Iron Triangle/Willets Point Demolition/Redevelopment

[metsforever7515]

Since we always talk about this in the Citi construction thread, just figured that I would make a thread for it because this plan looks to be getting better and better every day.

Here's the plan:

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh82/fightinitalian21/iwannalivetthereifithappens.jpg

Move if this is in the wrong forum or delete if there is already a thread for this.

[BiggieSmalls]

Good thread.

There was a hearing this morning on the full vacate notices issued for the properties on 126th street between 37th and 38th Ave.

News reports say there was demo done by the city on the Vina Aut Glass property this weekend.

Cant come down soon enough

[metsforever7515]

Good thread.

There was a hearing this morning on the full vacate notices issued for the properties on 126th street between 37th and 38th Ave.

News reports say there was demo done by the city on the Vina Aut Glass property this weekend.

Cant come down soon enough

Amen to that. Even a bunch of demolition equipment would look better than what's there now.

[Mongoose]

What's wrong with you people?

The transit fare is going up to $2.50; Firehouses are being closed; Police jobs are being eliminated; teachers are being laid off; there's no money for anything.

The fact that public money is already being spent on this is sickening. Without doubt the public will get stuck with the bill. Even if private financing is brought in, I don't want to see one penny of public money going to this unnecessary boondoggle. There are many many better ways of spending it.

What exactly makes you so enthusiastic about a plan conservatively budgeted at $3 Billion dollars, in which the only result will be to increase the value of Fred Wilpon's lease?

There's a difference between rooting for the Mets and rooting for Fred Wilpon's wallet...

[BiggieSmalls]

this has nothing to do with Wilpons wallet.

The Mets organization has very little to gain from the development across the street. This will be a BIG WIN for Mets fans. In terms of the amenities and entertainment options available before and after games. That doesnt help the Wilpons or the Mets. If anything it hurts them in that people have more options before games than entering the park and buying $9 beers or over priced meals in the "clubs"

Conversely, the dollars for property acquisition are fully budgetted and will be recouped when a developer is chosen. The infrastructure (highway ramps etc) is partially paid for by the State and Feds so that isnt really an issue. And the amount of jobs that will be created over the course of the development will be an economic boost.

That MTA has to raise fares is unrelated to this project. The MTA has its own budget and has to meet it's own needs. In fact,the MTA land to the south of the proposed development could arguably be worth MORE if the development is complete. Thus putting extra dollars in the MTA pockets and lowering operating costs.

[GuitarPunk2512]

cant wait for this to get built. future home of the islanders? ..nets? hopefully.

[NYMets523]

There's a difference between rooting for the Mets and rooting for Fred Wilpon's wallet...

Developing the Iron Triangle into something more than chop shops is not going to make Wilpon a richer man. The Mets will sell out games for the next several years regardless of whether or not that area is developed.

By creating a neighborhood around the ballpark that is fan friendly is better for everyone. Do you honestly believe those chop shops are drawing more business today than a bar, restaurant, or store would during the baseball season? Yes, people running those businesses will be out of jobs; unfortunate but that's how the world works. Instead, new businesses, which will be far more profitable, will be established.

You need to get over this irrational hatred of the Wilpons. It seems they can do no good in your eyes. Heck, if Fred Wilpon saved a baby from a burning building, you'd say he'd have only done it for publicity. He is not a perfect owner. There's really no perfect owner in baseball. However, he deserves far more credit than you give him. For example, he could have sold the naming rights for Shea (as the Blue Jays did for Rogers Centre) but never did.

cant wait for this to get built. future home of the islanders? ..nets? hopefully.

Nets want to move to Brooklyn. They'd probably move to Newark before they'd move to this area. The Islanders future looks really uncertain. Doesn't their owner want to sell the team?

[metsforever7515]

In fact many of those chop shop owners will be relocated and not be out of a job. The city is making sure they do this in a manner that is good for everyone. Many of the shops are reaching agreements with the city and avoiding eminent domain. This will benefit the city as a whole, not just the Mets.

[Mongoose]

this has nothing to do with Wilpons wallet.

The Mets organization has very little to gain from the development across the street. This will be a BIG WIN for Mets fans. In terms of the amenities and entertainment options available before and after games. That doesnt help the Wilpons or the Mets. If anything it hurts them in that people have more options before games than entering the park and buying $9 beers or over priced meals in the "clubs"

Conversely, the dollars for property acquisition are fully budgetted and will be recouped when a developer is chosen. The infrastructure (highway ramps etc) is partially paid for by the State and Feds so that isnt really an issue. And the amount of jobs that will be created over the course of the development will be an economic boost.

That MTA has to raise fares is unrelated to this project. The MTA has its own budget and has to meet it's own needs. In fact,the MTA land to the south of the proposed development could arguably be worth MORE if the development is complete. Thus putting extra dollars in the MTA pockets and lowering operating costs.

Wilpon wants to turn his rental space into a 365 day a year money maker, as opposed to an 81 day a year money maker. That's the benefit to him. Right now there's no traffic in the area any time other than Mets games.

The benefit to his wallet is enormous. So is the cost to all of us. We're already paying to buy out those businesses that are willing to be bought out; we're going to pay to litigate with those that don't want to be bought out; after all the likely court cases are over, we'll pay even more to buy the others out if the Wilpon forces win; and, of course, the whole thing will be underwritten with the usual handouts, incentives, tax-exempt bonds, etc.

All the money to make it happen is being taken out of public coffers and if the deal happens, with all the usual breaks and incentives, the developers and of course Wilpon won't even add to the tax base!

If, as might be supposed, Sterling Equities develops part of the area, Wilpon will get even more handouts, while not contributing to the tax base.

As a resident of New York State and The United States of America, as I'm sure most of you are, I don't really feel like seeing anymore Federal money going to enrich these guys some more. Not while we're losing policemen, firehouses, teachers, paying more for everything at every level and being told we have to tighten our belts. If Federal money is going to go to build infrastructure for the developers' benefit, why not allocate some to save the firehouses and policemen?

The life that's saved by the extra policeman, firehouse, etc. might be your own.

What are your priorities, anyway?

[BiggieSmalls]

You made a big assumption that Sterling Equities is the developer of the Willets Point area. That is very unlikely and probably completely incorrect.

So you are talking about retail space? What? The team store? a few locations in the Admin building? really?? that is an enormous amount of added revenue?

Sure The Mets want the place to be a mixed use entertainment/retail/hotel complex but I think the benefits of building this are largely asthetic for the Mets.

Who wants that Hot Mess less than 30 feet from your front door? I would think they would rather have a decent neighborhood to walk outside the Admin offices on a cold January night than have to have an armed escort to get to your car.

Again, the benefit to ALL new yorkers, in terms of entertainment/hotel/convention and retail .. not to mention the added housing stock far out weighs moving 200 or so tenant businesses to a real industrial park -- like Steinway or College Point.

[BiggieSmalls]

<I>If Federal money is going to go to build infrastructure for the developers' benefit, why not allocate some to save the firehouses and policemen?</I>

ummm because you can not allocate federal department of transportation highway funds to pay for firehouses and policemen? You have to spend them on roads and bridges .

[NYMets523]

So you are talking about retail space? What? The team store? a few locations in the Admin building? really?? that is an enormous amount of added revenue?

Just to add to that, the majority of revenue teams make from selling merchandise goes into the revenue sharing. So teams aren't exactly rolling in a pile of money from their merchandise sales.

[BiggieSmalls]

All the money to make it happen is being taken out of public coffers and if the deal happens, with all the usual breaks and incentives, the developers and of course Wilpon won't even add to the tax base!



Do you think that 200 auto repair shops including 37 muffler shops and 25 auto glass shops employing maybe 1200 people (mostly non documented illegal workers) and collecting most of their revenue in cash without sales tax generates more for the tax base than building 5,000 residential units, commercial office space, a hotel and convention center, a school and a retail/entertainment center totalling millions of square feet over the course of the next 10 years?

[Mongoose]

Developing the Iron Triangle into something more than chop shops is not going to make Wilpon a richer man. The Mets will sell out games for the next several years regardless of whether or not that area is developed.

By creating a neighborhood around the ballpark that is fan friendly is better for everyone. Do you honestly believe those chop shops are drawing more business today than a bar, restaurant, or store would during the baseball season? Yes, people running those businesses will be out of jobs; unfortunate but that's how the world works. Instead, new businesses, which will be far more profitable, will be established.

You need to get over this irrational hatred of the Wilpons. It seems they can do no good in your eyes. Heck, if Fred Wilpon saved a baby from a burning building, you'd say he'd have only done it for publicity. He is not a perfect owner. There's really no perfect owner in baseball. However, he deserves far more credit than you give him. For example, he could have sold the naming rights for Shea (as the Blue Jays did for Rogers Centre) but never did.



Nets want to move to Brooklyn. They'd probably move to Newark before they'd move to this area. The Islanders future looks really uncertain. Doesn't their owner want to sell the team?

I don't have the time to restate all the reasons I think Wilpon is a lousy owner. If anyone cares, I've posted many times about this - you can look up my old posts; I don't feel like rehashing again. Basically, his damned moral prudery was responsible for breaking up the greatest team in history and replacing it with garbage. I never recovered from Dykstra and McDowell for Samuel and all the rest of the miserable trades that got rid of all the great great players from the mid 80s. Ever since, it's been nothing but bland free-agent mercenaries with no fire; losers.

I could have accepted "Citi Field" more easily if he hadn't reduced the 35,000 affordable seats of Upper Deck and Mezzanine down to the 15,000 seating capacity of Promenade. When I found out about this, I said to myself: "How is it possible this greedy jerk is building a new stadium in NYC with the capacity of Wrigley Field and nobody's stopping him?". The guy wanted to reduce capacity to a level where he could play scalper and raise ticket prices through the roof.

Promenade will be a quick sell out - mostly season ticket holders paying hundreds or thousand up front which means the tickets there are no longer all that inexpensive, so the only options for games left from the ticket office will be his $50 bleacher seats and other even more expensive seats.

In looking at the pictures of the place, it's a step down from Shea. There are far more obstructed views now: in order to create a big uninterrupted shopping mall on the Promenade Concourse to sell even more overpriced garbage, he installed those ghastly staircases that will obstruct the view of a large portion of seats in Promenade. As far as I know, it's the only HOK park with this kind of problem. But what do you expect? Why should he care about sightlines? All he cares about is squeezing as much money from the fans as possible.

But this has nothing to do with the Willets Point fiasco, other than the fact that he's initiating the whole thing in yet another display of greed and gall.

In the case of the Willets Point boondoggle (it's not a "redevelopment" because the area was never developed in the first place) the project is all bad.

Why? Plenty of reasons, but I'll keep it simple:

In the current economic climate, spending a cent of public money on a project like this is insane!

[BiggieSmalls]

Not to mention the estimated 20,000 construction jobs and 5,000 plus permanent jobs created in the development zone.

[metsforever7515]

Not to mention the estimated 20,000 construction jobs and 5,000 plus permanent jobs created in the development zone.

Not to mention a planned apartment complex.

[Mongoose]

You made a big assumption that Sterling Equities is the developer of the Willets Point area. That is very unlikely and probably completely incorrect.

So you are talking about retail space? What? The team store? a few locations in the Admin building? really?? that is an enormous amount of added revenue?

Sure The Mets want the place to be a mixed use entertainment/retail/hotel complex but I think the benefits of building this are largely asthetic for the Mets.

Who wants that Hot Mess less than 30 feet from your front door? I would think they would rather have a decent neighborhood to walk outside the Admin offices on a cold January night than have to have an armed escort to get to your car.

Again, the benefit to ALL new yorkers, in terms of entertainment/hotel/convention and retail .. not to mention the added housing stock far out weighs moving 200 or so tenant businesses to a real industrial park -- like Steinway or College Point.

I've been a fan of the team for decades and nobody even noticed the area beyond the outfield parking lot until Wilpon decided he wanted "a mixed use entertainment/retail/hotel complex". All of a sudden that segment of Mets fans that are Wilpon Zombie People begin acting like the area way beyond the outfield has somehow been a detriment to Mets baseball for the last 45 years.

It's all about Wilpon's bottom line, yet again.

Wise up: a fatter wallet for Wilpon does not benefit Mets fans in the least.

[Mongoose]

<I>If Federal money is going to go to build infrastructure for the developers' benefit, why not allocate some to save the firehouses and policemen?</I>

ummm because you can not allocate federal department of transportation highway funds to pay for firehouses and policemen? You have to spend them on roads and bridges .

The DOT money has to come from somewhere; I will assume the place it's being taken from has more merit than this project since this project is totally without merit.

For some reason some people have forgotten that baseball is played between foul lines on a diamond. Food courts in the stadium are a waste of money that adds nothing to the experience. Food courts outside the stadium are a waste of money that adds nothing to the experience. If you're interested in Mets baseball, I don't see why you give a damn about blue collar business being conducted outside the ballpark. Why do you care enough to want $3 Billion of largely public money spent on it?

As long as a single policeman, fireman or teacher is being laid off in this City, any talk of this Willets Point nonsense is obscene.

[BiggieSmalls]

Are you kidding? Ive been a fan since the 70's and have loathed that area since then. as have many other people who wandered outside the parking lot on game day or parked under the elevated highways at night games.

Nothing but broken english speaking people harassing you as you drive down 126th street. Now it is less than 30 feet from the front door.

Not to mention the historic problem of people stealing car parts from the stadium parking lot only to find these same parts for sale (cash only!) at the auto parts tin shacks across the street.

[NYMets523]

I don't have the time to restate all the reasons I think Wilpon is a lousy owner. If anyone cares, I've posted many times about this - you can look up my old posts; I don't feel like rehashing again. Basically, his damned moral prudery was responsible for breaking up the greatest team in history and replacing it with garbage. I never recovered from Dykstra and McDowell for Samuel and all the rest of the miserable trades that got rid of all the great great players from the mid 80s. Ever since, it's been nothing but bland free-agent mercenaries with no fire; losers.
1999 and 2000 were not losing teams. Nor was 2006. 2007 and 2008 had winning seasons despite the endings. And these shortcomings fall on the GM anyway.

I could have accepted "Citi Field" more easily if he hadn't reduced the 35,000 affordable seats of Upper Deck and Mezzanine down to the 15,000 seating capacity of Promenade. When I found out about this, I said to myself: "How is it possible this greedy jerk is building a new stadium in NYC with the capacity of Wrigley Field and nobody's stopping him?". The guy wanted to reduce capacity to a level where he could play scalper and raise ticket prices through the roof.

Citi Field has 4,000 more seats than Wrigley Field.

Promenade will be a quick sell out - mostly season ticket holders paying hundreds or thousand up front which means the tickets there are no longer all that inexpensive, so the only options for games left from the ticket office will be his $50 bleacher seats and other even more expensive seats.
This is the case for virtually every stadium in baseball; especially those in big markets.

In looking at the pictures of the place, it's a step down from Shea.
You're delirious.

There are far more obstructed views now: in order to create a big uninterrupted shopping mall on the Promenade Concourse to sell even more overpriced garbage, he installed those ghastly staircases that will obstruct the view of a large portion of seats in Promenade. As far as I know, it's the only HOK park with this kind of problem.

But what do you expect? Why should he care about sightlines? All he cares about is squeezing as much money from the fans as possible.
What obstructed view seats are you talking about? Are you referring to these staircases? Because there are no seats behind them.

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5720/citi0321092.jpg



But this has nothing to do with the Willets Point fiasco, other than the fact that he's initiating the whole thing in yet another display of greed and gall.

In the case of the Willets Point boondoggle (it's not a "redevelopment" because the area was never developed in the first place) the project is all bad.

Why? Plenty of reasons, but I'll keep it simple:

[quote]In the current economic climate, spending a cent of public money on a project like this is insane!
You're absolutely right. The state would be much better off keeping those chop shops where they are instead of developing the area and establishing stores, restaurants, and other businesses.

[BiggieSmalls]

The 3 Billion being spent is not "largely public money". That is simply false.

You should venture outside of NYC and visit parks where a vibrant pregame and post game scene has developed from areas not much better than the current iron triangle.

If you just want to watch the game then buy standing room only for $10 and watch the game. Or stay home and root on television. If others want to go to a game, arrive early and leave late to enjoy the company of other people and add to the economy why do you begrudge them that?

And I'm sorry, but nothing about this project takes away from teachers, firemen and policemen. This will ultimately be a revenue generating vibrant neighborhood where teachers, firemen and policemen can live, work, visit, send their kids to school and enjoy themselves. Rather than a crime infested, polluted area that reminds most of the slums of some third world country.

[BiggieSmalls]

I have a lot of great memories of Shea but i seriously got the shkeeves every time i entered that place.

[NYMets523]

The DOT money has to come from somewhere; I will assume the place it's being taken from has more merit than this project since this project is totally without merit.
There is much the city and state could benefit from the project.

For some reason some people have forgotten that baseball is played between foul lines on a diamond. Food courts in the stadium are a waste of money that adds nothing to the experience. Food courts outside the stadium are a waste of money that adds nothing to the experience.
Are you really this ignorant? Have you ever been to a stadium that has a fan-friendly neighborhood right outside the stadium? If you haven't, go to Wrigley, Fenway, or even Yankee Stadium. It adds a great deal to the experience of going to the game. No one goes to the game solely to see the game. People like the surrounding areas with places to shop or eat at. If people didn't, stadiums would just be seats and the field.

If you're interested in Mets baseball, I don't see why you give a damn about blue collar business being conducted outside the ballpark. Why do you care enough to want $3 Billion of largely public money spent on it?
You certainly have a great deal of interest.

As long as a single policeman, fireman or teacher is being laid off in this City, any talk of this Willets Point nonsense is obscene.
The development of Willets Point is independent of the layoffs of police, firemen, and teachers.

[Mongoose]

The development of Willets Point is independent of the layoffs of police, firemen, and teachers.

Then where's the money coming from to buy out and relocate the existing businesses?

[Mongoose]

Are you really this ignorant? Have you ever been to a stadium that has a fan-friendly neighborhood right outside the stadium? If you haven't, go to Wrigley, Fenway, or even Yankee Stadium. It adds a great deal to the experience of going to the game. No one goes to the game solely to see the game. People like the surrounding areas with places to shop or eat at. If people didn't, stadiums would just be seats and the field.

Queens and Manhattan have plenty of bars. Walk to Flushing; take a 20 minute subway ride to Manhattan; the City is your oyster.

Just because some people don't have the imagination to be able to go more than 20 feet to a bar or restaurant after a ballgame doesn't mean $3 Billion needs to be spent to help them out.

And don't fool yourself: one way or another the public usually foots the bill for the bulk of these initiatives.

[BiggieSmalls]

400 million has been allocated for property purchases and relocations and highway improvements.

This 400 million is in the scope of a 60 BILLION dollar budget and represents a fraction of the dollars allocated to long term investments in creating jobs and improving the lifestyle of citizens. This is a very important line item in that it is what becomes the engine of future growth in revenues and jobs. It is a prudent investment in the City's future.

That said, most of the property acquisition/relocation expense will be recouped from the developer. The jobs and tax revenue created will more than cover any expenditure in this long term investment.

[metsforever7515]

No matter what fight people put up this plan will significantly benefit the City and the borough of Queens.

[BiggieSmalls]

Just because some people don't have the imagination to be able to go more than 20 feet to a bar or restaurant after a ballgame doesn't mean $3 Billion needs to be spent to help them out.



If you think this development is all about having a bar to go to after a ball game you are truly delirious. True that that is a major benefit of Mets fans visiting the area but there are countless benefits that have already been laid out here and ignored.

[NYMets523]

Queens and Manhattan have plenty of bars. Walk to Flushing; take a 20 minute subway ride to Manhattan; the City is your oyster.

Just because some people don't have the imagination to be able to go more than 20 feet to a bar or restaurant after a ballgame doesn't mean $3 Billion needs to be spent to help them out.

And don't fool yourself: one way or another the public usually foots the bill for the bulk of these initiatives.

You really aren't getting it.

[metsforever7515]

You really aren't getting it.

No he really isn't.

[BiggieSmalls]

that is someone who has never experienced a real baseball neighborhood like exists in many other places.

[Mongoose]

If you think this development is all about having a bar to go to after a ball game you are truly delirious. True that that is a major benefit of Mets fans visiting the area but there are countless benefits that have already been laid out here and ignored.

They haven't been ignored. Fred Wilpon will realize an enormous benefit.

As for housing and commerce in the City, the citizens would have a more immediate and cost effective impact if the money is funneled into areas that don't require landfill, complete installation of sewer lines and other infrastructure; that way the infusion of cash could get to work fueling business immediately without a long and costly process of making unusable land usable.

Let's not forget that the only reason Shea Stadium never got a dome was because it would have sunk into the swamp from the weight if it had.

Almost anyplace else in the City would benefit more from this sort of infusion of cash.

But as stated, in an environment where police, firemen and teachers are being cut, it's crazy to spend one penny on this type of development.

[Mongoose]

400 million has been allocated for property purchases and relocations and highway improvements.

This 400 million is in the scope of a 60 BILLION dollar budget and represents a fraction of the dollars allocated to long term investments in creating jobs and improving the lifestyle of citizens. This is a very important line item in that it is what becomes the engine of future growth in revenues and jobs. It is a prudent investment in the City's future.

That said, most of the property acquisition/relocation expense will be recouped from the developer. The jobs and tax revenue created will more than cover any expenditure in this long term investment.

400 million dollars would pay for a lot of policemen, firemen and teachers.

Creation of jobs? These jobs are being eliminated because the City is crying poverty, but they still have hundreds of millions of dollars to give to real estate developers for an insane project like this???

This allocation of money represents a loss of the kind of jobs the City needs most.

I'd prefer to see the jobs of the policemen firemen and teachers retained, thank you very much. I think saving these jobs will improve the lifestyle of citizens more than a glossy Potempkin village across the street from the sham Ebbets Field.

We've been hearing about the supposed benefits of all these real estate boondoggles for years now, and the City seems to have less money than ever. After spending a lifetime in this City I've come to the conclusion that these big projects are the bunk, and those who talk about "engines of future growth in revenues and jobs" while draining hundreds of millions from the public treasury are scoundrels.

[NYMets523]

Let's not forget that the only reason Shea Stadium never got a dome was because it would have sunk into the swamp from the weight if it had.
And because Shea was an old, outdated stadium and adding a dome to it would have been dumb. It was much more practical to build a new stadium.

But as stated, in an environment where police, firemen and teachers are being cut, it's crazy to spend one penny on this type of development.
What is it with you and policemen, firemen, and teachers?

400 million dollars would pay for a lot of policemen, firemen and teachers.
Why don't we just give all $60 billion to policemen, firemen, and teachers?

You fail to realize that there are more occupations than policemen, firemen, and teachers. Why aren't you worried about other jobs?

Creation of jobs? These jobs are being eliminated because the City is crying poverty, but they still have hundreds of millions of dollars to give to real estate developers for an insane project like this???
How is creating new business not creating new jobs?

This allocation of money represents a loss of the kind of jobs the City needs most.
The city needs to worry about more jobs than just the ones you keep regurgitating.

I'd prefer to see the jobs of the policemen firemen and teachers retained, thank you very much. I think saving these jobs will improve the lifestyle of citizens more than a glossy Potempkin village across the street from the sham Ebbets Field.

We've been hearing about the supposed benefits of all these real estate boondoggles for years now, and the City seems to have less money than ever. After spending a lifetime in this City I've come to the conclusion that these big projects are the bunk, and those who talk about "engines of future growth in revenues and jobs" while draining hundreds of millions from the public treasury are scoundrels.

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you anymore. It's not going anywhere. You keep spewing the same lines over and over: "Wilpon is greedy, developing the slums around Citi Field is a waste of money, the only jobs that matter are policemen, firemen, and teachers."

You're being very narrow-minded and obstinate on the issue.

[BiggieSmalls]

Its the same old tired arguments.

To equate investing a small fraction of the city's budget in a long term project that will create tens of thousands of jobs with losing jobs for "policemen, firemen and teachers" is just laughable.

There will be more teacher jobs when this project is complete

There will be more police and fireman jobs when this project is complete.

There will be tens of thousand of construction jobs created during the project.

There will be thousands of full time jobs created in the devlopment zone/

Most of the existing jobs in the zone will be relocated to more appropriate areas.

