Continuous Batting Order

[Dakai]

Our local little league (11 & 12) is considering a CBO. The towns we play are split on whether they are going to do it, too.
Has anyone used the CBO? Is it really better for the kids or is it just for the parents?
My problem with it is: Say a player blows off practice occasionally. He is just home playing video games or something. When he does come to practice he is playing more grab ass then baseball. The rest of the team sees this, too. Now its game time. With a CBO he would get to bat and play the field as much as the guys who come every day and work their butts off.
Maybe I am stuck in the past, I don't know.
I would love to hear some input on it...Thanks

[Rufus67]

Dakai
Our league offers coaches the choice of CBO or using a 9-man lineup with free substitutions. There is no penalty if the kid can no longer play for any reason (typically it would be an out when you get their spot in the order if they can't continue).

Ours is a rec league so the emphasis is getting kids in the game both hitting and fielding. Maybe if you grant the coach the option of doing one or the other you would accomplish your goal?

[DerekD]

I prefer to have a continuous order for normal LL play. With this rule, we also have free substitutions. LL rules say a kid gets 6 consecutive defensive outs and an at-bat. With free subs, no kid sits in consecutive innings. If he sat the previous inning, he's in the next inning. These rules are nice when the league puts a large number of kids on a team.

[Chris O'Leary]

Our local little league (11 & 12) is considering a CBO. The towns we play are split on whether they are going to do it, too.
Has anyone used the CBO? Is it really better for the kids or is it just for the parents?
My problem with it is: Say a player blows off practice occasionally. He is just home playing video games or something. When he does come to practice he is playing more grab ass then baseball. The rest of the team sees this, too. Now its game time. With a CBO he would get to bat and play the field as much as the guys who come every day and work their butts off.
Maybe I am stuck in the past, I don't know.
I would love to hear some input on it...Thanks

We play CBO through 8th grade and I like it.

You are correct with the issue about the kid batting, but not fielding. Just because he bats as much (although I drop him to the bottom of the line-up) doesn't mean he plays as much

I will play a kid the minimum (usually 2 innings out of 7) if he doesn't show up or practice well. Also, if he doesn't show up at all, then I won't play him.

[Dakai]

Thanks for the replies. You are all making a lot of sense. I guess I will have to think a bit more about using the CBO. It does make it a lot easier for the coach to make substitutions. I thought that position play had to be equal too. If not, that does make it more appealing.
Thanks again.

D

[Chris O'Leary]

I thought that position play had to be equal too. If not, that does make it more appealing.

You're going to have to see what the minimum play times are for your league, but it's usually 2 or 3 innings in the field for a 7 inning game.

I try to keep things relatively even, but will make exceptions for my better players or if I've only got one good option for a key position like SS, C, or 1B.

Usually, everyone plays at least 1/2 of every game and a couple of guys play 60 or 75 percent of every game.

[TG Coach]

Our local little league (11 & 12) is considering a CBO. The towns we play are split on whether they are going to do it, too.
Has anyone used the CBO? Is it really better for the kids or is it just for the parents?
My problem with it is: Say a player blows off practice occasionally. He is just home playing video games or something. When he does come to practice he is playing more grab ass then baseball. The rest of the team sees this, too. Now its game time. With a CBO he would get to bat and play the field as much as the guys who come every day and work their butts off.
Maybe I am stuck in the past, I don't know.
I would love to hear some input on it...Thanks

The LL my son came from implemented CBO last year. The kids who didn't work at their game and skipped practices and games came to be on equal footing with the talented kids who work hard at their game and never miss a game or practice. Registration is down 30% this year. Guess which thirty percent left the league.

The president thinks he achieved his goal. He felt the league was too competitive. I think he was concerned the park was running out of space to put up all-star championship pennants. He's making sure they don't win anymore.

[kylebee]

I used CBO in Little League. I definitely liked it.

[Ursa Major]

For 11/12 y/o ball, a CBO is definitely the way to go. I'm sorry that TG Coach feels that it's chasing the alleged superstars into travel ball or whatever, but they're going in that direction anyway. And parent who wants to move his kid because the kid only gets to play 70% of innings rather than 90% is better off out of my league anyway.

The problem you have without a CBO is essentially that half the kids play a full game (whether they're too tired too or not) and the other half have to split a position (if you have a 12-man roster). Going through all the trouble of showing up for a 7-inning game and getting only one at-bat out of it can be demoralizing for kids (and annoying to parents). One at-bat hardly gives you a chance to get any rhythm going.

And so what if the sluggards get to bat the same number of times? Sitting on the bench for most of each game's defensive innings is a better learning tool than being passed over in the batting order. Besides, if you're too chicken as a manager to deal with the absences and screwing around head-on, than you've got a different problem. (And kids who will miss practice will likely blow off a lot of games anyway... except that they'll show up for the championship game, where you're obliged to give them full rights, of course.)

[TG Coach]

I'm sorry that TG Coach feels that it's chasing the alleged superstars into travel ball or whatever, but they're going in that direction anyway.

In our region ball is huge through age twelve. If kids play travel in the spring it's in the Sunday doubleheader leagues which doesn't interfere with rec ball. Almost everyone plays LL or Ripken. But now with the fairness gang taking over the rec programs, it's just starting to drive out the competitive players. One parent told me he never thought his son wouldn't play LL all-stars. But he couldn't see having his son play where lack of caring, passion, effort and showing up when you feel like it, gets the same reward as players who love the game and live for it.

The president of our LL wanted to drive away the talent. He didn't like the league being competitive. He got his wish. I'm very happy this all happened after my son had a great LL and LL all-star experience.

What happens to LL when it's all kids who show up when they feel like it, and shortage of players becomes a constant all season?

[Ursa Major]

TG Coach said: The president of our LL wanted to drive away the talent. He didn't like the league being competitive.I think you lost me here. I've been involved with many leagues, and I've yet to find a president who wants to "drive away talent". To be sure, they may secretly want to drive away parents who

(a) want the league to be more competitive (gotta fill that trophy case) and cutthroat and

(b) want the kids who don't "care enough" (i.e., the kids whose talent curver is a little tougher to climb and who don't get much positive feedback from coaches or fellow players at practice and thus aren't so zealous about coming out to practice) to sit on the bench so that their superstars get to play 6 of 7 innings.

