Need Help with Son's Timing Issue

[NewbieBBDad]

Could you some advice on how to solve my son's timing issue. He just triggers his swing way too late every time now. He used to be too much of a pull hitter, now he's gone the opposite extreme.

I think it's mental but I don't know what if any cues or advice I can give to have him start his swing earlier. Thanks all!

[rkbenn]

Could you some advice on how to solve my son's timing issue. He just triggers his swing way too late every time now. He used to be too much of a pull hitter, now he's gone the opposite extreme.

I think it's mental but I don't know what if any cues or advice I can give to have him start his swing earlier. Thanks all!

Without looking at a clip, I'd be willing to guess that he get disconnected and takes the butt of the bat at the ball, and may have some drag. My son did the same thing and I thought it was timing. He would pull the ball foul or miss...late, so I thought.

[StraightGrain11]

How old is he? If it's a "timing issue" (in your case, being "late") it's something he's going to have to figure out for himself, it's a personal adjustment he is going to have to make on his own...and the only way he is going to be able to figure this out is a lot of trial and a lot of error. If it truly is a timing issue, do front toss with him. ALLOW him to get HIS timing down. As he gets better and becomes more consistent = more confident, back up. As he becomes more consistent (confident) with the distance, then increase the speed. Hitting is about confidence. Hitters are best when they are most confident in what they are doing. The best way to gain confidence is by succeeding and accomplishing - REGARDLESS of how small or easy the task/drill may be.

If the issue is a mechanical one (disconnection as rkbenn believes), then you have something else to address. rkbenn, you may be right about the disconnection, and as you said, without film it is impossible to tell, but do not confuse a mechanical issue with a timing issue - they are not the same. I'm not saying mechanics don't effect timing, I'm saying don't assume mechanics are the CAUSE of bad timing. Hitting a baseball is difficult - mainly due to the timing aspect. However, a player can still have solid swing mechanics and just not have his timing down yet - especially if they are young or a beginner.

[LAball]

If he is hitting to opposite field he may not be swing very hard, trying to make sure he's getting contact.

[Ursa Major]

Again, without knowing his age or skill level and without seeing a clip, it's hard to diagnose. One common issue is something that Virg captured brilliantly. When young, kids can break down hitting into four components achieved in this order: "Watch -> decide -> stride -> swing." Once the pitching gets faster, you'll be late on everything if you approach it that way. You have to adapt to a two-step approach of "Stride?watch -> Decide/swing". If they're waiting until they decide to swing before starting their stride, they're cooked. Fin a cue that gets him in the mode of starting his load and stride every pitch, and that every pitch is a strike and will be hit unless and until he aborts the swing because he realizes that it is not a strike.

[skipper5]

Timing is the no. 1 aspect of hitting a baseball.

Yet, you won't find much written about it on this or other boards because it's hard to analyze or teach or talk about. Virg is one of the few posters who obsesses about timing.

Think about it from the pitching-coach perspective. We want to induce DOUBT in the batter. It disrupts timing. Doubt adds 5-10 ft. to a pitcher's fastball and steals a few milleseconds away from the batters ability to crush a hittable fastball.

Now, put on your hitting coach hat. The batter is habitually late. Is he getting his stride foot down? Yes? Then look at DOUBT. Only when you've exhausted your investigation of doubt, should you then further look at mechanics.

IMO, if your son is getting his front foot down in time to get his hands through (mechanics) , yet he is habitually late against pitching that isn't overpowering, something is causing doubt in his mind that causes him to be a split-second late in triggering his swing.

Sorry to say, it could be one of a lot of things, including a third base coach who grimaces every time he swings at a 'bad' pitch, or an old-world grandma in the stands who exclaims, "Mama mia, thata ball was over your head!" (actual quote)

A reasonably athletic 12 yr old with an ugly bat-dragging swing should be able to regularly dump base hits to right field if he is brimming with confidence and doesn't have a doubt in the world.

[bronxkid]

get his eyes checked. I coached a kid in Little League who was a great batter one year and the next he could't see the ball and was late all the time. Got himself some glasses and went on a tear afterwards.

[virg]

Zero-in on a capable pitcher working out with a catcher, in the heat of a workout. Take the kid and an audio recorder up close enough to hear and identify the sounds of 1. the stride foot landing, 2. the flick of fingertips off the ball 3. the pop of the catcher's mitt. Ask the kid to memorize that while exhaling a shallow breath, starting 'lazy' as the pitcher shows his butt and ending 'past' the pop of the mitt. This is the framework the hitting motions happen within. Identify 1,2, and 3, memorize and audio-record it too.

