EST April 10, 2009.

The prior election, and the ballots of the 1943 voters, are in this thread (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=88405)

[jalbright]

Rules

1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance, or only the first vote will be counted. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, I request that you PM me (jalbright) to ensure that I am aware of the change(s) or make a separate posting in the voting thread. You must let me know the players involved in the changes at a minimum, but it would also help if you added their rankings (before and after). I cannot agree to be responsible for monitoring the thread for any changes voters might make. If I catch them, fine, but if I don't and am not notified, the official count will be what I have been notified of, not what is on the thread.

7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

9) Each election will run for two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

10) No one is ineligible, nor are players from any league ineligible. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project. Candidates will not lose eligiblity after becoming eligible except by being elected as either a contributor or player.

11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration.

14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, take those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

20) I reserve the right to hold both 19th century and Negro League special elections in 2000 if we don't have a sufficient number in those categories by then. These elections probably will be limited to voters I feel are appropriately versed on the group of players to be considered. I do wish to only use this as a last resort, however, and only to ensure that those groups received what I regard as at least adequate bare minimum representation. I do not plan on sharing with you what I consider to meet those bare minimum standards, but I think that the numbers I am thinking of are well below the number of candidates that well informed observers believe are well qualified candidates from each group.

21) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

22) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread

[jalbright]

The players who become eligible in 1944 are:


Arlett , Buzz
Bishop , Max
Combs , Earle
Crowder , Al
Fonseca , Lew
Hoyt , Waite
Root , Charlie
Whitehill , Earl


There is only one contributor candidate becoming eligible in 1944, Jack Norworth.

[jalbright]

The 1943 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the 1943 election:


player……………… votes points
Wright , George 15 101
Santop , Louis 14 98
Ward , John M. 10 75
Rusie , Amos 13 73
Hines , Paul 12 71
Barnes , Ross 10 70
Clarke , Fred 12 64
Sisler , George 11 63
Jackson , Joe 6 53
Collins , Jimmy 10 49
Magee , Sherry 9 47
Wheat , Zack 6 38
Radbourn , C 7 29
Thompson , S 4 25
Bennett , C 4 23
Keeler , Willie 5 23
Vance , Dazzy 5 23
Stovey , Harry 5 22
Start , Joe 3 21
Sutton , Ezra 3 21
Johnson , HR 3 18
Terry , Bill 3 17
Traynor , Pie 2 16
Carey , Max 2 15
Caruthers , B 3 15
Waddell , Rube 3 12
Grant , Frank 1 10
Flick , Elmer 2 9
Galvin , Pud 2 9
Gore , George 2 8
Groh , Heinie 1 8
Spalding , Al 2 7
Chance , Frank 1 6
Coveleski , S 2 6
Maranville , R 2 6
Browning , Pete 2 4
Duffy , Hugh 1 4
Hill , Pete 1 4
McPhee , Bid 1 4
Roush , Edd 1 4
Pennock, Herb 1 3
Tinker, Joe 1 3
Evers , Johnny 1 2
Jennings , H 1 2
Bresnahan , R 1 1
Kling, Johnny 1 1
Pearce , Dickey 1 1


The 1942 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the 1942 election:


contributor……. votes points
Hulbert , W 17 60
Creighton , J 13 40
Cartwright , A 11 39
Richter , F 7 18
Klem, Bill….. 8 14
Landis , K 4 12
Barrow , Ed 4 8
Pearce, Dickey 2 5
Taylor , C. I. 2 5
Commiskey , C 1 4
Reach , A. J. 2 4
Clarke , Fred 1 3
Ward , John M. 2 3
Doubleday , A 1 2
Dunn , Jack 1 2
Hanlon , Ned 1 2
Spink, Albert 1 2
Caylor , O. P. 1 1
Conlan , C 1 1
Wilkinson, JL 1 1


I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.

[jalbright]

Members of the Best of Baseball Hall

Players


Pete Alexander
Cap Anson
Frank Baker
Dan Brouthers
Mordecai Brown
Jesse Burkett
Oscar Charleston
John Clarkson
Ty Cobb
Eddie Collins
Roger Connor
Sam Crawford
Bill Dahlen
George Davis
Ed Delahanty
Buck Ewing
Frankie Frisch
Lou Gehrig
Billy Hamilton
Harry Heilmann
Rogers Hornsby
Walter Johnson
Tim Keefe
King Kelly
Nap LaJoie
Pop Lloyd
Christy Mathewson
Kid Nichols
Jim O'Rourke
Eddie Plank
Bullet Joe Rogan
Babe Ruth
Tris Speaker
Cristobal Torriente
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh
Deacon White
Smoky Joe Williams
Cy Young


Contributors


Doc Adams
Henry Chadwick
Rube Foster
Ban Johnson
Connie Mack
John McGraw
Al Spalding
Harry Wright

[jalbright]

The complete list of eligible players:


Adams , Babe
Adams , Sparky
Altrock , Nick
Archer , Jimmy
Arlett , Buzz
Austin , Jimmy
Bancroft , Dave
Barnes , Ross
Barry , Jack
Battin , Joe
Beaumont , Ginger
Beckley , Jake
Bender , Chief
Bennett , Charlie
Benton , Larry
Bergen , Marty
Bigbee , Carson
Bishop , Max
Blades , Ray
Blue , Lu
Bodie , Ping
Boley , Joe
Bond , Tommy
Bradley , Bill
Breitenstein , Ted
Bresnahan , Roger
Browning , Pete
Burns , George J.
Bush , Joe
Bush , Donie
Cadore , Leon
Camnitz , Howie
Carey , Max
Carrigan , Bill
Caruthers , Bob
Chance , Frank
Chapman , Ray
Chase , Hal
Chesbro , Jack
Childs , Cupid
Cicotte , Eddie
Clarke , Fred
Coakley , Andy
Collins , Jimmy
Collins , Shano
Combs , Earle
Conroy , Wid
Coombs , Jack
Cooper , Andy
Cooper , Wilbur
Coveleski , Stan
Crandall , Doc
Cravath , Gavvy
Creighton , Jim
Criger , Lou
Cross , Lave
Crowder , Al
Cruise , Walt
Cummings , Candy
Cuyler , Kiki
Daubert , Jake
Davis , Harry
Dinneen , Bill
Doak , Bill
Donlin , Mike
Donovan , Bill
Dooin , Red
Doyle , Jack
Doyle , Larry
Duffy , Hugh
Dugan , Joe
Dunlap , Fred
Dykes , Jimmy
Ehmke , Howard
Elberfeld , Kid
Ens , Jewel
Evers , Johnny
Faber , Red
Falkenberg , Cy
Fletcher , Art
Flick , Elmer
Fonseca , Lew
Foster , Eddie
Fraser , Chick
Galvin , Pud
Glasscock , Jack
Gleason , Kid
Gonzalez , Mike
Gore , George
Gowdy , Hank
Grant , Eddie
Grant , Frank
Griffith , Clark
Grimes , Burleigh
Grimm , Charlie
Groh , Heinie
Hahn , Noodles
Haines , Jesse
Hargrave , Bubbles
Harris , Bucky
Herzog , Buck
Hill , Pete
Hinchman , Bill
Hines , Paul
Hooper , Harry
Hoyt , Waite
Huggins , Miller
Irwin , Charlie
Jackman , Will
Jackson , Joe
Jennings , Hughie
Johnson , Home Run
Jones , Charley
Jones , Fielder
Jones , Sam P.
Jordan , Tim
Joss , Addie
Judge , Joe
Keeler , Willie
Kelley , Joe
Kerr , Dickie
Killefer , Bill
Kilroy , Matt
Kling , Johnny
Knabe , Otto
Kremer , Ray
Lange , Bill
Larkin , Henry
Latham , Arlie
Leach , Freddy
Leach , Tommy
Leever , Sam
Lewis , Duffy
Lobert , Hans
Long , Herman
Lowe , Bobby
Lundy , Dick
Luque , Dolf
Lyons , Denny
Magee , Sherry
Maranville , Rabbit
Marberry , Firpo
Marquard , Rube
Mathews , Bobby
Mays , Carl
McAleer , Jimmy
McCarthy , Tommy
McCormick , Jim
McGinnity , Joe
McGowan , Bill
McInnis , Stuffy
McLean , Larry
McPhee , Bid
McVey , Cal
Meadows , Lee
Mendez , Jose
Meusel , Bob
Milan , Clyde
Miller , Bing
Miller , Dots
Miller , Hack
Moore , Dobie
Moran , Pat
Mostil , Johnny
Mullane , Tony
Murphy , Danny
Murray , Red
Nehf , Art
O'Doul , Lefty
Oeschger , Joe
O'Farrell , Bob
O'Leary , Charlie
Oms , Alejandro
O'Neill , Steve
O'Neill , Tip
Orr , Dave
Pabor , Charlie
Paskert , Dode
Pearce , Dickey
Peckinpaugh , Roger
Peitz , Heinie
Pennock , Herb
Perdue , Hub
Perkins , Cy
Phillippe , Deacon
Pike , Lip
Pipp , Wally
Poles , Spotswood
Quinn , Jack
Radbourn , Charlie
Raymond , Bugs
Redding , Dick
Remsen , Jack
Rice , Sam
Richardson , Hardy
Ring , Jimmy
Ritchey , Claude
Rixey , Eppa
Robertson , Dave
Rommel , Eddie
Root , Charlie
Roush , Edd
Rucker , Nap
Rudolph , Dick
Ruel , Muddy
Rusie , Amos
Ryan , Jimmy
Santop , Louis
Schacht , Al
Schaefer , Germany
Schalk , Ray
Schang , Wally
Schreckengost , Ossie
Schulte , Frank
Scott , Everett
Scott , Jack
Severeid , Hank
Sewell , Joe
Seymour , Cy
Sheckard , Jimmy
Sherdel , Bill
Shocker , Urban
Sisler , George
Smith , Earl
Smith , Sherry
Sparks , Tully
Stahl , Jake
Start , Joe
Steinfeldt , Harry
Stephenson , Riggs
Stovey , Harry
Street , Gabby
Sutton , Ezra
Sweeney , Bill
Tannehill , Jesse
Taylor , Ben
Tenney , Fred
Terry , Bill
Thomas , Ira
Thompson , Sam
Tiernan , Mike
Tinker , Joe
Toney , Fred
Traynor , Pie
Turner , Terry
Uhle , George
Van Haltren , George
Vance , Dazzy
Veach , Bobby
Waddell , Rube
Walberg , Rube
Wallace , Bobby
Wambsganss , Bill
Ward , John M.
Warfield , Frank
Welch , Mickey
Wheat , Zack
White , Sol
White , Will
Whitehill , Earl
Williams , Cy
Williams , Ken
Williamson , Ned
Willis , Vic
Witt , Whitey
Wood , Joe
Wright , George
Yerkes , Steve
Youngs , Ross
Zachary , Tom
Zimmer , Chief


The complete list of eligible contributors:


Abe , Iso
Adams , Doc
Bancroft , Frank
Barrow , Ed
Bulkely , Morgan
Cartwright , Alexander
Caylor , O. P.
Chance , Frank
Clarke , Fred
Commiskey , Charlie
Conlan , Charles
Connolly , Tom
Cooper , Andy
Creighton , Jim
Cummings , Candy
Dinneen , Bill
Doubleday , Abner
Dreyfuss , Barney
Dunn , Jack
Elias , Al Munro
Foster , John B.
Fullerton , Hugh
Gleason , Kid
Griffith , Clark
Hanlon , Ned
Hillerich , John
Huggins , Miller
Hulbert , William
Jennings , Hughie
Klem , Bill
Landis , Kenesaw
Lardner , Ring
Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
McCarthy , Tommy
Mendez , Jose
Mills , A. G.
Moran , Pat
Mutrie , Jim
Navin , Frank
Norworth, Jack
Osborn , Frank
Reach , A. J.
Richter , Francis
Robinson , Wilbert
Ruppert , Jacob
Selee , Frank
Shibe , Ben
Spink, Albert
Stallings , George
Taylor , C. I.
Thayer , Ernest
Ward , John M.
Warfield , Frank
White , Sol
Wilkinson , J. L.
Wilson , Horace
Wright , George

[jalbright]

My ballot:

Players
1. John M. Ward
2. Amos Rusie
3. Louis Santop
4. Sherry Magee
5. Zack Wheat
6. Paul Hines
7. Fred Clarke
8. George Wright
9. Dazzy Vance
10. Harry Stovey
11. Burleigh Grimes
12. Pud Galvin

Contributors
1. William Hulbert
2. Jim Creighton
3. Kennesaw Landis
4. Francis Richter
5. Bill Klem

[jalbright]

I'm removing J. L. Wilkinson from my ballot for the time being, though he certainly will reappear. I've added Richter and Klem to my contributor ballot. My three new players (Stovey, Grimes and Galvin) may disappear in 1945 with the deep class that comes on that year. Those that disappear will return, though.

[jalbright]

John Montgomery Ward is climbing among the players, which I'm glad to see. Even so, I think he's underappreciated at this point. Let me repeat myself on his case:

His playing career divides into two parts, which makes it hard to get a handle on him. First he was a pitcher, and, according to baseball-reference.com, the most similar guy to him in that capacity is HOFer Addie Joss. He hurt his arm, so he moved to shortstop, and the most similar player to him there is a darned good, though not great, player in Bobby Lowe. Put the value of Bobby Lowe on top of Addie Joss, though, and that is definitely a HOF quality player.