Hey, I've seen many of the superstar kids (or kids whose fathers thought they were superstars) go off to travel ball, and both they and the league are better for it. My first objective as a coach is to make sure that every kid has a great experience during the season. Winning in rec ball is so far down the list that it isn't funny. Kids who want to become superstars are going to have their chance by working on the side and getting good private coaching -- an extra at-bat a game in travel ball isn't going to make any difference. But their unwillingness to cede that at-bat to a teammate who is entitled to his chance. What good is that kind of attitude doing for the personal development of Scotty Superstar?

[THop]

lol. I was voted out as President of my park in 1989 for implementing this (and free substitution) into our young fall-ball program. Both rules ended up being a huge success that year and were adopted into the playing rules for spring ball two years later by the new board- many of which voted me out (lol).

And, the park still uses both rules today!

I stopped using this when I moved on to coaching 15-19 year old ball but did invent the EH (extra hitter) and often add 2 or 3 of them at the end of my batting order in non tournament games.

THop
www.baseball-excellence.com

[baseballdad]

We use continuous batting order in the minor LL level. I wouldn't have it any other way at that age. There should be no concern about scaring away talent. LL requires a player to be in the game for 6 consecutive defensive outs for the same reason. Maybe that scares away talent too but its for the best of the team and overall player development.

[Drill]

Continuous batting Order is good. Just make sure to remember, its the team that has the best, worst hitters at the bottom of the order that usually win. Have basic batting drills for both levels to improve them. Basic stance and weight shift drill is where I would start not seeing any players at that age. We had this years ago in our LL league and when it came to tournaments we reverted to normal rules.

That is where having a Coach who knows the substitution rule comes in handy along with a good team scorer during all-stars and tournaments. Get a white board in the dug out to put the line up on so the kids don't bother the score keeper or coach. Plus when substituting all you have is mark out and change person name announcing it in the dug out to the player/players. When I helped out in keeping score I hung the line up paper or board in the dug out for all to see and sat out side but near the dug out to let the coach know where the other team was in the line up. Had someone else keep pitch count(but still kept balls and strikes and fouls in score book), as you know in LL a lot of stuff happens on the field.

Have fun,

drill

PS the only problem I had with lineup card in dug is one time, I had to yell for a time out because one of the kids changed the line up card because he thought I had put one of the top player in the wrong spot in line up and changed it.(i did change the order by 3 to 4 spot because he was hitting better) Coach and umpire came to me and other scorekeeper came over to try and figure out what happened and finally one of the kids in the dug out admitted that he though it was a mistake and changed the line up card.(the coaches kid, grin who was a good kid). I broke out in a sweat thinking I made a line up mistake. All was good and everybody learned about what would happen if you bat in the wrong order.

[Dakai]

Ursa, I deal with the screwballs easily now. They watch the game. The get to cheer on their teammates from the dugout. They don't want to play anyway, they just want to bat.
It seems under a CBO, they would be tougher to deal with "head on". It puts the manager at a disadvantage in some cases, I think.
You all had me convinced that it might work well, until the comment about blowing off the team until the championship, then getting to play...seems wrong.
The CBO may be the future for my league, I don't know. It does seem like we would need to add a quid pro quo with regards to the part time players. But I hope it works.
I know the system we have now works. My best players play most of the game because they pitch, catch and play 1st and I platoon the rest in the other positions. By the end of the year my 1-4 get about 75 plate appearances and everyone else gets 50 or so. It ain't even, but it might still be fair.

[baseballdad]

Drill: "Just make sure to remember its the team that has the best hitters at the bottom of the order usually wins."

Say what?

[Drill]

Drill: "Just make sure to remember its the team that has the best hitters at the bottom of the order usually wins."

Say what?


Sorry I do sound a little off mark there about the batting order. Its the best worst hitters at the bottom of the order that usually win.


thx,

drill

PS Have basic batting drills for both levels to improve them. Basic stance and weight shift drill is where I would start not seeing any players at that age. We had this years ago in our LL league and when it came to tournaments we reverted to normal rules.

[baseballdad]

Ahh I see says the blind man. Along that same line I have found that sticking all your worst batters at the bottom often results in a wasted at bat, so I usually have my best batters at the top of the line up and when I get to the bottom I alternate a decent hitter with a poor one so we don't get three quick outs in a row.

[Chris O'Leary]

Continuous batting Order is good. Just make sure to remember, its the team that has the best, worst hitters at the bottom of the order that usually win.

Excellent point.

What matters isn't how good your best player is. What matters is how good your worst player is.

I have used this as an opportunity to focus on improving the quality of my less skilled guys and it has paid off.

[Drill]

I have used this as an opportunity to focus on improving the quality of my less skilled guys and it has paid off.

Exactly, parents love to see a plan for everyone good or bad players, plus it shows you are working as a team and yes you can switch up the order to put kid in who has worked hard and showing that his swinging better hence a spot behind a better player. Kids are having fun and not only are they more competitive(parents included) but work harder away from the field. It fun, you can put your worst hitter at top of line up or put a better player at the bottom. It really is a lot of fun for all.


respectfully yours,

drill

[Chris O'Leary]

Exactly, parents love to see a plan for everyone good or bad players, plus it shows you are working as a team and yes you can switch up the order to put kid in who has worked hard and showing that his swinging better hence a spot behind a better player. Kids are having fun and not only are they more competitive(parents included) but work harder away from the field. It fun, you can put your worst hitter at top of line up or put a better player at the bottom. It really is a lot of fun for all.

One of my more rewarding experiences was when I was coaching the B team a few years back.

We played one pretty good team 3 times. The first time we lost something like 22-3. The second time we lost 15-8. The third time we won 10-8.

The difference from game to game was the improvement of my worst players.

[shake-n-bake]

CBO works for minors level of LL. At 11 and 12 (majors), I think it's time that the game takes on more competitiveness, both internally (competing for PT) and between teams (another incremental gain in the emphasis on Ws and Ls).