Those who are not relocated will be retrained as part of the plan.

New Yorkers will receive over 5,000 new housing units including up to 40% for low income.

The city will get a new convention center and hotel complex that will bring hundreds of millions in new revenue into the city's coffers.

A historically polluted and blighted area that is an embarassment to this city and country will be cleaned up.

This plan is a win win.

All the opposition can do is focus on short term challenges in the economy that are really unaffected by this development.

[metsforever7515]

Its the same old tired arguments.

To equate investing a small fraction of the city's budget in a long term project that will create tens of thousands of jobs with losing jobs for "policemen, firemen and teachers" is just laughable.

There will be more teacher jobs when this project is complete

There will be more police and fireman jobs when this project is complete.

There will be tens of thousand of construction jobs created during the project.

There will be thousands of full time jobs created in the devlopment zone/

Most of the existing jobs in the zone will be relocated to more appropriate areas.

Those who are not relocated will be retrained as part of the plan.

New Yorkers will receive over 5,000 new housing units including up to 40% for low income.

The city will get a new convention center and hotel complex that will bring hundreds of millions in new revenue into the city's coffers.

A historically polluted and blighted area that is an embarassment to this city and country will be cleaned up.

This plan is a win win.

All the opposition can do is focus on short term challenges in the economy that are really unaffected by this development.

I don't think he realizes that BY THE TIME THIS PROJECT IS SAID AND DONE WITH WE WILL BE OUT OF THE RECESSION. This can't go on forever. The economy will be better by the time this is done.

[BiggieSmalls]

He also fails to realize that

1. New York City has more policemen and Firemen than ANY City in the World.

2. New York City spends more per capita on public education than any city in the World.

3. If these bloated bureaucracies would get a better handle on their expenses they could allocate their already exorbitant funding where the rubber meets the road.

This project is coming to fruition after decades of languishing. It will be a great think for Mets Fans and NYC residents alike

[Mongoose]

Its the same old tired arguments.

To equate investing a small fraction of the city's budget in a long term project that will create tens of thousands of jobs with losing jobs for "policemen, firemen and teachers" is just laughable.

There will be more teacher jobs when this project is complete

There will be more police and fireman jobs when this project is complete.

There will be tens of thousand of construction jobs created during the project.

There will be thousands of full time jobs created in the devlopment zone/

Most of the existing jobs in the zone will be relocated to more appropriate areas.

Those who are not relocated will be retrained as part of the plan.

New Yorkers will receive over 5,000 new housing units including up to 40% for low income.


These claims are dishonest. We've had over a decade of rampant real estate overdevelopment fueled by weird, fishy loans that are collapsing on themselves and screwing everyone else in the process; I've yet to see any prosperity as a result. Your whole real estate hustler/carnival barker come on is the thing that's tired and old.

There's already a ton of development all over the City and it doesn't seem to have done a thing to promote any general prosperity.

1) Prove me wrong by explaining exactly how, for example:

"There will be more teacher jobs when this project is complete

There will be more police and fireman jobs when this project is complete.

and...

2) Let's say I go along with you and agree that this $3+ billion boondoggle is a great boon to humanity... Please explain why it has to take place on a swamp which will require many millions of public dollars for landfill and to build sewers and infrastructure?

Why not invest the money on someplace where the supposed benefits of development can be realized faster and for less money?

[BiggieSmalls]

First off your continued contention that this is a "3 billion dollar boon doggle" of public dollars is a mischarecterization

The development will not be done ont he City's dime. It will be done by private developers.

Ill say again, the amount of dollars committed by the City is 400 million dollars. Most of which will be recouped in the sale of the land tot he developer.

Many developments have taken place on landfil and on property that otherwise did not have any infrastructure. This has been going on for decades. There is nothing different with the property at Willets Point. It is an historic ash and garbage dump that has been mistreated and neglected for 50 years.

The 60 acres of land land at Willets Point is immediately adjacent to the largest park in the City and a brand new sports complex. It is sandwiched between two of the fastest growing areas of this city. It lies at the crux of three major highway routes and near two major international airports.

If is an ideal parcel of land to develop into something more useful than what it is now. Is it the only parcel in the city that can be developed? No. Hudson Yards, Atlantic Yards and Sunny side Yards are three parcels that area also ripe for re development.

It is the role of government to recognize that long term investment is needed to create housing and jobs and lifestyle centers that can sustain and build this economy for the next 25 years.

If we took your point of view in the 20s and 30's we would never have places like Rockefeller Center or other large scale private developments. If we took your point of view in other decades we would not have many many other places in this city that have since become icons of the city.

How will there be more teachers, olice and fire jobs when this is complete?

This is a ten year project to complete. At that time based on the population growth expected in the city three will certainly be a higher total budget and more city services on an absolute basis than there are today.

To focus on a one or maybe two year blip in the economy and say we should redirect all long term investments to further fund services that could cut waste fraud and abuse and make up any small differences in absolute dollar cuts is short term thinking and not providing for long term planning.


To say the real estate development boom over the last 10 or so years (arguably the last 30 years) has not provided tens of thousands of jobs and billions of dollars in tax revenue for this city is really not seeing the complete picture./

Would your suggestion be that this city not fund any long term planning goals and dump every last cent of the budget into paying for more civil servants and government jobs?

[Mongoose]

First off your continued contention that this is a "3 billion dollar boon doggle" of public dollars is a mischarecterization

The development will not be done ont he City's dime. It will be done by private developers.

Ill say again, the amount of dollars committed by the City is 400 million dollars. Most of which will be recouped in the sale of the land tot he developer.

Many developments have taken place on landfil and on property that otherwise did not have any infrastructure. This has been going on for decades. There is nothing different with the property at Willets Point. It is an historic ash and garbage dump that has been mistreated and neglected for 50 years.

The 60 acres of land land at Willets Point is immediately adjacent to the largest park in the City and a brand new sports complex. It is sandwiched between two of the fastest growing areas of this city. It lies at the crux of three major highway routes and near two major international airports.

If is an ideal parcel of land to develop into something more useful than what it is now. Is it the only parcel in the city that can be developed? No. Hudson Yards, Atlantic Yards and Sunny side Yards are three parcels that area also ripe for re development.

It is the role of government to recognize that long term investment is needed to create housing and jobs and lifestyle centers that can sustain and build this economy for the next 25 years.

If we took your point of view in the 20s and 30's we would never have places like Rockefeller Center or other large scale private developments. If we took your point of view in other decades we would not have many many other places in this city that have since become icons of the city.

How will there be more teachers, olice and fire jobs when this is complete?

This is a ten year project to complete. At that time based on the population growth expected in the city three will certainly be a higher total budget and more city services on an absolute basis than there are today.

To focus on a one or maybe two year blip in the economy and say we should redirect all long term investments to further fund services that could cut waste fraud and abuse and make up any small differences in absolute dollar cuts is short term thinking and not providing for long term planning.


To say the real estate development boom over the last 10 or so years (arguably the last 30 years) has not provided tens of thousands of jobs and billions of dollars in tax revenue for this city is really not seeing the complete picture./

Would your suggestion be that this city not fund any long term planning goals and dump every last cent of the budget into paying for more civil servants and government jobs?

My position here is pretty simple: If New York City can't afford to maintain basic services for its citizens, it has no business funding private business ventures for billionaires.

[SilentKiller]

Who would want to live on the toxic land that has been contaminated by all the auto shops in the area? In Brooklyn people who are living in former factory areas around Greenpoint have started to report health problems due to living in the area and I can imagine it would be much much worse in Willets Point.

And are some of you really comparing jobs that pay at best $12 a hour to jobs such as police, firefighters and teachers?

[NYMets523]

My position here is pretty simple: If New York City can't afford to maintain basic services for its citizens, it has no business funding private business ventures for billionaires.

Even if these private business ventures will benefit the citizens?

[BiggieSmalls]

The city budget is 60 billion dollars.

Over $6,000 for every man woman and child in residence.

There are over 35,000 uniformed police offers and 15,000 firemen. Which is nearly three times the next highest in force strength in the U.S. The budget of NYC would make it a top ten STATE in the union. And is larger then many developed countries with many many more people.

That should be plenty to fund an acceptable level of city services.

A city SHOULD invest a portion of its budget in this type of long term investment that creates jobs, increases the tax base and provides for long term quality of life improvements

As a Mets fan and A New Yorker this development would benefit me immensely. I think most Mets fans, if asked, would support this project whole heartedly. ASking why it wasnt done sooner.

[BiggieSmalls]

And are some of you really comparing jobs that pay at best $12 a hour to jobs such as police, firefighters and teachers?


The jobs created would be over 20,00 construction jobs and over 5,000 permanent jobs. The only $12 an hour jobs are those taken by the undocumented illegal workers who toil in the polluted iron triangle every day.

[BiggieSmalls]

Who would want to live on the toxic land that has been contaminated by all the auto shops in the area?

Part of the project is to remediate the 70 years of pollution before constructing the housing, hotels, convention centers, retail and commercial space.

[Yankees2k6]

Looknig at Willets Point makes me think of the poor communities of africa, they need redevelopment!

[BiggieSmalls]

Just for perspective.

there are over three times as many uniformed NYC police officers as Federal Bureau of Investigations agents.


There are over three times as Many NYC police officers as LA PD officers.

[SilentKiller]

The jobs created would be over 20,00 construction jobs and over 5,000 permanent jobs. The only $12 an hour jobs are those taken by the undocumented illegal workers who toil in the polluted iron triangle every day.

Those construction jobs don't last forever and which one of those 5000 jobs you're talking about is paying more than $12 a hour? $12 a hour was being conservative by the way.

[SilentKiller]

Part of the project is to remediate the 70 years of pollution before constructing the housing, hotels, convention centers, retail and commercial space.

If you think 70 years of toxic waste is going to be cleaned in up as short as 10 years you must be some kind of dreamer.

[NYMets523]

Those construction jobs don't last forever and which one of those 5000 jobs you're talking about is paying more than $12 a hour? $12 a hour was being conservative by the way.

So because they aren't permanent it's pointless?

[metsforever7515]

You guys can argue this all you want but sooner or later your going to have to face the facts. The Iron Triangle is a scene out of a foreign slum, and is going to be demolished and a complex is going to be put up in its place.

[SilentKiller]

So because they aren't permanent it's pointless?

Temporary jobs are not as important as permanent jobs and there are a bunch of people in the Willets Point who have permanent jobs and are making a living in Willets Point. I'm sure the Willets Point people are seeing what's happening in Downtown Brooklyn and are ready for a fight with the knowledge that they have a chance to win.

[NYMets523]

Temporary jobs are not as important as permanent jobs and there are a bunch of people in the Willets Point who have permanent jobs and are making a living in Willets Point.

So the 3000 jobs currently there are worth more than the 5000 jobs from the construction plus the 3000 new jobs that will be created after the redevelopment?

I'm sure the Willets Point people are seeing what's happening in Downtown Brooklyn and are ready for a fight with the knowledge that they have a chance to win.
Downtown Brooklyn didn't have a stadium to compete against.

[BiggieSmalls]

the job creation numbers are 20,000 construction jobs over the 10 years of the development and 5,000 full time jobs including hotel union jobs and teaching jobs.

This compares to the 1200 jobs in Willets where over 80% (WPIRA number) are undocumented illegal residents who dont speak ANY english.

$12/an hour was pulled out of thin air with no supporting information

[BiggieSmalls]

I'm sure the Willets Point people are seeing what's happening in Downtown Brooklyn and are ready for a fight with the knowledge that they have a chance to win.


Downtown Brooklyn? You mean Atlantic Yards? The judge in that case just dismissed the Develop Dont Destroy Brooklyn petition to vacate the environmental study and is widely believed to soon (within the next 12 weeks) rule against the DDDB eminent domain petition.

Ratner has said he will break ground on the stadium this year for completion in 2011./ He has already demolished most of the structures in the AY development district.

How is that a chance to win?

[metsforever7515]

Found 2 more pictures of what it's going to look like:

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh82/fightinitalian21/citiwillets.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh82/fightinitalian21/redec.jpg

[Fudbutter]

I know that a lot of you folks really want to see the Iron Triangle redeveloped. As I’ve seen people say, it does look like Mumbai a bit. In fact of the 30 or so MLB parks I’ve been to, it might be the ugliest area around any park I’ve seen.

The sad truth is that the project of which you speak is doomed to failure. There’s a reason that these business are there to begin with. It’s backed into a triangle (duh) in the butt end of the borough, the least inhabitable area in all of Queens within the direct approach of one of the busiest airports in the country. The type of businesses that they are would require years of expensive remediation, very very expensive remediation, to the point that the recovery of the costs to do so may not happen in your lifetime. You assume these businesses will move elsewhere. Where? Do you want them in your neighborhood?

For approx 80 or so dates, the area is flooded by ballpark goers. Most people show up just before the game and leave either before the game is over or immediately after. Any restaurant’s success is measured by covers (the number of meals served). The places would be empty the rest of the time, which spells death for eateries. Hotels? There is already enough in the area. The only purpose they serve is for early morning flyers. Now there will be much less business flying, permanently. There will be less conventions, permanently. Would you invest in such businesses?

Housing? Have you seen the neighborhood in any direction? Who do you think will move in there? People from the Upper East Side? Either you build housing for incoming immigrants or you’ll have a see though building. Death for real estate. This does not forebode well for any retail business opening nearby either.

Someone here keeps talking about our shrinking public services; police, teachers, etc. Of course we have more than any US City. We are bigger than anyone else. Still, we do not have enough and the ones we do have do not have enough support. If you have any hope that this city will survive as an economic force, these areas need to be addressed now, not some special interest for a purpose doomed to fail. Add in the fact that our infrastructure (mass transport, bridges, highways, etc) is crumbling beyond hope of repair, you have an irresponsible act to use $1 of public funds on the project.

Conclusion? “Cleaning up” the Iron Triangle is a poor use of public funds and certainly a huge mistake by any investor or financier of any part of this project. I wish it wasn’t so, but it is the stone cold truth. I’m afraid that this area will be a huge embarrassment for as long as CF stands.

[BiggieSmalls]

The sad truth is that the project of which you speak is doomed to failure. There’s a reason that these business are there to begin with. It’s backed into a triangle (duh) in the butt end of the borough, the least inhabitable area in all of Queens within the direct approach of one of the busiest airports in the country.

No. It is situated between two dof the most diverse, fastest growing sections of Queens (Corona and Flushing) and right next to the largest park in the City and public transportation. As far as its proximity to the airport. Howard Beach Queens is a clean, community directly in the flight path of a larger airport and it has thrived.



The type of businesses that they are would require years of expensive remediation, very very expensive remediation, to the point that the recovery of the costs to do so may not happen in your lifetime. You assume these businesses will move elsewhere. Where? Do you want them in your neighborhood?

They could cap the area very easily. It is done in areas many times larger than the 60 some acres we are talking about



For approx 80 or so dates, the area is flooded by ballpark goers. Most people show up just before the game and leave either before the game is over or immediately after. Any restaurant’s success is measured by covers (the number of meals served).
The places would be empty the rest of the time, which spells death for eateries. Hotels? There is already enough in the area. The only purpose they serve is for early morning flyers. Now there will be much less business flying, permanently.

Again. Right next to a thriving ethnically diverse area of Flushing and conveniently near a major airport and the largest park in the city. Hotels? You mean the Holiday Inn? The new Hotel could serve the new convention center for regional events.

There will be less conventions, permanently. Would you invest in such businesses?


What evidence do you have that conventions and air travel is in permanent decline?



Housing? Have you seen the neighborhood in any direction? Who do you think will move in there? People from the Upper East Side? Either you build housing for incoming immigrants or you’ll have a see though building. Death for real estate. This does not forebode well for any retail business opening nearby either.

we are talking about 40% affordable. And many many immigrant families coming from over all over the world would love to live in an area such as this. The asian population in Corona and Flushing is exploding. There is a structural housing shortage in NYC and we will need substantial housing stock over the next few decades. Again, 40% affordable is proposed. And this is REAL affordable housing.


Someone here keeps talking about our shrinking public services; police, teachers, etc. Of course we have more than any US City. We are bigger than anyone else. Still, we do not have enough and the ones we do have do not have enough support.
Three times as many as Los Angeles? A City with 5 times the land mass and half the residents? Three times as many as we have FBI Agents in the whole U.S.? How many police is enough?


If you have any hope that this city will survive as an economic force, these areas need to be addressed now, not some special interest for a purpose doomed to fail. Add in the fact that our infrastructure (mass transport, bridges, highways, etc) is crumbling beyond hope of repair, you have an irresponsible act to use $1 of public funds on the project.

this IS a small investment for a HUGE long term return in terms of housing, environmental cleanup, jobs, lifestyle and taxe revenue. It is precisely the type of long term project the NYC government should be taking on and supporting..


Conclusion? “Cleaning up” the Iron Triangle is a poor use of public funds and certainly a huge mistake by any investor or financier of any part of this project. I wish it wasn’t so, but it is the stone cold truth. I’m afraid that this area will be a huge embarrassment for as long as CF stands.

Other larger, more environmentally screwed up areas have been cleaned up and developed into revenue generating beautiful areas. This is not rocket science. All it takes is the political willpower to focus on it and make it happen.. And that is what Bloomberg has done here.

Within a few years the iron triangle will be no more and it will be a happy happy day for all new yorkers that a blight such as this has been eradicated from the greatest country in the world. That a place like the Iron Triangle exists has been a pox on our city and country for too long.

[Mongoose]

Within a few years the iron triangle will be no more and it will be a happy happy day for all new yorkers that a blight such as this has been eradicated from the greatest country in the world. That a place like the Iron Triangle exists has been a pox on our city and country for too long.

What a joke: you're talking about a productive, blue collar area that generates jobs and tax revenue like it's a cross between a Charles Dickens slum and a brothel. Shame on you.

That big time hustlers and billionaires continue to generate big boondoggles, pocket all the profits, and stick the public with the bill is the real pox on our city and country.

You need look no further than our deficits, both municipal and national, for proof.

[MyNameIsMURRAY]

Ok guys, time for me to jump right into the fray:

First, can we respectfully disagree with Mongoose? (he/she) obviously is concerned with the back room dealings between NYC politicians and the billionaire developers who love making a buck at the taxpayers expense.

To talk about Willets point you have to start with Citi Field. For those of you who have been following the CF thread you may know I have mixed feelings about the place. The Wilpons have given us a marvelous new home for our favorite obsession. The place is gorgeous- a true architectural achievement with amazing attention to detail. Everywhere you look there is evidence of the Wilpons deep personal involvement in the design. From the outfield restaurant to the meeting areas near the rotunda it is clear CF has all the amenities a sports/entertainment business in NYC could need. I have to admit I am impressed. :clapping

Ok, but Citi truly is the anti-Shea. Gone is the democratic egalitarianism of the bowl. Gone are the indistinct ramps where people of all levels would funnel out together after the game (win or lose it was always a fun time walking down those ramps). And most importantly gone are most of the cheap seats. :ughh

Say what you want about the aesthetics of the two buildings but the different styles in architecture say everything about the two times. Our priorities as a society have changed so entirely from the years when Shea was planned and constructed.

Of course there is tremendous irony in the opening of Citi Field. For starters the name, which boldly displays the logo of the largest bank in the world- a bank that has become so disgustingly large that we have been told is "too big to fail". Citi has become a global icon for all that is wrong with the world's financial system: a massive problem that has everything to do with the scale between the individual and the institutions that control money. :mad: I know people think we are in some small recession here, but sorry. We you are seeing is the breaking down of a system that has become both amoral and unsustainable. I am not sure the Wilpons from their vantage point (you know, with all their Bernie dealings) are able to see all this.

I know guys but this thread has opened this can o' worms... :D

Citi Field, which does have some public financing, is hardly the worst example of the problems associated with public/private development in NYC. The Mets had a clear idea of how CF should look based on their needs as a MLB franchise. The Atlantic Yards by contrast shows the dangers of the City entering into more open-ended agreements with private developers. My beloved Nets, who I desperately want to move to Brooklyn, may never move because their owner is engaged in a deadlock with a community group. Both sides are fighting to a draw because they cannot come to any compromise on the scale of the project. The plans have already been altered breaking the original agreement that lead the city to claim eminent domain. With the change in plans there is no longer any guarantee that any of the negotiated public benefits such as affordable housing will ever be built. This is despite large public subsidies. Without oversight the Atlantic Yards will likely become an engine for turning public dollars into private profit for Forest City Ratner- all while displacing poorer communities. This is not economic growth, it is economic stratification.

So yes, Willets Point needs to be bulldozed and the area desperately needs the environmental cleanup. :hissyfit: The workers there need to be retrained, taught english and naturalized so they are not just displaced. Responsible development needs to take place so that Flushing becomes a New York destination. But as US citizens in a time of crises it is our duty to not just get behind another scheme to make another billionaire richer. Especially for a project that DOES NOT YET HAVE AN ACTUAL PLAN. Don't be fooled by that artist rendering the city only has a vague and changing idea of what will be built at Willets Point.

Wow that was long. Ok no more, for now I will be quiet. :silent: What do you guys think?

[MyNameIsMURRAY]

That a place like the Iron Triangle exists has been a pox on our city and country for too long.

I agree with some of your points but that goes too far. There are some decent people and some not-so-decent people who rely on the Iron Triangle to survive. I think if we can't show sensitivity to the people whose lives this will actually effect then we should just end the conversation now. Obviously the solution lies somewhere between just bulldoze the damn place and keep it as is. Let's leave the hyperbole for another forum...

[BiggieSmalls]

OVer 50% of the land mass in the Iron Triangle has been purchased from the existing land owners.

Major businesses int he IT are in process of being relocated to larger, cleaner locations in College Point.

The City is in process of relocating the more than 200 auto body shops

Workers are receiving free job and basic english lessons as a result of this project.

No one is being thrown aside and plowed under by bull dozers. That is just not happening.

Like the slums of third world countries PICTURES of the Iron Triangle have been used in Communist School text books to teach young students that some U.S. citizens live and work in filthy, slum conditions in Free lands.

[JerseeJerry55]

You made a big assumption that Sterling Equities is the developer of the Willets Point area. That is very unlikely and probably completely incorrect.

So you are talking about retail space? What? The team store? a few locations in the Admin building? really?? that is an enormous amount of added revenue?

Sure The Mets want the place to be a mixed use entertainment/retail/hotel complex but I think the benefits of building this are largely asthetic for the Mets.

Who wants that Hot Mess less than 30 feet from your front door? I would think they would rather have a decent neighborhood to walk outside the Admin offices on a cold January night than have to have an armed escort to get to your car.

Again, the benefit to ALL new yorkers, in terms of entertainment/hotel/convention and retail .. not to mention the added housing stock far out weighs moving 200 or so tenant businesses to a real industrial park -- like Steinway or College Point.

Additionally wouldn't there be added revenue if restaurants, hotels, etc that would also cater to the business travelers flying in and out of LaGuardia 365.25 days a year. The last time I was at Shea the chop shops across the street weren't serving meals, or drinks to those travelers. If they can build up the area, and make it a viable means of income, and reduce the chance of crime, etc. isn't that a good thing?

[Fudbutter]

This argument has turned into a Tastes Great vs Less Filling silliness. Chances are that the answer lies somewhere in the middle 62%, it usually does.

Instead, let's take this step by step to examine the viability of the project all the way through to the end. Follow the money so to speak.

First step is to remove the establishments currently occupying the location. we'll worry about environmental remediation, construction, finance, market sustainability afterwards.

We need to determine the gross costs, where to get the money and who provides it (and if applicable terms of repayment if financed) to:

1. Buy the land (remember that you will need to pay more than whatever comps there are now)
2. Compensate the businesses that will be compromised

Anyone have an educated guess on these to items and a breakdown of the components of each?

[JerseeJerry55]

OVer 50% of the land mass in the Iron Triangle has been purchased from the existing land owners.

Major businesses int he IT are in process of being relocated to larger, cleaner locations in College Point.

The City is in process of relocating the more than 200 auto body shops

Workers are receiving free job and basic english lessons as a result of this project.

No one is being thrown aside and plowed under by bull dozers. That is just not happening.

Like the slums of third world countries PICTURES of the Iron Triangle have been used in Communist School text books to teach young students that some U.S. citizens live and work in filthy, slum conditions in Free lands.