He has 409 win shares, good for 41st overall, ahead of the already elected Cap Anson, Frank Baker, Mordecai Brown, Jesse Burkett, John Clarkson, Roger Connor, Bill Dahlen, Buck Ewing, Jim O'Rourke, Eddie Plank, Ed Walsh, George Davis, Ed Delahanty, Harry Heilmann, King Kelly and Billy Hamilton and guys with post 1875 careers neck and neck him in the voting like Paul Hines and Amos Rusie. He also had a far longer career than Ross Barnes, who also is neck and neck with him in the voting. I preferred some of these guys to Ward, I admit, but by no means all of them.

[leecemark]

1) George Wright
2) Ross Barnes
3) Luis Santop
4) John Ward
5) Paul Hines
6) Fred Clarke
7) Amos Rusie
8) Jimmy Collins
9) Charlie Bennett
10) Dazzy Vance
11) Charlie Radbourne
12) Rube Waddell


1) William Hulbert
2) Alexander Cartwright
3) Francis Richter
4) Dickey Pearce
5) Commissioner Landis

--Nobody in the newly eligible pool is close to my ballot. I'm am going to wait on filling the last 3 spots on my players ballot and last spot on my contributors ballot until after soem discussion. With only one pitcher on my ballot I think at least one of those is certain to be added - although my ballot last year was submitted with only the same one (Rusie).

[Ubiquitous]

1. Sherry Magee
2. Pie Traynor
3. Heinie Groh
4. Max Carey
5. Frank Chance
6. Rabbit Marranville
7. Bid McPhee
8. Joe Tinker
9. Johnny Evers
10. Roger Bresnahan
11. Johnny Kling
12. George Sisler

The 12 spot was tough, I probably would have put Buzz there but I am sure I never would have heard the end of it.


1. Charles Comiskey
2. Ed Barrow
3. Jack Dunn
4. A.J. Reach
5. Bill Klem

I would probably have voted for J.G. Taylor Spink but he is not on the list.
I think by the mid 40's it is pretty clear he is having an impact on the game.

[jalbright]

--Nobody in the newly eligible pool is close to my ballot. I'm am going to wait on filling the last 3 spots on my players ballot and last spot on my contributors ballot until after soem discussion. With only one pitcher on my ballot I think at least one of those is certain to be added - although my ballot last year was submitted with only the same one (Rusie).

We've discussed Jim Creighton as a contributor, the man who caused the monumental change of making pitching far more important than in slow pitch softball. I'd recommend him for your contributor spot.

Two guys who are doing reasonably well in the voting who aren't on your ballot are Zack Wheat and Sherry Magee. I'd recommend those two, for the reasons stated here for Wheat (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=361689&postcount=110) and here for Magee (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=370609&postcount=142).

[jalbright]

I would probably have voted for J.G. Taylor Spink but he is not on the list.
I think by the mid 40's it is pretty clear he is having an impact on the game.

He's not eligible until the earlier of the year he turns 65 or his year of death plus two. By my calculations, he becomes eligible in 1953 under these rules.

[jalbright]

Please note that Al Spalding is no longer eligible as a player candidate, as he's been elected as a contributor.

[jalbright]

I'd say Wright and Santop are clear favorites to make it this year, with the third spot going to one of Ward, Rusie, Hines and Barnes, who are closely bunched together in the 1943 voting.

[Ubiquitous]

I have a hard time naming players as contributors based on what they did on the field of play. In terms of claim to fame for the contributor section is his snapping of the wrist to illegally throw fast pitches. I just don't see him being anything more than part of the evolutionary process of the game. What he did wasn't really unique and I am betting he wasn't really the first person to do it. Sure, he did it but what he did wasn't exactly like creating the microprocessor or figure out pasteurization was a good thing or organize an entire league.

What he did was going to happen sooner or later. What he did may very well have changed the game but if he had taken a wrong turn to the game that day then we would probably be hyping John Shoehorn of 1860 instead for this contribution spot or Joe Greenfeld or Gary Bustleton or somebody. The point being name isn't really important for this evolutionary step.

[jjpm74]

Players:

1. Ross Barnes
2. George Wright
3. Ezra Sutton
4. Joe Start
5. Jimmy Collins
6. Paul Hines
7. Edd Roush
8. Charlie Bennett
9. Rabbit Maranville
10. George Sisler
11. Louis Santop
12. Fred Clarke

Contributors:

1. Jim Creighton
2. C. I. Taylor
3. William Hulbert
4. Bill Klem
5. Francis Richter

Not yet on my ballot, but high in my consideration set:

Buzz Arlett
Roger Bresnahan
Pud Galvin
George Gore
Heinie Groh
Bill Jackman
Sherry Magee
Bid McPhee
Amos Rusie
Dazzy Vance
Zach Wheat

[jalbright]

I have a hard time naming players as contributors based on what they did on the field of play. In terms of claim to fame for the contributor section is his snapping of the wrist to illegally throw fast pitches. I just don't see him being anything more than part of the evolutionary process of the game. What he did wasn't really unique and I am betting he wasn't really the first person to do it. Sure, he did it but what he did wasn't exactly like creating the microprocessor or figure out pasteurization was a good thing or organize an entire league.

What he did was going to happen sooner or later. What he did may very well have changed the game but if he had taken a wrong turn to the game that day then we would probably be hyping John Shoehorn of 1860 instead for this contribution spot or Joe Greenfeld or Gary Bustleton or somebody. The point being name isn't really important for this evolutionary step.

Are you sure it was going to happen otherwise? It hadn't become popular before him, that's for sure. Moreover, would the impact have been the same if the game had waited 10 or 20 years for someone else to popularize it? I agree that discoveries are sometimes serendipitous (see penicillin, for example), but history remembers those discoverers who ran with what they found. I see no reason for baseball to do differently.

[Ubiquitous]

Are you sure it was going to happen otherwise? It hadn't become popular before him, that's for sure. Moreover, would the impact have been the same if the game had waited 10 or 20 years for someone else to popularize it? I agree that discoveries are sometimes serendipitous (see penicillin, for example), but history remembers those discoverers who ran with what they found. I see no reason for baseball to do differently.

As the game of baseball becomes more competitive then the need to win becomes greater which means the seeking out of every advantage possible becomes greater. I'm not saying we should ignore Jim and his achievements, I just don't see any particular need to hoist him up to the top of my list.

I don't know it as fact but I'm willing to bet that other people threw the ball illegally before Jim. It just so happens that Jim was at the right place at the right time for his actions to be widely disseminated throughout the baseball playing domain.

To me crediting Jim is like crediting Roger Bannister with runner's ability to run faster than 4 minutes per mile. Sure he was the first but that doesn't but others quickly broke the 4 minute barrier as well.

[jjpm74]

I am betting he wasn't really the first person to do it.