MHO is that LL is in some trouble. Rule changes like CBO that promote parity and dillute the level of play are hurting LL in relation to more competitive options for the kids with better skills.

11/12 seems like an appropriate age to start making the transition toward a game closer to the atmosphere of HS. CBO seems like the wrong direction at that age.

[Chris O'Leary]

CBO works for minors level of LL. At 11 and 12 (majors), I think it's time that the game takes on more competitiveness, both internally (competing for PT) and between teams (another incremental gain in the emphasis on Ws and Ls).

MHO is that LL is in some trouble. Rule changes like CBO that promote parity and dillute the level of play are hurting LL in relation to more competitive options for the kids with better skills.

11/12 seems like an appropriate age to start making the transition toward a game closer to the atmosphere of HS. CBO seems like the wrong direction at that age.

We play CBO in 8th grade and there's no major problem.

[shake-n-bake]

We play CBO in 8th grade and there's no major problem.

Might actually be better in 8th grade where the skill levels aren't so all over the map. Kids are trying out, making a cut, have somewhat similar ability.

Up until LL majors the competitive climate is basically "everybody wins." No problem. At some point you've got to introduce increased competition. The talent at the majors level in LL is already dilluted either by the exodus of more skilled kids to more competitive leagues or simply that some of the kids moving up from minors LL are improving at a much faster pace. CBO further dillutes it.

I'd really hate to see it introduced in our league. We don't have a travel team in our part of the city. Kids aren't leaving our LL for travel teams. My son was interested and the nearest team said no matter how good he was that they were going to take kids from their LL area first to fill one team. It could be done, but its enough of a pain in the rear that no one is taking their kids out of our LL. What I'm saying is that there's the whole spectrum of skill levels in our league. Kids that could play on extremely competitive teams right down to kids that are 12 still having minors skills, but having to be drafted into majors. It's an unfortunate, but true situation where the quality of the baseball would suffer.

I think it actually hurts the development of the players. Once again, at some point (I think 11/12 is appropriate), PT gets distributed like grades. Continuing to make an attempt to equalize PT is holding on to how things are in minors LL. I believe in giving kids more than the minimum required PT when it's practicable and that's where the #10 - #13 hitters should get those additional ABs.

[Manny A]

I think it actually hurts the development of the players.

I've heard that argument in our local league when we first implemented CBO in Majors. Those against it complained that the better players who would probably be members of the All Star teams would lose out on getting more at-bats against live pitching in game situations, and it would hurt them in the long run.

That's just not a valid argument, in my opinion. True, a kid might only get two at-bats in a game instead of three. But that only equates to about 10-15 at-bats he misses out on during the regular season. I'm just not convinced that those 10-15 at-bats make a hill of beans difference in the long run, especially when some of those at-bats would come against lower-quality pitching than they would see come tournament time anyway.

There are ample other opportunities where the better batters get in their reps. They are the ones who practice harder, probably spend more time in batting cages, have dedicated parents who pitch at them in the back yard, etc. Missing out on that one additional at-bat in a Majors game they would get if there wasn't CBO isn't going to stunt their ability.

Manny

[Jake Patterson]

I've heard that argument in our local league when we first implemented CBO in Majors. Those against it complained that the better players who would probably be members of the All Star teams would lose out on getting more at-bats against live pitching in game situations, and it would hurt them in the long run.

That's just not a valid argument, in my opinion. True, a kid might only get two at-bats in a game instead of three. But that only equates to about 10-15 at-bats he misses out on during the regular season. I'm just not convinced that those 10-15 at-bats make a hill of beans difference in the long run, especially when some of those at-bats would come against lower-quality pitching than they would see come tournament time anyway.

There are ample other opportunities where the better batters get in their reps. They are the ones who practice harder, probably spend more time in batting cages, have dedicated parents who pitch at them in the back yard, etc. Missing out on that one additional at-bat in a Majors game they would get if there wasn't CBO isn't going to stunt their ability.

Manny

Manny,
I agree...
I feel those who make the "lack of at bats" arguement are typically the parents of those players who feel their child IS the all-star player.

1 extra AB during a game gives the player 3-4 more pitches at which to look. This equates to about 60 pitches the entire season. One extra batting practice session can take care of this.

[jacksimpk]

Ursa, I deal with the screwballs easily now. They watch the game. The get to cheer on their teammates from the dugout. They don't want to play anyway, they just want to bat.
It seems under a CBO, they would be tougher to deal with "head on". It puts the manager at a disadvantage in some cases, I think.


We have a CBO league and in general minimum play will have the same effect as benching a kid. Especially if you explain to the kid and the parents that they are getitng minimum play for lack of practice etc. Now if there is a huge problem say unsportsmanlike conduct on the field compounded by refusal to apologize. All you need to do is talk to the parents. Tell them to have their son dress for the next game and sit in the stands. That he will be welcome back in the dug out for the next game. The league cannot over rule parental decisions its just that simple. Just like teaching or anything if you don't have the parents behind you your going to have a hard time. I explain this policy at the beginning of the season, I've never had to use it, and the parents have always thanked me.

As far as your heavy hitters getting more at bats.....every team in the league will be under the same rule so it shouldn't hurt you tactically. The big difference is you have to train the low end to put the ball in play. The CBO rule encourages us invest training time in the kids that need it. But hey, that's what LL is all about, that's why it exists, if you want on the edge competition where ability is king play travel ball. Public leagues and rec leagues are where kids can go and play and there is no prerequisite of skill or ability and they have their place. Travel ball has its place too. They are not nor should they be the same place.

[shake-n-bake]

I don't think it hurts the development of the better hitters. I think it hurts the lesser hitters particularly, but pretty much all players - and not just in terms of baseball.

That #13 hitter might be a heck of a swimmer or basketball player or guitar player. I don't think it hurts him to pick up the concept and learn the lesson that PT / ABs / etc. are earned. Performance is rewarded. Maybe it's frustrating for #13 in baseball, but he recognizes the opportunities in the other areas where hs's more advantaged. Maybe he even works harder at developing his baseball skills to earn PT or practices a little more coming into the season the next year.