If this is indeed the case wouldn't it be considered a GOOD thing? We have to remember that this is not 1964 anymore. The area is not only run down, and in very poor condition, but needs a facelift of massive proportions. When this whole concept is finalized and up and running it will breathe new life into an otherwise run of the mill dead area. Remember the idea is not to draw from a 10 block radius, it is to draw from a 50 to 100 mile radius, or more. The NJ Devils (as an example) within the last 2 seasons built a brand new facility in Newark, which as far as I am concerned is in an area that is substantially worse in a lot of ways that Flushing NY is. This facility which I've been to twice this season has really pumped up the Newark area, and made it viable again. Lets remember one more thing there is a tennis event here every year in August, and September called the US Open. You don't think those folks that visit the event, wouldn't also want to venture over to the new facility near Citi Field as well?

[JerseeJerry55]

This argument has turned into a Tastes Great vs Less Filling silliness. Chances are that the answer lies somewhere in the middle 62%, it usually does.

Instead, let's take this step by step to examine the viability of the project all the way through to the end. Follow the money so to speak.

First step is to remove the establishments currently occupying the location. we'll worry about environmental remediation, construction, finance, market sustainability afterwards.

We need to determine the gross costs, where to get the money and who provides it (and if applicable terms of repayment if financed) to:

1. Buy the land (remember that you will need to pay more than whatever comps there are now)
2. Compensate the businesses that will be compromised

Anyone have an educated guess on these to items and a breakdown of the components of each?

Chances are it probably (the money) won't come from Freddie, and Jeff. Ever since there escapades with Bernie Madoff (who I like to refer to as "The Ponz") I don't think they'll be investing in anything other than players.

[BiggieSmalls]

We need to determine the gross costs, where to get the money and who provides it (and if applicable terms of repayment if financed) to:

1. Buy the land (remember that you will need to pay more than whatever comps there are now)
2. Compensate the businesses that will be compromised



The City has allocated 400 million in the budget to purchase the land they do not own and relocate the businesses..

When you include the 13 some acres of Streets and the 11 acres owned by the MTA we are really talking about 35 or so acres of property . 12 acres of that is occupoed by the "big three" (Fodera foods, Tully Construction and House of Spices). These three are at the far easter edge of the district and, under their agreement, will stay until the phase two and sell directly to the ultimate developer.

Phase one, the part Mets fans should really care about, is 126th Street to 127th Street and is the western most portion which includes most of the "chop shops" and the most heavily polluted areas.

The City has already negotiated $3 million to relocate the businesses so there is PLENTY of Funds to finance the purchase of the remaining properties (less than half the existing triangle) and recoup the dollars from the developer.

[Mongoose]

Let's examine your claims:

First off your continued contention that this is a "3 billion dollar boon doggle" of public dollars is a mischarecterization

The development will not be done ont he City's dime. It will be done by private developers.

Ill say again, the amount of dollars committed by the City is 400 million dollars. Most of which will be recouped in the sale of the land tot he developer.

Many developments have taken place on landfil and on property that otherwise did not have any infrastructure. This has been going on for decades. There is nothing different with the property at Willets Point. It is an historic ash and garbage dump that has been mistreated and neglected for 50 years.

The 60 acres of land land at Willets Point is immediately adjacent to the largest park in the City and a brand new sports complex. It is sandwiched between two of the fastest growing areas of this city. It lies at the crux of three major highway routes and near two major international airports.

If is an ideal parcel of land to develop into something more useful than what it is now. Is it the only parcel in the city that can be developed? No. Hudson Yards, Atlantic Yards and Sunny side Yards are three parcels that area also ripe for re development.

It is the role of government to recognize that long term investment is needed to create housing and jobs and lifestyle centers that can sustain and build this economy for the next 25 years.

Looking at the history, Willets Point is an awful location for this type of development scheme. 50 years ago Robert Moses planned on shifting much of NYC's population to Long Island and saw Flushing Meadows as the Central Park of the future. It didn't work out this way. The very mobility the automobile allowed meant that suburbanites might just as well head into Manhattan for fun and shopping as go to Flushing.

Why would anyone outside the immediate Flushing area want to make some big artificial development at Willets Point a 365 day a year destination when it's just 20 more minutes to Manhattan? The whole idea defies logic. And remember: the landfill, toxic cleanup, sewers that need to be built from scratch, etc. guarantee that any project at Willets Point will cost a fortune before ground is even broken for the first building; more than any comparable site would cost to develop.

By the way, you're wrong. Read the constitution...

It's not government's role to pump money into projects for private developers.

How will there be more teachers, olice and fire jobs when this is complete?

This is a ten year project to complete. At that time based on the population growth expected in the city three will certainly be a higher total budget and more city services on an absolute basis than there are today.

To focus on a one or maybe two year blip in the economy and say we should redirect all long term investments to further fund services that could cut waste fraud and abuse and make up any small differences in absolute dollar cuts is short term thinking and not providing for long term planning.

At least you have the honesty to admit you were being dishonest when you implied this project would somehow increase the policemen firemen and teachers employed by the City.

As far as focusing on a one or two year "blip" in the economy... We are where we are now, which is a place where the City can't afford to maintain essential services needed for day to day survival.

Workers that save lives, maintain order and teach the next generation are being laid off.

Budgeting hundreds of millions of dollars for this project now is crazy.

[BiggieSmalls]

Let's examine your claims:
Why would anyone outside the immediate Flushing area want to make some big artificial development at Willets Point a 365 day a year destination when it's just 20 more minutes to Manhattan? The whole idea defies logic. And remember: the landfill, toxic cleanup, sewers that need to be built from scratch, etc. guarantee that any project at Willets Point will cost a fortune before ground is even broken for the first building; more than any comparable site would cost to develop.


The thought the the whole City revolves around Manhattan has to be broken.. Areas in the outter boroughs have to be built up and receive investments in order to spread the wealth around so that EVERYONE isnt making Manhattan the "destination". That is just suicide. Manhattan will have every last dollar of tourist, convention and entertainment dollar while the outer boroughs will be waste lands with an economic sucking sound. Not healthy for the long term. And that is why the City gov't is pumping investment dollars into large scale developments like WP in the outer boroughs.



At least you have the honesty to admit you were being dishonest when you implied this project would somehow increase the policemen firemen and teachers employed by the City.


Go back and read my comment. Not what I said. I said that there will be more jobs police, fire and teaching jobs when the project is complete. As as I;'ve said before, the city spends an exorbitant amount on City services and workers as is.


As far as focusing on a one or two year "blip" in the economy... We are where we are now, which is a place where the City can't afford to maintain essential services needed for day to day survival.

To read this quote you'd think NYC was a vast lawless badlands reminiscent of Mad Max. The amount of dollars cut from the short term budgets will easiloy be made up , and more, should more dollars be in the city's coffers in the future. The best way to get more dollars is to expand the tax base with projects such as Willets Point. Unless you are willing to fork over more tax dollars on an individual level.

Could the Dept of Education, Fire and Police Dept better allocate their resources to reduce waste, fraud, abuse and middle management in order to retain more teachers, police and firemen? Of course. We spend more on these services than ANY other City, State and in some cases COUNTRIES.

There is no need to cut off long term investments because bloated bureaucracies cant better manage their vast resources and get more rubber to the road.

As was said before, this project is happening. There is really no sense in debating whether it is going to happen or the merits of it happening. EDC and the Mayor's office are committed to the continued investment in this and other long term projects. A good thing.

[MyNameIsMURRAY]

As was said before, this project is happening. There is really no sense in debating whether it is going to happen or the merits of it happening. EDC and the Mayor's office are committed to the continued investment in this and other long term projects. A good thing.

Umm, actually that is the topic of this thread so just relax a little bit smalls.

To say that the NYC has sufficient funds is just wrong: the schools are falling apart, over crowded, and good teachers (many of whom I am close personal friends with) aren't paid nearly enough to keep them long at their jobs.

Of course the money allocated to WP and and the rest of the NYC budget are different topics. It's not like that money is going to be spent on education anyway.

[MyNameIsMURRAY]

Willets Point business relocation program hits speed bump:

CB 7 rips EDC, threatens veto of Willets Point biz moves
Posted on March 25, 2009 by Stephen Stirling

http://www.yournabe.com/content/articles/2008/11/28/whitestone_times/news/whitestone_times_newsbswaewc11262008.jpg

The College Point Corporate Park Task Force is demanding the city set aside the abandoned Flushing Airport site for light recreation and parks uses.
Community Board 7 and College Point leaders threw down a gauntlet before the city Monday night.
At a meeting of the College Point Corporate Park Task Force, CB 7 Chairman Gene Kelty told city Economic Development Corp. officials flatly that the board will not approve any plans to move five Willets Point businesses to the College Point Corporate Park unless the abandoned Flushing Airport site is set aside for parks or soft recreation.
“With the EDC, it’s always talking with nothing coming out and I’m tired of that,” Kelty said in an interview Tuesday. “If we’re going to relocate these guys, then what are you going to do to help out the community?”
The development represents an about face for the task force and could set the stage for a very public fight over the issue.
The city is hoping to relocate five industrial businesses from Willets Point, where a massive redevelopment plan was approved in November, to the 550-acre College Point Corporate Park. The task force, which oversees development at the Corporate Park, heard presentations from each of the businesses — Feinstein Ironworks, Flushing Towing, Met Metals, T. Mina Supply Co. and Sambucci Bros. Auto Salvage — on their plans to relocate at the board’s Monday meeting.
Task Force Chairman and CB 7 Vice Chairman Chuck Apelian said the presentations went well, but the tone of the meeting quickly turned sour afterward.
“We’re taking on these businesses when the community was promised years ago that we wouldn’t have to take on these types of businesses,” Apelian said. “We just said we’re not going to do it unless you give us something. I think they were shocked to their shoes.”
Apelian tabled the discussion and set another meeting for April 2. Though it once served the majority of the air traffic in the city, Flushing Airport has remained vacant since it shut down in 1984. Historic Districts Council Executive Director Paul Graziano and marine biologist James Cervino are hoping to find a developer who could put between $50 million and $75 million toward a recreation facility that could include baseball fields, a driving range, an education center and nature trails all designed within an environmentally sustainable framework.
Reached for comment, the EDC issued a statement Tuesday downplaying the meeting’s fireworks.
“Last night, the board expressed support for the important businesses seeking to bring jobs and economic activity to College Point. We look forward to working with the community board to ensure outstanding questions are addressed and we can move forward with their approval,” the statement said.
But Kelty said if the EDC wants his board to approve its plans, it better get to work.
“They don’t have much of a window, but they better go talk to [Deputy Mayor Robert] Lieber and they better go talk to the mayor and tell them that they need to get something done,” he said. “I’ll screw them to the wall as much as possible.”
The snag in the process comes after members of the task force, which is comprised of College Point civic leader and Community board members, had viewed the proposal to move the businesses with a degree of optimism.
Both Apelian and Kelty said the dispute had less to do with the Willets Point businesses themselves than it did with a pattern of the city sidestepping community interests on the path to development.
“We got the marine transfer station. We said fine. We got the police training academy that’s going up on College Point Boulevard. We didn’t like that too much but we said O.K.,” Kelty said. “Last night was just another piece of icing on the cake. They want these five businesses to come into the area. They’re not the best businesses, its not something that’s really going to help the Corporate Park. So if we’re going to relocate these guys, then what’s the city going to do to help out the community?
“This community, they’ve taken their beatings, its time the city caught up.”

[Curly SB]

Taking a page from Boston and the area surrounding Fenway. The whole area is an economic generator. On game day merchants support the stadium on all sides. They close the streets and sell food, beer and souvenirs. Plus there are several retail stores, restaurants and bars in the area. Good places to meet up before the game and fall into after the game. One thing about (other than a million others) about Boston is that parking sucks in the area, Willets Point has a reasonable amount of parking already. The redevelopment of the Iron Triangle could create this type of environment. Redevelopment zones usually invite outside investment through tax credits.

[MyNameIsMURRAY]

Willets Point United Against Eminent Domain Abuse press release:


WILLETS POINT UNITED TAKING MATTERS
INTO THEIR OWN HANDS
SPONSORING CLEANUP ON FRIDAY, MARCH 27th AT NOON
(March 25, 2009) Willets Point United Against Eminent Domain Abuse is organizing a cleanup of garbage dumped along the streets of Willets Point, Queens, beginning this Friday, March 27th at 12 noon. The trucks will start in front of Crown Container, 126-46 34th Avenue.
“The City of New York has refused to provide us with sanitation services for decades, despite the fact that each business here pays tens of thousands of dollars in taxes annually,” said Jerry Antonacci, President of Willets Point United.
“It’s a shame that we have to take matters into our own hands because of neglect by the City,” said Jake Bono, Spokesperson for Willets Point United. “We have been calling in dumping complaints for years, but the Department of Sanitation refuses to respond and clean up the mess.”
The property owners, business owners and workers of Willets Point will collect and haul the garbage.
Besides lack of sanitation, Willets Point does not have adequate sewers and there are hundreds of potholes that the City’s Department of Transportation refuses to repair. These conditions have caused the streets to become an eyesore, have made it difficult for the businesses to operate and have endangered people’s lives and property.
On November 13, 2008, the City Council approved a plan that would remove existing businesses from Willets Point and redevelop the 64-acre industrial site into a convention center, hotels, shops and housing to be built and owned by a private developer. The City has announced that it will use eminent domain to achieve possession, if necessary, and then turn the property over to the developer, who is yet to be chosen. Willets Point United Against Eminent Domain Abuse represents more than two dozen property owners who are fighting the City’s plan to acquire their property.

Obviously not everyone wants this project to happen.

[BiggieSmalls]

of course the few resident businesses that are left dont want the development to happen.

But they are far from losers in this project. They will be compensated for their land and if they wish move to a new, clean location.

If Mongoose and you want to debate about teachers and firemen head counts go right ahead. I simply contend that these bureaucracies receive PLENTY of money on an absolute basis. That they have the efficiency and middle management of a communist bureau is the real problem.

Funds allocated to long term development projects and infrastructure should not be diverted from these economic engines of growth.

Since this board is named on "baseball fever" I think it is veering off into off topic when it becomes a forum for political rantings.

[SilentKiller]

the job creation numbers are 20,000 construction jobs over the 10 years of the development and 5,000 full time jobs including hotel union jobs and teaching jobs.

This compares to the 1200 jobs in Willets where over 80% (WPIRA number) are undocumented illegal residents who dont speak ANY english.

$12/an hour was pulled out of thin air with no supporting information

I threw out $12 a hour as a conservative figure. Most of these "great" jobs you're talking about you'd be lucky to get $10 a hour from them, and I say this because I've worked in those jobs. Have you?

[Mongoose]

As was said before, this project is happening. There is really no sense in debating whether it is going to happen or the merits of it happening. EDC and the Mayor's office are committed to the continued investment in this and other long term projects. A good thing.

It's not a good thing, and I'd say it's also far from a sure thing.

If it was, you wouldn't be here trying so hard to convince everyone that this waste of hundreds of millions of public dollars is such a blessing.

[MyNameIsMURRAY]

You know this is baseball fever and the topics range just beyond the game itself. There is an entire category just on stadiums, their construction, experience and how the function as a business. A thread about a major development that directly effects the NY Mets and their ballpark experience will inevitably become political. Sorry, but "America's game" has changed because of these kinds of mega development projects and it is a legitimate issue to discuss on BBF. Of course the fact that any public money is involved draws the debate deeper into the political realm.

Biggie, or BS for short, just check the rhetoric at the door. I know this is drifting OT but blaming the crumbling NYC schools on communism just shows a complete lack of understanding and comprehension for the issue's complexity. You cry communism and then blindly say use public funds and committees to build a mega-development that will be privately owned. Sounds like crony communism to me.

Anyway, I actually support the Iron Triangle demolition. I think the situation is unfortunate on both sides but will have to move forward from where it is now. Hopefully we can all talk about the future of this project and what can be done to enhance the whole area.

The Mets need this but more importantly Queens needs it. I just dread that WP could become an extension of the Citi Field culture that seems to tolerate only the wealthy. Class stratification is not what Queens or the game of baseball should be about.

[Fudbutter]

The City has allocated 400 million in the budget to purchase the land they do not own and relocate the businesses..

When you include the 13 some acres of Streets and the 11 acres owned by the MTA we are really talking about 35 or so acres of property . 12 acres of that is occupoed by the "big three" (Fodera foods, Tully Construction and House of Spices). These three are at the far easter edge of the district and, under their agreement, will stay until the phase two and sell directly to the ultimate developer.

Phase one, the part Mets fans should really care about, is 126th Street to 127th Street and is the western most portion which includes most of the "chop shops" and the most heavily polluted areas.

The City has already negotiated $3 million to relocate the businesses so there is PLENTY of Funds to finance the purchase of the remaining properties (less than half the existing triangle) and recoup the dollars from the developer.



OK, good, a start. Before we move on to demolishing the standing infrastructure and environmental remediation ...

Where is the $400MM coming from? ... or more properly the $397MM for land purchase and $3MM for relocation. Does the city then own the land to sell to developers or will it retain ownership?

A side question out of curiosity is; where do you locate the businesses? You know they'll make the same mess wherever you put them.

[metsforever7515]

OK, good, a start. Before we move on to demolishing the standing infrastructure and environmental remediation ...

Where is the $400MM coming from? ... or more properly the $397MM for land purchase and $3MM for relocation. Does the city then own the land to sell to developers or will it retain ownership?

A side question out of curiosity is; where do you locate the businesses? You know they'll make the same mess wherever you put them.

I think some of them are being relocated to College Point.

[Fudbutter]

I think some of them are being relocated to College Point.

What is there now?

[metsforever7515]

What is there now?

Not sure. Aunt of mine lives there and is against this plan. Talk about heated family discussion... :crazy:crazy:crazy

[SilentKiller]

What is there now?

College Point is a Hispanic neighborhood.

[metsforever7515]

College Point is a Hispanic neighborhood.

It's a melting pot really.

[BiggieSmalls]

so they have 400 mil.

say they take 100 mil and put it into the Flushing Airport at College Point. 70 mil for ball fields in Flushing Airport and 30 mil to relocate the auto shops. Nice clean setup off the new Access road they're building.

They are spending another 3 on retraining the workers at Laguardia.

Leaves them a good 300 mil. 297.

there are 62 acres 13 MTA and like another 15 in the east including Fodera, Soni and Tully..exempt for 15 years when they sell back to the developer. then 13 for city streets leaves what? 20 acres. Feinstein and Mina are already

You could clean it up for 100 mil which leaves 200 for the landowners in phase one

you can lease it to the developer and do some kind of deal with the convention center. Shoot maybe the Nets/Islanders Arena?
Right across from Citi Field? With a retail/Commercial court between them ? In 10-15 years when the place is hopping the developer buys the 15 acres from the phase two people (Tully, Fodera, Soni). Maybe they encorporate an international food center focused around Fodera and Soni/?) They build the 5000 units of housing (40% real affordable). In this 10-15 years they are cleaning up the Flushing River .

Auto shops are in Flushing airport fight off the highway completely separated from ball fields. easy on east off.

Happily Ever After.

[Mongoose]

so they have 400 mil.

say they take 100 mil and put it into the Flushing Airport at College Point. 70 mil for ball fields in Flushing Airport and 30 mil to relocate the auto shops. Nice clean setup off the new Access road they're building.

They are spending another 3 on retraining the workers at Laguardia.

Leaves them a good 300 mil. 297.

there are 62 acres 13 MTA and like another 15 in the east including Fodera, Soni and Tully..exempt for 15 years when they sell back to the developer. then 13 for city streets leaves what? 20 acres. Feinstein and Mina are already

You could clean it up for 100 mil which leaves 200 for the landowners in phase one

you can lease it to the developer and do some kind of deal with the convention center. Shoot maybe the Nets/Islanders Arena?
Right across from Citi Field? With a retail/Commercial court between them ? In 10-15 years when the place is hopping the developer buys the 15 acres from the phase two people (Tully, Fodera, Soni). Maybe they encorporate an international food center focused around Fodera and Soni/?) They build the 5000 units of housing (40% real affordable). In this 10-15 years they are cleaning up the Flushing River .

Auto shops are in Flushing airport fight off the highway completely separated from ball fields. easy on east off.

Happily Ever After.

If this is such a great idea, why aren't the prospective developers paying for it themselves?

[BiggieSmalls]

No developer wants to deal with 70 or 80 separate landowners on a plot this small and polluted.

Without the govt putting the deal together it would never happen.

The area was just rezoned in November. I think this scenario is reasonable.

[Mongoose]

No developer wants to deal with 70 or 80 separate landowners on a plot this small and polluted.

Without the govt putting the deal together it would never happen.

The area was just rezoned in November. I think this scenario is reasonable.

Let them put up the money to pay for it. Since this is supposed to be a "private" development project anyway, it will show that the developers are serious and we won't get left holding the bag for hundreds of millions of dollars.

[BiggieSmalls]

Let them put up the money to pay for it. Since this is supposed to be a "private" development project anyway, it will show that the developers are serious and we won't get left holding the bag for hundreds of millions of dollars.


What is wrong with a deal that says the City buys the land, relocates the tenants and cleans it up then leases it back to a developer who builds an Arena?

The Arena developer can also put up a hotel/convention center and retail / commercial component that they would own. The district developer then leases the land for 99 years providing the city with a steady stream of income and a great return on their investment.

You end up with a great new sports/entertainment district, the existing auto chop shops relocated to a clean, convenient location and the phase 2 owners stay for a period building land values before they sell and move on for the housing component?

I just came up with this in the last 24 hours. Shoot a hole in it instead of the tired line that investing in this project diverts funds from city services.

[MyNameIsMURRAY]

What is wrong with a deal that says the City buys the land, relocates the tenants and cleans it up then leases it back to a developer who builds an Arena?

The Arena developer can also put up a hotel/convention center and retail / commercial component that they would own. The district developer then leases the land for 99 years providing the city with a steady stream of income and a great return on their investment.

You end up with a great new sports/entertainment district, the existing auto chop shops relocated to a clean, convenient location and the phase 2 owners stay for a period building land values before they sell and move on for the housing component?

I just came up with this in the last 24 hours. Shoot a hole in it instead of the tired line that investing in this project diverts funds from city services.

See you are throwing around numbers and God knows where they are coming from! You are forgetting the single biggest problem: where does the financing come from? Even in a ridiculously loose lending culture it is difficult to get private financing for these mega-projects. It's why the Mets, Yankees, and Nets have all secured public financing for their projects. The Mets actually structured it in a way that reduced the public burden. The Wilpons should be commended for that. NYS in contrast bled the taxpayers dry as will Atlantic Yards.

It is really difficult for the city to recoup the money it lends out to a private developer because of the often complicated tax schemes. Only years later does it become evident that those taxes never recoup the money and a private developer has made substantial money off the government. So that already high $400M is really an illusion- the cost to the city will be much more substantial.

It can be done but it is not as simple as you claim it to be.


100th post!

[mandrake]

Who would want to live on the toxic land that has been contaminated by all the auto shops in the area? In Brooklyn people who are living in former factory areas around Greenpoint have started to report health problems due to living in the area and I can imagine it would be much much worse in Willets Point.


I know it's a cliche, but there really are two sides (or more) to any argument. Personally, I welcome a BF member like Mongoose who obviously puts a lot of thought and research into his posts. Do I agree with him? Sometimes. But if I only want to read things that I agree with, why am I here? Same of someone like IPO; he may disagree with most folks on the forum, but what the heck is the sense of us all just saying the same thing? You can't 'debate' somebody who always agrees with you, can you?

As for Willets Pt, I want to see that place bulldozed and eliminated ASAP. It is one of the biggest enviromental disasters this side of Love Canal. How can you have industries without sewers? Where do all the toxins go? I am no rocket scientist, but I would think they go right into the ground. So if that is the case, the area needs to be bulldozed, and then left vacant for a while (years?) until the EPA deems it is safe. No way should any body live there 24/7/365 until it is proven safe. But there should be no delay in eliminating the place as they continue to pollute daily.

I do not like to bring too much personal baggage here, but someone brought up Greenpoint and the health problems that are showing up. I grew up there, lived there for 18 years, and along the way have seen so many young people die there of various cancers; many of them females; friends, relatives, even my own 19 yr old sister. Back then, the population really did not know how contaminated the neighborhood was. Now, we do. I would not want to see anyone build any residence in the so called Iron triangle until it is proven to be safe.