With that recording he can rehearse and adjust his swing anytime at home. It is true there'll be discrepancy about the mitt pop between fastball/ breaking pitch, but that's what eyes, hands, and reflexes are for. The swing is a dance with a pitcher, and the recorder will play the tune. Capable pitchers 'sound' about alike and it's easily proved. If one should turn up who is otherwise, that's what homework in the dugout is for. I would be playing that exhaling game all through a game: I still do it sometimes watching TV (73) (and company often wonders what the old sob is growling and grunting about).

[virg]

..........

If the issue is a mechanical one (disconnection as rkbenn believes), then you have something else to address. rkbenn, you may be right about the disconnection, and as you said, without film it is impossible to tell, but do not confuse a mechanical issue with a timing issue - they are not the same. I'm not saying mechanics don't effect timing, I'm saying don't assume mechanics are the CAUSE of bad timing. Hitting a baseball is difficult - mainly due to the timing aspect. However, a player can still have solid swing mechanics and just not have his timing down yet - especially if they are young or a beginner.

S-G, it couldn't be said better!

[AgentX]

If he was a pull hitter before, he may have corrected for it by adding more time to his load. Moving on to faster pitching, he may be having trouble getting it out.

If he's popping up or hitting weak flies, then he's probably dropping his front shoulder.

Hard to tell without seeing.

[NewbieBBDad]

I'll work on getting a recent video up. Thanks for all the replies!

[NewbieBBDad]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3622/3326386684_10da3a941a.jpg?v=0http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3622/3326386684_10da3a941a.jpg?v=0http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3624/3326386722_0b0e94e56c.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3573/3326386642_027a605488.jpg?v=0http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3611/3325549515_9f79188c35.jpg?v=0http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3608/3326386662_ce9ec8ed01.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3575/3325549537_d071e0d157.jpg?v=0

Your thoughts and opinions are appreciated. :waving

P.S. What I see is a problem with this left arm staying unbent and stiff throughout the swing. He doesn't torque the bat with this left arm/hand which why the bat head stays so far back and the ball goes to opposite field. His arms also seem to push at the ball and extend too far to the pitcher.

[NewbieBBDad]

bump for advice!

[AgentX]

He got the bat trapped behind his head. He's gonna have it drag and will end up behind the ball on faster pitches.

Have him try keeping the bat more vertical so he can get his hands to the ball faster.

[Swing Coach]

Please do not change where he starts the bat. It is in a great position, not unlike every mlb player. I think his problem is his lack of getting his elbow down into the "slot" early and allowing his barrel to drop into the swing plane early on. His hands are way ahead of his body. Hard to explain..but look at these:64029


His swing is more like the minor-leaguer (bottom right) and my guess is that it enters the swing plane even more foreward. This causes him to hit in a small zone, unlike the mlb hitters.

SC

[skipper5]

The OP says the boy used to be to pull too much, now he's way too late, and dad thinks it's mental.

But most people here want to talk about mechanics. Ask an orthopedist and he'll give you an orthopedic solution. To me, he needs a "neurologist"

If the boy is facing pitching that is much faster than he used to see, then a mechanical explanation is more likely.

If not, then IMO you have to ask, what is happening mentally to cause him to go from one extreme to the other in terms of getting the bat into the zone at the right time? (assuming that he gets his stride foot down).

Newbie, as a personal favor to me, please stare at his stride foot for 20-30 live-pitch swings and see if he's getting it down in time to allow him to trigger his swing. If he isn't, fix it. If he is, forget selectivity for a while and stress agressiveness until he gets his timing back. Don't concentrate on results. Look for the process.

[NewbieBBDad]

Thanks for all the replies, it is appreciated.

After looking at these pictures, I decided to focus on the mechanics and not the mental timing aspect. I reviewed his arm positions at contact with MLB batters like Albert Pujols below.

I think the problem is his casting at the ball, i.e. the throwing of his hands at the ball, instead of torquing it. It's clear from the photos that his hands reach the ball in plenty of time even on 75 mph cages. But the barrel is lagging behind. (That's why I don't think it's mental anymore.)

There's a number of possible fixes like a lighter, smaller bat, changing the starting bat position. But I didn't like them because it wouldn't address his casting at the ball.

Now I know not everyone believes in torquing but as a short term cue to my son it seemed appropriate to try. So I asked him to keep rotating the torso through the swing, pull his front shoulder back as it rounds in order to pull his front arm closer to the body and have his hand/forearms torque the bat.

The other thing was to have him approach the ball with a bent front arm to keep the swing path shorter. And keep it bent at contact to keep him from extending it into the ball.

I told him to try all this out yesterday during his team practice. I didn't expect quick results but amazingly he was consistently smashing line drive rockets to the 200 ft mark (on a fly). What was best was his attitude really changed, that he felt he could do better.