As a coach, I'd like to see every kid be happy with their playing time. Up until majors LL that and developing skills are the about the only goals of a coach. Eventually, its unavoidable though that not everyone is going to be satisfied. Your job as a youth coach then is to keep it a team effort - everyone has something to contribute - everyone prepares for their opportunity to contribute. I think that at the 11/12 level it's possible to teach kids this.

[shake-n-bake]

If your league does have CBO, a really good way to have the kids bat is by jersey number. You can also have them sit on the bench in order of jersey number. They can sing songs and make up cheers and debate whose mom brings the best after game snacks:laugh

[Chris O'Leary]

If your league does have CBO, a really good way to have the kids bat is by jersey number. You can also have them sit on the bench in order of jersey number. They can sing songs and make up cheers and debate whose mom brings the best after game snacks:laugh

I do that for the younger kids, and have the next kid in line bat first in the next game.

For the bigger kids, I set my BO by OBP. That way I can explain to the kids (and their parents) why a kid is batting where they are.

I also drop late arrivers to the bottom of the order.

[Dakai]

Wow! you guys make some valid points. I can see how it might work. This may be a case of somebody "moving my cheese".
Shake, you crack me up. The image of the boys sitting in the dugout singing songs will keep me smiling all season long, Thanks!
By the way, my son plays minimum time. He's good, just young. This year he might get a couple more at bats then last year. He has learned more from riding the bench and earning his spot on the team then he ever would have if someone told him he was entitled to a spot. That lesson might be as important as any batting instruction he has ever received.

[scorekeeper]

I do that for the younger kids, and have the next kid in line bat first in the next game.

For the bigger kids, I set my BO by OBP. That way I can explain to the kids (and their parents) why a kid is batting where they are.

I also drop late arrivers to the bottom of the order.

The only thing I have any disagreement with at all is, if you’re gonna use just one stat, I’d prefer to see the order set by their Reached Base Average rather than OBP. To me it takes much more into account.

[shake-n-bake]

Dakai, that's why I quit managing my son's teams. I'll coach, scorekeep, and help out wherever I can, but I had a tendency to rear end my son when it came to playing time. I feel bad about the times I'd sit down with him and explain how he wasn't starting because he was younger than the other kids and it keeps the other parents quiet.

Then one of the whiniest of parents was a league official in a basketball league my son was in. He put in all sorts of special rules to handicap his size. So, I'm not necessarily a huge fan of the level playing field. Hence, a lot of my feelings on the batting order thing.

[scorekeeper]

…He has learned more from riding the bench and earning his spot on the team then he ever would have if someone told him he was entitled to a spot. That lesson might be as important as any batting instruction he has ever received.

Actually, you have no clue as to whether or not he learned more from riding the bench. I’m not saying that philosophy is wrong, but there’s really no way to know for sure.

Just maybe learning the lesson of fighting and clawing to beat out the other players as though there were some kind of life and death struggle going on isn’t the best lesson to learn either. Which lesson do you suppose those fine folks who ended up being CEOs of large banks and Wall Street firms, or perhaps the fine folks who bilked gullible people out of billions learned? :confused:

[shake-n-bake]

Actually, you have no clue as to whether or not he learned more from riding the bench. I’m not saying that philosophy is wrong, but there’s really no way to know for sure.

Just maybe learning the lesson of fighting and clawing to beat out the other players as though there were some kind of life and death struggle going on isn’t the best lesson to learn either. Which lesson do you suppose those fine folks who ended up being CEOs of large banks and Wall Street firms, or perhaps the fine folks who bilked gullible people out of billions learned? :confused:

Interesting question. Huh. I wonder which lesson Barrack Obama, Mary Lou Retton, and Joe Montana learned?

[TG Coach]

CBO works for minors level of LL. At 11 and 12 (majors), I think it's time that the game takes on more competitiveness, both internally (competing for PT) and between teams (another incremental gain in the emphasis on Ws and Ls).

MHO is that LL is in some trouble. Rule changes like CBO that promote parity and dillute the level of play are hurting LL in relation to more competitive options for the kids with better skills.

11/12 seems like an appropriate age to start making the transition toward a game closer to the atmosphere of HS. CBO seems like the wrong direction at that age.

First, I'm pro LL. But given the direction of some LL's I can see a day when the American teams making the LLWS aren't very good. The talent will have left for other forms of 12U baseball.

By the way, does a kid who strikes out once a game have more fun striking out two or three times a game?

[TG Coach]

We play CBO in 8th grade and there's no major problem.


When our middle school baseball announced they were going CBO with eighteen players all the good players signed up for lacrosse. The high school varsity coach intervened explaining what this would do to the high school program. My son would have played school lacrosse. I would have started up the travel team in April instead of late May. The coach's concern was losing some good athletes to lacrosse heading into high school.

[TG Coach]

.......................

[TG Coach]

If your league does have CBO, a really good way to have the kids bat is by jersey number. You can also have them sit on the bench in order of jersey number. They can sing songs and make up cheers and debate whose mom brings the best after game snacks:laugh

Kum bay ah my lord, Kum bay ah! :)

[TG Coach]

I should have quit baseball based on my first year LL experience. I played about ten of eighteen games. I got about ten plate appearances and fifteen innings in the field. I thought it was an honor to just have earned the hat. Not everyone made LL. I wore the hat everywhere. I guess it was just a different era before we pussified kids by handing them everything without working for it.

[Chris O'Leary]

When our middle school baseball announced they were going CBO with eighteen players all the good players signed up for lacrosse. The high school varsity coach intervened explaining what this would do to the high school program. My son would have played school lacrosse. I would have started up the travel team in April instead of late May. The coach's concern was losing some good athletes to lacrosse heading into high school.

We were in that situation last year and came up with a plan where only 14 or 15 guys would play each game and everyone would sit a couple of games due to vacations, etc.

It worked out pretty well, given that most people will miss two games anyway.

[Jake Patterson]

Actually, you have no clue as to whether or not he learned more from riding the bench. I’m not saying that philosophy is wrong, but there’s really no way to know for sure. I agree. Having been at it long enough to have had the privilege of coaching WITH my son and other former players, I found that what we teach and the associated player lessons learned, sometimes don't click for years.