I'm betting you'd be wrong.

[Ubiquitous]

Considering how closely intertwined cricket and baseball were and how cricket made its own change from underhand to side arm to eventually over hand and along the way break the wrist I think it is entirely possible that people were doing what Jim did before Jim.

For instance Tom Walker in the late 1700's is widely believed to be the first bowler to change from the underhand throwing style of cricket to the roundarm style. It would eventually become a mainstay of cricket until about 1864 when the overhand style became the popular choice.

[bambambaseball]

Players:

1. Ross Barnes
2. Charlie Bennett
3. Jimmy Collins
4. Ezra Sutton
5. George Sisler
6. Bob Caruthers
7. George Wright
8. Louis Santop
9. Roger Bresnahan
10. John Ward
11. Dickey Pearce
12. Charlie Radbourne
Contributers:

1. Jim Creighton
2. Bill Klem
3. Francis Richter
4. O.P. Caylor
5. Ed Barrow

[Domenic]

Players

01. Sherry Magee
02. Pie Traynor
03. Heinie Groh
04. Zack Wheat
05. George Wright
06. Rabbit Marranville
07. Bid McPhee
08. Dazzy Vance
09. Max Carey
10. Roger Bresnahan
11. Amos Rusie
12. George Sisler

Contributors

01. Charles Comiskey
02. Ed Barrow
03. Jack Dunn
04. Jim Creighton
05. Bill Klem

[Sockeye]

Players

1. Joe Jackson
2. Fred Clarke
3. Zack Wheat
4. Sherry Magee
5. Willie Keeler
6. Sam Thompson
7. Elmer Flick
8. Bill Terry
9. Harry Stovey
10. Pete Browning
11. George Sisler
12. Joe Kelley

Contributors

1. W. Hulbert
2. J. Creighton
3. A. Cartwright
4. K. Landis
5. F. Richter

[jalbright]

As the game of baseball becomes more competitive then the need to win becomes greater which means the seeking out of every advantage possible becomes greater. I'm not saying we should ignore Jim and his achievements, I just don't see any particular need to hoist him up to the top of my list.

I don't know it as fact but I'm willing to bet that other people threw the ball illegally before Jim. It just so happens that Jim was at the right place at the right time for his actions to be widely disseminated throughout the baseball playing domain.

To me crediting Jim is like crediting Roger Bannister with runner's ability to run faster than 4 minutes per mile. Sure he was the first but that doesn't but others quickly broke the 4 minute barrier as well.


The last paragraph, to me at least, is an argument against having a contributor ballot. That's fine, but if we're going to have one (and we will so long as there's sufficient interest and the rules call for one), it's irrelevant. You boosted Al Spalding for his sporting goods business, promotions, and so forth. Somebody was going to realize they could make money selling such items, and it only stands to reason they'd want to promote the game to help themselves. Some GM was going to have a player who would openly cross the color line. Eventually, one of them would have had success. These guys actually did these things, and popularized them and/or made them succeed. That's why we are supporting them as contributors.

The fact that Creighton is the guy who at the very least popularized pitching the new way renders the whole issue of whether or not he was actually the first to do so an interesting side question, but not one which should be determinative of him as a contributor. Certainly, Branch Rickey wasn't the first guy to try and put an African-American in a major league uniform. There's no question John McGraw tried it, but as a subterfuge, rather than as an open choice. Some may well have knowingly succeeded McGraw's way. Rickey, though, chose wisely as to who would be the first to make that open break with tradition, and gave Jackie ample support in the effort.

[jaxxr]

Players
1 Joe Jackson
2 Addie Joss
3 George Sisler
4 Ross Barnes
5 Dazzy Vance
6 Bid McPhee
7 Wille Keeler
8 John Ward
9 Elmer Flick
10 Rube Waddell
11 Bill Terry
12 Pie Traynor

Contributors
1 Bill Klem
2 Charles Comiskey
3 Abner Doubleday
4 A Cartwright
5 W Hulbert

[Dogdaze]

1. Louis Santop
2. George Wright
3. John M. Ward
4. Jimmy Collins
5. Ross Barnes
6. Amos Rusie
7. George Sisler
8. Sam Thompson
9. Old Hoss Radbourn
10. Paul Hines
11. Zack Wheat
12. Frank Grant

Contributors:

1. William Hulbert
2. Francis Richter
3. Jim Creighton
4. C. I. Taylor
5. Bill Klem

[Paul Wendt]

bambam,
We elected Frisch.

--
Regarding Creighton and Pasteur:

I consider it likely that fast pitching would have arrived in the New York game a few seasons after Creighton introduced it, probably before the war, although that might have delayed it until several years later. Creighton was a leading young cricketer himself, but I don't know that that connection or the health of the other game helps predict how quickly someone else would have snapped the wrist. If round-arm bowling ruled in America, which doesn't follow from its popularity in first class cricket, that may have delayed rather than hastened transfer to the New York game.

At the same time I consider it likely that pasteurization and other health practices based on the germ theory of disease would have arrived in the rich countries a few years later without Pasteur. Others were engaged in the historical processes of developing microscopes and discovering germs. Maybe Pasteur and his movement even caused others to retrench and they might have taken the same path themselves if wandering on their own.

[AstrosFan]

1. Jimmy Collins
2. John M. Ward
3. Max Carey
4. Louis Santop
5. Dazzy Vance
6. Fred Clarke
7. Paul Hines
8. Sherry Magee
9. Amos Rusie
10. George Sisler
11. Zack Wheat
12. Ezra Sutton

Contributors:

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. William Hulbert
3. Francis Richter
4. Jim Creighton
5. Bill Klem

[jalbright]

Under the rules, we already have a quorum for the contributor ballot, and when leecemark provides at least two more names (or somebody else casts a valid ballot), we'll have a quorum for the player ballot as well.

[Paul Wendt]

I'm removing J. L. Wilkinson from my ballot for the time being, though he certainly will reappear. I've added Richter and Klem to my contributor ballot.
I considered Wilkinson vs. Ward late last year and my reasoning for Ward may be quixotic (unreasonable).

C.I. Taylor voters,
Why do you support Taylor ahead of Wilkinson? When I have asked about Taylor in the past, the replies have favored Wilkinson, Posey, or both.

All,
Is age a criterion for you here, after it plays its role in determining eligibility? This is much too late for C.I. Taylor to enjoy his election but in the 1940s it may be an argument for Barrow or Landis.

[leecemark]

--My ballot has been completed.

[Ubiquitous]

The last paragraph, to me at least, is an argument against having a contributor ballot. That's fine, but if we're going to have one (and we will so long as there's sufficient interest and the rules call for one), it's irrelevant. You boosted Al Spalding for his sporting goods business, promotions, and so forth. Somebody was going to realize they could make money selling such items, and it only stands to reason they'd want to promote the game to help themselves. Some GM was going to have a player who would openly cross the color line. Eventually, one of them would have had success. These guys actually did these things, and popularized them and/or made them succeed. That's why we are supporting them as contributors.