The balls thrown weren't fast so I'll take him out to the cages again tonight and film him to see if his mechanics really have changed and if so by how much and I'll post it again.

P.S. Yes, Swing Coach I like his bat position at start too. I was worried for awhile but doesn't seem to bother him so I'll leave it alone.

[HYP]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3622/3326386684_10da3a941a.jpg?v=0http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3622/3326386684_10da3a941a.jpg?v=0http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3624/3326386722_0b0e94e56c.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3573/3326386642_027a605488.jpg?v=0http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3611/3325549515_9f79188c35.jpg?v=0http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3608/3326386662_ce9ec8ed01.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3575/3325549537_d071e0d157.jpg?v=0

Your thoughts and opinions are appreciated. :waving

P.S. What I see is a problem with this left arm staying unbent and stiff throughout the swing. He doesn't torque the bat with this left arm/hand which why the bat head stays so far back and the ball goes to opposite field. His arms also seem to push at the ball and extend too far to the pitcher.

Based on the photos. I see bat drag with a push to the ball at the end. This is what I would consider "wrapping" the bat.

The bat doesn't start in a bad position/wrapped. But he gets it started through shoulder rotation which drags it around. Look in the 5th picture. His hips and shoulders are completely turned facing the pitcher but the barrel is still well behind him. At that time he feels the need to get to the ball because he realizes he will be late. He then starts to push to the ball with his upperbody and hands. Creating a weak hit to the right side.

My suggestion would be to get the hands involved earlier, with less shoulder rotation. Try to get him use to just whipping the bat around his hands. Once he can feel this he will be able to keep his shoulders closed longer and get the barrel out quicker. He will no longer feel the need to push to the ball. He will be able to maintain the bat speed through the ball.

HYP

[pastime00]

Funny, I was just going to post a 'timing' thread/question.

Last year, my kid, 9 yrs old was killing the ball in LL (AAA) and final part of travel ball leading into LL season (two Feb. tournaments), then, just one day out of the blue, (after not making all-stars) this past July, he went to the cages and just couldn't hit. Vanished. Timing was all off. This from a kid that would go from the #2 cage (60 mph) and then to practice hitting change ups, go to the #6 cage (35 mph). He'd CRUSH both cages. 12 yr olds were amazed.

He could hit the 200 ft fence OCCASIONALLY on the fly, or one or two short hops (which I liked).

Now? Since tournaments started, huge slump, then maybe 1 big hit a tournament. Most hits are weak outs to 2nd base. I can't remember the last hard hit to the SS ... or even weak one.

Last night was first practice at cages for team. I've been working his hands. Anyway, he'd get some good licks in the first 2-3 pitches, then just occasionally get one after that. That was the #2 cage..then he'd go down to the #6 cage and barely make contact. HORRIBLE timing.

Now everytime people see him swing, they are in awe of his swing. leaving the cages yesterday, some teens were telling him 'great swing' etc... but the hard contact was not consistent.

His eyes seem fine.

1) Could be mechanical and I work with that as I now have Rightviewpro.
2) Could be timing...waiting for heel drop trigger too long
3) Mental.

So, what drills are there to MAKE him time things better? Soft toss while mixing in bounced soft toss? Soft toss from behind him?

[mightylakers]

I see he's lunging forward. He needs to stay back and let the ball comes to him.


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3622/3326386684_10da3a941a.jpg?v=0http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3622/3326386684_10da3a941a.jpg?v=0http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3624/3326386722_0b0e94e56c.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3573/3326386642_027a605488.jpg?v=0http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3611/3325549515_9f79188c35.jpg?v=0http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3608/3326386662_ce9ec8ed01.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3575/3325549537_d071e0d157.jpg?v=0

Your thoughts and opinions are appreciated. :waving

P.S. What I see is a problem with this left arm staying unbent and stiff throughout the swing. He doesn't torque the bat with this left arm/hand which why the bat head stays so far back and the ball goes to opposite field. His arms also seem to push at the ball and extend too far to the pitcher.

[Ursa Major]

I think you and Hyp and Swing Coach are all on the same page here ... so let me put it in more technical terms, bringing in my own experience with Ursa Minor. What makes the bathead turn is the movement of the hands in a circular path and the law of conservation of angular momentum. This is why hitters can literally stop their hands before the ball arrives but the bat whipping around still generates power as long as the hands got to that position in an arc.

What kills the angular momentum is if -- at the end -- the hands stop moving in an arc and continue straight to the pitcher, resulting in what I call a "super bunt". A good swing will result at the point of contact in a straight line from front elbow to hands to the end of the bat, like in the Pujols picture. By contrast, your son's bat at POC is almost at a right angle to his forearms.

