Giving the umpire a hard time

[skipper5]

---With respect to coaching teenagers in competitive summer baseball in double-elim. tournaments where the goal is to win.

---The umpires are seasoned, paid adults.

I will be having a Code of Conduct for the parents this year. I am considering including the following in the Code:

Coaching and Umpires:
As a coach, I recognize rewards and risks associated w/ expressing "displeasure" with an umpire's decisions.

Rewards of questioning umpires' decisions:
(a) blow off steam
(b) put pressure on the ump for make-up calls

Risks of questioning umpires' decision::
The players become focused on events beyond their control--and alibi their performance-- which is the exact opposite of the short-memory and resilience that a good baseball coach is trying to inculcate in WINNING baseball players. By far, a coach wins more games--and builds the right kind of character-- by keeping his mouth shut and his players focused. It's less about the Golden Rule than it is about modeling an attitude that allows the players to excel and to WIN baseball games

[Ursa Major]

Very, nicely expressed. (And this is coming from someone who writes for a living...) I've long felt this but never articulated it so well.

One thing I've learned from taking videos of thousands of batters receiving pitches over the last few years is how deceiving appearances can be from the stands. Sure, the dugouts often can see whether an ump has blown a high/low call because they've got a profile view, but fans can't.

The biggest error made by complaining parents is judging the correctness of the call based on where the ball is received. We played one team a couple years ago and it seemed liked their pitchers were always getting great 'low strike' calls. After looking at videos, I realized that their catcher just set up very deep, so he was scooping what accurately were called strikes out of the dirt, but parents were grumbling at the umpire, assuming those pitches were low. I think it helps to explain this to parents.

[TG Coach]

The biggest error made by complaining parents is judging the correctness of the call based on where the ball is received.

Parent: Looks like a strike from here.

Umpire: That's why they make me call it from over here.

[AgentX]

I tell players and parents that umpiring is like the weather.

You can't control it, you can't change it, and complaining about it just makes you look silly.

Learning to adapt to rainy, sunny, dark, hot or cold conditions is all part of the game. So is learning to adapt to an umpire's strike zone.

[Baseball gLove]

One parent on my son's scout team continuously questioned the blue's calls. The blue finally had enough and offered his clicker to the parent. The parent's response: "Are you kidding? I would be horrible and you are doing a better job than I ever could." The blue laughed.

[Rufus67]

The thing I tell my players is that there are about a million things going on during a baseball game, maybe 5 of which you have control over (umpires not being one of those 5). You can either get worked up over the million or concentrate on the 5, but one is a lot better and effective use of time/effort than the other.

[skipper5]

Let's use an example:

15u, must-win game, lose and go home for the season.

one run game, late innings, and the first base umpire calls your runner out even though a full step ahead of the throw (think Cards/KC, '85 WS)

you're the mgr. and coaching first base as well

your pre-season/pre-game speech included words (we don't sweat what we can't control)

now, as 1B coach/mgr., what are your actions?


Me? Shrug shoulders, wince, groan out loud, turn away, walk 4 steps towards fence, turn towards next batter, clap hands, "Come-on neow.."

BTW, most of the team parents think I'm out of my mind for not kicking up a storm of some sort. But I want to win. I want my darned players to turn the page.

NOTE: Respondents are forbidden from impugning my manhood. (or criticizing my choice of pocketbook)

[AgentX]

Let's use an example:

15u, must-win game, lose and go home for the season.

one run game, late innings, and the first base umpire calls your runner out even though a full step ahead of the throw (think Cards/KC, '85 WS)

you're the mgr. and coaching first base as well

your pre-season/pre-game speech included words (we don't sweat what we can't control)

now, as 1B coach/mgr., what are your actions?

Me? Shrug shoulders, groan out loud, turn away, walk 4 steps towards fence, turn towards next batter, clap hands, "Come-on neow.."

BTW, most of the team parents think I'm out of my mind for not kicking up a storm of some sort. But I want to win. I want my darned players to turn the page.
I respectfully disagree.

I think in that situation you HAVE to at least protest the call, and get the 2nd up to either hold it ump or overrule it.

If you don't, you're sending the message to your players that they're not worth fighting for. You don't have to get in the ump's face, but you DO have to question the call.