The fact that Creighton is the guy who at the very least popularized pitching the new way renders the whole issue of whether or not he was actually the first to do so an interesting side question, but not one which should be determinative of him as a contributor. Certainly, Branch Rickey wasn't the first guy to try and put an African-American in a major league uniform. There's no question John McGraw tried it, but as a subterfuge, rather than as an open choice. Some may well have knowingly succeeded McGraw's way. Rickey, though, chose wisely as to who would be the first to make that open break with tradition, and gave Jackie ample support in the effort.

Like I said earlier, I have a hard time voting for players as contributors. That is because I feel most of the contributing players are simply evolutionary steps in baseball. Whereas the people running and organizing baseball are to me the ones that make or break the game at this stage of the game. As long as these pioneers are out there then there will be a game and there will be players who tinker within that game. If there is a Spalding or Cartwright then eventually there will be a Creighton. But if there is no Spalding or Cartwright then even if there is a Creighton it doesn't really matter because nobody is going to be around to care.

[jalbright]

--My ballot has been completed.

Thanks for the heads-up. Duly noted and recorded. We now have a quorum on both sides.

[Paul Wendt]

if there is no Spalding or Cartwright then even if there is a Creighton it doesn't really matter because nobody is going to be around to care.
This is awfully wrong about the Spaldings and probably about the Cartwrights, meaning the original Knickerbockers. Their steps, too, were evolutionary steps.

Most-successful businessmen rarely do anything but most-successfully marry their interests to what people are doing en masse. In Spalding's case there were many other sporting goods businessmen. He was more successful and ultimately he managed to buy the Reach and Wright businesses, rather than vice versa, but the difference is incremental --incremental whether the alternative is Reach purchase of Spalding or all continuing independently. At the same time, the annual baseball guide was 17 years old when he put together his first one and it was essentially mature. That is, Spalding mainly copied the form, and a few years later he hired Beadle's longtime editor Henry Chadwick to take over his own.

Without Spalding's aid, Hulbert's effort to organize a more centralized league of clubs might have failed, or lasted only a few seasons. Either way, who can doubt that commercial baseball as mass entertainment --the national spectator pastime-- was here to stay? Spalding gained from the League (by exclusive contracts to produce official baseballs and publish the official book) and the League gained from Spalding. But the League is only some institutional details. Without Hulbert's National League, or following its failure, there might have been another. Or commercial baseball might have developed more like English football. What then? Perhaps two distinct businesses would have become its most successful producer-distributor of goods and its most-successful publisher. Perhaps two distinct publishers would have retained the leading editorial authority (Chadwick) and secured an official contract.

How would such differences be "revolutionary"? Why, that is, should we consider the steps down two different historical paths revolutionary rather than evolutionary steps?

[jalbright]

All,
Is age a criterion for you here, after it plays its role in determining eligibility? This is much too late for C.I. Taylor to enjoy his election but in the 1940s it may be an argument for Barrow or Landis.

Truthfully, as I'm basically looking at this from a 2008 perspective, the age issue is at best a very minor one for me. It would have been much more important in its own time. So long as I can find contributor candidates I can accept who are doing well with our voters, I'll choose from that group. This approach is calculated to help move things along, and, given that we have to choose between this apple and this orange and this mango and this watermelon, it makes life a little easier.

[Brad Harris]

Players
1. Louis Santop
2. Paul Hines
3. George Wright
4. Sherry Magee
5. Fred Clarke
6. John Montgomery Ward
7. George Sisler
8. Amos Rusie
9. Edd Roush
10. Zack Wheat
11. Dazzy Vance
12. Jimmy Collins

Contributors
1. William Hulbert
2. Francis Richter
3. Ed Barrow
4. Alfred H. Spink
5. Bill Klem

[Paul Wendt]

"Louis Pasteur" at wikipedia shows multiple people working on Pasteur's themes at several points. Germ theory and experiment may be a better historical example, rather than its application to vaccination. But these examples from vaccination are clear (probably because their concrete nature fits the wikipedia project well).

Others developed vaccination for smallpox, Pasteur for chicken cholera. Then anthrax:
>>
In the 1870s, he applied this immunisation method to anthrax, which affected cattle, and aroused interest in combating other diseases. Pasteur publicly claimed he had made the anthrax vaccine by exposing the bacillus to oxygen. His laboratory notebooks, now in the Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris, in fact show Pasteur used the method of rival Jean-Joseph-Henri Toussaint, a Toulouse veterinary surgeon, to create the anthrax vaccine.[17][7] This method used the oxidizing agent potassium dichromate. Pasteur's oxygen method did eventually produce a vaccine but only after he had been awarded a patent on the production of an anthrax vaccine.
<<

Later with rabies he took one giant step for a man but it seems to be one small step for mankind, one a small step because merely a shortcut (which is very common, I believe).
>>
The rabies vaccine was initially created by Emile Roux, a French doctor and a colleague of Pasteur who had been working with a killed vaccine produced by desiccating the spinal cords of infected rabbits. The vaccine had only been tested on eleven dogs before its first human trial.[7][18]

This vaccine was first used on 9-year old Joseph Meister, on July 6, 1885, after the boy was badly mauled by a rabid dog.[7] This was done at some personal risk for Pasteur, since he was not a licensed physician and could have faced prosecution for treating the boy. However, left without treatment, the boy faced almost certain death from rabies. After consulting with colleagues, Pasteur decided to go ahead with the treatment. The treatment proved to be a spectacular success, with Meister avoiding the disease; thus, Pasteur was hailed as a hero and the legal matter was not pursued.
<<

Back to baseball, the point is to support analogies such as Spalding to Pasteur to reject the revolutionary interpretation. What wouldn't have happened except for the successful Captain of Industry is institutional detail, such as location of one center or another in Chicago rather than Philadelphia, and it is shortcuts, hastening this by several years and delaying that by a few.

--
This interpretation may support honoring people for long and meritorious service, such as NA and NL secretary-treasurer Nick Young, umpires Connolly and Klem, and some field managers or club executives.