If you look at this type of "pushed hands" swing in slo motion, it looks for most of the swing like he's got the pitch timed; heck, he probably is sure he's got it timed. BUT... then it's like the bathead took a timeout for a frame and stops turning as the hands push forward. That one frame is a killer -- he'll be late. And it's no answer to just stay, "start the swing earlier"; that just gets you a grounder to the second baseman.

Two things (or more) need to happen. He's got to continue his body action so that the hands can continue around in that arc. And, he's got to get that right arm's influence in the swing lessened. For starters, I'd use bottom arm swings and deep-in-the-zone tee hitting and soft toss hitting. Maybe work on the "left handed karate chop to the head of the giant third base coach" cue. He's got a good setup, so if he can work past this glitch, he'll probably be pretty good. But ... need .... some .... video.

[NewbieBBDad]

Here is my plan to correct my son's hitch:

I'm having him hit the ball off the tee positioned closer to the catcher than normal and trying to force him to pull it. I figure in a real game any effect I get will be lessened, sort of a over correct to get back to normal.

In order for him to pull it, I told him try and torque the bat with his left arm/hand. It gives him a bit of a chicken wing effect so I also told him to keep his upper body rotating through contact. You cannot see it in the pics above but his upper body tends to stop rotating at contact. The reason he needs to do this is to give his left arm space/a path to follow so there is less of a chicken wing.

So far the results are mixed. Sometimes he pulls but with no power. With power, there is less pull. The good thing I can visually see is his upper body is now rotating through contact (I can see te number on his back clearly now). The hand torquing will definitely take longer to develop.

Well, he has his first scrimmage game tonight vs. the team with the fastest pitcher in the league so we'll see how it goes.

[HYP]

Here is my plan to correct my son's hitch:

I'm having him hit the ball off the tee positioned closer to the catcher than normal and trying to force him to pull it. I figure in a real game any effect I get will be lessened, sort of a over correct to get back to normal.

In order for him to pull it, I told him try and torque the bat with his left arm/hand. It gives him a bit of a chicken wing effect so I also told him to keep his upper body rotating through contact. You cannot see it in the pics above but his upper body tends to stop rotating at contact. The reason he needs to do this is to give his left arm space/a path to follow so there is less of a chicken wing.

So far the results are mixed. Sometimes he pulls but with no power. With power, there is less pull. The good thing I can visually see is his upper body is now rotating through contact (I can see te number on his back clearly now). The hand torquing will definitely take longer to develop.

Well, he has his first scrimmage game tonight vs. the team with the fastest pitcher in the league so we'll see how it goes.

Have you ever tried focusing on the back side? getting the power from the back side, not the front?

IMO if you are front side dominate, you will be pulling the bat. If you are pulling the bat through with the front side you are dragging it. If you are dragging it no amount of rotation through contact will get you there on time. Unless you guess right, start early and don't have to make any adjustments. Not very practical.

Think backside dominance. Stay with the back leg. Drive the rear hip out of the way with the rear leg. allow the top hand to control the "torquing" of the bat. Let the front leg catch the swing.

HYP

[NewbieBBDad]

Have you ever tried focusing on the back side? getting the power from the back side, not the front?

IMO if you are front side dominate, you will be pulling the bat. If you are pulling the bat through with the front side you are dragging it. If you are dragging it no amount of rotation through contact will get you there on time. Unless you guess right, start early and don't have to make any adjustments. Not very practical.

Think backside dominance. Stay with the back leg. Drive the rear hip out of the way with the rear leg. allow the top hand to control the "torquing" of the bat. Let the front leg catch the swing.

HYP
His power all backside or lower body. You can see in his pics that his back foot lifts off the ground at contact. Was a good thought though. I am beginning to think he needs more upper body work.

[HYP]

His power all backside or lower body. You can see in his pics that his back foot lifts off the ground at contact. Was a good thought though. I am beginning to think he needs more upper body work.

I agree with the upperbody work. That is what I would focus on most. My focus would be on the top hand. JMHO

Good Luck

[NewbieBBDad]

I agree with the upperbody work. That is what I would focus on most. My focus would be on the top hand. JMHO

Good Luck
Top hand? I was thinking bottom hand. Top hand seems to leading the way and bottom hand just follows. I was thinking the bottom hand needs to lead the top to a circular path and the left arm needs to work on staying bent.

Sorry for the quick replies, busy at work atm ;)

[Swing Coach]

I think ursa is on the right track........look at the albert still...he is right about the angle of his front arm compared to the boy......but look at Albert's bottom elbow "in the slot" c ompared to this kid. Albert is staying "inside" the ball. I believe eeping this elbow in is how you maintain the circular path that Ursa is talking about.

SC