What to key on?

[tominct]

Runner at first, does one teach to key on front foot, or back heel, or what? RH pitcher we're talking

[AgentX]

Runner at first, does one teach to key on front foot, or back heel, or what? RH pitcher we're talking

They should be watching both feet, but focused mainly on the back heel.

If the front foot moves before the back one does, it's time to go.

If the back heel moves first, time to dive back to the bag.

If you can, try to get the whole team watching for it in the dugout. Have them all yell "back!" at the same time to get used to watching.

[Jake Patterson]

Runner at first, does one teach to key on front foot, or back heel, or what? RH pitcher we're talking
I always taught to maximize the opportunity presented. Each pitcher has a defferent "tell." Most times for RH pitchers it's the back foot.

[tominct]

I teach back heel on my MS team. Our league is moving to 50/70 this year. We have had some discussions recently, some arguing that one should key the front foot, b/c an umpire won't catch it if the front foot moves first. I told them that I would work on the assumption that the umpires know the rules and have adequate eyesight. Not onlly that, but if that heel goes up he's coming over.

I will stick with the back heel.

[TG Coach]

Provided by a former pro and current college coach:

How to get a good jump off of a right-handed pitcher?

Watch the front foot, if it picks up then you are triggered to go

Chin - Pitcher's tendency is to pick up their head as they go to the plate vs. checking the runner with the head down. If you see this tendency you can steal against the chin.

Front Shoulder - Pitchers will tuck their front shoulder as they go to the plate.

How to get a good jump off of a left-handed pitcher?

Back shoulder - goes away from you then go

First move steal - Any movement by the pitcher and we are off and going hard into 2B.


Note on the chin: This doesn't mean the pitcher won't throw over. It means he probably won't. My son goes on the chin. He gets a huge jump. He's only been picked off once in three years.

[mudvnine]

Provided by a former pro and current college coach:

How to get a good jump off of a right-handed pitcher?

Watch the front foot, if it picks up then you are triggered to go

Chin - Pitcher's tendency is to pick up their head as they go to the plate vs. checking the runner with the head down. If you see this tendency you can steal against the chin.

Front Shoulder - Pitchers will tuck their front shoulder as they go to the plate.

How to get a good jump off of a left-handed pitcher?

Back shoulder - goes away from you then go

First move steal - Any movement by the pitcher and we are off and going hard into 2B.


Note on the chin: This doesn't mean the pitcher won't throw over. It means he probably won't. My son goes on the chin. He gets a huge jump. He's only been picked off once in three years.

These are all great cues and we use all of them (first time I heard of the chin, but I think it sounds excellent), but the one we are most successful with is "First move"; this works very well especially if your team pays close attention to a pitchers "look/pick tendencies" and uses them against him.

[jbolt_2000]

I was watching the MLB network the other day and they had Ricky Henderson on talking about stealing base. He said he looked at the shoulder and elbows all the time. He said he could always tell if the pitcher was going for the pick by watching the shoulder.

I am not sure if this is just a Ricky Henderson thing, or if it works for everyone. When I was younger we would look at the feet. My players aren't at the level of stealing and picking off yet so I haven't spent alot of time researching it.

[TG Coach]

Watching the chin is a tendency that has to be observed. It's like the pitcher who never takes a second look. Players should be studying pitchers instead of goofing off in the dugout.

[AgentX]

Watching the chin is a tendency that has to be observed. It's like the pitcher who never takes a second look. Players should be studying pitchers instead of goofing off in the dugout.

Amen to that.

[darbypitcher22]

I was always taught to key off of the back heel. Every now and then I'll pick up something different that a guy will use to tip his move before he goes over and I'll try to fill our runners in on it

[JR.WoodChuck]

Provided by a former pro and current college coach:

....
How to get a good jump off of a left-handed pitcher?

Back shoulder - goes away from you then go

First move steal - Any movement by the pitcher and we are off and going hard into 2B.



I am coaching my first year of kid pitch this year (9U), would someone explain in more detail the basics of stealing 2nd on a LHP? What is the idea behind "going on first movement?"
How would you start with kids new to kid pitch?

[TG Coach]

If the right shoulder moves towards third the lefty has to go home. To come towards first would be a deceptive move/balk. Other than that the runner knows the lefty is going him when he makes a move towards home. This would be when the runner can see space between the lefty's legs. If he comes to first it's a deceptive move/balk.

There's an imaginary line going from the rubber to first. If the lefty steps to the right of this line (from his view) and throws to first it's a balk. A lefty with a good move will bring his leg up right on the line almost hanging his leg there.