[Ursa Major]

Scorekeeper said: Just maybe learning the lesson of fighting and clawing to beat out the other players as though there were some kind of life and death struggle going on isn’t the best lesson to learn either. Which lesson do you suppose those fine folks who ended up being CEOs of large banks and Wall Street firms, or perhaps the fine folks who bilked gullible people out of billions learned?Dang, Scorekeep, you sound like me and my Berkeley neighbors. :clapping Good on ya! I'd rather kids learned teamwork right now; they'll get the cutthroat part when they end up with TG Coach as their first boss... or when they try out for their high school teams.

TG Coach and I both played in times of being guaranteed nothing, but we stuck with it because we loved baseball. But not all kids have -- or should have -- that devotion at the age of 11. When Ursa Minor was 11, he was the youngest kids (he missed the age cutoff by three days) in the league and one of the smallest. He had three hits and one RBI all season long, but he made contact and kept plugging, even though he got the bare minimum of field time (three innings) each game. If he had been limited to one at-bat every game, he never would have improved and never would have stayed in the game until his late developing body finally caught up with his peers. Why don't the desires of those kids to stay in the game count as much?

[Dakai]

I agree that I have no way of knowing for sure right now. My example of my own son wasn't to illustrate what lessons he may have learned. It was to say that his lack of playing time hasn't diminished his love of baseball. He appreciates the game and getting to play is a thrill. Anyone who sees him can easily see that.
I hope that I do not seem argumentative about this. I appreciate your input about the CBO. I just haven't heard one valid argument for it. Nobody has spoke of a kid that has turned out to be a better player from it. As Jake said, it is only a matter of a few more at bats a year,so does it really help the kid? Is this a better way to train or is it political cover from the mothers who paid their $50 so they want to see their kid out there?

Mozart's father truly believed that his son was a gift from God. This drove him to force his child prodigy to perform all over Europe. His thinking was that people should see that God is still making miracles and his son was one of them. Mozart lived a tortured life and had an early death...
Got to love parents!

[TG Coach]

they'll get the cutthroat part when they end up with TG Coach as their first boss

I'll take this as a compliment. I would never allow someone to lack passion for the job, operate at less then 100%, fail and continue to work for me. I like Jack Welch's philosophy on firing people (paraphrasing), "I'm helping them to move on to something where they might succeed."

I was nine in majors when I didn't play much. It was just as well. Some of the twelve year olds scared the crap out of me. This was back when LL teams were five 12's, five 11's and five 10's. If a nine year old was good enough to make a team they counted as a ten.

[coach scotty]

I think much confusion in trying to argue the benefit or lack there of, of rules like these is the assumption it was a rule made or created for the kids. Some have argued that it is to help the lower end kids, others to punish the upper level kids. I would say neither is true. Rules like CBO are generally created to prevent jackass caches from being, well jackasses. Most of the people on a board like this won't relate to that because coaches that would take the time to come to a board like this care. They care about learning or teaching and although they may disagree about strategies or finger placement or things of this nature most would all have the best interest of ALL there players in mind.

I don't know the man so I can't say for sure but I would imagine when TG is coaching a team and has players that hasn't earned the right to more playing time that he is more than happy to work with and push said player to get to where he needs to be. That is not the coach this rule was designed for. It was designed for the lazy worthless coach that just plays the best players regardless of effort or any other factor. Then just completely ignores those of lessor skills hoping they will quit. Rules like CBO were created to force that type of coach to get off his lazy butt and COACH.

I would IMO say most all of these type rules in most all youth sports are created and designed to restrict the abuses of poor coaching more so than anything else. I think sometimes we forget just how much God awful coaching there is out there in youth sports.

And by the way, NO all of these minimum play and so called "socialist" rules are not what is hurting youth base ball, in particular rec baseball. Youth football has had minimum play rules much longer than baseball and it hasn't hurt that sport at all. It this elitist "my child is too good for that crap" attitude that baseball parents seem to have for some reason that is creating the problems. The problem is not created by letting little johnny 7 year old have an extra at bat.

[TG Coach]

I don't know the man so I can't say for sure but I would imagine when TG is coaching a team and has players that hasn't earned the right to more playing time that he is more than happy to work with and push said player to get to where he needs to be. That is not the coach this rule was designed for. It was designed for the lazy worthless coach that just plays the best players regardless of effort or any other factor. Then just completely ignores those of lessor skills hoping they will quit. Rules like CBO were created to force that type of coach to get off his lazy butt and COACH

Thank you. I think that was a compliment. I held optional practices to help less talented players. Everyone on my team who made the practices and games, and practiced hard to improve played at least half the game. With twelve players it meant six played the game and six split the game. If one of the first six was late for pregame they didn't start and only got three innings. It didn't happen often. In one sided games some of the second sixx might play the entire game with some of the first six sitting out. The one kid who made no effort to make practices and showed up late for games got MPT. One year the team clinched first with four games to go. The second six started the last four games. So even the second six started twelve or thirteen of twenty-one games. There were coaches who would play seven all the time, one four innings and four MPT.

There are lazy coaches who cause problems with CBO. The Ripken league my son played in at nine and ten had CBO. The weak players with hard nose coaches would quit by midseason. That created a huge advantage when one team is batting ten players and the opposing team has two more likely outs at the bottom of the lineup. Aside from the outs, the better hitters won't come to the plate as often as the other team's better hitters. Both years teams with coaches who drove away weak players won the championship. We found out after the fact one coach emailed parents of three kids telling them their kids did not play at a level where they would be safe and suggested they quit. Along with his trophy he received a lifetime ban from the entire youth sports organization (all sports).

[coach scotty]

Thank you. I think that was a compliment.

It was.

There are lazy coaches who cause problems with CBO. The Ripken league my son played in at nine and ten had CBO. The weak players with hard nose coaches would quit by midseason. That created a huge advantage when one team is batting ten players and the opposing team has two more likely outs at the bottom of the lineup. Aside from the outs, the better hitters won't come to the plate as often as the other team's better hitters. Both years teams with coaches who drove away weak players won the championship. We found out after the fact one coach emailed parents of three kids telling them their kids did not play at a level where they would be safe and suggested they quit. Along with his trophy he received a lifetime ban from the entire youth sports organization (all sports).