Your players need to learn to turn the page regardless. Your questioning the call will help them find closure. If the call stands after review, then you can lead your team by example in shrugging it off and telling them to move on.

If anything, this may give them some motivation to seek vindication. This might give them the pumping up they need to turn it around.

Doing nothing does just that. Nothing.

[darivero]

Never put yourself in a position where the umpire (referee) determines the outcome of the game....Don Shula

[skipper5]

AgentX,

I should have made it a half-a-step, but I like your response. Now we're getting somewhere.

But I don't protest judgment calls. You want to be safe? Make your own luck and line it somewhere into the outfield.

skipper

[skipper5]

I respectfully disagree.

I think in that situation you HAVE to at least protest the call, and get the 2nd up to either hold it ump or overrule it.

If you don't, you're sending the message to your players that they're not worth fighting for. You don't have to get in the ump's face, but you DO have to question the call.

Your players need to learn to turn the page regardless. Your questioning the call will help them find closure. If the call stands after review, then you can lead your team by example in shrugging it off and telling them to move on.

If anything, this may give them some motivation to seek vindication. This might give them the pumping up they need to turn it around.

Doing nothing does just that. Nothing.

AgentX,
I've got ask you buddy, you would actually attempt to appeal a judgment call to the other B.U.? The umpires might cut you slack if you go off on the umpire-in-question for a minute, but you lose all credibility if you try to appeal this play. My audience, as you know, is my own players.

And I didn't do "Nothing". I shrugged, winced, etc., packed my cheek, and put the cannister back into my pocket (book).
skip

[AgentX]

I don't protest judgment calls.
When you get right down to it, aren't ALL calls judgment calls? ;)

If there are two umps on the field, one may have had a better view of it. I can live with whatever they decide after comparing notes. I can't live with wondering what might have been.

[AgentX]

AgentX,
I've got ask you buddy, you would actually attempt to appeal a judgment call to the other B.U.? The umpires might cut you slack if you go off on the umpire-in-question for a minute, but you lose all credibility if you try to appeal this play. My audience, as you know, is my own players.

I've seen these calls successfully appealed (sorry for the poor choice of words). Sometimes, a BU will have his view obscured and will be happy to defer to the PU. IME, when you've got just two guys covering the whole field, they tend to recognize that they can't always get it right.

If you've got more BUs on the field, then your chances go down, but there isn't any one in your dugout who is going to fault you for trying.

[jbooth]

I respectfully disagree.

I think in that situation you HAVE to at least protest the call, and get the 2nd up to either hold it ump or overrule it.

If you don't, you're sending the message to your players that they're not worth fighting for. You don't have to get in the ump's face, but you DO have to question the call.

Your players need to learn to turn the page regardless. Your questioning the call will help them find closure. If the call stands after review, then you can lead your team by example in shrugging it off and telling them to move on.

If anything, this may give them some motivation to seek vindication. This might give them the pumping up they need to turn it around.

Doing nothing does just that. Nothing.

It might help you if you knew the rules, and something about what umpires are taught in their training camps.

First; By RULE, no umpire can change another ump's call, UNLESS the umpire who made the call agrees to get help and then decides HIMSELF whether or not, to change the call after having conferred with another ump.

Second; umps are taught not to change JUDGMENT calls even if they know they blew the call. If the ump was in position and saw everything that happened, the call is final. An ump MAY ask for help IF, it is possible that something happened on the play that he didn't see, (such as a drop of a ball after a tag where the ump making the call, didn't see it come out and then get picked up.)

Third; Umps are taught, NEVER to make "make up" calls. If you blew it, just move on. If you do a "make up" it just looks like you missed two calls instead of one, and now the team that received the "make up", not knowing it was a "make up" will want you to "make up" that one.

Fourth; a good ump knows when he blew a call, and doesn't need you to tell him. Plus, in many situations the ump is right and only the fans think he was wrong. It's funny how nobody ever remotely considers the fact that, just possibly THEY were wrong, and the ump was right.

Fifth; continually chirping at an ump, and/or bugging him more than about 30 seconds after a disputed call, does NOT help your cause. Personally, your chirping just distracts me from concentrating on what I'm trying to do. If you want an ump to concentrate more than you thought he was, then SHUT UP, so he can concentrate.

[jbooth]

When you get right down to it, aren't ALL calls judgment calls? ;)

If there are two umps on the field, one may have had a better view of it. I can live with whatever they decide after comparing notes. I can't live with wondering what might have been.