[henrich]

01 hoyt
02 barnes
03 magee
04 wheat
05 stovey
06 terry
07 galvin
08 pennock
09 santop
10 wright g
11 clarke f
12 thompson s

contributors
01 landis
02 cartwright
03 creighton
04 hulbert
05 klem

[PVNICK]

1. George Sisler
2. Monte Ward
3. Amos Rusie
4. Pie Traynor
5. Hoss Radbourne
6. Bob Caruthers
7. George Wright
8. Jimmy Collins
9. Louis Santop
10. Joe Jackson
11. Bill Terry
12. Dazzy Vance

1. Jim Creighton
2. AJ Reach
3. Albert Spink
4. William Hulbert
5. Landis

[Captain Cold Nose]

1. George Wright
2. John Montgomery Ward
3. Louis Santop
4. George Sisler
5. Amos Rusie
6. Willie Keeler
7. Charles Radbourne
8. Jimmy Collins
9. Paul Hines
10. Harry Stovey
11. Frank Grant
12. Pete Hill

Contributors

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. William Hulbert
3. Ned Hanlon
4. Bill Klem
5. Ed Barrow

[jalbright]

If you've got plans for next week (Spring break for many schools), you may want to get your vote in before you go away. Just a reminder from your friendly project manager. ;)

[J W]

Players

1. Joe Jackson
2. Frank Grant
3. Louis Santop
4. George Sisler
5. Rube Waddell
6. Amos Rusie
7. Sherry Magee
8. Stan Coveleski
9. Charlie Radbourn
10. Fred Clarke
11. Pie Traynor
12. Dazzy Vance

Contributors

1. William Hulbert
2. Alexander Cartwright
3. Fred Clarke
4. Bill Klem
5. Francis Richter

[Freakshow]

1 George Wright
2 Louis Santop
3 Paul Hines
4 Amos Rusie
5 Ross Barnes
6 Fred Clarke
7 Joe Start
8 John M. Ward
9 Jimmy Collins
10 Dazzy Vance
11 Zack Wheat
12 George Sisler

[Freakshow]

Candidates with highest OPS+, minimum 7200 PA, including next year's newbies.
Player OPS+ BrYr PA From To
Sherry Magee 136 1884 8546 1904 1919
Joe Kelley 133 1871 8120 1891 1908
Fred Clarke 132 1872 9819 1894 1915
Paul Hines 131 1855 7470 1872 1891
Zack Wheat 129 1888 9996 1909 1927
Goose Goslin 128 1900 9822 1921 1938
Bobby Veach 127 1888 7557 1912 1925
Gabby Hartnett 126 1900 7297 1922 1941
Edd Roush 126 1893 8156 1913 1931
Larry Doyle 126 1886 7382 1907 1920
Willie Keeler 126 1872 9594 1892 1910
Kiki Cuyler 125 1898 8098 1921 1938
Jim Bottomley 125 1900 8355 1922 1937
Cy Williams 125 1887 7720 1912 1930
Jake Beckley 125 1867 10470 1888 1907
George Sisler 124 1893 9013 1915 1930
Jimmy Ryan 123 1863 9106 1885 1903

[Paul Wendt]

If John Ward wins the odd slot this year, giving us a catcher and 1-1/2 shortstops, then there will be a big pack of outfielders and firstbasemen near election, probably led by Sherry Magee.

I am a "strong" supporter of Sherry Magee for the Hall of Fame. His case is a clear one; he would be a solid hall of famer. Yet I put "strong" in quotation marks because there are about ten players from the first forty years and about ten from the last forty whom I rank ahead of him. From the 154-game era I would add Heinie Groh and maybe a few others.

Groh and everyone from the first forty years are eligilbe here, except the two we have elected, Dahlen and White. (About ten + 1 - 2 gives me about ten.) We also have plenty of hall of famers on the board. Except for those I consider Cooperstown's mistakes, I do not rank Sherry Magee above very many of them. Fred Clarke is not a close call for me. Neither are the three we will probably elect this year, Santop and Wright and Ward, so Magee will not be on my ballot. But I am looking ahead to next year ...

11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale).
For me Sherry Magee will be clearly among the top 25 but not clearly among the top 15 even next year. So it's possible that I won't vote for him before we elect him; also possible I will give him a 12th place vote as a compromise, registering my general approval, as I did for Harry Heilmann.

Limiting myself to hall of fame outfielders now, Fred Clarke is an easy call over Magee. I suppose Magee is an easy call over Sam Thompson and Hugh Duffy. What about Joe Kelley, Willie Keeler, Elmer Flick, Pete Hill, Zack Wheat, and Max Carey? For me those are the close calls for Sherry Magee. Several of us rank Magee ahead of them all, maybe enough to elect him in a year or two without benefit of the other half of us making any of those close calls.

This year none of them but Clarke will be on my ballot (plus outfielders Paul Hines and George Gore who are not in Cooperstown). Next year I will need to make some of the close calls in the outfield, regarding Magee and the six and the infamous Joe Jackson. Magee might not make it, but I am a "strong" supporter, really.

Almost all of the regulars have cast their 1944 ballots, so writing this explanation now is like writing it for next year. Thanks for reading.

[Paul Wendt]

This article includes some allusions to the preceding one that tries to locate Sherry Magee before it is too late.

Having voted for Al Spalding and all three of our 1943 winners, I have only eight incumbents. They happen to be firmly in my first eight slots.

1. Wright
2. Clarke
3. Hines
4. Ward
5. Barnes
6. Santop
7. Johnson G
8. Gore
9. Groh
10. Rusie
11. Collins
12. Glasscock

edit: fill slots 9-12

I expect to vote for thirdbasemen Jimmy Collins and Heinie Groh. Tonight Collins would get the nod only because I give some credit for his work as field manager. I may vote for another 3B, Ezra Sutton, or for some of the 1880s infielders Jack Glasscock, Hardy Richardson, and Bid McPhee. Evidently Collins and McPhee are two more of those hall of famers I do not rank below Sherry Magee.

What about the pitchers? Some now deserve consideration, at least the briefly scintillating Charley Radbourn, Bob Caruthers, Amos Rusie, Stan Coveleski, and Dazzy Vance. Caruthers is not in the Hall; I am his "strong" supporter, too. The others are four more in that very big group of Cooperstowners whom I might rank ahead of Sherry Magee!

As I said, tonight I am leaning to the infielders. Maybe I should take a transcendant nickname for it appears that I will be with Ubiquitous again, in this regard, voting for no pitchers. Not just yet.

By the way, Sockeye votes for no infielders, meaning c-3b-ss-2b. What we don't have is anyone who votes for no outfielders. There is never anyone who votes for no outfielders.

[dgarza]

Players

1. Sam Thompson
2. Joe Jackson
3. Ross Barnes
4. George Sisler
5. Amos Rusie
6. Harry Stovey
7. Willie Keeler
8. Bill Terry
9. Charley Radbourn
10. George Wright
11. Pete Browning
12. Hugh Duffy

Contributors

1. Kenesaw Landis
2. Alexander Cartwright
3. Abner Doubleday
4. Charles Conlon
5. William Hulbert

[jalbright]

PM sent that Spalding is no longer eligible. The ballot would count, but with that name deleted.

[jalbright]

We have six folks who voted last time but have yet to vote in this election:

AG2004
Blue Blood
Mr. Red
mwiggins
Paul Wendt
Tiboreau

If they haven't voted by Sunday night or Monday morning, I will send them a PM reminding them the deadline is Friday the 10th.