Which is why rules like these become a waste of time. Those type of coaches always seem to find away. :cry:

[Jake Patterson]

Scott, good post....

[shake-n-bake]

I agree that I have no way of knowing for sure right now. My example of my own son wasn't to illustrate what lessons he may have learned. It was to say that his lack of playing time hasn't diminished his love of baseball. He appreciates the game and getting to play is a thrill. Anyone who sees him can easily see that.
I hope that I do not seem argumentative about this. I appreciate your input about the CBO. I just haven't heard one valid argument for it. Nobody has spoke of a kid that has turned out to be a better player from it. As Jake said, it is only a matter of a few more at bats a year,so does it really help the kid? Is this a better way to train or is it political cover from the mothers who paid their $50 so they want to see their kid out there?

Mozart's father truly believed that his son was a gift from God. This drove him to force his child prodigy to perform all over Europe. His thinking was that people should see that God is still making miracles and his son was one of them. Mozart lived a tortured life and had an early death...
Got to love parents!

Dakai, your son's patience and attitude are great qualities. My son had that when he played up and it has served him well so far. Be careful though not to take advantage of it is what I was saying. It's easy to do. You've got this great kid who's really understanding about sitting out and maybe other kids (and parents) in your ear about how much and where they should be playing. I was concerned about being percieved as one of those coaches that plays favorites, so my son had to earn the heck out of his PT. Looking back, I felt some regret about my allegiances because that's not how we roll.

[Dakai]

Thanks shake, I will do my best.

[jcwilb]

For the bigger kids, I set my BO by OBP. That way I can explain to the kids (and their parents) why a kid is batting where they are.


Really OPB? I hope you mean from viewing the ability to have productive at bats, and not truly the OBP statistic. How many at bats are you judging this on? Our LL season gives a kid about 45-50 plate appearances. Ever heard of sample size?

[Chris O'Leary]

Really OPB? I hope you mean from viewing the ability to have productive at bats, and not truly the OBP statistic. How many at bats are you judging this on? Our LL season gives a kid about 45-50 plate appearances. Ever heard of sample size?

Yes, I use the straight statistic.

For example, I count BBs and HBPs as much as hits. However, I do tweak things a bit based on SLG. I will put a few high OBP guys in front of a high SLG guy.

It's better than just pulling a BO out of your %7@ which is what many (most?) coaches do.

This way I can tell kids and their parents exactly why they are batting where they are. It also gives them some control over where they hit in the order and the ability to improve their place in the order.

[shake-n-bake]

Scotty, that's a good point about where the roots of these rules originate. I don't necessarily agree though that this rule is specifically aimed at taking the overzealous coach out of the mix. In the hierarchy of the decision making tree is protecting the kids, but there's a lot of emphasis on parity too.

It seems that they want each kid to get a standard experience out of LL. Much like you going to the McDonalds close to your work and the one on the way home from your vacation and they're basically the same. I see some youth sports parents increasingly demanding that as well. And, I think the rules are going to reflect that. The parents are after all the one's cutting the check and are the customer.

At some point the training wheels have to come off though. I think that 11/12 majors is an appropriate time to move to a more competitive game. Without getting into who wants it more, there are a lot of kids and parents at that age that are weary of "everybody wins" and want competition. Sure most could move to another league where that exists, but where does that leave LL?

[jcwilb]

Yes, I use the straight statistic.

For example, I count BBs and HBPs as much as hits. However, I do tweak things a bit based on SLG. I will put a few high OBP guys in front of a high SLG guy.

It's better than just pulling a BO out of your %7@ which is what many (most?) coaches do.

This way I can tell kids and their parents exactly why they are batting where they are. It also gives them some control over where they hit in the order and the ability to improve their place in the order.

Don't get me wrong...I never said I used avg. either, but this is LL not Moneyball. What age kids are you coaching?

It would serve you better to track QAB quality at bats rather that OPB in LL. Did the kid have the right approach? Did he hit the ball hard? Did he swing at strikes?

There is no way possible to have any valid numbers until late in the season and I would even question it then.

[shake-n-bake]

It's better than just pulling a BO out of your %7@ which is what many (most?) coaches do.

I'm way more likely to do that than track kids' stats. I don't even track my own kid's stats. I don't even think you really need to chart quality ABs. You'll learn plenty about your players' hitting tendencies without actually finding the perfect statistic. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if it turned out that playing a hunch about what certain kids will do is statistically a far better predictor than any game stat(s).

I don't like the idea of feeling some type of obligation to justify what you're doing to the parents.

[scorekeeper]

Interesting question. Huh. I wonder which lesson Barrack Obama, Mary Lou Retton, and Joe Montana learned?

Now comes the real question. Does all the good/positives folks like BO, MLR, and JM did/do outweigh all the bad/negatives the other folks did/do? ;)

[Chris O'Leary]

Don't get me wrong...I never said I used avg. either, but this is LL not Moneyball. What age kids are you coaching?

8th grade and 3rd grade.

8th grade I set BO by OBP.

3rd grade I set BO by jersey number.


It would serve you better to track QAB quality at bats rather that OPB in LL. Did the kid have the right approach? Did he hit the ball hard? Did he swing at strikes?

That's definitely an interesting idea.

However, my way is easier to defend because it's more objective than subjective.

But I'll definitely think about your approach.


There is no way possible to have any valid numbers until late in the season and I would even question it then.

Your way certainly is better early on in the season.

Also, I tend to base the next game's BO on what happened in the previous game, with some seasonal trends to break ties, not the whole season.

[Chris O'Leary]

It's better than just pulling a BO out of your %7@ which is what many (most?) coaches do.

I'm way more likely to do that than track kids' stats. I don't even track my own kid's stats. I don't even think you really need to chart quality ABs. You'll learn plenty about your players' hitting tendencies without actually finding the perfect statistic. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if it turned out that playing a hunch about what certain kids will do is statistically a far better predictor than any game stat(s).

I don't like the idea of feeling some type of obligation to justify what you're doing to the parents.

It drives me crazy when guys go based on what their gut says because, if you look at the stats, quite often their gut is wrong.