As I stated to you in another post. Another ump is NOT ALLOWED to over-rule the original call. And, FYI it pisses an ump off when you go directly to another ump and ask him to over-rule his partner.

Umps are taught to support each other, and your act of asking one ump to over-rule his partner is not wise. That ump is not going to do anything. By rule and by ump-to-ump etiquette, he's going to ignore you.

And no, not all calls are judgment calls. If a ball bounces over the fence, the rules say all runners get two bases. If an ump awards runners something different, THAT is rule violation and IS protestable, and the ump SHOULD get help from his partner(s). But, and out or safe call is a judgment call that is final when the ump who made it says it's final, and there is no appeal or protest that can be made, by rule.

[jbooth]

I've seen these calls successfully appealed (sorry for the poor choice of words). Sometimes, a BU will have his view obscured and will be happy to defer to the PU. IME, when you've got just two guys covering the whole field, they tend to recognize that they can't always get it right.

If you've got more BUs on the field, then your chances go down, but there isn't any one in your dugout who is going to fault you for trying.

Sure, there are situations where an ump can, or may want to check with his partners, but they are few and far between, and if you frequently ask an ump to get help, you're not going to stay on their good side.

Bottom line in all my posts to you so far is; the more you bug umps, the more likely it will be, that things will go for the other team more often than for you. If you develop a reputation among umpires as a coach that's always complaining, you aren't helping yourself. Umps are much more likely to listen carefully to the coach who comes out once in a blue moon to complain, than to the guy who comes out on every other call. You get on the unwritten "just ignore him" list.

[AgentX]

It might help you if you knew the rules, and something about what umpires are taught in their training camps.

First; By RULE, no umpire can change another ump's call, UNLESS the umpire who made the call agrees to get help and then decides HIMSELF whether or not, to change the call after having conferred with another ump.

Second; umps are taught not to change JUDGMENT calls even if they know they blew the call. If the ump was in position and saw everything that happened, the call is final. An ump MAY ask for help IF, it is possible that something happened on the play that he didn't see, (such as a drop of a ball after a tag where the ump making the call, didn't see it come out and then get picked up.)

Third; Umps are taught, NEVER to make "make up" calls. If you blew it, just move on. If you do a "make up" it just looks like you missed two calls instead of one, and now the team that received the "make up", not knowing it was a "make up" will want you to "make up" that one.

Fourth; a good ump knows when he blew a call, and doesn't need you to tell him. Plus, in many situations the ump is right and only the fans think he was wrong. It's funny how nobody ever remotely considers the fact that, just possibly THEY were wrong, and the ump was right.

Fifth; continually chirping at an ump, and/or bugging him more than about 30 seconds after a disputed call, does NOT help your cause. Personally, your chirping just distracts me from concentrating on what I'm trying to do. If you want an ump to concentrate more than you thought he was, then SHUT UP, so he can concentrate.

I'm not arguing any of those points. I'm saying I've seen those calls appealed, and I've seen them overturned.

Umpires are human too. And while it's swell to assume that ALL umpires are schooled as you believe, most of those I've encountered are not exactly "professionals." You yourself say "a good ump knows..." but you can also just as easily claim that good umps don't blow calls.

And umpires do. And they know they do.

I've heard stories from umpires who were DYING to have a call appealed so they could overturn it, but couldn't because the coach wouldn't appeal.

Besides, I'm not saying that a coach should be appealing every call. Just as it is in the NFL, a coach should choose his battles, and gather whatever respect he can from blue should the moment arise when he needs to leverage it.

If the ump knows you, and knows you're not a PITA who appeals everything, then he may well consider your suggestion. That's all.

[Jake Patterson]

They ONLY time a good coach is on the field questioning anything is when a ruling is called into question. In 25 years I have never seen an ump change a call. I have had them discuss a rule and put a runner back on based on a rule.

[AgentX]

Sure, there are situations where an ump can, or may want to check with his partners, but they are few and far between, and if you frequently ask an ump to get help, you're not going to stay on their good side.

Bottom line in all my posts to you so far is; the more you bug umps, the more likely it will be, that things will go for the other team more often than for you. If you develop a reputation among umpires as a coach that's always complaining, you aren't helping yourself. Umps are much more likely to listen carefully to the coach who comes out once in a blue moon to complain, than to the guy who comes out on every other call. You get on the unwritten "just ignore him" list.
Agreed.