[jalbright]

Next year, we will add Grantland Rice to our contributor list. Our new class of players is deep and talented:


Bluege , Ossie
Bottomley , Jim
Critz , Hughie
Earnshaw , George
Elliott , Jumbo
Goslin , Goose
Grantham , George
Grove , Lefty
Hartnett , Gabby
Johnson , Judy
Kamm , Willie
Lyons , Ted
McManus , Marty
Pruett , Hub
Suttles , Mule
Wilson , Hack
Wilson , Jimmie


Bluege, Critz, Earnshaw, Elliott, Grantham, Kamm, McManus, Pruett, and J. Wilson will not likely draw much interest. Judy Johnson and Jim Bottomley, as befits most Cooperstown inductees, will have some supporters, but I think enough of our electorate views them as mistakes to keep them from ever being elected. Lefty Grove is clearly the top of the class, and should breeze to election. Hack Wilson is somebody who may eventually get in, but probably not for a good while. That leaves four guys who could do fairly well immediately: Goslin, Hartnett, Lyons and Suttles. I'll be voting for those four plus Grove, and will post a review of Suttles later this week.

[jjpm74]

Suttles will actually be grabbing the #1 slot for me next election with Grove at #2. I tend to rank Suttles up there with the all time greats of the blackball era.

[Paul Wendt]

Al Reach is another complex candidate like John Ward whom I added to my ballot last year. They both have resumes in more than two sections. Charlie Comiskey is another one of those; today he seems to me the strongest of the other candidates so he is one favorite for next year.

Contributors
1. Hulbert
2. Richter
3. Klem
4. Ward
5. Reach

Some other leading candidates are Ned Hanlon, Charles Comiskey, Clark Griffith, CI Taylor, JL Wilkinson, Ed Barrow, Kenesaw Landis. Griffith, Barrow, and Landis are still active in the game with Landis still at work in his primary baseball role.

[Tiboreau]

1. Amos Rusie
2. Paul Hines
3. Dazzy Vance
4. Elmer Flick
5. Ross Barnes
6. Grant "Home Run" Johnson
7. George Wright
8. Stan Coveleski
9. Fred Clarke
10. Hughie Jennings
11. Charley "Old Hoss" Radbourn
12. Pete Hill

[jalbright]

Here's my promised bit on Mule Suttles

This man earned numerous accolades, including:
1) placed 14th in the SABR poll ranking Negro League greats;
2) selected to the Baseball Think Factory "Hall of Merit";
3) selected as the second first baseman in a 1993 poll of members of the Negro League Museum;
4) selected as the 43rd best player of all time by Bill James in his latest Historical Abstract;
5) selected by Bill James in his latest Historical Abstract as the second best ever left fielder among Negro Leaguers (to Turkey Stearnes),
6) named by 70% of Negro League veterans polled by William McNeil for Cool Papas and Double Duties as worthy of Cooperstown; and
7) named by 88% of the Negro League historians polled by McNeil for CPDD as worthy of Cooperstown.
8) inducted to Cooperstown in 2006

The guys over at Baseball Think Factory peg him as a career .300 hitter with 30-35 HR in a typical year, a .360 career OBP and .530 career slugging. They project him to get 2791 hits. The combination of that average, that many career hits and slugging is a sure recipe for Cooperstown. Their research shows him with 56 Black Ink points in the Negro Leagues and 145 Gray Ink points in those leagues. They also project him at 370 career WS, 148 best five consecutive and top three of 36, 35 and 29, while Stargell had career win shares at 352, 126 WS in his best five consecutive years, and a best three of 44, 31 and 28. Really, except for the fact the Mule was a righty and Willie a lefty, they're a heck of a match.

Those numbers are well under the marks he racked up in the 79 at bats he had against major league pitchers. He got 31 hits for a .392 average--and it was a very loud .392, with 11 homers!

I should point out the projection points to a man well worthy of a plaque in Cooperstown. No major leaguer with 2500 career hits and a .500 or better slugging average has failed to be inducted to Cooperstown after getting his chance with the voters. Further, only one man with more than the Mule's projected 2791 career hits has not been enshrined--Harold Baines with 2866. Baines was a fine player, but not in the Mule's class (289/359/465). We could carry it to win shares, where Baines has 307 career, 108 for best five consecutive and a top three of 25, 24 and 22. Again, good, but nearly as good as the Mule.

Furthermore, the latest Bill James Historical Abstract lists him as tied for the greatest player of 1926, and as the greatest player of 1931 and 1941. He might well have won more if Josh Gibson hadn't taken five such titles and Buck Leonard two in that period.

From Cool Papas and Double Duties by William McNeil, pp. 115-117
Suttles . . .[was] 6 ' 4", and packed a solid 230 pounds on his rugged frame. Fortunately for his opponents, he didn't have a mean bone in his body. He was a gentle giant, a good-natured fellow who enjoyed life. . .

Mule Suttles brought excitement to the game of baseball, especially to the home fans, who would chant "kick, Mule, kick" whenever he came to bat in a critical situation. And . . . often. . . Mule would respond by "kicking" one out of the park. He was a good low-ball hitter and a good curve ball hitter, who loved nothing more than to extend his arms and cut loose with an all-or nothing swing. . . .

Suttles went on to play 18 years in the Negro Leagues, finishing with a .341 battiong average, the fifth-highest average in Negro league history for players with more than 2000 at-bats. . . . He also hit 237 home runs [ed. most in Negro League history], an average of 40 homers for every 550 at-bats. And he didn't stop there. He pounded major-leaue pitchers for a .341 average and 10 home runs in 170 plate appearances in exhibition games. . .

Suttles played in the California Winter Leagues [ed the first integrated league in North America in the 20th century--many major leaguers played there, too] several years, where he literally destroyed major league and high minor league pitching. Partial statistics credit him with a .378 bating average and 64 home runs in just 450 at-bats, [which] would equate to 77 home runs for every 550 at-bats

Folks, that is one great player.

[Paul Wendt]

4) selected as the 43rd best player of all time by Bill James in his latest Historical Abstract;
5) selected by Bill James in his latest Historical Abstract as the second best ever left fielder among Negro Leaguers (to Turkey Stearnes),
<<

The Hall of Merit put Suttles at firstbase (and Stearnes at cf) in a series of special projects to rank members at each fielding position.

Bill James made a few revisions in the paperback edition of the New BJHBA including big downgrades for Jeff Bagwell and Mark McGwire. In that edition Suttles would be third behind Gehrig and Foxx if James put him at firstbase. (I have the revisions from "Blueblood" iirc.)

[jalbright]

. Tonight Collins would get the nod only because I give some credit for his work as field manager.

Paul, please rank the players only as players. If you're saying that a player/manager deserves some leadership bonus, that's fine, but the rule #14 specifically makes this request. Other than a leadership bonus for a player/manager, the place to give credit for roles other than playing is in the contributor category. Thanks.