So I guess I am in the middle of this argument: I want the chop shop polluters out of there, but I don't want any development until it is 100% safe.

[Fudbutter]

so they have 400 mil.

say they take 100 mil and put it into the Flushing Airport at College Point. 70 mil for ball fields in Flushing Airport and 30 mil to relocate the auto shops. Nice clean setup off the new Access road they're building.

They are spending another 3 on retraining the workers at Laguardia.

Leaves them a good 300 mil. 297.

there are 62 acres 13 MTA and like another 15 in the east including Fodera, Soni and Tully..exempt for 15 years when they sell back to the developer. then 13 for city streets leaves what? 20 acres. Feinstein and Mina are already

You could clean it up for 100 mil which leaves 200 for the landowners in phase one

you can lease it to the developer and do some kind of deal with the convention center. Shoot maybe the Nets/Islanders Arena?
Right across from Citi Field? With a retail/Commercial court between them ? In 10-15 years when the place is hopping the developer buys the 15 acres from the phase two people (Tully, Fodera, Soni). Maybe they encorporate an international food center focused around Fodera and Soni/?) They build the 5000 units of housing (40% real affordable). In this 10-15 years they are cleaning up the Flushing River .

Auto shops are in Flushing airport fight off the highway completely separated from ball fields. easy on east off.

Happily Ever After.



Soooo ...

Jumping ahead, $400MM ends up with the businesses moved and the area cleaned up (is $100MM enough?) and NYC Development Corp owns x number of acres ready to lease to developers for an arena, convention center, housing and restaurants. Is that right?

It would be an excellent location for an arena, as the area is already set up for sporting events amd the like. but there would have to be an agreement with the Nets and Islanders to move there and build it themselves. Dicey, but not impossible.

The convention center is not a good idea. One of many expenses businesses are cutting down on is travel and conventions. It takes a long long time for those rules to be relaxed, if ever. Even then, full justification of the value of the expense is needed. Add the fact that the area is too far from the big attractions of the city. I would not finance such a project.

Housing makes sense, They are building all over the area now aren't they? This will never be a Park Slope regentrification though. It's too far from the city and it was never gentrified to begin with. Expect an extension from Main Street on down. That will not blend well with the shops and restaurants plan.

Restaurants would now have 160 dates or so with the Mets, Nets and Islanders plus concerts. That is not enough to sustain a restaurant or club. I wouldn't invest in one yet

So there are two big questions:

1. Can the city afford this? Where does the $400MM come from? Does the city issue bonds or does it come out of an existing budget allocation?

The city's Independent Budget Office reports: "The city will lose 270,000 jobs during the economic downturn, tax revenues will fall by $2.6 billion this year and another $1.3 billion next year, even if the Mayor's proposed tax increases are adopted. IBO estimates the budget gap for 2010 is now $1.2 billion and $4.8 billion in 2011, $1.6 billion more than the Mayor projected in January."

2. The answer to the city's expense is that it would be repaid in revenues from the new establishments on the property. What if no investor comes forth to build here? Don't you need certain committments before determining the value of the project, especially in this environment? This is too big a project to be built on spec


You guys say that this is a done deal. Do you have any link that shows the plan and budget?


It seems to me that the whole deal is being done for the sole purpose of removing the eyesore next to the ballpark. It does look a third world country where an Amazing Race contestant would need to go find a clue.

I would love to have bars and restaurants to go to before and after games. It would give other choices than Main St and the Pine. The Nets and Islanders right there would also be great. I would go to more hockey games for sure. The whole project would be impressive and would make the city and particualrly Queens look more upscale to visitors from other cities.

I'm curious though, you don't see Mongoose's point about the city's use of the money when so many essential services are being cut? Add the fact that the city will not recover fully from this Depression as much of the commerce lost here will resurface in other cities and overseas.



EDIT:

I skipped over the issue Mandrake just brought up but while we are talking money here, isn't that the most important one?

You have two issues, the pollution of Willets's Point
The polution of wherever you move these businesses


I had once looked into an LBO rollup of a number of large auto recyclers in the Northeast. The envirnomental aspect scared the heck out of us and we ran as fast as we can although it was a great deal otherwise. The EPA gives these guys a flyer because they have no choice, but there is no alternate use for the land because the cleanup cost was so much that it made it impossible to redevelop.


Yeesh, what a mess

[mandrake]

Soooo ...


It would be an excellent location for an arena, as the area is already set up for sporting events amd the like. but there would have to be an agreement with the Nets and Islanders to move there and build it themselves. Dicey, but not impossible.



I think Flushing Meadows would be the best spot for a new Isles/Nets home (or a longshot...Knicks/Rangers). Combined with the new ballpark, and the US Open, it would be a great venue setting. But I think the best site for the arena would be somewhere around the Unisphere, and use the contaminated Iron Triangle area as a parking lot.

It would also be great if the City could somehow restore the 1939-1940 subway extension/connection to the IND station yard in Forset Hills. This line was at ground level along the route of the Van Wyck, and opened up Flushing Meadows for people from LI and other parts of Queens. If Robert Moses could do it for one year (16 months?) back then, why can't we do it now? It's at ground level, so you are just putting down tracks.

[BiggieSmalls]

See you are throwing around numbers and God knows where they are coming from! You are forgetting the single biggest problem: where does the financing come from?


Which number are you questioning? Most are rough estimates.

400 mil is a hard number that is IN THE NYC Budget already. It is fully accounted for to buy out the owners and move them and start the project rolling.

As I've said befor , that is a SMALL percentage of the entire $60 B budget and I feel it is smart to always invest a PORTION of the budget in LONG TERM PROJECTS that will add to growth and netter the lifestyle of citizens. This falls in that budget line.

The acreage numbers are rough estimates.. I didnt pull the exact numbers but they are close.

CB7 asked for 70 mil for ball fields and soft rec in Flushing Airport. The relocation dollars have been published before.

The city getting the ball rolling on this type of long range project is a perfect and appropriate use of city resources. It pays for itself.

We know the Islands are having issues with the "Lighthouse Project" and are contemplating a move. Everyone has heard about the Nets move to Atlantic Yards. A convention center would be a small part of the total project and would slot in nicely as a regional destination. Not talking Las Vegas Convention Center here. Just a useful space. Technically they could convert the area to convention space when not in use.

[BiggieSmalls]

Soooo ...
Jumping ahead, $400MM ends up with the businesses moved and the area cleaned up (is $100MM enough?) and NYC Development Corp owns x number of acres ready to lease to developers for an arena, convention center, housing and restaurants. Is that right?

Yes/
100 Mil to clean up 25 or so acres? The EDC is talking about a soil cap on the area. That is 4 mil a acre to clean up the mess. you would dig it out 6 feet down, cap it and replace with clean fill for that cost. No?


2. The answer to the city's expense is that it would be repaid in revenues from the new establishments on the property. What if no investor comes forth to build here? Don't you need certain committments before determining the value of the project, especially in this environment? This is too big a project to be built on spec

The next step in the Process is an RFP to select a developer. That is happening this year. Despite News reports this recession will not last forever. Ratner could get involved or the Islands owner to build the arena every easily.


You guys say that this is a done deal. Do you have any link that shows the plan and budget?

there is a lot of info on the project at the EDC. Including estimates.

http://www.nycedc.com/Web/AboutUs/OurProjects/CurrentProjects/WilletsPointDevelopmentDistrict.htm

....


I'm curious though, you don't see Mongoose's point about the city's use of the money when so many essential services are being cut? Add the fact that the city will not recover fully from this Depression as much of the commerce lost here will resurface in other cities and overseas.

Answered above

[BiggieSmalls]

I brought this up in another forum.


As you may know the WP workers organized a "clean up day" where 30 or so spent 2 hours cleaning up the IT.

They routinely blame the City's lack of enforcement on illegal dumping (a city wide problem) and lack of after hours police presence for the condition of the area.

My response is that the business owners/land owners should have/could have set up a Business Improvement District to fund REGULAR cleanups and a nightime security presence.

Over 60 other Commercial neighborhoods in NYC use these as a way to show pride in their community and provide a higher level of service than what the City offers.

I'm sure the Mets Management would have participated in and added funding for this BID were it started 5 or 10 or 20 years ago.

thoughts?

[Anthony]

Amen to that. Even a bunch of demolition equipment would look better than what's there now.

It is eminent domain abuse. Pure and simple. I would love the area around Shea to look nicer, but not at the cost of taking land from humble business persons and giving it to well connected developers.

[mandrake]

It is eminent domain abuse. Pure and simple. I would love the area around Shea to look nicer, but not at the cost of taking land from humble business persons and giving it to well connected developers.

These so called humble business persons are openly and willingly polluting the land. They are the EPA's worst nightmare. If I changed my car's oil and poured it in my back yard, the EPA would be all over me ! If a homeowner's heating oil tank leaked into the ground, they would be facing a million dollar clean up. I know someone who bought a house, filled up a 550 gallon oil tank that had a leak in it and the seller did not disclose it, and it became a million dollar lawsuit issue. How many gallons of toxics do you think are in the ground at Willets Point?
So these "humble business persons" must be held accountable for thrashing the place ! :hissyfit:

[Ralf]

It is eminent domain abuse. Pure and simple. I would love the area around Shea to look nicer, but not at the cost of taking land from humble business persons and giving it to well connected developers.

I welcome it. Bring on progress.

If the NY state decided that they needed my land for a new superhighway or bridge to Connecticut that would benefit the state and the general population, I would gladly sell at market rate and take the relocation benefits they were offering. Progress is a good thing. This is why we need a benevolent dictatorship here. Democracy is inherently flawed and ultimately leads to a stagnant society of bickering classes.

The Willets Point project is good for many and not good for a few. Sorry, but those few have to suck it up and bare the burden. NYC would not be the great economic engine it is today if we cow-towed to the few.

[Fudbutter]

One aspect of cleaning up the area that no one seems to take into consideration is that they might finally find Jimmy Hoffa and a number of other fellas that "disappeared"


We were looking at the area from CF last Sunday. In a way it looks like a huge modern art exhibit. Put it in Flushing you have a blight on the land. Take pictures of it and you might get a few walls in MOMA.

[BiggieSmalls]

It looks like a hot mess.

Stacks of auto parts on the roofs of tin shacks rusting away and leaking heavy metals into the soil.

Auto repair shops dumping anti freeze into leaking, undocumented underground tanks

industrial businesses spilling hydraulic fluid and just throwing dirt on it.

auto repair shops stripping and painting cars in the open without proper facilities for collecting the waste water.

the "humble businesses" have been polluting the environment for more than 60 years and it is time that the wild west mentality of the Iron Triangle stop.

The least that we can do is try to clean up the eastern side of 126th street.

Why are there apparently disabled cars parked perpendicular on the city sidewalk on that side of the street? Why are they double and triple parked along 126th street so it is unpassable? Why are there signs and other paraphernalia on the street and sidewalk so citrizens can not pass without fear of tetnis?


I would suggest all Mets fans who visit the area contact 311 (212-NEW- YORK) and report the illegally parked cars along the eastern side of 126th street every day until the police come and remove the cars.

126th Street is generally well maintained. Swept regularly, plowed and paved. Yet tin shacks still exist on the eastern edges. This should not happen.

I hear through the grape vine that phase one of the Willets Point rebuild will focus on this area. A very very good thing. Cant happen soon enough

[BiggieSmalls]

Battle lines have been drawn.

Mets fans are mobilized to clean up the east side of 126th street.

Who wants that hot mess less than 30 feet from our entrance.

Unacceptable.

DoT and NYPD are rolling based on 311 calls. I would encourage all to make calls regarding the illegal parking on the sidewalk. The more that call the faster things get done.

Take back our street!!!

Even if you are against Eminent Domain for the entire site you can not be happy with the lawlessness on the east side of 126th street. This needs to be recified and WILL BE>

Between now and opening day call 311 (212-NEW-YORK) and report the parking situation as an eyewitness. 110th Precinct will send rollers and tow trucks to stop this nonsense.

Step up and protect our new stadium.

[Mongoose]

These so called humble business persons are openly and willingly polluting the land. They are the EPA's worst nightmare. If I changed my car's oil and poured it in my back yard, the EPA would be all over me ! If a homeowner's heating oil tank leaked into the ground, they would be facing a million dollar clean up. I know someone who bought a house, filled up a 550 gallon oil tank that had a leak in it and the seller did not disclose it, and it became a million dollar lawsuit issue. How many gallons of toxics do you think are in the ground at Willets Point?
So these "humble business persons" must be held accountable for thrashing the place ! :hissyfit:

I think there was a lot of industrial dumping, etc. before the EPA came into being and outlawed such things. The area was likely a big job to clean up before there was much environmental policy.

By the way, there's an interesting article about the Ten Cent Beer Night riot in Cleveland in 1974 that gives a rough idea of the time frame in which environmental policy was developed.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=beernight/080604&sportCat=mlb

Any rumination on Cleveland's fortunes in the '70s must include the woeful state of the Cuyahoga River, which ran a winding course through downtown. In 1952, it caught fire for the ninth time. Years and years of absorbing liberal amounts of industrial waste had turned the Cuyahoga into something more than just a waterway. The fetid river burned with Stygian fury, destroying $1.5 million in property. Despite the significance of the incident, it didn't attract much national news coverage. But in 1969, when the Cuyahoga caught fire again, flames reached five stories in height and burned for almost a half-hour. Still, they did little more than scorch a rail bridge, and the damage cost just $50,000 to repair. In Cleveland, this was viewed as improvement. Between '52 and '69, however, the national attitude toward flammable bodies of water had changed.

This time, environmentalists used the city for target practice. National outrage led to the formation of the Environmental Protection Agency in 1970 and the passage of the Clean Water Act of 1977. Cleveland could be considered the chief impetus behind these two important and beneficial achievements, which in the '70s were as close as the city came to a story with a happy ending.

By the way, that riot deserves a thread of its own. Interestingly and not surprisingly it was Billy Martin who turned the thing into a violent confrontation. Prior to his leading the Rangers into the outfield brandishing bats to "save" Jeff Burroughs, it had just been a bunch of drunks streaking across the field and throwing things. Billy Martin turned it into the biggest drunken brawl in baseball history.

If the VC ever elects him, that should be on his plaque in Cooperstown.

[Paul W]

Battle lines have been drawn.

Mets fans are mobilized to clean up the east side of 126th street.

Who wants that hot mess less than 30 feet from our entrance.

Unacceptable.

Take back our street!!!

Step up and protect our new stadium.

you are taking this a bit to personally, it's fred-o & jeffie's new stadium...
what was going on east of 126th st. for 4 1/2 decades didn't bother you as long as you didn't see it - the typical NIMBY attitude. if fred-o dislikes the view out of the club offices he can buy the land, instead of using nyc government to do it for him. those co.'s across the street pay taxes, as industrial and rundown as they are - it's their street too.
btw - nypd parking enforcement doesn't need to be mobilized because u don't like the situation.

get the truth about your tax $$'s/stadiums - http://www.fieldofschemes.com/

[BiggieSmalls]

you are taking this a bit to personally, it's fred-o & jeffie's new stadium...


umm no.. It is the Met's Fans stadium. And you live on the "left coast" so what do you care about NYC stadiums?

The IT has been an eyesore for too long and now Citi Field is less than 30 feet from it. Nothing wrong with mobilizing like minded people to make change. That is called democracy.

Dont they have that on the "left coast"?

[Paul W]

i'm a ny'er through-and-through...
but you gotta relax, the ballpark is built to enrich fred-o, not mets fans.
been following the mets since '65 and seen the club hundreds of times @ shea and on the road, but someone close to me long ago who worked in the baseball business told me - "...if you drop dead tomorrow, the mets will go on...". so i enjoy the games but always remember that it's a business.

[BiggieSmalls]

First off . Who the heck are you to say anyone is taking something too seriously? Especially when you link to a notoriously anti MLB book. Sound slike you have a hidden agenda.

Secondly, there is NOTHING wrong with Nets fans who visit the area having their voices be heard on the issue. Mobilizing citizen support for an issue is the basis of democracy and a great use of the internet.

Surely you cant be against reporting a crime or a violation that takes place every day and leads to rampant harassment of innocent people who just want to get to the ball game?

If you want 126th street cleaned up as a first step lets all call 311 (212-NEW- YORK) and report the illegal parking on the east side of 126th street. It takes 10 minutes, can be done anonymously and will make the area a better, safer place for people to come visit

[Paul W]

my agenda isn't hidden - no tax dollars for ballparks!
let the club owners (who get all naming rights $$$'s, all advertising $$$'s and most of parking & concessions) build their places.
stadiums generate few $40k+ jobs, mostly seasonal low-paying part-time jobs, especially out door northern ones that can only be used partially during the winter. studies show that after the first 2 years few visitors from out-of-town come in to see these places. it's mostly locals who go, so the long-term benefit to midtown restaurants & hotels are negligible.
with the "pilot" schemes, clubs pay very little in taxes to nyc/nys.

btw - nets fans?

i'm a life-long mets fan, but not going to turn a blind eye to what's going on just because it's for "my" team. my ego isn't that big...

it's your tax $$$$'s - http://www.fieldofschemes.com/

[BiggieSmalls]

way to pick a nit and miss the point.

I meant METS Fans obviously. And if you are so oblivious to the business of baseball then why spend a second commenting or reading a book like "field of schemes"

just - as you say - watch the games and realize when you drop dead the mets will go on because it is just a business.

If I as a METS fan who goes to a significant number of games a year want a pleasant area to visit before and after the game and not be threatened why begrudge me the opportunity to mobilize like minded people to support that?

[BiggieSmalls]

And who cares if it is the same 45,000 people that show up to EVERY GAME.

if those 45,000 people want to mobilize to bring about a change to the area then what issue is that of yours? You dont visit Citi.

I dont care how the Wilpons financed the stadium - just as long as it is a comfortable place where I can enjoy a few hours. And if I can spend a few more hours of enjoyment int eh area and add to the economy what if the problem with voicing you opinion on that?

If like minded Mets fans want to see the area cleaned up and made into a iconic baseball neighborhood the first step is to clean up the east side of 126th street. Get the cars off the sidewalk and tow them away of necessary.

Call 311 (212-NEW YORK) and inform the city about this illegal activity. It is your civic duty to report issues such as cars parked perpendicularly on a sidewalk and triple parked on a public sidewalk and on a public street.

It takes 10 minutes and is anonymous and you can follow up on the web.

[Paul W]

voice your opinion, but nyc/nys tax dollars can be spent on more important year-round use projects.
it's the general lack of oversight by the public on how it's money is being spent that has gotten us in the mess we're in now...

[dpcv8]

voice your opinion, but nyc/nys tax dollars can be spent on more important year-round use projects.
it's the general lack of oversight by the public on how it's money is being spent that has gotten us in the mess we're in now...

The Javits center is a joke, and the iron triangle is a great spot to build a year round convention center with all the amenities that go with such a complex. Its right at the corner of major transportation hubs and a stones throw from the airports.

An added bonus will be to replicate at Citi what the Red Sox are able to do with Yawkee way.

[Mongoose]

I hear through the grape vine that phase one of the Willets Point rebuild will focus on this area. A very very good thing. Cant happen soon enough

Speaking of hidden agendas: what "grapevine" did you hear this through anyway?

Most regular citizens that aren't involved in dipping their paws into the public treasury don't have access to any "grapevines" with information on projects like this.

[Cool Papa B.]

Hey guys. I don't know if this was discussed before, but I heard that included in the Willets Point Development will be a Hotel and some residential units (ie co-op and apartment rentals). With the issue of noise pollution coming from the planes landing and taking off in LaGuardia Airport, I can't see anyone wanting to have a co-op or condo in the area. I've been to some games at Shea and the noise from the airplanes are ridiculous. Has anyone involved with the project address this issue?

[BiggieSmalls]

I've been to some games at Shea and the noise from the airplanes are ridiculous. Has anyone involved with the project address this issue?

There is sound proof glass that can be deployed. Areas such as Howard Beach have flourished in the shadows or major airports.

Flushing and Corona do fine in the flight path. This is a non issue.

First goal is to clean up 126th street. Call 311 and we can get the tow trucks rolling to stop the chop shops from parking illegally

[eatabagel]

Honest question, how different would the noise be than in any of the neighborhoods surrounding LGA?

I think many people assume that it's going to be a viable place for business for only 80 nights a year, but with all the congestion in the Flushing-Corona areas, housing in that neighborhood is really needed. Also, when people say it's too far from Manhattan to be a viable pocket-development, they tend to forget that Flushing has become in its own right a destination.

Ask anybody getting onto the 7 train and they'll say it's more of a Chinatown than the one on Canal Street. Flushing has become a 7 days a week, 365 days a year kind of town. The Mets are not the only thing in Flushing, contrary to what several thousand who drive in from Long Island think. I mean this is Baseball Fever and we tend to think that everything revolves around our teams and their stadiums, but for many millions living in Flushing, Flushing is a living, teeming town. (and for that matter and on a related note, the neighborhood around Yankee Stadium is not there at the service of the Yankees-- people actually live and work there, unlike other false ballpark neighborhoods in other cities) That's what's so cool about NY baseball parks. They're not islands, they're part of the city fabric and a Willets Point development will be part of the greater Flushing fabric if people start to live there.

A Willets Point development will be helpful for the Mets, yes, but it will be a whole lot more than that if it does indeed get completed.

[Mongoose]

Hey guys. I don't know if this was discussed before, but I heard that included in the Willets Point Development will be a Hotel and some residential units (ie co-op and apartment rentals). With the issue of noise pollution coming from the planes landing and taking off in LaGuardia Airport, I can't see anyone wanting to have a co-op or condo in the area. I've been to some games at Shea and the noise from the airplanes are ridiculous. Has anyone involved with the project address this issue?

Never mind the noise pollution: the proponents of this lunatic scheme keep telling us that we have to get rid of the industry because it's poisoned the entire area. Well then...

Why the hell are they so eager to build residential units on a toxic dump?

The only business this project will stimulate will be cancer treatment centers.

[Cool Papa B.]

There is sound proof glass that can be deployed. Areas such as Howard Beach have flourished in the shadows or major airports.

Flushing and Corona do fine in the flight path. This is a non issue.

First goal is to clean up 126th street. Call 311 and we can get the tow trucks rolling to stop the chop shops from parking illegally

Are you sure? I mean, there is also sound-proof insulation, but that only goes so far. Willets point is closer to LaGuardia than Howard Beach. I'm not trying to start an arguement, I'm just pointing out something that could be damaging to this development.

[BiggieSmalls]

no problem.. I can debate civilly.

Howard beach is right at the end of the JFK run way.

Ozone Park is as well.

http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&split=0&gl=us&ei=0rzSSYH9Lt2FmQeuidHzBg&t=h&layer=x&g=howard+beach&ll=40.643591,-73.747444&spn=0.035103,0.085144&z=14

At least LGA has the Flushing Bay between the run way and Willets/Corona/Flushing.

The Environmental impact statement speicifies sound proof glass will be installed to mitigate sound issues.

I think most of the housing will be on the western portion of the site. Most of the pollution is on the eastern edge next to Citi Field.

[Mongoose]

no problem.. I can debate civilly.

Howard beach is right at the end of the JFK run way.

Ozone Park is as well.

http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&split=0&gl=us&ei=0rzSSYH9Lt2FmQeuidHzBg&t=h&layer=x&g=howard+beach&ll=40.643591,-73.747444&spn=0.035103,0.085144&z=14

At least LGA has the Flushing Bay between the run way and Willets/Corona/Flushing.

The Environmental impact statement speicifies sound proof glass will be installed to mitigate sound issues.

I think most of the housing will be on the western portion of the site. Most of the pollution is on the eastern edge next to Citi Field.

Would you want to live on the somewhat less polluted side of a toxic dump?

[Cool Papa B.]

no problem.. I can debate civilly.

Howard beach is right at the end of the JFK run way.

Ozone Park is as well.

http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&split=0&gl=us&ei=0rzSSYH9Lt2FmQeuidHzBg&t=h&layer=x&g=howard+beach&ll=40.643591,-73.747444&spn=0.035103,0.085144&z=14

At least LGA has the Flushing Bay between the run way and Willets/Corona/Flushing.

The Environmental impact statement speicifies sound proof glass will be installed to mitigate sound issues.