The situation was "must-win game," presumably playoffs or tourney. If there ever was a time to spend that capital you've built up from being level-headed all season, it's then.

[CoachW]

Agent, I agree that if it was an obvious missed call then you need to go talk about it, but I also agree you should never ask the other umpire to over rule the call. There are ways to make your point without disrespecting the umpire, once you disrepect them, then you have crossed the line. Jim is also correct that there are times when the umpire knows they missed the call, it happens!!! They are human. They key is to never show them up, you can talk to them the next inning between innings, or you can go out there and talk with them without screaming, but show some class and do it the right way.

CoachW

[jbooth]

I'm not arguing any of those points. I'm saying I've seen those calls appealed, and I've seen them overturned.

Umpires are human too. And while it's swell to assume that ALL umpires are schooled as you believe, most of those I've encountered are not exactly "professionals." You yourself say "a good ump knows..." but you can also just as easily claim that good umps don't blow calls.

And umpires do. And they know they do.

I've heard stories from umpires who were DYING to have a call appealed so they could overturn it, but couldn't because the coach wouldn't appeal.

Besides, I'm not saying that a coach should be appealing every call. Just as it is in the NFL, a coach should choose his battles, and gather whatever respect he can from blue should the moment arise when he needs to leverage it.

If the ump knows you, and knows you're not a PITA who appeals everything, then he may well consider your suggestion. That's all.

I'm not trying to stick up for all umps. Believe me, in 27 years of umpiring I've seen many terrible amateur umps. Sometimes when you get an assignment, and you see who your partner is for that day, you go "oh crap" because you know you're in for a tuff day because of his incompetence and/or bad attitude.

I was just trying to share some things with you from the umpire's perspective.

[CoachW]

Also, wanted to say that if they made the wrong ruling on a call then you must go out there and discuss it.

CoachW

[AgentX]

I was just trying to share some things with you from the umpire's perspective.

Appreciated and understood. :)

As a parent and fan, I've never been keen on seeing an MLB manager go ballistic on an umpire. But as a coach and student of the game, I can understand why they have to.

With youth baseball, I think that the same thing can be accomplished, but should only be done with respect and civility.

My $0.02

[AgentX]

Agent, I agree that if it was an obvious missed call then you need to go talk about it, but I also agree you should never ask the other umpire to over rule the call.
I apologize again for misspeaking. It must be a really exciting game!

The appeal is made to the umpire who made the call. It is up to him to confer with his associates to determine if it is correct.

Again, not suggesting that one should overstep protocol.

[skipper5]

First of all, I wasn't talking about amateur umpires. I'm talking seasoned guys.

From my standpoint, there's nothing to talk about. The ump blew a judgment call, noticeably. In a huge game. State tourney. He's got to know it. It can't be undone. The same way I inexplicably somehow nailed the curb yesterday with my right front tire and knocked the wheels out of line. Oops.

As a coach, I've got to mitigate the damage to my players' heads. I've got a game to win.

If I'd been managing the '85 Cards, they would have won the World Series.

Jim Booth and Jake, I knew what I was trying to say, but you said it better.
Jake, your prose is pithy. (O'Rielly Factor).

[TG Coach]

Let's use an example:

15u, must-win game, lose and go home for the season.

one run game, late innings, and the first base umpire calls your runner out even though a full step ahead of the throw (think Cards/KC, '85 WS)

you're the mgr. and coaching first base as well

your pre-season/pre-game speech included words (we don't sweat what we can't control)

now, as 1B coach/mgr., what are your actions?


Me? Shrug shoulders, wince, groan out loud, turn away, walk 4 steps towards fence, turn towards next batter, clap hands, "Come-on neow.."

BTW, most of the team parents think I'm out of my mind for not kicking up a storm of some sort. But I want to win. I want my darned players to turn the page.

NOTE: Respondents are forbidden from impugning my manhood. (or criticizing my choice of pocketbook)

I would try to convince him to ask another umpire for help. Never directly ask another umpire. He'll just agree with the call. If I'm not going to effect a change I'm going to work the umpire just enough to not tick him off but possible get an "owe you one" call later. Sometimes umps know they made the wrong call. How you treat them effects what you may get in return down the road.