With only two umpires you will see a lot of cheat/balk moves. With the base umpire near second a good lefty will cheat on his first step towards first. He'll show space between his legs then come to first, stepping just inches to the illegal side of the imaginary line, then step back to the correct side with his stride towards first. Neither umpire has an angle to see it.

In 9U I doubt you're going to see many good moves. In fact, you'll probably see a lot of slow, dragging strides towards the plate. I don't like 9/10's playing with open bases. There's too much for the pitcher to concentrate on and develop without worrying about baserunners.

Teach the kids to take signals while on the base. Then get an initial lead when the pitcher gets on the rubber. When he goes to the stretch get the secondary lead. They should be on the balls of their feet and balanced, not leaning either way. Never lean down with hands on knees. On the jump punch through towards second with the left hand for momentum.

The lead should allow them to come back to the base on the back corner of the base. If they aren't diving back, the lead is too small. Let them take leads in practice where they get picked off. Have them keeping getting further off the base until they get picked off. It helps them learn how far out there they can get before it's too much.

[JR.WoodChuck]

TG Coach,

Wow, you put a lot of thought/effort in that response. I appreciate it.


Thanks
JWC

[jmart2663]

TG,


There is a 45 degree line drawn from the front corner of the pitchers rubber that would intersect with the first base path, were it drawn out that far, that the pitcher has to step into. If he steps on the home plate side of that line, BALK, if he steps on the first base side of that line all the way over to a direct line to the 1st base bag he is legal.

Jerry Martin

[TG Coach]

TG,


There is a 45 degree line drawn from the front corner of the pitchers rubber that would intersect with the first base path, were it drawn out that far, that the pitcher has to step into. If he steps on the home plate side of that line, BALK, if he steps on the first base side of that line all the way over to a direct line to the 1st base bag he is legal.

Jerry Martin

But you know with only two umpires in a high school game a lot of lefties cheat and get away with it. Neither umpire has the angle to catch it. I was never good at picking off runners beating them back to the bag. But I picked off plenty cheating and getting them leaning the wrong way.

[Ursa Major]

I too was taught to look at the back foot, but the pitcher doesn't necessarily need to raise the back foot to wheel and throw to first.

BTW, I browsed the net to look for a concise, video-based presentation of what pitchers can and cannot do, and the best source was this video clip from our own Jim Booth!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs3U4TALi4A&feature=related

[HYP]

I am coaching my first year of kid pitch this year (9U), would someone explain in more detail the basics of stealing 2nd on a LHP? What is the idea behind "going on first movement?"
How would you start with kids new to kid pitch?


Good lefty move is hard to read. If you wait to go until you know he is going home you will have a terrible jump.

Going on first move you are hoping to get a good enough jump that even if he picks over you will be able to beat the 1st basemans throw to 2nd.

[Freestate]

I am somewhat confused by the cue that says for a RHP, go on front foot movement. A RHP out of the stretch, can lift his front (left) foot, pivot, and step & throw toward 1B so long as his foot comes straight up and doesn't move toward the plate. If this is correct, then looking at front foot movement doesn't seem to be a good cue. What am I missing here?

[AgentX]

I am somewhat confused by the cue that says for a RHP, go on front foot movement. A RHP out of the stretch, can lift his front (left) foot, pivot, and step & throw toward 1B so long as his foot comes straight up and doesn't move toward the plate. If this is correct, then looking at front foot movement doesn't seem to be a good cue. What am I missing here?

Don't you think that would be less effective than just delivering the pitch and letting the catcher throw down?

[wogdoggy]

I am somewhat confused by the cue that says for a RHP, go on front foot movement. A RHP out of the stretch, can lift his front (left) foot, pivot, and step & throw toward 1B so long as his foot comes straight up and doesn't move toward the plate. If this is correct, then looking at front foot movement doesn't seem to be a good cue. What am I missing here?

if the pitcher slides or keeps his front foot an inch or two off the ground and throws directly to first you might get picked..if the pitcher picks his front foot up more than a few inches or so..he has to go home

the pitcher can throw directly to first without disengauging the rubber,as long as his lead foot goes directly to first ..its a judgement call..if the rhander lifts his front leg without going directly to first he'd better deliver the pitch

[Freestate]

if the pitcher slides or keeps his front foot an inch or two off the ground and throws directly to first you might get picked..if the pitcher picks his front foot up more than a few inches or so..he has to go home

the pitcher can throw directly to first without disengauging the rubber,as long as his lead foot goes directly to first ..its a judgement call..if the rhander lifts his front leg without going directly to first he'd better deliver the pitch

I frequently see pickoff moves that involve the left foot coming straight up in a high kick, and then a pivot & throw to 1B. Is this patently a balk, or is it more nuanced and subject to interpretation? The move I described is never called a balk in our league (13U).