I think most of the housing will be on the western portion of the site. Most of the pollution is on the eastern edge next to Citi Field.

Thanks for the map, and I see you point. But what that means to me is that the people living in those new co-op's can't open there windows for fresh air. If you do you'll run the risk of hearing the planes go by. I just think shopping malls and movie theaters would make more sense than residential units.

Would you want to live on the somewhat less polluted side of a toxic dump?

I didn't know there was an enviormental issue in that area. Do you have any websites or reports that talk about that in more detail?

[BiggieSmalls]

Would you want to live on the somewhat less polluted side of a toxic dump?

the pollution will obviously be cleaned up before anytning is built.

And you know that.

[AMAYSN 24]

"The junk yards gotta go." Fred Wilpon:clapping

[majorleads]

my agenda isn't hidden - no tax dollars for ballparks!
let the club owners (who get all naming rights $$$'s, all advertising $$$'s and most of parking & concessions) build their places.
stadiums generate few $40k+ jobs, mostly seasonal low-paying part-time jobs, especially out door northern ones that can only be used partially during the winter. studies show that after the first 2 years few visitors from out-of-town come in to see these places. it's mostly locals who go, so the long-term benefit to midtown restaurants & hotels are negligible.
with the "pilot" schemes, clubs pay very little in taxes to nyc/nys.

btw - nets fans?

i'm a life-long mets fan, but not going to turn a blind eye to what's going on just because it's for "my" team. my ego isn't that big...

it's your tax $$$$'s - http://www.fieldofschemes.com/

I can understand your point, but really this isn't about jobs or out of town visitors. This is about entertaining 4 million fans who attend games plus the millions more who watch the Mets on TV. Citi Field enhances the local community as well as NYC and Long Island.

[BiggieSmalls]

the whole area is a historical Garbage and Ashe dump going back over 100 years.

It is Coal ash so there is the issue of Mercury and other heavy metals. Most of the pollution is defective unregistered, undocumented underground storage tanks and old septic systems built on teh owners property.

Soil samples of the streets shows a relatively low level of concentrated pollutants including petroleum, antifreeze and other oil based products.

The thinking is that the land owned by the property owners is heavily polluted from all the illegal dumping related to the industruial businesses, auto repair shops an junk yards that populate the area for the past 70 years. the private land owners have not allowed independent testers on their propoerty but there have been some tests done on land purchased from some people.

Most of the pollutants can be eradicated by removing the top 6 feet of soil, capping it and filling it with clean soil.,

It is not rocket science. This type of work is done all over the country all the time to remediate old industrial areas.

Greenpoint is much much more polluted by comparison. Areas of Long Isalnd City near the water was about the same level and that was cleaned up recently.

[SilentKiller]

Speaking of hidden agendas: what "grapevine" did you hear this through anyway?

Most regular citizens that aren't involved in dipping their paws into the public treasury don't have access to any "grapevines" with information on projects like this.

Fantastic question. I think Biggie either works for the Mets, the Bloomberg administration, or one of those Queens pols.

[Mongoose]

Fantastic question. I think Biggie either works for the Mets, the Bloomberg administration, or one of those Queens pols.

The more you look at this project, the more you realize it's the kind of thing only a paid shill could love:

Pollution mysteries await Willets Point cleanup

By Stephen Stirling
TimesLedger Newspapers
2/28/08

Though the public approval process is yet to begin on the redevelopment of Willets Point, the New York City Economic Development Corporation is making preparations to tackle a complex goulash of contamination that spans across the entire site and runs decades deep.

Conservative estimates from the EDC have put the cost of the remediation, expected to be one of the largest in city history, at more than $50 million with the process taking upward of three years to complete. EDC Vice President Kay Zias, who has been heading up the agency’s plans for the site’s remediation, said it was too early to pinpoint the cost and cleanup length because the city does not know the extent of the contamination that lies underneath the more than 250 businesses that occupy the land.

“Basically remediation depends on what exactly is found where,” Zias said.

The EDC has only been able to test the soil and groundwater on what is now public property, meaning on the streets and underneath both the streets and sidewalks that border the 60-acre swath of developable land in the small conglomeration of businesses.

Thus far, the EDC said it found evidence of petroleum and corrosive metal contamination in the soil and groundwater, which are probably byproducts of the auto-related and manufacturing businesses in the area.

High levels of petroleum and metal contamination in soil have been linked to significant health effects, such as certain kinds of cancer like leukemia. Such contaminants can also have disastrous effects on a local ecosystem, killing bacteria and other small organisms whose absence can have a ripple effect up the food chain.

Zias said the levels of contamination were not “epic,” but would likely be greater on the business sites themselves. The EDC said the lack of infrastructure in the area is expected to play a role in the level of contaminants found. Without sanitary sewers water can collect freely and spread contaminents across the site and many of the businesses have freestanding petroleum and sewage tanks, which can also pose a contamination threat if they leak.

“There is a tank associated with pretty much every tenant or privately held parcel here, and whether it be above ground or underground it’s still a possibility of contamination that has to be explored,” Zias said.

Zias said what will likely be the most complicated and pressing aspect of any remediation to take place will not be what is near the surface but what lies below. She said the site’s history as a filled-in wetland and earlier use as an ash and cinder dump in the early part of the century may mean that potentially combustible gases are lurking below.

“What’s also happening here is beneath everything are ashes and cinders and various fills in a swamp kind of context, which creates methane gases,” Zias said. “Which is a naturally occurring process, but it’s problematic if it travels into contained space like basements, where it can spontaneously combust.”

Zias said that if this is the case, development pursued on the site will almost certainly have to include plans for a ventilation system that allows the gases to disperse in a controlled manner. Such a system would probably include individual ventilation systems on buildings that go up in the area and interceptor trenches - dikes used to allow vapor to be channeled and dissipated - along the sides of streets and buildings.

The EDC has repeatedly said that the entire site will have to be cleaned up as a whole, which some have criticized as a ploy to force the removal of the existing businesses more quickly. Zias said, however, that it makes more practical sense to clean the site as a whole because there is less of a chance of encountering complications, such as flooding recontaminating cleaned portions of the site, down the road.

“There’s just sort of a functional problem there,” Zias said. “The costs there would increase significantly if you have to take that extra effort to do it this way. So it can be done. It’s just a lot more costly.”

Overall, Zias stressed that if the project is approved, the remediation is expected be lengthy and arduous. She said within every aspect of it there lies a myriad of details that have to be covered with a fine-tooth comb, such as where contaminated soil will go, what replaces it and how much regulatory oversight will be needed.

“Every bit of imported material has to be tested as well to make sure that it’s no worse if not significantly better than what’s there right now,” she said. “We have to be very confident in our source, just as we have to be confident in what we’re taking out.”

http://stephenstirling.wordpress.com/2008/04/12/pollution-mysteries-await-willets-point-cleanup/

[mandrake]

Mongoose
This article reflects everything I believe about that slum area. That is why the EPA and Fed Govt need to: 1) wipe that whole place off the map 2)hold everyone that polluted accountable 3) do NOT allow anyone to live or work there until it is 100% certain that there are no risks, and we are talking many years . The best possible use of that land is a parking lot. There are other sections of the Flushing Meadow Park area that are better suited for development. (The area on Roosevelt Avenue near the Arthur Ashe Stadium is one. I am sure there are others too. ) However, the Calcutta/Rio slum area needs to go the way of Love Canal.

[BiggieSmalls]

Nothing here is contradictory to what I said on page 5.

If the area is flattened it would be easier to lift 5 or 6 feet of topsoil off the top and cap and then fill with clean soil.

In my previous proposal on how to spend the 400 mil I allocated 100 mil. Here it says 50 would suffice. And my 100 mil would be for JUST the east side of the site.

I disagree with the 3 year time line. Long Island City didnt take that long.


I would encourage Mets Fans and Citizens who want to start the process of change in the Iron Triangle to call 311 (212-NEW-YORK) and report the illegal parking problem on the west side of 126th street. If we can take back the 126th street sidewalk that would be a first step in cleaning up the area.

It takes 10 minutes and is completely anonymous.

[Voodoo]

I walked down 126th myself on Sunday. My friend and I wondered aloud: how can a business be profitable as a Discount Muffler Shop when it's surrounded by about 250 other Discount Muffler Shops.

[BiggieSmalls]

Voodoo.

were you able to walk on the tin shack side of the sidewalk?

I know the tow trucks were out but there were STILL MANY cars parked on the sidewalk that were clearly associated with the chop shops. Some had no fenders and other parts missing.

Were you harasssed by any workers in the chop shops? This has been a major problem for years. It needs to be fixed now that we are 30 feet from the chop chops.

The best way to take it back it to call 311.

[mandrake]

Voodoo.

were you able to walk on the tin shack side of the sidewalk?

I know the tow trucks were out but there were STILL MANY cars parked on the sidewalk that were clearly associated with the chop shops. Some had no fenders and other parts missing.

Were you harasssed by any workers in the chop shops? This has been a major problem for years. It needs to be fixed now that we are 30 feet from the chop chops.

The best way to take it back it to call 311.

OK, provide some specifics how you have been harassed by workers in the chop shops. This should be interesting.

[Voodoo]

Voodoo.

were you able to walk on the tin shack side of the sidewalk?

I know the tow trucks were out but there were STILL MANY cars parked on the sidewalk that were clearly associated with the chop shops. Some had no fenders and other parts missing.

Were you harasssed by any workers in the chop shops? This has been a major problem for years. It needs to be fixed now that we are 30 feet from the chop chops.

The best way to take it back it to call 311.

No, I stayed on the Mets side of the street, it doesn't really look like an area I want to walk through :laugh

My friend did go directly across to a little deli that I was shocked to see amidst the sea of car part shops though.

[Mongoose]

Mongoose
This article reflects everything I believe about that slum area. That is why the EPA and Fed Govt need to: 1) wipe that whole place off the map 2)hold everyone that polluted accountable 3) do NOT allow anyone to live or work there until it is 100% certain that there are no risks, and we are talking many years . The best possible use of that land is a parking lot. There are other sections of the Flushing Meadow Park area that are better suited for development. (The area on Roosevelt Avenue near the Arthur Ashe Stadium is one. I am sure there are others too. ) However, the Calcutta/Rio slum area needs to go the way of Love Canal.

I don't know... Why spend scores of millions of dollars on the place just to turn it into a parking lot? Especially during a time essential services are being cut and taxes are going up: it's nuts. It's been a contained, productive area for many decades. Nobody said boo about it until Fred Coupon started agitating for more public money. He wasn't happy with nearly a billion dollars for a ballpark; he wanted a custom built neighborhood to go with it as well. The whole thing should be down at the bottom of any list of government priorities - or better yet, not even on the list at all.

By the way, there's over a century of pollution there. All that land is poisoned, and nobody knows how deep the pollution runs or the recepticles are buried - or what's even down there! Anyone who believes the problem can be solved with a few feet of topsoil and a "cap" should be forced to live there and raise a family there. Love Canal was supposed to have a layer of clay that acted as a "cap", and we all know how well that worked out.

[Mongoose]

OK, provide some specifics how you have been harassed by workers in the chop shops. This should be interesting.

I was wondering about that myself. Over many years of walking past that area to Flushing after Mets games I was never bothered once. He was up late last night and is up early this morning trying to muster a Wilpon Zombie Army to harass the small business owners there.

It's funny and sad all at the same time.

[CoreyNYC]

The 5 Towns of LI is an extremely wealthy area with high property values and is located a mile or two away from JFK, right over the takeoff and landing path.

Are you sure? I mean, there is also sound-proof insulation, but that only goes so far. Willets point is closer to LaGuardia than Howard Beach. I'm not trying to start an arguement, I'm just pointing out something that could be damaging to this development.

[mandrake]

I don't know... Why spend scores of millions of dollars on the place just to turn it into a parking lot? Especially during a time essential services are being cut and taxes are going up: it's nuts. It's been a contained, productive area for many decades. Nobody said boo about it until Fred Coupon started agitating for more public money. He wasn't happy with nearly a billion dollars for a ballpark; he wanted a custom built neighborhood to go with it as well. The whole thing should be down at the bottom of any list of government priorities - or better yet, not even on the list at all.

By the way, there's over a century of pollution there. All that land is poisoned, and nobody knows how deep the pollution runs or the recepticles are buried - or what's even down there! Anyone who believes the problem can be solved with a few feet of topsoil and a "cap" should be forced to live there and raise a family there. Love Canal was supposed to have a layer of clay that acted as a "cap", and we all know how well that worked out.

I agree that there are many years of pollution there, but that does not mean that we just keep allowing them to pollute. The Fed Govt, not NYC or even NYS, should come in with that stimulus money they are throwing around, and level that place to the ground. Only then will we see what is actually in that soil; once we see how toxic that place is, then bring in the paving trucks.

This does not affect any service cuts since it is not NYC money.

Nobody should be allowed to build anything there until it is proven to be safe.
BTW, while they are cleaning Willets Point, they should clean up the Greenpoint oil spill, which is larger than the Valdez spill.

And as you probably know, I could not care less about the Coupons!:D

[BiggieSmalls]

OK, provide some specifics how you have been harassed by workers in the chop shops. This should be interesting.
\

Typical Mets Suck.. go back to your side of the street garbage. Women getting cat called. Basic intimidation methods that are unsettling. When you go back at them they get all huffy and try to act all tough. Typically gang bullying tactics.

Mongoose --

What is your point with your comment?

You were hear last night and again this morning too.

Why dont you stick to topic and stop the name calling distractions.

[Jim Vaz]

\

Typical Mets Suck.. go back to your side of the street garbage. Women getting cat called. Basic intimidation methods that are unsettling but not physical.

Mongoose --

What is your point with your comment?

You were hear last night and again this morning too.

Why dont you stick to topic and stop the name calling distractions.

While I have yet to run into any problems with any of the businesses, its definitely a shady area. You always feel like your in a bad area and Everyone in those shops watches you, you always see nice cars rolling in, its been known for years to house illegal stoen car chop shops.

The place is a disaster, and they can cry foul all they want, nobody will be listening. If the place held respectable businnesses, and if at the worst they maintained the area in some even moderate fashion nobody would care. but now you have a near billion dollar ballpark next door, don't look for this disaster to stay for much longer and just be merely overlooked.

[Kentucky Bomber]

the whole area is a historical Garbage and Ashe dump going back over 100 years.

It is Coal ash so there is the issue of Mercury and other heavy metals. Most of the pollution is defective unregistered, undocumented underground storage tanks and old septic systems built on teh owners property.

Soil samples of the streets shows a relatively low level of concentrated pollutants including petroleum, antifreeze and other oil based products.

The thinking is that the land owned by the property owners is heavily polluted from all the illegal dumping related to the industruial businesses, auto repair shops an junk yards that populate the area for the past 70 years. the private land owners have not allowed independent testers on their propoerty but there have been some tests done on land purchased from some people.

Most of the pollutants can be eradicated by removing the top 6 feet of soil, capping it and filling it with clean soil.,

It is not rocket science. This type of work is done all over the country all the time to remediate old industrial areas.

Greenpoint is much much more polluted by comparison. Areas of Long Isalnd City near the water was about the same level and that was cleaned up recently.

On a much smaller scale, Louisville Slugger Field was built on the site of an industrial manufacturing and recycling company. Like the Triangle, decades of raw pollutants went into the ground, and many thought the solution was the same as mentioned above: dig down a few feet and cap it with clean soil. But the further down they went, the worse it got and that project was lengthened by a year cleaning it out. Once you've evicted the chop shops, and I would imagine they'll fight to the death to get compensated far more than they're worth, there could be an ecological disaster awaiting the developers of the Triangle. Even assuming the financial world recovers in a reasonable time, it's going to take a good bit of time to redo the area.

[nymTom]

This was a great idea for a thread and ofcourse it will stir a great debate but i just cant read Mongoose and Silent Killer's posts any longer. Debating is fine and opinions will vary, but they are speaking pure nonsense with NO facts to support there case..

Its pure garble to think this project will only benefit the Wilpons? seriously? Cmon Now.. Also this 10 year or so project will keep many union workers working and some will retire on the project as well and if everything that was proposed was built the jobs created will be 10 fold as to whats there now and yes the businesses will ALL be legal . Not saying all of the Iron triangle is illegal now or even in shambles but seriously, if i owned a clean cut business, i wouldn't want it to be in that mess as is anyways.. And for Mongoose who's motive is only to protect all Teachers, Policemen and Firemen. Really we should only worry about their jobs, the kinda of jobs that get paid decent, have usually great security and get the best pensions and benefits available . Yes thay are all much needed and important jobs but there are plenty of other people losing their jobs at the moment. Not to get into it , but i have 6 retired Police friends all in their early 30's due to injury getting 3/4 pay and benefits for life. i will attest that their injuries are not that serious and we the tax payers are paying their way for life. They beat the system i guess.. So really think outside the box a bit and realize a project like this is way more benficial especially now as the jobs created will keep people working. Just think how many of those Union workers may have been laid off after Citifield was complete. Yes it only gave them two years of work but a project like the redevelopment of Willets point can keep them going for a long time and hopefully soon the country will be in a better state financially but thats for another debate cause with all these Bailouts, which seem to be helping little, who do you think is going to pay all this money back, Yes the Taxpayers, UGH!!!!!

[Mongoose]

Willets Point Accord Gets Complicated

By Eliot Brown

November 13, 2008 | 12:47 p.m

The deal to redevelop Willets Point may not be quite the clean, easy victory for the city as was portrayed yesterday, when officials and members of the City Council announced an agreement.

The Bloomberg administration has agreed to leave in place—at least temporarily—the three largest businesses, Tully Construction, House of Spices and Fodera Foods, a move that would substantially decrease the size of the site to be bid out to a developer.

The deal, brokered primarily between Tully and the city, was done in part to placate Councilman Hiram Monserrate’s concerns, according to people familiar with discussions. We’re still sorting out details, but the businesses, located on the eastern portion of the triangle-shaped district, would stay in place for an unspecified amount of time as remediation and then development begins on the rest of site.

The concession would certainly save money for the city in the short term—it wouldn’t have to buy all of the land—though it would certainly decrease the dollars received from the designated developer, which would place great value on a large, contiguous site.

The agreement seems to contradict statements repeatedly made by the city, which stressed that the district, which it considers highly polluted, needed to be redeveloped in its entirety for environmental reasons. Otherwise, the city previously argued, pollution from some existing sites would seep into the redeveloped land. (There are a large number of automotive repair businesses located on the eastern end of Willets Point, next to these three businesses.)

The deal announced this morning also seems to directly contrast with statements Deputy Mayor Robert Lieber made to reporters yesterday following an afternoon press conference. I asked him whether or not he expected the site would be developed in one large chunk, or if the city would rather do a multi-phased plan where the properties on the east were not initially redeveloped, as studied in the Environmental Impact Statement (the EIS studied a “staged acquisition alternative,” which, more or less, is very similar to the plan announced today). He said he expected the city to proceed with the entire site.

The EIS noted the challenges of the two-phased approach:

“[The alternative approach] could require additional safeguards to ensure that existing hazardous materials contamination on the eastern portion of the District would not migrate to the western portion of the District subsequent to the remediation of the western properties. It could also require a more complex stormwater management plan, since new storm systems put in place prior to 2013 would need to ensure adequate retention and discharge of stormwater in the western portion of the District, and after 2013 would need to be integrated with new stormwater systems put in place in the eastern portion of the site to ensure efficient District-wide stormwater management.”

Here’s the statement from the Willets Point Industry and Realty Association, and we expect to have more later today.

"The Willets Point Industry and Realty Association (WPIRA) today announced it has successfully negotiated with New York City to reach important agreements related to the Willets Point Development Plan. While all 62 acres of Willets Point will be rezoned, the agreements will allow the three largest landowners - Fodera Foods, House of Spices and Tully Construction to have an opportunity to remain in operation on their existing sites for a period of time as the development progresses, and, ultimately, have an opportunity to sell their sites at the up-zoned value directly to future developers. The developers would be required to build in conformity with the Mayor's plan, and today's agreements will allow the overall timeframe of the City's redevelopment plan to go unchanged. The WPIRA is continuing to negotiate with the City and is confident we will reach deals for the remaining landowners and encourage the City to negotiate relocation deals for the other business owners."


http://www.observer.com/2008/real-estate/accord-willets-point-gets-complicated

For those that weren't paying attention the above article basically means that the cost of this Willets Point scheme will be much more than was previously thought:

* Concessions to Fodera Foods, House of Spices and Tully Construction mean that cleanup will cost far more with a much greater possibility of failure

* These companies will actually get compensated an inflated fair value for their land. Although it says developers will pay this, I think we all know by now that one way or another the public will ultimately pay the bill and the bill will be enormous.

Does the City really have the money to pay for all this?

In related news:

Mayor to Hike Sales Tax, Give City Employees the Ax

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2009/01/mayor_to_hike_sales_tax_give_c.html

Doomsday: MTA Approves Big Fare Hikes, Service Cuts

http://gothamist.com/2009/03/25/doomsday_mta_board_votes_on_fare_hi.php

New City Tax Hikes Raise Likely Job Loss Toll

http://www.nyfiscalwatch.com/html/fwm_2003-06.html

[BiggieSmalls]

Now who looks obsessed?

As long as the phase one of 126th street gets done in the next three years all Mets fans will be ecstatic and it will be a vast improvement over what is there now.

[Anthony]

My complaint is that this seems to be yet another instance of eminent domain abuse. Yes, the place is run down. Yes I would like a bar to go to before games (I just moved back to NY from Chicago, the area around Wrigley is a great place before a game to hang out).

But the question is, are you using eminent domain power to give private land to a private developer? Where is the "public use"?

I know that under Kelo v. New London the "public use" requirement has pretty much been written out of the Constitution. But still, that does not make it correct.

And if you are talking about having a city owned facility there, you get past public use, but given the economy, where is the money coming from?

[BiggieSmalls]

nymTom --

I didnt know "Mongoose" had that big an anti Wilpon agenda.

Although from his posts here it clearly looks like the user is obsessed with counting the Wilpon's money.

I just want a nice place to see the game and will count wins on the field.

[Voodoo]

On a much smaller scale, Louisville Slugger Field was built on the site of an industrial manufacturing and recycling company. Like the Triangle, decades of raw pollutants went into the ground, and many thought the solution was the same as mentioned above: dig down a few feet and cap it with clean soil. But the further down they went, the worse it got and that project was lengthened by a year cleaning it out. Once you've evicted the chop shops, and I would imagine they'll fight to the death to get compensated far more than they're worth, there could be an ecological disaster awaiting the developers of the Triangle. Even assuming the financial world recovers in a reasonable time, it's going to take a good bit of time to redo the area.

All the more reason to get started I'd think. It can't be good for anyone to keep delaying the cleanup of what sounds like some nasty contamination.

[Jim Vaz]

What I find so funny is that I think that the folks behind the fight there want to believe that the public is behind them, when in reality nobody wants that criminally run cesspool open another day then it has to be. Like the nice little signs that they have up about eminent domain abuse. Granted I can't say I'm not a hypocrite because in reality they have a point and eminent domain abuse is unamerican in many aspects, but were not talking about preserving anything of any value here, at least not to me.

I may be selfish, I may not be considering others but you know what? I don't care/ When you allow yourself to operate as you were with zero disregard for anything, I have no symapthy for you. Now their time has come, Its OVER chops shops!!

[Anthony]

Granted I can't say I'm not a hypocrite because in reality they have a point and eminent domain abuse is unamerican in many aspects, but were not talking about preserving anything of any value here, at least not to me.



Maybe it is not of value to you, but what about them. It is their business. You can laugh at it, but they are providing something of value to society.

Maybe someone will decide your modest home can be replaced by Million Dollar condos, increasing property values and tax revenues.

[Mongoose]

What I find so funny is that I think that the folks behind the fight there want to believe that the public is behind them, when in reality nobody wants that criminally run cesspool open another day then it has to be. Like the nice little signs that they have up about eminent domain abuse. Granted I can't say I'm not a hypocrite because in reality they have a point and eminent domain abuse is unamerican in many aspects, but were not talking about preserving anything of any value here, at least not to me.

I may be selfish, I may not be considering others but you know what? I don't care/ When you allow yourself to operate as you were with zero disregard for anything, I have no symapthy for you. Now their time has come, Its OVER chops shops!!