I am sensitive to this because my older son's HC does this and tends to make some BO decisions that simply don't make sense if you look at even basic stats.

[ralanprod]

Yes, I use the straight statistic.

For example, I count BBs and HBPs as much as hits. However, I do tweak things a bit based on SLG. I will put a few high OBP guys in front of a high SLG guy.

It's better than just pulling a BO out of your %7@ which is what many (most?) coaches do.

This way I can tell kids and their parents exactly why they are batting where they are. It also gives them some control over where they hit in the order and the ability to improve their place in the order.

I don't know Chris, like it's been said you're dealing with a real small sample size to make that type of decision with statistics.

In our first three games this season my clean-up batter has only one hit. However, three of his outs were on balls that went about 200 feet on a 205 foot field. A couple others were on liners that were hit right at infielders. He's got the worst OBP on the team.

Should I bat him behind my 11th batter, who has been HPB twice and walked once - but hasn't come close to hitting a ball yet?

OBP would say so, but sometimes stats don't tell the whole story.

[shake-n-bake]

What do you do with the hitter that bats for low avg. / low OBP, but creams the ball when he does hit it? What about speed and where you want to place it in the BO? I mean there's a lot of variables that are either not quantitative or a bit complex to make sense of for a youth league (even with lots of ABs to establish a pattern).

Even after your through compiling the statistics, is there not some subjective way of incorporating them into a strategy in terms of BO?

Also, I tend to base the next game's BO on what happened in the previous game, with some seasonal trends to break ties, not the whole season.

What happened in a single game against who knows who pitching is a better representation of what'll happen in the future than what you've seen in practice?

[scorekeeper]

…It would serve you better to track QAB quality at bats rather that OPB in LL. Did the kid have the right approach? Did he hit the ball hard? Did he swing at strikes?

Please define a QAB, and who is going to make that decision. Sorry, but from what I see, that’s more subjective than BA.

There is no way possible to have any valid numbers until late in the season and I would even question it then.

That isn’t true! There might not be valid numbers because the scorer or the coach don’t understand the scoring rules, but not because of sample size. Stats are nothing but a snapshot in time, so it doesn’t make any difference what time that snapshot encompasses. More samples will refine the output and make it more reliable, but not make it more valid.

[jcwilb]

Please define a QAB, and who is going to make that decision. Sorry, but from what I see, that’s more subjective than BA.



That isn’t true! There might not be valid numbers because the scorer or the coach don’t understand the scoring rules, but not because of sample size. Stats are nothing but a snapshot in time, so it doesn’t make any difference what time that snapshot encompasses. More samples will refine the output and make it more reliable, but not make it more valid.

Where would this kid hit in your lineup?

AB-95, R-13, H-16, RBI-12, BB-18, K-27, AVG-.168, OBP-.298

[scorekeeper]

Where would this kid hit in your lineup?

AB-95, R-13, H-16, RBI-12, BB-18, K-27, AVG-.168, OBP-.298

If you’re asking about the team I currently work for, and where that kid would bat, I don’t know. That isn’t enough information for me.

How many PA’s did he have? How many times did he ROE? How many total bases did he have? How did he perform against teams with both good and bad records? How many times did he K with RISP? How many times did he K looking? How did he do in different batting positions? How did he do moving runners up? How were his BPO’s?

I’m not trying to be a wise a$$ here either. People who know me well at all, know I track all that stuff and more.

Heck, I’ve had the computer figuring out lineups using different stats for years, just to try to eliminate as much subjective stuff as possible, and get different looks at the players. I’ve attached just 3 of them using data from this preseason. The one that seems to work out closest to what actually happens over the years is the bases per out lineup.

[jcwilb]

If you’re asking about the team I currently work for, and where that kid would bat, I don’t know. That isn’t enough information for me.

How many PA’s did he have? How many times did he ROE? How many total bases did he have? How did he perform against teams with both good and bad records? How many times did he K with RISP? How many times did he K looking? How did he do in different batting positions? How did he do moving runners up? How were his BPO’s?

I’m not trying to be a wise a$$ here either. People who know me well at all, know I track all that stuff and more.

Heck, I’ve had the computer figuring out lineups using different stats for years, just to try to eliminate as much subjective stuff as possible, and get different looks at the players. I’ve attached just 3 of them using data from this preseason. The one that seems to work out closest to what actually happens over the years is the bases per out lineup.

Well lets just say thank goodness Coach Charlie doesn't use a computer to figure out his lineups. It's also a good thing that Ryan didn't get moved from his spot in the lineup, because then Coach Charlie would have to talk to Mr. and Mrs. Howard about the reason their son isn't hitting cleanup anymore.

Oh, by the way, little Ryan won the World Series and was runner up in the NL MVP vote. Those are his stats for April.

Sample size doesn't matter my a$$.....and you are setting lineups using stats from the kids first 10 AB's of the season. I am speechless. .:crazy

[Ursa Major]

Chris, I wouldn't adjust the lineup from one game's experience. You get kids too caught up in their micro-successes. I tell parents,

"We'll set a batting order after a few games and pretty much stick with it. I'm open to discussing just about anything with you parents but am against negotiations over batting positions because it's a zero sum game -- if your kid is to move up in the order that means some other kid moves down, and what am I to say to him if he's doing okay but just not as well as your kid? And maybe I want your kid in a spot because he's can juice up a part of the lineup that might otherwise be a dead spot. Or maybe he's a good runner and I want him to set the table for our leadoff guys. So please don't get caught up in batting order position."

When Ursa Minor was little and hated to swing unless he had to, he was stuck at the bottom of the CBO and still ended up with close to a .400 OBP because he led the team in walks. And the lead-off hitter had a lot of gap power, so he scored a lot of runs. As his hitting improved, he moved up to 7th or 8th in a 12-man CBO, and just died on the bases as the weak hitters came up behind him. I think he preferred scenario #1. Even so, I would not over-reward kids who have a high OBP because they're too passive at the plate.

[coach scotty]

On another board they were discussing CBO and the argument was much more heated about appropriate competitiveness. This discussion seems to have veered of that but I though I would post this here as well.