[TG Coach]

I respectfully disagree.

I think in that situation you HAVE to at least protest the call, and get the 2nd up to either hold it ump or overrule it.

Do you mean object to the call or protest the call? The only way to protest the call is if a rule has been misinterpreted in the decision. You can't just protest a bad call.

[jbooth]

First of all, I wasn't talking about amateur umpires. I'm talking seasoned guys.

When I use the word "amateur" I'm still referring to guys at the D1 college level. An "amateur" to me is someone who does not earn 100% of his living by doing something. There are levels of expertise among amateurs. There are amateur golfers who can shoot par and there are amateurs who can't break 90.

I know PLENTY of High School varsity umps who have a lot of experience, that are simply awful (like the 95+ golfer.) I have a friend who does a lot of D1 college games and he tells me horror stories about quite a few guys he's been paired with.

The level of game being worked doesn't always reflect the level of competency of the umps on the field. Generally you don't get assigned to high level games unless you've shown that you have some competence, but it's not always the case. There is a nationwide shortage of umpires, and since most HS and College games are played during the day and most people have a day job, the number of guys available makes it hard to guarantee competence. Many of the most competent guys are working during the time HS and College games are played.

I know many guys who are volunteer, Little League umps who take the job more seriously, and do a better job than a lot of guys I've worked with at the HS Varsity level that get paid.

[TG Coach]

Umps are taught, NEVER to make "make up" calls.

They may be taught it, but a lot do it. As a coach it's my responsibility to know which umpires I can influence to get a make up call.

[TG Coach]

do a better job than a lot of guys I've worked with at the HS Varsity level that get paid.

With afternoon games, the high school umpires are 65-75 year old retired guys. The good, younger guys are only available on the weekends and the handful of night games in May. These old guys are brutal. Many of them don't keep up on the rules. Some are semi immobile. Last year I saw a base umpire ask for help on a call in the outfield. He asked the home umpire if the outfielder made the diving catch.

[tip184]

Umps are taught, NEVER to make "make up" calls.

They may be taught it, but a lot do it. As a coach it's my responsibility to know which umpires I can influence to get a make up call.

If the umpire kicks one, and you are the manager, ask for time and have your say. Then go back to the dugout and get on with the game. If you are trying to manipulate umpires or intimidate them into appealing a call, expect "no" as a one-word response, and don't expect to be in the game much longer if you continue to be a problem.

[AgentX]

Do you mean object to the call or protest the call? The only way to protest the call is if a rule has been misinterpreted in the decision. You can't just protest a bad call.
I meant "appeal." I apologized after for misspeaking.

Appeals are usually based upon whether an ump had a reasonable view of a call. They are not usually successful, but I've seen them work.

Appealing a call might make you look like a jerk if it was bang-bang, and you're going to lose the appeal. But if its a noticeably bad call, if you see the plate umpire shaking his head in disbelief, then you may have a shot at righting it.

At the very least, I think your team will appreciate you representing their case to the ump.

[TG Coach]

If the umpire kicks one, and you are the manager, ask for time and have your say. Then go back to the dugout and get on with the game. If you are trying to manipulate umpires or intimidate them into appealing a call, expect "no" as a one-word response, and don't expect to be in the game much longer if you continue to be a problem.

It appears you don't understand the difference between trying to get an umpire to change a call, which is next to impossible and carefully getting him to feel he blew one and owes a call down the road. Umpires are taught not to owe a call, but a majority will do it.

[tip184]

I meant "appeal." I apologized after for misspeaking.

Appeals are usually based upon whether an ump had a reasonable view of a call. They are not usually successful, but I've seen them work.

Appealing a call might make you look like a jerk if it was bang-bang, and you're going to lose the appeal. But if its a noticeably bad call, if you see the plate umpire shaking his head in disbelief, then you may have a shot at righting it.

At the very least, I think your team will appreciate you representing their case to the ump.

Any umpire who would show disapproval of any decision his partner makes should not be calling games period.

[tip184]

It appears you don't understand the difference between trying to get an umpire to change a call, which is next to impossible and carefully getting him to feel he blew one and owes a call down the road. Umpires are taught not to owe a call, but a majority will do it.

It's a shame that so many umpires can be persuaded into doing a make up call.