I don't really care about them one way or the other, but like it or not they are legal businesses with title deeds to their property. If they can be railroaded and kicked off their land today, who's to say you and I can't be tomorrow?

[Jim Vaz]

Maybe it is not of value to you, but what about them. It is their business. You can laugh at it, but they are providing something of value to society.

Maybe someone will decide your modest home can be replaced by Million Dollar condos, increasing property values and tax revenues.

pffttt. Sorry but I'm tired of hearing the cute little sob stories about the cesspool. Those crimimally run businesses provide nothing but waste that pollutes the ground they're under and create an embarrasing eyesore.

I never said those people should not be fairly compensated and possible moved.
Hey if someone wants to come along and tear down my "modest" home for some condos, if I'm given fair market return for it, go ahead. Its a house, houses are replaceble.

[Jim Vaz]

I don't really care about them one way or the other, but like it or not they are legal businesses with title deeds to their property. If they can be railroaded and kicked off their land today, who's to say you and I can't be tomorrow?

Yea maybe I'm taking too hard of a stand when in reality I really don't care what happens either way, Citi will still be there.

At this point, the tide going against them is too strong. Now that could change, but for now I don't see it surviving more then 5 years.

[Mongoose]

nymTom --

I didnt know "Mongoose" had that big an anti Wilpon agenda.

Although from his posts here it clearly looks like the user is obsessed with counting the Wilpon's money.

I just want a nice place to see the game and will count wins on the field.

If all you care about is a nice place to see the game and counting wins on the field then why are you agitating for $3 billion to be thrown at building a big glossy development on a toxic dump across the street?

[BiggieSmalls]

If all you care about is a nice place to see the game and counting wins on the field then why are you agitating for $3 billion to be thrown at building a big glossy development on a toxic dump across the street?

If you rad my comments i would be happy with an arena build across the street from Citi with a giant entertainment concourse in between.

Whether they eventually build low cost housing is of no care to me as I will not be living there. A hotel would be nice but I have my own bed to sleep in.

I think Met's fans and New Yorksers would be better served over the long term from a 365 day a year sports, entertainment and convention complex than a bunch of chop shops that dont collect sales tax, dont pay employment tax in their illegal alien workers, pollute the environment with their shoddy business practices and contribute to crime by acting as a clearing house for stolen auto parts.

If the govt has to force the people out then pay them a fair price and relocate them someplace else and lets move forward rather than living in this wild west, tijuana slum mentality.

[Jim Vaz]

If you rad my comments i would be happy with an arena build across the street from Citi with a giant entertainment concourse in between.

Whether they eventually build low cost housing is of no care to me as I will not be living there. A hotel would be nice but I have my own bed to sleep in.

I think Met's fans and New Yorksers would be better served over the long term from a 365 day a year sports, entertainment and convention complex than a bunch of chop shops that dont collect sales tax, dont pay employment tax in their illegal alien workers, pollute the environment with their shoddy business practices and contribute to crime by acting as a clearing house for stolen auto parts.

If the govt has to force the people out then pay them a fair price and relocate them someplace else and lets move forward rather than living in this wild west, tijuana slum mentality.

Tijuana slums are nicer then that place. And I honestly mean that...


That whole arena thing is just hogwash. A ploy by Islanders owner Wang to get Nassau to come up with a decision already, their is nothing concrete about an arena going in there. They are either staying or going to Kansas City. Besides they don't need 3 NHL teams playing within 20 miles of each other.

[Mongoose]

If you rad my comments i would be happy with an arena build across the street from Citi with a giant entertainment concourse in between.

Whether they eventually build low cost housing is of no care to me as I will not be living there. A hotel would be nice but I have my own bed to sleep in.

I think Met's fans and New Yorksers would be better served over the long term from a 365 day a year sports, entertainment and convention complex than a bunch of chop shops that dont collect sales tax, dont pay employment tax in their illegal alien workers, pollute the environment with their shoddy business practices and contribute to crime by acting as a clearing house for stolen auto parts.

If the govt has to force the people out then pay them a fair price and relocate them someplace else and lets move forward rather than living in this wild west, tijuana slum mentality.

I suspect the low income housing has to be part of the proposed package for the government to be involved and eminent domain to be used. Even back in the 1950s similar proposals for "affordable" housing were tacked on to Walter O'Malley's proposals for the stadium he wanted at Atlantic and Flatbush. I believe this gives the scheme a fig leaf of justification as a "public" project. Any way you look at it, if this project happens the housing over the toxic dump will happen.

There are three basic problems with constructing an arena, beyond cost and the fact that there are plenty of arenas in the NY metropolitan area:

* There are no teams to play in the arena. As a previous poster noted, even in a good economy to spend $3 billion to build an arena and surrounding neighborhood to support the arena on spec is insanity. In the current environment nobody private will finance it.

* A huge toxic dump has to be cleaned up. Landfill and sewers would then need to be put in. The land to build on isn't even really there; not enough to support any structures of any great substance. All that's there for sure is plenty of contamination. Actual buildings will take many years to be built. By that time the Nets and Islanders will have their future settled.

* Even if a hockey team and a basketball team wind up in a proposed arena, there will only be 166 home games featuring all three teams combined each year. That's around 200 days of down time each year. This still won't generate enough traffic to justify the $3 billion price tag for building a phony neighborhood.

As for the rest of what you wrote, it's a bunch of lies. Fodera Foods, House of Spices and Tully Construction contribute plenty to the tax base I'm sure, and if all the rest of the businesses pay a penny combined they pay more than Wilpon, who is using the money he should be paying in taxes to service the debt on his new stadium.

Like Wilpon and apparently all other sports team owners in America, I'm sure if anyone ever moves into the proposed arena their contribution would be nil as well.

[Jim Vaz]

Personally, I don't care what goes there, because I would never live in NYC and especially under the direct flightpath of a busy airport
. I wouldn't even mind the chop shops remaining if they would just clean the place up and make it respectable. Look even Yankee Stadium has some ugly run down buildings by it. Thats life, but pale in comparison to the eyesore of Willets Point.

If anything, give the businesses a trime line to clean up or face the news.

[SilentKiller]

This was a great idea for a thread and ofcourse it will stir a great debate but i just cant read Mongoose and Silent Killer's posts any longer. Debating is fine and opinions will vary, but they are speaking pure nonsense with NO facts to support there case..

Its pure garble to think this project will only benefit the Wilpons? seriously? Cmon Now.. Also this 10 year or so project will keep many union workers working and some will retire on the project as well and if everything that was proposed was built the jobs created will be 10 fold as to whats there now and yes the businesses will ALL be legal . Not saying all of the Iron triangle is illegal now or even in shambles but seriously, if i owned a clean cut business, i wouldn't want it to be in that mess as is anyways.. And for Mongoose who's motive is only to protect all Teachers, Policemen and Firemen. Really we should only worry about their jobs, the kinda of jobs that get paid decent, have usually great security and get the best pensions and benefits available . Yes thay are all much needed and important jobs but there are plenty of other people losing their jobs at the moment. Not to get into it , but i have 6 retired Police friends all in their early 30's due to injury getting 3/4 pay and benefits for life. i will attest that their injuries are not that serious and we the tax payers are paying their way for life. They beat the system i guess.. So really think outside the box a bit and realize a project like this is way more benficial especially now as the jobs created will keep people working. Just think how many of those Union workers may have been laid off after Citifield was complete. Yes it only gave them two years of work but a project like the redevelopment of Willets point can keep them going for a long time and hopefully soon the country will be in a better state financially but thats for another debate cause with all these Bailouts, which seem to be helping little, who do you think is going to pay all this money back, Yes the Taxpayers, UGH!!!!!

The same as the facts being said in the opposite direction right? Sorry if I'm not too excited about eminent domain abuse and don't believe everything the government tells me and actually question what I'm being told. I tried to be one of the sheep but it just doesn't work for me. Eminent domain abuse to help corporate interests should always be opposed.

Look at all the many jobs they said the new Yankee Stadium was going to create when they were proposing it and the projections turned out wrong. Only 20 full time jobs have been created by the new stadium while the South Bronx remains the poorest Congressional District in the country.

[Ralf]

The same as the facts being said in the opposite direction right? Sorry if I'm not too excited about eminent domain abuse and don't believe everything the government tells me and actually question what I'm being told. I tried to be one of the sheep but it just doesn't work for me. Eminent domain abuse to help corporate interests should always be opposed.

Look at all the many jobs they said the new Yankee Stadium was going to create when they were proposing it and the projections turned out wrong. Only 20 full time jobs have been created by the new stadium while the South Bronx remains the poorest Congressional District in the country.

So if the missing piece to understanding and developing cold fusion is underneath Willets Point, you'd be against the use of eminent domain?

[SilentKiller]

So if the missing piece to understanding and developing cold fusion is underneath Willets Point, you'd be against the use of eminent domain?

The only time I think eminent domain is right is only in the most extreme of national security matters. This country was not built in seizing people's property to give it to the rich. The right to private property was a cherished liberty held by all of the founding fathers.

[BiggieSmalls]

This country was not built in seizing people's property to give it to the rich.

Go tell that to an American Indian.


The right to private property was a cherished liberty held by all of the founding fathers.


And the right of Eminent Domain is written into the constitution and has roots in society going back to over 1,000 years.

[SilentKiller]

Go tell that to an American Indian.



And the right of Eminent Domain is written into the constitution and has roots in society going back to over 1,000 years.

What is your point go tell that to an American Indian? What happened to them was absolutely wrong and they haven't been compensated enough in my opinion. Or are you saying what happened to them was right?

It was only in the last 5 years that the Supreme Court held that municipalities could use eminent domain to take private property to facilitate privately owned commercial endeavors that have nothing to do with public use, which ranks up there with some of the worst court decisions ever.

[BiggieSmalls]

What is your point go tell that to an American Indian? What happened to them was absolutely wrong and they haven't been compensated enough in my opinion. Or are you saying what happened to them was right?


Mine was a statement of fact. Yours was not. That was my point.

I dont think an American Indian would agree with your statement that

This country was not built in seizing people's property to give it to the rich.

[BiggieSmalls]

GREAT NEWS FOR THOSE SUPPORTING THE DEVELOPMENT!!!!


http://www.observer.com/2009/real-estate/recession-hops-7-train

With Willets, the city now is planning to start taking bids for design of about $150 million in infrastructure work later this month, and is prepared to bid out development of a portion of the site later this year, if the market should improve by then. That section would be the southwest corner of the site—which sits across the street from Citi Field and the No. 7 line—where a developer could build up to 2.5 million square feet of mostly housing and retail. The developer ultimately selected for that section would likely have an option on the second and third phases.


Welcome to the New Greatest Baseball Neighborhood in the Country!!!

COMING SOON!!

[SilentKiller]

Mine was a statement of fact. Yours was not. That was my point.

I dont think an American Indian would agree with your statement that

This country was not built in seizing people's property to give it to the rich.

American Indians were not citizens of this country so the government could say they were not infringing on their rights and they signed numerous treaties with the government anyway. My statement was definitely built on fact.

[BiggieSmalls]

American Indians were not citizens of this country so the government could say they were not infringing on their rights and they signed numerous treaties with the government anyway. My statement was definitely built on fact.


So American Indians are not "people" in your mind? And what is the difference between these "treaties" and signed contracts for "fair market value"?

Who is to say who was a "Citizen of this country in the formative years of this country when Rich people from England routinely seized the property of Native Americans using the same law that you now rail against.

Your comments of "Cherished liberty" and "seizing people's property" is completely emotional and not based in fact -- as I pointd out in my comments.

No matter. According to the NY Observer the newest Baseball Neighborhood is in our sights.

[SilentKiller]

So American Indians are not "people" in your mind? And what is the difference between these "treaties" and signed contracts for "fair market value"?

Who is to say who was a "Citizen of this country in the formative years of this country when Rich people from England routinely seized the property of Native Americans using the same law that you now rail against.

Your comments of "Cherished liberty" and "seizing people's property" is completely emotional and not based in fact -- as I pointd out in my comments.

No matter. According to the NY Observer the newest Baseball Neighborhood is in our sights.

There's no point in arguing over what happened 100 years ago. American Indians were not citizens so they had no legal right to property. Neither did Blacks and neither did women. The people who were citizens was always fully determined by law so your point doesn't hold water. If you want to argue that the laws were wrong and hypocritical then argue that, but I'm simply stating the facts while you're the one who is arguing emotionally. Indians were not citizens and were considered members of foreign nations.

No matter as was said in the article by a member of the Willets Point group fighting against the Bloomberg administration, “Let’s face reality,” said Jake Bono, a spokesman for and member of the group, “no one here is going anywhere."

[metfan13]

So American Indians are not "people" in your mind? And what is the difference between these "treaties" and signed contracts for "fair market value"?

Who is to say who was a "Citizen of this country in the formative years of this country when Rich people from England routinely seized the property of Native Americans using the same law that you now rail against.

Your comments of "Cherished liberty" and "seizing people's property" is completely emotional and not based in fact -- as I pointd out in my comments.

No matter. According to the NY Observer the newest Baseball Neighborhood is in our sights.

Where did he say they weren't people? He said they weren't citizens of the country, which is true. Also much land was taken by poor people too, not just the rich stealing from the poor.

[BiggieSmalls]

Where did he say they weren't people? He said they weren't citizens of the country, which is true. Also much land was taken by poor people too, not just the rich stealing from the poor.


No one was a "Citizen of this country" in the fifteenth through most of the 18th century in North America.

His original statement was
This country was not built by seizing people's property to give it to the rich.

And I said he was incorrect because land was seized from Indians and given to Rich Europeans in order to "build this country".. As you point out, in the 19th century much land was "taken" from poor people in order to give it to rich people who developed bigger, better projects that are icons today

His original statement was ridiculous and a typical attempt to extract emotion my retort pointed that out.

None of this should detract from the great news in the Observer today.

[SilentKiller]

No one was a "Citizen of this country" in the fifteenth through most of the 18th century in North America.

His original statement was
This country was not built by seizing people's property to give it to the rich.

And I said he was incorrect because land was seized from Indians and given to Rich Europeans in order to "build this country".. As you point out, in the 19th century much land was "taken" from poor people in order to give it to rich people who developed bigger, better projects that are icons today

His original statement was ridiculous and a typical attempt to extract emotion my retort pointed that out.

None of this should detract from the great news in the Observer today.

What are you talking about the 15th century for? This country declared independence in 1776 and actually gained it in 1783 with the constitution becoming law of the land in 1789. And metfan didn't say anything about land being taken from poor people, he said poor people took Indian also not just rich people. My original statement was exactly correct. Indians were not citizens and the 15th century has nothing to do with citizens of this country.

And what I took from this great news of today was what one of those shop owners declared in that none of those shop owners are going anywhere.

[BiggieSmalls]

I'll table this History debate. Suffice to say Eminent Domain has been in existence for over 1,000 years and is writtin into the constitution and has been challenged in the courts many times.

The "shop owner" you refer to is Jake Bono. His shop is in an area of the Iron Triangle that is not part of the phase one development.

He may be there a while but --according tot he article -- the tin shacks along 126th street will not. And that is MAJOR MAJOR news for anyone who has been following this story since it developed

[Mongoose]

His original statement was
This country was not built by seizing people's property to give it to the rich.

And I said he was incorrect because land was seized from Indians and given to Rich Europeans in order to "build this country".. As you point out, in the 19th century much land was "taken" from poor people in order to give it to rich people who developed bigger, better projects that are icons today

This is the statement of either a rich person, an out and out villain, or someone who works advancing the interests of rich people.


I hear through the grape vine that phase one of the Willets Point rebuild will focus on this area. A very very good thing. Cant happen soon enough

As noted before, most regular citizens don't have access to "grapevines" with information on projects like this.

Please explain this grapevine "Biggie"?

[Jim Vaz]

Mongoose..........IPO???
:ooo:

[Mongoose]

Mongoose..........IPO???
:ooo:

Naw... I'm a better writer (I think) and am not interested in rebuilding Shea Stadium or jailing Wilpon and Steinbrenner.

:laugh

[milladrive]

My position here is pretty simple: If New York City can't afford to maintain basic services for its citizens, it has no business funding private business ventures for billionaires.

Wait a minute, I'm confused. Will the public be stuck with the bill -- as you asserted earlier in this thread -- or will it be funded privately by people who already have the money to accomplish it?

Please, make up my mind.

[Jim Vaz]

Naw... I'm a better writer (I think) and am not interested in rebuilding Shea Stadium or jailing Wilpon and Steinbrenner.

:laugh

lol

Sorry I just had to.
;)

[BiggieSmalls]

Please explain this grapevine "Biggie"?


Are you asking that I reveal my sources?

You should spend less time trying to decipher the ulterior motives of your debate opposition and more time refining your argument.

The Observer article confirms my grapevine info.

From your previous writings I am not so sure you would object to the jailing of Wilpon and Steinbrenner.

[Mongoose]

Wait a minute, I'm confused. Will the public be stuck with the bill -- as you asserted earlier in this thread -- or will it be funded privately by people who already have the money to accomplish it?

Please, make up my mind.

As BiggieSmalls keeps reminding us: New York City is already into this fiasco for at least $400,000,000.00 right now.

There's no sign of any private money yet.

[Mongoose]

The Observer article confirms my grapevine info.

How'd you know it before everyone else?

[BiggieSmalls]

How'd you know it before everyone else?

I'v been following this story very closely for some time and have cultivated some sources .

[Mongoose]

I'v been following this story very closely for some time and have cultivated some sources .

My guess is that if you're able to scoop the newspapers on details of a story like this, chances are you work for either the City or Fred Wilpon.

Since you were here earlier in the thread haranguing everyone to call 311 on the business owners across the street from "Citi Field", you most probably work for Fred Wilpon. Considering the lack of finesse and smarts you've shown by outing yourself, I think it's possible you might even be... Jeff Wilpon.

[Paul W]

Welcome to the New Greatest Baseball Neighborhood in the Country!!!

COMING SOON!![/QUOTE]

why is this so important to you?

btw - here's info on the supreme court decision - Kelo v. City of New London http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._New_London

here's the 5th amendment - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

in the words of old casey - "you can look it up!"

[BiggieSmalls]

Considering the lack of finesse and smarts you've shown by outing yourself, I think it's possible you might even be... Jeff Wilpon.

Lack of "finesse and smarts"? What warrants that comment?
Jeff Wilpon... LMAO.. that's funny... obviously i haven't "outed myself" and who cares if I did.

This project should be important to anyone who roots for the team and goes to any number of games at the ball park. And by the amount of people who are posting in this forum it is important.

Keep visiting and discussing guys and dont let the haters get to you.

And nice job on the 311 calls. Seems to have made a difference.

[tmarch291]

After reading this thread, I have to say I am with Mongoose on some issues and I am against this whole construction for the following reasons.

1) No matter who is paying for this, there is simply no market for more luxury housing or retail space. They always say that there will be SOME affordable housing, but they never build much, since affordable housing doesn't make the developers much money.

2) As Mongoose stated earlier, that area is a dump, literally. It would cost millions to clean up. Also, to anybody who is driven through there, parts of it are flooded much of the time since it used to be marshland. It would also have to be properly drained.

3) Queens is already overpopulated as it is. Do we really want more people in our boro?

4) The area would be a traffic nightmare during every Mets game. It's bad now, but immagine what it would be if the traffic from a housing/retail development were added to the mix.

5) People don't realize it, but it is helpful having many of those chop shops. Last year, my car's headlight was broken. The dealer wanted $400 for a new one, but I drove down there and got a perfectly fine used one for $30.

6) Most importantly, it is a great place to park your car for Mets games. Saves you $15.

[BiggieSmalls]

1- the market will determine whether there is a need. Flushign and Corona are bursting at the seams right now.

2. the clean up is budgeted for. If we all know it is a brownfield why would we not clean it up? By your logic we should nver clean up any polluted areas.

3. Nothing you can do about the growing population except build more housing

4. Traffic can be mitigated

5. the $400 headlight you bought for thirty bucks was likely stolen property.
The Chop shops are notorious for stealing parts from cars parked in the stadium parking lot. There have been arrests and convictions.

6. t is illegal to park in the iron triangle for games. You risk having your car stripped down to the nub.

[BigPelfMachine]

After reading this thread, I have to say I am with Mongoose on some issues and I am against this whole construction for the following reasons.

1) No matter who is paying for this, there is simply no market for more luxury housing or retail space. They always say that there will be SOME affordable housing, but they never build much, since affordable housing doesn't make the developers much money.

2) As Mongoose stated earlier, that area is a dump, literally. It would cost millions to clean up. Also, to anybody who is driven through there, parts of it are flooded much of the time since it used to be marshland. It would also have to be properly drained.

3) Queens is already overpopulated as it is. Do we really want more people in our boro?

4) The area would be a traffic nightmare during every Mets game. It's bad now, but immagine what it would be if the traffic from a housing/retail development were added to the mix.

5) People don't realize it, but it is helpful having many of those chop shops. Last year, my car's headlight was broken. The dealer wanted $400 for a new one, but I drove down there and got a perfectly fine used one for $30.

6) Most importantly, it is a great place to park your car for Mets games. Saves you $15.

Lets tackle this one by one

1)The area is not in a nice enough location for luxury housing. This means the vast majority will be in the middle income housing to affordable housing range.

2)I think you would have to agree sooner or later the area needs to be redone, it might be decades from now but the area will need to be redone. If its done now it will cost a certain amount of dollars, but if it's done just say 20 years from now it will cost even more since their will be another 20 years worth of crap in the soil. If the city is going to pay for the cleanup they are saving money in the long run if they do it now.

3) Yes there might be more peope in the bureau but there will be a much nicer area for these new people then current areas. I can easily see your point if these people were to move into current residences but they are moving into new apartments. The ratio of people to sq ft of living space will not change. So there will be more people in the bureau but also more places for thm to live in and to work at.

4)This is the only part I do not have a good response to except that when it's all done hopefully there will be better roads for easier access to and from citi so traffic will be better if not from the same.

5) The city is not closing down these chop shops,they are just relocating them to I think college park so you can easily make a drive over and get your headlight at a discount.

6) You park your car in the Iron Triangle!!!!! you must not drive a new car because there is no way im parking my new lexus in that neighborhood. At least not until they demolish it, clean up the crap and put up some nice buildings and make it a decent looking neighborhood.

[Mongoose]

I think the big problem with this thread is that paid Wilpon shills are using it to instigate a campaign of harassment against legitimate business owners in Willets Point.

Not only is this is a disgrace, but I wonder if it's within forum guidelines?

[MyNameIsMURRAY]

http://irontriangletracker.com/2009/04/02/city-to-issue-request-for-bids-on-150-million-in-infrastructure-in-coming-days/

Guess there is some movement on this project finally. City has issued a RFQ to upgrade infrastructure in Willets Point. That's where the first $150m is going.

[9bigharp9]

I don't have the time to restate all the reasons I think Wilpon is a lousy owner. If anyone cares, I've posted many times about this - you can look up my old posts; I don't feel like rehashing again. Basically, his damned moral prudery was responsible for breaking up the greatest team in history and replacing it with garbage. I never recovered from Dykstra and McDowell for Samuel and all the rest of the miserable trades that got rid of all the great great players from the mid 80s. Ever since, it's been nothing but bland free-agent mercenaries with no fire; losers.

I could have accepted "Citi Field" more easily if he hadn't reduced the 35,000 affordable seats of Upper Deck and Mezzanine down to the 15,000 seating capacity of Promenade. When I found out about this, I said to myself: "How is it possible this greedy jerk is building a new stadium in NYC with the capacity of Wrigley Field and nobody's stopping him?". The guy wanted to reduce capacity to a level where he could play scalper and raise ticket prices through the roof.

Promenade will be a quick sell out - mostly season ticket holders paying hundreds or thousand up front which means the tickets there are no longer all that inexpensive, so the only options for games left from the ticket office will be his $50 bleacher seats and other even more expensive seats.

In looking at the pictures of the place, it's a step down from Shea. There are far more obstructed views now: in order to create a big uninterrupted shopping mall on the Promenade Concourse to sell even more overpriced garbage, he installed those ghastly staircases that will obstruct the view of a large portion of seats in Promenade. As far as I know, it's the only HOK park with this kind of problem. But what do you expect? Why should he care about sightlines? All he cares about is squeezing as much money from the fans as possible.