[Paul Wendt]

I expect to vote for thirdbasemen Jimmy Collins and Heinie Groh. Tonight Collins would get the nod only because I give some credit for his work as field manager.
Done, slots 11 and 9. I don't know that Collins as captain/manager was crucially involved in positioning the defense or winning arguments with umpires so I am dropping him a couple of rungs from the prelim.

Amos Rusie takes rank 10. He was a dominating pitcher for almost a decade, what some late 20th century writers would calll "elemental" or "a force of nature" --like Rube Waddell but with more top seasons and higher in the annual workhorse ranks. Now that I think of it, his 19th century nickname "the Hoosier thunderbolt" actually fits that naturalisitic language.

When they moved the pitchers back five feet it may have seemed that Rusie alone was unaffected. In fact his strikeouts plummeted from about 300 to about 200 per season, much more than his innings, but he led the league in strikeout rate all three seasons '93-95 (only two of '90-92) and by ERA+ he improved because the batters gained so much more in their matchups with other pitchers.

Rusie missed 1896 in dispute with one of baseball's worst executives, Andrew Freedman. After a fine 1897 season, 322 innings at ERA+ 163, he injured his shoulder on a pickoff play late in 1898, 300 innings at 114. Newspapers covered him as a holdout in 1900 and 1901. He did come back in 1901, now with Cincinnati after the Mathewson transactions. Despite a 1-1 tie in ten innings his three-game season was poor, probably because he was out of shape physically. The newspapers of 1900 and 1901 also covered the Rusies as a married couple, for Mrs. Rusie was one day suing for divorce and next day reconciled with Amos.

(The Hall of Merit is now discussing and ranking its eighteen member pitchers in group 1893-1923, Rusie to Rixey. There I have learned of his 1898 injury only recently, from Brock Hanke who calls it career-ending. I have not read much news from 1899 and I don't know whether the press covered him as a holdout or an injury or celebrity couple during that winter.)

I may vote for another 3B, Ezra Sutton, or for some of the 1880s infielders Jack Glasscock, Hardy Richardson, and Bid McPhee.
Jack Glasscock gets the last spot on my ballot. Glasscock was a rich man's Bobby Wallace about twenty years earlier. Last year the Hall of Merit ranked him number four on a "pre-1943" ballot with eligibility defined by the Cooperstown rules. At four he was far behind Dahlen, White, and Paul Hines but ahead of Gore and Groh from my own ballot here; also ahead of Start and Sutton, Bennett and Caruthers, and Sherry Magee from other ballots here. More than fifteen years ago a blue ribbon panel of 19th century baseball historians put Glasscock in a group of six players urgently recommended to the Hall of Fame Committee on Veterans (the VC to you).

Here I am continuing the tradition of using the 12 slot flexibly. This is the first listing for Glasscock, who should not be overlooked. Heinie Groh and Bid McPhee have debuted high on some ballots this year after Ubiquitous gave them their first listings last year. I believe that means that some people had overlooked them as candidates; otherwise they would debut in slots 9-12.

Glasscock isn't my kind of player for a high ranking. Nor are two others of the infielders I named (quoted above), Ezra Sutton and Bid McPhee. I value the long careers a little more than Tiboreau does (just above) but I am on his side of the median among the current group of voters. By getting Glasscock out there today, a few years before he is likely to climb on my ballot, I am writing partly for the careerists who have Zack Wheat near the top and must not be far from listing Bobby Wallace.

[jalbright]

We're under 55 hours to go in this election, with four folks who voted in last election yet to vote.

I don't expect to be around Saturday morning, so it may be Saturday night or Sunday morning when I get the results from this election posted and the new election thread up.

[BlueBlood]

1. Amos Rusie
2. George Wright
3. Charlie Bennett
4. Paul Hines
5. Zack Wheat
6. Pud Galvin
7. Jimmy Collins
8. Rube Waddell
9. Ross Barnes
10. John M Ward
11. Ezra Sutton
12. Fred Clarke

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Jim Creighton
3. William Hulbert
4. Bill Klem
5. Kennesaw Landis

[Paul Wendt]

Bill Klem is suddenly on "everyone's" ballots, usually in fifth place. He may be elected before he commonly rises above the three spot. It's intriguing how many candidates have garnered a vote or two, now typically in the middle of the ballot, without "picking up fives" (new voters).

[jalbright]

We have elected George Wright, Louis Santop and Amos Rusie with 20 ballots cast this election. The official results:


player…………….. votes pts
Wright , George 15 128
Santop , Louis 13 106
Rusie , Amos 14 104
Barnes , Ross 11 101
Ward , John M. 12 96
Hines , Paul 11 86
Sisler , George 14 80
Magee , Sherry 8 72
Clarke , Fred 12 68
Collins , Jimmy 11 67
Wheat , Zack 9 53
Jackson , Joe 5 50
Vance , Dazzy 10 45
Traynor , Pie 5 34
Radbourn , C 8 31
Bennett , C 4 30
Keeler , Willie 4 27
Stovey , H 5 25
Thompson , S 4 25
Groh , Heinie 3 24
Carey , Max 3 23
Sutton , Ezra 4 22
Terry , Bill 5 21
Flick , Elmer 3 19
McPhee , Bid 3 19
Maranville , R 3 18
Waddell , Rube 4 17
Start , Joe 2 15
Caruthers , B 2 14
Galvin , Pud 3 14
Grant , Frank 3 14
Johnson , HR 2 13
Hoyt, Waite 1 12
Joss , Addie 1 11
Bresnahan , R 3 10
Coveleski , S 2 10
Roush , Edd 2 10
Chance , Frank 1 8
Browning , P 2 5
Gore , George 1 5
Pennock, Herb 1 5
Tinker, Joe 1 5
Evers , Johnny 1 4
Jennings , H 1 3
Grimes , B 1 2
Hill , Pete.....2 2
Kling, Johnny 1 2
Pearce , Dickey 1 2
Duffy , Hugh 1 1
Glasscock , J 1 1
Kelley , Joe 1 1


In the contributor voting, we had 18 ballots, and we have elected William Hulbert. The official results:


contributor… votes pts
Hulbert , W 15 55
Creighton , Jim 10 37
Cartwright , A 9 36
Klem, Bill.. 15 32
Richter , F 10 26
Barrow , Ed 5 13
Landis , K 6 13
Commiskey , C 2 9
Clarke , Fred 2 8
Reach , A. J. 3 7
Doubleday , A 2 6
Dunn , Jack 2 6
Taylor , C. I. 2 6
Spink, Albert 2 5
Hanlon , Ned 1 3
Caylor , O. P. 1 2
Conlan , C 1 2
Pearce, Dickey 1 2
Ward , John M. 1 2