I was reading an article by Obie Evans the director of Dixie Softball and he made an interesting statement about this type of argument over what the level of competitiveness of rec sports should be. I am not saying I agree or disagree I just found it interesting. I am just paraphrasing and not quoting this.

Dixie Softball (rec ball) is about PARTICIPATION not perfection. We care about a CHILD getting to play the sport not the child playing the sport to be great.

The way I take it basically he was saying rec ball is about a child playing a fun sport and not about that child's future as a pro athlete. It's not about culling the hear but about PLAYING.

Since I believe he was one of the founders if not the founder of Dixie Softball. I think his opinion of what the league should be about is pretty relevant. It's not some whiny parent or some hippy tree hugger or some travel coach wanting your money but the guy that started this rec league.

Now I admit I fall more on the competitive side of the fence but this is still a good point.

[coach scotty]

As far a setting the BO goes I have a lot of problems with this. I see all sides of the argument and think they are all valid. I have a problem with leaving a kid at the bottom of the order that is out performing the top of the order BUT I also have a problem moving my 3 hole guy who's hitting line drives at the short stop behind a kid hitting bloop singles. This is something I have an internal struggle with every time I fill out a line up card.

As for the Ryan Howard example I would say if not in the MLB where the players pay check determines playing time then yes I would have dropped him in the order if not to the bench with those numbers. Then again we are talking about rec ball 15 game seasons by that point the season would be over and you just let the worst batter on the team bat at the top of the order all year. Heck he would even make all-star. :laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh

[jcwilb]

As for the Ryan Howard example I would say if not in the MLB where the players pay check determines playing time then yes I would have dropped him in the order if not to the bench with those numbers.

Are you serious? ROY, MVP, All-Star Ryan Howard is not in the lineup because of his contract...He is in the lineup because he is the best hitter at the ballpark every day he shows up to play. What I am pointing out here is anyone can struggle for 10, 20, 50 or 100 plate appearances. If the best fail 70% of the time then they will go through stretches like this.

Sabermetrics are great when you have months and seasons of data, but Little League???

Chris, Score, Scotty....Bill James would even think you are silly.

[scorekeeper]

… Sample size doesn't matter my a$$.....and you are setting lineups using stats from the kids first 10 AB's of the season. I am speechless. .:crazy

Just because you don’t understand why sample size doesn’t matter, why get angry?

Who said I was setting lineups using stats? READ WHAT WAS WRITTEN!

…Heck, I’ve had the computer figuring out lineups using different stats for years, just to try to eliminate as much subjective stuff as possible, and get different looks at the players. …

Did it say in there that those lineups were used in games? You’d be surprised at how often those things prompted a change in thinking though.

[coach scotty]

Are you serious? ROY, MVP, All-Star Ryan Howard is not in the lineup because of his contract...He is in the lineup because he is the best hitter at the ballpark every day he shows up to play. What I am pointing out here is anyone can struggle for 10, 20, 50 or 100 plate appearances. If the best fail 70% of the time then they will go through stretches like this.

Sabermetrics are great when you have months and seasons of data, but Little League???

Chris, Score, Scotty....Bill James would even think you are silly.

First if he was some no name rookie do you think he would have been given the same chance? Your right we are talking about a big star which is my point.

Second I thought this topic was about youth players not pros a 100 at bat slump is two full seasons of sucking in rec ball.

I'm not saying I would worry about those number in an all star professional but I would in a 12 year old. WHICH IS WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT

[Dakai]

[QUOTE=Ursa Major;1441694]

When Ursa Minor was little and hated to swing unless he had to, he was stuck at the bottom of the CBO and still ended up with close to a .400 OBP because he led the team in walks. And the lead-off hitter had a lot of gap power, so he scored a lot of runs. As his hitting improved, he moved up to 7th or 8th in a 12-man CBO, and just died on the bases as the weak hitters came up behind him. I think he preferred scenario #1.

So- its seems to me the better hitters would be 1-3 and 9-12. That would make sense, but leave the middle weak. Could a "sprinkle" method work? Like hitter, hitter, K, hitter , hitter, out, hitter, hitter, etc.

By the way, Ryan Howard isn't involved in rec ball, and his coach does not use a CBO...Now that was some serious thread drift!!!

[scorekeeper]

So- its seems to me the better hitters would be 1-3 and 9-12. That would make sense, but leave the middle weak. Could a "sprinkle" method work? Like hitter, hitter, K, hitter , hitter, out, hitter, hitter, etc.

You’ve allowed the thread to morph, and that’s ok, but in order to get good answers, you have to remember what the question was. Your original question was about CBO, but now its drifted into how to set a lineup.

I think you’re asking good questions, but unless you start tracking things, all you’ll ever have is a GUESS or FEELING. The different philosophies have to be tested or you’ll never know.

Set your lineup using one philosophy the 1st half, then change that philosophy for the 2nd half, then compare. But everything depends on how to measure a method WORKING. Wins could be the gauge, but IMHO run production would be a better way. But maybe you want to use BA, OBP, OPS, or something else.

I’m lucky in that I enter my stats with batting position being a part of the record so I can pull data back out that way to see how the players are performing, but not everyone does that, and I understand. But if they did, I believe a lot of these kinds of questions would have a better chance of being more accurately answered.

A basic stat that might help you at your level might be something like the attached. At least you’d be able to see what was going on before even trying to make any changes. All you’d need to do is go through the book to get that data, and you'd find out how the method you're using is working.

[Dakai]

Thats a cool stat SC, I might give it a try. I use BA and OBP and the blind faith method now. Our league lacks a good scorekeeper to track anything more than hits, HR's and k's.

[scorekeeper]

Thats a cool stat SC, I might give it a try. I use BA and OBP and the blind faith method now. Our league lacks a good scorekeeper to track anything more than hits, HR's and k's.

Don’t depend on the league to supply SK’s. Get your own. At least one parent should have some clue about how to keep score, and if not, you should surely be able to find someone you can train to do the basics for you.

If you’ve never worked with Bases per Out, take a look at it. I’ve found it to be a great stat, plus its easy to compute for both pitchers and hitters. For the hitters, be sure to compute it using reached on errors.