But this has nothing to do with the Willets Point fiasco, other than the fact that he's initiating the whole thing in yet another display of greed and gall.

In the case of the Willets Point boondoggle (it's not a "redevelopment" because the area was never developed in the first place) the project is all bad.

Why? Plenty of reasons, but I'll keep it simple:

In the current economic climate, spending a cent of public money on a project like this is insane!

How can you take anyone seriously when they say "citifield is a step down from shea". It is just a patently ridiculous comment. As for the willets point project, it needs to be looked at long range. There is nothing wrong with using public money on a project that will ultimately create jobs, revenue, & a huge tax base for the city & the state. Redeveloping that area will pay itself off in probably less than 10 years. You need to stop being so short sighted. "it is not a redevelopment because it was never developed in the first place" is an insane way to look at things. By that notion, what ever has been a dump, should remain a dump. Sorry, thats not very progressive thinking.

[BiggieSmalls]

I think the big problem with this thread is that paid Wilpon shills are using it to instigate a campaign of harassment against legitimate business owners in Willets Point.

Not only is this is a disgrace, but I wonder if it's within forum guidelines?

Questioning people's motivations is really below the belt and without merit.


You have no proof of what you posted here. It usually would not merit a response other than your sad cowardly attempt to refer to forum "guidelines" which can be easily looked up.

Stick to the facts and debate the topic or move on to a different thread.

[Mongoose]

How can you take anyone seriously when they say "citifield is a step down from shea". It is just a patently ridiculous comment. As for the willets point project, it needs to be looked at long range. There is nothing wrong with using public money on a project that will ultimately create jobs, revenue, & a huge tax base for the city & the state. Redeveloping that area will pay itself off in probably less than 10 years. You need to stop being so short sighted. "it is not a redevelopment because it was never developed in the first place" is an insane way to look at things. By that notion, what ever has been a dump, should remain a dump. Sorry, thats not very progressive thinking.

Everything's subjective. My preference for Shea over "Citi Field" stems from two main factors:

1) Wilpon cut affordable seating from 35,000 to 15,000. Who cares about a few extra "amenities" when seeing a ballgame has been turned into an expensive hassle. Remember, the point of a ballpark is to facilitate seeing a ballgame; not fancy restaurants.

This alone puts Shea ahead in my book.

2) In order to have a single continuous concourse filled with points of purchase on the Promenade level, Wilpon put in horrible plexiglass staircases that make many of the Promenade seats into "obstructed view" seats. Shea had no obstructed views like these, which is another big point in its favor.

You're entitled to your own opinion, but I don't believe these reasons for mine are "patently ridiculous".

As for creating jobs, revenue, and a tax base: it's been shown in this thread over and over that the costs of this lunatic project greatly outweigh the benefits.

Why embark on a toxic cleanup that will cost scores of millions of dollars, build landfill, install sewers, etc. before the area is even suitable to lay the first brick for the first building? Anyplace else in New York is a better place to build, as jobs could be created years ahead of anything done at Willets Point.

Even in an optimal location, it's foolish for New York City to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on a private real estate development for private real estate developers when it doesn't even have enough money to maintain essential services.

It's simple, really.

[mandrake]

My guess is that if you're able to scoop the newspapers on details of a story like this, chances are you work for either the City or Fred Wilpon.

Since you were here earlier in the thread haranguing everyone to call 311 on the business owners across the street from "Citi Field", you most probably work for Fred Wilpon. Considering the lack of finesse and smarts you've shown by outing yourself, I think it's possible you might even be... Jeff Wilpon.

Mongoose
This is your classic. I laughed out loud at this one !:laugh

Whenever anyone says that they have a 'grapevine' or something like 'being on the inside'.....it's time they put up or shut up. If someone comes on a public forum and demands that the public call 311 when they see people park on a sidewalk.......c'mon, I could not give a rat's @$$ who is parking on a sidewalk, and I certainly don't try to round up a posse and get the bad guys.

I have ranted on about how I don't like Citi as a sponsor, but I never tried to organize a hit squad. I also disclosed that I never worked for Citi, never had any bad banking issues with them, etc. Full disclosure.

So BiggieSmalls.....please tell us who is giving you this grapevine info and why you are spreading this on the forum. Do you work for the Mets? Do you have a gripe with someone in the Iron Triangle?

I have gone head to head with Mongoose on issues. I don't even agree with him on this issue but he has every right to post in this thread; he provides more facts than you do; he cites articles while you make claims of being harrassed by workers of the Iron Triangle (any proof?); personally attacking him as a coward IS against the forum rules and could be reported to the admins.

[Mongoose]

Questioning people's motivations is really below the belt and without merit.


You have no proof of what you posted here. It usually would not merit a response other than your sad cowardly attempt to refer to forum "guidelines" which can be easily looked up.

Stick to the facts and debate the topic or move on to a different thread.

Please give a credible explanation of how you know the details of this project before they've been reported in the media.

A credible explanation.

[BiggieSmalls]

Do I work for the Mets or the City. No. I dont have any economic benefit in seeing the development happen. No personal issues with anyone in the IT. Except for over 20 years of going to Mets games and seeing the hot mess that it is.

Who ordered a "hit squad"/ Please tell me where that happened. Interesting word play but not facts. I didnt"demand people call 311" I suggested it as a way for people to get involved at a higher level than just spouting off in a comments section.. THAT IS WHAT THE INTERNET IS FOR. Mobilizing people for a cause.

I told you I follow the story very closely.

I did not "know details before they were released" that is ridiculous. Becuase I said the 126th street corridor would be developed first? Anyone who has been following the story would know that.

Yoiu're making unsubstantiated claims that people are "paid hacks" does nothing to further your debate points. This can never be proved by you or disproved by a commenter and just serves as a low blow in my opinion.



As for creating jobs, revenue, and a tax base: it's been shown in this thread over and over that the costs of this lunatic project greatly outweigh the benefits.

In your mind only. Many Many more people (who you in fustration call "paid hacks ") have debated the many many benefits of the project. You just chose not to believe them and rail against th Wilpons and any use of city funds not directed as Firemen, policemen and teachers.

[9bigharp9]

Everything's subjective. My preference for Shea over "Citi Field" stems from two main factors:

1) Wilpon cut affordable seating from 35,000 to 15,000. Who cares about a few extra "amenities" when seeing a ballgame has been turned into an expensive hassle. Remember, the point of a ballpark is to facilitate seeing a ballgame; not fancy restaurants.

This alone puts Shea ahead in my book.

2) In order to have a single continuous concourse filled with points of purchase on the Promenade level, Wilpon put in horrible plexiglass staircases that make many of the Promenade seats into "obstructed view" seats. Shea had no obstructed views like these, which is another big point in its favor.

You're entitled to your own opinion, but I don't believe these reasons for mine are "patently ridiculous".

As for creating jobs, revenue, and a tax base: it's been shown in this thread over and over that the costs of this lunatic project greatly outweigh the benefits.

Why embark on a toxic cleanup that will cost scores of millions of dollars, build landfill, install sewers, etc. before the area is even suitable to lay the first brick for the first building? Anyplace else in New York is a better place to build, as jobs could be created years ahead of anything done at Willets Point.

Even in an optimal location, it's foolish for New York City to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on a private real estate development for private real estate developers when it doesn't even have enough money to maintain essential services.

It's simple, really.

A few extra ameneties? Thats really minimizing the efforts of the new stadium. Also, there are tons of affordable seats in the new stadium. If you go online, there is no issue finding cheap seats to just about every game. Also, I dont know what stadium you went to, but there were tons of obstructed view seats at Shea. Have you ever sat towards the rear of the mezzanine or loge reserved? You couldnt see fly balls. I would almost guarantee that that there were more obstructed view seats at Shea than the handful that are at Citifield. Also, the seats in the whole stadium were pointed away from home plate. I go to about 25 games a year. Shea stadium was a dump, there is no other way to put it. It just drives me nuts to hear people complain about a beautiful, brand new, state of the art ballpark, & have the audacity to say that Shea stadium was a better place to visit.

As for the Willets Point project, if we go by your way of thinking, the area will remain a toxic dump for the next 100 years. The project will pay for itself, eventually, there is no arguing that fact. If you want a good comparison, look at the waterfront by camden yards. That area was exactly like Willets Point 25 years ago. Look at it now. Its a no brainer.

[enysteez]

A few extra ameneties? Thats really minimizing the efforts of the new stadium. Also, there are tons of affordable seats in the new stadium. If you go online, there is no issue finding cheap seats to just about every game. Also, I dont know what stadium you went to, but there were tons of obstructed view seats at Shea. Have you ever sat towards the rear of the mezzanine or loge reserved? You couldnt see fly balls. I would almost guarantee that that there were more obstructed view seats at Shea than the handful that are at Citifield. Also, the seats in the whole stadium were pointed away from home plate. I go to about 25 games a year. Shea stadium was a dump, there is no other way to put it. It just drives me nuts to hear people complain about a beautiful, brand new, state of the art ballpark, & have the audacity to say that Shea stadium was a better place to visit.

As for the Willets Point project, if we go by your way of thinking, the area will remain a toxic dump for the next 100 years. The project will pay for itself, eventually, there is no arguing that fact. If you want a good comparison, look at the waterfront by camden yards. That area was exactly like Willets Point 25 years ago. Look at it now. Its a no brainer.

Agreed! I loved Shea but it was a dump. And there were a lot of obstructions at shea way more than the new park. EVERY park has obstructions with no exceptions so to complain about them is ridiculous. Just learn were they are and if they bother you that much...dont buy those seats.

In any case the area around Citi will be beautiful soon enough and I cant wait. Saving a few mob run chop shops isnt gonna make me cry for the small business man.

[BiggieSmalls]

As for the Willets Point project, if we go by your way of thinking, the area will remain a toxic dump for the next 100 years. The project will pay for itself, eventually, there is no arguing that fact. If you want a good comparison, look at the waterfront by camden yards. That area was exactly like Willets Point 25 years ago. Look at it now. Its a no brainer.


GREAT POINT!! How about Petco in SD and the park in San Fran? both built in historically blighted neighborhoods that became hubs of entertainment and night life.

But in Mongoose's world it has been "proven over and over that the costs of this lunatic project greatly outweigh the benefits".

The project will generate over 20,000 construction jobs and over 5,000 permanent jobs by DISPLACING 1200 jobs in the iron triangle.. Most of these jobs will be moving to other areas when their business owners are relocated.

His solution is to leave a hot polluted mess alone and let it fester and grow for another 75 years.

Watch him call me an "insider and a paid shill" for quoting numbers that are widely distributed.

His Shea/Citi comparison isnt even worth addressing and not for this thread. Shea should have been shut down just based on the condition of the bathrooms.

[lorwood]

I walked down 126th myself on Sunday. My friend and I wondered aloud: how can a business be profitable as a Discount Muffler Shop when it's surrounded by about 250 other Discount Muffler Shops.Because none of those businesses have anything to do with mufflers if you know what I mean. They will have to add another year to the project so they can complete the Hoffa investigation.

[Mongoose]

Do I work for the Mets or the City. No. I dont have any economic benefit in seeing the development happen. No personal issues with anyone in the IT. Except for over 20 years of going to Mets games and seeing the hot mess that it is.

Who ordered a "hit squad"/ Please tell me where that happened. Interesting word play but not facts. I didnt"demand people call 311" I suggested it as a way for people to get involved at a higher level than just spouting off in a comments section.. THAT IS WHAT THE INTERNET IS FOR. Mobilizing people for a cause.

I told you I follow the story very closely.

I did not "know details before they were released" that is ridiculous. Becuase I said the 126th street corridor would be developed first? Anyone who has been following the story would know that.

Yoiu're making unsubstantiated claims that people are "paid hacks" does nothing to further your debate points. This can never be proved by you or disproved by a commenter and just serves as a low blow in my opinion.




In your mind only. Many Many more people (who you in fustration call "paid hacks ") have debated the many many benefits of the project. You just chose not to believe them and rail against th Wilpons and any use of city funds not directed as Firemen, policemen and teachers.

1) You yourself claimed to have special sources on this story.

2) You yourself then gave us information on the project which had not been made public yet and was not known by the general public:

126th Street is generally well maintained. Swept regularly, plowed and paved. Yet tin shacks still exist on the eastern edges. This should not happen.

I hear through the grape vine that phase one of the Willets Point rebuild will focus on this area. A very very good thing. Cant happen soon enough

And lo and behold, you were right: you knew about this before it had even been reported in the media! In fact you repeatedly mentioned the destruction of the tin shacks even though it wasn't even in the Observer article you linked to!


The "shop owner" you refer to is Jake Bono. His shop is in an area of the Iron Triangle that is not part of the phase one development.

He may be there a while but --according tot he article -- the tin shacks along 126th street will not. And that is MAJOR MAJOR news for anyone who has been following this story since it developed

How do you even know who Jake Bono is or where his shop is??? It wasn't in the article!!!

How do you know the smallest details of Phase 1 of the project, right down to what's going to happen to the tin shacks on the eastern edges of the targeted area???

This is not knowledge even a very interested outside observer is going to have!!!

3) You yourself credited your "inside sources" for this.

The Observer article confirms my grapevine info.

Up to now, you've failed to give a credible explanation for how you know all these things only somebody deeply connected with the project would know.

How do you know all these things???

[lorwood]

BiggieSmalls

"I think your brains gone soft. Never let anybody outside of the family know what you are thinking"

[BiggieSmalls]

ha ha lorwood. This guy is all about conspiracy theories.

He even thinks Im Jeff Wilpon.. LMAO.

Just because someone knows more facts than you do about a project doesnt make them an "insder".

Stephen Sterling gives more details on the new Phased Approach to the development including the pending development of the 126th street corridor

http://irontriangletracker.com/2009/04/03/city-adopts-new-approach-to-willets-development/#more-805

Good Good NEws for ALL Mets Fans.

[BiggieSmalls]

David Howard, a Mets Executive, on WFAN right now talking about how 126th street WILL be like YAWKEY WAY in the next 5 years.

So that's not Me Mongoose.. LMAO>

[Mongoose]

David Howard, a Mets Executive, on WFAN right now talking about how 126th street WILL be like YAWKEY WAY in the next 5 years.

So that's not Me Mongoose.. LMAO>

Look, you were running around here telling everyone to call 311 and harass the business owners across the street from "Citi Field". Hardly the behavior of a neutral party.

You then told everybody that you had special inside access to information on this project, which was quoted in my previous post.

You then proved your inside information was accurate, which was documented in my previous post.

You yourself attribute this knowledge to special inside sources!!!

How do you know details about this project the general public couldn't???

I'm afraid you won't be allowed to squirm out of this.

[BiggieSmalls]

the only one squirming is you. With nothing to support your debate you attack the motives of myself and other posters who support the development.

Just because I know where Bono's shop is doesnt make me an "insider"./

No one suggested business owners be haraseed. despite your constantly making that accusation. Suggesting people mobilize for a cause and report illegal activity is the basis of the internet.

"special inside sources"? a little dramatic arent we. conjers up images of deep throat and clandestine operations. I never described the "grapevine" as "special" or even "inside" for that matter. This is just you expanding on your paranoia and accusations.

If you are so interested in this development it would serve you to show up at public meetings and talk to people. You too may develop a network of contacts who also have interest int he project then .. who knows.. you may be a part of the "grapevine" as well. Which is how i actually described my network of contacts.

If you've nothing to add of substance please dont take up bandwidth with any more conspiracy theories.

Oh.. and Jeff Wilpon was on WFAN this morning about the same time as I posted so that rules him out too.. LMAO

[Mongoose]

the only one squirming is you. With nothing to support your debate you attack the motives of myself and other posters who support the development.

Just because I know where Bono's shop is doesnt make me an "insider"./

No one suggested business owners be haraseed. despite your constantly making that accusation. Suggesting people mobilize for a cause and report illegal activity is the basis of the internet.

"special inside sources"? a little dramatic arent we. conjers up images of deep throat and clandestine operations. I never described the "grapevine" as "special" or even "inside" for that matter. This is just you expanding on your paranoia and accusations.

If you are so interested in this development it would serve you to show up at public meetings and talk to people. You too may develop a network of contacts who also have interest int he project then .. who knows.. you may be a part of the "grapevine" as well. Which is how i actually described my network of contacts.

If you've nothing to add of substance please dont take up bandwidth with any more conspiracy theories.

Oh.. and Jeff Wilpon was on WFAN this morning about the same time as I posted so that rules him out too.. LMAO

O.K. then...

1) If the location of Jake Bono's shop and where it falls in relation to Phase 1 of the development project is such common knowledge, please post a link to a source.

If the fate of the tin shacks along the eastern edge of the area during Phase 1 is such common knowledge, please post a link to a source.

2) Generally the only people that bother to show up for such public meetings are interested parties: in this case Wilpon related individuals and City officials on one side, and the Willets Point business owners and anti-eminent domain activists, etc. on the other side. I guess there'd also be a smattering of press.

If you're really just a simple Mets fan as you claim, you'd be way out of your element at a meeting like that. This would go way beyond sitting in a nice seat at the ballpark and counting wins, which you claimed earlier as your only interest in this matter.

And by the way, public hearings for things like these are generally scheduled during most people's working hours - in the case of the NYCEDC hearing, for example, 10:00 A.M. on a Friday:

http://www.nycedc.com/Web/AboutUs/OurProjects/CurrentProjects/WilletsPointDevelopmentDistrict.htm

I'm glad your (ahem) work schedule gives you enough flexibility to freely attend these events!

:laugh

[BiggieSmalls]

O.K. then...

1) If the location of Jake Bono's shop and where it falls in relation to Phase 1 of the development project is such common knowledge, please post a link to a source.

I dont know why i am continuing this
http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=bono+sawdust&near=New+York,+NY&fb=1&split=1&gl=us&view=text&latlng=17328107298112551657#


If the fate of the tin shacks along the eastern edge of the area during Phase 1 is such common knowledge, please post a link to a source.


If you have been following this story for any time you'd know that information. I am sorry but I cannot compensate for your lack of information in my posts. Suffice to say it is common knowledge to anyone following the story (the grapevine if you will) that the development would be done in stages since the City cut a deal with Fodera, Soni and Tully in November.


2) Generally the only people that bother to show up for such public meetings are interested parties: in this case Wilpon related individuals and City officials on one side, and the Willets Point business owners and anti-eminent domain activists, etc. on the other side. I guess there'd also be a smattering of press.


you obviously were not at any of the meeting. There has been a decent contingent of Mets fans at all the public Meetings including CB7, City Council and CPC meetings. Just because your involvement in the project is limited to spouting invective in a comment section with no supporting information doesnt mean eveyone else is on the same playing field.

[Atlantic Ave]

2) Generally the only people that bother to show up for such public meetings are interested parties: in this case Wilpon related individuals and City officials on one side, and the Willets Point business owners and anti-eminent domain activists, etc. on the other side. I guess there'd also be a smattering of press.

this is grossly misinformed and a bit sad. all kinds of people show up for community board and neighborhood association meetings all of the time without having a motive other than to educate themselves.

[Mongoose]

I dont know why i am continuing this
http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=bono+sawdust&near=New+York,+NY&fb=1&split=1&gl=us&view=text&latlng=17328107298112551657#



If you have been following this story for any time you'd know that information. I am sorry but I cannot compensate for your lack of information in my posts. Suffice to say it is common knowledge to anyone following the story (the grapevine if you will) that the development would be done in stages since the City cut a deal with Fodera, Soni and Tully in November.

Maybe so, but we wouldn't have the kind of extraordinary detail that you do.

We wouldn't know the precise location of Jake Bono's shop in terms of where it lies in relation to Phase 1 of the plan.

We wouldn't know the impact of Phase 1 on the tin shacks on the eastern edge of the designated area.

Your link doesn't show anything but the guy's address. This will not give anybody but someone with inside information any clue to these details you have such an immediate grasp of.

You know things only an insider would know; things that have not been reported in media.

How do you know them???

you obviously were not at any of the meeting. There has been a decent contingent of Mets fans at all the public Meetings including CB7, City Council and CPC meetings. Just because your involvement in the project is limited to spouting invective in a comment section with no supporting information doesnt mean eveyone else is on the same playing field.

The only way you could really know what the turnout was to all those meetings, along with the breakdown of demographics, was to have been there.

This, once again, is not the action of a simple Mets fan who's only interested in sitting in a nice seat and counting wins on the field.

[Mongoose]

this is grossly misinformed and a bit sad. all kinds of people show up for community board and neighborhood association meetings all of the time without having a motive other than to educate themselves.

You're right, but the average citizen isn't a one issue groupie on a development plan like this unless they have a vested interest one way or the other. There just aren't enough hours in the day. The level of detail this guy has on the plan exceeds what the average informed citizen would glean by attending meetings such as this.

He has just given us a breakdown of the attendance at CB7, City Council and CPC meetings. This is not something the average citizen who's simply interested in being well informed would know. Attending your local community board meeting is one thing. Attending every public meeting during work hours in every borough is another.

He knows a lot of things that the average informed citizen just shouldn't know.

Basically I agree with you, but something is going on here above and beyond an average citizen's desire to be aware of the issues of the day.

[BiggieSmalls]

The only way you could really know what the turnout was to all those meetings, along with the breakdown of demographics, was to have been there.

This, once again, is not the action of a simple Mets fan who's only interested in sitting in a nice seat and counting wins on the field.



Breakdown in Demographics?? good grief.. do you see black helicopters flying over your house?

My last comment on this is that just because people know more about a topic than you doesnt mean they are insders with an axe to grind.

I could easily turn this around and say you have an axe to grind with the Wilpons based on some of your comments./ You seem to be a "one issue groupie" with respect to that topic.

Let's get this back on topic.

I wonder why the Willets Point Business and Land Owners never started a Business Improvement District like 60 some other commercial neighborhoods have to fund regular clean ups and security. I would think 5-10 years ago the Mets would have been involved in this and it would have certainly put a new clean face on a part of the city that is widely ridiculed as a stinking mess.

[Mongoose]

Breakdown in Demographics?? good grief.. do you see black helicopters flying over your house?

My last comment on this is that just because people know more about a topic than you doesnt mean they are insders with an axe to grind.

I could easily turn this around and say you have an axe to grind with the Wilpons based on some of your comments./ You seem to be a "one issue groupie" with respect to that topic.

Let's get this back on topic.

I wonder why the Willets Point Business and Land Owners never started a Business Improvement District like 60 some other commercial neighborhoods have to fund regular clean ups and security. I would think 5-10 years ago the Mets would have been involved in this and it would have certainly put a new clean face on a part of the city that is widely ridiculed as a stinking mess.

Nobody's talking about any conspiracy theories here. All that's being pointed out is the enormous and mounting body of evidence that you're not the simple Mets fan you portray yourself to be.

If this is the case:

* It exposes you as fundamentally dishonest.

* It shows you're using deceit in trying to push a "grassroots" program of having posters to this board call 311 to harass the legitimate businesses of Willets Point. You're trying to trick innocent people into being your stooges and doing your dirty work for you.

This is a dirty trick right out of a filthy political campaign and has no place on a baseball message board which has a stated policy of being neutral and non-political.

* You should announce that you're a paid advocate of a certain point of view and you really aren't here to debate but to proselytize, and that your posts are not so much expressions of your own opinion as paid advertisements and should be regarded as such.

* You should just come clean so that we can move forward.

Once again:

How exactly do you know all of these minute details of the development plan that no ordinary citizen could possibly know?

[Paul W]

thanx m'goose!!!!

in the words of jeff kent - "...enjoy the game more"

[Mongoose]

thanx m'goose!!!!

in the words of jeff kent - "...enjoy the game more"

You know one has to wonder:

Was Wilpon able to be screwed so badly by Madoff because he was surrounded by bonehead bunglers like this?

or...

Is Wilpon so broke after being screwed by Madoff that bonehead bunglers like this are all he can afford to hire now?

;)

[BiggieSmalls]

what is this "enormous mounting body of evidence" you refer to again?


Because I called that the 126th street corridor would get developed first before it appeared in the newspaper?



Nobody's talking about any conspiracy theories here.


yet you accuse people of mounting shadow campaigns involving commenter p[aid for by either political parties, individuals or wealthy developers/ball club owners.