[wogdoggy]

I frequently see pickoff moves that involve the left foot coming straight up in a high kick, and then a pivot & throw to 1B. Is this patently a balk, or is it more nuanced and subject to interpretation? The move I described is never called a balk in our league (13U).

i'd call it a balk all day..he must go directly to the base..if he lifts his leg too high he has to go home with it..if he swings its toward first withoout lifting it up he's ok in my judgement..again its all a judgement call

[wogdoggy]

I frequently see pickoff moves that involve the left foot coming straight up in a high kick, and then a pivot & throw to 1B. Is this patently a balk, or is it more nuanced and subject to interpretation? The move I described is never called a balk in our league (13U).

the "high" kick MAKES it a balk..he must go directly to first with his lead leg by swinging it to first UNLESS he is disengaged from the rubber

[HYP]

Here would be my question. How does a RHP step directly at first base to throw? If he is in the traditional set position. The first move with his left foot can't be to first base. That is why the rear heel will pop up in order to allow him to turn.

Here is the rule.

(c) The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base;
Rule 8.05(c) Comment: Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk

[AgentX]

That was the point I was trying to make.

In order to pivot throw to first, he's either got to pivot toward second (which requires another 2 steps), or he's got to make that step backward before trying to pivot and throw.

If there's pivot prior to the weight falling on that foot, it's a balk. If there's not, then you STILL are throwing behind the runner, but not as quickly or accurately as you would by throwing to the catcher.

[HYP]

I am somewhat confused by the cue that says for a RHP, go on front foot movement. A RHP out of the stretch, can lift his front (left) foot, pivot, and step & throw toward 1B so long as his foot comes straight up and doesn't move toward the plate. If this is correct, then looking at front foot movement doesn't seem to be a good cue. What am I missing here?

If a RHP left foot comes up, he must go to the plate. If he doesn't then it would be considered a deceptive move.

8.05
If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when --
(a) The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery;
Rule 8.05(a) Comment: If a lefthanded or righthanded pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher’s rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter except to throw to second base on a pick-off-play. (b) The pitcher, while touching his plate, feints a throw to first base and fails to complete the throw;
(c) The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base;
Rule 8.05(c) Comment: Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk.
A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps. It is possible, with runners on first and third, for the pitcher to step toward third and not throw, merely to bluff the runner back to third; then seeing the runner on first start for second, turn and step toward and throw to first base. This is legal. However, if, with runners on first and third, the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, steps toward third and then immediately and in practically the same motion “wheels” and throws to first base, it is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk. Of course, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and then makes such a move, it is not a balk.
(d) The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play;

[tominct]

This has been a good discussion, I learned some things, cool!

[AltaLomaStorm]

A few minor things to add...with the lefty, when he lifts his right leg and brings it back to the rubber (or past his right leg) he must go home. But remember, not all umps are in a position to see this when there are only two. I think this was mentioned earlier.

And we teach when diving back into first base to turn their head toward the right field line. It protects their face from the ball and puts them in a good position to see if the ball gets by the first baseman.

We have also taught the first basemen to occasionally land on top of the diving runner (and take his sweet time getting up) when the first baseman dives trying to stop an errant throw that gets by him...but that is a whole other discussion...:D

[wogdoggy]

A few minor things to add...with the lefty, when he lifts his right leg and brings it back to the rubber (or past his right leg) he must go home. But remember, not all umps are in a position to see this when there are only two. I think this was mentioned earlier.

And we teach when diving back into first base to turn their head toward the right field line. It protects their face from the ball and puts them in a good position to see if the ball gets by the first baseman.

We have also taught the first basemen to occasionally land on top of the diving runner (and take his sweet time getting up) when the first baseman dives trying to stop an errant throw that gets by him...but that is a whole other discussion...:D

I had a lefty that i worked with,,taught him a sneaky move which gets the best of every first base coach especially with only 1 ump..i would have him ever so slightly crank his lead ankle back.this gives the runner the idea he broke the plane and takes off...dead meat..the plate ump cant pick up the motion most the time.

[TG Coach]

We have also taught the first basemen to occasionally land on top of the diving runner (and take his sweet time getting up) when the first baseman dives trying to stop an errant throw that gets by him...but that is a whole other discussion...:D

Along with teaching the base runner how to interfere with the first baseman so the throw goes up the right field line ....:D This is more advanced stuff for older kids.