All this without so much as a stitch of real proof. The only thing I agree with on is that I know infinitely more about this development than you. That may scare or intimidate you.That is your problem. I find it humorous that you refer to someone with superior knowledge of an issue a "bonehead bungler". Should these personal attacks continue I will be forced to get a moderator involved. Personal Attacks such as this are a clear violation of the terms of service.


I have stated in this forum that I have no financial dog in this fight. You can chose not to believe that but please move off this and focus on the debate at hand rather than your vast conspiracy theories. This is all likely an effort by you to redirect the debate from the facts to accusations about your debate opposition. An underhanded tactic and totally obvious to those reading this.

[BiggieSmalls]

Back on Topic.

Dave Howard on the FAN said 126th street will be fully developed within FIVE YEARS>

I think.
every tin shack below 127th street will be flattened by 2010 and cleaned up

phase one
Then they put in the sewers, drains, exit ramp and build it up with entertainment/retail and some housing

when its all done in 5 years they maybe bring the islanders (2015 if lighthouse doesnt get built) over or maybe a hockey/soccer indoor outdoor arena. Bigger than Izod with a retractable roof and an ajoining hotel. phase 2

Then they build some affordable housing in phase 3.


you simply cant allow an area of New York to look like its out of a MAd MAx Movie and steep in pollution.

[mandrake]

when its all done in 5 years they maybe bring the islanders (2015 if lighthouse doesnt get built) over or maybe a hockey/soccer indoor outdoor arena. .

There will be no NY Islanders if they have to wait until 2015 for a new deal. The owner said so on TV during an Islander telecast. He said they have a window to leave come October 2009. This was his words, as he was interviewed by Howie Rose. He ended the interview with a snide "I hear there are great barbecue places in Kansas City". Wang will not wait 6 years.

[BiggieSmalls]

Article in the Daily News and NYT on how spending at the Dept of Education is out of control.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/education/2009/04/02/2009-04-02_city_controller_bill_thompson_education_.html

and
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/01/city-comptroller-william-c-th/

Goes to show that the more money you throw at these pigs the more they eat up. The budget cuts will hopefully force them to prioritize and control financing.

This is relevant to others previous debate points that the City should not be spending money on projects that develop areas into growth engines while cutting budget on teachers, police and firemen.

[BiggieSmalls]

There will be no NY Islanders if they have to wait until 2015 for a new deal. The owner said so on TV during an Islander telecast. He said they have a window to leave come October 2009. This was his words, as he was interviewed by Howie Rose. He ended the interview with a snide "I hear there are great barbecue places in Kansas City". Wang will not wait 6 years.



We'll see what happens there. Looks like they have a 90 day window to approve the Lighthouse. And I understand their lease doesnt expire til 2015. I cant see this guy moving to K.C. Wang is from Queens and has lived on L.I. since 8 years old.

He would be a superb choice to develop a portion of the Iron Triangle. I hope he submits a bid

[mandrake]

We'll see what happens there. Looks like they have a 90 day window to approve the Lighthouse. And I understand their lease doesnt expire til 2015. I cant see this guy moving to K.C. Wang is from Queens and has lived on L.I. since 8 years old.

He would be a superb choice to develop a portion of the Iron Triangle. I hope he submits a bid

You are correct about the lease. However, Wang did tell Howie Rose on TV during a Rangers-Isles game that they can leave in October. There is an escape clause of some sort. I do not want the Isles to leave. I want them and the Nets to move to Flushing Meadows. Also, a soccer stadium complex. Flushing Meadows can become one of the great sports centers in the country.

That being said, Wang did talk about moving to KC. Maybe its his only leverage, and Howie Rose was serving up softballs. Strange seeing Howie in that role.

[BiggieSmalls]

You are correct about the lease. However, Wang did tell Howie Rose on TV during a Rangers-Isles game that they can leave in October. There is an escape clause of some sort. I do not want the Isles to leave. I want them and the Nets to move to Flushing Meadows. Also, a soccer stadium complex. Flushing Meadows can become one of the great sports centers in the country.

That being said, Wang did talk about moving to KC. Maybe its his only leverage, and Howie Rose was serving up softballs. Strange seeing Howie in that role.

Its definitely leverage. Ironic that the Lighthouse deadline coincides with the Willets Point RFPs going out. Maybe there is more to this.

Im a Ranger Fan but no one wants sports teams to leave. Id LOVE it if that area became a sports Mecca. They could put in all sorts of Sports based Entertainment attractions.

The Lighthouse development looks very ambitious. Wonder how Wang thinks he can pull that off in this environment.

It sounds like some of the WP Businesses on the eastern side (outside the 126th - 127th street phase one zone) are coming around to this idea. They wont finance a lawsuit to protect the chop shops. It is a real hierarchy down there. The industrial co's hate the chops as much as Mets Fans do.

[BiggieSmalls]

From the Daily News
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/queens/2009/04/05/2009-04-05_biz_raids_in_willets_met_with_disgust_.html

-----------------
Biz raids in Willets Met with disgust

BY John Lauinger
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

Sunday, April 5th 2009, 4:00 AM

The city is playing hardball with businesses near the Mets' new stadium, a Queens official charges.

In the days leading up to the Mets' exhibition opener last week at Citi Field, city agencies made a sweep of businesses at Willets Point, a gritty industrial zone across from the $850 million stadium.

The multi-agency raids on Thursday and Friday ended with 11 businesses shut down, according to state Sen. Hiram Monserrate (D-Queens).

Most of the businesses were auto-body shops that rent space in the 62-acre strip, which the city plans to redevelop into a glitzy realm of 5,500 housing units, retail stores, a hotel and a convention center.

-----------------

11 more Businesses at 3 locations were fully vacated on thursday and Friday.

This coordinated perfectly with our targeted campaign against the illegal parkers along 126th street.

Thanks to those Mets Fans who supported the effort with 311 calls.

These are tangible results and a move towards cleaning up the Iron Triangle.

[PadreHomer]

I wonder what kind of soil remediation they are going to have to do there before they build businesses and homes

[IPO]

Pathetic how they try to create reasons to get legitimate business out of there because a greedy baseball team does not like the view out his window in a park we paid for.

What's next they turn off the electricity in Willets Points and cut off water, they never gave those businesses septic system or paved roads and refuse to pick up garbage to make the area rundown intentionally. Now they have the building inspectors running around putting violations on them to bully them.

No way they are getting those people out, I hope they stay forever and drive Fredo and that joke Dodger ballpark into oblivion.

[IPO]

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20291473&BRD=2731&PAG=461&dept_id=574902&rfi=6

Willets Point owners do tons of dirty work for city
by Liz Rhoades, Managing Editor
04/02/2009

Willets Point business owners took to the streets on Friday to clean up the area. They say the city continues to neglect the Iron Triangle as it pursues redevelopment.

Spring is heating up and so is the controversy over land in Willets Point.
Property owners at Willets Point contend the city is taking 60 acres there unfairly and has neglected the area for 40 years, in two civil actions now in the court system.

On Friday, about 40 members of Willets Point United Against Eminent Domain Abuse organized a cleanup of garbage dumped along the streets in the area also known as the Iron Triangle. It was their way of trying to embarrass the city for never picking up garbage in Willets Point, according to Jake Bono, group spokesman.

He and his family run Bono Sawdust Supply Co., one of many businesses there that do not want to leave. Last year, the city approved a redevelopment plan for the area that would force nearly all firms to move.

It has offered to relocate businesses and retrain and get jobs for workers.

Friday’s cleanup garnered nearly 18,000 pounds of refuse. Organization members spent four hours working and covered 90 percent of the property. They also paid for the garbage truck.

“There is still plenty of garbage out there,” Bono said. “That’s because of years of dumping and neglect by the city. We wanted to show people what we’re faced with.”


Willets Point has no sidewalks or sewers. Potholes are ignored and fill up with rain in the spring and ice and snow in the winter. Many of the businesses are auto-related and used-car parts and damaged vehicles are strewn throughout the area.

The area is bounded on one side by 126th Street, where many of the auto shops are located, right across the street from the newly completed Citi Field.
The city’s redevelopment plans calls for housing, a school, office and retail stores, a small convention center and hotel. No developer has been selected yet.

“There is no plan,” Bono said, “but the city approved it anyway.”


Although the city has promised to help relocate businesses and plans to move several to College Point, Bono indicated no alternate sites have been suggested this year. And he and others are determined to stay.

“This is our property. We bought it,” he said, noting the city announced it will use eminent domain to gain possession if necessary.

But the more than 24 members of the Willets Point United group are not sitting still. Last month, members filed an Article 78 petition in state Supreme Court, primarily challenging the environmental review done by the city.

An Article 78 proceeding is used to appeal the decision of a local or state agency to the New York courts.

In this case, the group also challenges the plan, which members say takes private property without a public purpose. “We are confident the courts will dismiss the findings of the environmental review submitted by the deputy mayor’s office and that the City Council’s November vote authorizing the redevelopment will be rendered null and void,” said Jerry Antonacci, Willets Point United president.

Bono said the city has until May 27 to answer the proceeding and believes the judge then could stop the project immediately.


Almost a year ago, business owners at Willets Point filed a lawsuit in Brooklyn Federal District Court against the city for neglect. The suit asks for unspecified damages.


Bono said the judge wants to hear arguments from the city to see if the case can move forward. Some action was expected this week.
Pointing to the two court proceedings, Bono added: “We’re moving forward with strong points. “The city blighted the area and is responsible.”

[IPO]

I hope they dump that trash right in front of the phony rotunda and make Fredo pay out of his own pocket to clean it up like they had to.

[IPO]

The project will generate over 20,000 construction jobs and over 5,000 permanent jobs by DISPLACING 1200 jobs in the iron triangle.. Most of these jobs will be moving to other areas when their business owners are relocated.


Wrong.
Billions are lost in public financing so a private baseball team can get free rent, no tax exemptions and make all the money the taxpapers got back at Shea for the first time and now he wants more billions for his brooklyn neighborhood because he don't like the view.

Too damn bad.

Meanwhile your answer is to give all the money to Fred Wilpon because you want a better baseball experience for three hours in a plastic seat while schools and hospitals close and pay countless more billions to clean up one of many area's in New York that have been neglected.


His solution is to leave a hot polluted mess alone and let it fester and grow for another 75 years.

I guess if Newtown creek were next to something Fredo rents from NYC you would be railing for changes there too.

Don't you mean businesses that had billions in binding business contracts with NYC that made a lot more money for everyone than the Mets will, those businesses helped clean up lower Manhattan after 9/11.

Close the restaurant, knock down Fredo's field of schemes, rebuild Shea and get Fredo and Jeff R-Us out of Willets Points forever.

I hope those business protest Fredo's ballpark and force it's closing filing countless lawsuits that force the Mets to fold or relocate to another place in New York.

Hopefully one that displaces homes and a lot of life-long Met fans all in the name of what's good for baseball.

[Ralf]

I can't wait for phase 1 to get started and for those illegal chop shops to be torn down. Bring on progress!

[Ralf]

Biz raids in Willets Met with disgust

BY John Lauinger
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

Sunday, April 5th 2009, 4:00 AM

The city is playing hardball with businesses near the Mets' new stadium, a Queens official charges.

In the days leading up to the Mets' exhibition opener last week at Citi Field, city agencies made a sweep of businesses at Willets Point, a gritty industrial zone across from the $850 million stadium.

The multi-agency raids on Thursday and Friday ended with 11 businesses shut down, according to state Sen. Hiram Monserrate (D-Queens).

Most of the businesses were auto-body shops that rent space in the 62-acre strip, which the city plans to redevelop into a glitzy realm of 5,500 housing units, retail stores, a hotel and a convention center.

-----------------

11 more Businesses at 3 locations were fully vacated on thursday and Friday.

This coordinated perfectly with our targeted campaign against the illegal parkers along 126th street.

Thanks to those Mets Fans who supported the effort with 311 calls.

These are tangible results and a move towards cleaning up the Iron Triangle.

Just going to post this. :clapping

[BiggieSmalls]

Just going to post this. :clapping

phase one of the battle has begun. The 110th precinct and the Dept of Buildings were out in full force last week and this weekend shutting down the illegal tin shacks and towing away cars that are illegally parked om 126th.

"Full Vacate" is the Cheer of the day.


Mets fans are united in this battle. We have started to take back 126th street and the authorities are on our side.

A Happy Day!! BAseball City is right around the corner. rename 126th street Bill Shea Way, shut it down and open the entertainment complex ASAP./

[BiggieSmalls]

Close the restaurant, knock down Fredo's field of schemes, rebuild Shea and get Fredo and Jeff R-Us out of Willets Points forever.

I hope those business protest Fredo's ballpark and force it's closing filing countless lawsuits that force the Mets to fold or relocate to another place in New York.



You and Mongoose obviously have some personal vendetta against the Wilpons.

[locke40]

This is the view enjoyed best when walking to the Pepsi Porch.

67093

[IPO]

Mets fans are united in this battle. We have started to take back 126th street and the authorities are on our side.

You have to own something in the first place to take it back, those businesses were there before any baseball team and are ENTITLED TO BE THERE BY LAW.

You just want to take period.

Fredo and his Brooklyn ballpark are entitled to nothing in that neighborhood from businesses who were there long before Shea.

[metsforever7515]

How about this:

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh82/fightinitalian21/STA_4385Stitch.jpg

This cannot happen fast enough.

[DiggerODell]

How about this:

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh82/fightinitalian21/STA_4385Stitch.jpg

This cannot happen fast enough.

Wow. Goodness. My my. All rolled into 3 1/2 . . . looks the earth is only about 1,000 miles circum. Awesome photo . . .At risk of sounding ignorant, is that Flushing?

[NYMets523]

Close the restaurant, knock down Fredo's field of schemes, rebuild Shea and get Fredo and Jeff R-Us out of Willets Points forever.

This might be the dumbest thing I have ever heard anyone say. Congratulations on setting a new low in stupidity.

[metsforever7515]

Wow. Goodness. My my. All rolled into 3 1/2 . . . looks the earth is only about 1,000 miles circum. Awesome photo . . .At risk of sounding ignorant, is that Flushing?

Yes it is. Directly behind Citi Field.

[metsforever7515]

This might be the dumbest thing I have ever heard anyone say. Congratulations on setting a new low in stupidity.

You're not familiar with the workings of IPO? Do not respond to him!

[IPO]

Funny how Met fans walk into rotunda that honors someone who's life was all about overcoming people who did not want him in baseball and then go outside and want to run out people out of their home working to make a living just because they don't like the view.

Too bad there are no mirrors for some of you in that rotunda.

I bet Jackie Robinson would be on the side of those people if he were alive and no doubt his wife if asked would be too.

But hey, you need another restaurant and a Brooklyn neighborhood to compete with the 15 or 20 Fredo just constructed to take more money out of NYC pockets.

You are not even the first sports team in Willets Point.
Willets Point U.S. Army Engineers Corp School Football Team, 1895. (New York Times) http://www.luckyshow.org/football/WilletsPoint.htm

[BiggieSmalls]

You have to own something in the first place to take it back, those businesses were there before any baseball team and are ENTITLED TO BE THERE BY LAW.


take back in the sense of taking it away from the lawless polluters who control an area of the city resembling tijuana or the slums of rio di janiero and run like it is the wild wild west.

No regard for environmental standards, building codes or work place safety.

It is time to bring the Iron triangle into the 21st century.

Throwing these scoundrels out and cleaning it up is the first step/.
No one is "ENTITLED" to be anywhere. That is the law.

[BiggieSmalls]

Of course if you know ANYTHING about New York history you'd know that "Willets Point" was historically where Fort Totten is now.

What is today referred to as "Willets Point" is actually shortened from Willets Point Boulevard. The area commonly referred to as the Iron Triangle (Willets Point) was a garbage dump, then a coal ash dump then a staging ground for the construction of the highway system and the Worlds Fair.

Indeed what the Mayor and teh EDC is trying to do is "Save Willets Point" from 70 plus years of toxic pollution and lawlessness.

[DiggerODell]

Yes it is. Directly behind Citi Field.

I thought so, I took some photos off the Mezz Sec. 31 section last July, thought it look familiar. I know folks round here don't like to hear it, but I actually think the triangle looks fabulous the way it looks now. Lends the ballpark character! Has a bluecollar feel to it, much of how I always "presumed" Shea to be . . . long before I arrived there.

[IPO]

take back in the sense of taking it away from the lawless polluters who control an area of the city resembling tijuana or the slums of rio di janiero and run like it is the wild wild west.

No regard for environmental standards, building codes or work place safety.


You mean legitimate businesses entitled by law to be there who had to hire a garbage truck and clean up their own neighborhood because NYC will not provide services or has ever installed a septic sewer system who do all they can to run those people out of there just like those who tried to run Jackie Robinson out of baseball?


It is time to bring the Iron triangle into the 21st century.
Throwing these scoundrels out and cleaning it up is the first step.
No one is "ENTITLED" to be anywhere. That is the law.

The only scoundrels here are the bullies who neglected the area intentionally and Fredo who wants his Brooklyn neighborhood which was all part of this pathetic cash grab from day one.

To live in the 21st century means it's time to acknowledge they have every right to everything provided to every other community in NYC as many take for granted and they have the same right to stay as all of us do where we live.

That's the law and that's why they are on the steps of City Hall legally fighting for their livelihood.

Your fighting because you do not like the view on your way to a baseball game for three hours.

[Mongoose]

take back in the sense of taking it away from the lawless polluters who control an area of the city resembling tijuana or the slums of rio di janiero and run like it is the wild wild west.

No regard for environmental standards, building codes or work place safety.

It is time to bring the Iron triangle into the 21st century.

Throwing these scoundrels out and cleaning it up is the first step/.
No one is "ENTITLED" to be anywhere. That is the law.

Oh,dear... Are you still at it?

I wonder if you get overtime for nights and weekends?

For what it’s worth, I did a google search of “biggiesmalls” and Willets Point and came up with lots of interesting things.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22biggiesmalls%22+willets+point&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

Evidentally, hitting all the message boards on this subject 24/7 is what you do for a living. It seems everybody on all the other boards has you pegged as a shill, too:

http://queenscrap.blogspot.com/2009/03/taxpayers-remove-17-tons-of-crap-from.html

http://irontriangletracker.com/2008/10/06/city-council-plans-two-hearings-before-willets-point-vote/

You keep telling us you’re just an ordinary Mets fan, just like the rest of us, with no special interest in this issue beyond just being a simple Mets fan.

Oh, really?

You've made 137 posts on a baseball forum and not a single one on baseball!

You still haven’t explained how you know minute details of this plan before they’ve even been reported in the media.

Please explain!

[IPO]

Maybe Fredo and Jeff-R-Us should get out there and pick up the garbage when they are done walking through that rotunda that's a phony monument to honor a man who would be calling for those businesses to stay and for the Mets to go away.

Go ahead some of you, look at those people working for a living and their survival.

[BiggieSmalls]

What is your Point mongoose? Ive said that I have been interested in the topic for some time

A search of your name pulls up hundreds of posts slamming the Wilpons and not much specifically about "baseball"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22mongoose%22+wilpons&btnG=Search

You and "IPO" are two peas in a pod. If you want to discuss the topic Im happy to do that but I will not engage you further in your conspiracy theories and name calling.

[BiggieSmalls]

Maybe Fredo and Jeff-R-Us should get out there and pick up the garbage

Ive said before that I great idea would have been a Business Improvement District. Im sure the Mets as good corporate & neighborhood citizens would have contributed significantly to that had it been started 5-10 years ago

But the WP people chose to keep their area of the Iron Triangle in the condition that we find it today. And want to hold a press conference when holding a clean up day that many many commerical neighborhoods do routinely without ANY fanfare.

[IPO]

The only vendetta I have is that everyone is treated exactly the same and clearly that is not your agenda.

You can bet the man honored in that rotunda would be the first on my side.

[IPO]

Ive said before that I great idea would have been a Business Improvement District. Im sure the Mets as good corporate & neighborhood citizens would have contributed significantly to that had it been started 5-10 years ago

But the WP people chose to keep their area of the Iron Triangle in the condition that we find it today. And want to hold a press conference when holding a clean up day that many many commerical neighborhoods do routinely without ANY fanfare.

Obviously you have no idea what's gone on and only contradict yourself more when you talk about Mets and the neighborhood. Are you telling us those people decided not to let NYC pick up the garbage, provide basic services and should pay to pick up trash themselves.

Funny, but I don't see Fredo picking up the trash in front of his commercial ballpark, we pay for that too.

http://www.amny.com/news/local/am-wi...mepage-swapbox

Willets Point's last man standing defiantly
May 1, 2007

Now they realize their enemy is not only the city but the Mets.

"Since 1994, Fred Wilpon told us, 'We've co-existed with you for 40 years and we can continue to co-exist with you,' " said Richard Musick, the spokesman for the Willets Point Business Association. "But about two years ago, he stopped returning our phone calls."

Yesterday, the other shoe dropped. At a meeting with politicians at Tully Construction on Northern Boulevard, city councilman Thomas White Jr. passed along the bad news: Wilpon had changed his mind. "He said, 'The junkyards gotta go,' " White told the group.

Gee that's 1994 Fredo stopped being the good neighbor you claim he can be.

[NJTankMets]

Maybe Fredo and Jeff-R-Us should get out there and pick up the garbage

Ive said before that I great idea would have been a Business Improvement District. Im sure the Mets as good corporate & neighborhood citizens would have contributed significantly to that had it been started 5-10 years ago

But the WP people chose to keep their area of the Iron Triangle in the condition that we find it today. And want to hold a press conference when holding a clean up day that many many commerical neighborhoods do routinely without ANY fanfare.

I agree I hate Eminent Domain Abuse but they make the WP area look like hell. They are likely breaking many enviro rules, and they are likely illegally run, in that they are still acting as chop shops, and pay people under the table. If they were honest buisness they would be neat at all times and this would have never come down to the Mets wanting them out

[BiggieSmalls]

Obviously you have no idea what's gone on and only contradict yourself more when you talk about Mets and the neighborhood. Are you telling us those people decided not to let NYC pick up the garbage, provide basic services and should pay to pick up trash themselves.


I clearly said a BID would have been something the Mets would have probably been interested in supporting FIVE YEARS AGO.

Commercial establishments are required to arrange for their own private carting service.

Department of Sanitation does not service Businesses. I am sure the Mets pay for private carting services for their trash and have people on staff to clean the parking lots etc..

I refer largely tot he CONDITION OF THE STRUCTURES in the IRon Triangle. Something tells me that the generally run down condition of the structures contributes to any illegal dumping that may occur. Illegal dumping is a problem CITY WIDE and is not specific to the Iron Triangle.

Further, MANY Business Improvement Districts employ private security guards to patrol and deter illegal dumping. In fact, I have heard that the WP businesses are now employing such patrols through their WP United Group.

Unfortunately Too little too late .


Gee that's 1994 Fredo stopped being the good neighbor you claim he can be.


Lastly, Your reading comprehension is sorely deficient.

The article you quote (dated 2007) and take the time to highlight says the Mets were amicable to the Iron triangle Businesses "UNTIL ABOUT TWO YEARS AGO". Which is in line with MY Statments and not your quoted statment above that the Mets "stopped being a good neighbor in 1994"

[BiggieSmalls]

I agree I hate Eminent Domain Abuse but they make the WP area look like hell. They are likely breaking many enviro rules, and they are likely illegally run, in that they are still acting as chop shops, and pay people under the table. If they were honest buisness they would be neat at all times and this would have never come down to the Mets wanting them out

I Agree NJ -- Eminent Domain is not to be taken lightly. But the Iron triangle is a text book example of where it can, if necessary, be used to bring about positive change. At minimum the IT businesses are cheating on Employment taxes by hiring (my their own admission) 80% illegal aliens in the work force. They also severely under collect sales tax due to their insistence on CASH ONLY transactions. Not to mention their history of illegal activity regarding waste disposal, auto parts theft and mafioso corruption.

There are some honest businessmen but these are hardly the poster boys for the Chamber of Commerce.

[IPO]

I agree I hate Eminent Domain Abuse but they make the WP area look like hell. They are likely breaking many enviro rules, and they are likely illegally run, in that they are still acting as chop shops, and pay people under the table. If they were honest buisness they would be neat at all times and this would have never come down to the Mets wanting them out

The Mets want them out to make money PERIOD and they are the least honest business of all because many those people were there before baseball.

NYC neglected that neighborhood intentionally forever so people can write just what you just did.